Jonathan and Matthieu, This was a great video-- please continue these! I am eagerly anticipating your book, Matthieu. Question: you mentioned in another post on this thread (of which I can't find at the moment) that you didn't have any books to recommend about this approach to symbolism and that this was in large part the reason you are writing your book. However, you apparently have quite a sophisticated and seemingly valid framework for interpretation. What influences have you had that have led you to this framework? Is this a framework that you have come up with largely on your own based on a careful encounter with the material? Or are there techniques/perspectives here you've learned elsewhere?! "Traditional cosmology"-- is there anywhere I could find more about this?
Mattieu discovered Rene Guenon and then shared his work with Jonathon; they viewed it as just what they'd been searching for for so long in terms of someone with a deep grasp of symbolism.
Tolkien's "Mythopoeia" is exactly about this. It's a poem that he wrote to C.S. Lewis before Lewis had become a Christian. Lewis had an intuitive sense that there was a deeper truth playing out in all of the "facts" around him. Tolkien wrote the poem to say "YES - you're exactly correct!"
My mother in law grew up way out in the country in southern Mexico. She never went to school or learned to read. She speaks mostly using parables and symbolic language. She’s very intelligent and can interpret dreams and knows many things about the natural world. Great talk I really enjoyed it!
This video answers so many questions for me. Coming to Christianity through learning from people like Peterson and yourself, I’ve run into a few literal-vs.-symbolic rough spots in attending a local protestant church, and I couldn’t put my finger on the issue. I appreciate the church, and plan to continue attending, but I’m glad to have this understanding as I move forward. Thanks Jonathan and Matthieu!
It's like you wrote my story. I too came to Pageau via Peterson. I too have struggled to find a church that fits since coming to Christ on June 20 2020. So many questions answered with this video.
Hi Cord. Have you looked into Eastern Orthodoxy? Much of the teachings and approach to interpreting Scripture comes from a more symbolic understanding, and can be seen in many of the Church Fathers where it seems much of the religion of the West has lost touch with this due to the influence of materialism.
@@DeonDSilva I ran into the trouble of finding a church as well. If you know of an Orthodox Church in your area, I'd encourage you to attend and set up time to speak with the priest about the differences between Eastern and Western Christianity.
I am so grateful for these men's work. I have been exploring Orthodoxy, and have been experiencing shifting from a secular, materialist worldview into one where I can read and appreciate the bible. This idea of symbolism has effectively unlocked the door for me.
The discussion about the different lenses which Atheists and what Matthieu calls "materialists who don't know it yet" type of religious folk use was very elucidating. After watching a lot of Harris and Peterson, it clears up where the arguments go astray. Religion isn't for material understanding it's for experiential or phenomenological understanding. I have long thought that the opposition between science and religion was naively tribal and fundamentally missed the point of both religion and science. Great discussion, looking forward to your book Matthieu, and more channel content Jonathan.
In case you are still seeking feedback four years later, the pace of this conversation was perfect for me. Lived in jordan petersons work for like a year and the last month or so in yours jonathan. Thanks for what you are doing. Its really helping me sort some things out.
This is a hidden gem of you tube. I'm very grateful and feel lucky to have discovered Jonathan. My whole life I struggled to make sense of things. I studied philosophy and art and literature but always left I had a huge chunk of the puzzle missing and I finally feel like I arrived in the place that can take me on right path and I feel much more sane. Tank you and God bless you!
Speaking of the transformation of language overtime, y’all are some revolutionary thinkers. This is one of the most important conversations on the internet. Period. When does the book come out? I’m buying for sure.
That's what i thought. How come this is at only 60 k views? If I even begin to comprehend what they are talking about I would be able to experience another reality through a very powerful point of view. Even a minor increase in the ability to See Symbolically would be transformational.
Three months after I first watched this video and many attempts at the book i finally got the shift in perspective from material to symbolic tonight. It sounded like so much gibberish but i kept listening to this talk again and again.
I loved hearing you mention the horizontal perception of reality. I just finished reading Stratford Caldecott's "Beauty for Truth's Sake" and before that his "Beauty in the Word". In both books he talks about the importance of understanding that there are both horizontal AND vertical dimensions of reality. It reminds me of how Fr. Stephen Freeman has written about how the place where we meet Christ is on the cross; he says often that the way down is the way up. And on the cross is exaclty where the vertical and horizontal intersect. Love the imagery!
I liked this the first time and thought I got it, but I keep coming back to this video and finding the things you talk about make sense more and more every time.
Never talk alone to each other about symbolism again. Please include us! I would love for you guys to delve into the actual symbols like a snake = time etc. Thanks!!
Jonathan Pageau Thank you, can't wait. I have also started to become very interested in Orthodox thanks to your videos. Orthodox is probability as close as one can find to something authentic and unadulterated by modern leftist bs.
The snake is symbolic of change, which is what the ancient understanding of 'time' meant, as time is not a 'force' but a human construct so now in our modern understanding 'times' perceived as a ticking clock.
Check out Santos Bonacci on UA-cam, MrAstrotheology. He knows. His info will also blow your mind. He understands the symbology and I think the snake is the sine wave but I could be wrong. The snake coiled around the pole, the tree, a staff I believe represents a sine wave and zero point. It’s been a while since I’ve caught up with Santos but he knows his stuff. I also recommend reading about sacred geometry. Many sources are good for seekers. Good luck on your quest for knowledge!!!
@johnathanpageau I grasp what you are saying and I am an "uneducated" man( no letters) . My first introduction to you was your Jordan Peterson debut on THE SYMBOLIC WORLD. That blew my mind. I see it. It is the same thing happening all at once all the time over and over above and below, inside and out. Thinking along these lines has opened up gateways of thought and added depth to my life. Thank you brother 🙏
I myself have drunk thousands of varieties of "H20". No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man - Heraclitus
well, water IS the universal solvent! and it's 'most likely' the medium life started in. A good way for a hero to be reborn, i suppose it's related to the baptism in the same sense
Wow! Amazing. I’ve always thought that there was something more to the bible - because it is cryptic to me. Been raised Roman Catholic and now at 50 yrs old, finally an explanation that’s easy to digest. I am amazed and want to learn more. The ‘gun’ example, the fish/whale conundrum, and the mowing of the grass and the H2O that we drink - finally drove it home to me. Thank you very much.
What came to my heart as i read your comment...Mark Chater 4 ..10¶And when he (Jesus) was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12so that “they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.” Most will not understand the bible, it's spiritually decearned, meaning: a person must have the Holy Spirit living inside to be able to receive the intended God given, revelation Truth the way God wants it I interpreted. Outside of God's way is man's fallible insight and errored interpretations/biases that go on to deceive the masses that choose to rely on man, opposed to seeking God through His word and being lead by the Holy Spirit who is our helper that leads into ALL Truth.
Very interesting talk, thank you. In a very simple way, I see symbolism as a way to compress information using commonly associated forms. A way to do that before writing, when recording and communicating something took a great deal of effort... therefore we evolved a method of conveying complex meaning through the combination of forms each representing concepts or entire bodies of knowledge. The common association is a very important factor which, due to our changing culture and craft or technology, can render old symbolism completely detached from their original meanings. Fire is a classic example, once it was a part of everyone's daily lives and so a symbol conveying fire was immediately clear to everyone as an essential for survival, comfort, community... and life itself, so the idea of the eternal flame was immediately meaningful - today however, even that basic thing, fire, is an abstract concept to many people and so something like "the eternal flame" has to be explained intellectually.
This in my opinion is an absolutely crucial conversation for the culture war and dichotomy of thought. Going to share as far and wide as I can. Thank you for articulating and crystalizing these contrasted ways of thinking and harmonizing them. This is the great work. Keep it up! Wow!
I watched this video 4 months ago around Christmas and didnt fully understand but intuited that they were onto something. 4 months later after watching many of Jonathan's videos I realise that I was a materialist the first time that I watched this video. Am really starting to get it now. I am beginning to see the world through the conscious lens of meaning and purpose. Many thanks Pageau boys!
