I am suspicious of claims of audio nirvana, I don't spend time "burning in" components, but I will notice a tonal difference over time with some. If it was a matter of my "adjusting" to the unique sound, I would be noticing it with all, but I don't. Paul McGowan, I appreciate your honesty and willingness to tackle thorny topics,
Years ago I worked for a speaker manufacturer remanufacturing subwoofers mainly. I do know for a fact that there is a break in or burn-in time with speakers. It takes time for the soft components to loosen up and there is a drastic change in sound quality. I have proven it with checking the Theal Small parameters before and after. There are drastic changes on some parameters and not so much on others.
Even my cheap Edifier R1000 needs burn in. It sounds grainy, muffled and has weird frequency response out of the box. After a week it sounds just fine.
Andreas Landgren unfortunately there isn't some set standard time for break-in. It all depends on the materials being used. There are many different gauges of spiders which is the suspension for the speaker as well as cone and Surround materials vary from speaker to speaker. Typically it doesn't take too long. The most important thing is not to try to see how far you can push the driver when it's brand new give it a few hours of listening at moderate levels and then let it rip. I hope that helps you
I have a set of headphones that did not sound as good as they did in the store. I put them on one day, about 3 months after using them every day. All of a sudden they sounded fantastic. You are right about having a piece of equipment sitting around and needs to burn in again. My vintage amp was like that. I was thinking maybe it needs to be recapped but after about 15 hours of use, it sounded great again. I really enjoy your videos. You have answered a lot of questions I had about audio. Thank you.
I just recently had another experience with "burn in" with some vintage speakers. I rewired my mids in series (each speaker has 2 mids. Sansui SP-2500) and replaced the three capacitors in the crossover. When I first played them they instantly sounded better than they did before the mods, but I just couldnt get them to sound exactly like I wanted even after fiddling with the amp and speaker placement for about two hours they just sounded a little dull and lacked fine detail. I tried again the next day, but they sounded the same, BUT after another 2 hours of listening I jacked the volume on one of my favorite songs and all of a sudden they sounded great! I went back and played all the songs from the previous day, and the smoothness and detail that I was missing was now there. This was not my imagination, they still sound good today. It was the new caps "burning in".
I think the comment Paul made about re-burn-in after a time is spot on. I use a Class A amp during half of the year and Class D amps during the mid-summer air conditioning time. After sitting on the shelf for months, they do need time to settle back in for a few days.
I recently sold a Marantz PM14 S1 SE amplifier (ex demo) that had barely been used to a customer. He complained it did not sound as good as his other amp (same model) that he had used every day for over 18 months and was worried it was faulty in some way. He kept running the amp and somewhere around the 2-3 week point the sound became identical to his other well used amp.
It is psychological. May be he gave some inputs or changed to some settings. If this is real then it could be easily verified. Just get a amp and run a song or many song and using a recorder record it's output. After 4 weeks of good use record the same and check the difference. Why can't anyone do this ? It's so simple to verify.
@@adamjachymek5923 if there was a thing it could be easily compared using signal capture and instruments. There is no research papers on it and these claims are done mostly by users who does not understand the theory behind the circuits behind the sound systems.
The issue I have with the concept of burn in is that it's always described as improving the sound. I don't doubt that a piece of gear that goes through a burn in period changes in character a bit. But why is it always better? Are there examples of when it sounds worse? I never hear about those.
Exactly, and this very suspicious. I think people are mostly describing brain burn in and how they adjusted to the sound over time when they talk about their gear burning in.
I would expect small changes in early hours settle into a constant. Hours not days I would think. I could see this benefitting by running uninterupted to this point. And I never turn my amp off anyway! ❤
I used to set up burn in schedules for military equipment. When the equipment came out of production a full test sheet would be written, some of these were 8 pages long. The equipment would then go thought a 168 hour burn in, some were cycled on and off and the ambient was raised to 55 or 65 degrees C while it was powered. up. After the burn in the equipment had another test sheet written. The before and after test sheets were always different, they were both in spec but they were different. With military gear it was to insure stability and reliability. You would weed out any infant mortality's and insure the components were not drifting. You cannot afford a failure in critical equipment on a ship, plane or the space shuttle, the equipment HAS to work. This testing is why that gear is so expensive, it involves a lot of labor and the record keeping is crazy.. So the answer is that burn in is real, it causes a change in the way equipment operates.
Well, this is the first time I've heard someone talk about burn-in and made it sound credible. It's a refreshing change from cable burn-in, demagnetization stories and other nonsense. As they say, consider the source! Someone actually testing equipment, according to known procedures, gives me more confidence there's merit to the burn-in theory. As opposed to stories from people who sell pucks and speaker-cable stands against "microphonics". Thank you.
Gersberms, I am also one of those who believes cable burn-in is nonsense. One of my brothers was a Navy ET. When he had to replace a cable to a sonar transducer, he just replaced the cable, tested it, then went on to the next problem. Never worried about burn-in. Those cables were carrying signals from just above DC to 100 kHz or so. Likewise, when I was in the radar business, when I needed to replace a cable from the baseband output of an IF amplifier to the input of an A/D converter (DC to about 2.5 MHz), I just installed and tested. Never worried about cable burn-in.
If I was reading it right, the previous post was from the person who had tested those cables you were replacing with, and they worked because they were within specification, based on that testing. Now, whether you believe in burn-in, that is another story. I choose not to argue with folks about cables, magnets, pucks, or isolation devices like tiptoes. They are not going to change my opinion, and I don't really care why you disagree. Not being rude, it is just a personal choice, and I see no point in evangelizing my opinion.And it is just a hobby. Lets have fun and enjoy the Music :)
Actually Paul's preconditioned the returns shall be with customers' proof of burn-in exactly by 30 days and a second. Otherwise no returns shall be entertained. JK By fact, I dream to own ps audio equipment and never return it.... I am still smiling.... As it is a dreamed machine
Paul this is true, i have a Audio Research D450 class D and the dealer let me use this and he told me not to judge the sound right away because it would take 3-5 days for burn in and he told me to leave the amp plugged in. After the 4th day the amp sounded completely different and opened up and gave me both the power that i needed and the quality of sound. My dealer needed it for a show with Garth Powell of Audioquest. This amp was used with the ref 5se and Niagara 7000 and sounded amazing. The amp sounded almost tube like. The dealer left the amp on for 7 days. I borrowed the amp one more time after the show and bought it two weeks later and haven't looked back. Audio Research did a wonderful job with this amp, like I'm sure you did with the Stellar 700 series. My DS450 was horrible out of the box and made me want to plug my Vt100 MKIII back in, which I later traded in against the DS450.
Yes, my dealer told me that when he first got the amp in as a demo, he hated it for the first 5 days and he was going to send it back to Audio Research and they told him to leave it on for 5 more days because he would only listen to it for 30 minutes, get mad and turn it off. My dealer stated on the fifth day the amp started to sound pretty incredible. My dealer used the amp when they would hold events in different venues and two being at bars that had special rooms for live bands. That was the first time I heard the amp and I was floored. Unfortunately Audio Research, who redesigned their Class D and used a totally different type of power supply, is no longer doing class D. I have heard good reviews regarding PS Audio's Class D models. I needed the power without the cost of tube replacement, which was $1000.00 for the VT-100 MKIII.
If burn in is real, then burn in would make equipment sound worse as much as it sounds better. Why would equipment always "sound better" after burn in? That tells me there is a lot of inference in this burn in issue. As much ear burn in as equipment, as it always sounds better later.
I have found that burn in does apply to speakers without any doubt. Example: I just upgraded my 7.1 speaker setup. After 60 days or so, my Andrew Jones C22 center speaker began to exhibit a warmth & sparkle it did not produce when 1st installed. 2nd, my 2 Klipsch SF1 towers (1999 models) which I rebuilt, using original, but new tweeters and new Visaton woofers (original Klipsch woofers weren't available) to complete the refurbish. Even though the woofers were a stock stand in from Parts Express? The Klipsch towers began displaying a wide stereo image after 3 weeks of use. At times it sounds like there are speakers on the side walls when there isn't any. This was a "new" attribute to the towers after burn in. Klipsch are known for a tight but focused sound due to their horns. These are warmer now & cast a wider image than I expected. So, I am a firm believer in the "Burn In" time when it comes to speakers. ~ peace
tolerance rating of electronic components only determines how much their 'measured' values will possibly be different from their 'labeled' values. for example, in a 100 piece lot of 100 ohm resistor with 5% tolerance, each of them can have any value within the range of 100 ohm +- 5% which is between 95 and 105. there could be a 105 ohm resistor in the lot or a 95 ohm in the lot. tolerance rating is a 'what to expect' value, not a 'measurable' value of the component itself. and when a component's value in your equipment changes, there's a good chance your equipment will LITERALLY burn in.
Simple fact is, a capacitor is a component that actually has moving chemicals inside, any component that has moving parts needs a break in, but cables no way thats just BS
Agree with you here Paul, Many products I’ve owned over the last 4 decades sound better with some kind of break in period. Can’t say why or how to measure it but for me it’s always been about what do your ears tell you. If you’re a person that goes by measurements, then by all means go with that.
