Well.. To be fair, it does slow a lot of us down, and that's the reason some folks insist on calling it a disability as well. Tough subject. Language triggers people emotionally.
The analogy that sticks with me the most is the comparison between "ice cream with strawberries" and "strawberry ice cream." If you have ice cream with strawberries, the strawberries can be picked off; albeit with a little bit of strawberry juice remaining. If you have strawberry ice cream, the strawberries are a key ingredient to the ice cream that are blended in, and they can't be removed. Likewise with autism; a "person with autism" mentality implies that the autism can be "picked off" and disposed of, even if a little bit of autism juice is left behind, but that's barely noticeable if you do a thorough enough job of de-strawberrying the ice cream, or, sorry, performing ABA. An "autistic person" mentality implies that the autism is part of who the person is, and it can't (and shouldn't) be removed. I agree with the latter perspective, because some of the greatest minds in history have been autistic, or thought to be autistic--Stephen Sondheim, for example. He was thought to be autistic, and he wrote some of the most creative musicals that the world will ever see and hear.
It's like they think they get to decide what's part of us instead of us doing that, Autism is a central part of my personhood . It's as bad as calling me a person with gay instead of a lesbian.
It’s as though it took that person SO LONG to accept/get used to saying “with autism” that they refuse to acknowledge what it actually means to adapt to language preferences. Somehow the training was given more importance than the message of the training. Thank you for sharing your voice on the matter 💕
Rude as this person is for not taking it in the moment, I do kind of get the issue with adapting language. I grew up in an area that was pretty socially liberal so I there were a lot of trainings in my school led by the school/hired professionals and also many led by students about various nomenclature (primarily lgbtq+ but also sometimes disability). Everyone wanted different things and the standards changed constantly. Once when I was trying to politely refer to the developmentally delayed (ironically not knowing that I belonged to that group) and I just couldn't remember what the word was because it changed so often. I chose the most recent one I could remember and was chastised for it. It was so frustrating that even genuine effort wasn't good enough, and it made me want to be rude and just use the words people hated the most because they were asking more from me than I was able to give even when I truly tried. If there hadn't been such grave social consequences in my area, I probably would've just chosen the oldest term I could think of that wasn't considered a slur and dug in my heels just like this lady. I'm grateful to be out of that mindset now, but it's still true that I don't know the "current polite word" for every group because it's too difficult to remember and keep up with them all. Online I can just look up the answer (assuming I can find a decent source...) but in real life conversation if I can't remember or if nobody has told me the latest changes then I'm just out of luck. I'm so grateful to not live in that area any more but I think that people there are probably still being pushed too hard, causing them to be like this lady.
This reminds me of that teacher who calls a kid by the wrong name for the first half of the year and them finally realizes that isn't the kids actual name but insists it is too difficult to change so that kid will just have to respond to the wrong name for the rest of the school year.
@@kinseylise8595"everyone was tes different things and the standards changed constantly" YES!! Agree with everything you have said. We work so hard to remember that people in groups are not a monolith....yet many members of any given group want the public to know how to respectfully refer to them....and surprise, the group isnt a Monolith, so what many want, others don't....or the general standards changes completely in five years as young people come of an Ge to make their voices heard....or people who work in a field related to a specific group, but are NOT actually the group, sometimes have firm, loud opinions on terms that even the people they serve don't want, but as professionals they may have a lot of visibility and authority. Worse still, terms will circulate the MOST rapidly for groups that experience exceptionally high stigma or prejudice, because the new respectful terms simply become slurs. "Colored" for example, and "Negro" were almost as bad as the N word by the 90s/early 2000s But the fact that you have things like the National Association of Colored People, The Negro College fund, and the use of both terms in the speeches of MLK jr shows that just a few decades before, those were preferred, respectful terms. Or the way "R*tarded" was once a respectful medical term meaning a child had a condition that made them develop more slowly on some level, and it replaced terms like "Moron" and "Idiot" that were also once medical terms categorizing degree of disability, and had become broadly used insults.....and they're all equally offensive things to call someone with a Developmental or intellectual condition now. The 80s and 90s saw the introduction, of "Special Education"......shortened on doors and paperwork to Sp.Ed., which quickly became its own terrible slur 😔 We can keep on changing terms, but when the stigma and prejudice and hate continue, the new terms are soon tainted and just have to be discarded, too. And when people aren't monoliths, a prescribed formula of correct terms will never, ever make every single person in the group feel heard or respected.... If we can all just give each other the gift of kindness, patience, respect and grace? I think that's about the best we can do....
@@melissasaint3283 Agreed! It also frustrates me that people sometimes put the politeness of the name over helping people. Recently someone was arguing with me that removing Aspergers as a diagnosis was good because the name came from a Nazi. That's all well and good in general but where and when I was a small child, women couldn't get Autism diagnoses, but they COULD get Aspergers diagnoses. Aspergers was taken away but doctors weren't convinced that women could have autism. Girls my age were the very last ones to get Aspergers diagnoses and my area happened to lose the diagnosis late. Girls from then until now (a good 20 years later) didn't get any kind of diagnosis because Aspergers didn't exist and Autism "was a boy disease". I can appreciate the desire to consolidate similar conditions and to remove unpleasant wording, but I cannot believe that someone tried to argue that it was better for 20 years of autistic women to get no diagnosis and no support just so they wouldn't be referred to as a word with bad origins. A childhood friend had more severe autism than me so she managed to get an Aspergers diagnosis, and thank goodness it was still available! She REALLY needed those supports and managed to get into a school that went her speed and properly taught socializing. Now she's in college and has friends and passions, losing none of the spirit she has as a child. If she had been forced into the regular high school I went to, she'd have failed math and they would have buried her amazing artistic gifts under remedial homework and "we can't make an exception, you just aren't trying hard enough". It's criminal that autistic women born after her had to be crushed like that just because the word "Aspergers" had an unfortuante origin. I think sometimes people get so caught up in what to call things that they forget about the bigger picture.
Even if she adopted the language preferred by the autistic community, I'm not sure this person can think beyond trying to cast the perfect Hogwarts spell instead of responding and caring about real people.
Exactly!! The language choice is not a huge deal. People with imperfect understanding of terminology can still be wonderful and helpful. But people who refuse to absorb new information are rarely the helpful type.
@@Kaelynnism We can call it "new information", but it's not factual information that "People having the diagnosis of Autism prefer identity first language" when even a small percentage of people having the diagnosis, disagree with the majority of the "community" and prefer person first language. I'm not stubborn or ignorant, but I don't like people telling me how to identify. I chose how to identify, and I'm choosing to stick with it because I am a person with Autism.
@@dylannoalan615as a former support worker, I guess the most important thing (for us) is that we get reminded that the best way to determine how someone prefers to be referred to is to actually ask them, rather than rely on a one-size-fits-some approach. It's depressing how long its taken to get to that stage, though.
Yes they absolutely can. They’re counting on you thinking that they’re incompetent, they’re anything but. They KNOW, they just CHOSE not to 🤷🏻♀️ She wasn’t Psychotic, she was aware.
@@peterclarke7006 it’s actually really nice to have somebody ask. My therapist asked if I preferred “autistic person” or “person with autism” during our first session, and it felt nice. It was a good way of showing that she cared about MY opinions and what *I* wanted. :)
Former RBT here -- I can attest that this language was taught to me during my early trainings. I never quite understood it. It seemed to me like the purpose was to detach the word autism from the individual, as though it were a disease that could be cured with the right medicine (or conditioning, if we're being honest). My old boss had this whole thing about how her job as a BCBA was to help kids "reach their full potential", when in reality, the intention was clearly to make kids act like neurotypicals. From how they dressed themselves, went to the bathroom, brushed their teeth, ate food, colored. Everything had to be "natural". I'm sorry for having contributed to such an awful field of science. Thank You for making videos like these, Kaelynn. As someone diagnosed with ADHD a child, C-PTSD as an adult with symptoms that may land me somewhere on the spectrum, I genuinely want to be an advocate. Please keep making content and healing the division.
