I used four of these in northern WI, where the frost line is 5 feet deep. All 5 posts (which support trusses) have been raised 4-6 inches (over 6 years). However, the first winter caused the posts to move inches and have kept moving them up. They settle a little each summer but never return to the depth from which they began. It's a real problem. The cardboard tube has since rotten away. The soil is clay. I went 4 feet instead of 5 feet and am paying for it now.
Hmm. I'm also in Wisconsin but close to Madison. Dug my post holes a few inches over 5ft. Pouring patio around it shortly. Hoping to not have issues with heaves. Clay under mine too.
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The form tube, whether made of cardboard or plastic, is left in place to act as a "slip" joint, meaning that the frozen earth will slide up and down without attaching to the form material. It has nothing to do with the form itself sliding up and down. I've never heard of that, nor have I ever seen evidence of that. Some builders simply wrap plastic sheeting, such as polyethylene vapour barrier, around posts to act as a slip joint. My opinion, and likely best practice: Go below the frostline, or go home.
Yes, however that is always used in conjunction with proper piering below the frost line. Even seen that on helical metal piers, but its not going to help much if the pier is above the frost line. It may seem to work for x number of years, but sooner or later its going to start moving.
Hey Greg, In my area Sonotube are coated inside and outside with a wax from the maker. Also, in my area, utility companies take a pole and stick it into a deep and wide hole. Then they take small clean rock and pack around the pole. The idea is the gravel steadies the pole, but the pole can be slid out of the soil at a later time. Finally, if the pole is a support, like for a porch, you need a large concrete biscuit in the bottom of the hole. Otherwise, topweight will continue to push the pole into the soil. A concrete biscuit won't compact or separate.
i hear so much about frost line and i think for something like a fence, shed or single story deck it is a total pile of donkey crap. i built an 24 x 12 shed sitting on concrete blocks placed straight on the grass, no digging and 1n 10 years of new england winters it hasn't moved or shifted.
Drilling and placing the form below frost may not be enough to prevent upward heaving. Drainage is the key. Frost heaves have been known to behave in ways that are counter-intuitive. For instance, "ice lenses", which are the primary entity that cause heaving, can form around the column, attach themselves to it, and lift the column upward as they grow. They can also grow asymmetrically, and cause side to side movement. Once they form, nothing can be done to control them, as they can move with a force of 15-200 psi, which, depending on the size, is more than enough to move a whole building several inches, or put a significant crack in a basement slab. The only way to prevent heaving is to either control the temperature or the moisture content of the soil. Controlling the temperature is usually not an option, unless the structure is connected to a heated space and included within the interior thermal envelope. So, in general, preventing moisture accumulation is the key. Your solution of including gravel on all sides of the column is the best one we know. I would also include two more things, if possible: 1. A circular plane of gravel that extends a few inches horizontally away from the bottom layer, to keep as much of the water away from the bottom of the footing. 2. A bell shaped footing (search "bigfoot footing form") with four sections of rebar that extend from the top of the column down bent diagonally into the footing. This will help prevent upward and sideways motion during milder heaves. If you prevent water from collecting, usually, you can prevent heaving. Maybe this is overkill for a fence post, but it's becoming pretty standard for concrete column foundations, in general. Most of my research is based on an article from 1962 called "Ground Freezing and Frost Heaving" by E. Penner.
Just went through all the engineering for a 46x16 deck in NY, 42" frostline. Long and short of it is, there is no technological way to defeat mother earth when it comes to concrete piers. You can put a staight pier in, or a belled pier. Either way, if you are not below the frostline, they wirll both heave. A straight pier will heave from: A) the ground underneath the pier freezing, expanding, and pushing the pier from below. B) The ground around the pier column will start to freeze, expand up and sideways into the sides of the pier viselike, and as it rises it will pull the pier up with it. Trying to avoid this by putting a bell on the bottom of a short pier doesn't help, as it gives the earth below the pier more area against which to work and force the pier up, and does nothing to alleviate the lateral pressure along the sides as mentioned above. Its 2022, and I'm getting a Dingo with a 24" auger for $300/day to do 14 holes to 5' depth. If you have smaller piers, you can rent 16" towable auger from HD for $150/day. Trying to save a few bucks is normal, but doing it on your foundation is gonna hurt hard 2 years later when your structure is all wonky, uneven, or starts to break.
The design logic behind the bell end, is to get it down under the freeze line. It serves as the anchor for the cylindrical portion in the action zone. Of course if you placed the bell end or inverted cone in the action zone, it would have just given the action zone more purchase to grab and push on.
I used to work for a concrete products company where we poured concrete in smooth steel forms, coated with mould release compounds, specifically formulated to break the adhesion between the solidified concrete and the form. Without at least a 3° draft angle, it was very difficult to remove the concrete. With 0° draft, it was impossible to slide the concrete out of the form. In the case of 0°, we would design the forms to be disassembled, so we could peel (not slide) one side off at a time. We also used various brands of wax lined cardboard tubes (Sleek tube, Sauna Tube, etc) and even in fairly short lengths of 12" to 16", the concrete would not simply slide out. We usually cut part way through the cardboard with a circular saw and peel the tube off and sometimes even that was challenging.
I like it and thanks for sharing. I've never heard of mold release compounds and was wondering what or if they were used for structural construction footings.
Interesting. Not really surprising that a thin film of wax doesn't offer any protection when the concrete settles and pierces the barrier and drys/binds to the cardboard matrix, which also sucks up water easily.
You guys are complicating it way too much. The tube is simply there as a form ..thats it. Not a slip sleeve. Or anything else. Its there just to hold the concrete together as dirt is packed around it.
i have always thought the "sleeve" or sonotube was to make a smooth surface on the concrete pillar, mainly to add structural integrity as inconsistent surfaces are more apt to crack , the "waxy" surface inside these tubes is for moisture retention during the set up time. that plus I have never seen a building code that has a different depth for sono tubes.
