Just got off the phone with a great guy over at PS audio I was trying to find a Sprout 100 to demo and had called every HiFi store in the city. In a matter of minutes he had found a store for me to go demo the unit. Such a great company you have here. I'm 29 and if I like what I hear I'm sure you'll have a customer for life. Stay amazing guys.
I think one of the best benefits of separates now is that you can pick and choose the features you want from each and not be limited to what is available as integrated.
8-Tracks were still out in 74 and cassettes were starting to show up late 74 early 75. I discovered HI Fi stereo August 73 after basic and tech school when I went PCS. If you advertised in Stereo Review I probably read about your products. Back then I asked the same question about components. Your answer now has stood the test of time. 50 years!!!
This guy is a high end stereo GOD his explanations are grounded in fact not opinion and are easy to understand so that you can make similar decisions based on his advice both pro and con
I am a separates guy, have been for a long time. My modest setup consists of the Carver M500t power amp and the NAD 1600 preamp. I've had both for over 30 years now and am still happy with both. I have owned receivers and integrated amps but I love the flexibility of separates. Thanks for the video!
Richard Comerford Nice, I have a Marantz NR amplifier, it really does everything. It is basically a pre-amplifier, power amplifier, a DAC, a network media player, a tuner and a couple of more things. I love it! Coupled with some nice Monitor Audio silver tower speakers.
No Compromise Audio - the audio industry thanks you for not compromising on the amount of money you give them. Every set of components is a compromise of some sort. I find that I don't get enough benefit (that is, any benefit audible to me) from buying separate everything to justify the costs, so high quality receivers are adequate for my needs.
I find the opposite, I love components. It allows me to repair/replace individual parts of the system. As opposed to janky receivers, which when they give out... its pretty much a done deal. Not saying this is always the case, but most of the time it is.
Great explanations!! I always used to tell my male clients it’s like buying separates for a suit 😅 much better fit if you can get a jacket and suit pants separate - Female clients washer & dryer (not as sexist 30 years ago). Mostly would explain if you need more power or inputs more economical and smarter to upgrade one and not forced to upgrade all (like your phono only input example from the 70’s) First integrated I bought was in 1987 SONY and that thing shook the house 😅 Besides that one, I always separate pre & amp.
Thanks for the quick overview. There are other needs, which are very hard to find proper matches for today. 1. Phonograph cartridges: a. Moving Magnet b. Moving Coil c. Ceramic d. Selectable eq curves... 2. Tape head inputs for old reel to reel recorders/players also with selectable eq.
The original term for preamplifier referred to an additional amplification stage required for magnetic phono cartridges which had lower level outputs and was provided as a stage in an integrated amplifier. When big money vacuum tube equipment showed up the preamp stage and controls and line inputs were separated from what became referred to as the power amplifier which only had inputs for a line level source. Solid state technology recombined all this with a tuner section into a single chassis. Separate units for these functions remained for high end equipment even for all solid state components. We somehow became convinced that separates meant "better" along with the reappearance of vacuum tubes.
I finally get it. My father in 1970’s had 4 reel to reel players 3. turntables (78/45 etc). I always thought the thing with the Db gauges was a tuner but now I learn it was a preamp. Thank you.
It should also be mentioned that some brands have good power amplification and so-so preamplification (or vice versa) or are too expensive for one versus the other. So, having separate pre and power gives you the freedom to mix and match brands and models for the ideal sound quality to your own ears at your preferred price.
you might be able to help me answer a "burning question" when I see the specification AUX Amplitude Gain : 6 dB does that mean it can only increase the db rating by 6 db? aim is to increase the gain 3 channel mixer I have because using headphones and turning up the stereo volume generates noise and I hope to eliminate that but if 6 db isn't enough to boost it to desired volume at the half way mark of the stereo then damn that would suck :p
@Joe Al an integrated may well have just a passive pot to attenuate the source and an amplifier with the appropriate gain configured as mono blocks (in one chassis but separate power supplies and amplification). Source selection can be mechanical or electronic based switch with it's own power supply. Bottom line, the answer needs to have some understanding of how their electronics work. Once you hook up separates, they are interacting together regardless. Integrated can be designed, and some are, to act like separates in one chassis. I use a pre because my source is vinyl and my power amp has no gain.
@Joe Al I'm currently using a FirstWatt F4. Has no gain hence the need for a preamp for all sources. Last tube/valve amp I was using can be driven to full output with 0.5V so didn't need a pre on a modern nominal 2V source. I need to get around trying out class D again. More single chassis monoblock configurations for hifi is available with the tech. The modules are small and cool enough to run a stereo pair in one reasonably sized chassis as true monoblocks.
But then again that's like saying different turntable manufacturers have different sound so let me buy 3 and mix and match depending on my mood LOL - sigh, I get it but costly and just more units to plug in.
If all you do is to listen to music on one input source via a DAC e.g. from a computer, you really don’t need a preamp. A large preamp doing only volume adjustment is completely silly. My opinion is that my favorite architecture includes a transport or PC, a powerful DSP to carefully tweak the sound, a good DAC, a great power amp and of course great speakers. If you are still into vinyl, you probably want a preamp. Ages ago I had a CD player, record player, FM/AM tuner and cassette player connected to my pre-amp with tone controls, balance control, volume control and so on. With music being digital, now I need none of that really. I believe that most young people don't even know what a pre-amp is.
I do not think music is being digital but we do:). We decide to have it digital. I have almost 50% of my music on analog and 50% on digital. So I must have all - LP. CD, reels, cassettes radio, sat radio and PC . What's more i live in place where I must listen at moderate level and at night even barely heard. . For two reasons - my desired sounding and my neighbours comfort I use few vintage amplifiers all of them including "loudness correction". Precision control of input level to them is essential so I use my Bang & Olufsen to do the job of preamp.with additional remote volume. After manually setting desired loudness I make with B&O remote correction depending on music. My conclusion is that for proper using int. amp with loudness correction to set input level I need 100% additional preamp with controls. .
No matter how many times I try to figure out what preamps are for, I always seem to forget. Today I searched again, and ended up here, again, evident by the fact that I had clicked the "Like" button here some time in the past, yet here I am again! This is a great explanation, and it does seem to make sense to me now (maybe like the difference between using using individual tools instead of a Swiss-army knife), but I'll probably forget again in a few weeks! But, I think you probably have to be in a situation where you _need_ a preamp to really understand the purpose of them, which is not the case for most people with ordinary equipment like receivers and stereos.
While it's true the basic function of a preamp is to allow source selection as well as volume control, high quality, modern preamps do much more. Namely, they will (i) add further gain to the signal which allows more dynamics, and in some cases, may be essential for your amp (some amps require a higher voltage source to sound good); and (ii) the addition of another linear power supply in your system's signal path also will significantly expand the soundstage and dynamics even further than the amp can on its own. But, not all preamps are built to successfully accomplish the latter two...some are just volume and selector knobs (i.e., a true passive preamp). The argument of which is better...passive or active preamps...has long ago been settled...active is the way to go if you're goal is to enhance the dynamics of your system. Hope this is helpful.
@@Artemis_Prix This makes a lot of sense, so basically not all preamps are equal in a broad sense (because obviously they're not all equal!), so I suppose you would need to know _why_ you need a preamp before you just go out and mindlessly buy one because all the cool kids have them. Like one person might buy one just for control, but someone else might buy one to make the sound better..
Did away with my preamp two years ago, haven’t missed it since. But I keep it in my rack because I’m an audio nerd and still enjoy looking at it. Sad, but true. 🤓
Keep it on your rack my friend. I have discovered something new. Finely crafted Turntables and Vinyl recordings that run at 45 and 33 revolutions per minute, imagine that !! So much ambience missing when you get rid of vinyl grooves in favor of optical etching.
@paul best That is a nice amplifier. It still rated at 750 mv input sensitivity. any more information on the powerless volume control. i cant seem to reference that.
@paul best Thank you i look again for the item. It is sometimes difficult to filter out disturbances in tube amplifiers. I like integrated preamp amplifiers so that i can have more user[s] capacity available. the jadis you mentioned has 100 watt output which is a lot for non commercial use. I can see that you take quality seriously, I want to build a push pull tube amp but i am not proficient at biasing the circuits.
Don't feel bad... I'm building a Pioneer blue light rig with the 707 reel to reel and the 1250 tape deck . Anyway .. I just dumped 130 bucks a revwrberator that I'm never going to use. I'm buying the timer too .(about the same cost) Um a completist and have to have the entire set.
I have two sources, an Audiolab MDAC and a Leak Troughline FM/VHF radio [Mark I made in 1957]. Both of these have little class A output amplifiers with their own volume controls. Both would still use their own little class A output amplifiers if feeding a separate pre-amplifier with its own volume control. I don't have one. At the moment I simply connect up the source I want to the Quad valve power amp. I run mono alone with one speaker ... What I really need is a two source selector switch without volume control. But most people are not like me! They probably do need a pre-amplifier for best quality. My speaker was also made in 1957. One of the very first Quad ESL speakers made and still serviced to be be as good as 62 years ago ...
never believed in preamps before until i integrated one in my chain , completely agree with you Paul , thanks for your great videos keep up the good work
Paul, you mention about a preamp needing a power supply, but what is wrong with a good quality potentiometer between source and power amp?, plus the switching doesnt need power, so are you over-complicating the signal path?
