Being from a country where this is a very common problem (Norway), its surprising to read the comments, and all the strange suggestion. The solution to this is common knowledge here, and very easy. You just insulate beneath, on the sides and around the foundation. There are tables on how far out from the foundation the insulation should be, but typically 1,2m. The colder in the winter, the thicker insulation you need. Many suggest to add gravel around the foundation, and thats good, but you also need insulation in this case. The frost will penetrate much more easily through gravel, so the frost depth will be that much grater. Also add a 10 to 20 cm layer of gravel beneath the foundation for draining of water. For more important buildings, like a house, drain pipes are also added to clear the ground water. The strange comments are of course understandable for people who dont live in very cold climates and dont have this problem. Greath video from my favourite youtuber as always.
Hi Ola, Could you please share the link to the table? I could find some information on subbase protection not on side protection. can I use thermocol for the side?
@@rameshr827 Hello! The tables we have in Norway only applies to Norway. And there are different values in regards to where you live. Eg where I live, its medium cold, it seldom gets below -20 deg celsius in the winter. It also depends upon the ground conditions. Typpically where I live to, insulate around the house for frost heaving, its 600mm out from the foundation and 900mm at the corners of the foundation. The thickness is 50mm. But for a much colder place, eg Røros, you need about 2000mm and 100mm thickness. So you need to check the tables in regards to where you live.
@@olaaunelefstad195 I am from UK. laying foundation in December. Most of the builders are not used to laying foundation in winter here. I need to specify the requirements. As per recommendations, I asked builder to lay 100mm gravel/recycled concrete subbase. I w want to have thermocol or some side protection, not sure which one , can I have eps? I am planning to cover the ground with blanket before and after the work. Will have industrial fans to keep the foundation hole warm prior to the work
@@rameshr827 As mentioned above Im no expert. So I dont feel comfortable giving any advice for specific projects. I dint think there was any problems with frost heaving in the UK, due to relatively warm climates? I think its best to contact a local engineer who knows about the requirements in your country. Sorry Im not vert helpfull, but Im a structural steel engineer, and dont have an in dept knowledge about insulation, especially not in the UK. Again, sorry!
This isn't a worry for me as I'm only creating a slab a few inches thick at the base of my deck to stop the dogs from tearing up the lawn and tracking mud, but this was great information for me to stop me from worrying my OCD. Thanks for the explanation. I took physics before so this was what I was expecting, but it's nice to hear this from experience instead of theory. I wish everybody was required to take physics. People act like it is hard, but everybody already knows so much of it. It just adds explanations to what you see happening around you every day of your life, but it makes life so much easier.
Matthias. Your clear approach to all sorts of physical phenomena always confirms my opinion of you great intellect. Thanks for this. I am planning to build soon, and will be using 2" insulation down to the footings. Smooth and slightly trapezoidal, as the concrete will push out laterally the deeper it is.
oh its so much fun when you try and build anything, the frost table here in NY is 50 inches, so if you want to build any structure that will last you have to sink your posts deeper than 50 inches.
Every foundation we build in Wisconsin is based on what frost does when it gets 48" deep, which is a normal winter here. In the winter of 2011-12, we had a solid week to 10 days of winter temps around -20°F. Frost was driven down to 72" to 84" below grade in areas that were clear of snow. Roads mostly, but also any areas that were plowed along buildings for access. Water and sewer lines were freezing in places where it typically never does.
haha, i have a boathouse at my cottage build like this and the deck is at SO much of an angle right now, it's been pushed up for about 45+ years. now i know how to fix it! thanks! but it will be alot of work
My dad actually had a problem like this with a concrete base laid out just outside of his company in order to make the ground smoother. The base got lifted to the point that the door became impossible to open for the remainder of the winter, though fortunately there's an equally big side door that could be used instead if less conveniently. This had never happened before despite the block having been there since the place was renovated years ago so I guess the ground had indeed shifted.
My ground moves 6" in the summer and then it moves 6" in the winter. Will this way of diging and putting new stumps in under the floor boards stop the house from moving?