I seems like PVC lined with cardboard would do the trick. The pressure would push the PVC up and this would easily break any bond between PVC and cardboard, The question is how far up can the PVC move before contacting the bottom of the fence and would the fence give or the PVC? Would a slot on either side of the PVC allow it to move up past the bottom of the fence without doing damage or being damaged? Could the PVC be hammered back down after winter when the soil is soggy?
I like the cardboard and PVC idea and think that would work quite well. However, don't know what the effects would be if the bottom of the footing wasn't below the frost line.
Seems like it might buy a little time, but eventually the post would get pushed up after the pvc sleeve got pushed up. Easier to just dig a little deeper in the first place.
@@YTubeSDD true, but just to be clear, how can the portion below the frost line serve as an anchor to offset the forces of most of the post above the frost line?
@@UsikuA Frost heave is most forceful from below a post that terminates above the frost line. Frost can produce forces that push and pull up posts by adhering to a post's vertical surfaces below grade, but the brunt of the force is from below.
Even if the sleeve comes up, a few inches should be enough to expose the concrete at the bottom and over time the soil will have enough grab on the naked concrete to push it up.
The sleeve idea makes no sense at all, even if it was on linear bearings relative to the concrete. If the soil can be kept very dry , then , even if it gets below freezing, there won't be any frost heaving. I live in a very dry area of Colorado (12" rain per year) even though clay heavy soil would be "expansive" there is no heaving because the sub soil is so dry.. . In other climates it would be very hard to keep most post holes dry... but in situations like mobile home "temp set" footers they can and should always be kept dry. A plastic full footprint 6 mil sheet works both for keeping the soil dry and keeping vapor from coming up from not fully dry soil form lingering under the belly of the structure. If possible grade the area and let the soil dry before laying the sheet. Def not always possible unfortunatley,
Would this still be an issue with the expanding foam that's used instead of concrete? Would the ground expansion squeeze the foam and then cause a gap between the foam and ground after the ground thaws?
It doesn't matter what is used as the pier. The concept is the same, you need something anchored in the not moving earth below the frostline to counteract the pier being pushed up by movement of heaving along the sides of the pier. A pier above the frostline not only has to resist that heaving while being squeezed by the earth around it, it also has to resist the earth freezing and heaving directly below the bottom of the pier trying to pop it directly up and out of the ground. Its actually pretty simple once you accept that water (mud) expands when freezing.
So in my theory i dig my hole as plum as i can to spec down to about 32 34 inches. Code calls 36 I then set a tube that is 24inches long 1inch above grade to prevent post rot. My bottoms are bigger than form, it conforms to the ground i have disturbed and i believe a bigger base is very important
Since there isn't a vertical load like there would be for installing a footing with a larger bottom section like you would find in a house foundation, I'm not sure you would need to have a larger section at the bottom, but it sure seems like it would create a stronger post.
Its a good idea, one many people have had. But its not going to work in most cases. Especially cardboard that is going to be wet and will freeze against the rough concrete and simply be along for the ride. In addition to the heaving from the sides, you also have heaving from the frostline directly below that short pier. So just as water turns to ice and cracks granite, water in mud freezing around and below that short pier will expand like a visegrip around that pier, and also will expand via freezing from under the pier directly and pop it up. The forces are truely massive. I'd thought of somehow using a plastic sleeve even greased or something, but that still won't work. Th
The freezing earth will expand and push against the pier and either crack the plastic, or of its something like HDPE, it will squeeze it tight against the concrete and again be along for the ride. I don't think anyone has found any reasonably economical way of avoid heaving aside from just digging below the frost line. If you have to put a pier in anways, going an extra 15-20 inches isn't really that much more expensive at that point. Inverted mushroom would actually be worse above the frostline as the earth freezing below the pier now has a larger surface area to bear against to push up.
I do wonder tho if the cardboard tube is designed more to be crushed with expansion but does it really ever swell back up. I think an up side down mushroom wood be best. But how is anyone ever going to pull that thing back out without digging 360 full depth
I think it would depend upon the amount of time and effort required per hole. If you can grab a fence post auger and drill a 5 foot hole in only a few minutes, then great, but a 3 foot hole that requires 1/2 hour, might be a different story.
Come dig in Ohio = Clay and rock let alone the tree roots. One hole 42" down can take 15 minutes with a two man auger or an hour or more as we hack away at the obstructions. You might not want to generalize in the future. Maybe you're using heavy equipment? I'm just a DIYer.
We all are like that when we first get into doing DIY. Then we realize the smartest thing is to go and rent a tool and do it right and in a timely fashion for a bit more money. I don't want to dig 45" to start to get below the frost line, nor spend the money to rent a post hole digger, etc. However, I don't want spend 10-15K on my deck or workshop, and 2-3 years down the road have an even bigger $ problem because I was too cheap to spend 3-400 on doing it right. And all along I heard from the experts on why they were doing it this or that way, yet let my innate cheapness override my logical common sense. At least thats how it works for me.
You seem to have a lot of knowledge on setting posts I was wondering if you could lend some advice. I dug out a large rotted post for a livestock gate and ended up with a massive hole in the ground probably allowing way more clearance and requiring way more concrete for the new 6" round post I'm planning to set in it's place. I'm thinking about using one of these sonotubes and backfilling around it so I don't have to use an ungodly amount of concrete unless there's another way that I'm just not thinking of.
Yes absolutely, that's a good idea. I actually use cardboard pieces as an alternative and here's a link if you want to try it. ua-cam.com/video/gC-O7iZnKRM/v-deo.html
This is an interesting concept. I have had success doing this twice but it has nothing to do with the tube moving- the idea is that because of the wax tube the ground can frost heave but it will not bring the concrete pile up with it. I live in northern Alberta where the frostline is 8 feet, which is a real impediment for any diy'er. A construction friend of mine told me I can get around this by using these tubes. I've built two decks using this method and the depth of my holes is around 3 feet. The first deck was 5 years old when I moved out and I never had any noticeable movement. I hit a rock on the middle piling so one of the 3 holes was only about 2 feet. My next deck was a larger 25x12 composite deck and that one is now 3 years old, and knock on wood ( or composite in this case) never had a problem. But again, the thinking is that the ground can move around the tube- I'm not clear why the pressure from underneath doesn't affect it but I do try to mushroom out the bottom of the hole and the put a couple inches of gravel- so the tube stops about 2-3 inches short of the bottom of the hole. I know a lot of people are pretty passionate about this "below the frostline" stuff , but when you think about the footing of a new construction bi-level house is only about 4 feet in the ground, which is well above the frost line.