When Jonathan mentioned the aspect of drinking water not being a simple consumption of H2O I immediately thought of Doctor Emotos work on water being able to hold emotions and vibrations. This is also why you should say grace or bless the things you consume as food and drink. One reason is a show of gratitude but the other is to transmute existing frequencies into their highest possible vibe before you fully incorporate it into your being. This also has scientific foundation if that is your thing as all is made of energy and information by that standard and therefore the information alone is not static and the water being consumed in Virginia is not in many ways the same as the water in Calgary. Love these discussions thank you for sharing.
@@brittybee6615 The quick version is that the physical aspect of water is the same everywhere H2O but the information transferred by that water varies in intensity from location to location based on what the specific water has encountered. So you can bless your water and it will change the state of the waters vibration per the experiments of Dr. Emote and also the science of cymatics which shows the varied patterns of various frequencies. This is part of why no two snowflakes are identical - they carry varied vibrations based on what has interacted with that water. Not sure I am doing a great job explaining this but if you have a glass of water anywhere it should help rehydrate you in the physical sense but what other information is being transferred? The process of blessing it essentially becomes an act of realignment and basically cleans the slate and raises the vibe. Hope I made that a bit clearer.
Matthieu is such and absolute genius! He sees all these complicated matters in a really clear form and is able to pass that knowledge to us in a comprehensible manner it's just amanzing! Thank you for everything you've done
Maybe I'm just really dumb, but this was the opposite of comprehensible to me. The longer I listen the more confused I get about what they're trying to say.
@@LagMasterSam It may be because I've watched Jordan Peterson's Maps of Meaning and Biblical series prior to watching this and I'm familiar with this kind of symbolic talk and the concepts. I strongly recommend those courses. Also the best stuff I've found on the internet is John Vervaeke's Awakening from the meaning crisys series, that changed my life completely.
Thanks guys ...I really did enjoy the video. I think you did a great job as far as you went in your unstructured conversation and I learned a lot. Two things I would suggest. 1) be very careful not to drift off into General statements about symbolism without backing it up with specific examples. I have listened to you guys on a number of occasions drift off into ..."people think it's this way but it's not really that way "... without explaining it using specific examples. I think you did a very good job of circling back and explaining what you meant using examples on this conversation. 2) it would be helpful to pick five specific examples of symbolism in The Bible... perhaps the most important 5 in your opinion ( tree, flood, snake...etc) and cover each one and detail using specific examples from the Bible. For those of us not very well educated in this tradition it would be extremely helpful. Once you done the five most important than you could work in concentric circles outward covering further and further this embolism that you're discussing and getting more and more esoteric. I don't know how your structuring your book but that would seem a logical way to structure it and I'm looking forward to when it comes out so keep us posted and keep up the good work. Respectfully...
Matthieu Pageau... sounds fantastic... I might suggest that you and your brother do multiple Short videos on various aspects of those themes that are found in the Bible looking at them in different ways such as artist rendering, social or monastic orderings and science for instance... these Short videos will maintain attention and focus on the upcoming book and hope to build enthusiasm for the book... Short, concise, revelatory 15 minutes...it would be fun for us and hopefully not too taxing on you guys... thanks again for sharing your passion...
How wonderful to have two brothers on the same page and level. You must’ve had a very interesting upbringing with your parents. And it must’ve been so much fun to have a brother that you can discuss these things with. I just think it’s wonderful. thank you for sharing with the world.
"He who regards the Myth or the Icon as a statement of fact, or he who regards it as a fantasy, are equally mislead. Myth is to history as universal to particular, raison d'etre to l'etre, Icon to species as exemplar to instance. Symbolism and imagery (patrika, patribimba, etc.) the purest form of art, is the proper language of metaphysics." A. K. Coomaraswamy
Thanks for the video. Another interesting video could be you reading something from the bible and show us how to use symbolism correctly like you guys discuss here. Im afraid my mind is so hung up in materialistic world view that it could be hard to start reading it correctly.
This was a really enlightening discussion. Made me realize how many aspects of materialism have been hiding away in my own preconceptions. Look forward to learning some more on this topic. Thanks for sharing.
Just wanted to put this out to this community: We live in Florida. A couple of weeks ago we came home from Mass and there was a large iguana at my front door trying to get into the house....hitting its nose against the window....right behind a statue of Christ i had put there. My husband shot it...it rolled over on its back at the foot of the Jesus statue with its front claws together. Made my day!
Jonathan and Matthieu. I am finally making it through this video. At first, it seemed a little dense. But some of your other recent videos, and other reading/listening that I've been doing, have been helping to clarify things. A big lightbulb has gone off for me this time. Jonathan: your example about Dante really helped. The idea that there were people living during a transitional time between the materialistic worldview and the past more symbolic or mystical worldview made sense. And the example of Dante's explanation that you gave also helped. Wow. I don't quite have my own words for it yet, but it's something like: these books were written from a totally different perspective. They were using this higher order symbolic language to describe things that we still have trouble talking about. We can still understand and learn from these stories, but it requires us to step into a more ancient perspective on life. It also requires us to look more deeply at the meanings of words. It can't be done through a strictly materialistic point of view, because then you just end up criticizing literalist interpretations. Which are obviously fantastical. If you can get the mix right, a whole world of spiritual meaning opens up. And these are in fact some of the most accurate descriptions of deep psychological and spiritual experience. Question though: what do you think it was about these ancient peoples that enabled them to encapsulate such deep truths in such poignant stories? What made them different from us that allowed them to perceive and describe these things? Because it can come off as kind of fantastical. Almost like they had access to some kind of supernatural knowledge bank that we don't have access to. Which sounds unlikely. Perhaps unless you consider the possibility of ritual use of psychedelics, or some form of lost spiritual practice.
Matthieu Pageau Helpful. That is probably another statement that will take a few reads to sink in. I asked Jonathan to thank you, but I'll just say it "in person" here: thanks for your work, Matthieu. I'm looking forward to learning more from you.
1st guys: Y'all need to occupy the same space! 2nd guys: Do like a movie or something, like Indyana Jones and give us youre best symbolisms of the film! That would be just, even more awesome!
This is exactly what I needed for my journey to Christianity thank you. Matthieu I have bought your book on the Symbolism of Genesis, it will be here in two days, I am excited to get into it. Was wondering what other books there are on ancient cosmology and symbolism. Also what Church Fathers are some of your guys' favorites? Want to start reading them as well
I took a Literature of the Bible course. The prof used Propp's theory of folk tale cycles, which was quite helpful. Everyone got something out of it, whether or not they were religious.
Loved this video, thank you very much. Thanks so much for doing this in English also.The only issue I had personally was the chuckling at how silly people can be (masons for example) misinterpreting symbols… it’s the chuckling at stupid people that worries me. I am one of those who, while luckily not mentally ill, am fairly concerned that I’m missing most of the truth in the scripture or not doing it right when I offer a decade and mediate upon a mystery. I simply do my best… but I’m generally agog during a homily, hoping the priest will make things clear. The chuckling at the ignorance of others is one reason I dropped Harris and atheists like him - after a decade of reading their books, doing the SH meditation for many years etc. The arrogance that the mean chuckling seems to symbolize always worried me and frightened me about the atheists and eventually led me to disregard them. I think the symbols and parables in the bible, sacraments, and traditions are meant for people like me: simple and needing concrete examples. But the texts are so old, that without linguistic and historical markers, they can be bereft of meaning. Given those, I can access the concepts and emotions the texts and symbols are meant to impart. Anyhow I will get Matthieu’s book, most grateful! And visiting Jonathan’s site to see his art is incredible… I sent a link on Snow White to my son today. He is also an artist and I think that may be an ideal Christmas gift if ready by then. I’m very grateful that you both share yourselves so generously. Many thanks!!!