Since you referred to ABA as "an awful field of science" (I only disagree with you on the "science" part), I assume you don't know that Kaelynn has worked as an RBT for several years and convinced herself she can reform the profession. In a perfect world, she would come to the conclusion that you did and walk away from an ableist and abusive industry that is only using her as a token, but I wouldn't hold my breath. BTW, out of curiosity, how did you come across this video? Was it just recommended to you, or do you consider yourself a fan of Kaelynn's? I see a lot of people comment on her videos who seem to be completely unaware she works in ABA (something she tries to downplay because she knows it will turn most Autistic viewers off, but by no means tries to keep secret).
@@GhostIntoTheFog I did not know for certain that Kaelynn has worked as an RBT. I assumed she had some experience in the position based on other content I've seen of hers. To your question, it's a bit of both. I would consider myself a 'casual fan'. Kaelynn's content was coming up under recommended videos for a while, so I would tune in to some of the Reels (like this one), short-form videos, and pieces of 'Love on the Spectrum'. I will say that, though my choice of words was sharp and a show of appeal to my own ignorance, I don't believe that certain aspects of ABA isn't beneficial. Still, I think it is used to measure and quantify acceptable behaviors that I view as constantly changing. In my experience--not saying this is true, just from what I've seen first-hand--behavioral scientists make some kind of breakthrough, the data that follows is used to advocate a cause outside of it, things go awry for leaders of said cause after a while, then it's back to the drawing board until another breakthrough happens. When it comes to ABA, my question is, if one of the goals in ABA is to re-shape behavior so that it matches other more commonly accepted behaviors, can commonly acceptable behavior, then, be clearly defined? Until then, is the goal to create the illusion of positive change until others become more tolerant? Both? Neither? There's a better question out there than I could think of, I'm sure, but this is what drove me away from ABA. In my view, if the goal were to data track and analyze personal growth, it's a beautiful tool for accounting patterns in behavior that may be reductive to one's learning experience. But it wasn't. The electro shock treatment was replaced with "cool or not cool" strategies (peer pressure). When that didn't work, it became "planned ignoring" and "denied access to desired reinforcement" (scarcity). Humans are really good at finding subtler ways of abusing each other and calling it teaching. But, of course, that's just where I am with it today. I am open to adopting new ideas, enhancing my perspective, and developing a more flexible point of view, but I am, admittedly, scared of change, and I think a lot of people are. Change appears to be more frightening than growth, but that could be part of an underlying issue. Idk. That's where I'll leave it. Thank You for informing me about Kaelynn's RBT background, and for your follow up questions.
Imo, "reaching their full potential" should always be about helping autistic kids learn and develop skills with and from their autistic traits, as these traits will never go away. They need to learn to live with them and even embrace these traits, use them to their advantage and help them find ways to make life a little easier. It's such a shame that people still think that the neurotypical way is somehow more "natural", even though... both are. These are just two different natures, but they are both equally natural. People shouldn't force kids to grow into the neurotypical environment and "blend in", but rather they should make the neurotypical environment more diverse and welcoming to the neurodivergent people. That's such a plain and simple concept, yet people still think that forcing someone to change is better and easier than simply being more accepting and accommodating... With that being said, you couldn't have known how bad it was until you've experienced it firsthand, there's nothing to apologize for! However, I do believe things can still be changed around if this field of science falls in the right hands. Preferably in the hands of autistic people themselves
Yeah you nailed it. Saying "with autism" makes it sound like an illness, something that we "got". Like, we say people HAVE cancer, AIDS, COVID, etc. But having autism? No. We ARE autistic, and it's so different, it's our whole being.
At least this experience is a really nice example of the appeal to tradition fallacy, a logical fallacy where a claim is rejected based on how it affects what has been accepted as correct for a long time rather than logical reasoning. "That's the way it's always been"
Exactly. I see this wayyy too much especially in the topics I advocate for. "Well it always worked before, why change now?" even when I provide them with proof of why it would do more good to change. It's not truly about preserving what's good, it's about being stubborn and staying in your comfort zone. It's like only keeping your old shoes because they still protect your feet even if a new pair would look much better, feel better, smell better, and not need regular glue changing... all because you just don't feel like doing anything else. I like to jokingly call that "Old people syndrome".
Nifty parallel: As a homeless person, a lot of my peers resent the "no, it's 'unhoused person' or 'person experiencing homelessness'" language trend, because it carries "things wealthy patronizing performative people say" vibes. I've often heard people say things like "suburban white moms are too busy policing language to actually help us". This is VERY individual; there are diverse and complex subcultures/intersections within the homeless community. Many people do NOT want to identify with homelessness as anything more than a temporary experience, and that's important for their self-perception as someone who will not continue experiencing it. Some of us, however, feel connected to our community and value its shaping of our identities. I probably won't always be unhoused (I do use "unhoused population" as a broad neutral term when speaking in the context of public health and our needs at scale) but I will always be part of the homeless community, just like someone is still part of their ethnic community if they relocate away from their peers in it. Just food for thought! I think the subject of identity/what we define as our identity is really interesting.
Thanks for sharing your experience and adding to the conversation! It makes sense other communities would have similar thoughts on what they’re called, with a variety of preferences. Also, Gosh that “Suburban white moms are too busy policing language to actually help us”, I felt that in my *Soul*. I personally have been really lucky to not be part of the homeless community, but I feel like a lot of groups of people can understand that phrase. Those “supporters” talk and talk, but rarely donate money or time to help out those groups they’re talking about.
This is such an interesting parallel. I also feel like "person with autism" separates me from my community. Unfortunate that so many sensitivity efforts make us feel lesser-than. Like when "differently abled" was happening, and made Disabled feel like a dirty word. Or "African American" completely disregarding the black population in the USA that are not African. These band-aids designed to make it more comfortable for people who don't fit the description, so they can ignore major issues easier.
@@Congiary Well, I’m autistic and don’t want to be part of “the community”. I’m just me, not part of any community. I don’t like the word “disabled” either. I have extra abilities bc of autism too. I guess we should just simply not call people something they hate…
@@yYSilverFoxYy I'm glad you're differently abled. However I just can't do something. There's no different way I can do them, I just can't do them. So disabled in the right term, not differently abled.
I've fought with so many abled people on what I SHOULD be called, it's so infuriating (so many hearing people insist on calling me "hearing impaired" to my face, for example, when I've made it painfully clear that I prefer hard of hearing)
If people are arguing with you about the appropriate term for you, then that's a problem. Or if this is people who are particularly close to you, either as friend/family/professionla, then that is also a problem. If either of the above apply, then disregard the rest of my comment. But for anyone a bit further out in your circles, it's likely just a memory thing. They're going to use the term that either they're most familiar with or have been explicitly taught is most respectful. Once they've learned one term, it's a lot of cognitive work to learn another one, particularly if they're now being asked to use both terms and remember what applies to who. Doesn't make it any less frustrating for you, but the more specialized language we ask people to use for us--even if there's very good justification for it--the less likely it will be used by any but our nearest and dearest.
It's like they all view us as children to boss around all because they have abilities we don't, so somehow THEY have a say in how we exist. I hate superiority complexes so much that it makes me want to scream. We're ADULTS, not your own children seeking guidance from you.