So what if you did the same thing with a basement? After poring the foundation you added a slight concrete slope (maybe 15 degrees or so?) would that stop frost heaving and maybe even cracks in the basement walls?
nice explanation, i always thought that freezing would contract the soil, but it actually expands it and pushes the foundation up, like squeezing a watermelon seed
@PsychoticSnake Given enough time with improperly shaped sides, yes. Stones are heaving up in pasture lands here in the Alps every spring. There are centuries old piles of stones that dairy farmers in this region have added to over a millennium.
Based on your cabin vid, I would use a jack and put in cribbing on each side of the work area. After the old pier is out, I would then dig a wide enough hole for a footing below the frost line and put in rebar to where it bends up to your pier location. This will lock in the pier to your footing. Your wood form should be removable. Most people just use form oil. Grouted CMU pier blocks might work better for your pier given the tight working conditions. There are many ways to skin a cat for sure. My parents carriage house is doing this too. I will be helping out soon.
If you have already formed pilasters shaped this way, you can set them in oversized holes & back fill, perhaps some gravel large & small around them might also be an advantage?...I wouldn't think you'd have to make the hole that shape. am I right Matthias?
I don't know if anyone suggested that possibility already, but for my house we have an additional drainage of about 3-10cm big stones about half a meter wide next to the insulation of my basement to avoid any frost pressure building up at the insulation. When water is able to freely get away from right next to the building/foundation while it is liquid, it will not cause any problems when frost comes, because the water is basically gone. I would build this pillows not with a slope, but a straight edge, make a foot at the bottom that doesn't need side support for stability (so it has to be wide enough, but the wide shape you draw here would work as well, so maybe doing the foundation you suggested, but don't fill the hole up with soil, but with drainage material) and fill the surrounding of the foundation for about half a meter or 1 1/2 foot with drainage material to avoid frost right at the foundation alltogether. It is an additional step and you need additional material on site, but might be a cheap and durable solution to the problem.
@ktekx Not with undisturbed solid soil underneath. Just making vertical sides to a foundation is good enough. It's well known among foundation builders that one cannot just dig a trench and pour a foundation in places that freeze. I've never heard of anyone going to the trouble of making tapered sides though.
the soil, clay moves 6" a year under the house. my plaster cracks and the floor has moved and the floor is not level. Also my concrete floor in my gararge has cracked. will your idea in the video work if I restump my house?
A usual foundation is an upside down T with a footer about .45m wide and the main upright portion 5cm to 8 cm wide. Placing the footer below normal frost level means it won't be lifted and the weight of the ground actually holds it down. The cheap blocks you can buy aren't really meant for buildings mostly decks an such that heaving doesn't trash. Oh and add rebar in the crete. PS I enjoy most of your videos despite being impatient at wood working.
So what your saying is, frost depth means absolutely nothing? I could dig 2 feet or 20 feet below frost because the top frozen foot is picking up the footing.
I would dig a hole next to the existing foundation and place a concrete pier tube into the hole backfill with dirt around the tube and fill the tube with concrete. A Bracket then goes on top of the pier once its dry and then you can use lumber to fill the space above the pier to the bottom of the beam. The good thing about the concrete tubes is that they are just cardboard and you can leave them and they will dissolve. I'd check with your local supplier to see what size tube they would recommend.
Seems plausible. My guess is you're meant to compact the ground beneath. If you think about it, the existence of the cottage presses down on the foundation.
Maybe augur holes and use straight pillars packed with sand around them. I am reading further and gravel is recommended as it has no capillary action. It may work but my fear with gravel is that it may causing stemming which tightens in the hold and allows force to work against its outside. Perhaps not a real problem...
the key to survive frost heaving is minimal surface area, not much for the frost to push up, a pier foundation is best. It will keep your structure level and give some wiggle room so to speak, the ground around it can swell a bit but still not bother your structure. Just remember to sink your piers below the frost table. For instance here in NY the frost table is 50 inches, so i have to dig at least a 56 inch hole to pour my concrete for my piers. Then stick in my 4x4 posts. it's more work but in the end you have a very secure structure.