If any of those ideas were really solid, the manf's would be selling them as thus, and the entire building industry would be able to avoid the most hated part of construction and one of the more costly and time consuming hassles.... Except for getting one over on the local planning dept, or taking the risk with personal property, or potentially screwing over the next person who buys your property, I guess one could do whatever they want. I really don't think the construction industry or builders are just doing this to pad out their billable hours/invoices. I'm in NY State, and have seen a lot of friends and family do general DIY stuff that seems to be fine for a number of years, frost heaving is not always happening every year in every place. However its not unusual for somethings to either start heaving the very next winter/spring, or get lucky and have nothing happen for several years and then out of the blue for it to start lifting or tilting. Thing is, you don't see that very often at all when piers or footers are dug below the frostline.
In my area the frost line is at 70 cm. In 20 years of digging in winter, with temperatures as low as -20 Celsius, the ground was never frozen beyond 30 cm. It kinda feels like a scam at this point
Bad thing of rule of thumb building codes .... is that what's good at place Y isn't so good in place Z. Also ... over time things may change. So has the local frost line changed ??? Who knows...
Most people don't know that the building department refers to studies and research taken over a long period of time, quite possibly over 100 years in some areas. These numbers don't come from average temperatures or average ground frost depths, but instead come from the maximum frost line depths ever recorded, if that helps.
@@gregvancom The official maps are from the the 70s, Eastern Europe. It's strange as communists were pretty precise about this. They probably did it for safety and now it's kept for commercial reasons. It's all pretty discouraging
And every 25-30 years come along winter weather that is unusually cold and long. Which means all the people who didn't follow code find their house foundations lifting and cracking, requiring them to be non-tentable until major structural repairs are completed, etc, etc. BTW, if you are complaining about basically needing 2 foot piers to reach the frostline, or 3 foot for pier depth, I really don't think anyone is going to feel too sorry for you. It doesn't get much better for many people in the world.
Frostline can change in our current climate woes! So, without a footer all will heave out, nothing to stop it (shape incorrect, should be bigger at bottom, conical). Guy put down steel barrels to below frostline under container, when barrels rusts away, a channel for water will create a heave, below the barrels. Whatever depth the barrel is under the frostline doesn’t matter as the gap will succumb to water’s relentless nature. Water accumulates under barrel, and when it freezes, heave ho! Sono tubes have footer accessories. However, now you can’t just drill a hole, but have to do it the old fashioned way! I would get a precast footer slightly larger than the tubes, drill a hole bigger to drop the footer down. Make hole, throw in stone for drainage, drop in footer with vertical rebar, place tube, backfill, tamp, and pour. Only difference is bigger hole, precast footers, and a little more backfill, but easier tamping I think. Just thinking!
The idea is that the soil has a hard time gripping the sides of the Sonotube or concrete compared to the sides of a post. Eventually the cardboard rots away and contributes to the lack of frost traction on the smooth concrete. Lubricant won't matter and will dissipate over time anyway. Also, I agree that gravel at the bottom of the post is not recommended. It creates a pocket for water to pool, which is what you don't want. The point of failure of a post decades down the road is almost always where the post comes out of the concrete or the ground.
I think this is wrong. If you can't go below frost line then you need a pyramid shape. The frost comes from the top down and puts pressure on the post from the sides. Upside down pyramid pushes it down for a while. But you really don't want movement up and down. You want to spend the extra effort and do it right - below the frost line and a bit extra.
Have you had any luck using an upside down pyramid shaped footing? Next up, try to avoid suggest someone is wrong with out suggesting why and adding a few facts to support your claims.
4:10 - Theres no way the sleeve will pop out, top of the sleeve will most likely be covered with cement or heavy dirty, that sleeve is not steel, it's paper and going to crush its self if it does go upwards. In some bad soil types that sleeve could possibly just rise out from the ground. The sleeve moving upward does seem like a good idea, i'm sure you can have engineers to specifically design something for this matter, like make a sleeve made from hard PVC plastic with notches or groves which allows water and soil to latch on and push it upwards... Not sure if it's a desirable thing.
If you are going to be using tube and don't want to dig 5 feet down, wrap the tube with 6 mil poly so the poly will slip. Better to not use tube, dig 3 feet down, dig a bulb at bottom of hole so soil on top will hold it down. Put post directly in concrete poured into soils.
Your opinion Please. My Contractor poured the Deck Supports 36” Deep by 18” wide in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania. The 6”x 6” posts are mounted on stainless steel Brackets. I am trusting that I won’t have a freezing/expansion problem.
If only you could dig a hole where the bottom was wider than the top, not tapered as much as a wide stepped disc on the bottom to anchor it into the soil, I wonder if that would work.
If you use a post hole digger like a bobcat attachment it actually makes the top of the hole larger than the bottom. This is what grabs the top of the soil when it freezes. Sonotubes helps this out immensely. All my holes I dug with a bobcat attachment and didn't use sonotubes heaved....none of the sonontubes ones did.
@@truckguy6.7 ever had any issues stemming from freeze action? Did your sonotube take up the entire depth of the hole or you only took them down to 4'? Any small rock in the bottom of your holes?
Even if the paper tube is not lubed, the upward force will be too strong for the paper to hold on..With gravels around the post, it will be shaking loose due to loose surrounding support.