Ergh. That gave me flashbacks to when I used to be a support worker for autistic adults and I'd go on training sessions with some of my more... entrenched colleagues. It's amazing how much offence people can manage to take around them just being politely informed that they might have to change how the address someone. What's even more amazing is that some of them had been there so long that they probably got offended when asked to refer to the people they support as "people with autism" rather than whatever horribly insensitive name they used to get told they had to call them. 😂
Plot twist: the individual is autistic and is struggling to accept that the previous information she was told was incorrect. Probably not but from the way they were arguing, it sounds a lot like me when I get two pieces of conflicting information and can’t manage it mentally
Why is it so difficult for a person to hear someone else say, "I prefer ___" and just accept it? Sure somthing might have been ingrained into your natural way of speaking, but is it really so difficult to just try? 90% of the time it won't matter, but on the comparably rare time when around that one person, putting in the effort even if you make a mistake, shows you are trying and that they are heard.
Right? Like even if that's something *you* wouldn't enjoy, you should still respect people's right to determine what descriptions *they* enjoy for themselves. Like as a queer person who supports other queer people, I do find it a bit mentally uncomfortable to use "it/its" pronouns for someone or refer to them as "tr*nny" or "f*g", because those terms would feel dehumanizing if used on me. But I get over my hangups because they're not being used on me, they're being used for someone whose wishes I'm respecting by doing so.
I can understand some initial confusion at the identity first vs person first language. Ten years ago i was trained to use person first language ie "person with ADHD, person with autism". However, the autistic community has made it clear they prefer identity first -- "autistic person." It's not that hard to adjust to once explained, and we should obviously follow the preferences of the community we are talking about. You were gracious to her in explaining this difference. Nevertheless she persisted lol.
Exactly. I still can't wrap my head around why people would be so averse to being corrected besides if they were ND themselves and struggle with RSD, struggles in change, emotional dysregulation, trauma, etc OR if they were just following a common NT complex of misreading and translating simple gestures as insulting/doubting their capabilities. Psychology and building empathy is one of my special interests, I'd really like to dive further into why people act this way.
I got a formal Autism diagnosis only two weeks ago... First off, thank you Kaelynn. ❤ It's when I found you on UA-cam that I finally got the courage to book the appointment. Seriously, you are one fantastic human being! I have lived 28 years of constantly being the odd one out in the world and never understanding why. Pretty much since high school I'd end up going down the Google rabbit hole every few months trying to figure out why I am the way I am. A few years ago, actually just before 2020 happened, I started suspecting it might be Autism, then 2020 hit and every aspect of my life has been on overdrive since...including my mental health issues. I finally got myself a family doctor in late 2020, took me several months to get comfortable enough to open up about my mental health struggles. I started addressing my anxiety then I got an ADHD diagnosis and medication a year after that then finally last fall I booked an Autism assessment resulting in a confirmation of Autism just two weeks ago. 28 years of living with it, roughly 5 years of knowing it but needing to go through the slow process to get to a diagnosis. I am finally starting to feel like myself again after four years of struggling and it's in part because I now know why I struggle. When I was growing up my experience with Autistic people were those who needed constant assistance. That was the only representation I had for the spectrum. Now that I have realized I am Autistic and especially now that I have confirmation with my diagnosis I understand it so much more. I am an Autistic person and I am pretty sure I had a significant number of Autistic friends growing up. I cannot separate it from who I am and I also can't really hide it. I am unable to operate the way many neurotypical people can. Sorry, person with neurotypicalness. People (somehow) see that I am different the same way we see skin colour. Heck, most of my friends were certain I was Autistic before I was. Now, I will say there are certain disabilities where the person with x is appropriate even if Autism is not one. I am a person with a severe nut allergy. I am also a person with many vision issues. These are things that most everyone will overlook because they are not majorly impactful to how I function and interact. Someone may notice my glasses or my eyes twitching but it's easily overlooked. For my nut allergy, how would anyone know until I'm already swelling like a balloon. These are disabilities where person with x feels appropriate to me. If someone was as ridiculous to me as they were to you, I'd likely be less kind to them and I might end up in a meeting with HR after... I feel like I'd get them to shut up by comparing their argument to racial slurs, "well, that's what we have always called people with dark skin". If that line doesn't do the trick to get the point across I could fall back on the Jewish, Irish, Italian or Native parts of my family. I'm sure I could find some comparisons for them there... Okay, I'm done being angry at that person's ignorance...funny story time. Growing up I used to eat toast and Nutella for breakfast every single day. When 2008 hit and my dad lost his job Nutella was cut from the budget. When I finally tried it again, I was now allergic... I still know the taste, I crave it... I went for testing last year but the allergy is still present. The world is a cruel place. Basically, I have a safe food that I want to eat but it'll kill me.
Yeah the same thing for me! Self suspecting(I most likely am autistic but saying I am can be harmful to actually autistic people bc there is a chance of it being my trauma) not yet diagnosed the thing is some people who are autistic can hide it to an extent, but not full. Anyone saying they can full time appear neurotypical, not know how to act autistic, and actually understand social cues but have fatigue probably have a social anxiety or depression with chronic fatigue. chronic fatigue happens in times of stress.
I was also trained to say "person with Autism." THEN I heard that many Autistic people prefer the term "Autistic." So, I listened to the people that matter most: Autistic people and that's the term I use most of the time. Of course, if someone prefers the term "person with Autism" for themselves (or their child, if the child is unable to express their preference), then I will use that term for that person.
Had almost this exact conversation with an old co-worker... She was a nurse who worked as the director for a summer camp for disabled children before moving to our camp as general staff. She absolutely refused to learn, and even tried to "correct" other staff who had actually gone through our sensitivity training (run by myself and three of my also disabled co-workers, two of whom were academically pursuing fields related to disability and advocacy). Safe to say I still get very sad thinking of all the kids who had to be under her care.
I feel like the best way to go about it is to generally refer to the group of people how the majority would like, but with each individual, ask their preference if you want to have a trusted relationship with your patients/client.
I have even heard the term "autistics" used instead of either and I don't personally find that offensive or dehumanizing. I wonder what the consensus is. I use "autistic person/people", it is pretty easy and just sounds more natural.
@@ZhovtoBlakytniy I wonder, too. I used "autistics" just 5 minutes ago and now I hope I didn't offend anyone. Kind of don't see a problem myself, though.
It’s part of the “person first” training that says “person” before the problem. The issue is a lot of autistic people don’t see themselves as people with a problem, just as people who are different. The “people first” mentality makes the trait or condition a “problem”.
I almost got stuck with ADHD because the Doctor was dead set on keeping my ADHD Diagnosis. Got sent to a Behavioural Consultant who threw out his recommendation and it turns out I have autism, not ADHD.
That's double stupid, because not only was he refusing to consider autism but he also refused to acknowledge the fact that people can have multiple things at the same time 🤦 Autism and adhd in particular get diagnosed alongside each other quite a lot. I think I've seen people online call it audhd, or something along that line 😁 if you're already diagnosed with one of the two, the odds that you have the other are signifficantly higher than the overal population's odds.
As an AuDHD person myself, I ask: why not both? I didn’t have the ADHD aspect diagnosed until last year at 52, but autistic at 31. I’ve suspected possibly ADHD for a long time, just didn’t get around to it. Recently read a description of what happens with ADHD at young ages, and… yup, that can largely explain failing first grade, possibly at least half, but I jumped into fourth in the middle of third.
