Here's a video from the RMAF trade show in 2015 where the salesman had been trained in establishing good imaging, and offers this process in some detail. He recommends starting on the long wall of a room, whereas I am starting against the short wall, and he uses a particular recording that he names (such as Paul makes reference to), and with the speakers starting against the wall, start bringing them out until good bass response is achieved (this could be aided by measurement equipment - I have separate bass boxes so this is achieved before hand). Then he suggests adjusting the toe in until the vocalist is dead center - not too wide and not too narrow - and finally adjusting rake angle (tipping the speakers back) until the image of the vocalist is the correct height. I have been working this process for a number of weeks, and all three variables have to be played with back and forth to achieve maximum imaging effect. Really amazing when you arrive. BTW, the salesman claims to have successfully set up all kinds of speakers in all kinds rooms regardless of reflections, whereas my dedicated listening room has a bunch of standard absorptive and diffractive treatment. ua-cam.com/video/84Pf0ycbyBM/v-deo.html
I'm a young man 30s and just really getting into audio. My guitar led me here. What an amazing channel I have come across here at PS Audio. Man I wish I could afford ur products Paul
Try this. Put a mono cartridge on your turntable. Play a vocal recording. If one side seems stronger, toe the opposite side speaker a little toward you until the voice appears to be in the center.
Wise advice! I just spent weeks moving my speakers around and have finally found the best location for my room. The differences in response between locations was repeatable and identifiable. Once I found the distance from the front wall, moving the speakers closer together or farther apart was the final fine tuning. Time well spent.
skimmed through the vid. For dispersion across a listening area, you need to know two things: the horizontal dispersion characteristics of your speakers and the shape of the listening area you want covered. On axis, you get the full spectrum of the tweeter but as you move off by degrees - 15, 30, 45, etc - the beaming of the driver causes the listener to lose high end information. Having a horn loaded tweeter or waveguide can assist with this but adds other artifact. Having a smaller tweeter can help with horizontal dispersion as well but smaller tweeters cross over higher, so you complicate your build by adding a mid and a three way crossover. So, if you know your off axis characteristics of your speakers, you can get an idea of: what area they cover, how much toe in you need, how you need to arrange your seating, how wide your speakers need to be, and how far they need to be away from the listening area. The general rule of thumb for setup is to set up a equilateral triangle between the listening position and the two speakers with a 30 degree toe in, so that they're directly pointing at the listening position.
It isn't all about speaker placement in a room. If you want the right bass, that's not too lean or flabby, the importance of isolation can't be overstated. I was one of those guys who moved the speakers around again and again. But what cured the bass issue for me was to ensure the hifi components ( turntable, CD player and amp) got properly isolated. The learning point for me was to realise I could go further with isolation. When you get this part right - the good news is - you can put your speakers closer to the wall and enjoy bass. All this stuff on UA-cam regarding pulling speakers further from the back wall than the manufacturer recommends, is a compromise and cop out. So, what do I mean about going the full tilt on isolation? Well if you're still reading, I'll tell you. Putting an isolation platform under a turntable is not enough. You need to slip Soundeck mini damping feet under the TT platform as well. (Even if the dedicated platform has feet). Then, put these small disc feet (circular and 3mm in height) under your amp and CD player. My golden rule of hi-fi is "don't look at things in isolation unless you're looking at isolation."
Most loudspeakers give the most accurate response when they're directly on-axis to your head. You'd have to go out of your way to build a speaker that's more accurate off-axis. And if good imaging is the goal, most rooms require absorbers at the side-wall refection points.
To achieve sharp center image you can use dual mono pink noise (available at all streaming services). You adjust until the noise comes from a sharp point between the speakers. This position might not be what you want in terms of sound stage but at least you know where it is. Some speakers might even enjoy position beyond this point and work with extreme toe in.
Noone has mentioned speaker manufacturer recommendations. I always start there and work my way up to my taste. JBL recommends a 20 to 30 degree toe in on many of their lines including Synthesis.
Awesome! Thanks Paul. I just moved my system to a different room in our home, and I'm just trying to adjust my speakers properly. I had a quick look at "Paul's Picks" and I have a couple of the albums mentioned in it. Boz Scaggs and Pink Floyd, Welcome to the machine. I'll mess around with them and also my Bonnie Raitt, Luck of the draw CD. "I can't make you love me" is a good vocal track. Love your Vids!