Wow, that nothing! Look, 48” deep in cold climates but a fence post or pole barn, use the standard cardboard tube, dig 4-6” deeper, fill some drainage gravel in the hole, then sharpen the end like a pencil. Yes! A couple of cuts to make a point will produce less surface area for frost to lift the post. Water settles deeper in some spots, you have bad cold winters, it happens. So unless you think you can pound it down, concrete or dirt (All the dirt goes back) then it is compacted. Still need drainage and less surface area for frost heeve. Take it from a farm kid who dug holes by hand, point the tip, gravel for drainage and they will be at the same height 50 years from now. 20 miles of fence doesn’t lye!
this is interesting, i have never pointed the post tip. are you saying no need for concrete just go well below the frost line and point the post tip and pack around with gravel and your good? the only problem i can see is sometimes longest post you can get isn't long enough.. and just thinking if you sharpen the tip it would have more surface area than a flat bottom. but maybe less pressure from the earth? thx.
@@justinsfootprint It was my job as oldest and tall for my age, but I can tell you the fence is still there after 45+ years. Diggers have 48” handles to gauge depth, plus code if it’s a foundation in frost zones 5,6,7. Yes, go 50” inches, add 2” of gravel. Cutting the post bottom may expose more new wood but remember, this ice/soil combo push on less surface area and can slide up sides instead of 4-7” round flat bottom. It provides drainage so ice does not form to push. Place post in to correct height and plumb with bubble level. Toss some dirt in the hole and start with a skinny bar or spade. Once you get up 6” or more, it will stay. We had a length of pipe, railroad pry bar or 2X4” that will fit because hole is always bigger than the post (We used hedge post / purchased from a farmer / sometimes Osage Orange wood) but 2 scoops and tamp, 2 scoops and tamp. You compress the soil more that it is simple found in nature that deep. So check for plumb as you went but scoop and tamp. Once done and a couple of scoops left over, I always placed the soil around the post then stomped on it with my boot heel. If it left a cone around post, water would shed, dirt may settle but you had that much extra around it. I was young and knew I would get the belt so always tried to repeat exactly on each one. Beside, if you place the post 8-10’ apart, how many per mile? You could not afford that much bagged concrete. No water, sand or gravel anyways in the middle of field far from everything. Once the barb wire was spaced from top down, we would walk until spool was empty. Repeat until done. We used two 2” X 6” boards, marked spots or witness marks from before, put washers on both sides of bolts and tightened. Hook to tractor or truck and pull tight. With leather pouch on tool belt full of staples and hammer, we started at end the positioned the wire in equal divisions and hammered the staples in. The last two post or termination at gate, it was common to add angled post from bottom to top of last post. Then run a loop around upper 2/3rd, place broken / cut post between and twist. The key was to off center the twist brace as it tightens that last post, place the long end over diagonal post to catch and hold. This completes the end bracing. On simple barb gate, wrap wire at top and bottom then roll onto itself tight. Place upright in gate area, loop wire on one end of choice to make pivot. On closing end, reach about 3-4” away and use a 3-4’ length of post tied with wire at top. This is you mechanical lever. As you pull it tightens to allow a double loop of barbed wire to hold top and another a bottom. It is much easier to staple bottom wire in 3 equal spots so it stood straight out a few inches off the ground. Place you gate post into its loop, pinch the top near closed, then use the short post at top as a fulcrum to pull tight. Now drop last double loop over it to close. Just let the fulcrum post hang or prop it to hang down. Since wired, it can’t go far. What I found cool was central to western Kansas or Nebraska as the used quarried sandstone post. Never worked with them or understood if they wrapped the wire around the post or what fastened them. But they said these would last 200+ years. Hope this makes sense and helps but I don’t use concrete on wood fence in the back yard. It might work for skinny round plies used on chain link fence. Some called “Cyclone” fence, but I think that was a popular brand years back.
@@gregvancom well, in order to have a formed top. Leaving the entire tube on the cement is going to automatically set a fence post up for failure. As the cardboard degrades you’ll have a gap for water and even worse the cardboard expands when wet and then if it freezes it will expand even more. If you use just a long enough section to form the top of the poor you’ll be able to cut the tubing and pull it away.
I haven't heard of many people if any who've used them above the frostline and not had heave. I haven't looked, but I'm willing to bet Sono corp does not recommend that or warranty that.
I’m considering building a gate but I want to make it so the post will be easy to remove and put back in should you require more room temporarily. Is there such a sleeve?
It's not always a good idea to use something like this on a gate, because the post can move or wiggle back and forth and sometimes this will make the gate difficult to use. I don't know of any sleeves, but maybe you can ask someone at your local lumberyard.
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I used four of these in northern WI, where the frost line is 5 feet deep. All 5 posts (which support trusses) have been raised 4-6 inches (over 6 years). However, the first winter caused the posts to move inches and have kept moving them up. They settle a little each summer but never return to the depth from which they began. It's a real problem. The cardboard tube has since rotten away. The soil is clay. I went 4 feet instead of 5 feet and am paying for it now.
Thanks for your comment, I am about to build a pool deck and I was planning on cheating the depth (3 ft in NJ) . I guess 3 ft will be!
I don’t think you’d have that problem if you had well draining sandy soil. The clay is the bigger problem vs the frost depth. No water no heaving
Hmm. I'm also in Wisconsin but close to Madison. Dug my post holes a few inches over 5ft. Pouring patio around it shortly. Hoping to not have issues with heaves. Clay under mine too.
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🔴 It also teaches that God is nothing like a human being or like anything that we can imagine.
🌍 The concept of God is summarized in the Quran as:
📖 { “Say, He is God, the One. God, the Absolute. He does not give birth, nor was He born, and there is nothing like Him.”} (Quran 112:1-4) 📚
🔴 Becoming a Muslim is not turning your back to Jesus.
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The form tube, whether made of cardboard or plastic, is left in place to act as a "slip" joint, meaning that the frozen earth will slide up and down without attaching to the form material. It has nothing to do with the form itself sliding up and down. I've never heard of that, nor have I ever seen evidence of that. Some builders simply wrap plastic sheeting, such as polyethylene vapour barrier, around posts to act as a slip joint. My opinion, and likely best practice: Go below the frostline, or go home.
Yes, however that is always used in conjunction with proper piering below the frost line. Even seen that on helical metal piers, but its not going to help much if the pier is above the frost line. It may seem to work for x number of years, but sooner or later its going to start moving.
Most people that do this is already home...in THEIR YARD!!