Thanks for taking time to answer the question. But burn in is definitely real. I having been using my Amp for a while now, tonally its not changed a huge deal but it just sounded flat and a bit lifeless, sometimes even broken. But after extended use its only now really starting to open up with more air around instruments and gaining depth and dimensionality. Dynamics is better and the music sounds more alive. The manufacturer recommends at least 600 hrs which sounds somewhat ridiculous but it does make a difference.
I had a Polk Audio subwoofer where the caps finally bulged and died. I ordered new caps from an electric company that were apparently higher quality than what Polk had installed and the sound quality was deeper and louder. it hadn't sounded that good when it was new! Whereas caps may need to be burned in, apparently having better constructed caps make a difference as well.
@@falcon048 When I remember sound from many years before, I have to temper my opinion. What if my hearing has changed? What if loss of high frequencies makes low frequencies sound better?
@@BlankBrain Agreed. I actually use my wife because: A) She doesn't give a flip about sound quality. B) She has no bias or understanding whatsoever. So, if she is capable of hearing a difference, then I know I am not crazy. ;)
@@evatheboxer7417 I have two BiAmp TC-120s and a Sony TAN-5550 V-FET amp. The STR-DH790 7.1 channel amp is Amazon's choice for "surround sound receivers." It's probably fine for watching movies. It may fall short if you're looking for high fidelity audio that thrills. If you read the reviews on Amazon, you may be able to form an opinion.
Break in period is very real, especially with headphones, i nearly returned my sennheiser hd 4.20s headphones, however after a few hours leaving them on the table playing mid volume sine tones they now sound absolutely incredible, always use mono tones to break in speakers so both drivers are done accurately and in balance.
Hello and thank you for all your informative videos. My Vincent SV 500 integrated hybrid amp at a three burn in was almost a night and day improvement. After 100 hours this integrated amp seems to have a lot more power than it's rated 50 Watts a channel.
Just want to say I appreciate what you do. It's always nice having a voice of experience around to help clear the smoke and the fog...and someone who knows the difference between the two. :)
I had never given Amplifier burn in a second thought in the past, as all my previous gear had been used stuff, but since buying a brand new amp and witnessing the change in sound over a couple of months, or maybe say, 100hrs of use, I can say catagoricly that burn in does take place and has altered the sound, I acctually boxed the amp back up initially to send back, as I didn't think it was that good, but a mix-up in collection led me to give it a second chance, and the amp won me over in a weekend and then after around 100 hrs or so I noticed it had gained an even fuller sound, subtle but noticeable, it's a strange thing because people think that it's just you getting used to the sound, but it's quite the opposite, as in you adjust to the initial sound and then it changes, then you get used to it again. My experience with a new amp has been a good one, as in the sound improved, hence I still have the amp and am happy so far.
Speakers and headphones can definitely change over time because of the moving parts involved. Things can loosen or tighten affecting the vibrations that are heard...that seems to make sense. But when we talk about electronics I have to lay the cause of any change on the brain. If you are old enough to remember the little transistor AM/FM radios we had in the 60's, you know they sounded pretty crappy, but after listening for awhile our brains could tune out the noise and enjoy the music. I think the same happens with today's audiophile equipment. You open the box, set it up, turn it on, and you hear everything that system is putting out, including the very low distortion, but eventually your brain learns to tune out the bad and hear the good. Just like the sense of sight adjusts to different bulb spectrums. In my workplace, after bulbs I had lived with for years were replaced by warmer ones, I swore I hated them and would never get used to them. Today they are second nature and seem just right. Our senses are flexible and adaptive, and can learn to see, feel, taste, and smell more than is at first sensed. In the same way, your brain can learn to hear more in the sound of a system over time...more details, more nuances in the sound...so again they seem to get better over time. This is my opinion, and if anyone ever proves, in a double blind test, using the same speakers, that he or she can hear the difference between new and "burned in" electronics, then I will eat the appropriate amount of crow.
Totally agree with senses. I wear eye glasses and every time I get a new pair my eyes have to adjust and kinda annoying. But after a few days the glass are great after my eyes adjust. I agree with speakers 🔊 to. New ones that are replacing the old always sound better but over time they sound normal to me and want something different. Light 💡 bulbs yes. I installed a bunch of Edison buds that have kinda orange glow that I wasn’t sure about at first and now I don’t even notice.
I bought a new PS Audio S300 and wasn't satisfied with the midrange. It sounded recessed. I was told to let the input stage burn in for 300 hours. I let it sit not connected to speakers with a preamp feeding a signal to it for 2 weeks. I made a point to compare the midrange to my Bryston 3B-ST as a reference. When I hooked up the S300 two weeks later, the midrange was much more forward, prominent and filled in great. It ended up going from sounding recessed compared to the Bryston, to more forward. Therefore, I'll give credit to what Paul said.
When you design and build a brand new product and try it out and it doesn't sound that good, how do you know if it will ever sound good if you can't tell until a week. And you can't really test it while developing it? Isn't that a gamble?
It seems to be real from my experience. I had an old set of earbuds that was going bad in one ear, but I could still get it to work by holding the wire a certain way. Bought the same brand and model again and it sounded noticeably flatter and more muffled than the old pair. I thought I got a counterfeit but a week or so later I compared them again and they sounded almost identical.
It the two sets of earbuds were made at different times, it could be that the manufacturer changed some of the materials or design of them, also. I've bought guitars that were the same model, and the manufacturer had cheapened things up in the newer model (cheaper woods, most notably.)
Over the years, many manufacturers tend to cheapen what goes in to making their parts. Infinity and their Kappa line is terribly guilty about this. Companies work to establish a brand and get people buying things and then they want to increase their profits and take advantage of the respect and trust people have for the brands. Infinity, Sony, Polk, Harmon, JBL, Bose ... all horribly guilty of this and making so much CRAP these days. A lot of these companies just buy cheap Chinese crap and slap their brands on it these days (especially the ones just listed).
my akg k712 pro headphones sounded terrible right out of the box almost at a point that i wanted to return them, i can't come up with fancy words to describe sound but it had terribly harsh treble and cheap sound in general. After about 12 hours it improved a lot and it kept improving every day
Exactly! i found the same thing with my sennheiser hd 4.20s headphones, after a few hours they sound amazing, this is a science, most new products need a break in period (wearing in)
Paul I'm a firm believer in burn in. Don't know how it works but it works. Speakers especially need break in. It took 6 months to break in my current system. As a result it sounds so sweet.
I can see that speakers that have moving parts can change over time and we know that electrolytic capacitors can certainly change over time (over hundreds or thousands of hours) but asking me to believe that components such as semiconductors for example need burn in time would be asking too much, simply because they have a defined operating characteristic out of the wrapper. We could not design and build reliable mass produced electronic assemblies if components changed after a few tens of hours of use.
Just recapped my headphone amp. When I turned it on, it sounded slightly better, but not what I remember before the original caps started to go out. About 10 days of listening later, it started to sound excellent again.
Ok, so burn in is real, but do I need to endure 8-40 hours of white noise before I can start enjoying my speakers? I bought Adam Audio TV5 and they recommend doing that, but I don't see why I can't just listen to music straightaway and just wait for the burn in process to take place. Do I miss the chance of using my speakers to their full potential if I don't subject them to hours of white noise?
Heard people say about burn in time, but really, you just get feel for the characteristics of the sound, and it makes you believe it's better than before.
I haven't seen a single evidence mentioned in the video that distinguishes "people burn in" from "equipment burn in" if there is any difference. There are lots of statements made though. another question: why the manufacturers don't do "burn in" professionally before shipping and leave it to amateur customers ? In fact, Sennhiser suggested in their website that their headphones are good as it is out of box, do not require "burn in". If there are audible diffenrences which can not be represented by measurements, it should be proved in the same way used in clinical trial in drug testing.
The simple side of burning in equipment is this, the theory that if there is a weak component in a circuit it will most likely fail within the first 90 days of service. When I worked for Intel we burned every processor we built. Now I wasn't only building production processors, I was on the assembly side of Intel's R&D. I helped engineers work the bugs out of new products before they went to market and I helped develope new tooling to manufacture product on. Now for us the burn in process heated the processor up to the temperature it would see when running at full speed, and we passed data through it, making sure that the data wasn't corrupted. When developing a new product we burned them in to the equivelent of ten years use, in steps, measuring how fast the processor was at different intervals. The last two products I worked on had minimal fall out, less than 1%, guaranteeing at least 10 yrs of use by which time the processor would be so far outdated that most customers would want to by a newer computer anyway. Audio is a bit different. The guys who built my speakers burned in the woofers long enough that their resonant frequency stabilized, then measured the Theil Small Parameters and built cabinets for them. When I bought mine with new drivers it took a few weeks of use for the resonant frequency to drop and the difference was amazing. The tweeters sounded less harsh and the woofers dropped in frequency to the point where they sound incredible today! They say capacitors take time to burn in as well, effecting the crossover network. So I would be prone to believe and look forward to the burn in process.
Why don't manufacturers burn in cables, hifi components and speakers? I used to make audio equipment and there was a part of the test where we left the units powered on overnight and checked them the next day. Hifi manufacrurers who sell such items that cost more than budget level equipment have a duty to do this I would say. It would cost them nothing to do! (apart from the electricity which is neglible) No manufacturer that I know of states a recomended burn in period - you would think they had listened to their equipment enough to have this worked out.