Brothers together....( branches in a tree) . a remarkable dialogue.....I needed to hear every word. thankyou .....Your description of: Heaven and Earth , Man, meaning and symbolism framework....the first coherent description i got .... thankyou Matthieu, thankyou Johnathan..... thankyou... if opportunity arises, I want to hear from you around ;.Soul, Logos,..... i connect with your reference in Genesis. symbolism language.... wanted to say....like you mention ...over time ; meaning changes ( the socializing and meaning and fact is always happening ) forgive me, ...it is marvelous to behold life , however , the mystery with our Soul /logos. has my attention.... is the soul an overlay? or an underlay, what is the hierarchy ? with soulfulness . seems soul deeply supporting reality.....in both ; longer time frame , yet shorter time when embodied ..... seems incomprehensible ..... like you both ,speak of this.....best together.......
I am so grateful to have found your channel! I'm almost giddy with anticipation of learning more! This is, well, you both are brilliant!!!! I've ordered a physical copy of Matthieu's book and it should arrive this coming Friday. I'm sure I will enjoy it and have to read it probably several times. I Have a great deal of interest in studying patterns and symbols of the Bible in a meaningful and practical, grounded and real way. Thank you for sharing your love and understanding of symbolism.
Yes this why we are struggling to understand the Word of God in the Bible and this is very eye opening thank you for this I needed to hear this so grateful 🙏😀👍🏼
My mind suddenly shifted into understanding I was stuck in a materialistic point of view. I had to watch the video a couple times before I understood. Mind Blown!
What an excellent discussion. This could save a newbie a LOT of reading! Or at least help him/her better understand his/her reading. Thank you both so much!
Plato's realm of perfect forms, by definition, does not exist in the material world. Materialists read this, and say it doesn't exist in the material world -- and think they proved that Plato's realm does not exist. In other words, they cannot begin to imagine the concept. All their phenomena look like nails, to them.
Thanks for the video . I think the idea of the meaning of symbolism being hidden or at least partly hidden to the masses is not new or wrong . But it's not hidden because some dark or secret group of people wants to but because the deeper meaning is not accessible to most people's "intellect" ( I am not referring here to the definition of "intellect" that we have nowadays) . I also think that symbolism works by itself and infuses its meaning according to ones own capabilities , the symbolism of a story is always there and even if a person takes the story literally , there is probably still a part of that deeper meaning that gets to that person. The idea that only a few can understand deeply some messages is not something "new" that happened at the time of the renaissance like you said , quite the opposite I reckon. It's a characteristic of the modern age to think that the deeper messages are equally accessible to all.
_"It's a characteristic of the modern age to think that the deeper messages are equally accessible to all."_ Good observation. In the secular sphere it happens all the time. Look at people with phDs in a particular field versus those that didn't finish high school. The phD likely has greater knowledge ie deeper understanding of that particular field than the person who didn't finish high school. Why should it be any different for symbolism/traditional cosmology?
In language, we find that various languages have words that share a similar idea but the depth of meaning changes from language to language. Some words have great depth of meaning in one language and a very shallow depth of meaning in another. I am certain that the same must be true of symbols. I believe some symbols would not even be comprehensible outside their native cultural context.
Loved the video. I am waiting with baited breath for your brother's book. You guys are helping me make sense of ....... stuff, for lack of a better word.
I've just recently started watching your video series. I have been a protestant my entire life. Now that I'm in my late 50's, I'm trying out the local Orthodox church. I wish I had learned about the differences years ago.
The concept of Spacetime, if you look at it is actually a return to the symbolic understanding after it was misunderstood in the Neutonian era. The unification of space and time into one creates Spacetime as "the field of change".
Hi! Thanks for this great video! You said you grew up Protestant. Have you ever talked about what made you change? And could you talk some time about your specific faith, I don’t really understand what an orthodox Christian is. Thanks guys!
The more connected the symbolism is, the deeper it goes. Like a tree with deeper roots, it can take more of a beating from the winds of time and still hold true.
Is symbolic understanding fundamental to the orthodox tradition in general? I ask because I would like to know if I would be exposed to more of this way of thinking in a local orthodox church. Question coming from Louisville Kentucky... Thank you.
Jonathan and Matthieu, Loving your videos! How should we reconcile the idea you both present on Scripture being properly understood within a traditional worldview with the experience of theoria? From my understanding, Scriptures are a product of created words used by the prophets and apostles and used by the Fathers to lead the Church to uncreated words and the experience of God through His uncreated energy and divine light. When you both and all of us speak of higher understanding, the ultimate goal we understand at theoria (illumination and deification). We know that this is almost always brought about by the Saints leading the Faithful to this experience, with the Bible as the greatest aid to this. But it seems to me that traditional cosmology alone does not accomplish this, but rather a cooperation (synergy, maybe) between traditional cosmology and guidance by the saints both living and departed. So if the traditional cosmology has been overtaken by materialism, then it seems trying to resurrect it (which I agree is a huge necessity) without theoria, can be a very dangerous undertaking. I'm not trying to condemn anything you both have said and done. On the contrary, I have found it incredibly helpful and important. I'm incorporating these ideas into a catechism program I'm developing for the Antiochians, but in my concern and fear of leading others astray, away from the divine life to which we are all called rather than towards it, I find I heavily rely on the Fathers and those in a state of theoria to navigate our impure souls to the calling of life in Christ. The lecture on St. Gregory's Life of Moses was fantastic! Thanks for that presentation! In the videos you've made, and I've carefully studied by watching a number of times each, how helpful have you found the Church Fathers (or who specifically) in developing your understanding of the traditional phronema and interpretation of symbols?
Oh, you aimed right alright 1:07:05! Nov 2021 is when I get this vid on my feed and, suffice to say, I've subscribed. Glad to learn - mostly for humanity - that "Mat-yeuh" got his book out; will pick it up shortly. Meanwhile, I'm going to check out all your vids Jonathan - at least all the Bible-themed ones. If this vid is anything to go by, I believe all of the others will have the right tone and intent, too. (Well in advance) thank you for creating all this content.
Matthieu, how you pressed in the final 5 mins, addressing intoxication, an honest enquiry will bring fruit......you caught my attention ( paraphrase ) "intoxication" describes the quintessential momentum the garden. thankyou
It is an interesting way to see the effects of how language evolves. More and more precision can and does inhibit meaning. There's something lost when taxonomy increases society's vocabulary and one main idea is dispersed into more and more words. The precision itself is valuable, but this is dead on that something is lost trying to fish out the perfect 'modern' word to do a 1:1 comparison for an ancient story without realizing the thousands of years of mitosis involved with the original symbols.
Read diferent literature from diferent times and diferent countries, and if you can afford, learn other languages. Overtime, you´ll be able to detect the subtle whealt and nuances of meaning in words. E.g.: english "matter" derives directly from latin "mater" wich means mother. Scientific literature tends always to normalize and specify meaning by definition as a standart, but even then, the shift shall happens as paradigms change, letting litle trace behind of the original meaning. Literature, on the other way, tends generally to preserve and enrich the meaning of words. Or it was so until the XX century...
I understand some of this.. But I really need someone to explain to me in elementary terms exactly what he is saying.. I have listened to about 4 or 5 of his videos talking about symbolism and patterns, and I still can not completely grasp it.. I feel so stupid. He uses a lot of big words for me.. 😬 And I want SO badly to understand what he is saying! Can anyone help me? On another note. How cool is it that Jonathan Pageau and Jordan Peterson share first and last initials? God sent them here for this very time, I do believe. Two very important souls for us humans to have in this day and time. ❤
It didn't really click for me until Matthieu defined symbolism as the unity of fact and meaning Hal way through the video. Now I feel like I have to rewatch the first half with that in mind to better comprehend what is being said.
Excellent video! I would love to watch follow up videos where the two of you focus discussion on particular symbols or stories to illustrate what you present here
Very useful video! Opened my eyes to many things. I would love to see you go through chapters/books of the Bible and explain the symbolism that you see 🙏.
Hey Jonathan, great video. It's comforting to hear that you came from a materialist interpretation because every religious person that I've ever known holds a materialist view, which is untenable today. I had one question, and I hope it makes sense: Peterson has said that what matters is how you act based on what you "believe". Do literalists and symbolists "act out" the same conclusion from the bible, even though they see it differently? Or do symbolic interpretations lead to vastly different consequences for action? This assuming that the literalist will act out truthfully what he was taught, and that the symbolist follows the conclusions drawn from a deeper understanding. Asking because if you say yes, then from my perspective, there's no immediate crisis, and the problem is relegated to smart people looking for answers. But if the answer's no, it seems like there's been a crisis of faith for the last 100 years. Thanks.