I did a music session in the early 80's . The engineer's preference for monitoring amp was a McIntosh home stereo integrated amp. It may had a receiver in it but I don't remember and at 17yrs I didn't know or care if it colored the sound compared to 'what's on the tape sound' because our demo sounded amazing, minus our songwriting of course. My answer to the query is slightly different than PS's. A: I prefer the front end of X brand and the power amp of Y. I have at minimum the paradox of choice if not real choices about how to get "my sound". Peace
Making a comment after having paused the video at 1:03. Well what the person who asked the question is thinking about is called an integrated amp. Take it a step further, a receiver is a tuner, a preamp and a power amp in one box. Now there are amps that have built-in attenuators so you could hook up ONE source into it and avoid the need of a preamp. And even more common, there are CD players and DACs that have volume control which would also allow one to connect directly to a power amp, which would not require a preamp. But in both of those cases you have to pay attention to output impedance (of the source) input impedance (of the amp) plus the output voltage of the source and then input sensitivity of the amp. They also make passive preamps that allow that type of connection with the added advantage of having a switch for multiple sources. But YES, in one form or another you NEED a preamp, built in or outboard.
If you have an very basic 2 channel system. You can use an high quality streaming device ( like Blue sound) and run it directly into an high quality stereo amplifier. It won't play very loud but it will sound beautiful. With a few exceptions the best pre amp is no pre. Amp. One of those exceptions is an high quality tube pre amp.
The compact cassette was introduced by Philips first to the public August 30 1963 at the Berlin Radio Show. Nowadays we call that IFA. By 1968, 85 manufacturers had sold over 2.4 million players. In the 70s until digital recorders replaced the format in the late 90s, lots of stereo cassette decks with Dolby B/C noise reduction and other features were developed.
I bought a Harmon Kardon CAD5 cassette deck in the fall of 1972. The store was closing it out because they were going to sell the Advent 201. The first cassette decks with Dolby were the Nakamichi made CAD5, Advent 200 and Fisher RC-80. They were mechanically and electronically equal with very interesting design esthetic differences. However many companies made lower quality stereo cassette decks as early as 1970. I had a Magnavox component cassette deck in 1970 which was a disguised Panasonic deck . The Magnavox had a wood cabinet and threw in two microphones to list at $120 vs $80 for the Panasonic . My friend had an Ampex all in one cassette player, amplifier with two stereo speakers. Even without Dolby his Ampex controlled the hiss better than my Magnovox, probably with a high filter of some sort. I first remember hearing halfway decent cassette tapes play music in lat 69 or early 70 when a high school classmate brought a portable deck into school.
Everything old is new again. Vinyl records are making a strong comeback. I'm detecting rumblings of reel to reel coming back. I stumbled across this video is because I am looking for a way to use an older stereo receiver as a control preamp. Electronics manufacturers have dropped a lot of features that 60's/70's & 80's equipment had. One of those features is the ability to remove two jumpers from the back of the unit and separate the power amplifier from the preamp/tuner. Via those RCA jacks one could insert a graphic equalizer to tailor the sound to their liking or add a tape deck whether it be a reel to reel or cassette deck or all of these. RCA phono jacks are beginning to reappear for turntables equipped with magnetic phono cartridges.
The case for separate preamps and power amps was stronger in the 1950s when the power amps were big, ugly chassis with more power consumed by the tube heaters than going into the speakers, not to mention that you often needed two of these ugly things for stereo. Consoles from that era tended to put the power amps toward the bottom of the cabinet and I remember books and magazines with suggestions for putting them in a closet behind the wall on which everything else was mounted. You can still make a case for them on the grounds of avoiding cross talk and power supply decoupling, but with today's advanced power supplies, it's only the 1% who will be able to hear the difference. I also have to wonder how those advantages compare to the noise pickup and coloration one gets by adding a set of cables.
Hi Paul, i like watching your videos here in the U.K. I might be wrong, but i think Mr. Peter Walker who owned the Quad ( known previously in the 1940's as the aucustical company ), company was the first person to produce a seperate preamp and power amp. He was also the first person to develope an electrostatic speaker and the ribbon tweeter. His was a great British company that produced great sounding and fantastic looking audio equipment. Best regards, Oz.
Thank you for this video. I finally have an answer ( after many years) to what a pre amp is for and now I need to know if I really need one for playing my vinyl, which for me is my only goal.
I think most people want preamps now not because of volume amplification but because of the sound enhancement or ‘saturation’ a thin beam of velvety pure sound that a preamp can potentially provide. Some preamps are better at that than others, I would really like to know/understand what sort of technology is required to produce such sound.
One option a preamp privides is it lets you play with monoblock amplfiers loacted next to the speakers to reduce speaker lead length. If these monoblocks were integrated amps, just look at the mess involved with multiple inputs, and even just changing the volume etc.
Ooh! a thumbnail of my first stereo tuner - the cute Sony ST-70. That was 1974. My amplifier was a Trio(Kenwood) KA-2002 along with a BSR McDonald HT-70 and a Shure M75EJ cartridge. Nostalgia creeps in again .
The most practical reason to separate the stages is a bit overshadowed by the topic of sound-quality of the boxes and that to me at least is adaptability to the front- and backend of amplification. Preamplifiers have to fit to different sources and may incorparete phonostages for MM/MC, DACs, surround-processors and what not, which will only fit a limited set of sources perfectly so you have to make your choice of phono-cartridge or bitrates from your digital sources accordingly and may have been outdated on the latter already if you bought your preamp about 10 or 12 years ago. On the other end, the poweramp has to match the loudspeakers which may get costly if you try to satisfy the demands of everything you may ever come across, so you better compromise and choose the right match for what you have. Point is, in between these two stages of very different demands you have a common link of a simple left/right-channel signal where you can easily make a cut. This way you get the freedom to adapt to the front and back as needed and as your system and technology evolves. An integrated amp is either much less likely to be the best match to sources as well as loudspeakers or restricts you in the choices you can make on both ends.
I fully believe in separating jobs out to my components. Like you said a speaker that only has to handle a very narrow range will never work and it's life. Very true in Hi-Fi
I am 59 y.o. I have never met anyone who had a preamp separate system that I listened to music thru. I get the sense that therein lies the problem with many commenters. They simply have never had a chance to compare their quality integrated against quality separates to judge for themselves the difference. I would like to have the opportunity some time.
I need a preamp with tubes. Because I can hear the difference tubes make. I make music. I play music. Every professional musician I ever worked with used tube amps. Even tubes in microphones. I love tube sound. Reminds me of live performances. And my Mom's HiFi console playing LP classical music records. Solid state just dont cut it for me. But digital, CD recordings of live music played back through a tube system... Yeah. No turntable for me. Not needed. But me do need tubes 😄
I have a $70 passive preamp and it beats powered preamp under $1000 sound wise by a mile. Disadvantages: you wil to pay more attention to the impedance requirements of your source components. Your computer, it doesn’t care, some cd and DVD players they don’t care either. With some source components you need a powered amp. And you still need a phono preamp. If you pay attention to what source you buy a passive preamp would be a fantastic deal!
Thank you for this great explanation! Yet my music is all digital I'd like to hear about volume regulation in digital domain and loosing/not loosing bits of resolution in the process. Currently I have a stepped passive regulator in between the DAC and the power amplifier.
Paul, do you remember mind blower speakers? They were a product of the 70’s.......I installed them in my Dodge van and they sounded absolutely great ! The amplifier was built on the back of the speaker......I would love to get my hands on a pair today!
Basically, a preamplifier is a device used to take a weak audio signal level, like 0.316 V RMS (-10 dBV), used by consumer audio equipments, and bring it up to the required line level (0.775 V RMS, 1 V RMS, 1.23 V RMS, etc) needed to drive the power amplifier to its ful rated power output. Ideally, one would wish to have an audio source able to deliver a high output signal level between 1 V RMS and 3 V RMS, the higher the better, and match it with an amplifier with low input sensitivity (high input signal level), in order to avoid the use of an excessive amplification factor (voltage gain), which can have a negative effect on the amplifier frequency response curve (the amplifier behaves like a filter). Personally, I prefer the use of separate dedicated audio components along the entire signal chain, connected to a high quality professional audio mixing console, using balanced connections on all inputs and outputs. The mixing console with highly accurate level meters, allows me to monitor and feed the clean (unclipped) and required nominal signal level to the amplifier input stage and, therefore, drive the amplifier to its maximum rated power output without driving it into clipping. The result is clean sound, amplifier thermal stability and happy loudspeakers.
Spot on Paul! There's a reason I'm designing and about ready to build my own low voltage preamp because the integrated preamp in my Canon DSLR isn't up to the task. Also I need a little more juice than PIP can provide. Hope you and the family are doing well!
Yes there were cassette decks in 1974. One of the guys down the hall from me in the dorms at Univ. Of Miami had a cassette deck in 1971. It was branded with an AMPEX logo. I’m not sure if they were really the manufacturer or not. We all thought it was the coolest thing going but it wasn’t very reliable. Maybe it didn’t like smoke. It played a lot of Moody Blues in those days. Thanks for your insights and musings.
For anyone who uses a serious pre-amp: Are you using headphones or speakers? High impedance or low? Do you "believe" in EQ/ coloring the sound? Aside from input selection/ volume control, what are you getting from the pre-amp that you don't get without it, from a good source with a good DAC?