Hey Greg, In my area Sonotube are coated inside and outside with a wax from the maker. Also, in my area, utility companies take a pole and stick it into a deep and wide hole. Then they take small clean rock and pack around the pole. The idea is the gravel steadies the pole, but the pole can be slid out of the soil at a later time. Finally, if the pole is a support, like for a porch, you need a large concrete biscuit in the bottom of the hole. Otherwise, topweight will continue to push the pole into the soil. A concrete biscuit won't compact or separate.
Thanks for the great information. For a fence post with out a lot of weight, you could end up with frozen ground pushing it up still.
i hear so much about frost line and i think for something like a fence, shed or single story deck it is a total pile of donkey crap. i built an 24 x 12 shed sitting on concrete blocks placed straight on the grass, no digging and 1n 10 years of new england winters it hasn't moved or shifted.
Drilling and placing the form below frost may not be enough to prevent upward heaving. Drainage is the key. Frost heaves have been known to behave in ways that are counter-intuitive. For instance, "ice lenses", which are the primary entity that cause heaving, can form around the column, attach themselves to it, and lift the column upward as they grow. They can also grow asymmetrically, and cause side to side movement. Once they form, nothing can be done to control them, as they can move with a force of 15-200 psi, which, depending on the size, is more than enough to move a whole building several inches, or put a significant crack in a basement slab.
The only way to prevent heaving is to either control the temperature or the moisture content of the soil. Controlling the temperature is usually not an option, unless the structure is connected to a heated space and included within the interior thermal envelope. So, in general, preventing moisture accumulation is the key.
Your solution of including gravel on all sides of the column is the best one we know. I would also include two more things, if possible:
1. A circular plane of gravel that extends a few inches horizontally away from the bottom layer, to keep as much of the water away from the bottom of the footing.
2. A bell shaped footing (search "bigfoot footing form") with four sections of rebar that extend from the top of the column down bent diagonally into the footing. This will help prevent upward and sideways motion during milder heaves.
If you prevent water from collecting, usually, you can prevent heaving.
Maybe this is overkill for a fence post, but it's becoming pretty standard for concrete column foundations, in general. Most of my research is based on an article from 1962 called "Ground Freezing and Frost Heaving" by E. Penner.
Thanks for the information and I will take a look at the article even though it from the same year I was born:)
Makes sense. I don't believe drainage can be over-addressed. Wherever a person lives, it's job 1.
Just went through all the engineering for a 46x16 deck in NY, 42" frostline.
Long and short of it is, there is no technological way to defeat mother earth when it comes to concrete piers.
You can put a staight pier in, or a belled pier. Either way, if you are not below the frostline, they wirll both heave.
A straight pier will heave from:
A) the ground underneath the pier freezing, expanding, and pushing the pier from below.
B) The ground around the pier column will start to freeze, expand up and sideways into the sides of the pier viselike, and as it rises it will pull the pier up with it.
Trying to avoid this by putting a bell on the bottom of a short pier doesn't help, as it gives the earth below the pier more area against which to work and force the pier up, and does nothing to alleviate the lateral pressure along the sides as mentioned above.
Its 2022, and I'm getting a Dingo with a 24" auger for $300/day to do 14 holes to 5' depth. If you have smaller piers, you can rent 16" towable auger from HD for $150/day. Trying to save a few bucks is normal, but doing it on your foundation is gonna hurt hard 2 years later when your structure is all wonky, uneven, or starts to break.
Great advice.
The design logic behind the bell end, is to get it down under the freeze line. It serves as the anchor for the cylindrical portion in the action zone. Of course if you placed the bell end or inverted cone in the action zone, it would have just given the action zone more purchase to grab and push on.
or just build the deck on concrete deck blocks on the surface. never ever seen a problem wit these except from building inspectors.
Seems like an inverted mushroom shaped footing should stop frost from squeezing the post up. But what do I know, I let everything float on the surface
You still have to dig out the bottom wider then the sleeve and fill it with 6inches of gravle to had an anchor
Why not just leave the sonotube and let it decay. soil fills in. .
I used to work for a concrete products company where we poured concrete in smooth steel forms, coated with mould release compounds, specifically formulated to break the adhesion between the solidified concrete and the form. Without at least a 3° draft angle, it was very difficult to remove the concrete.
With 0° draft, it was impossible to slide the concrete out of the form. In the case of 0°, we would design the forms to be disassembled, so we could peel (not slide) one side off at a time. We also used various brands of wax lined cardboard tubes (Sleek tube, Sauna Tube, etc) and even in fairly short lengths of 12" to 16", the concrete would not simply slide out. We usually cut part way through the cardboard with a circular saw and peel the tube off and sometimes even that was challenging.
I like it and thanks for sharing. I've never heard of mold release compounds and was wondering what or if they were used for structural construction footings.
Interesting. Not really surprising that a thin film of wax doesn't offer any protection when the concrete settles and pierces the barrier and drys/binds to the cardboard matrix, which also sucks up water easily.
@@gregvancom Its as simple as diesel sprayed from a plastic 2g herbicide jug onto metal/wood forms for concrete construction.
You guys are complicating it way too much. The tube is simply there as a form ..thats it. Not a slip sleeve. Or anything else. Its there just to hold the concrete together as dirt is packed around it.
So why would we not use some sort of foam or compressible material around our concrete piles, which minimize the pressures on frost heaving
Even having a corrugation inside the concrete slave would make up a difference of frost expansion
If you can, email me or post your research here and I will take a look at it.
i have always thought the "sleeve" or sonotube was to make a smooth surface on the concrete pillar, mainly to add structural integrity as inconsistent surfaces are more apt to crack , the "waxy" surface inside these tubes is for moisture retention during the set up time. that plus I have never seen a building code that has a different depth for sono tubes.
The cardboard sleeves disintegrate within the first 3 years.
That was helpful info...
@@ShopperPlug Your Welcome
Exactly
That's not the purpose of the sleeve. It's simply a quick and easy circular form.
True to a point, but this does not mean you can't use other materials for a sleeve.