Super interesting video. I can't believe I have never heard this line of thinking before, because I think it makes a lot of sense. I'm still not 100% clear on the difference between Symbolism and Metaphor. So I would love you hear more from you guys in general, and hopefully the ideas will get more fleshed out.
Ah gotcha. That makes sense. So I dunno if other people feel the same as I do, but it's very refreshing to hear this view. While I have been watching some JBP, and now you guys, this is still a very new way of viewing these ideas for me. I feel like you guys have a lot of potential to discuss these ideas. Like you said, it may seem obvious to you, as you have been thinking about these things for a long time. But for someone like me, I need to start at square one. Just a few ideas for further videos (in case you were trying to think of some): - going more in depth on the idea of symbolism/metaphor vs. unlimited interpretation. You touched on it here, but I could use more info on that distinction. - a history of the rise of materialism, and now its logical end. the idea that we have reached the rock bottom of materialism is super interesting to me. That's a BIG idea. And no one is talking about it Hope this helps. Want to give you encouragement to keep going! Thanks.
Great video. Not sure why I didn't find this sooner, I'll blame UA-cam. I think the core issue is that people, as they turned inwards for knowledge, arrogantly looked beyond the meaning of symbols to re-interpret what they were seeing into the materialistic lens. To be fair, materialism provided a lot of previously 'hidden' meaning. One issue I see is that I'm not sure what the difference between entropy and time is, or how anyone would prove they are different. So, they are both snake, which is a much better way to think about events. I'm not sure I'm on board with your thoughts on Biblical stories. I think the fact that they are metaphors and learning to read them as such, is what gives them the power to act on multiple levels, each of those levels helps different people (who are all at different abilities and skills and training of understanding) come to a useful conclusion (if different) about the meaning of the story. Symbols may also serve this purpose, in other words, multiple meanings, leading to a useful conclusion for the person absorbing the symbol. The emphasis on the hidden meaning only works in the context of materialism. This is the mistake these conspiracy interpreters make, overall. They also want shortcuts, after all, if you can shortcut a bridge by engineering it to conform to some minimal standard (thus ensuring it won't be around for hundreds of years, like a Roman Aqueduct) then you should be able to do that for enlightenment or spiritual fullfillment, etc. This view is of course false, but with materialism, I can see where it might arise. Thanks for giving me a way to think about these topics.
A helpful idea (that I learned when becoming a Catholic) is the distinction between literal and literalistic. The literal meaning is the meaning that the author/s intended to convey, in their context and to their audience in accord with the genre they believed best to communicate it. The literalistic approach is attempting to find the meaning using a misunderstanding of the original context (audience, language, culture etc). A good example is the phrase in English, "it was raining cats and dogs". The literalistic interpretation actually sees the cats and dogs falling from the sky. Whereas an English speaker knows that it means it was raining really really hard.
I'm really trying to understand what is being said as I feel as though we do need to escape the Enlightenment/Rationalist view when reading the Bible, but at some point the material and the symbolic have to meet. For example, with Elijah -- okay, he symbolically went into heaven not into outer space, but I have a hard time thinking that even ancient people read this and thought he merely symbolically was taken up. If he wasn't "literally" taken into heaven, then was there a literal whirlwind? Were they even literal, physical people walking around in a historical sense? For example, a semi-materialist reading would merely lead you to believe that he was being lifted up by angelic beings in some kind of tornado and perhaps vanished or was transported away. He left his mantle behind, and Elisha took it up and hit the Jordan river with it and it dried up so he could walk across. A symbolic reading might be that there was a guy named Elijah that went to heights and like a father passing on, his protégé had to take up the "mantle" and continue in his place, but not before tearing off his own garments (ie, his current status) and the apprehension of his new mission for his life made a way for him in the chaos of uncertainty. Ok, so maybe there is symbolic truth in a factual event, but obviously the supernatural is involved. So, how does a symbolic reading of Genesis make a literal reading impossible? If it's merely symbolic, what makes the Bible any better than the Bhagavad Gita? Is it better?
Thanks! This is a brilliant talk. I am not an expert in philosophy by any means , but to me it looks like a very interesting combination of phenomenology, platonism and Christianity. It’s a powerful mix that I got addicted to.
I find it fascinating that Dante would have issued that "anti Literalistic" caveat about his own writings.... especially in light of the fact that many believers today have inherited a religious viewpoint that does exactly that - especially regarding their way of thinking about "heaven" and "hell" just to name two. I often ponder the statement of the author Flannery O'Conner in a letter to a friend that is often quoted in discussions about the Eucharist: "If the Eucharist is merely a symbol, then I say to hell with it". I really think she was using the word 'symbol' to mean 'metaphor'. Such a great discussion! Thank you!!
I agree with the Christiaan Coetzee comment, i.e. "I would love for you guys to delve into the actual symbols like a snake = time etc." and I would further like to hear more about your symbolic interpretation of Biblical events, and examples of how it was demonstrated to be valid.
I really appreciate your websites and discussions. As an artist I continually work with the basic quality of the metaphor (i.e.symbol). As you know, there are two parts: the "tenor", which is what one wishes to express, and the "vehicle," which is the object or word or formula that you use to express the tenor. As humans I believe we have the permission to assign meaning to "vehicles" as creative beings. But perhaps there are "vehicles" assigned meaning by our Creator that are meant to remain as universals to administer to our souls. Actually any and all communication, whether word, deed, formula, or mathematical equation uses the character of the "metaphor"...some more basically understood than others.
44:22 From what I've understood Man is the juncture between Heaven and Earth, and what you're getting at here (why it's two sides of the same coin) is - one group is saying it's all Heaven, separated from Earth, the other is it's all Earth, separated from Heaven
Jonathan and Matthieu,
This was a great video-- please continue these! I am eagerly anticipating your book, Matthieu.
Question: you mentioned in another post on this thread (of which I can't find at the moment) that you didn't have any books to recommend about this approach to symbolism and that this was in large part the reason you are writing your book. However, you apparently have quite a sophisticated and seemingly valid framework for interpretation. What influences have you had that have led you to this framework? Is this a framework that you have come up with largely on your own based on a careful encounter with the material? Or are there techniques/perspectives here you've learned elsewhere?! "Traditional cosmology"-- is there anywhere I could find more about this?
ua-cam.com/video/A_gqMCdCMDM/v-deo.html
were the reading materials ever recommended? If so I can't see the comment? I would love to get in on that.
If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? (John 3.12)
Mattieu discovered Rene Guenon and then shared his work with Jonathon; they viewed it as just what they'd been searching for for so long in terms of someone with a deep grasp of symbolism.
Tolkien's "Mythopoeia" is exactly about this. It's a poem that he wrote to C.S. Lewis before Lewis had become a Christian. Lewis had an intuitive sense that there was a deeper truth playing out in all of the "facts" around him. Tolkien wrote the poem to say "YES - you're exactly correct!"
My mother in law grew up way out in the country in southern Mexico. She never went to school or learned to read. She speaks mostly using parables and symbolic language. She’s very intelligent and can interpret dreams and knows many things about the natural world. Great talk I really enjoyed it!
Wow! I'm sure she if fascinating and enjoyable company! You are blessed!
This video answers so many questions for me.
Coming to Christianity through learning from people like Peterson and yourself, I’ve run into a few literal-vs.-symbolic rough spots in attending a local protestant church, and I couldn’t put my finger on the issue.
I appreciate the church, and plan to continue attending, but I’m glad to have this understanding as I move forward.
Thanks Jonathan and Matthieu!
Totally resonate with what Cord has said here.
I agree with you Mr Nielson, I am living in a state of awe atm. Mr Pageau is answering so many questions for me.
It's like you wrote my story.
I too came to Pageau via Peterson.
I too have struggled to find a church that fits since coming to Christ on June 20 2020.
So many questions answered with this video.