@@undefinederror40404 Yup, it's AuDHD. About 40-70% of autistic people also have ADHD but only about 20-50% of people with ADHD also have autism. I'm still mad about having gotten my autism diagnosis quite late in life (in my early 20s) despite being so obviously autistic and then not also having gotten tested for ADHD because everything points to me also having ADHD (I figured that out about two years ago) and I'm just now (I've turned 30 last year) in the process of trying to get it diagnosed. It also turns out my autistic family members very likely also have ADHD (they scored VERY similar to me in a reliable test) but weren't diagnosed (yet) with it either.
A neurotypical person, in an otherwise autistic social group, is the socially awkward one. See "double empathy problem," in which people tend to be "socially competent" only in groups of the same neurotype. Autistic people tend to do well in autistic groups, and neurotypical people tend to do well in neurotypical groups. And cool, understanding groups can work well with a diversity of neurotypes.
Yeah! Every Thanksgiving and Christmas my family has a big get-together, and I always end up in a side room with my cousins and brother. I’m diagnosed autistic, and my cousins are probably autistic (it’s kind of extremely obvious, but they haven’t been tested). My brother is neurotypical. For those two days a year, HE feels like the awkward outsider. We’re not trying to exclude him, but he just doesn’t know what we’re talking about, and we seem to have a pretty different conversation flow than a neurotypical conversation.
I _have_ autism, it isn’t a passenger I’m on a road trip with. I don’t get to take vacations from it. It’s who and what I am every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year of every decade of every century of my life from day one until I die. When I die, my autism will also die with me, so even then it’s still who I am. Somehow people have gotten it into their heads that just because I’m not _just_ autism, that somehow means that autism isn’t part of who I am. It literally shapes my every perception, memory, thought, and experience in my life. I’m not “just autism”, but at the same time, there is nothing about me that isn’t affected by my being autistic. Autistic people are still people just like blonde people are still people and black people are still people and so on and so forth. I do wonder how this differs for people who have other disabilities though. And do the lines of demarcation tend to split between those who were born with their disabilities vs. those who became disabled after not being disabled to begin with? I could easily see there being a significant difference along that line and it makes me curious about other people’s experiences and preferences.
Mentally ill people often don't like person first language either even though we aren't born with it. Family members of mentally ill people seem to like person first language more.
I developed an auditory processing disorder after a traumatic brain injury in my 20s. I have said nearly identical versions of what you say here. I'm disabled, not a person with a disability. The latter implies it's something I carry with me, rather than an inseparable part of me. My disability isn't something I might forget on the counter when I leave for work in the morning.
This is honestly how I feel with my current therapist right now, and I'm slowly phasing out more and more from sessions. Rescheduling, further and further out, because it feels like I'm not being heard. I have misophonia (and other things). You know what she told me? "Just focus on something else". Just don't focus on the noise that bothers you. You know. The thing you hear with your super hearing, and that triggers anger and fight or flight in you because of your crossed wires in your brain which is WHAT MISOPHONIA is. Just. Ignore it. Focus on something else. Positive self talk. As if that would, drown it out. Oh and "say it calmly". Just. Ya know. In that moment of intense fear, panic, and irritation, just be calm. Calm yourself down. Simple. 🙄😒😮💨
The foot specialist I went to months ago noticed how I used Autistic and wrote that instead. I pointed it out and she just said "well, that's what you used to describe yourself." I told her how happy that made me and how few people actually do that. I guess she was also interested in how we think and feel about our feet, since that's what she works with.
I had a doctors appointment and she just talked about autism like idk.. anemia or somn- Like thats a Good thing- like i did not expect the random house doctor lady ive never met to have an actual good grasp on autism- And she certainly wasnt like specialized in it either. She just understood it
I just got my late autism diagnosis on the 22nd of may 2024. Just 8 days ago. I'm 43 years old. I'm forever grateful for autistic youtubers like you. It means the world to me. Thank you. 🏆❤
Even just your reenactment gave me a headache. I would've exploded. It's like my neurotypical coworkers who get offended if I make a joke about ADHD (which I got diagnosed)
"You don't get to be ignorant AND stubborn. Ya gotta pick one." Kaelynn, plainly you've never been to Tennessee. Love your channel, and I'm learning, I think. I have an old friend who is autistic, and I think I'm beginning to understand him a little better, despite having known him for over 40 years.
🙄🤷♀️😤🤓😅 Why can't people listen?! Dyslexic / person with dyslexia here. I grew up in the era where "person with dyslexia" was recommended - and I must say, I do quite like that. I'm a person first and formost, and dyslexia is something I have. But, TBH, I don't really care either way and think I use both interchangeably when I'm talking about myself. Life is hard enough - I don't want anyone to have to worry about which words they use. What I DO care about is that people are respectful. Whatever words they use to describe me - as long as it's done with kindness and respect - that (in my opinion) is what matters. Great talking point though! I'm interested to hear what other people think 🤓💕
The problem many autistic people have with “person first” is it implies their autism is a problem to get mentioned later, when they don’t see their autism as a problem, just part of them.
I thinks to some degree she's trying to cover her a**. If she sticks with her training and someone is uncomfortable with her wording, she can "pass the buck" on to the training materials/policy. If the same thing happened while she was deviating from the training, she'd end up bearing more personal responsibility.
The MO of the ignorant and not very bright: “these are THE RULES and I’m not smart enough to figure out anything on my own so I NEED the rules! What am I supposed to do as a disability advocate? LISTEN and then act on the new information?? Heck no! I’m not actually here for anyone with disabilities, I’m just here to feel good about myself because I’m such a good person helping non-regular 🤮 people”
@@Wee_Catalyst It's not exactly ignorant to want to avoid losing your job by not deviating from the instructed literature. Need some more empathy here even if it's frustrating because your conclusion about their motive is not the right one to draw.
@@fuzzborne You have done nothing to defend how problematic it is to refuse to listen to the most recent training rather than the previous one As far as I’m concerned this person will actively harm disabled people and people on the spectrum because of their refusal to adapt with the person they’re literally right in front of So her motive is irrelevant-her propensity for harm due to stubbornly ignoring the people she’s supposed to respect is far more important I don’t care what you think and as far as empathy goes why don’t you shove yourself up yourself first? Thanks-I won’t be replying to a POS like you should you waste both our time responding
"Great. So you get how training works. It's good that we agree on that. And I'm sure you also know that training and standards get updated and improved over time. ... So, today we're at a training session, learning the latest, up to date best practice, which supercedes your old training. I'm grateful for you sharing your experience of how things used to be done before we involved the people we're trying to serve as clients and learned to understand their choices values and feelings, but it's important to understand that you need to update your references to stay current. That's what today is for, so I'd suggest you look at this like a fresh start. Can you do that? If you're still having problems let's chat at the end and I can link you with colleagues who are experienced in helping people with challenges around learning new things. Ok, that last paragraph is venting but I own it.
I better myself as I say sometimes my daughter has autism and I agree here with Kaeylinn. My daughter is autistic. Or my autistic daughter. As a parent I am reasonably new on this matter and learn a lot about it and how to best support my autistic daughter and what I learn helps my autistic daughter enormously as it’s a positive difference between day and night from before her diagnosis and after her diagnosis. She is thriving and is much happier. So thank you Kaeylinn and others for sharing their experiences, knowledge and how parents and other people can support autistic people.
So I think the one thing that is being lost here is that this employee is likely worried that they might be fired for using "HR unapproved language", even if you are right. (If you already didn't do so) It might go a long way to clear any suggested language updates with their higher ups, and then just tell them, "I have cleared this with your management, and this is what you should do now". Otherwise, I think your tact was awesome, and the right way to go about it. Thank you for the work you do!