I have a Sony AV receiver thats puts off a burnt plastic smell, happens when its on for about 4 hours at normal volume. I'm hoping it will go away. I returned my other receiver because of this. Anyone know what this might be? Should I wait it out this time?
That last comment is very interesting. I actually took some gear out that had sat around maybe 6, 7 years. I didn't really remember the sound from back then but I was definitely disappointed with the sound now. I figured either my taste had changed or maybe components had deteriorated. But it was the only system available for a while so I used it anyway. A couple of weeks later I found myself really enjoying it. I did remember how it sounded all those years ago, it sounded like this! So things that are left idle do seem to need to burn in again. Or maybe I got accustomed to it. That is always the doubt.
Then i would like to add a question . when you develop/prototype let say an Amp and decide the sound quality, do you use "burnt in" components or burn them in as the development goes on?
What about audio engineers fine tuning products and listening test before it's boxed, isn't that enough to say it will sound the same when in your home depending on setup and right speaker selection.
In addition to what you've said, here, Paul, is the psychological aspects of "adjusting" to a particular sound (you mentioned this early in this post, but didn't address it much.) This adds an additional layer of complexity to the perception of burn in.
I've personally had a pair of headphones improve with burn-in. Until that day I was, at best, skeptical. Assuming similar ideas of the mysterious blue smoke changing it's wavelength.
@Çerastes yes it does, depends on the cans you have, it can be very subtle, some notice it and some not. personally I had some units that had a noticeable change over time (200 hours+) and some that didn't
I'm a audio engineer I'll say that it's not really changing too much burn in does work but wear and tear also is a factor. Playing like pink noise for 10 to 72 hours could change some other drivers like bicellulose or crystal drivers but it makes them softer making them break easier so be careful in burn ins too much is not good for earphones or headphones.
I can understand burn in from a speaker and stylus perspective since these have moving components. But not sure about electronic components, they should test the same new and as they age. If they drift or go out of spec then they need to be replaced. I would think they degrade over time and the amount depends on the load and the type of component it is. Burn in I would think is more QC. Yes I agree cables are another story. It’s really physics.
Paul O have watched several of your videos, and I really like your style of presentation. What I do find is when you get to discussion like burn in there is little to no data. Is it measurable? If it takes days to sound right, then it should be measurable. If caps take time to form, then that should be easily measurable. Lytic's especially the old lytics I can see. Also since lytics are typically used in the power supplies, and many typically in parallel, the effect of the caps forming should not be noticeable. The human ear is a wonderful creation, but and good scope is better. Plus you and I are about the same age, I know my hearing is not the same as when I was 20. So, hearing very subtle differences is very hard to believe, so help me out here give us some data. I have looked high and low and can't find anything.
I got some $13 earbuds from a gas station cause I needed some urgently. They sound pretty bad and usually in music the music blocks off people voices. Was wondering quickly if I should burn them in for how long.
I started my career in radio and audio as an Apprentice Radio Tradesman in the 1970s. I serviced and repaired radio/audio equipment that used vacuum tubes and transistors. Reel to reel tape decks, turntables, amplifiers, tuners etc. In the 80s we moved into the CDs about the same time the quality of HIFI equipment plummeted to cheap nasty plastic rubbish. I bailed out of that game and completed a digital electronics course and moved into computers around 1988. I my time I never heard of 'burn in'. And I hear silly things these days like 'point to point wiring' produces better sound and 'monster cable' is the way to go. And sales people who claim to be 'HIFI' experts but have no idea what RMS means. I guess it's just a sign of the times.
Isn't it wierd how audio gear only gets better with burn in? Statistically this is impossible to have such a huge percentage of audio gear sounding better with burn in than audio gear sounding worse with burn in. The science end of this mostly points to human sensory acclimation. Your just getting more familiar with something the langer you have it. The small percentages in audible difference these elecrical components cause after warm up or burn in are very unlikely to heard. Unless maybe you have very good gearing and a very good highly resolving audio system, which 99% of people dont have.
I read an article on speaker burn in. the same person got hold of a new boxed same speakers a year later and found there was a big different in the sound so speakers do change ..
i had my Naim system serviced..everything except the CD player..power supplies, pre and mono power amps..for the first week i noticed loss of bass and a 'flat' sound..not bad, just different...over time they improved and seemed to lose the bright, forward sound and the bass settled down..Some bass is boomy but my room needs treatment.. A month later the sound has a 3 dimensional quality and a smooth purity to it..The bass has tightened and only one recording has subsonic booming...I'm certain that some of this is due to my ears getting used to the higher levels of treble after the service, but i also think that the sound did genuinely improve... However, i DO think that a LOT of audiophile stuff is nonsense..Burn in is part placebo, but there is an element of truth in it..I do wonder however, if a component 'burns in' after say, 80 hours, how does it remain stable and not begin to degenerate for the next 80 hours??
Paul is right as electrical burn-in is a very real process. But without discerning ears it really doesn't matter as most nothing does. But for those with any kind of discerning ear, burn-in is actually quite predicable. For example. If one were to replace all their AC plugs and IEC inlets and AC outlets at the same time with superior aftermarket (preferrably cryo-treated) parts and then play music (loud or soft) round the clock, you should notice the burn-in jump or improvement right around the 53 hour mark + -1 hour. Same time frame for fuses, AC and IEC inlets, and other simple electrical parts. But if one lacks discerning ears and/or their system already sounds tremendously unmusical, they probably will not hear any difference. The bigger and/or more complex electrical objects, i.e. cables or components the longer the burn-in process will take to reach full burn-in status.
Wow, thanks Paul. I find this of particular interest right now, because I've just restored a Sansui 6060 vintage receiver, including a recap and it sounds really bright and harsh, with lots of sibilance. Really fatiguing. Before the recap it sounded much nicer. Vintage Sansui receivers are known to sound lovely and sweet, so I was starting to wonder if I'd done something wrong, even it's working perfectly. I guess I'll give it some time and see if it improves any.
@@gino3286 it was a near full recap, including the signal path. It's been in daily use ever since and has improved, but I'm intending to switch out the film caps that I replaced a few of the small value electrolytics with, especially in the pre-amp/ tone board, as research has suggested that could be the cause. There was also a massive jump in volume after re-capping the pre-amp board too. I did also replace the fuse resistor at the same time though as that was massively out of spec. It's possible that could account for the volume jump too. Unfortunately life has been a little too busy to work on it recently and I've had difficulty finding a known legit source of quality low esr small value caps. The UK is terrible for buying electronics components unfortunately.
@@juddery i am not an expert but if you have used decent quality caps from voltage rails to ground it should be ok Caps in the signal path may impact the sound more You will find recommended parts in the Web if you search This is the reason why designers try to keep them to a minimum However very old caps should be replaced always i understand Good luck and best regards gino
@@gino3286 yeah, that's what I thought. I used all good quality components, including Wima film caps to replace a few low value 0.47uf and 1uf 50v electrolytics, however, it was after rebuilding the pre-amp/ tone board that everything got a little harsh. A few people have suggested that using film caps in that circuit instead of polarised electrolytics, may be the cause of the issue, due to affecting the intended design of the circuit. I've just ordered some Nichicon FG caps to swap with the Wima film caps snd see if it makes any difference. I'm in the middle of packing to move house right now though, so fitting them will have to wait until after I've moved.
@@juddery i see To be honest i have to say that I don't use tone controls at all and i listen only to digital sources I have done some basic DIY and I have the impression that passive parts can have a sound not only caps but also resistors if you like the sound bypassing tone controls that is a very good thing At least you have spotted the critical circuit I like minimalism a lot But parts selection after the design and before the construction is a key phase I wish you all the best Bye gino
I have just bought some Sound Magic in ear earphones on the strength of rave reviews (you dont get to test those in the shop) and on getting them home was pretty disappointed. Played them at max level for 24hrs and they are transformed. That could be the mechanical parts bedding in like the brakes on your car. I have never heard such a difference on purely electronic components burning in.
I had a ribbon tweeter that took weeks before it started sounding good. It sounded very harsh and metallic at first. After a while it sounded just fine.
Hi, is burn in relitive to time/ temperature, frequency or perhaps voltage, also how does a product test out at the manufacturing stage if components and any cabling aren't yet burnt in ?
I second the notion that if they are using a reference component that has been operating for a while, it has stabilized and whatever they are using to fine tune the product will work under the assumption that the new manufactured copy would also have to stabilize in order to match the final tuned spec.
In my opinion, especially ‚wet‘ = electrolytic caps need a long long long time to format. With good Hi-Fi playback, it needs at least 0,5 year up to 2 years for formatting long life electrolytic caps (105+ Celsius). Then you have about 10-15 years good plateau quality, depending on how big the capacitors are. After this time, especially small electrolytic caps begin to loose quality. Huge, high quality power supply caps, which are not leaking, can stay in an amp for at least 30 years. On the other hand, today’s electrolytic caps are sometimes far higher quality (ripple current, low impedance..) than 20-40 years ago. Depends...
Can only say, I've had two Ortofon phono cartridges, a Red and a Blue. Maybe not high end but nice nonetheless. They both sounded like crap for the first half hour of use and then began to settle in. After a few weeks use they sounded great!