Hi Cord. Have you looked into Eastern Orthodoxy? Much of the teachings and approach to interpreting Scripture comes from a more symbolic understanding, and can be seen in many of the Church Fathers where it seems much of the religion of the West has lost touch with this due to the influence of materialism.
@@DeonDSilva I ran into the trouble of finding a church as well. If you know of an Orthodox Church in your area, I'd encourage you to attend and set up time to speak with the priest about the differences between Eastern and Western Christianity.
I am so grateful for these men's work. I have been exploring Orthodoxy, and have been experiencing shifting from a secular, materialist worldview into one where I can read and appreciate the bible. This idea of symbolism has effectively unlocked the door for me.
You'd like the traditional latin mass (Roman Catholic)
Has your brother published his book yet?
Its been 2 years. How has your exploration of Orthodoxy been so far?
32:56 I never realized that a symbol is neither a metaphor or allegory, but rather the exact representation of what is being represented?
The discussion about the different lenses which Atheists and what Matthieu calls "materialists who don't know it yet" type of religious folk use was very elucidating. After watching a lot of Harris and Peterson, it clears up where the arguments go astray. Religion isn't for material understanding it's for experiential or phenomenological understanding. I have long thought that the opposition between science and religion was naively tribal and fundamentally missed the point of both religion and science.
Great discussion, looking forward to your book Matthieu, and more channel content Jonathan.
In case you are still seeking feedback four years later, the pace of this conversation was perfect for me. Lived in jordan petersons work for like a year and the last month or so in yours jonathan. Thanks for what you are doing. Its really helping me sort some things out.
This is a hidden gem of you tube. I'm very grateful and feel lucky to have discovered Jonathan. My whole life I struggled to make sense of things. I studied philosophy and art and literature but always left I had a huge chunk of the puzzle missing and I finally feel like I arrived in the place that can take me on right path and I feel much more sane. Tank you and God bless you!
Speaking of the transformation of language overtime, y’all are some revolutionary thinkers. This is one of the most important conversations on the internet. Period. When does the book come out? I’m buying for sure.
That's what i thought. How come this is at only 60 k views?
If I even begin to comprehend what they are talking about I would be able to experience another reality through a very powerful point of view.
Even a minor increase in the ability to See Symbolically would be transformational.
Three months after I first watched this video and many attempts at the book i finally got the shift in perspective from material to symbolic tonight.
It sounded like so much gibberish but i kept listening to this talk again and again.
@@DeonDSilvawhat's an example of a situation you handle differently with your new understanding?
I loved hearing you mention the horizontal perception of reality. I just finished reading Stratford Caldecott's "Beauty for Truth's Sake" and before that his "Beauty in the Word". In both books he talks about the importance of understanding that there are both horizontal AND vertical dimensions of reality. It reminds me of how Fr. Stephen Freeman has written about how the place where we meet Christ is on the cross; he says often that the way down is the way up. And on the cross is exaclty where the vertical and horizontal intersect. Love the imagery!
I Love this video... you guys have a great relationship... Matthieu, please make an audio version of your new book.
I liked this the first time and thought I got it, but I keep coming back to this video and finding the things you talk about make sense more and more every time.
Thanksgiving dinner at your house must be amazing. :)
Never talk alone to each other about symbolism again. Please include us!
I would love for you guys to delve into the actual symbols like a snake = time etc.
Thanks!!
Oh, you planning on doing an interactive livestream? That would be so awesome! You converted me to Orthodoxy and I would love to ask some questions!
Jonathan Pageau Thank you, can't wait. I have also started to become very interested in Orthodox thanks to your videos. Orthodox is probability as close as one can find to something authentic and unadulterated by modern leftist bs.
Don't tell them what to do.
The snake is symbolic of change, which is what the ancient understanding of 'time' meant, as time is not a 'force' but a human construct so now in our modern understanding 'times' perceived as a ticking clock.
Check out Santos Bonacci on UA-cam, MrAstrotheology. He knows. His info will also blow your mind. He understands the symbology and I think the snake is the sine wave but I could be wrong. The snake coiled around the pole, the tree, a staff I believe represents a sine wave and zero point. It’s been a while since I’ve caught up with Santos but he knows his stuff. I also recommend reading about sacred geometry. Many sources are good for seekers. Good luck on your quest for knowledge!!!
Great video! I love how ultra composed and focused your faces look. It speaks to your inner wisdom. Thank you for your thoughts.
@johnathanpageau I grasp what you are saying and I am an "uneducated" man( no letters)
. My first introduction to you was your Jordan Peterson debut on THE SYMBOLIC WORLD. That blew my mind. I see it. It is the same thing happening all at once all the time over and over above and below, inside and out. Thinking along these lines has opened up gateways of thought and added depth to my life. Thank you brother 🙏
I myself have drunk thousands of varieties of "H20".
No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man - Heraclitus
well, water IS the universal solvent! and it's 'most likely' the medium life started in. A good way for a hero to be reborn, i suppose it's related to the baptism in the same sense
Wow! Amazing. I’ve always thought that there was something more to the bible - because it is cryptic to me. Been raised Roman Catholic and now at 50 yrs old, finally an explanation that’s easy to digest. I am amazed and want to learn more. The ‘gun’ example, the fish/whale conundrum, and the mowing of the grass and the H2O that we drink - finally drove it home to me. Thank you very much.
What came to my heart as i read your comment...Mark Chater 4 ..10¶And when he (Jesus) was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables.
11And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,
12so that
“they may indeed see but not perceive,
and may indeed hear but not understand,
lest they should turn and be forgiven.”
Most will not understand the bible, it's spiritually decearned, meaning: a person must have the Holy Spirit living inside to be able to receive the intended God given, revelation Truth the way God wants it I interpreted. Outside of God's way is man's fallible insight and errored interpretations/biases that go on to deceive the masses that choose to rely on man, opposed to seeking God through His word and being lead by the Holy Spirit who is our helper that leads into ALL Truth.
Just returned to this and it really is the best introduction to symbolism. Incredible content. And free!!
Matthieu describes it so perfectly. It's really helping make it click in place.
Very interesting talk, thank you. In a very simple way, I see symbolism as a way to compress information using commonly associated forms. A way to do that before writing, when recording and communicating something took a great deal of effort... therefore we evolved a method of conveying complex meaning through the combination of forms each representing concepts or entire bodies of knowledge. The common association is a very important factor which, due to our changing culture and craft or technology, can render old symbolism completely detached from their original meanings. Fire is a classic example, once it was a part of everyone's daily lives and so a symbol conveying fire was immediately clear to everyone as an essential for survival, comfort, community... and life itself, so the idea of the eternal flame was immediately meaningful - today however, even that basic thing, fire, is an abstract concept to many people and so something like "the eternal flame" has to be explained intellectually.
This in my opinion is an absolutely crucial conversation for the culture war and dichotomy of thought. Going to share as far and wide as I can. Thank you for articulating and crystalizing these contrasted ways of thinking and harmonizing them. This is the great work. Keep it up! Wow!
I watched this video 4 months ago around Christmas and didnt fully understand but intuited that they were onto something. 4 months later after watching many of Jonathan's videos I realise that I was a materialist the first time that I watched this video. Am really starting to get it now. I am beginning to see the world through the conscious lens of meaning and purpose. Many thanks Pageau boys!
When Jonathan mentioned the aspect of drinking water not being a simple consumption of H2O
I immediately thought of Doctor Emotos work on water being able to hold emotions and vibrations. This is also why you should say grace or bless the things you consume as food and drink. One reason is a show of gratitude but the other is to transmute existing frequencies into their highest possible vibe before you fully incorporate it into your being.
This also has scientific foundation if that is your thing as all is made of energy and information by that standard and therefore the information alone is not static and the water being consumed in Virginia is not in many ways the same as the water in Calgary.
Love these discussions thank you for sharing.
Hi. If you don’t mind, could you explain what you mean by information in the last sentence?