From my personal experience the people who work in disability services are well meaning people who are underfunded and over worked with an unrealistic caseload that they are lucky to remember anyone’s name. Especially state provided services are lacking in many areas. The system has a long journey to make before it will actually help people.
From my experience working with disability workers, a significant number of them are communal narcissists. Those who aren't are rarely in a position of power. The most problematic ones tend to work for the government. It's worst for people with invisible disabilities like autism and C-PTSD. Many workers even aggravate things by not employing proper deescalation techniques. As someone with C-PTSD, I actually feel safer with police officers than disability workers. It sounds ridiculous, but that's how it is. Cops have always treated me better. My worst experience with them is nowhere near as bad as the kind of treatment I received from healthcare professionals and disability workers. Considering their terrible reputation, which is warranted, it doesn't put the others in a good light. I've volunteered to work with disabled people and I received constant praise. I received zero training. I just treated them like normal people, making sure they feel safe and comfortable. People should be trained to be empathetic, not follow inhuman protocols.
In a professional setting, it’s the company that you need to change. Sometimes if caught not toeing the company line, there are bad outcomes. Many allistics won’t actually acknowledge this, and in context will just act like it’s their own point of view. It’s not helpful behaviour but it can explain some people like this
I just recently learned why our community prefers Autistic Person and it makes a lot of sense. This video explains it well in a short easy to understand way. :) Thanks
I think personal preference is key and checking in with someone to find out about language preferences should be the norm. However, just to throw it out there, some people may only see the autism as part of their identity, and not want it to define them entirely. For example "I have been diagnosed with autism" may be preferable for someone who isnt 100% on board with the medical model
I understand where these people come from. There was a huge push many years ago to focus away from adjectives because they were usually used as or confused with slurs (think of the R word as the prime example). The thing is, we went too far and made the disabilities somewhat of a taboo, which ends up making disabled people invisible or look as lesser. It doesn't change the fact that professionals must update their understanding of things, but it's less annoying if we see it as a part of a normal historical process of resignifying disabilities as a whole.
"I'm not offending you. I'm following etiquette rules I was taught. I know you don't like it, but I'm right, and if you don't like it, then it's your fault."
When new information conflicts with my training, I will generally prefer to stick to my training, unless the new information is coming from a new training. Though most people (in my experience) won't vocally push back when in this situation, they'll just appear to understand and capitulate while you're talking to them and keep their true feelings unchanged.
I'm just sad that in trying to "do my own research" I know now that I offended many people who didn't want to be burdened with explaining things to me, which is understandable. So I appreciate all your explanations 💖
Well, I also hate when they call autism a “disability” guess language is a matter of personal preference. It has downsides, but it gave me super senses among other things.
Once I went to a disability benefit assessment and I was asked, "How would you distinguish yourself from a normal person?" I responded by saying "whats normal?".
Oh my autism gets me hung up on semantics and analyzing how my wording is interpreted. Opposite of you lol. But that's why the topic is important to me.
@@Congiary I agree with OP. I will say: my neurodivergence gets me ridiculously obsessed with ridiculous minutia of analazing and categorizing things at times, including semantics. But sometimes I have to take a step back and recognize that I'm expending a lot of energy on something that doesn't actually matter that much. Intuitively it feels like it *should* matter because my brain cares so much about these distinctions, but it often doesn't.
WITH Autism sounds more like a disability than Autistic person. Its not that big a deal for me, but specifying with makes it sound like I shouldnt have it. It feel like something so obviously decided by a person who isnt experiencing it because they can't fathom actively indentifying with something they liken to a debilitation.
Thank you for explaining why saying “person with autism” could be seen in a negative light. I thought it was better to say it that way because “autistic person” made me feel like it was defining someone. Sometimes it seems people say “autistic person” in a demeaning way, so I didn’t think it was respectful to use that terminology.
Before I knew I myself was autistic I was in training as a worker and during the training I raised my hand and said that some people want to be called autistic and shouldn't it be dependent on each person's preference? The presenter said thid to me: if you have a client who calls himself "fatso" and said he wants to be called fatso and likes that term, it is the job of the professional to stand their own ground and not call the client a derogatory word just because that's what they want to be called. I was horrified and felt embarassed among about 50 new workers at this agency's orientation week. I then went on to working at my specific campus and was harassed, threatened and bullied on the job. I lasted about a month until one morning in the middle of the work day I got up and walked out. This orientation was one week long in March 2019. I started the job in April and by May I had enough. Fast foreword to March 2024, I am now diagnosed with adhd and autism level 2.
I know the point is that autistic people overwhelmingly prefer autistic person to person with autism because they consider autism a part of their identity. But it's an overgeneralization to say that's true of everyone with disability. It is quite common to encounter people who like that you treat them just like another person. To me, the main problem with the disability advocate is an unwillingness to accept that not every disability is the same. The main rule is to be respectful and listen. If they can't grasp that, how will they react when they find out different individuals may have different preferences? Like, while I'm a person with OCD, I do not mind OCD jokes. But others very much do.
I don't really care what people call me but to be honest no one would naturally say "person with... “ vs"... Person" and that seems more offensive and disingenuous than whatever they choose to call me. Other people don't define me.
I, as someone with autism, want to be called a person with autism. Someone else with autism/another autistic person might have a diferent prefrence. Please keep in mind that there is no right or wrong
"Autistic people prefer you to say, 'autistic people'." "We were trained to say, 'person with autism', so that's what I say." "You need to listen to what disabled people say." "We were trained to say, 'person with autism', so that's what I say." "Would you like a cup of tea?" "We were trained to say, 'person with autism', so that's what I say."
I just dont get why anyone gets into the medical field with a personality like that. The lady in question can hear but shes not listening and i think thats a sign of bad medical practice. You need to always be willing to see new persepectives to fully help your patients, more vulnerable patients who struggle to expresss themselves. I get so mad when people are this set in their ways. I love listening to you talk it helps me work on how to express myself with coworkers and loved ones so much better. Thank you! 🎉
Well... I describe myself as a person with autism, but that has probably mostly to do with me (and my family) finding it hard to acknowledge that I have autism. But that might also have something to do with a lack of understanding, even though I have been diagnosed with other labels (which are now included in the autism the spectrum) since I was 9. Long story short, due to a lack of support and knowledge during childhood and stereotypes like "but you are a girl" and "you don't look autistic", I am now (as a 30 yearold) getting support and learning about autism. Also, in my country autistic person (aka "autist") in seen as a swearword. So yeah, that might also have something to with it. The more you know.🌈
I will say it can be confusing because I have heard both. I always respect whatever the individual/family prefers. And honestly we should just normalize asking how people prefer to be addressed on all ways.
Some people cant imagine altering their language to better accomodate another person's preferred method of labelling themselves. Im an autistic person but thankfully im not too affected by whatever anyone calls me even if they used outright offensive slurs... Thats a reflection on them, not me.
It’s like wearing glasses vs being nearsighted. Myopia is a normalized impairment that was historically a disability, it’s easier to understand due to it being everywhere. Glasses are a tool used for accommodation like a fidget or headphones. I wear them: I am a person with glasses or wearing glasses not a glasses person. I can separate the glasses from myself taking them on and off. Underneath the glasses I am still nearsighted that doesn’t change. Being nearsighted is a description that is physically within my body, just as autism is in the brain as a neurotype or neurological disorder. It is in someone’s genes to be autistic. I can’t easily change my brain like I could my eyes through surgery. Back to the syntax or word order: you don’t say person with nearsightedness. You could say person with myopia, but you could also say myopic person. Using myopia is a medical term meant more for doctors and paperwork vs average people and casual conversation. Like how I have myopia and autism spectrum disorder, thus I am a nearsighted autistic person. You don’t go up to a kid with glasses and say they have myopia, you say they are nearsighted. What you are vs what you have. Also, just like there’s cis and trans, there’s allistic and autistic! I’m sure you know that, but I just wanna point it out.