I've been using separates for years. First HK Citation 11 preamp/Citation 19 power amp. Until they gave out. Now I use Parasound P7 preamp/A21 power amp. The phono stage in the P7 is superior to any previous phono amp in any receiver/integrated amp I've ever had. imo, the quality of the preamp is more important than the quality of a power amp. But when you have a combo of equal quality to each, so much the better.
thankyou for doing this topic and going into such detail i’m like the writer that sent that in for many years i’m nearly 60 years of age and as a teenager i did purchase my first r”real “ Stereo system for my bedroom at my parents home i purchased separate Amplifier ,Tuner and my other components and my main gear was all ASE two equipment the A 7 had a preamp for my Turntable and i was pretty happy with that integrated one unfortunately 20 years later my 1 year old Son was fascinated with buttons and knobs and i watched him go to my Amp with the volume on full and turned it on Accidently it made him nearly jump out of his Diaper that got me hysterically laughing and it never worked again i gave it to a lifelong freind that is a Sound and Lighting man for over 35 years and at one time took formal Schooling to repair Equipment and had a small shop he never got it working or told me why it was shot i of course did check all the fuses and obvious hinges right away that Amp had always had a delay on turning on completely and that delay was getting longer over the years to me it sounded like a Relay as the lights and everything came on but no Audio and after a loud internal Click it began working normal. i’m on the hunt for one on Ebay that’s been recapped and fully serviced but i’m torn because some of todays modern Equipment makes more sense most specifically for Home Theater ,built in Streaming ,Bluetooth , and of course Remote Control that honestly Mama likes i’m okay with it too plus having the HDMI ports and the Capadibility to the Flat Screens we are using now i even take my modern Electronics a step further by. buying one Brand so the remote controls work everything without reprogramming them as we have multiple Dwellings ,plus Motor boats , Rvs , and multiple Entertainment areas like Shop , Office ,Etc FYI i enjoy your channel a lot i am not formally trained in Electronics but i am pretty well read and handy like i do have Woodworking Skills and generally install my own Electronics in my vehicles ,Boats , and Motor homes not to save money but mostly because i enjoy controlling my deadlines and dislike paying someone for innapropriate Craftsmanship
I ran without a preamp for a while because all I was using for a source was a cd player that had a level control and my power amp also had level controls, and that worked fine. Otherwise, a preamp is recommended. And...when I did buy a preamp - it was a PS Audio. :)
You're wonderful. It won't kill you to take the time and sit down and watch some UA-cam videos on the history of audio formats, like a UA-cam channel called Techmoan. Cassettes were around way before 74. Seriously, you sound like a busy active man, but watch around this great resource of UA-cam that we have in the palm of our hands.
Pioneer actually introduced the first separates to allow the engineers and end users to mix and match for the best results within a given budget, and provide better isolation of sensitive components from noisy ones.
The whole purpose of fine tuning a preamp, amp or tuner and shoving all it outputs through a speaker should be to increase the quality of the sound, but can one's ears really discern the differnce between a very expensive system and a cheap one? Especially my ears that don't hear high frequencies well due to tinnitus.
I have to agree with you, if you want the next level of performance, separates is the way to go. You don't necessarily have to break the bank doing it. I could not afford new, just economics. I was paying good amount of child support, but I loved my music. Did my homework and put together a Rotel pre-amp processor ( know you're not a fan) and an Carver AV705X power amp. And Infinity interlude speakers and I had a very good sounding system for under 2k . But it does out perform any receiver I've heard . Thanks Paul
I still don't accept that integrateds are necessarily inferior. To illustrate, surely a superbly well specified integrated is going to hold sway over an average specified separate. It also has the advantage of a shorter signal path. As I've said before, the two best amps I ever owned were integrateds. My Musical Fidelity KW 500 and my current ride, the VPI 299D. Both were designed from the ground up without compromise.
"I still don't accept that integrateds are necessarily inferior." And I am inclined to agree with you. If there's one noticeable thing here, it's that mechanical connectors (leads) are the weakest link in the system. When it needs fixing, that's were you commence trouble-shooting. An integrated system usually has many more mechanical interconnects.
You did not explain exactly what you meant by the word, "compromised," by combining the amp and pre-amp. As far as I know with my limited knowledge base is, that could mean either by insufficient voltage or current, or by unwanted frequencies. The unwanted frequencies have to be filtered out anyway no matter what power supply the signal is associated with and as for the voltage and current, you just need to select the proper power supply that makes available the voltage and current needed. You explained it like the pro that you are and I am sure that you are right. I have learned so much from you, but on this issue, I still do not see the advantage for the millions of us who bought them to listen to Motley Crew screaming, "Come on feel the noise!" We are a hopeless bunch. I really appreciate your insight into the audio industry. Thank you for all that you do, as well as, your input. One more point. Dosn't the sound systems at Disney World sound superb? They have incredible bass, are very loud and have exceptional clarity. I wonder what equipment they use?
You need a pre amp for volume control, Most power amps have no remote for adjusting volume.. Also you need tone controls this is most vital! many 'Audiophiles' would say i'm swearing but it is fact.. Also EQ is vital.. Listening to AC/DC yesterday 'Back In Black' it sounded dire very muffled and dull so i adjusted the treble and EQ hey presto it sounds as it should!. Recordings vary vastly from bad/good and you need to compensate for this. Even on Paul's IRSV's Back In Black would sound dull because it was recorded that way!
Masochists should just connect the output of a CD player directly to the power amp. Switch it on and watch the loudspeaker voice coils fly by you - and the neighbours decide that you must be got rid of !
In a digital system with a well designed DAC ( I'm thinking such as the mytek Brooklyn) a pre amp is not needed as the DAC acts as such, saving on components and cables and cost. This is my experience
My PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC does not need a preamp (built-in volume control.), but I use their BHK hybrid preamp for the "warm" sound that the vacuum tubes produce in the input stage. Hey, it's Digital reproduction, you "got'a" give it all the help you can!
I tried doing that with my Schiit DAC but the Missus objected to unplugging and plugging to change sources. Having a switch definitely keeps the peace!
Byron, "the best" I wouldn't go that far. "nonaudiophile", it has nothing to do with how much money one spends on their audio equipment. $100,000 or $100.00 if you "love" music and or audio equipment, your an audiophile. You play a musical instrument. You produce real musical notes, not reproduction. IMO, the ultimate music lover. Keep on play'n !
Reason being is that if an integrated amplifier broke, you'd have to replace the entire thing. If a preamp broke, you won't have to fork out a fortune to replace all your components. You'd only have to replace the preamp. Kind of like a PC. GPU Broke? No need to buy an entire unit. Just replace the GPU!
The "burning" question wasn't answered for me! The question is, "Does anyone need a preamp?" You answered the question, "Why did you build a preamp?" I have a NAD amplifier I bought at Goodwill. Do I need a preamp? For now I'm using the pot on the back. It would seem to me that any electronics between my signal source and amp would degrade the quality. So, do I need a preamp? What does that preamp in the video do that the pot in the amp doesn't? You say it is the only way for you to get the quality you want. Maybe that quality can only be seen on an oscilloscope? Can a person off the street--can I--notice the difference between a signal into amp only and one through your preamp? If they can, explain the difference. Answer the question. I am subscribing to your channel in the hope that you will actually answer the question in a future video from the user's point of view.
Most applications for pre-amps are for microphones. Additionally, the pre-amp is the circuit that provides phantom power for the mics that need it. From what I understand the pre-amp is used to get non-line level signals up to line-level, so if you are already dealing with audio signals that are line level then you shouldn't need a pre-amp at all.
a lot of actual musicians say it isn't so ! that all that extra filtering gives a more artificial sound One Famous singer said the best real sound he ever heard was threw a Pioneer sx1980 receiver powering a set of Pioneer HPM-100 speakers !
@@HazeAnderson You are talking about studio pre amplifier which is not the same as a hifi system pre-amplifier. They serve different purpose. If you have a separate pre-amp in the studio is usually because it often is better than the pre-amp that is a part of the interface or mixer. Every hifi system has a pre-amplifier. Either built into the power amplifier, or as a separate pre-amp, or now in the modern world, it's often built into the DAC. Many DACs can be used as volume control with an option to have line level out as well.
If you look at a Lepai amplifier, it's about the size of the transformer of the preamp, and has a preamp, and a power stage in one. Without performance loss.
Not to mention it sells more stuff. The $350 Harmon Kardon stereo receiver/amp that I bought in 1975 still sounded far better than the 10K system i have now which still sounds like crap.
Many integrated amps have a preamp out and amp in. I have found that many integrated amps have a great power amp but a mediocre preamp and visa versa. Having these two components separate allows for picking the best of each (in your price range) to have a combination better (more to your tastes and preferences) than most integrated amps can allow for.
Humbucker I've found this to be especially true of the phono stage on receivers and integrated amps. Getting a good phono pre amp helps. Many receivers are marketed to attract vinyl lovers, but they do not sound very good even if you have a decent turntable.
Has any manufacturer taken the approach of digitally separating/filtering frequency bands, then amplifying each band width independently, whereas if a speaker was to be a three way design (bass, mid and treble) with independent binding post to each driver, then a cross over network in the speaker would be unnecessary? It seems to be arcane to send the fully amplified band width (say 20hz to 20Khz) to the speaker, then have a crossover do all the work necessary to divide the amplified signal. Seems you could achieve much more precise sound if dividing first, then amplifying.