@@brittybee6615 The quick version is that the physical aspect of water is the same everywhere H2O but the information transferred by that water varies in intensity from location to location based on what the specific water has encountered. So you can bless your water and it will change the state of the waters vibration per the experiments of Dr. Emote and also the science of cymatics which shows the varied patterns of various frequencies. This is part of why no two snowflakes are identical - they carry varied vibrations based on what has interacted with that water.
Not sure I am doing a great job explaining this but if you have a glass of water anywhere it should help rehydrate you in the physical sense but what other information is being transferred? The process of blessing it essentially becomes an act of realignment and basically cleans the slate and raises the vibe.
Hope I made that a bit clearer.
@@markperron851 Yes, a little bit clearer, thanks. I’ll have to look into Dr. Emote and cymatics.
Thanks again.
@@brittybee6615 I misspelled his name. Fat fingers don't ya know. Emoto is correct. I believe his first name is Masahiro. Best wishes
Matthieu is such and absolute genius! He sees all these complicated matters in a really clear form and is able to pass that knowledge to us in a comprehensible manner it's just amanzing! Thank you for everything you've done
Maybe I'm just really dumb, but this was the opposite of comprehensible to me. The longer I listen the more confused I get about what they're trying to say.
@@LagMasterSam It may be because I've watched Jordan Peterson's Maps of Meaning and Biblical series prior to watching this and I'm familiar with this kind of symbolic talk and the concepts. I strongly recommend those courses. Also the best stuff I've found on the internet is John Vervaeke's Awakening from the meaning crisys series, that changed my life completely.
Thanks guys ...I really did enjoy the video.
I think you did a great job as far as you went in your unstructured conversation and I learned a lot.
Two things I would suggest.
1) be very careful not to drift off into General statements about symbolism without backing it up with specific examples. I have listened to you guys on a number of occasions drift off into ..."people think it's this way but it's not really that way "... without explaining it using specific examples. I think you did a very good job of circling back and explaining what you meant using examples on this conversation.
2) it would be helpful to pick five specific examples of symbolism in The Bible... perhaps the most important 5 in your opinion ( tree, flood, snake...etc) and cover each one and detail using specific examples from the Bible. For those of us not very well educated in this tradition it would be extremely helpful. Once you done the five most important than you could work in concentric circles outward covering further and further this embolism that you're discussing and getting more and more esoteric. I don't know how your structuring your book but that would seem a logical way to structure it and I'm looking forward to when it comes out so keep us posted and keep up the good work.
Respectfully...
Agree with 2)
Matthieu Pageau... sounds fantastic... I might suggest that you and your brother do multiple Short videos on various aspects of those themes that are found in the Bible looking at them in different ways such as artist rendering, social or monastic orderings and science for instance... these Short videos will maintain attention and focus on the upcoming book and hope to build enthusiasm for the book... Short, concise, revelatory 15 minutes...it would be fun for us and hopefully not too taxing on you guys... thanks again for sharing your passion...
How wonderful to have two brothers on the same page and level. You must’ve had a very interesting upbringing with your parents. And it must’ve been so much fun to have a brother that you can discuss these things with. I just think it’s wonderful. thank you for sharing with the world.
"He who regards the Myth or the Icon as a statement of fact, or he who regards it as a fantasy, are equally mislead. Myth is to history as universal to particular, raison d'etre to l'etre, Icon to species as exemplar to instance. Symbolism and imagery (patrika, patribimba, etc.) the purest form of art, is the proper language of metaphysics." A. K. Coomaraswamy
Thank you Pageau brothers for showing us the hidden pearls contained in the Word, may it lead all to union with Christ Jesus in Truth and Love.
Thanks for the video.
Another interesting video could be you reading something from the bible and show us how to use symbolism correctly like you guys discuss here. Im afraid my mind is so hung up in materialistic world view that it could be hard to start reading it correctly.
This video for me represents a transition in the way I see the world by Feb, 2020
In total surrendering to Christ....I have found myself and the purpose of my Life.💖.
Everything points to Christ
I'm looking forward to Matthieu's book that was mentioned in JBP's podcast. From listening to you, Jonathan, I'm very interested in Orthodoxy too.
This was a really enlightening discussion. Made me realize how many aspects of materialism have been hiding away in my own preconceptions. Look forward to learning some more on this topic. Thanks for sharing.
Just wanted to put this out to this community: We live in Florida. A couple of weeks ago we came home from Mass and there was a large iguana at my front door trying to get into the house....hitting its nose against the window....right behind a statue of Christ i had put there. My husband shot it...it rolled over on its back at the foot of the Jesus statue with its front claws together. Made my day!
What an adventure! Loved it. When is part 2!?
Jonathan and Matthieu. I am finally making it through this video. At first, it seemed a little dense. But some of your other recent videos, and other reading/listening that I've been doing, have been helping to clarify things. A big lightbulb has gone off for me this time. Jonathan: your example about Dante really helped. The idea that there were people living during a transitional time between the materialistic worldview and the past more symbolic or mystical worldview made sense. And the example of Dante's explanation that you gave also helped. Wow. I don't quite have my own words for it yet, but it's something like: these books were written from a totally different perspective. They were using this higher order symbolic language to describe things that we still have trouble talking about. We can still understand and learn from these stories, but it requires us to step into a more ancient perspective on life. It also requires us to look more deeply at the meanings of words. It can't be done through a strictly materialistic point of view, because then you just end up criticizing literalist interpretations. Which are obviously fantastical. If you can get the mix right, a whole world of spiritual meaning opens up. And these are in fact some of the most accurate descriptions of deep psychological and spiritual experience. Question though: what do you think it was about these ancient peoples that enabled them to encapsulate such deep truths in such poignant stories? What made them different from us that allowed them to perceive and describe these things? Because it can come off as kind of fantastical. Almost like they had access to some kind of supernatural knowledge bank that we don't have access to. Which sounds unlikely. Perhaps unless you consider the possibility of ritual use of psychedelics, or some form of lost spiritual practice.
Matthieu Pageau Helpful. That is probably another statement that will take a few reads to sink in. I asked Jonathan to thank you, but I'll just say it "in person" here: thanks for your work, Matthieu. I'm looking forward to learning more from you.
1st guys: Y'all need to occupy the same space!
2nd guys: Do like a movie or something, like Indyana Jones and give us youre best symbolisms of the film!
That would be just, even more awesome!
This is exactly what I needed for my journey to Christianity thank you. Matthieu I have bought your book on the Symbolism of Genesis, it will be here in two days, I am excited to get into it. Was wondering what other books there are on ancient cosmology and symbolism. Also what Church Fathers are some of your guys' favorites? Want to start reading them as well
St Gregory of Nyssa's, 'Life of Moses' is a book that Jonathan often recommends.
I'm waiting for my copy to arrive in the post.
"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible." - Thomas Aquinas
oh my god. this video changed my life a lot. Thank you so much!
I LOOOVVVEE this talk. I can't believe I haven't seen it earlier!!!
I took a Literature of the Bible course. The prof used Propp's theory of folk tale cycles, which was quite helpful. Everyone got something out of
it, whether or not they were religious.
Loved this video, thank you very much. Thanks so much for doing this in English also.The only issue I had personally was the chuckling at how silly people can be (masons for example) misinterpreting symbols… it’s the chuckling at stupid people that worries me.
I am one of those who, while luckily not mentally ill, am fairly concerned that I’m missing most of the truth in the scripture or not doing it right when I offer a decade and mediate upon a mystery. I simply do my best… but I’m generally agog during a homily, hoping the priest will make things clear.
The chuckling at the ignorance of others is one reason I dropped Harris and atheists like him - after a decade of reading their books, doing the SH meditation for many years etc. The arrogance that the mean chuckling seems to symbolize always worried me and frightened me about the atheists and eventually led me to disregard them.
I think the symbols and parables in the bible, sacraments, and traditions are meant for people like me: simple and needing concrete examples. But the texts are so old, that without linguistic and historical markers, they can be bereft of meaning. Given those, I can access the concepts and emotions the texts and symbols are meant to impart.
Anyhow I will get Matthieu’s book, most grateful! And visiting Jonathan’s site to see his art is incredible… I sent a link on Snow White to my son today. He is also an artist and I think that may be an ideal Christmas gift if ready by then.