Thanks Paul for removing the snake oil talk of this topic I do believe in I've heard it for a fact and what you confirming this only makes me believe it is true now thank you so much once again I love when you explain stuff
I hear that this guy is an engineer, so he can measure and calculate things. Why doesn't he?? If he wants to be taken seriously by serious people, he should show the difference in measurements due to "burn in" or not talk about this.
I hated my rockerverb mkiii till I almost blew it up powering it on without a cab attached. It blew a fuse once replaced, it sounded better than ever. I wonder what happened to make it sound better?
I love your explanation. However as a former Tech that worked inspecting dissecting and testing individual component, all components are affected by voltage/ current and various inductance. In another job where I repaired radiation / scintillation devices on our most sensitive devices after repairing them they had to be ran for a week before they were considered stable for the complete final calibration. Because of their need to be Burnin for a week one particular unit drifted up much higher each day than the others had ever done and we realized because of that this the unit had come in hot and wasn't completely decontaminated, so burn in kept us from being over irradiated.
Why would burn in always be good? Why wouldn't it sound great out-of-the-box and then sound worse after burn in? Is it intentional design for the burn in process or not?
From my understanding, burn-in is entirely dependent on the dielectric bias. Which is why some cable manufacturers install a live wire with a battery, so that the component is never "off" and maintains the dielectric bias and thus is burned-in out of the box. The dielectric bias, once formed, can actually die off over time when there is no longer electricity running through it. For components, it is the dielectric bias as well. Thankfully, it isn't likely to lose the dielectric bias it creates because most modern amps and receivers have a stand by mode and is thus being fed an electric current at all times. Additionally, in modern day equipment we have IC chips that either produce power or provide DSP or DAC programing. When electricity runs through a chip, the electric current eats away a path in the silicon. The less resistance, the easier the transmission. This may also have something to do with burn-in, and it's literal. ;)
Cue the naysayers :( For me, its pretty simple : whether its my ears/brain or the electronics, SOMETHING changes between minute 1 and 24-48 hours of operation : I dont really care what it is. Making pronouncements about how something sounds straight out of the box is the mark of the newbie in this hobby - you haven't even given the component time to realign your internal biases re sound signatures before dashing to a keyboard (or worse, a camera) to announce that you love/loathe your new toy. Head-Fi is full of people who do this repeatedly and dont even get me started on the people who make judgements based on what they've heard at shows, arguably the single worst place to assess gear.
I have had my speakers for over ten years and I can tell you that they never sounded better then they do now. Some gear takes a while to break in, I am a firm believer just as you said, also it could be a mechanical, electronic and auditory combined adjustment that happens over time.
It does become tiresome to listen to the naysayers, especially after one has experienced the sound of a new item changing very noticeably over a second or 2 (after being in use for 24+ hours or like that...), and not just once, but repeatedly. That said, the setup you are listening to has everything to do with what/if and how much you are going to hear changes. Same goes for acoustics, the better and more managed the acoustics in the listening space the more you are going to be able to hear. Your advice is good, and takes discipline (waiting to form judgement) and sound/acoustics knowledge/skills in order to be able to calibrate the validity of what you are hearing at a show.
@@Andrewatnanz The DACs in 99.9% of smartphones (including flagships Samsung Galaxy, Apple IPhone, OnePlus, Huawei) is average at best 👍🏾 PC is usually even worse 😅 CD players it depends. Cheap CD players it's crap. Whereas high end players like Pioneer, Oppo, Cambridge it's very good 👌🏾
No shit, API actually puts there preamps, eqs, and compressors in an oven before it's sold. I think that's mainly for testing, but that's a helluva way to burn in. Haha!
So... when an audio component is designed is it designed and initially evaluated with virgin parts or burned-in parts? The point is - a consumer burned-in component should sound like the design predicted, right?
I don't own any high end components, but I have a simple system with a Hegel HD2 DAC, Onkyo A-5VL stereo amp and Klipsch RF-82 speakers. It really seems to me the system sounds better now, years after I bought it. I think it's mostly the speakers. They sound fuller and richer now than they used to. Especially in the midtones.
yeah, like DSLR cameras... that full frame sensor needs quite a large number of photons to fully wake it up... :}} first 1500 photos look washy and lack vividness..
I have a vinyl record that's recorded direct to disc that will break in caps and cables by the time the record is over.Its very dynamic. The CD of it doesn't work.You can hear new caps or cables change sound all over the map while they are breaking in with this record.
Makes you wonder how they TEST amplifiers. to test, you need to build it, but you need to wait a week before listening to it? the "burn in" could result in a change for the worse.
I bought some cheap white van speakers years ago and sounded like carp at first. then years later I hooked them up to a over powered amp to them and sounded like carp for about an hour then it was like a flood gate of beautiful sound came about and I still use them but on a smaller but powerful amp. speakers in question are ANV brand. 1st amp was a Kenwood Basic M2 and current amplifier is Kenwood Km-106 and sounds great for what they uhh it is.
Coming from military product background I say let Paul and his people burn the products in not the customer. Customer burn in is an insult. Especially at the prices of PS audio gear.
And stop with the capacitor thing. Again, at your prices you should buy the grade of caps that have similar MTBF's as all the other solid state parts. I like Paul's channel but the hi end audio paradigm is ridiculous when it comes to reliability/consistency concerns. Historically, only companies LIKE Yamaha have the wherewithal to guarantee 30+ years of trouble free functionality. Sounding good is the default for this industry.
Paul clearly explained why they don't do this. Besides I would rather do it myself, save money paying someone else to do it and probably learn something.
Just a few quick questions. For cable and equipment, if you just left the equipment with the new cable in, will this burn in the cable? Similarly say a power amp or cd transport like the new PS transport, do you have to have music playing to burn in equipment? I bought a second hand PS DS and waiting for the new PS transport to be released after beta testing, any idea the time frame?
So what is happening during this "burn in"? With the great length that designers and audiophiles alike go to, someone must of sat down and figured it out, at the silicon level. What is happening that equates to this burn in. Transformer iron isn't going to change. Copper in the coils, transformers, and traces isn't going to change. Is there something going on at the atomic level like the boron and phosphor share and takes electrons and holes better??? I would like to know as I don't buy thoughts or opinions from other humans because we are absolutely the worst thing to ever come to the scientific method. I need a study
I've burnt in my toaster for 4 years. Finally it's producing some quality toast.
Dustin Mulligan ha,ha,ha,that’s funny!!!
Post of year
That's good burn
🤣🤣🤣
I burned in my toaster and all I got was burnt toast.
I am suspicious of claims of audio nirvana, I don't spend time "burning in" components, but I will notice a tonal difference over time with some. If it was a matter of my "adjusting" to the unique sound, I would be noticing it with all, but I don't. Paul McGowan, I appreciate your honesty and willingness to tackle thorny topics,
Years ago I worked for a speaker manufacturer remanufacturing subwoofers mainly. I do know for a fact that there is a break in or burn-in time with speakers. It takes time for the soft components to loosen up and there is a drastic change in sound quality. I have proven it with checking the Theal Small parameters before and after. There are drastic changes on some parameters and not so much on others.
Yes. Let's focus on what can be measured.
Even my cheap Edifier R1000 needs burn in. It sounds grainy, muffled and has weird frequency response out of the box. After a week it sounds just fine.
How long does it generally take befors they sound as they should?
Andreas Landgren unfortunately there isn't some set standard time for break-in. It all depends on the materials being used. There are many different gauges of spiders which is the suspension for the speaker as well as cone and Surround materials vary from speaker to speaker. Typically it doesn't take too long. The most important thing is not to try to see how far you can push the driver when it's brand new give it a few hours of listening at moderate levels and then let it rip. I hope that helps you
Groovy Dude thx for the advice on the volume.
I have a set of headphones that did not sound as good as they did in the store. I put them on one day, about 3 months after using them every day. All of a sudden they sounded fantastic. You are right about having a piece of equipment sitting around and needs to burn in again. My vintage amp was like that. I was thinking maybe it needs to be recapped but after about 15 hours of use, it sounded great again. I really enjoy your videos. You have answered a lot of questions I had about audio. Thank you.
I just recently had another experience with "burn in" with some vintage speakers. I rewired my mids in series (each speaker has 2 mids. Sansui SP-2500) and replaced the three capacitors in the crossover. When I first played them they instantly sounded better than they did before the mods, but I just couldnt get them to sound exactly like I wanted even after fiddling with the amp and speaker placement for about two hours they just sounded a little dull and lacked fine detail. I tried again the next day, but they sounded the same, BUT after another 2 hours of listening I jacked the volume on one of my favorite songs and all of a sudden they sounded great! I went back and played all the songs from the previous day, and the smoothness and detail that I was missing was now there. This was not my imagination, they still sound good today. It was the new caps "burning in".
Lovely how human ears get used to sound really quickly, isn't it?
@@michielderomijn Yea, he just described brain burn in, not equipment burn in.
I think the comment Paul made about re-burn-in after a time is spot on. I use a Class A amp during half of the year and Class D amps during the mid-summer air conditioning time. After sitting on the shelf for months, they do need time to settle back in for a few days.