Actually, the piles won't help if there are any elements, like a poured floor or beam, because the frost will push up on the shallowest elements first, since the frost begins at the surface and gradually creeps deeper. Once the frost is below the bottom of any part of the poured foundation, that part is susceptable to being heaved by the frost.
You don't need forms underground just taper ed diggings so that they look like a dovetail you did a great job on this video.. anytime you poor concrete you want to dovetail down
I was thinking about a way to anchor the foundation so it wouldn't do pulled up by the permafrost. Then you mentioned changing how the foundation is tapered, I feel stupid lol
I am putting in a new vinyl fence, and I have been trying to make the hole walls perfectly vertical, and I am using 250lbs of cement on each post, and making sure to pre-mix it. I guess we have been lucky, but what about having the side of a slab exposed? We built a garage for some equipment, that is 36x60 foot, and we poured 6 foot footings, then left rebar sticking out of those so we could tie them into the floor, which was a 14" thick slab. Then we poured 8" walls on top of the slab, which we tied together with notches, and rebar. The only thing is that the slab is on a little raised area, and one side of it has the entire 14 inches of the slab exposed to freezing, yet the footings are of course below the frost line. So far we haven't had any cracks, but could the freezing dirt force the floor up, and tear it loose from the footings over time? We park some bulldozers, and cars in it, and as far as I can tell, it is still level after 15 years.
Wtf ur pouring 250lbs of cement on each post ur insane... just put alot of dirt on top of ur cement and tamp it down hard that way when the top layer freezes it will lock ur cement block in its location its recommended to have 4" of dirt but I usually do like 12 or so and do 1 bag per post lol witch should be like 60 lbs
Why dont you put a layer of gravel between foundation and soil? Then the ground will only shift the position of the gravel instead of the foundation itself.
Couldn't you just make the hole into a cylinder, it does not seem like that would result in frost heaving. And, it would be possible to accomplish by hand.
sonic tubes buddy , ( concrete tubes ) resting on the frost line , maybe even drop in a footer pill to spread the weight a bit , skip the rebar , just sayin
3:00 You're giving bad advice; shaping the forms and lining them with plastic?! Why not advise to pour below the frost line and avoid the frost altogether?
"a foundation shaped like this still lifts even if it does go below the frost." Jack of all trades, master of none that's what you are Matthias and that's fine but going around giving advice as an expert is irresponsible and border line criminal especially when it comes to advice relating to electrocution.
Being from a country where this is a very common problem (Norway), its surprising to read the comments, and all the strange suggestion. The solution to this is common knowledge here, and very easy. You just insulate beneath, on the sides and around the foundation. There are tables on how far out from the foundation the insulation should be, but typically 1,2m. The colder in the winter, the thicker insulation you need. Many suggest to add gravel around the foundation, and thats good, but you also need insulation in this case. The frost will penetrate much more easily through gravel, so the frost depth will be that much grater. Also add a 10 to 20 cm layer of gravel beneath the foundation for draining of water. For more important buildings, like a house, drain pipes are also added to clear the ground water. The strange comments are of course understandable for people who dont live in very cold climates and dont have this problem. Greath video from my favourite youtuber as always.
How do you insulqte the foundation and what difference would that make if the building is a barn and not heated?
Hi Ola, Could you please share the link to the table? I could find some information on subbase protection not on side protection. can I use thermocol for the side?
@@rameshr827 Hello! The tables we have in Norway only applies to Norway. And there are different values in regards to where you live. Eg where I live, its medium cold, it seldom gets below -20 deg celsius in the winter. It also depends upon the ground conditions. Typpically where I live to, insulate around the house for frost heaving, its 600mm out from the foundation and 900mm at the corners of the foundation. The thickness is 50mm. But for a much colder place, eg Røros, you need about 2000mm and 100mm thickness. So you need to check the tables in regards to where you live.
@@olaaunelefstad195 I am from UK. laying foundation in December. Most of the builders are not used to laying foundation in winter here. I need to specify the requirements. As per recommendations, I asked builder to lay 100mm gravel/recycled concrete subbase. I w want to have thermocol or some side protection, not sure which one , can I have eps? I am planning to cover the ground with blanket before and after the work. Will have industrial fans to keep the foundation hole warm prior to the work
@@rameshr827 As mentioned above Im no expert. So I dont feel comfortable giving any advice for specific projects. I dint think there was any problems with frost heaving in the UK, due to relatively warm climates? I think its best to contact a local engineer who knows about the requirements in your country. Sorry Im not vert helpfull, but Im a structural steel engineer, and dont have an in dept knowledge about insulation, especially not in the UK. Again, sorry!