I just checked out Paul's picks, Real amazing songs in here I'll have to get in higher fidelity for my car. I was really pleased to see Daft Punk's RAM in there, It's the CD I keep in my car and play to show people what my simple but effective system can accomplish.
The best toe-in I do , is listening to hi-hats....if those sound squeezed (or phased, it's has too much center direction. Your ears will tell you if it's right or 'true', don't stop , and more importantly, close your eyes when you sit/stand in your sweetspot...
On my ML stats it said to place a flash light in the listing position and align the reflection in the center of the panel but that was just a starting point. and even with the curved panel their still very directional and took a few times to get it just right for my ears.
Great explanation, Paul - thanks! The thing that concerns me most about sound-staging is that while I can pretty much hear different instruments in their different places, it seems that most recording engineers (?), mic pianos so that the piano appears across the entire stage, from low notes on the right to high notes on the left channel (or the reverse). Rather than have several different instruments individually recorded then mixed to some engineer's liking, I always prefer those single-point stereo sessions where even the piano sits in one place. 😃
Thank You Paul your videos are always very informative. I am going to put myself in the misunderstood column since I loath the idea I have to set in a specific spot to hear the music like a monkey on a chain. However I am not an audiophile either nor a purist and think subwoofers and DSP set to compliment passive speaks could alleviate some of this problem.
50% of returns are from improper setup? This is exactly why I differed in opinion about what to upgrade first. Paul always says the speakers. I say the room conditions. We had the same problems selling audio gear. My solution, which the marketing didn’t like because it put a delay in impulse purchasing, was to start with a good foundation. When you help the customer prepare the space and system, whether actually or philosophically, they’re far more likely to bring in other business.
I totally agree. We would get a performance report every week and a big face to face every 4 months. I admit my KPI's were on the low side. I told the manager I put the customer first and won't rip them off. He said our sales figures are the priority.
How about surround speakers in a home theater? Speakers tend to be further away and you might think you need to toe in when the distance is say 10 feet or more.
In this matter I have noticed that while it's almost always advised to toe in speakers a bit, in advertical pictures the speakers are practically always straight forward. Is that because it looks better in picture?
An AOYUE 852 SMD soldering station!! I would have expected a high quality brand like Hakko, Metcal, JBC, ERSA, PACE or Weller for a high end audio equipment manufacturer.
So, I"m going to go back a century. As a student of old analog audio I start with the Victor Orthophonic. How about voicing of monophonic speakers to make a realistic sound stage?
If you only have one main listening position in a really small room, seated 6ft away from the speakers, would toe in still work? Wouldn't they make the sound a tad more bright? I just got the Denon X3700H which to me is on the brighter side. I always wanted to try toe in but not sure if it would work. 🤔
Oh yes, set up is a problem for most, I have done many both pro and home, some easy and fast others many many hours. After , people are shocked what they were missing and thought the answer was new gear, often not, sometimes yes.
What I find weird of this video is; You should not look at the speakers, but listen to the image....Equilateral setup only works in a perfect equilateral room without objects(!)
Sounds like a 1 hour demo youtube video should be made. start with awful positioning with gradual improvements in speaker placement. Maybe product returns will drop in half.
Paul - you won't answer this because you are invested in your company's products. Explain to us readers and watchers, how a $2000 power cable is going to make a difference. What I mean is - do you think that the electric company is running $2000/foot electrical cable to your house? So how can you say that the last little bit makes a difference. Paul - I agree with 99% of what you spout - yet the power cable snake oil needs investigation. Best, Div From Key West FL.