I have a please please please question. If I use the speaker out put wires to go to an amp does this create a problem? My denon 760 has no Pre outs. My SVS ultras right left center I’m suspect could use a little more power. At some point I will upgrade the denon 760, but I just got it in nov. Can I get by with speaker out to amp via rca adaptor? What’s the deference Pre out vs speaker out?
Eddie I didn't either. I have a Yamaha a S801 inegrated amp. I always wondered what a pre amp was for. I did get a phono pre amp. Why? Because I really didn't like the phono stage in the Yamaha. I thought the signal lacked punch. I was told that this was not unusual. So I got a phono box phono pre amp upon recommendation. It takes up an input, but it was worth it because I heard such a difference once the pro ject phono box was added. But a separate component pre amp? Did I want or need it? A phono pre amp was for me was optional, but it would have been NECESSARY if my power source had no phono input or if my turntable had no built in pre amp. But what was this pre amp component thing about? Well, now I know I don't really need it. I am happy with how the Yamaha performs with all the other components. An integrated amp is an all in one. The only thing I NEED is a tuner. I decided to go with Serius Satellite. Done. This all sounds duh, I know. But my whole audio life has been about receivers...I live and learn, what can I say? Since then I have experimented with a Schitt Loki. That's about it. Thanks...
Mr.paul, I hope you will reply me. Which one is the most important for a tight, deep, punchy, clean and vibration free sound reproduction? Is it a power amp, preamp, eqalizer or good speaker? I have bought few AVR here in Kuwait but not happy bass effect. Also I am not interested in several channel like 5.2, 11.2 or up to 99.9. So pls advise which one I have to buy under 2000 dollars.
Good speakers! Definitely. If you have good speakers you can somewhat make the rest better by using parts that does reduce noise as Little as possible to the sound. But speakers Are the King. If you have good speaker but low quality amplifier, there may be extra his or even static noise. But there should Also be all the nyances of original sound. If the speaker can not reproduce the original sound no good amp can make it.
I use a preamp to drive a long set of interconnects to a tri-amp system at the end of my room, about 15' away from my source. A passive pre-amp, which I have in my DAC, will not do the job. The other solution would be three sets of speaker cables that would have to be about 20' long, or stuff the source equipment, (turntable, computer, BIG DAC) between the speakers with the three amps, possible but also problematic.
Paul, I wanted to offer you an honest and personal Thank you for the extensive education that you have given me, and the kind and clear and gracious manner in which you have offered it. Im going to be in your neck of the woods this summer and I will definitely come and see your facilities and perhaps even get to thank you in person. You have been a significant part of my path to the music business, a place that I now exist and find so rewarding. Sincerely, Bungeebill Hood Rat Records 🎩 ✌️ 🐀 🧿
I wish I could say I had some PS audio components..... It's kinda my dream gear now that I got my Spec rig done... But sadly my mother has been battling cancer for years and I alone pay all her medical costs and bills .. I've had to buy sell and repair a TON of gear to get to attain the rig I am running now (pioneer spec 1&2 /tx9500 tuner / ct1000. Deck t/pl530 /rg9500. I worked real hard to get it. Maybe one day I'll get a PS phono pre
Maybe I missed something, Paul, but after watching the entire episode, I think if we take away the photo stage, aside from the dedicated power supply, the only thing the preamplifier does is switching inputs (and of course volume control), right? What am I missing?
My pre amp has a separate box for it's own power supply, I truly believe in separating as much as possible in my system. Doesn't matter what it is, dedicated machines or electronics will always preform better then all in one jobbies!
The Nakamichi 1000 came out in 1974 and it did not do what you said. It can still hold its own if the capacitors and pots are rehabbed. This was the first product that Nakamichi sold with their name on it and to call it anything other than state of the art for 1974 would be a crime. But the question is how good it was. To untrained ears in the typical stereo store the tapes made on the 1000 sounded better than many reel to reel decks of that era. When they came out with the stripped down 700 it was supposed to be equivalent as far as audio fidelity. The next two that I remember were the model 600 and another whose model number escapes me (400?). These two were two head decks rather than the three heads of the 1000 and 700. I still own a 1977 600 and wonder to this day if I should have bought the floor model 700 that was being offered in a nice suburban Chicago dealer (near Naperville, Illinois) rather than the 600 I bought at HiFi Hutch in Villa Park, Illinois. The mid seventies were a fun time to get into audio. I am in the middle of recreating my mid seventies system. I hope my 600 is up to the task.
Not so. My first cassette deck was a Trio KX-700 bought from my cousin in 1974. It had Dolby B and could handle CrO2 tapes. Decent hifi quality ! This was the start of the era of great cassette decks. I have owned Pioneer CTF-9191, CTF-1250, Aiwa ADF-990 decks and these were stunning. The last two handled Metal tapes and had 3 heads for monitoring.
Heyee... that tuner on the title image was the very first FM/AM tuner I ever owned ... it was a Sony ST-70... it was only a cheapie but with a good antenna it worked well ...
Many options. At the simplest level in the analog domain a volume control can be a simple passive attenuator. In the digital domain things are more complex. Digital volume controls in some cases just chop of bits which reduces the available dynamic range and increases noise.
A volume controi is needed to do just that- vary the volume. I would lose my hearing and blow the loudspeakers if I connected say my CD player outputs straight into a power amplifier. A pre-amp lets you switch between various sources like tuner, cd player, etc and adjust the volume. Most of the amplifiers that I have owned were Integrated Amplifiers that combine a pre-amp and power amplifier in the same box. They have lots of inputs for CD, Tuner, Tape, and Phono. A volume control, Bass and Treble ( that I ignore), plus power amplifiers with Speaker connections on the back panel.
I think it's absolutely ridiculous if I'm going to spend close to $800 on a Yamaha 2-channel receiver that I also have to purchase a separate preamp and a separate phono preamp? It's 2020 folks... and no, I'm not naive. Been around audio electronics for a very long time. Maybe some people that go the extreme on separates are more of the naive ones...or it's all psychological. Technology has vastly improved from the 1970s and 1980s - even a vastly improved since the 90s. Sorry, this upsets me that people feel the need to tell me I need a seperate preamp and phono preamp in order to receive "Better Sound"... Smh (Not at all directed at you Paul! You are the best! :-) I do understand why people are doing it. To keep everything separate and clean and to have each individual component on its own. I get that. But it's not necessary (and not cheap!) just like it's not necessary that I absolutely have to have a turquoise colored turntable. It's just something that I wanted to do lol. ( Unfortunately they don't make that color anymore.)
Unfortunately I understand the question better then the answer. You say all a pre-amp has to do is to source-selection and volume-control. Source-selection = switches. Volume-control = pot-meter. No active circuits there, no amp, no tubes, no power supply. The only exception I can think of is the phono-stage. That could just as well be part of the turntable, or if you want separates, be one of your beloved phono-pre-amps. Now you have extra losses at connectors, interlinks, circuitry...
Quite so. The best "pre" amps I have ever heard are passive devices with (at most) a source selector and a volume control. The best of these uses discrete, high quality resistors as the volume control which makes it, in effect, a stepped switch. In fact I have never heard an active preamp of any description sound better than a passive preamp.
Just got off the phone with a great guy over at PS audio I was trying to find a Sprout 100 to demo and had called every HiFi store in the city. In a matter of minutes he had found a store for me to go demo the unit. Such a great company you have here. I'm 29 and if I like what I hear I'm sure you'll have a customer for life. Stay amazing guys.
Paul really enjoyed answering this question. So much passion.
I think one of the best benefits of separates now is that you can pick and choose the features you want from each and not be limited to what is available as integrated.
8-Tracks were still out in 74 and cassettes were starting to show up late 74 early 75. I discovered HI Fi stereo August 73 after basic and tech school when I went PCS. If you advertised in Stereo Review I probably read about your products. Back then I asked the same question about components. Your answer now has stood the test of time. 50 years!!!
This guy is a high end stereo GOD his explanations are grounded in fact not opinion and are easy to understand so that you can make similar decisions based on his advice both pro and con
I am a separates guy, have been for a long time. My modest setup consists of the Carver M500t power amp and the NAD 1600 preamp. I've had both for over 30 years now and am still happy with both. I have owned receivers and integrated amps but I love the flexibility of separates. Thanks for the video!
I Burn No More! Thank you for your reply. I feel honored. And of course you have to have separates.. it's part of your No Compromise Audio philosophy.
I'm glad your question got answered. What system do you use?
Ustaleone I have a big fat Dennon all-in-one 700 watt integrated. Of course PS Audio is the dream system
Richard Comerford Nice, I have a Marantz NR amplifier, it really does everything. It is basically a pre-amplifier, power amplifier, a DAC, a network media player, a tuner and a couple of more things. I love it! Coupled with some nice Monitor Audio silver tower speakers.
No Compromise Audio - the audio industry thanks you for not compromising on the amount of money you give them.
Every set of components is a compromise of some sort. I find that I don't get enough benefit (that is, any benefit audible to me) from buying separate everything to justify the costs, so high quality receivers are adequate for my needs.
I find the opposite, I love components. It allows me to repair/replace individual parts of the system. As opposed to janky receivers, which when they give out... its pretty much a done deal. Not saying this is always the case, but most of the time it is.