Also also, I used have and with interchangeably. Using with feels more separated than have: person with autism vs person that has autism. The with feels like it refers to the diagnosis itself and not the condition to me. It makes me think of a person with a purse, an accessory, and I don’t carry my autism in a little purse. Semantics and syntax are hard. I also dunno when to capitalize autism. I wish it were like Deaf, where capitalized means being apart of the community vs the state of being deaf. I’m hearing and studied ASL for nonverbal communication for myself and for my little sister who is nonverbal all the time as well as for Deaf people. I like the visual learning vs auditory learning. Have a grand day!!! :D
As someone who also has glaucoma, I absolutely love this analogy. So when I have to explain my autism for whatever reason. I'm actually going to use my glaucoma as the example. You did a fabulous job making everything crystal clear.
A lot of these things are trends that change with the times and the social context. There was a big push in the aughts and maybe into the 2010s to use "person first language" for people with disabilities. In fact, look at the phrase I just used--"people with disabilities"--it's too many words/syllables compared to disabled people, which is what I grew up saying, but I was trained into the mouthful and it's what I still use. It's been a decade or two since I've read about the history, but I'm pretty sure that push came out of the disabled community, even though many disabilities are just as much a part of a person as myopia or autism are. Their point was that they found it dehumanizing to be identified with their disability, vs being a person first, who also has X. Actually, this same (silly IMO) thing is playing out in my own field, transportation planning, where we're now supposed to say "people walking" instead of pedestrians or walkers, "people cycling," "people driving," etc, even though it's a serious PITB to do so, because supposedly the person-first language is more likely to remind others that pedestrians are *people* and therefore we should care if they are hit by a car. I think that language is very important, and can certainly be used problematically and offensively. But the people with autism vs autistic people seems silly to me. Just as we can say "people with blond hair," "blond haired people", or just plain ol' "blonds" (or myopic people or people with myopia), it only changes the meaning to the small number of people who are over-analyzing it. To see what is actually respectful, you should look--as you did--at the language used for truly benign things, and for benign things both options are usually equally availble, people first or identity language, and which to use depends more an grammatical context and ease of use than anything else.
To be fair, there has been lots of disagreement over this over the years and some autistic people absolutely were (and to a lesser degree still are) advocates of person first language. Also, some other parts of the disabilty community still heavily favour this approach. Obviously in general you just go with the majority and if in doubt just ask someone their preferences (and don't argue with those!).
This has serious "I'm so scared breaking the rules that I don't understand why the rules are there" vibes. Wait a minute, *restrictive & inflexblible adherence to rules & guidelines*? Hmm, the undiagnosed tism is strong with this one. 😮
"its better to say *white person* rather than a *person with whiteness*! This is a fantastoc example to help others understamd and get with the times. Hot damn i love you! Xx
Yes as an autistic person it’s that logic from those that want to help that is so frustrating. They don’t want to change because they were trained that was the non offensive way of saying it, but when you say it’s offensive they say no it’s not it’s the non offensive way of saying it. I get the rigidity in thought as I have it as an autistic person but if you explain it to me I can change too often neurotypical can’t seem to chsnge
What part of offensive things are the things that cause offence is hard so for these people. NT won't change because in their heart of hearts they think they are the best and no one else matters.
@@silentlyjudgingyou I obviously did not communicate properly. As an Autistic person I don’t want to be marginalized by being called person with autism. However NTs can change but they don’t live in my shoes or our community so they look at it from their point of view and act in a way to avoid not be offensive but it’s offensive the way they treat us. Thus maybe they need to listen before they make their decisions
I had something similar happened to me when I became disabled. I am visually impaired and I was talking about being disabled and my advocate was like. No, we don't say that Word and I was like I am a cripple😂 And then she got my point.
Suffer 😭 It baffles me that they ASSUME someone "suffers from autism". No, the suffering here is because of those that didn't make the world welcoming enough to autistic people, NOT because of autism itself. What's worse is correcting the person on what they said about themselves and assuming how they feel... That's so weird
@@DeadVoxel Some people use "suffer with" as an all-purpose way of saying "you've been diagnosed with". It sort of reminds me of how the brits say that you've "fallen pregnant" or we say that you've "fallen ill". Falling has nothing to do with it, it's just a turn of phrase. I don't think "suffers with" is the best turn of phrase, but I also don't think use of that term implies that they are referring to anyone experiencing actual suffering.
Honestly this is one their boss or colleagues need to step in and say hey you aren't listening and are causing a distribution by not listening to are advocate here take step back and deep breath this isn't a personal attack just because someone is correcting something widely told ( if someone had done this to me it would have saved me alot of embarrassment and no doubt other people alot of frustration)
I'm a person with Autism and I personally prefer the term "person with Autism" though I can definitely see how other people would prefer "Autistic person". Edit: I don't have a strong preference either way here honestly.
Very good point. Also, not exactly parallel but it reminds me for example of some black women's advocacy groups (correctly) asking to call them exactly that: "black women". This is instead of "women of colour". As it in some contexts it is undermining the subject of the conversation. Same underlying principle: listen to the community, educate yourself and others, lean into the (often temporary) discomfort.
I am a person with Autism. I don't ever like to be called Autistic. I wish this wasn't a social issue at all because I have people identifying my disability the way I don't like, and I can't correct them in the moment. We should be advocating for differences, not a hard "identify this way" or the other.
I don't believe Kaelynn told anyone how to identify. I think her message was directed at neurotypicals and telling them that the safest thing to do is what the majority of affected people prefer. But I'm sure her central point about stubbornness entails adapting when you know the preferences of the person you're speaking with!
Same. I consider my autism a condition that needs treated. I want to be able to vaccume without crying because of the sound. It feels weird to say I am my symptoms. And God I hate when they just say "She's an autistic" but that's more of a grammar thing autistic isn't a noun.
I was trained to say "people with disabilities" instead of "disabled person": because it put the person first and put the emphasis on the human instead of the condition
I love that, you have to pick one 🤣 You're 100% correct, that is, if you want to be a nice person. Someone who is stubborn and ignorant is just an asshole I think
I don’t want to fault all “Neurotypicals” with this because I know it’s not everyone, but their ability to follow certain rules without ever questioning them while ignoring others is amazingly frustrating to me. I always seem to value the things they don’t and vice versa. Rules are there for a reason but I will always put another persons well being over an arbitrary rule and that’s why I’ll be the best worker my bosses never wanted lmao
“They decided what our preferences were, without ever actually consulting a disabled person.”
THIS. Just, This.
Exactamundo!!
@@DrinkYourNailPolish I love that google says that’s another language but when I ask it to translate it just says the same word
Mic drop 🎤
Can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn 🤷♀️
well i mean school exists so..
@@dudemanlastnameHopefully I’ll never be surrounded by that many braindead people than high school again.
Preferred ignorance. It's super sad.
Lots of non-autistic people have very, very rigid thinking patterns.
You can always plant the seed though. If you've done your part the rest lies with them 😊
"Well then you're a person with idiocy, rather than an idiot"
😂
Hahahaha it seems that way at times in the world lol 😆😊
to me, person with autism makes it sound like something that can either be fixed or is something slowing us down
Well.. To be fair, it does slow a lot of us down, and that's the reason some folks insist on calling it a disability as well.