@@gregvancom I don't recall anyone claiming you can't. 🤔
I seems like PVC lined with cardboard would do the trick. The pressure would push the PVC up and this would easily break any bond between PVC and cardboard, The question is how far up can the PVC move before contacting the bottom of the fence and would the fence give or the PVC? Would a slot on either side of the PVC allow it to move up past the bottom of the fence without doing damage or being damaged? Could the PVC be hammered back down after winter when the soil is soggy?
I like the cardboard and PVC idea and think that would work quite well. However, don't know what the effects would be if the bottom of the footing wasn't below the frost line.
Seems like it might buy a little time, but eventually the post would get pushed up after the pvc sleeve got pushed up. Easier to just dig a little deeper in the first place.
@@YTubeSDD true, but just to be clear, how can the portion below the frost line serve as an anchor to offset the forces of most of the post above the frost line?
@@UsikuA Frost heave is most forceful from below a post that terminates above the frost line. Frost can produce forces that push and pull up posts by adhering to a post's vertical surfaces below grade, but the brunt of the force is from below.
PVC when it freezes it expands and cracks and breaks apart so if you live in a cold climate have fun fixing it every year after a cold winter.
Even if the sleeve comes up, a few inches should be enough to expose the concrete at the bottom and over time the soil will have enough grab on the naked concrete to push it up.
So how do you explain the boulder that moved from Jesus’s tomb/grave?? It was indeed divine intervention!
The sleeve idea makes no sense at all, even if it was on linear bearings relative to the concrete. If the soil can be kept very dry , then , even if it gets below freezing, there won't be any frost heaving. I live in a very dry area of Colorado (12" rain per year) even though clay heavy soil would be "expansive" there is no heaving because the sub soil is so dry.. . In other climates it would be very hard to keep most post holes dry... but in situations like mobile home "temp set" footers they can and should always be kept dry. A plastic full footprint 6 mil sheet works both for keeping the soil dry and keeping vapor from coming up from not fully dry soil form lingering under the belly of the structure. If possible grade the area and let the soil dry before laying the sheet. Def not always possible unfortunatley,
Would this still be an issue with the expanding foam that's used instead of concrete? Would the ground expansion squeeze the foam and then cause a gap between the foam and ground after the ground thaws?
It doesn't matter what is used as the pier. The concept is the same, you need something anchored in the not moving earth below the frostline to counteract the pier being pushed up by movement of heaving along the sides of the pier. A pier above the frostline not only has to resist that heaving while being squeezed by the earth around it, it also has to resist the earth freezing and heaving directly below the bottom of the pier trying to pop it directly up and out of the ground. Its actually pretty simple once you accept that water (mud) expands when freezing.
So in my theory i dig my hole as plum as i can to spec down to about 32 34 inches. Code calls 36 I then set a tube that is 24inches long 1inch above grade to prevent post rot. My bottoms are bigger than form, it conforms to the ground i have disturbed and i believe a bigger base is very important
Since there isn't a vertical load like there would be for installing a footing with a larger bottom section like you would find in a house foundation, I'm not sure you would need to have a larger section at the bottom, but it sure seems like it would create a stronger post.
Its a good idea, one many people have had. But its not going to work in most cases. Especially cardboard that is going to be wet and will freeze against the rough concrete and simply be along for the ride. In addition to the heaving from the sides, you also have heaving from the frostline directly below that short pier. So just as water turns to ice and cracks granite, water in mud freezing around and below that short pier will expand like a visegrip around that pier, and also will expand via freezing from under the pier directly and pop it up. The forces are truely massive. I'd thought of somehow using a plastic sleeve even greased or something, but that still won't work. Th
The freezing earth will expand and push against the pier and either crack the plastic, or of its something like HDPE, it will squeeze it tight against the concrete and again be along for the ride.
I don't think anyone has found any reasonably economical way of avoid heaving aside from just digging below the frost line. If you have to put a pier in anways, going an extra 15-20 inches isn't really that much more expensive at that point. Inverted mushroom would actually be worse above the frostline as the earth freezing below the pier now has a larger surface area to bear against to push up.
I do wonder tho if the cardboard tube is designed more to be crushed with expansion but does it really ever swell back up. I think an up side down mushroom wood be best. But how is anyone ever going to pull that thing back out without digging 360 full depth
If you pour the concrete below the frost line will it not move?
why are people always trying to get around digging below frost line? its not that difficult, lol
I think it would depend upon the amount of time and effort required per hole. If you can grab a fence post auger and drill a 5 foot hole in only a few minutes, then great, but a 3 foot hole that requires 1/2 hour, might be a different story.
Come dig in Ohio = Clay and rock let alone the tree roots. One hole 42" down can take 15 minutes with a two man auger or an hour or more as we hack away at the obstructions. You might not want to generalize in the future. Maybe you're using heavy equipment? I'm just a DIYer.
We all are like that when we first get into doing DIY. Then we realize the smartest thing is to go and rent a tool and do it right and in a timely fashion for a bit more money. I don't want to dig 45" to start to get below the frost line, nor spend the money to rent a post hole digger, etc. However, I don't want spend 10-15K on my deck or workshop, and 2-3 years down the road have an even bigger $ problem because I was too cheap to spend 3-400 on doing it right. And all along I heard from the experts on why they were doing it this or that way, yet let my innate cheapness override my logical common sense.
At least thats how it works for me.
@@gregvancom iij
You seem to have a lot of knowledge on setting posts I was wondering if you could lend some advice. I dug out a large rotted post for a livestock gate and ended up with a massive hole in the ground probably allowing way more clearance and requiring way more concrete for the new 6" round post I'm planning to set in it's place. I'm thinking about using one of these sonotubes and backfilling around it so I don't have to use an ungodly amount of concrete unless there's another way that I'm just not thinking of.