Great explanations!! I always used to tell my male clients it’s like buying separates for a suit 😅 much better fit if you can get a jacket and suit pants separate - Female clients washer & dryer (not as sexist 30 years ago). Mostly would explain if you need more power or inputs more economical and smarter to upgrade one and not forced to upgrade all (like your phono only input example from the 70’s) First integrated I bought was in 1987 SONY and that thing shook the house 😅 Besides that one, I always separate pre & amp.
Thanks for the quick overview.
There are other needs, which are very hard to find proper matches for today.
1. Phonograph cartridges:
a. Moving Magnet
b. Moving Coil
c. Ceramic
d. Selectable eq curves...
2. Tape head inputs for old reel to reel recorders/players also with selectable eq.
Paul, you are a very nice and patient man. I still have your PS Audio components from the '80s.
The original term for preamplifier referred to an additional amplification stage required for magnetic phono cartridges which had lower level outputs and was provided as a stage in an integrated amplifier. When big money vacuum tube equipment showed up the preamp stage and controls and line inputs were separated from what became referred to as the power amplifier which only had inputs for a line level source. Solid state technology recombined all this with a tuner section into a single chassis. Separate units for these functions remained for high end equipment even for all solid state components. We somehow became convinced that separates meant "better" along with the reappearance of vacuum tubes.
I finally get it. My father in 1970’s had 4 reel to reel players 3. turntables (78/45 etc). I always thought the thing with the Db gauges was a tuner but now I learn it was a preamp. Thank you.
It should also be mentioned that some brands have good power amplification and so-so preamplification (or vice versa) or are too expensive for one versus the other. So, having separate pre and power gives you the freedom to mix and match brands and models for the ideal sound quality to your own ears at your preferred price.
you might be able to help me answer a "burning question"
when I see the specification AUX Amplitude Gain : 6 dB
does that mean it can only increase the db rating by 6 db? aim is to increase the gain 3 channel mixer I have because using headphones and turning up the stereo volume generates noise and I hope to eliminate that
but if 6 db isn't enough to boost it to desired volume at the half way mark of the stereo then damn that would suck :p
@Joe Al an integrated may well have just a passive pot to attenuate the source and an amplifier with the appropriate gain configured as mono blocks (in one chassis but separate power supplies and amplification). Source selection can be mechanical or electronic based switch with it's own power supply. Bottom line, the answer needs to have some understanding of how their electronics work. Once you hook up separates, they are interacting together regardless. Integrated can be designed, and some are, to act like separates in one chassis.
I use a pre because my source is vinyl and my power amp has no gain.
@Joe Al I'm currently using a FirstWatt
F4. Has no gain hence the need for a preamp for all sources. Last tube/valve amp I was using can be driven to full output with 0.5V so didn't need a pre on a modern nominal 2V source. I need to get around trying out class D again. More single chassis monoblock configurations for hifi is available with the tech. The modules are small and cool enough to run a stereo pair in one reasonably sized chassis as true monoblocks.
Nice to see a lady on the site, yes it gives you flexibility to get the best sound you can afford
But then again that's like saying different turntable manufacturers have different sound so let me buy 3 and mix and match depending on my mood LOL - sigh, I get it but costly and just more units to plug in.
If all you do is to listen to music on one input source via a DAC e.g. from a computer, you really don’t need a preamp. A large preamp doing only volume adjustment is completely silly. My opinion is that my favorite architecture includes a transport or PC, a powerful DSP to carefully tweak the sound, a good DAC, a great power amp and of course great speakers. If you are still into vinyl, you probably want a preamp. Ages ago I had a CD player, record player, FM/AM tuner and cassette player connected to my pre-amp with tone controls, balance control, volume control and so on. With music being digital, now I need none of that really. I believe that most young people don't even know what a pre-amp is.
I do not think music is being digital but we do:). We decide to have it digital. I have almost 50% of my music on analog and 50% on digital. So I must have all - LP. CD, reels, cassettes radio, sat radio and PC . What's more i live in place where I must listen at moderate level and at night even barely heard. . For two reasons - my desired sounding and my neighbours comfort I use few vintage amplifiers all of them including "loudness correction". Precision control of input level to them is essential so I use my Bang & Olufsen to do the job of preamp.with additional remote volume. After manually setting desired loudness I make with B&O remote correction depending on music. My conclusion is that for proper using int. amp with loudness correction to set input level I need 100% additional preamp with controls. .
No matter how many times I try to figure out what preamps are for, I always seem to forget.
Today I searched again, and ended up here, again, evident by the fact that I had clicked the "Like" button here some time in the past, yet here I am again!
This is a great explanation, and it does seem to make sense to me now (maybe like the difference between using using individual tools instead of a Swiss-army knife), but I'll probably forget again in a few weeks!
But, I think you probably have to be in a situation where you _need_ a preamp to really understand the purpose of them, which is not the case for most people with ordinary equipment like receivers and stereos.
While it's true the basic function of a preamp is to allow source selection as well as volume control, high quality, modern preamps do much more. Namely, they will (i) add further gain to the signal which allows more dynamics, and in some cases, may be essential for your amp (some amps require a higher voltage source to sound good); and (ii) the addition of another linear power supply in your system's signal path also will significantly expand the soundstage and dynamics even further than the amp can on its own.
But, not all preamps are built to successfully accomplish the latter two...some are just volume and selector knobs (i.e., a true passive preamp).
The argument of which is better...passive or active preamps...has long ago been settled...active is the way to go if you're goal is to enhance the dynamics of your system.
Hope this is helpful.
@@Artemis_Prix This makes a lot of sense, so basically not all preamps are equal in a broad sense (because obviously they're not all equal!), so I suppose you would need to know _why_ you need a preamp before you just go out and mindlessly buy one because all the cool kids have them.
Like one person might buy one just for control, but someone else might buy one to make the sound better..
Thank you, you have just answered me a question in my head for years.
So you admit that all this is your fault, Paul! My bank account has suffered greatly because of you!...but my ears thank you, as does my soul.
Brian lmao...
Hah! Sorry Brian....
Did away with my preamp two years ago, haven’t missed it since. But I keep it in my rack because I’m an audio nerd and still enjoy looking at it. Sad, but true. 🤓
Keep it on your rack my friend. I have discovered something new. Finely crafted Turntables and Vinyl recordings that run at 45 and 33 revolutions per minute, imagine that !! So much ambience missing when you get rid of vinyl grooves in favor of optical etching.
@paul best That is a nice amplifier. It still rated at 750 mv input sensitivity. any more information on the powerless volume control. i cant seem to reference that.
@paul best Thank you i look again for the item. It is sometimes difficult to filter out disturbances in tube amplifiers. I like integrated preamp amplifiers so that i can have more user[s] capacity available. the jadis you mentioned has 100 watt output which is a lot for non commercial use. I can see that you take quality seriously, I want to build a push pull tube amp but i am not proficient at biasing the circuits.
Don't feel bad... I'm building a Pioneer blue light rig with the 707 reel to reel and the 1250 tape deck .
Anyway .. I just dumped 130 bucks a revwrberator that I'm never going to use. I'm buying the timer too .(about the same cost)
Um a completist and have to have the entire set.
This is so incredibly helpful! Everyone setting up a home audio/video system should watch this.
I have two sources, an Audiolab MDAC and a Leak Troughline FM/VHF radio [Mark I made in 1957]. Both of these have little class A output amplifiers with their own volume controls. Both would still use their own little class A output amplifiers if feeding a separate pre-amplifier with its own volume control. I don't have one. At the moment I simply connect up the source I want to the Quad valve power amp. I run mono alone with one speaker ...
What I really need is a two source selector switch without volume control.
But most people are not like me!
They probably do need a pre-amplifier for best quality.
My speaker was also made in 1957. One of the very first Quad ESL speakers made and still serviced to be be as good as 62 years ago ...
never believed in preamps before until i integrated one in my chain , completely agree with you Paul , thanks for your great
videos keep up the good work
Paul, you mention about a preamp needing a power supply, but what is wrong with a good quality potentiometer between source and power amp?, plus the switching doesnt need power, so are you over-complicating the signal path?
I did a music session in the early 80's . The engineer's preference for monitoring amp was a McIntosh home stereo integrated amp. It may had a receiver in it but I don't remember and at 17yrs I didn't know or care if it colored the sound compared to 'what's on the tape sound' because our demo sounded amazing, minus our songwriting of course.
My answer to the query is slightly different than PS's.
A: I prefer the front end of X brand and the power amp of Y. I have at minimum the paradox of choice if not real choices about how to get "my sound".
Peace
it is about electrical noise control, interferences between high and low power sections. Say it in 2 seconds time.
Good topic. I have a good condition now vintage (pre-cd era) Sumo Electra preamp. It has served me well for many years.
Making a comment after having paused the video at 1:03. Well what the person who asked the question is thinking about is called an integrated amp. Take it a step further, a receiver is a tuner, a preamp and a power amp in one box. Now there are amps that have built-in attenuators so you could hook up ONE source into it and avoid the need of a preamp. And even more common, there are CD players and DACs that have volume control which would also allow one to connect directly to a power amp, which would not require a preamp. But in both of those cases you have to pay attention to output impedance (of the source) input impedance (of the amp) plus the output voltage of the source and then input sensitivity of the amp. They also make passive preamps that allow that type of connection with the added advantage of having a switch for multiple sources. But YES, in one form or another you NEED a preamp, built in or outboard.