This isn't a worry for me as I'm only creating a slab a few inches thick at the base of my deck to stop the dogs from tearing up the lawn and tracking mud, but this was great information for me to stop me from worrying my OCD. Thanks for the explanation. I took physics before so this was what I was expecting, but it's nice to hear this from experience instead of theory. I wish everybody was required to take physics. People act like it is hard, but everybody already knows so much of it. It just adds explanations to what you see happening around you every day of your life, but it makes life so much easier.
Matthias. Your clear approach to all sorts of physical phenomena always confirms my opinion of you great intellect. Thanks for this. I am planning to build soon, and will be using 2" insulation down to the footings. Smooth and slightly trapezoidal, as the concrete will push out laterally the deeper it is.
Had never heard of frost heaving (I'm in mid. Calif.) and was really well informed by your video. Thanks, love learning new things.
Very common in Minnesota. Our frost depth for construction is 5 feet!
oh its so much fun when you try and build anything, the frost table here in NY is 50 inches, so if you want to build any structure that will last you have to sink your posts deeper than 50 inches.
This was such a dumb example anyway. You are welcome.
Yea, never heard of it in Australia either.
This actually helped me in my geology class. Thank you!
why do i find your videos so entertaining?
i have absolutley no idea what your talking about but your genius of how you speak and how smart you are about this makes me watch it
this comment is unbelievably goofy to have made. I at least understand it now :P
So that explains why the doors at my house get stiff then loose trough out the year!
Brilliant explanation!
Every foundation we build in Wisconsin is based on what frost does when it gets 48" deep, which is a normal winter here. In the winter of 2011-12, we had a solid week to 10 days of winter temps around -20°F. Frost was driven down to 72" to 84" below grade in areas that were clear of snow. Roads mostly, but also any areas that were plowed along buildings for access. Water and sewer lines were freezing in places where it typically never does.
That was really helpful, Thanks!
helped alot with my homework/assignment! thankyou :)
very good video and Explanation!
Yes. Now tell me how to go back 25 years in time and tell my dad to do that.
Well, not entirely out, but I have seen foundations work their way out of the ground.
thax for explaining frost heaving.
Thanks for the video!
haha, i have a boathouse at my cottage build like this and the deck is at SO much of an angle right now, it's been pushed up for about 45+ years. now i know how to fix it! thanks! but it will be alot of work
My dad actually had a problem like this with a concrete base laid out just outside of his company in order to make the ground smoother. The base got lifted to the point that the door became impossible to open for the remainder of the winter, though fortunately there's an equally big side door that could be used instead if less conveniently.
This had never happened before despite the block having been there since the place was renovated years ago so I guess the ground had indeed shifted.
Good Explanation!
My ground moves 6" in the summer and then it moves 6" in the winter. Will this way of diging and putting new stumps in under the floor boards stop the house from moving?
So what if you did the same thing with a basement? After poring the foundation you added a slight concrete slope (maybe 15 degrees or so?) would that stop frost heaving and maybe even cracks in the basement walls?
nice explanation, i always thought that freezing would contract the soil, but it actually expands it and pushes the foundation up, like squeezing a watermelon seed
@PsychoticSnake Given enough time with improperly shaped sides, yes. Stones are heaving up in pasture lands here in the Alps every spring. There are centuries old piles of stones that dairy farmers in this region have added to over a millennium.
Helical piles in the Arctic? Do they last? They have used it on the utilidor and other projects in the Arctic. Will they work maybe some of you know?
@Dave209 i pretty sure thats just seasonal changes in the timber timber frams and stuff , lik everything expandes in summber and shrinks in winter
Love it!!