Tough subject. Language triggers people emotionally.
The analogy that sticks with me the most is the comparison between "ice cream with strawberries" and "strawberry ice cream." If you have ice cream with strawberries, the strawberries can be picked off; albeit with a little bit of strawberry juice remaining. If you have strawberry ice cream, the strawberries are a key ingredient to the ice cream that are blended in, and they can't be removed. Likewise with autism; a "person with autism" mentality implies that the autism can be "picked off" and disposed of, even if a little bit of autism juice is left behind, but that's barely noticeable if you do a thorough enough job of de-strawberrying the ice cream, or, sorry, performing ABA. An "autistic person" mentality implies that the autism is part of who the person is, and it can't (and shouldn't) be removed. I agree with the latter perspective, because some of the greatest minds in history have been autistic, or thought to be autistic--Stephen Sondheim, for example. He was thought to be autistic, and he wrote some of the most creative musicals that the world will ever see and hear.
@@emilyadams9986that's a fantastic analogy!!
It's like they think they get to decide what's part of us instead of us doing that, Autism is a central part of my personhood . It's as bad as calling me a person with gay instead of a lesbian.
@@emilyadams9986 Love it
Nothing about us without us.
Or, nothing for us, without us, that’s what I remembered as.
It’s as though it took that person SO LONG to accept/get used to saying “with autism” that they refuse to acknowledge what it actually means to adapt to language preferences. Somehow the training was given more importance than the message of the training.
Thank you for sharing your voice on the matter 💕
Rude as this person is for not taking it in the moment, I do kind of get the issue with adapting language. I grew up in an area that was pretty socially liberal so I there were a lot of trainings in my school led by the school/hired professionals and also many led by students about various nomenclature (primarily lgbtq+ but also sometimes disability). Everyone wanted different things and the standards changed constantly. Once when I was trying to politely refer to the developmentally delayed (ironically not knowing that I belonged to that group) and I just couldn't remember what the word was because it changed so often. I chose the most recent one I could remember and was chastised for it. It was so frustrating that even genuine effort wasn't good enough, and it made me want to be rude and just use the words people hated the most because they were asking more from me than I was able to give even when I truly tried. If there hadn't been such grave social consequences in my area, I probably would've just chosen the oldest term I could think of that wasn't considered a slur and dug in my heels just like this lady. I'm grateful to be out of that mindset now, but it's still true that I don't know the "current polite word" for every group because it's too difficult to remember and keep up with them all. Online I can just look up the answer (assuming I can find a decent source...) but in real life conversation if I can't remember or if nobody has told me the latest changes then I'm just out of luck. I'm so grateful to not live in that area any more but I think that people there are probably still being pushed too hard, causing them to be like this lady.
This reminds me of that teacher who calls a kid by the wrong name for the first half of the year and them finally realizes that isn't the kids actual name but insists it is too difficult to change so that kid will just have to respond to the wrong name for the rest of the school year.
@@kinseylise8595"everyone was tes different things and the standards changed constantly"
YES!!
Agree with everything you have said. We work so hard to remember that people in groups are not a monolith....yet many members of any given group want the public to know how to respectfully refer to them....and surprise, the group isnt a Monolith, so what many want, others don't....or the general standards changes completely in five years as young people come of an Ge to make their voices heard....or people who work in a field related to a specific group, but are NOT actually the group, sometimes have firm, loud opinions on terms that even the people they serve don't want, but as professionals they may have a lot of visibility and authority.
Worse still, terms will circulate the MOST rapidly for groups that experience exceptionally high stigma or prejudice, because the new respectful terms simply become slurs.
"Colored" for example, and "Negro" were almost as bad as the N word by the 90s/early 2000s
But the fact that you have things like the National Association of Colored People,
The Negro College fund, and the use of both terms in the speeches of MLK jr shows that just a few decades before, those were preferred, respectful terms.
Or the way "R*tarded" was once a respectful medical term meaning a child had a condition that made them develop more slowly on some level, and it replaced terms like "Moron" and "Idiot" that were also once medical terms categorizing degree of disability, and had become broadly used insults.....and they're all equally offensive things to call someone with a Developmental or intellectual condition now.
The 80s and 90s saw the introduction, of "Special Education"......shortened on doors and paperwork to Sp.Ed., which quickly became its own terrible slur 😔
We can keep on changing terms,
but when the stigma and prejudice and hate continue, the new terms are soon tainted and just have to be discarded, too.
And when people aren't monoliths, a prescribed formula of correct terms will never, ever make every single person in the group feel heard or respected....
If we can all just give each other the gift of kindness, patience, respect and grace?
I think that's about the best we can do....
@@melissasaint3283 Agreed! It also frustrates me that people sometimes put the politeness of the name over helping people. Recently someone was arguing with me that removing Aspergers as a diagnosis was good because the name came from a Nazi. That's all well and good in general but where and when I was a small child, women couldn't get Autism diagnoses, but they COULD get Aspergers diagnoses. Aspergers was taken away but doctors weren't convinced that women could have autism. Girls my age were the very last ones to get Aspergers diagnoses and my area happened to lose the diagnosis late. Girls from then until now (a good 20 years later) didn't get any kind of diagnosis because Aspergers didn't exist and Autism "was a boy disease". I can appreciate the desire to consolidate similar conditions and to remove unpleasant wording, but I cannot believe that someone tried to argue that it was better for 20 years of autistic women to get no diagnosis and no support just so they wouldn't be referred to as a word with bad origins.
A childhood friend had more severe autism than me so she managed to get an Aspergers diagnosis, and thank goodness it was still available! She REALLY needed those supports and managed to get into a school that went her speed and properly taught socializing. Now she's in college and has friends and passions, losing none of the spirit she has as a child. If she had been forced into the regular high school I went to, she'd have failed math and they would have buried her amazing artistic gifts under remedial homework and "we can't make an exception, you just aren't trying hard enough". It's criminal that autistic women born after her had to be crushed like that just because the word "Aspergers" had an unfortuante origin. I think sometimes people get so caught up in what to call things that they forget about the bigger picture.
@@kinseylise8595 Yes! Just plain 100% facts!
💯
The indignity of having someone try to overpower you on someone else's authority
They just want to pay their bills. I am an autist and this video is stupid lol
@@VLanes-op9vv Everyone wants to pay their bills, that's not a blanket excuse to be bad at your job and ignore good advice lol
...is an indignity that many, many autistic people are all too familiar with.
Even if she adopted the language preferred by the autistic community, I'm not sure this person can think beyond trying to cast the perfect Hogwarts spell instead of responding and caring about real people.
Exactly!! The language choice is not a huge deal. People with imperfect understanding of terminology can still be wonderful and helpful. But people who refuse to absorb new information are rarely the helpful type.
@@Kaelynnism We can call it "new information", but it's not factual information that "People having the diagnosis of Autism prefer identity first language" when even a small percentage of people having the diagnosis, disagree with the majority of the "community" and prefer person first language.
I'm not stubborn or ignorant, but I don't like people telling me how to identify. I chose how to identify, and I'm choosing to stick with it because I am a person with Autism.
@@dylannoalan615as a former support worker, I guess the most important thing (for us) is that we get reminded that the best way to determine how someone prefers to be referred to is to actually ask them, rather than rely on a one-size-fits-some approach.
It's depressing how long its taken to get to that stage, though.
Yes they absolutely can. They’re counting on you thinking that they’re incompetent, they’re anything but. They KNOW, they just CHOSE not to 🤷🏻♀️ She wasn’t Psychotic, she was aware.