I recently sold a Marantz PM14 S1 SE amplifier (ex demo) that had barely been used to a customer. He complained it did not sound as good as his other amp (same model) that he had used every day for over 18 months and was worried it was faulty in some way. He kept running the amp and somewhere around the 2-3 week point the sound became identical to his other well used amp.
It is psychological. May be he gave some inputs or changed to some settings. If this is real then it could be easily verified. Just get a amp and run a song or many song and using a recorder record it's output. After 4 weeks of good use record the same and check the difference. Why can't anyone do this ? It's so simple to verify.
@@rajendrabareto8065 How this could be psychological? He had comparison with the same model he had.
@@adamjachymek5923 if there was a thing it could be easily compared using signal capture and instruments. There is no research papers on it and these claims are done mostly by users who does not understand the theory behind the circuits behind the sound systems.
The issue I have with the concept of burn in is that it's always described as improving the sound. I don't doubt that a piece of gear that goes through a burn in period changes in character a bit. But why is it always better? Are there examples of when it sounds worse? I never hear about those.
Exactly, and this very suspicious. I think people are mostly describing brain burn in and how they adjusted to the sound over time when they talk about their gear burning in.
I did wonder if that is at least part of what is happening.
I would expect small changes in early hours settle into a constant. Hours not days I would think. I could see this benefitting by running uninterupted to this point. And I never turn my amp off anyway! ❤
I'm glad you addressed after burn in storage. Some very highly respected caps will go right off the cliff again after a few months.
I used to set up burn in schedules for military equipment. When the equipment came out of production a full test sheet would be written, some of these were 8 pages long. The equipment would then go thought a 168 hour burn in, some were cycled on and off and the ambient was raised to 55 or 65 degrees C while it was powered. up. After the burn in the equipment had another test sheet written. The before and after test sheets were always different, they were both in spec but they were different.
With military gear it was to insure stability and reliability. You would weed out any infant mortality's and insure the components were not drifting. You cannot afford a failure in critical equipment on a ship, plane or the space shuttle, the equipment HAS to work. This testing is why that gear is so expensive, it involves a lot of labor and the record keeping is crazy..
So the answer is that burn in is real, it causes a change in the way equipment operates.
Well, this is the first time I've heard someone talk about burn-in and made it sound credible. It's a refreshing change from cable burn-in, demagnetization stories and other nonsense. As they say, consider the source! Someone actually testing equipment, according to known procedures, gives me more confidence there's merit to the burn-in theory. As opposed to stories from people who sell pucks and speaker-cable stands against "microphonics". Thank you.
dell, I have seen production test sheets, well, packages 20 and 25 pages long.
Gersberms, I am also one of those who believes cable burn-in is nonsense. One of my brothers was a Navy ET. When he had to replace a cable to a sonar transducer, he just replaced the cable, tested it, then went on to the next problem. Never worried about burn-in. Those cables were carrying signals from just above DC to 100 kHz or so.
Likewise, when I was in the radar business, when I needed to replace a cable from the baseband output of an IF amplifier to the input of an A/D converter (DC to about 2.5 MHz), I just installed and tested. Never worried about cable burn-in.
Did you burn in the test equipment as well ? :)
If I was reading it right, the previous post was from the person who had tested those cables you were replacing with, and they worked because they were within specification, based on that testing. Now, whether you believe in burn-in, that is another story. I choose not to argue with folks about cables, magnets, pucks, or isolation devices like tiptoes. They are not going to change my opinion, and I don't really care why you disagree. Not being rude, it is just a personal choice, and I see no point in evangelizing my opinion.And it is just a hobby. Lets have fun and enjoy the Music :)
Paul recommends you burn-in all of his amplifiers exactly 31 days. (only a joke Paul 😁)
Michael B. Haha that's a good one
Actually Paul's preconditioned the returns shall be with customers' proof of burn-in exactly by 30 days and a second. Otherwise no returns shall be entertained. JK
By fact, I dream to own ps audio equipment and never return it.... I am still smiling.... As it is a dreamed machine
Paul this is true, i have a Audio Research D450 class D and the dealer let me use this and he told me not to judge the sound right away because it would take 3-5 days for burn in and he told me to leave the amp plugged in. After the 4th day the amp sounded completely different and opened up and gave me both the power that i needed and the quality of sound. My dealer needed it for a show with Garth Powell of Audioquest. This amp was used with the ref 5se and Niagara 7000 and sounded amazing. The amp sounded almost tube like. The dealer left the amp on for 7 days. I borrowed the amp one more time after the show and bought it two weeks later and haven't looked back. Audio Research did a wonderful job with this amp, like I'm sure you did with the Stellar 700 series. My DS450 was horrible out of the box and made me want to plug my Vt100 MKIII back in, which I later traded in against the DS450.
Funny, the amplifier Paul refers is also a class D amplifier
Yes, my dealer told me that when he first got the amp in as a demo, he hated it for the first 5 days and he was going to send it back to Audio Research and they told him to leave it on for 5 more days because he would only listen to it for 30 minutes, get mad and turn it off. My dealer stated on the fifth day the amp started to sound pretty incredible. My dealer used the amp when they would hold events in different venues and two being at bars that had special rooms for live bands. That was the first time I heard the amp and I was floored. Unfortunately Audio Research, who redesigned their Class D and used a totally different type of power supply, is no longer doing class D. I have heard good reviews regarding PS Audio's Class D models. I needed the power without the cost of tube replacement, which was $1000.00 for the VT-100 MKIII.
Thanks, very interesting answers. I've always heard burn-in but never completely understood why.
If burn in is real, then burn in would make equipment sound worse as much as it sounds better. Why would equipment always "sound better" after burn in? That tells me there is a lot of inference in this burn in issue. As much ear burn in as equipment, as it always sounds better later.
I have found that burn in
does apply
to speakers without any doubt.
Example:
I just upgraded my 7.1 speaker setup.
After 60 days or so, my Andrew Jones C22 center speaker
began to exhibit a warmth & sparkle it did not produce when 1st installed.
2nd, my 2 Klipsch SF1 towers (1999 models) which I rebuilt, using original,
but new tweeters and new Visaton woofers
(original Klipsch woofers weren't available) to complete the refurbish.
Even though the woofers were a stock stand in from Parts Express?
The Klipsch towers began displaying a wide stereo image after 3 weeks
of use. At times it sounds like there are speakers on the side walls when there isn't any.
This was a "new" attribute to the towers after burn in.
Klipsch are known for a tight but focused sound due to their horns.
These are warmer now & cast a wider image than I expected.
So, I am a firm believer in the "Burn In" time when it comes to speakers.
~ peace
Yes speakers have a break in period much like a car engine but amps and cables do not "burn in" and that is a FACT!
Paul Kudos for daring to address this question on the internet!
So assuming that there is a change in the components over time during break in, why is it that the result is always positive where it sounds better?
Bump... any new insights on this? Ive asked a few industry bigwigs about this and nobody can give me a reasonable answer. Thanks
Bump.. any thoughts about this ?
Its when the parts reach their rated tolerances
tolerance rating of electronic components only determines how much their 'measured' values will possibly be different from their 'labeled' values. for example, in a 100 piece lot of 100 ohm resistor with 5% tolerance, each of them can have any value within the range of 100 ohm +- 5% which is between 95 and 105. there could be a 105 ohm resistor in the lot or a 95 ohm in the lot. tolerance rating is a 'what to expect' value, not a 'measurable' value of the component itself. and when a component's value in your equipment changes, there's a good chance your equipment will LITERALLY burn in.
Simple fact is, a capacitor is a component that actually has moving chemicals inside, any component that has moving parts needs a break in, but cables no way thats just BS
Agree with you here Paul, Many products I’ve owned over the last 4 decades sound better with some kind of break in period.
Can’t say why or how to measure it but for me it’s always been about what do your ears tell you. If you’re a person that goes by measurements, then by all
means go with that.
Thanks for taking time to answer the question. But burn in is definitely real. I having been using my Amp for a while now, tonally its not changed a huge deal but it just sounded flat and a bit lifeless, sometimes even broken. But after extended use its only now really starting to open up with more air around instruments and gaining depth and dimensionality. Dynamics is better and the music sounds more alive. The manufacturer recommends at least 600 hrs which sounds somewhat ridiculous but it does make a difference.
Din Phu ôup
I've been burning in my amps for 35 years, and they just get better. Time to re-cap.
I had a Polk Audio subwoofer where the caps finally bulged and died. I ordered new caps from an electric company that were apparently higher quality than what Polk had installed and the sound quality was deeper and louder. it hadn't sounded that good when it was new! Whereas caps may need to be burned in, apparently having better constructed caps make a difference as well.
@@falcon048 When I remember sound from many years before, I have to temper my opinion. What if my hearing has changed? What if loss of high frequencies makes low frequencies sound better?
@@BlankBrain Agreed. I actually use my wife because: A) She doesn't give a flip about sound quality. B) She has no bias or understanding whatsoever.
So, if she is capable of hearing a difference, then I know I am not crazy. ;)
falcon048 i have a question is the sony str-dh790 a good amp?
@@evatheboxer7417 I have two BiAmp TC-120s and a Sony TAN-5550 V-FET amp. The STR-DH790 7.1 channel amp is Amazon's choice for "surround sound receivers." It's probably fine for watching movies. It may fall short if you're looking for high fidelity audio that thrills. If you read the reviews on Amazon, you may be able to form an opinion.