Very helpful video
thanks good explanation
Based on your cabin vid, I would use a jack and put in cribbing on each side of the work area. After the old pier is out, I would then dig a wide enough hole for a footing below the frost line and put in rebar to where it bends up to your pier location. This will lock in the pier to your footing. Your wood form should be removable. Most people just use form oil. Grouted CMU pier blocks might work better for your pier given the tight working conditions. There are many ways to skin a cat for sure. My parents carriage house is doing this too. I will be helping out soon.
@Matthiaswandel Well that would be a problem, I was just referring to the issue in general, wasn't aware of your particular problem.
If you have already formed pilasters shaped this way, you can set them in oversized holes & back fill, perhaps some gravel large & small around them might also be an advantage?...I wouldn't think you'd have to make the hole that shape. am I right Matthias?
interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Brilliant!
Thank you so much sir
I don't know if anyone suggested that possibility already, but for my house we have an additional drainage of about 3-10cm big stones about half a meter wide next to the insulation of my basement to avoid any frost pressure building up at the insulation. When water is able to freely get away from right next to the building/foundation while it is liquid, it will not cause any problems when frost comes, because the water is basically gone.
I would build this pillows not with a slope, but a straight edge, make a foot at the bottom that doesn't need side support for stability (so it has to be wide enough, but the wide shape you draw here would work as well, so maybe doing the foundation you suggested, but don't fill the hole up with soil, but with drainage material) and fill the surrounding of the foundation for about half a meter or 1 1/2 foot with drainage material to avoid frost right at the foundation alltogether.
It is an additional step and you need additional material on site, but might be a cheap and durable solution to the problem.
@ktekx Not with undisturbed solid soil underneath. Just making vertical sides to a foundation is good enough. It's well known among foundation builders that one cannot just dig a trench and pour a foundation in places that freeze. I've never heard of anyone going to the trouble of making tapered sides though.
Not exactly "proper" how I fixed it, but it will hold for five years, and then I'll think about it again.
What about footing your foundation until the frostfree depth? In Belgium this would be 80cm, I don't know the depth in the USA.
Do you have all the frozen soil video courses？I need it very much，thanks.
wow ... Thank you!
Excellent
the soil, clay moves 6" a year under the house. my plaster cracks and the floor has moved and the floor is not level. Also my concrete floor in my gararge has cracked. will your idea in the video work if I restump my house?
+Brenda If you go below the frost line, probably
A usual foundation is an upside down T with a footer about .45m wide and the main upright portion 5cm to 8 cm wide. Placing the footer below normal frost level means it won't be lifted and the weight of the ground actually holds it down. The cheap blocks you can buy aren't really meant for buildings mostly decks an such that heaving doesn't trash. Oh and add rebar in the crete.
PS I enjoy most of your videos despite being impatient at wood working.
What if u have sand along the foundation it wouldn’t freeze like soil
Every spring just cut off 1/2" from the top. Done!
So what your saying is, frost depth means absolutely nothing? I could dig 2 feet or 20 feet below frost because the top frozen foot is picking up the footing.
I would dig a hole next to the existing foundation and place a concrete pier tube into the hole backfill with dirt around the tube and fill the tube with concrete. A Bracket then goes on top of the pier once its dry and then you can use lumber to fill the space above the pier to the bottom of the beam. The good thing about the concrete tubes is that they are just cardboard and you can leave them and they will dissolve. I'd check with your local supplier to see what size tube they would recommend.
With the reverse tapering of the foundation, is there any chance of it doing the opposite and sinking the foundation w/ the freezing?
Seems plausible. My guess is you're meant to compact the ground beneath. If you think about it, the existence of the cottage presses down on the foundation.
Maybe augur holes and use straight pillars packed with sand around them. I am reading further and gravel is recommended as it has no capillary action. It may work but my fear with gravel is that it may causing stemming which tightens in the hold and allows force to work against its outside. Perhaps not a real problem...
Foundation's doesn't get poard at an angle for a video ?
Wouldn't the pyramid shape gradually sink as the years wear on?