I’m very grateful that you both share yourselves so generously. Many thanks!!!
Brothers together....( branches in a tree) . a remarkable dialogue.....I needed to hear every word. thankyou .....Your description of: Heaven and Earth , Man, meaning and symbolism framework....the first coherent description i got .... thankyou Matthieu, thankyou Johnathan..... thankyou... if opportunity arises, I want to hear from you around ;.Soul, Logos,..... i connect with your reference in Genesis. symbolism language.... wanted to say....like you mention ...over time ; meaning changes ( the socializing and meaning and fact is always happening ) forgive me, ...it is marvelous to behold life , however , the mystery with our Soul /logos. has my attention.... is the soul an overlay? or an underlay, what is the hierarchy ? with soulfulness . seems soul deeply supporting reality.....in both ; longer time frame , yet shorter time when embodied ..... seems incomprehensible ..... like you both ,speak of this.....best together.......
"Symbolism is the union of fact and meaning."
Swoon. ❤
I have been seeking this perspective for 20 years.
I am so grateful to have found your channel! I'm almost giddy with anticipation of learning more!
This is, well, you both are brilliant!!!!
I've ordered a physical copy of Matthieu's book and it should arrive this coming Friday. I'm sure I will enjoy it and have to read it probably several times.
I Have a great deal of interest in studying patterns and symbols of the Bible in a meaningful and practical, grounded and real way.
Thank you for sharing your love and understanding of symbolism.
Excellent. More with Matthieu please.
Lots of really great points here. It’s so refreshing to hear conversations like this.
Yes this why we are struggling to understand the Word of God in the Bible and this is very eye opening thank you for this I needed to hear this so grateful 🙏😀👍🏼
Humility, men. Please come to seekers in humility.
God bless you Jonathan. I feel like I have found gold
My mind suddenly shifted into understanding I was stuck in a materialistic point of view.
I had to watch the video a couple times before I understood.
Mind Blown!
This video makes some clarity happen. Thanks!
This very valuable to me. Thank you so much for producing this content!
What an excellent discussion. This could save a newbie a LOT of reading! Or at least help him/her better understand his/her reading. Thank you both so much!
Plato's realm of perfect forms, by definition, does not exist in the material world. Materialists read this, and say it doesn't exist in the material world -- and think they proved that Plato's realm does not exist. In other words, they cannot begin to imagine the concept. All their phenomena look like nails, to them.
Thanks for the video . I think the idea of the meaning of symbolism being hidden or at least partly hidden to the masses is not new or wrong . But it's not hidden because some dark or secret group of people wants to but because the deeper meaning is not accessible to most people's "intellect" ( I am not referring here to the definition of "intellect" that we have nowadays) . I also think that symbolism works by itself and infuses its meaning according to ones own capabilities , the symbolism of a story is always there and even if a person takes the story literally , there is probably still a part of that deeper meaning that gets to that person. The idea that only a few can understand deeply some messages is not something "new" that happened at the time of the renaissance like you said , quite the opposite I reckon. It's a characteristic of the modern age to think that the deeper messages are equally accessible to all.
_"It's a characteristic of the modern age to think that the deeper messages are equally accessible to all."_
Good observation. In the secular sphere it happens all the time. Look at people with phDs in a particular field versus those that didn't finish high school. The phD likely has greater knowledge ie deeper understanding of that particular field than the person who didn't finish high school. Why should it be any different for symbolism/traditional cosmology?
In language, we find that various languages have words that share a similar idea but the depth of meaning changes from language to language. Some words have great depth of meaning in one language and a very shallow depth of meaning in another. I am certain that the same must be true of symbols. I believe some symbols would not even be comprehensible outside their native cultural context.
awesome stuff. this helped clear up a lot of my thinking! looking forward to more books from Matthieu immensely
Loved the video. I am waiting with baited breath for your brother's book. You guys are helping me make sense of ....... stuff, for lack of a better word.
I've just recently started watching your video series. I have been a protestant my entire life. Now that I'm in my late 50's, I'm trying out the local Orthodox church. I wish I had learned about the differences years ago.
This is one of the most interesting videos I've ever seen.
The concept of Spacetime, if you look at it is actually a return to the symbolic understanding after it was misunderstood in the Neutonian era. The unification of space and time into one creates Spacetime as "the field of change".
Hi! Thanks for this great video!
You said you grew up Protestant. Have you ever talked about what made you change? And could you talk some time about your specific faith, I don’t really understand what an orthodox Christian is. Thanks guys!
The more connected the symbolism is, the deeper it goes. Like a tree with deeper roots, it can take more of a beating from the winds of time and still hold true.
Is symbolic understanding fundamental to the orthodox tradition in general? I ask because I would like to know if I would be exposed to more of this way of thinking in a local orthodox church. Question coming from Louisville Kentucky... Thank you.
Jonathan and Matthieu, Loving your videos! How should we reconcile the idea you both present on Scripture being properly understood within a traditional worldview with the experience of theoria? From my understanding, Scriptures are a product of created words used by the prophets and apostles and used by the Fathers to lead the Church to uncreated words and the experience of God through His uncreated energy and divine light. When you both and all of us speak of higher understanding, the ultimate goal we understand at theoria (illumination and deification). We know that this is almost always brought about by the Saints leading the Faithful to this experience, with the Bible as the greatest aid to this. But it seems to me that traditional cosmology alone does not accomplish this, but rather a cooperation (synergy, maybe) between traditional cosmology and guidance by the saints both living and departed. So if the traditional cosmology has been overtaken by materialism, then it seems trying to resurrect it (which I agree is a huge necessity) without theoria, can be a very dangerous undertaking. I'm not trying to condemn anything you both have said and done. On the contrary, I have found it incredibly helpful and important. I'm incorporating these ideas into a catechism program I'm developing for the Antiochians, but in my concern and fear of leading others astray, away from the divine life to which we are all called rather than towards it, I find I heavily rely on the Fathers and those in a state of theoria to navigate our impure souls to the calling of life in Christ. The lecture on St. Gregory's Life of Moses was fantastic! Thanks for that presentation! In the videos you've made, and I've carefully studied by watching a number of times each, how helpful have you found the Church Fathers (or who specifically) in developing your understanding of the traditional phronema and interpretation of symbols?
I'm listening to Bach over this video and am not regretting it.
My favortie video from you. You and youre brother are a good team!
3:02
Today: Mechanistic Understanding
Past: Lived Experience, Symbols
4:42 High/Low, Hot/Cold
14:39 Scientist
Such a great discussion. Thank you both so much for what you are doing!
Oh, you aimed right alright 1:07:05! Nov 2021 is when I get this vid on my feed and, suffice to say, I've subscribed. Glad to learn - mostly for humanity - that "Mat-yeuh" got his book out; will pick it up shortly. Meanwhile, I'm going to check out all your vids Jonathan - at least all the Bible-themed ones. If this vid is anything to go by, I believe all of the others will have the right tone and intent, too. (Well in advance) thank you for creating all this content.
Matthieu, how you pressed in the final 5 mins, addressing intoxication, an honest enquiry will bring fruit......you caught my attention ( paraphrase ) "intoxication" describes the quintessential momentum the garden. thankyou
Incredible video,
Explained everything with crystal clear clarity, cery impressive
It is an interesting way to see the effects of how language evolves. More and more precision can and does inhibit meaning. There's something lost when taxonomy increases society's vocabulary and one main idea is dispersed into more and more words. The precision itself is valuable, but this is dead on that something is lost trying to fish out the perfect 'modern' word to do a 1:1 comparison for an ancient story without realizing the thousands of years of mitosis involved with the original symbols.
Read diferent literature from diferent times and diferent countries, and if you can afford, learn other languages. Overtime, you´ll be able to detect the subtle whealt and nuances of meaning in words. E.g.: english "matter" derives directly from latin "mater" wich means mother. Scientific literature tends always to normalize and specify meaning by definition as a standart, but even then, the shift shall happens as paradigms change, letting litle trace behind of the original meaning. Literature, on the other way, tends generally to preserve and enrich the meaning of words. Or it was so until the XX century...