Break in period is very real, especially with headphones, i nearly returned my sennheiser hd 4.20s headphones, however after a few hours leaving them on the table playing mid volume sine tones they now sound absolutely incredible, always use mono tones to break in speakers so both drivers are done accurately and in balance.
Yeah, just realised the same from recent review of Sennheiser headphone by Geeky Ranjit
@Çerastes Break in does exist, with any speaker with moving parts. just because YOU cant hear a difference doesnt mean others cant
Hello and thank you for all your informative videos. My Vincent SV 500 integrated hybrid amp at a three burn in was almost a night and day improvement. After 100 hours this integrated amp seems to have a lot more power than it's rated 50 Watts a channel.
Just want to say I appreciate what you do. It's always nice having a voice of experience around to help clear the smoke and the fog...and someone who knows the difference between the two. :)
I had never given Amplifier burn in a second thought in the past, as all my previous gear had been used stuff, but since buying a brand new amp and witnessing the change in sound over a couple of months, or maybe say, 100hrs of use, I can say catagoricly that burn in does take place and has altered the sound, I acctually boxed the amp back up initially to send back, as I didn't think it was that good, but a mix-up in collection led me to give it a second chance, and the amp won me over in a weekend and then after around 100 hrs or so I noticed it had gained an even fuller sound, subtle but noticeable, it's a strange thing because people think that it's just you getting used to the sound, but it's quite the opposite, as in you adjust to the initial sound and then it changes, then you get used to it again. My experience with a new amp has been a good one, as in the sound improved, hence I still have the amp and am happy so far.
Everyday that I wakeup it takes me 2 hours to burn in!
LOL 😂👍🏼👍🏼
Wait til you get 65, it's more of an all day thing.
Speakers and headphones can definitely change over time because of the moving parts involved. Things can loosen or tighten affecting the vibrations that are heard...that seems to make sense. But when we talk about electronics I have to lay the cause of any change on the brain. If you are old enough to remember the little transistor AM/FM radios we had in the 60's, you know they sounded pretty crappy, but after listening for awhile our brains could tune out the noise and enjoy the music. I think the same happens with today's audiophile equipment. You open the box, set it up, turn it on, and you hear everything that system is putting out, including the very low distortion, but eventually your brain learns to tune out the bad and hear the good. Just like the sense of sight adjusts to different bulb spectrums. In my workplace, after bulbs I had lived with for years were replaced by warmer ones, I swore I hated them and would never get used to them. Today they are second nature and seem just right.
Our senses are flexible and adaptive, and can learn to see, feel, taste, and smell more than is at first sensed. In the same way, your brain can learn to hear more in the sound of a system over time...more details, more nuances in the sound...so again they seem to get better over time.
This is my opinion, and if anyone ever proves, in a double blind test, using the same speakers, that he or she can hear the difference between new and "burned in" electronics, then I will eat the appropriate amount of crow.
Everything and anything needs run in or burn in
Totally agree with senses. I wear eye glasses and every time I get a new pair my eyes have to adjust and kinda annoying. But after a few days the glass are great after my eyes adjust.
I agree with speakers 🔊 to. New ones that are replacing the old always sound better but over time they sound normal to me and want something different.
Light 💡 bulbs yes. I installed a bunch of Edison buds that have kinda orange glow that I wasn’t sure about at first and now I don’t even notice.
BS
Be prepared to eat some crow.
@@parisstromatias637 no
I bought a new PS Audio S300 and wasn't satisfied with the midrange. It sounded recessed. I was told to let the input stage burn in for 300 hours. I let it sit not connected to speakers with a preamp feeding a signal to it for 2 weeks. I made a point to compare the midrange to my Bryston 3B-ST as a reference. When I hooked up the S300 two weeks later, the midrange was much more forward, prominent and filled in great. It ended up going from sounding recessed compared to the Bryston, to more forward. Therefore, I'll give credit to what Paul said.
When you design and build a brand new product and try it out and it doesn't sound that good, how do you know if it will ever sound good if you can't tell until a week. And you can't really test it while developing it? Isn't that a gamble?
It seems to be real from my experience. I had an old set of earbuds that was going bad in one ear, but I could still get it to work by holding the wire a certain way. Bought the same brand and model again and it sounded noticeably flatter and more muffled than the old pair. I thought I got a counterfeit but a week or so later I compared them again and they sounded almost identical.
It the two sets of earbuds were made at different times, it could be that the manufacturer changed some of the materials or design of them, also. I've bought guitars that were the same model, and the manufacturer had cheapened things up in the newer model (cheaper woods, most notably.)
Over the years, many manufacturers tend to cheapen what goes in to making their parts.
Infinity and their Kappa line is terribly guilty about this. Companies work to establish a brand and get people buying things and then they want to increase their profits and take advantage of the respect and trust people have for the brands.
Infinity, Sony, Polk, Harmon, JBL, Bose ... all horribly guilty of this and making so much CRAP these days. A lot of these companies just buy cheap Chinese crap and slap their brands on it these days (especially the ones just listed).
my akg k712 pro headphones sounded terrible right out of the box almost at a point that i wanted to return them, i can't come up with fancy words to describe sound but it had terribly harsh treble and cheap sound in general. After about 12 hours it improved a lot and it kept improving every day
Exactly! i found the same thing with my sennheiser hd 4.20s headphones, after a few hours they sound amazing, this is a science, most new products need a break in period (wearing in)
Paul I'm a firm believer in burn in. Don't know how it works but it works. Speakers especially need break in. It took 6 months to break in my current system. As a result it sounds so sweet.
I can see that speakers that have moving parts can change over time and we know that electrolytic capacitors can certainly change over time (over hundreds or thousands of hours) but asking me to believe that components such as semiconductors for example need burn in time would be asking too much, simply because they have a defined operating characteristic out of the wrapper. We could not design and build reliable mass produced electronic assemblies if components changed after a few tens of hours of use.
Any why would a burn in not result in worse sound? What's the rule that says it would always improve compared to new and not degrade as it burns in?
Just recapped my headphone amp. When I turned it on, it sounded slightly better, but not what I remember before the original caps started to go out. About 10 days of listening later, it started to sound excellent again.
Your brain got used to the new sound. Enjoy psychoacoustics.
Ok, so burn in is real, but do I need to endure 8-40 hours of white noise before I can start enjoying my speakers? I bought Adam Audio TV5 and they recommend doing that, but I don't see why I can't just listen to music straightaway and just wait for the burn in process to take place. Do I miss the chance of using my speakers to their full potential if I don't subject them to hours of white noise?
After all this burning in, I'm completely burned out.
The first time I built my valve guitar amp it sounded so nasty until a few days later.
Heard people say about burn in time, but really, you just get feel for the characteristics of the sound, and it makes you believe it's better than before.
I haven't seen a single evidence mentioned in the video that distinguishes "people burn in" from "equipment burn in" if there is any difference. There are lots of statements made though. another question: why the manufacturers don't do "burn in" professionally before shipping and leave it to amateur customers ? In fact, Sennhiser suggested in their website that their headphones are good as it is out of box, do not require "burn in". If there are audible diffenrences which can not be represented by measurements, it should be proved in the same way used in clinical trial in drug testing.
word!
seems like alot of enjoyment has been taking place at that workstation
The simple side of burning in equipment is this, the theory that if there is a weak component in a circuit it will most likely fail within the first 90 days of service. When I worked for Intel we burned every processor we built. Now I wasn't only building production processors, I was on the assembly side of Intel's R&D. I helped engineers work the bugs out of new products before they went to market and I helped develope new tooling to manufacture product on. Now for us the burn in process heated the processor up to the temperature it would see when running at full speed, and we passed data through it, making sure that the data wasn't corrupted. When developing a new product we burned them in to the equivelent of ten years use, in steps, measuring how fast the processor was at different intervals. The last two products I worked on had minimal fall out, less than 1%, guaranteeing at least 10 yrs of use by which time the processor would be so far outdated that most customers would want to by a newer computer anyway.
Audio is a bit different. The guys who built my speakers burned in the woofers long enough that their resonant frequency stabilized, then measured the Theil Small Parameters and built cabinets for them. When I bought mine with new drivers it took a few weeks of use for the resonant frequency to drop and the difference was amazing. The tweeters sounded less harsh and the woofers dropped in frequency to the point where they sound incredible today! They say capacitors take time to burn in as well, effecting the crossover network. So I would be prone to believe and look forward to the burn in process.
What a load of bull you were stress testing to figure out what the critical components in a chain mail link were and you equate that to 'burn-in' HA!
Why don't manufacturers burn in cables, hifi components and speakers? I used to make audio equipment and there was a part of the test where we left the units powered on overnight and checked them the next day. Hifi manufacrurers who sell such items that cost more than budget level equipment have a duty to do this I would say. It would cost them nothing to do! (apart from the electricity which is neglible) No manufacturer that I know of states a recomended burn in period - you would think they had listened to their equipment enough to have this worked out.
Paul is smoking something that is burning I think
I have a Sony AV receiver thats puts off a burnt plastic smell, happens when its on for about 4 hours at normal volume. I'm hoping it will go away. I returned my other receiver because of this. Anyone know what this might be? Should I wait it out this time?