If you have an very basic 2 channel system. You can use an high quality streaming device ( like Blue sound) and run it directly into an high quality stereo amplifier. It won't play very loud but it will sound beautiful. With a few exceptions the best pre amp is no pre. Amp. One of those exceptions is an high quality tube pre amp.
Excellent answer to the question!
The compact cassette was introduced by Philips first to the public August 30 1963 at the Berlin Radio Show. Nowadays we call that IFA. By 1968, 85 manufacturers had sold over 2.4 million players. In the 70s until digital recorders replaced the format in the late 90s, lots of stereo cassette decks with Dolby B/C noise reduction and other features were developed.
There would have been cassette in '74, just beginning to come into popularity. 8 track, of course, was also quite popular in '74.
I bought a Harmon Kardon CAD5 cassette deck in the fall of 1972. The store was closing it out because they were going to sell the Advent 201. The first cassette decks with Dolby were the Nakamichi made CAD5, Advent 200 and Fisher RC-80. They were mechanically and electronically equal with very interesting design esthetic differences.
However many companies made lower quality stereo cassette decks as early as 1970. I had a Magnavox component cassette deck in 1970 which was a disguised Panasonic deck . The Magnavox had a wood cabinet and threw in two microphones to list at $120 vs $80 for the Panasonic . My friend had an Ampex all in one cassette player, amplifier with two stereo speakers. Even without Dolby his Ampex controlled the hiss better than my Magnovox, probably with a high filter of some sort.
I first remember hearing halfway decent cassette tapes play music in lat 69 or early 70 when a high school classmate brought a portable deck into school.
That was the start of the era of hifi quality cassette decks with Dolby B and cassette tapes were improving with brands like TDK and Maxell.
Everything old is new again. Vinyl records are making a strong comeback. I'm detecting rumblings of reel to reel coming back. I stumbled across this video is because I am looking for a way to use an older stereo receiver as a control preamp. Electronics manufacturers have dropped a lot of features that 60's/70's & 80's equipment had. One of those features is the ability to remove two jumpers from the back of the unit and separate the power amplifier from the preamp/tuner. Via those RCA jacks one could insert a graphic equalizer to tailor the sound to their liking or add a tape deck whether it be a reel to reel or cassette deck or all of these. RCA phono jacks are beginning to reappear for turntables equipped with magnetic phono cartridges.
The case for separate preamps and power amps was stronger in the 1950s when the power amps were big, ugly chassis with more power consumed by the tube heaters than going into the speakers, not to mention that you often needed two of these ugly things for stereo. Consoles from that era tended to put the power amps toward the bottom of the cabinet and I remember books and magazines with suggestions for putting them in a closet behind the wall on which everything else was mounted. You can still make a case for them on the grounds of avoiding cross talk and power supply decoupling, but with today's advanced power supplies, it's only the 1% who will be able to hear the difference. I also have to wonder how those advantages compare to the noise pickup and coloration one gets by adding a set of cables.
Hi Paul, i like watching your videos here in the U.K. I might be wrong, but i think Mr. Peter Walker who owned the Quad ( known previously in the 1940's as the aucustical company ), company was the first person to produce a seperate preamp and power amp. He was also the first person to develope an electrostatic speaker and the ribbon tweeter. His was a great British company that produced great sounding and fantastic looking audio equipment. Best regards, Oz.
Thank you for this video. I finally have an answer ( after many years) to what a pre amp is for and now I need to know if I really need one for playing my vinyl, which for me is my only goal.
I think most people want preamps now not because of volume amplification but because of the sound enhancement or ‘saturation’ a thin beam of velvety pure sound that a preamp can potentially provide. Some preamps are better at that than others, I would really like to know/understand what sort of technology is required to produce such sound.
Kentucky brown liquor is the tech you seek
One option a preamp privides is it lets you play with monoblock amplfiers loacted next to the speakers to reduce speaker lead length. If these monoblocks were integrated amps, just look at the mess involved with multiple inputs, and even just changing the volume etc.
Ooh! a thumbnail of my first stereo tuner - the cute Sony ST-70. That was 1974. My amplifier was a Trio(Kenwood) KA-2002 along with a BSR McDonald HT-70 and a Shure M75EJ cartridge. Nostalgia creeps in again .
The most practical reason to separate the stages is a bit overshadowed by the topic of sound-quality of the boxes and that to me at least is adaptability to the front- and backend of amplification. Preamplifiers have to fit to different sources and may incorparete phonostages for MM/MC, DACs, surround-processors and what not, which will only fit a limited set of sources perfectly so you have to make your choice of phono-cartridge or bitrates from your digital sources accordingly and may have been outdated on the latter already if you bought your preamp about 10 or 12 years ago. On the other end, the poweramp has to match the loudspeakers which may get costly if you try to satisfy the demands of everything you may ever come across, so you better compromise and choose the right match for what you have. Point is, in between these two stages of very different demands you have a common link of a simple left/right-channel signal where you can easily make a cut. This way you get the freedom to adapt to the front and back as needed and as your system and technology evolves. An integrated amp is either much less likely to be the best match to sources as well as loudspeakers or restricts you in the choices you can make on both ends.
I fully believe in separating jobs out to my components. Like you said a speaker that only has to handle a very narrow range will never work and it's life. Very true in Hi-Fi
Great question and excellent explanation! I love my Audio Research SP14!
I am 59 y.o. I have never met anyone who had a preamp separate system that I listened to music thru. I get the sense that therein lies the problem with many commenters. They simply have never had a chance to compare their quality integrated against quality separates to judge for themselves the difference. I would like to have the opportunity some time.
I need a preamp with tubes. Because I can hear the difference tubes make. I make music. I play music. Every professional musician I ever worked with used tube amps. Even tubes in microphones. I love tube sound. Reminds me of live performances. And my Mom's HiFi console playing LP classical music records. Solid state just dont cut it for me. But digital, CD recordings of live music played back through a tube system... Yeah. No turntable for me. Not needed. But me do need tubes 😄
I have a $70 passive preamp and it beats powered preamp under $1000 sound wise by a mile. Disadvantages: you wil to pay more attention to the impedance requirements of your source components. Your computer, it doesn’t care, some cd and DVD players they don’t care either. With some source components you need a powered amp. And you still need a phono preamp. If you pay attention to what source you buy a passive preamp would be a fantastic deal!
Paul: the audiophile that is concerned about technicalities and specifics, but is THE VOICE OF REASON! :-)
Ok I got that..
And I too.. finally, after 40 years understand !
thanks.
KCB🙂👍🇬🇧
Thank you for this great explanation! Yet my music is all digital I'd like to hear about volume regulation in digital domain and loosing/not loosing bits of resolution in the process. Currently I have a stepped passive regulator in between the DAC and the power amplifier.
Losing not loosing
Paul, do you remember mind blower speakers? They were a product of the 70’s.......I installed them in my Dodge van and they sounded absolutely great ! The amplifier was built on the back of the speaker......I would love to get my hands on a pair today!
Basically, a preamplifier is a device used to take a weak audio signal level, like 0.316 V RMS (-10 dBV), used by consumer audio equipments, and bring it up to the required line level (0.775 V RMS, 1 V RMS, 1.23 V RMS, etc) needed to drive the power amplifier to its ful rated power output.
Ideally, one would wish to have an audio source able to deliver a high output signal level between 1 V RMS and 3 V RMS, the higher the better, and match it with an amplifier with low input sensitivity (high input signal level), in order to avoid the use of an excessive amplification factor (voltage gain), which can have a negative effect on the amplifier frequency response curve (the amplifier behaves like a filter).
Personally, I prefer the use of separate dedicated audio components along the entire signal chain, connected to a high quality professional audio mixing console, using balanced connections on all inputs and outputs.
The mixing console with highly accurate level meters, allows me to monitor and feed the clean (unclipped) and required nominal signal level to the amplifier input stage and, therefore, drive the amplifier to its maximum rated power output without driving it into clipping.
The result is clean sound, amplifier thermal stability and happy loudspeakers.
Spot on Paul! There's a reason I'm designing and about ready to build my own low voltage preamp because the integrated preamp in my Canon DSLR isn't up to the task. Also I need a little more juice than PIP can provide. Hope you and the family are doing well!
This is a great explanation!!! Thank you!
Yes there were cassette decks in 1974. One of the guys down the hall from me in the dorms at Univ. Of Miami had a cassette deck in 1971. It was branded with an AMPEX logo. I’m not sure if they were really the manufacturer or not. We all thought it was the coolest thing going but it wasn’t very reliable. Maybe it didn’t like smoke. It played a lot of Moody Blues in those days.
Thanks for your insights and musings.
For anyone who uses a serious pre-amp:
Are you using headphones or speakers?
High impedance or low?
Do you "believe" in EQ/ coloring the sound?
Aside from input selection/ volume control, what are you getting from the pre-amp that you don't get without it, from a good source with a good DAC?
I've been using separates for years. First HK Citation 11 preamp/Citation 19 power amp. Until they gave out.
Now I use Parasound P7 preamp/A21 power amp. The phono stage in the P7 is superior to any previous phono amp in any receiver/integrated amp I've ever had. imo, the quality of the preamp is more important than the quality of a power amp. But when you have a combo of equal quality to each, so much the better.