Yes absolutely, that's a good idea. I actually use cardboard pieces as an alternative and here's a link if you want to try it.
ua-cam.com/video/gC-O7iZnKRM/v-deo.html
This is an interesting concept. I have had success doing this twice but it has nothing to do with the tube moving- the idea is that because of the wax tube the ground can frost heave but it will not bring the concrete pile up with it. I live in northern Alberta where the frostline is 8 feet, which is a real impediment for any diy'er. A construction friend of mine told me I can get around this by using these tubes. I've built two decks using this method and the depth of my holes is around 3 feet. The first deck was 5 years old when I moved out and I never had any noticeable movement. I hit a rock on the middle piling so one of the 3 holes was only about 2 feet. My next deck was a larger 25x12 composite deck and that one is now 3 years old, and knock on wood ( or composite in this case) never had a problem. But again, the thinking is that the ground can move around the tube- I'm not clear why the pressure from underneath doesn't affect it but I do try to mushroom out the bottom of the hole and the put a couple inches of gravel- so the tube stops about 2-3 inches short of the bottom of the hole. I know a lot of people are pretty passionate about this "below the frostline" stuff , but when you think about the footing of a new construction bi-level house is only about 4 feet in the ground, which is well above the frost line.
I guess if there was enough wax on the outside or additional lubricants it might work.
If any of those ideas were really solid, the manf's would be selling them as thus, and the entire building industry would be able to avoid the most hated part of construction and one of the more costly and time consuming hassles.... Except for getting one over on the local planning dept, or taking the risk with personal property, or potentially screwing over the next person who buys your property, I guess one could do whatever they want. I really don't think the construction industry or builders are just doing this to pad out their billable hours/invoices. I'm in NY State, and have seen a lot of friends and family do general DIY stuff that seems to be fine for a number of years, frost heaving is not always happening every year in every place. However its not unusual for somethings to either start heaving the very next winter/spring, or get lucky and have nothing happen for several years and then out of the blue for it to start lifting or tilting.
Thing is, you don't see that very often at all when piers or footers are dug below the frostline.
In my area the frost line is at 70 cm. In 20 years of digging in winter, with temperatures as low as -20 Celsius, the ground was never frozen beyond 30 cm. It kinda feels like a scam at this point
Bad thing of rule of thumb building codes .... is that what's good at place Y isn't so good in place Z.
Also ... over time things may change. So has the local frost line changed ??? Who knows...
Most people don't know that the building department refers to studies and research taken over a long period of time, quite possibly over 100 years in some areas. These numbers don't come from average temperatures or average ground frost depths, but instead come from the maximum frost line depths ever recorded, if that helps.
@@gregvancom The official maps are from the the 70s, Eastern Europe. It's strange as communists were pretty precise about this. They probably did it for safety and now it's kept for commercial reasons. It's all pretty discouraging
And every 25-30 years come along winter weather that is unusually cold and long. Which means all the people who didn't follow code find their house foundations lifting and cracking, requiring them to be non-tentable until major structural repairs are completed, etc, etc.
BTW, if you are complaining about basically needing 2 foot piers to reach the frostline, or 3 foot for pier depth, I really don't think anyone is going to feel too sorry for you. It doesn't get much better for many people in the world.
@@boots7859 ...
Frostline can change in our current climate woes! So, without a footer all will heave out, nothing to stop it (shape incorrect, should be bigger at bottom, conical). Guy put down steel barrels to below frostline under container, when barrels rusts away, a channel for water will create a heave, below the barrels. Whatever depth the barrel is under the frostline doesn’t matter as the gap will succumb to water’s relentless nature. Water accumulates under barrel, and when it freezes, heave ho!
Sono tubes have footer accessories. However, now you can’t just drill a hole, but have to do it the old fashioned way! I would get a precast footer slightly larger than the tubes, drill a hole bigger to drop the footer down. Make hole, throw in stone for drainage, drop in footer with vertical rebar, place tube, backfill, tamp, and pour. Only difference is bigger hole, precast footers, and a little more backfill, but easier tamping I think. Just thinking!
The idea is that the soil has a hard time gripping the sides of the Sonotube or concrete compared to the sides of a post. Eventually the cardboard rots away and contributes to the lack of frost traction on the smooth concrete. Lubricant won't matter and will dissipate over time anyway.
Also, I agree that gravel at the bottom of the post is not recommended. It creates a pocket for water to pool, which is what you don't want. The point of failure of a post decades down the road is almost always where the post comes out of the concrete or the ground.
I think this is wrong. If you can't go below frost line then you need a pyramid shape. The frost comes from the top down and puts pressure on the post from the sides. Upside down pyramid pushes it down for a while. But you really don't want movement up and down. You want to spend the extra effort and do it right - below the frost line and a bit extra.
Have you had any luck using an upside down pyramid shaped footing? Next up, try to avoid suggest someone is wrong with out suggesting why and adding a few facts to support your claims.
4:10 - Theres no way the sleeve will pop out, top of the sleeve will most likely be covered with cement or heavy dirty, that sleeve is not steel, it's paper and going to crush its self if it does go upwards. In some bad soil types that sleeve could possibly just rise out from the ground. The sleeve moving upward does seem like a good idea, i'm sure you can have engineers to specifically design something for this matter, like make a sleeve made from hard PVC plastic with notches or groves which allows water and soil to latch on and push it upwards... Not sure if it's a desirable thing.
Never say no way.
If you are going to be using tube and don't want to dig 5 feet down, wrap the tube with 6 mil poly so the poly will slip. Better to not use tube, dig 3 feet down, dig a bulb at bottom of hole so soil on top will hold it down. Put post directly in concrete poured into soils.
Your opinion Please. My Contractor poured the Deck Supports 36” Deep by 18” wide in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania. The 6”x 6” posts are mounted on stainless steel Brackets. I am trusting that I won’t have a freezing/expansion problem.
I would contact your local building department.
If only you could dig a hole where the bottom was wider than the top, not tapered as much as a wide stepped disc on the bottom to anchor it into the soil, I wonder if that would work.
If you use a post hole digger like a bobcat attachment it actually makes the top of the hole larger than the bottom. This is what grabs the top of the soil when it freezes. Sonotubes helps this out immensely. All my holes I dug with a bobcat attachment and didn't use sonotubes heaved....none of the sonontubes ones did.