That last comment is very interesting. I actually took some gear out that had sat around maybe 6, 7 years. I didn't really remember the sound from back then but I was definitely disappointed with the sound now. I figured either my taste had changed or maybe components had deteriorated. But it was the only system available for a while so I used it anyway. A couple of weeks later I found myself really enjoying it. I did remember how it sounded all those years ago, it sounded like this! So things that are left idle do seem to need to burn in again. Or maybe I got accustomed to it. That is always the doubt.
Then i would like to add a question . when you develop/prototype let
say an Amp and decide the sound quality, do you use "burnt in" components or burn them in as the development goes on?
Kudos!!! Great question, inquiring minds want to know.
Can you answer P.S Audio?
What about audio engineers fine tuning products and listening test before it's boxed, isn't that enough to say it will sound the same when in your home depending on setup and right speaker selection.
If buy a new equipment, hook it up to the ac, and it sounds like crap, it will always sound like crap.
In addition to what you've said, here, Paul, is the psychological aspects of "adjusting" to a particular sound (you mentioned this early in this post, but didn't address it much.) This adds an additional layer of complexity to the perception of burn in.
Yes, ideed you are correct.
I've personally had a pair of headphones improve with burn-in. Until that day I was, at best, skeptical. Assuming similar ideas of the mysterious blue smoke changing it's wavelength.
@Çerastes yes it does, depends on the cans you have, it can be very subtle, some notice it and some not. personally I had some units that had a noticeable change over time (200 hours+) and some that didn't
I'm a audio engineer I'll say that it's not really changing too much burn in does work but wear and tear also is a factor. Playing like pink noise for 10 to 72 hours could change some other drivers like bicellulose or crystal drivers but it makes them softer making them break easier so be careful in burn ins too much is not good for earphones or headphones.
The recommended burn in period is usually 1 day longer than the warranty period.
I can understand burn in from a speaker and stylus perspective since these have moving components. But not sure about electronic components, they should test the same new and as they age. If they drift or go out of spec then they need to be replaced. I would think they degrade over time and the amount depends on the load and the type of component it is. Burn in I would think is more QC. Yes I agree cables are another story. It’s really physics.
Paul O have watched several of your videos, and I really like your style of presentation. What I do find is when you get to discussion like burn in there is little to no data. Is it measurable? If it takes days to sound right, then it should be measurable. If caps take time to form, then that should be easily measurable. Lytic's especially the old lytics I can see. Also since lytics are typically used in the power supplies, and many typically in parallel, the effect of the caps forming should not be noticeable. The human ear is a wonderful creation, but and good scope is better. Plus you and I are about the same age, I know my hearing is not the same as when I was 20. So, hearing very subtle differences is very hard to believe, so help me out here give us some data. I have looked high and low and can't find anything.
PS A- when you compare, are you doing blind A/B/X testing?
shut up
I got some $13 earbuds from a gas station cause I needed some urgently. They sound pretty bad and usually in music the music blocks off people voices. Was wondering quickly if I should burn them in for how long.
The question is "what" you should burn them in.
I started my career in radio and audio as an Apprentice Radio Tradesman in the 1970s. I serviced and repaired radio/audio equipment that used vacuum tubes and transistors. Reel to reel tape decks, turntables, amplifiers, tuners etc. In the 80s we moved into the CDs about the same time the quality of HIFI equipment plummeted to cheap nasty plastic rubbish. I bailed out of that game and completed a digital electronics course and moved into computers around 1988. I my time I never heard of 'burn in'. And I hear silly things these days like 'point to point wiring' produces better sound and 'monster cable' is the way to go. And sales people who claim to be 'HIFI' experts but have no idea what RMS means. I guess it's just a sign of the times.
Isn't it wierd how audio gear only gets better with burn in? Statistically this is impossible to have such a huge percentage of audio gear sounding better with burn in than audio gear sounding worse with burn in. The science end of this mostly points to human sensory acclimation. Your just getting more familiar with something the langer you have it. The small percentages in audible difference these elecrical components cause after warm up or burn in are very unlikely to heard. Unless maybe you have very good gearing and a very good highly resolving audio system, which 99% of people dont have.
It's my experience as well about burning in. Good advice again. Onno Nugteren photographer and Filmmaker.
How do you design and test products, then? Each modification takes a month?
How does one actually determine if their equipment is "high end?"
Ask marketing
I read an article on speaker burn in. the same person got hold of a new boxed same speakers a year later and found there was a big different in the sound so speakers do change ..
Same with my Sennheiser hd 700. Thank you for this post. The naysayers can now shut up.
just caught myself head nodding to the closing music. i really enjoy the videos. thanks Paul
i had my Naim system serviced..everything except the CD player..power supplies, pre and mono power amps..for the first week i noticed loss of bass and a 'flat' sound..not bad, just different...over time they improved and seemed to lose the bright, forward sound and the bass settled down..Some bass is boomy but my room needs treatment..
A month later the sound has a 3 dimensional quality and a smooth purity to it..The bass has tightened and only one recording has subsonic booming...I'm certain that some of this is due to my ears getting used to the higher levels of treble after the service, but i also think that the sound did genuinely improve...
However, i DO think that a LOT of audiophile stuff is nonsense..Burn in is part placebo, but there is an element of truth in it..I do wonder however, if a component 'burns in' after say, 80 hours, how does it remain stable and not begin to degenerate for the next 80 hours??
Paul is right as electrical burn-in is a very real process. But without discerning ears it really doesn't matter as most nothing does. But for those with any kind of discerning ear, burn-in is actually quite predicable. For example. If one were to replace all their AC plugs and IEC inlets and AC outlets at the same time with superior aftermarket (preferrably cryo-treated) parts and then play music (loud or soft) round the clock, you should notice the burn-in jump or improvement right around the 53 hour mark + -1 hour. Same time frame for fuses, AC and IEC inlets, and other simple electrical parts.
But if one lacks discerning ears and/or their system already sounds tremendously unmusical, they probably will not hear any difference. The bigger and/or more complex electrical objects, i.e. cables or components the longer the burn-in process will take to reach full burn-in status.
Wow, thanks Paul. I find this of particular interest right now, because I've just restored a Sansui 6060 vintage receiver, including a recap and it sounds really bright and harsh, with lots of sibilance. Really fatiguing. Before the recap it sounded much nicer. Vintage Sansui receivers are known to sound lovely and sweet, so I was starting to wonder if I'd done something wrong, even it's working perfectly. I guess I'll give it some time and see if it improves any.
are the new caps in the signal path or are they just power supply caps ?
@@gino3286 it was a near full recap, including the signal path. It's been in daily use ever since and has improved, but I'm intending to switch out the film caps that I replaced a few of the small value electrolytics with, especially in the pre-amp/ tone board, as research has suggested that could be the cause. There was also a massive jump in volume after re-capping the pre-amp board too. I did also replace the fuse resistor at the same time though as that was massively out of spec. It's possible that could account for the volume jump too. Unfortunately life has been a little too busy to work on it recently and I've had difficulty finding a known legit source of quality low esr small value caps. The UK is terrible for buying electronics components unfortunately.
@@juddery i am not an expert but if you have used decent quality caps from voltage rails to ground it should be ok
Caps in the signal path may impact the sound more You will find recommended
parts in the Web if you search
This is the reason why designers try to keep them to a minimum
However very old caps should be replaced always i understand
Good luck and best regards gino
@@gino3286 yeah, that's what I thought. I used all good quality components, including Wima film caps to replace a few low value 0.47uf and 1uf 50v electrolytics, however, it was after rebuilding the pre-amp/ tone board that everything got a little harsh. A few people have suggested that using film caps in that circuit instead of polarised electrolytics, may be the cause of the issue, due to affecting the intended design of the circuit. I've just ordered some Nichicon FG caps to swap with the Wima film caps snd see if it makes any difference. I'm in the middle of packing to move house right now though, so fitting them will have to wait until after I've moved.
@@juddery i see To be honest i have to say that I don't use tone controls at all and i listen only to digital sources
I have done some basic DIY and I have the impression that passive parts can have a sound not only caps but also resistors
if you like the sound bypassing tone controls that is a very good thing
At least you have spotted the critical circuit I like minimalism a lot
But parts selection after the design and before the construction is a key phase
I wish you all the best Bye gino
Very good you tell the absolute true!!!!
Paul is a LIAR!
I've burnt in my beef for a week. Finally it's tasting really good.
I have just bought some Sound Magic in ear earphones on the strength of rave reviews (you dont get to test those in the shop) and on getting them home was pretty disappointed. Played them at max level for 24hrs and they are transformed. That could be the mechanical parts bedding in like the brakes on your car. I have never heard such a difference on purely electronic components burning in.
I had a ribbon tweeter that took weeks before it started sounding good. It sounded very harsh and metallic at first. After a while it sounded just fine.
Hi, is burn in relitive to
time/ temperature, frequency or perhaps voltage, also how does a product test out at the manufacturing stage if components and any cabling aren't yet burnt in ?
I second the notion that if they are using a reference component that has been operating for a while, it has stabilized and whatever they are using to fine tune the product will work under the assumption that the new manufactured copy would also have to stabilize in order to match the final tuned spec.