I have actually answered that question more than a few times. You might Google it to see. I do a separate daily blog post called Paul's Post and there you can find several rather detailed explanations. And, we do not make $2,000 power cables. If you're actually interested in finding out why, as opposed to just looking for an argument (I never know which is on people's minds), you have to remove the idea that the power cord is the last few feet of hundreds supplied by the power cable. Thought like that, in a vacuum, of course it's a silly notion. But remembering two things: that the electrically noisiest place in your home is the stereo system (or computer) and that the power from your wall is AC, can help you understand a bit why the power cable is important. Stereo systems are sensitive to electrical noise (EMI) and they also generate a great deal of that noise. Using a well shielded power cable (properly shielded with the shield terminations on only one end) can help a great deal quieting systems down and improving their performance. Also, because the power is AC (alternating current) the powered piece of equipment is in the middle of the power line, not the end. The way you terminate that middle connection to a power transformer affects sound quality. Lastly, the gauge of the wire has a clear impact on sound quality. It's an experiment you can do yourself using differing gauges of wire, differing types (solid or stranded) to see what the differences are. Those experiments are easy and cheap to perform and, if you have a highly resolving system, you'll easily hear differences.
Yeah thing is the bit all these vids leave out is how it all means nothing as soon as you move your head, If you care enough to take advice on moving speakers by a tiny amount so you can sit perfectly still in a specific seat, buy headphones.
Here's a video from the RMAF trade show in 2015 where the salesman had been trained in establishing good imaging, and offers this process in some detail. He recommends starting on the long wall of a room, whereas I am starting against the short wall, and he uses a particular recording that he names (such as Paul makes reference to), and with the speakers starting against the wall, start bringing them out until good bass response is achieved (this could be aided by measurement equipment - I have separate bass boxes so this is achieved before hand). Then he suggests adjusting the toe in until the vocalist is dead center - not too wide and not too narrow - and finally adjusting rake angle (tipping the speakers back) until the image of the vocalist is the correct height. I have been working this process for a number of weeks, and all three variables have to be played with back and forth to achieve maximum imaging effect. Really amazing when you arrive. BTW, the salesman claims to have successfully set up all kinds of speakers in all kinds rooms regardless of reflections, whereas my dedicated listening room has a bunch of standard absorptive and diffractive treatment.
ua-cam.com/video/84Pf0ycbyBM/v-deo.html
This is what i did and haven’t looked back.
I'm a young man 30s and just really getting into audio. My guitar led me here. What an amazing channel I have come across here at PS Audio. Man I wish I could afford ur products Paul
TJ Donaldson in my early 20s, same story. Now I’m building effects processors, preamps, cables, just about everything I need.
Try this. Put a mono cartridge on your turntable. Play a vocal recording. If one side seems stronger, toe the opposite side speaker a little toward you until the voice appears to be in the center.
Wise advice! I just spent weeks moving my speakers around and have finally found the best location for my room. The differences in response between locations was repeatable and identifiable.
Once I found the distance from the front wall, moving the speakers closer together or farther apart was the final fine tuning.
Time well spent.
skimmed through the vid. For dispersion across a listening area, you need to know two things: the horizontal dispersion characteristics of your speakers and the shape of the listening area you want covered. On axis, you get the full spectrum of the tweeter but as you move off by degrees - 15, 30, 45, etc - the beaming of the driver causes the listener to lose high end information. Having a horn loaded tweeter or waveguide can assist with this but adds other artifact. Having a smaller tweeter can help with horizontal dispersion as well but smaller tweeters cross over higher, so you complicate your build by adding a mid and a three way crossover. So, if you know your off axis characteristics of your speakers, you can get an idea of: what area they cover, how much toe in you need, how you need to arrange your seating, how wide your speakers need to be, and how far they need to be away from the listening area. The general rule of thumb for setup is to set up a equilateral triangle between the listening position and the two speakers with a 30 degree toe in, so that they're directly pointing at the listening position.
It isn't all about speaker placement in a room. If you want the right bass, that's not too lean or flabby, the importance of isolation can't be overstated. I was one of those guys who moved the speakers around again and again. But what cured the bass issue for me was to ensure the hifi components ( turntable, CD player and amp) got properly isolated. The learning point for me was to realise I could go further with isolation. When you get this part right - the good news is - you can put your speakers closer to the wall and enjoy bass. All this stuff on UA-cam regarding pulling speakers further from the back wall than the manufacturer recommends, is a compromise and cop out. So, what do I mean about going the full tilt on isolation? Well if you're still reading, I'll tell you. Putting an isolation platform under a turntable is not enough. You need to slip Soundeck mini damping feet under the TT platform as well. (Even if the dedicated platform has feet). Then, put these small disc feet (circular and 3mm in height) under your amp and CD player. My golden rule of hi-fi is "don't look at things in isolation unless you're looking at isolation."