@@truckguy6.7 how far down did you run your sonotubes into the ground below grade?
@@chrisharrell5945 4 feet
@@truckguy6.7 ever had any issues stemming from freeze action? Did your sonotube take up the entire depth of the hole or you only took them down to 4'? Any small rock in the bottom of your holes?
Even if the paper tube is not lubed, the upward force will be too strong for the paper to hold on..With gravels around the post, it will be shaking loose due to loose surrounding support.
Thanks for sharing and I could see your point.
If you use lubricant inside of sono tube wouldnt it freeze as well 😂
You would need to check the lubricant temperature for freezing.
Let's say the sleeve moves as intended, it will eventually leave the concrete in the soil which will face the same problem eventually.
Yes, that's why I used the word suggestion as a possibility or something to consider and thanks for sharing your thoughts. Good point.
LOL, excellent observation!
Wow, that nothing! Look, 48” deep in cold climates but a fence post or pole barn, use the standard cardboard tube, dig 4-6” deeper, fill some drainage gravel in the hole, then sharpen the end like a pencil. Yes! A couple of cuts to make a point will produce less surface area for frost to lift the post. Water settles deeper in some spots, you have bad cold winters, it happens. So unless you think you can pound it down, concrete or dirt (All the dirt goes back) then it is compacted. Still need drainage and less surface area for frost heeve. Take it from a farm kid who dug holes by hand, point the tip, gravel for drainage and they will be at the same height 50 years from now. 20 miles of fence doesn’t lye!
Sounds awesome and thanks for sharing.
this is interesting, i have never pointed the post tip. are you saying no need for concrete just go well below the frost line and point the post tip and pack around with gravel and your good? the only problem i can see is sometimes longest post you can get isn't long enough.. and just thinking if you sharpen the tip it would have more surface area than a flat bottom. but maybe less pressure from the earth? thx.
@@justinsfootprint It was my job as oldest and tall for my age, but I can tell you the fence is still there after 45+ years.
Diggers have 48” handles to gauge depth, plus code if it’s a foundation in frost zones 5,6,7. Yes, go 50” inches, add 2” of gravel. Cutting the post bottom may expose more new wood but remember, this ice/soil combo push on less surface area and can slide up sides instead of 4-7” round flat bottom. It provides drainage so ice does not form to push. Place post in to correct height and plumb with bubble level. Toss some dirt in the hole and start with a skinny bar or spade. Once you get up 6” or more, it will stay. We had a length of pipe, railroad pry bar or 2X4” that will fit because hole is always bigger than the post (We used hedge post / purchased from a farmer / sometimes Osage Orange wood) but 2 scoops and tamp, 2 scoops and tamp. You compress the soil more that it is simple found in nature that deep. So check for plumb as you went but scoop and tamp. Once done and a couple of scoops left over, I always placed the soil around the post then stomped on it with my boot heel. If it left a cone around post, water would shed, dirt may settle but you had that much extra around it. I was young and knew I would get the belt so always tried to repeat exactly on each one. Beside, if you place the post 8-10’ apart, how many per mile? You could not afford that much bagged concrete. No water, sand or gravel anyways in the middle of field far from everything. Once the barb wire was spaced from top down, we would walk until spool was empty. Repeat until done. We used two 2” X 6” boards, marked spots or witness marks from before, put washers on both sides of bolts and tightened. Hook to tractor or truck and pull tight. With leather pouch on tool belt full of staples and hammer, we started at end the positioned the wire in equal divisions and hammered the staples in. The last two post or termination at gate, it was common to add angled post from bottom to top of last post. Then run a loop around upper 2/3rd, place broken / cut post between and twist. The key was to off center the twist brace as it tightens that last post, place the long end over diagonal post to catch and hold. This completes the end bracing. On simple barb gate, wrap wire at top and bottom then roll onto itself tight. Place upright in gate area, loop wire on one end of choice to make pivot. On closing end, reach about 3-4” away and use a 3-4’ length of post tied with wire at top. This is you mechanical lever. As you pull it tightens to allow a double loop of barbed wire to hold top and another a bottom. It is much easier to staple bottom wire in 3 equal spots so it stood straight out a few inches off the ground. Place you gate post into its loop, pinch the top near closed, then use the short post at top as a fulcrum to pull tight. Now drop last double loop over it to close. Just let the fulcrum post hang or prop it to hang down. Since wired, it can’t go far.
What I found cool was central to western Kansas or Nebraska as the used quarried sandstone post. Never worked with them or understood if they wrapped the wire around the post or what fastened them. But they said these would last 200+ years.
Hope this makes sense and helps but I don’t use concrete on wood fence in the back yard. It might work for skinny round plies used on chain link fence. Some called “Cyclone” fence, but I think that was a popular brand years back.
I am building a pavilion with 8x8 posts. What size footers (diameter) should I use?
You might need to contact an engineer.
From what I know, your only supposed to put the sleeve a few inches below ground level.
What would be the reasons for that?
@@gregvancom well, in order to have a formed top. Leaving the entire tube on the cement is going to automatically set a fence post up for failure. As the cardboard degrades you’ll have a gap for water and even worse the cardboard expands when wet and then if it freezes it will expand even more. If you use just a long enough section to form the top of the poor you’ll be able to cut the tubing and pull it away.
Sonotubes have a waxy coat on the outside of the sleeve to help prevent frost heave. Don't ask me how it works, it doesn't make sense to me.
I haven't heard of many people if any who've used them above the frostline and not had heave. I haven't looked, but I'm willing to bet Sono corp does not recommend that or warranty that.
I’m considering building a gate but I want to make it so the post will be easy to remove and put back in should you require more room temporarily. Is there such a sleeve?
It's not always a good idea to use something like this on a gate, because the post can move or wiggle back and forth and sometimes this will make the gate difficult to use. I don't know of any sleeves, but maybe you can ask someone at your local lumberyard.
You could try using a steel post anchor in the concrete and bolt your wood post to it.
Now the earth is berthing rocks, how about the cement sleeve layout?
I don't understand the question, if there actually is a question, feel free to provide me with more details.
Meaning get to the point already