Preamp modulates sine wave to add additional harmonics. Thats it.
I have to admit , that pre-amp sure looks good. There are some amplifiers that don't have toroids that big. Great stuff.
thankyou for doing this topic and going into such detail i’m like the writer that sent that in for many years i’m nearly 60 years of age and as a teenager i did purchase my first r”real “ Stereo system for my bedroom at my parents home i purchased separate Amplifier ,Tuner and my other components and my main gear was all ASE two equipment the A 7 had a preamp for my Turntable and i was pretty happy with that integrated one unfortunately 20 years later my 1 year old Son was fascinated with buttons and knobs and i watched him go to my Amp with the volume on full and turned it on Accidently it made him nearly jump out of his Diaper that got me hysterically laughing and it never worked again i gave it to a lifelong freind that is a Sound and Lighting man for over 35 years and at one time took formal Schooling to repair Equipment and had a small shop he never got it working or told me why it was shot i of course did check all the fuses and obvious hinges right away that Amp had always had a delay on turning on completely and that delay was getting longer over the years to me it sounded like a Relay as the lights and everything came on but no Audio and after a loud internal Click it began working normal. i’m on the hunt for one on Ebay that’s been recapped and fully serviced but i’m torn because some of todays modern Equipment makes more sense most specifically for Home Theater ,built in Streaming ,Bluetooth , and of course Remote Control that honestly Mama likes i’m okay with it too plus having the HDMI ports and the Capadibility to the Flat Screens we are using now i even take my modern Electronics a step further by. buying one Brand so the remote controls work everything without reprogramming them as we have multiple Dwellings ,plus Motor boats , Rvs , and multiple Entertainment areas like Shop , Office ,Etc FYI i enjoy your channel a lot i am not formally trained in Electronics but i am pretty well read and handy like i do have Woodworking Skills and generally install my own Electronics in my vehicles ,Boats , and Motor homes not to save money but mostly because i enjoy controlling my deadlines and dislike paying someone for innapropriate Craftsmanship
I ran without a preamp for a while because all I was using for a source was a cd player that had a level control and my power amp also had level controls, and that worked fine. Otherwise, a preamp is recommended. And...when I did buy a preamp - it was a PS Audio. :)
You're wonderful. It won't kill you to take the time and sit down and watch some UA-cam videos on the history of audio formats, like a UA-cam channel called Techmoan. Cassettes were around way before 74. Seriously, you sound like a busy active man, but watch around this great resource of UA-cam that we have in the palm of our hands.
Thanks, that cleared the question up for me.
I still use my Sansui AU-717, for my phono circuit. Hard rating to beat.
Pioneer actually introduced the first separates to allow the engineers and end users to mix and match for the best results within a given budget, and provide better isolation of sensitive components from noisy ones.
The whole purpose of fine tuning a preamp, amp or tuner and shoving all it outputs through a speaker should be to increase the quality of the sound, but can one's ears really discern the differnce between a very expensive system and a cheap one? Especially my ears that don't hear high frequencies well due to tinnitus.
Once i went the separates route, i never looked back. Even more reasonable separates seem better to me than high end integrated amps
I have to agree with you, if you want the next level of performance, separates is the way to go. You don't necessarily have to break the bank doing it. I could not afford new, just economics. I was paying good amount of child support, but I loved my music. Did my homework and put together a Rotel pre-amp processor ( know you're not a fan) and an Carver AV705X power amp. And Infinity interlude speakers and I had a very good sounding system for under 2k . But it does out perform any receiver I've heard . Thanks Paul
The Sony ST-70 am fm tuner !! Omg 😳... I bought one of those things from a second hand shop when I was 20 !! It was great 👍
I still don't accept that integrateds are necessarily inferior. To illustrate, surely a superbly well specified integrated is going to hold sway over an average specified separate. It also has the advantage of a shorter signal path. As I've said before, the two best amps I ever owned were integrateds. My Musical Fidelity KW 500 and my current ride, the VPI 299D. Both were designed from the ground up without compromise.
"I still don't accept that integrateds are necessarily inferior."
And I am inclined to agree with you. If there's one noticeable thing here, it's that mechanical connectors (leads) are the weakest link in the system. When it needs fixing, that's were you commence trouble-shooting. An integrated system usually has many more mechanical interconnects.
You did not explain exactly what you meant by the word, "compromised," by combining the amp and pre-amp. As far as I know with my limited knowledge base is, that could mean either by insufficient voltage or current, or by unwanted frequencies. The unwanted frequencies have to be filtered out anyway no matter what power supply the signal is associated with and as for the voltage and current, you just need to select the proper power supply that makes available the voltage and current needed.
You explained it like the pro that you are and I am sure that you are right. I have learned so much from you, but on this issue, I still do not see the advantage for the millions of us who bought them to listen to Motley Crew screaming, "Come on feel the noise!" We are a hopeless bunch. I really appreciate your insight into the audio industry. Thank you for all that you do, as well as, your input.
One more point. Dosn't the sound systems at Disney World sound superb? They have incredible bass, are very loud and have exceptional clarity. I wonder what equipment they use?
Thank you for this amazing sharing of your wisdom
Bravo! Well explained Paul.
You need a pre amp for volume control, Most power amps have no remote for adjusting volume.. Also you need tone controls this is most vital! many 'Audiophiles' would say i'm swearing but it is fact.. Also EQ is vital.. Listening to AC/DC yesterday 'Back In Black' it sounded dire very muffled and dull so i adjusted the treble and EQ hey presto it sounds as it should!. Recordings vary vastly from bad/good and you need to compensate for this. Even on Paul's IRSV's Back In Black would sound dull because it was recorded that way!
Masochists should just connect the output of a CD player directly to the power amp. Switch it on and watch the loudspeaker voice coils fly by you - and the neighbours decide that you must be got rid of !
In a digital system with a well designed DAC ( I'm thinking such as the mytek Brooklyn) a pre amp is not needed as the DAC acts as such, saving on components and cables and cost. This is my experience
My PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC does not need a preamp (built-in volume control.), but I use their BHK hybrid preamp for the "warm" sound that the vacuum tubes produce in the input stage. Hey, it's Digital reproduction, you "got'a" give it all the help you can!
I tried doing that with my Schiit DAC but the Missus objected to unplugging and plugging to change sources. Having a switch definitely keeps the peace!
Byron, "the best" I wouldn't go that far. "nonaudiophile", it has nothing to do with how much money one spends on their audio equipment. $100,000 or $100.00 if you "love" music and or audio equipment, your an audiophile. You play a musical instrument. You produce real musical notes, not reproduction. IMO, the ultimate music lover.
Keep on play'n !
2:40 Saul Marantz was the creator of the first (Preamplifier) named Console. Not Sidney Harman or Bernard Kardon Paul.
Thank you for this fantastic explanation!
Reason being is that if an integrated amplifier broke, you'd have to replace the entire thing.
If a preamp broke, you won't have to fork out a fortune to replace all your components. You'd only have to replace the preamp.
Kind of like a PC. GPU Broke? No need to buy an entire unit. Just replace the GPU!
equipment of this level gets repaired not tossed.
The "burning" question wasn't answered for me! The question is, "Does anyone need a preamp?" You answered the question, "Why did you build a preamp?" I have a NAD amplifier I bought at Goodwill. Do I need a preamp? For now I'm using the pot on the back. It would seem to me that any electronics between my signal source and amp would degrade the quality. So, do I need a preamp? What does that preamp in the video do that the pot in the amp doesn't? You say it is the only way for you to get the quality you want. Maybe that quality can only be seen on an oscilloscope? Can a person off the street--can I--notice the difference between a signal into amp only and one through your preamp? If they can, explain the difference. Answer the question. I am subscribing to your channel in the hope that you will actually answer the question in a future video from the user's point of view.
A good and fair question indeed. Paul do you have the guts to answer?
Most applications for pre-amps are for microphones. Additionally, the pre-amp is the circuit that provides phantom power for the mics that need it. From what I understand the pre-amp is used to get non-line level signals up to line-level, so if you are already dealing with audio signals that are line level then you shouldn't need a pre-amp at all.
a lot of actual musicians say it isn't so ! that all that extra filtering gives a more artificial sound One Famous singer said the best real sound he ever heard was threw a Pioneer sx1980 receiver powering a set of Pioneer HPM-100 speakers !
At a minimum you must have a volume control. That's the absolute minimum. With minimum one line level input and one volume attenuator level out....
@@HazeAnderson You are talking about studio pre amplifier which is not the same as a hifi system pre-amplifier. They serve different purpose. If you have a separate pre-amp in the studio is usually because it often is better than the pre-amp that is a part of the interface or mixer. Every hifi system has a pre-amplifier. Either built into the power amplifier, or as a separate pre-amp, or now in the modern world, it's often built into the DAC. Many DACs can be used as volume control with an option to have line level out as well.
If you look at a Lepai amplifier, it's about the size of the transformer of the preamp, and has a preamp, and a power stage in one.
Without performance loss.
Better junk than other stuff you buy,
Besides, the chip is invented in Japan.
Nobody needs one? Thanks! Just saved me 7 minutes!
Well explained. Thank you!
Not to mention it sells more stuff. The $350 Harmon Kardon stereo receiver/amp that I bought in 1975 still sounded far better than the 10K system i have now which still sounds like crap.