I understand some of this.. But I really need someone to explain to me in elementary terms exactly what he is saying.. I have listened to about 4 or 5 of his videos talking about symbolism and patterns, and I still can not completely grasp it.. I feel so stupid. He uses a lot of big words for me.. 😬
And I want SO badly to understand what he is saying! Can anyone help me?
On another note. How cool is it that Jonathan Pageau and Jordan Peterson share first and last initials? God sent them here for this very time, I do believe. Two very important souls for us humans to have in this day and time. ❤
Stories hold truths within them without being factually true, like Aesops fables, the scorpion and the frog.
It didn't really click for me until Matthieu defined symbolism as the unity of fact and meaning Hal way through the video. Now I feel like I have to rewatch the first half with that in mind to better comprehend what is being said.
Excellent video! I would love to watch follow up videos where the two of you focus discussion on particular symbols or stories to illustrate what you present here
Very useful video! Opened my eyes to many things. I would love to see you go through chapters/books of the Bible and explain the symbolism that you see 🙏.
Can't wait for you guys to do it again
Hey Jonathan, great video. It's comforting to hear that you came from a materialist interpretation because every religious person that I've ever known holds a materialist view, which is untenable today.
I had one question, and I hope it makes sense: Peterson has said that what matters is how you act based on what you "believe". Do literalists and symbolists "act out" the same conclusion from the bible, even though they see it differently? Or do symbolic interpretations lead to vastly different consequences for action? This assuming that the literalist will act out truthfully what he was taught, and that the symbolist follows the conclusions drawn from a deeper understanding.
Asking because if you say yes, then from my perspective, there's no immediate crisis, and the problem is relegated to smart people looking for answers. But if the answer's no, it seems like there's been a crisis of faith for the last 100 years. Thanks.
We need more! Thanks guys!
Super interesting video. I can't believe I have never heard this line of thinking before, because I think it makes a lot of sense. I'm still not 100% clear on the difference between Symbolism and Metaphor. So I would love you hear more from you guys in general, and hopefully the ideas will get more fleshed out.
Ah gotcha. That makes sense. So I dunno if other people feel the same as I do, but it's very refreshing to hear this view. While I have been watching some JBP, and now you guys, this is still a very new way of viewing these ideas for me. I feel like you guys have a lot of potential to discuss these ideas. Like you said, it may seem obvious to you, as you have been thinking about these things for a long time. But for someone like me, I need to start at square one.
Just a few ideas for further videos (in case you were trying to think of some):
- going more in depth on the idea of symbolism/metaphor vs. unlimited interpretation. You touched on it here, but I could use more info on that distinction.
- a history of the rise of materialism, and now its logical end. the idea that we have reached the rock bottom of materialism is super interesting to me. That's a BIG idea. And no one is talking about it
Hope this helps. Want to give you encouragement to keep going! Thanks.
guitarman2341 id like to see this too.
Great video. Not sure why I didn't find this sooner, I'll blame UA-cam. I think the core issue is that people, as they turned inwards for knowledge, arrogantly looked beyond the meaning of symbols to re-interpret what they were seeing into the materialistic lens. To be fair, materialism provided a lot of previously 'hidden' meaning. One issue I see is that I'm not sure what the difference between entropy and time is, or how anyone would prove they are different. So, they are both snake, which is a much better way to think about events.
I'm not sure I'm on board with your thoughts on Biblical stories. I think the fact that they are metaphors and learning to read them as such, is what gives them the power to act on multiple levels, each of those levels helps different people (who are all at different abilities and skills and training of understanding) come to a useful conclusion (if different) about the meaning of the story. Symbols may also serve this purpose, in other words, multiple meanings, leading to a useful conclusion for the person absorbing the symbol.
The emphasis on the hidden meaning only works in the context of materialism. This is the mistake these conspiracy interpreters make, overall. They also want shortcuts, after all, if you can shortcut a bridge by engineering it to conform to some minimal standard (thus ensuring it won't be around for hundreds of years, like a Roman Aqueduct) then you should be able to do that for enlightenment or spiritual fullfillment, etc. This view is of course false, but with materialism, I can see where it might arise.
Thanks for giving me a way to think about these topics.
Excellent. Thank you so much. I have searched much and this explained so much.
A helpful idea (that I learned when becoming a Catholic) is the distinction between literal and literalistic. The literal meaning is the meaning that the author/s intended to convey, in their context and to their audience in accord with the genre they believed best to communicate it. The literalistic approach is attempting to find the meaning using a misunderstanding of the original context (audience, language, culture etc). A good example is the phrase in English, "it was raining cats and dogs". The literalistic interpretation actually sees the cats and dogs falling from the sky. Whereas an English speaker knows that it means it was raining really really hard.
Mowing the grass, great example. I will have to remember that one for future use, with proper crediting of course.
I'm really trying to understand what is being said as I feel as though we do need to escape the Enlightenment/Rationalist view when reading the Bible, but at some point the material and the symbolic have to meet. For example, with Elijah -- okay, he symbolically went into heaven not into outer space, but I have a hard time thinking that even ancient people read this and thought he merely symbolically was taken up. If he wasn't "literally" taken into heaven, then was there a literal whirlwind? Were they even literal, physical people walking around in a historical sense?
For example, a semi-materialist reading would merely lead you to believe that he was being lifted up by angelic beings in some kind of tornado and perhaps vanished or was transported away. He left his mantle behind, and Elisha took it up and hit the Jordan river with it and it dried up so he could walk across.
A symbolic reading might be that there was a guy named Elijah that went to heights and like a father passing on, his protégé had to take up the "mantle" and continue in his place, but not before tearing off his own garments (ie, his current status) and the apprehension of his new mission for his life made a way for him in the chaos of uncertainty.
Ok, so maybe there is symbolic truth in a factual event, but obviously the supernatural is involved. So, how does a symbolic reading of Genesis make a literal reading impossible? If it's merely symbolic, what makes the Bible any better than the Bhagavad Gita? Is it better?
Yeah, wondering the same things
Oh Les deux frères Pageau! Salutations de Laval QC. Merci pour votre travail inspirant et instructif.
Thanks! This is a brilliant talk. I am not an expert in philosophy by any means , but to me it looks like a very interesting combination of phenomenology, platonism and Christianity. It’s a powerful mix that I got addicted to.
Definitely at the right level guys. Understood and enojoyed - I know barely anything about Symbolism.
I find it fascinating that Dante would have issued that "anti Literalistic" caveat about his own writings.... especially in light of the fact that many believers today have inherited a religious viewpoint that does exactly that - especially regarding their way of thinking about "heaven" and "hell" just to name two. I often ponder the statement of the author Flannery O'Conner in a letter to a friend that is often quoted in discussions about the Eucharist: "If the Eucharist is merely a symbol, then I say to hell with it". I really think she was using the word 'symbol' to mean 'metaphor'. Such a great discussion! Thank you!!
I agree with the Christiaan Coetzee comment, i.e. "I would love for you guys to delve into the actual symbols like a snake = time etc." and I would further like to hear more about your symbolic interpretation of Biblical events, and examples of how it was demonstrated to be valid.
I am so very new to this perspective, however I find it intriguing. For my taste I would say slow down. So much is being said.
I really appreciate your websites and discussions. As an artist I continually work with the basic quality of the metaphor (i.e.symbol). As you know, there are two parts: the "tenor", which is what one wishes to express, and the "vehicle," which is the object or word or formula that you use to express the tenor. As humans I believe we have the permission to assign meaning to "vehicles" as creative beings. But perhaps there are "vehicles" assigned meaning by our Creator
that are meant to remain as universals to administer to our souls. Actually any and all communication, whether word, deed, formula, or mathematical equation uses the character of the "metaphor"...some more basically understood than others.
44:22
From what I've understood
Man is the juncture between Heaven and Earth,
and what you're getting at here (why it's two sides of the same coin)
is - one group is saying it's all Heaven, separated from Earth,
the other is it's all Earth, separated from Heaven
this vid changed my life, it's crazy