Most loudspeakers give the most accurate response when they're directly on-axis to your head. You'd have to go out of your way to build a speaker that's more accurate off-axis. And if good imaging is the goal, most rooms require absorbers at the side-wall refection points.
To achieve sharp center image you can use dual mono pink noise (available at all streaming services). You adjust until the noise comes from a sharp point between the speakers. This position might not be what you want in terms of sound stage but at least you know where it is. Some speakers might even enjoy position beyond this point and work with extreme toe in.
Noone has mentioned speaker manufacturer recommendations. I always start there and work my way up to my taste. JBL recommends a 20 to 30 degree toe in on many of their lines including Synthesis.
Awesome! Thanks Paul. I just moved my system to a different room in our home, and I'm just trying to adjust my speakers properly. I had a quick look at "Paul's Picks" and I have a couple of the albums mentioned in it. Boz Scaggs and Pink Floyd, Welcome to the machine. I'll mess around with them and also my Bonnie Raitt, Luck of the draw CD. "I can't make you love me" is a good vocal track. Love your Vids!
I just checked out Paul's picks, Real amazing songs in here I'll have to get in higher fidelity for my car.
I was really pleased to see Daft Punk's RAM in there, It's the CD I keep in my car and play to show people what my simple but effective system can accomplish.
The best toe-in I do , is listening to hi-hats....if those sound squeezed (or phased, it's has too much center direction.
Your ears will tell you if it's right or 'true', don't stop , and more importantly, close your eyes when you sit/stand in your sweetspot...
Paul, make a cd with tracks selected to go with an instructional youtube vid on speaker setup and we'll buy that cd!
#metoo
On my ML stats it said to place a flash light in the listing position and align the reflection in the center of the panel but that was just a starting point. and even with the curved panel their still very directional and took a few times to get it just right for my ears.
Great explanation, Paul - thanks! The thing that concerns me most about sound-staging is that while I can pretty much hear different instruments in their different places, it seems that most recording engineers (?), mic pianos so that the piano appears across the entire stage, from low notes on the right to high notes on the left channel (or the reverse). Rather than have several different instruments individually recorded then mixed to some engineer's liking, I always prefer those single-point stereo sessions where even the piano sits in one place. 😃
I do use both ears and test Equipment specially for the bass response under 100 Hz
Thank You Paul your videos are always very informative. I am going to put myself in the misunderstood column since I loath the idea I have to set in a specific spot to hear the music like a monkey on a chain. However I am not an audiophile either nor a purist and think subwoofers and DSP set to compliment passive speaks could alleviate some of this problem.
50% of returns are from improper setup? This is exactly why I differed in opinion about what to upgrade first. Paul always says the speakers. I say the room conditions. We had the same problems selling audio gear. My solution, which the marketing didn’t like because it put a delay in impulse purchasing, was to start with a good foundation. When you help the customer prepare the space and system, whether actually or philosophically, they’re far more likely to bring in other business.
I totally agree. We would get a performance report every week and a big face to face every 4 months.
I admit my KPI's were on the low side. I told the manager I put the customer first and won't rip them off. He said our sales figures are the priority.
Looks like you got some Schiit on the shelf. Nice!
How about surround speakers in a home theater? Speakers tend to be further away and you might think you need to toe in when the distance is say 10 feet or more.
In this matter I have noticed that while it's almost always advised to toe in speakers a bit, in advertical pictures the speakers are practically always straight forward. Is that because it looks better in picture?
Paul... You need a white board and markers....
He's done that in the past
Agree with this, only when you go nearfield major toe in is required otherwise just do slight changes
I'm most interested in learning about setup than anything else.
Never had a set of speakers that I didn't "toe in". Usually pointed to my listening station (chair).
An AOYUE 852 SMD soldering station!! I would have expected a high quality brand like Hakko, Metcal, JBC, ERSA, PACE or Weller for a high end audio equipment manufacturer.
So, I"m going to go back a century. As a student of old analog audio I start with the Victor Orthophonic. How about voicing of monophonic speakers to make a realistic sound stage?
Should the speakers be a similar distance from the side walls?