What about vertical piles as foundation? would that help?
the key to survive frost heaving is minimal surface area, not much for the frost to push up, a pier foundation is best. It will keep your structure level and give some wiggle room so to speak, the ground around it can swell a bit but still not bother your structure. Just remember to sink your piers below the frost table. For instance here in NY the frost table is 50 inches, so i have to dig at least a 56 inch hole to pour my concrete for my piers. Then stick in my 4x4 posts. it's more work but in the end you have a very secure structure.
Actually, the piles won't help if there are any elements, like a poured floor or beam, because the frost will push up on the shallowest elements first, since the frost begins at the surface and gradually creeps deeper. Once the frost is below the bottom of any part of the poured foundation, that part is susceptable to being heaved by the frost.
Coowl, dude your smart :D
Proper foundations therefore needs insulation on near the ground surface so that the soil can not freeze.
Wouldn't all these problems be avoided by building it properly with the foundations and footings below the frost line?
Wrong.
You don't need forms underground just taper ed diggings so that they look like a dovetail you did a great job on this video.. anytime you poor concrete you want to dovetail down
I was thinking about a way to anchor the foundation so it wouldn't do pulled up by the permafrost. Then you mentioned changing how the foundation is tapered, I feel stupid lol
And suddenly, you feel a sudden 5 foot drop while sipping on hot chocolate in your house.
I am putting in a new vinyl fence, and I have been trying to make the hole walls perfectly vertical, and I am using 250lbs of cement on each post, and making sure to pre-mix it.
I guess we have been lucky, but what about having the side of a slab exposed? We built a garage for some equipment, that is 36x60 foot, and we poured 6 foot footings, then left rebar sticking out of those so we could tie them into the floor, which was a 14" thick slab. Then we poured 8" walls on top of the slab, which we tied together with notches, and rebar. The only thing is that the slab is on a little raised area, and one side of it has the entire 14 inches of the slab exposed to freezing, yet the footings are of course below the frost line. So far we haven't had any cracks, but could the freezing dirt force the floor up, and tear it loose from the footings over time? We park some bulldozers, and cars in it, and as far as I can tell, it is still level after 15 years.
Wtf ur pouring 250lbs of cement on each post ur insane... just put alot of dirt on top of ur cement and tamp it down hard that way when the top layer freezes it will lock ur cement block in its location its recommended to have 4" of dirt but I usually do like 12 or so and do 1 bag per post lol witch should be like 60 lbs
@@JareBareXP I finished the fence and went down to 100lbs of concrete on the remaining posts with about 4 inches of dirt on top.
So, in theory, foundations could be lifted right out the ground?
Yes they can and some are, if the foundation is too shallow for the frost rating in that area.
Why dont you put a layer of gravel between foundation and soil? Then the ground will only shift the position of the gravel instead of the foundation itself.
If the foundation sits atop the gravel and the gravel shifts....
i guess im pretty lucky to live in australia then...
Right. Just tons of poisonous creatures to worry about instead!
Same here in Texas! LOL. No frost but lots of venomous snakes and insects.
raising a garage
Couldn't you just make the hole into a cylinder, it does not seem like that would result in frost heaving. And, it would be possible to accomplish by hand.
sonic tubes buddy , ( concrete tubes ) resting on the frost line , maybe even drop in a footer pill to spread the weight a bit , skip the rebar , just sayin
Was thinking helical piles in permafrost.
Garage floors move up and Bust
My storm door does not open all the way because idiots built my house - thanks frost heave
Yeah, I know it.
It's called an elephant foot.
epic
I love wood! oh wait, that's not what i meant...
Couldn't you just make the foundation straight?
Umm... Try watching the video again and actually listening to what I say.
Vt
Diamond piers,,,Ha ha ha ha ha ha haha
3:00 You're giving bad advice; shaping the forms and lining them with plastic?! Why not advise to pour below the frost line and avoid the frost altogether?
a foundation shaped like this still lifts even if it does go below the frost.
"a foundation shaped like this still lifts even if it does go below the frost." Jack of all trades, master of none that's what you are Matthias and that's fine but going around giving advice as an expert is irresponsible and border line criminal especially when it comes to advice relating to electrocution.
Order in Chaos he's actually making a good point... the foundation can be pulled up from the frost even though it has a good base... ;-)
You can also insulate the concrete before backfilling.