In my opinion, especially ‚wet‘ = electrolytic caps need a long long long time to format. With good Hi-Fi playback, it needs at least 0,5 year up to 2 years for formatting long life electrolytic caps (105+ Celsius). Then you have about 10-15 years good plateau quality, depending on how big the capacitors are. After this time, especially small electrolytic caps begin to loose quality. Huge, high quality power supply caps, which are not leaking, can stay in an amp for at least 30 years. On the other hand, today’s electrolytic caps are sometimes far higher quality (ripple current, low impedance..) than 20-40 years ago. Depends...
Can only say, I've had two Ortofon phono cartridges, a Red and a Blue. Maybe not high end but nice nonetheless. They both sounded like crap for the first half hour of use and then began to settle in. After a few weeks use they sounded great!
Can you say blue is better?
Thanks Paul for removing the snake oil talk of this topic I do believe in I've heard it for a fact and what you confirming this only makes me believe it is true now thank you so much once again I love when you explain stuff
I hear that this guy is an engineer, so he can measure and calculate things. Why doesn't he??
If he wants to be taken seriously by serious people, he should show the difference in measurements due to "burn in" or not talk about this.
He's a salesman...not an engineer. What degree or cert does he have?
I hated my rockerverb mkiii till I almost blew it up powering it on without a cab attached. It blew a fuse once replaced, it sounded better than ever. I wonder what happened to make it sound better?
I love your explanation. However as a former Tech that worked inspecting dissecting and testing individual component, all components are affected by voltage/ current and various inductance. In another job where I repaired radiation / scintillation devices on our most sensitive devices after repairing them they had to be ran for a week before they were considered stable for the complete final calibration. Because of their need to be Burnin for a week one particular unit drifted up much higher each day than the others had ever done and we realized because of that this the unit had come in hot and wasn't completely decontaminated, so burn in kept us from being over irradiated.
That's a really interesting story. I'm glad you didn't get over irradiated.
Why would burn in always be good? Why wouldn't it sound great out-of-the-box and then sound worse after burn in? Is it intentional design for the burn in process or not?
Kinda like new boots, they aren't usually awesome out of the box . after some time they break in
From my understanding, burn-in is entirely dependent on the dielectric bias. Which is why some cable manufacturers install a live wire with a battery, so that the component is never "off" and maintains the dielectric bias and thus is burned-in out of the box. The dielectric bias, once formed, can actually die off over time when there is no longer electricity running through it. For components, it is the dielectric bias as well. Thankfully, it isn't likely to lose the dielectric bias it creates because most modern amps and receivers have a stand by mode and is thus being fed an electric current at all times. Additionally, in modern day equipment we have IC chips that either produce power or provide DSP or DAC programing. When electricity runs through a chip, the electric current eats away a path in the silicon. The less resistance, the easier the transmission. This may also have something to do with burn-in, and it's literal. ;)
It's been a while since I've read such nonsense. Thank you for the laughter you brought.
Cue the naysayers :(
For me, its pretty simple : whether its my ears/brain or the electronics, SOMETHING changes between minute 1 and 24-48 hours of operation : I dont really care what it is. Making pronouncements about how something sounds straight out of the box is the mark of the newbie in this hobby - you haven't even given the component time to realign your internal biases re sound signatures before dashing to a keyboard (or worse, a camera) to announce that you love/loathe your new toy. Head-Fi is full of people who do this repeatedly and dont even get me started on the people who make judgements based on what they've heard at shows, arguably the single worst place to assess gear.
I have had my speakers for over ten years and I can tell you that they never sounded better then they do now. Some gear takes a while to break in, I am a firm believer just as you said, also it could be a mechanical, electronic and auditory combined adjustment that happens over time.
It does become tiresome to listen to the naysayers, especially after one has experienced the sound of a new item changing very noticeably over a second or 2 (after being in use for 24+ hours or like that...), and not just once, but repeatedly. That said, the setup you are listening to has everything to do with what/if and how much you are going to hear changes. Same goes for acoustics, the better and more managed the acoustics in the listening space the more you are going to be able to hear.
Your advice is good, and takes discipline (waiting to form judgement) and sound/acoustics knowledge/skills in order to be able to calibrate the validity of what you are hearing at a show.
This is the new audiophile of the internet age. All about measurements and graphs, completely missing the point (aka THE MUSIC).
moving parts can change, in that case you can leave the room - cables don't change - period
Regarding what you say at 1:44 ... how do you carry out those test? Single blind, double blind, or other?
Would sound distortion on stereo speakers be a burn in problem? Specifically taking about the new Pixel 3xl speakers.
Sometimes I like the insight here but I always factor in the fact that they sell 6 thousand dollar DACs.
the DAC in my phone, CD player and PC is good enough for me.... and those are free ! (the DAC is included)
@@Andrewatnanz The DACs in 99.9% of smartphones (including flagships Samsung Galaxy, Apple IPhone, OnePlus, Huawei) is average at best 👍🏾
PC is usually even worse 😅 CD players it depends. Cheap CD players it's crap. Whereas high end players like Pioneer, Oppo, Cambridge it's very good 👌🏾
@@C--A thanks for the reply. I upgraded my PC soundcard to a high end Sound Blaster, it made a huge difference.
No shit, API actually puts there preamps, eqs, and compressors in an oven before it's sold. I think that's mainly for testing, but that's a helluva way to burn in. Haha!
So... when an audio component is designed is it designed and initially evaluated with virgin parts or burned-in parts? The point is - a consumer burned-in component should sound like the design predicted, right?
I don't own any high end components, but I have a simple system with a Hegel HD2 DAC, Onkyo A-5VL stereo amp and Klipsch RF-82 speakers. It really seems to me the system sounds better now, years after I bought it. I think it's mostly the speakers. They sound fuller and richer now than they used to. Especially in the midtones.
Burn-in has ALWAYS been a reality with electronics. 🔥
yeah, like DSLR cameras... that full frame sensor needs quite a large number of photons to fully wake it up... :}} first 1500 photos look washy and lack vividness..
J.T. Cooper i used to smell my porno mags
Gullible much? Speakers have a break in period much like a car engine but amps and cables do not "burn in" and that is a FACT!
@@thegoat164 Fact. Wrong much?
@@j.t.cooper2963
You're one of those flat earthers just like this guy who denies facts.
ua-cam.com/video/l5klU1RRO3U/v-deo.html
Nice! I don't need to upgrade, just burn in the equipment I have a little more 😁😉
No you can't do that, you have to buy our new model of BS that 15% improvement through magical BS
What changes due to the 'burn-in'?
I have a vinyl record that's recorded direct to disc that will break in caps and cables by the time the record is over.Its very dynamic. The CD of it doesn't work.You can hear new caps or cables change sound all over the map while they are breaking in with this record.
Makes you wonder how they TEST amplifiers. to test, you need to build it, but you need to wait a week before listening to it? the "burn in" could result in a change for the worse.
I bought some cheap white van speakers years ago and sounded like carp at first. then years later I hooked them up to a over powered amp to them and sounded like carp for about an hour then it was like a flood gate of beautiful sound came about and I still use them but on a smaller but powerful amp. speakers in question are ANV brand. 1st amp was a Kenwood Basic M2 and current amplifier is Kenwood Km-106 and sounds great for what they uhh it is.
Coming from military product background I say let Paul and his people burn the products in not the customer. Customer burn in is an insult. Especially at the prices of PS audio gear.
And stop with the capacitor thing. Again, at your prices you should buy the grade of caps that have similar MTBF's as all the other solid state parts. I like Paul's channel but the hi end audio paradigm is ridiculous when it comes to reliability/consistency concerns. Historically, only companies LIKE Yamaha have the wherewithal to guarantee 30+ years of trouble free functionality. Sounding good is the default for this industry.
nobody ever thinks about burning in a calibrated measuring mic. nobody. :} or an oscilloscope. :}
Paul clearly explained why they don't do this.
Besides I would rather do it myself, save money paying someone else to do it and probably learn something.
Just bought new headphones a few days ago. Now I can do the burn in while listening to Paul.
i.imgur.com/I1qUAbN.png
When I got started into this category as a hobby the only “burn in” I dealt with was in my bank account…
I have a pair of M1200's. These take some time to burn-in for sure. Would be nice to see some measurements to back this up though.
Thanks Paul: Great explanation!
Just a few quick questions. For cable and equipment, if you just left the equipment with the new cable in, will this burn in the cable? Similarly say a power amp or cd transport like the new PS transport, do you have to have music playing to burn in equipment? I bought a second hand PS DS and waiting for the new PS transport to be released after beta testing, any idea the time frame?
So what is happening during this "burn in"? With the great length that designers and audiophiles alike go to, someone must of sat down and figured it out, at the silicon level. What is happening that equates to this burn in. Transformer iron isn't going to change. Copper in the coils, transformers, and traces isn't going to change. Is there something going on at the atomic level like the boron and phosphor share and takes electrons and holes better??? I would like to know as I don't buy thoughts or opinions from other humans because we are absolutely the worst thing to ever come to the scientific method. I need a study
Heat. Expansion and contraction. Capacitors getting charged up and discharged. Power transistors getting heated up nicely.
Wouldn't this be equal to the ear getting used to the sound of the product?