If you only have one main listening position in a really small room, seated 6ft away from the speakers, would toe in still work? Wouldn't they make the sound a tad more bright? I just got the Denon X3700H which to me is on the brighter side. I always wanted to try toe in but not sure if it would work. 🤔
Oh yes, set up is a problem for most, I have done many both pro and home, some easy and fast others many many hours. After , people are shocked what they were missing and thought the answer was new gear, often not, sometimes yes.
Are those Adam Audios in the back? :) or just some other ribbon-tweeter by coincidence?
Nice Schiit Valhalla you have there ;)
very important subject, im always fussing with this, want to get a consultant sometimes , thanks Paul
Check out the bob Robbins seminar video, there's a link in the comment left by speaker builder,
@My Name thanks for the helpful reply, it is a long enjoyable game. ;-))
Same for Home Theater setup?
Adjusting with Qsound :)
Hard for me to move my speakers around like Paul suggest's. They weigh 105 lbs. each.
it's worth it, placement is everything and it's free
Get a set of furniture sliders
Don't ask Paul what you should do about this, he'll probably tell you to sell em !!
@@paulwibb.8944 😂😆🤣
@Larry Niles you make about erm,, NO sense, whatsoever.
I tuned my system, with 1970's Pink Floyd music!
What I find weird of this video is; You should not look at the speakers, but listen to the image....Equilateral setup only works in a perfect equilateral room without objects(!)
Sounds like a 1 hour demo youtube video should be made. start with awful positioning with gradual improvements in speaker placement. Maybe product returns will drop in half.
Jim Smith can help your memory Paul
Not after what Mary Jane did to him.
Dankeschön 🔊🔊🤗🔊🔊🤗🔊🔊🤗🔊🔊🤗
My woofer bit me, and my tweeters flew away!
Paul - you won't answer this because you are invested in your company's products.
Explain to us readers and watchers, how a $2000 power cable is going to make a difference.
What I mean is - do you think that the electric company is running $2000/foot electrical cable to your house?
So how can you say that the last little bit makes a difference.
Paul - I agree with 99% of what you spout - yet the power cable snake oil needs investigation.
Best,
Div From Key West FL.
If you really wanted the answer to why power cables matter. You would have Googled it yourself, or searched videos on here, like I did.
I have actually answered that question more than a few times. You might Google it to see. I do a separate daily blog post called Paul's Post and there you can find several rather detailed explanations. And, we do not make $2,000 power cables. If you're actually interested in finding out why, as opposed to just looking for an argument (I never know which is on people's minds), you have to remove the idea that the power cord is the last few feet of hundreds supplied by the power cable. Thought like that, in a vacuum, of course it's a silly notion. But remembering two things: that the electrically noisiest place in your home is the stereo system (or computer) and that the power from your wall is AC, can help you understand a bit why the power cable is important. Stereo systems are sensitive to electrical noise (EMI) and they also generate a great deal of that noise. Using a well shielded power cable (properly shielded with the shield terminations on only one end) can help a great deal quieting systems down and improving their performance. Also, because the power is AC (alternating current) the powered piece of equipment is in the middle of the power line, not the end. The way you terminate that middle connection to a power transformer affects sound quality. Lastly, the gauge of the wire has a clear impact on sound quality. It's an experiment you can do yourself using differing gauges of wire, differing types (solid or stranded) to see what the differences are. Those experiments are easy and cheap to perform and, if you have a highly resolving system, you'll easily hear differences.
toe in restricts the sound stage..................it all depends on speakers, room etc
The book with my Dali's say face straight down the room. My old Marantz in the other room ,yes toe in. Its a fascinating subject but God its annoying.
People do not even understand how room geometry affects sound. Toe in is the least of their problems.
I wish you could give out great marriage counseling advice I think if you did I would have still been married today😁😁😁
Yeah thing is the bit all these vids leave out is how it all means nothing as soon as you move your head, If you care enough to take advice on moving speakers by a tiny amount so you can sit perfectly still in a specific seat, buy headphones.
All I know is 0:14
eh...
Soo, you have...many(!)..."opinions", Paul? ....(extraterrestrial ALEEEEERRRRRT!!!!)
lol, this a joke? why behind the speakers? having an image for lead singer in front is bad? your brief explanation isnt very good.