Many integrated amps have a preamp out and amp in. I have found that many integrated amps have a great power amp but a mediocre preamp and visa versa. Having these two components separate allows for picking the best of each (in your price range) to have a combination better (more to your tastes and preferences) than most integrated amps can allow for.
Humbucker
I've found this to be especially true of the phono stage on receivers and integrated amps. Getting a good phono pre amp helps. Many receivers are marketed to attract vinyl lovers, but they do not sound very good even if you have a decent turntable.
Has any manufacturer taken the approach of digitally separating/filtering frequency bands, then amplifying each band width independently, whereas if a speaker was to be a three way design (bass, mid and treble) with independent binding post to each driver, then a cross over network in the speaker would be unnecessary? It seems to be arcane to send the fully amplified band width (say 20hz to 20Khz) to the speaker, then have a crossover do all the work necessary to divide the amplified signal. Seems you could achieve much more precise sound if dividing first, then amplifying.
I have a please please please question. If I use the speaker out put wires to go to an amp does this create a problem? My denon 760 has no Pre outs. My SVS ultras right left center I’m suspect could use a little more power. At some point I will upgrade the denon 760, but I just got it in nov. Can I get by with speaker out to amp via rca adaptor? What’s the deference Pre out vs speaker out?
THANK YOU !! very much, you just enlightened my brain. I never knew what the heck a pre-amp was
Eddie
I didn't either.
I have a Yamaha a S801 inegrated amp.
I always wondered what a pre amp was for.
I did get a phono pre amp. Why?
Because I really didn't like the phono stage in the Yamaha. I thought the signal lacked punch. I was told that this was not unusual.
So I got a phono box phono pre amp upon recommendation. It takes up an input, but it was worth it because I heard such a difference once the pro ject phono box was added. But a separate component pre amp? Did I want or need it? A phono pre amp was for me was optional, but it would have been NECESSARY if my power source had no phono input or if my turntable had no built in pre amp. But what was this pre amp component thing about? Well, now I know I don't really need it. I am happy with how the Yamaha performs with all the other components. An integrated amp is an all in one. The only thing I NEED is a tuner. I decided to go with Serius Satellite. Done. This all sounds duh, I know. But my whole audio life has been about receivers...I live and learn, what can I say? Since then I have experimented with a Schitt Loki.
That's about it.
Thanks...
Mr.paul, I hope you will reply me. Which one is the most important for a tight, deep, punchy, clean and vibration free sound reproduction? Is it a power amp, preamp, eqalizer or good speaker? I have bought few AVR here in Kuwait but not happy bass effect. Also I am not interested in several channel like 5.2, 11.2 or up to 99.9. So pls advise which one I have to buy under 2000 dollars.
a powered subwoofer.
Good speakers! Definitely. If you have good speakers you can somewhat make the rest better by using parts that does reduce noise as Little as possible to the sound. But speakers Are the King. If you have good speaker but low quality amplifier, there may be extra his or even static noise. But there should Also be all the nyances of original sound. If the speaker can not reproduce the original sound no good amp can make it.
I heard it very simply once, you can't make shitty speakers sound good, but good speakers can make an adequate system sound great.
I use a preamp to drive a long set of interconnects to a tri-amp system at the end of my room, about 15' away from my source. A passive pre-amp, which I have in my DAC, will not do the job. The other solution would be three sets of speaker cables that would have to be about 20' long, or stuff the source equipment, (turntable, computer, BIG DAC) between the speakers with the three amps, possible but also problematic.
Paul, I wanted to offer you an honest and personal Thank you for the extensive education that you have given me, and the kind and clear and gracious manner in which you have offered it. Im going to be in your neck of the woods this summer and I will definitely come and see your facilities and perhaps even get to thank you in person. You have been a significant part of my path to the music business, a place that I now exist and find so rewarding.
Sincerely,
Bungeebill
Hood Rat Records
🎩 ✌️ 🐀 🧿
I wish I could say I had some PS audio components..... It's kinda my dream gear now that I got my Spec rig done...
But sadly my mother has been battling cancer for years and I alone pay all her medical costs and bills ..
I've had to buy sell and repair a TON of gear to get to attain the rig I am running now (pioneer spec 1&2 /tx9500 tuner / ct1000. Deck t/pl530 /rg9500.
I worked real hard to get it.
Maybe one day I'll get a PS phono pre
Maybe I missed something, Paul, but after watching the entire episode, I think if we take away the photo stage, aside from the dedicated power supply, the only thing the preamplifier does is switching inputs (and of course volume control), right? What am I missing?
My pre amp has a separate box for it's own power supply, I truly believe in separating as much as possible in my system. Doesn't matter what it is, dedicated machines or electronics will always preform better then all in one jobbies!
hifi noob 2018 h
I have to believe that all the wire connections between tuner amp and preamp degrade the sound thus negating the superiority of seperates.
Integrated amplifiers started to feature switches to bypass tone controls years ago. I tend to have the CD Direct facility on all the time.
Excellent answer, thanks!
your voice sounds like therapy. subscribed.
Hah! Thanks. I very much appreciate it. Welcome!
My first exposure to separate components was SAE (scientific audio electronics). They sure looked cool.
3:46 - in 1974, there were cassette players, but they, along with the tape formulations, really shat!
How aboat 8 tracks I had a Fisher, L.O.L
The Nakamichi 1000 came out in 1974 and it did not do what you said. It can still hold its own if the capacitors and pots are rehabbed. This was the first product that Nakamichi sold with their name on it and to call it anything other than state of the art for 1974 would be a crime.
But the question is how good it was. To untrained ears in the typical stereo store the tapes made on the 1000 sounded better than many reel to reel decks of that era. When they came out with the stripped down 700 it was supposed to be equivalent as far as audio fidelity. The next two that I remember were the model 600 and another whose model number escapes me (400?). These two were two head decks rather than the three heads of the 1000 and 700.
I still own a 1977 600 and wonder to this day if I should have bought the floor model 700 that was being offered in a nice suburban Chicago dealer (near Naperville, Illinois) rather than the 600 I bought at HiFi Hutch in Villa Park, Illinois.
The mid seventies were a fun time to get into audio. I am in the middle of recreating my mid seventies system. I hope my 600 is up to the task.
Not so. My first cassette deck was a Trio KX-700 bought from my cousin in 1974. It had Dolby B and could handle CrO2 tapes. Decent hifi quality ! This was the start of the era of great cassette decks. I have owned Pioneer CTF-9191, CTF-1250, Aiwa ADF-990 decks and these were stunning. The last two handled Metal tapes and had 3 heads for monitoring.
Heyee... that tuner on the title image was the very first FM/AM tuner I ever owned ... it was a Sony ST-70... it was only a cheapie but with a good antenna it worked well ...
Do all audio equipment have a sort of preamp? Whether built in or not, for example a Bluetooth speaker. Or is the volume control done differently?
Many options. At the simplest level in the analog domain a volume control can be a simple passive attenuator. In the digital domain things are more complex. Digital volume controls in some cases just chop of bits which reduces the available dynamic range and increases noise.
A volume controi is needed to do just that- vary the volume. I would lose my hearing and blow the loudspeakers if I connected say my CD player outputs straight into a power amplifier. A pre-amp lets you switch between various sources like tuner, cd player, etc and adjust the volume. Most of the amplifiers that I have owned were Integrated Amplifiers that combine a pre-amp and power amplifier in the same box. They have lots of inputs for CD, Tuner, Tape, and Phono. A volume control, Bass and Treble ( that I ignore), plus power amplifiers with Speaker connections on the back panel.
I think it's absolutely ridiculous if I'm going to spend close to $800 on a Yamaha 2-channel receiver that I also have to purchase a separate preamp and a separate phono preamp? It's 2020 folks... and no, I'm not naive. Been around audio electronics for a very long time. Maybe some people that go the extreme on separates are more of the naive ones...or it's all psychological. Technology has vastly improved from the 1970s and 1980s - even a vastly improved since the 90s. Sorry, this upsets me that people feel the need to tell me I need a seperate preamp and phono preamp in order to receive "Better Sound"... Smh (Not at all directed at you Paul! You are the best! :-) I do understand why people are doing it. To keep everything separate and clean and to have each individual component on its own. I get that. But it's not necessary (and not cheap!) just like it's not necessary that I absolutely have to have a turquoise colored turntable. It's just something that I wanted to do lol. ( Unfortunately they don't make that color anymore.)
Unfortunately I understand the question better then the answer. You say all a pre-amp has to do is to source-selection and volume-control. Source-selection = switches. Volume-control = pot-meter. No active circuits there, no amp, no tubes, no power supply. The only exception I can think of is the phono-stage. That could just as well be part of the turntable, or if you want separates, be one of your beloved phono-pre-amps.
Now you have extra losses at connectors, interlinks, circuitry...
Quite so. The best "pre" amps I have ever heard are passive devices with (at most) a source selector and a volume control. The best of these uses discrete, high quality resistors as the volume control which makes it, in effect, a stepped switch. In fact I have never heard an active preamp of any description sound better than a passive preamp.
Separates are easier to troubleshoot and usually easier to repair. They look cooler too.
Bloody well right.
I'm guessing a lot of the circuitry in the preamp would interfere with the poweramp and cause noise if they were combined into one unit.