@@peterclarke7006 it’s actually really nice to have somebody ask. My therapist asked if I preferred “autistic person” or “person with autism” during our first session, and it felt nice. It was a good way of showing that she cared about MY opinions and what *I* wanted. :)
Former RBT here -- I can attest that this language was taught to me during my early trainings. I never quite understood it. It seemed to me like the purpose was to detach the word autism from the individual, as though it were a disease that could be cured with the right medicine (or conditioning, if we're being honest).
My old boss had this whole thing about how her job as a BCBA was to help kids "reach their full potential", when in reality, the intention was clearly to make kids act like neurotypicals. From how they dressed themselves, went to the bathroom, brushed their teeth, ate food, colored. Everything had to be "natural".
I'm sorry for having contributed to such an awful field of science. Thank You for making videos like these, Kaelynn. As someone diagnosed with ADHD a child, C-PTSD as an adult with symptoms that may land me somewhere on the spectrum, I genuinely want to be an advocate.
Please keep making content and healing the division.
Since you referred to ABA as "an awful field of science" (I only disagree with you on the "science" part), I assume you don't know that Kaelynn has worked as an RBT for several years and convinced herself she can reform the profession. In a perfect world, she would come to the conclusion that you did and walk away from an ableist and abusive industry that is only using her as a token, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
BTW, out of curiosity, how did you come across this video? Was it just recommended to you, or do you consider yourself a fan of Kaelynn's? I see a lot of people comment on her videos who seem to be completely unaware she works in ABA (something she tries to downplay because she knows it will turn most Autistic viewers off, but by no means tries to keep secret).
Does anyone know how to link to or share someone’s UA-cam comment? I suddenly have a need to link to and share someone’s UA-cam comment.
@@GhostIntoTheFog I did not know for certain that Kaelynn has worked as an RBT. I assumed she had some experience in the position based on other content I've seen of hers.
To your question, it's a bit of both. I would consider myself a 'casual fan'. Kaelynn's content was coming up under recommended videos for a while, so I would tune in to some of the Reels (like this one), short-form videos, and pieces of 'Love on the Spectrum'.
I will say that, though my choice of words was sharp and a show of appeal to my own ignorance, I don't believe that certain aspects of ABA isn't beneficial. Still, I think it is used to measure and quantify acceptable behaviors that I view as constantly changing.
In my experience--not saying this is true, just from what I've seen first-hand--behavioral scientists make some kind of breakthrough, the data that follows is used to advocate a cause outside of it, things go awry for leaders of said cause after a while, then it's back to the drawing board until another breakthrough happens.
When it comes to ABA, my question is, if one of the goals in ABA is to re-shape behavior so that it matches other more commonly accepted behaviors, can commonly acceptable behavior, then, be clearly defined? Until then, is the goal to create the illusion of positive change until others become more tolerant? Both? Neither? There's a better question out there than I could think of, I'm sure, but this is what drove me away from ABA.
In my view, if the goal were to data track and analyze personal growth, it's a beautiful tool for accounting patterns in behavior that may be reductive to one's learning experience. But it wasn't. The electro shock treatment was replaced with "cool or not cool" strategies (peer pressure). When that didn't work, it became "planned ignoring" and "denied access to desired reinforcement" (scarcity). Humans are really good at finding subtler ways of abusing each other and calling it teaching. But, of course, that's just where I am with it today. I am open to adopting new ideas, enhancing my perspective, and developing a more flexible point of view, but I am, admittedly, scared of change, and I think a lot of people are. Change appears to be more frightening than growth, but that could be part of an underlying issue.
Idk. That's where I'll leave it. Thank You for informing me about Kaelynn's RBT background, and for your follow up questions.
Imo, "reaching their full potential" should always be about helping autistic kids learn and develop skills with and from their autistic traits, as these traits will never go away. They need to learn to live with them and even embrace these traits, use them to their advantage and help them find ways to make life a little easier. It's such a shame that people still think that the neurotypical way is somehow more "natural", even though... both are. These are just two different natures, but they are both equally natural. People shouldn't force kids to grow into the neurotypical environment and "blend in", but rather they should make the neurotypical environment more diverse and welcoming to the neurodivergent people. That's such a plain and simple concept, yet people still think that forcing someone to change is better and easier than simply being more accepting and accommodating...
With that being said, you couldn't have known how bad it was until you've experienced it firsthand, there's nothing to apologize for! However, I do believe things can still be changed around if this field of science falls in the right hands. Preferably in the hands of autistic people themselves
Yeah you nailed it. Saying "with autism" makes it sound like an illness, something that we "got". Like, we say people HAVE cancer, AIDS, COVID, etc. But having autism? No. We ARE autistic, and it's so different, it's our whole being.
Level 2 autistic human here. Thank you very much for your mission. This one is huge.
Saying "human" is so real of you.
Bruh it's so unnecessary "person with autism/autistic person" both get the point across. It's so unnecessary to be so nit-picky about it.
May you continue to gain EXP and level up ❤️
@@neonice might be worth actually listening to autistic voices on the issue…
@@neonice…Did you watch the short or not
At least this experience is a really nice example of the appeal to tradition fallacy, a logical fallacy where a claim is rejected based on how it affects what has been accepted as correct for a long time rather than logical reasoning. "That's the way it's always been"
Exactly. I see this wayyy too much especially in the topics I advocate for. "Well it always worked before, why change now?" even when I provide them with proof of why it would do more good to change. It's not truly about preserving what's good, it's about being stubborn and staying in your comfort zone. It's like only keeping your old shoes because they still protect your feet even if a new pair would look much better, feel better, smell better, and not need regular glue changing... all because you just don't feel like doing anything else. I like to jokingly call that "Old people syndrome".
Nifty parallel: As a homeless person, a lot of my peers resent the "no, it's 'unhoused person' or 'person experiencing homelessness'" language trend, because it carries "things wealthy patronizing performative people say" vibes. I've often heard people say things like "suburban white moms are too busy policing language to actually help us".
This is VERY individual; there are diverse and complex subcultures/intersections within the homeless community.
Many people do NOT want to identify with homelessness as anything more than a temporary experience, and that's important for their self-perception as someone who will not continue experiencing it.
Some of us, however, feel connected to our community and value its shaping of our identities. I probably won't always be unhoused (I do use "unhoused population" as a broad neutral term when speaking in the context of public health and our needs at scale) but I will always be part of the homeless community, just like someone is still part of their ethnic community if they relocate away from their peers in it.
Just food for thought! I think the subject of identity/what we define as our identity is really interesting.
Thanks for sharing your experience and adding to the conversation! It makes sense other communities would have similar thoughts on what they’re called, with a variety of preferences. Also, Gosh that “Suburban white moms are too busy policing language to actually help us”, I felt that in my *Soul*.
I personally have been really lucky to not be part of the homeless community, but I feel like a lot of groups of people can understand that phrase. Those “supporters” talk and talk, but rarely donate money or time to help out those groups they’re talking about.
This is such an interesting parallel. I also feel like "person with autism" separates me from my community. Unfortunate that so many sensitivity efforts make us feel lesser-than. Like when "differently abled" was happening, and made Disabled feel like a dirty word. Or "African American" completely disregarding the black population in the USA that are not African. These band-aids designed to make it more comfortable for people who don't fit the description, so they can ignore major issues easier.
@@Congiary Well, I’m autistic and don’t want to be part of “the community”. I’m just me, not part of any community. I don’t like the word “disabled” either. I have extra abilities bc of autism too.
I guess we should just simply not call people something they hate…
I thought "unhoused" was like...van life people who do that willingly
@@yYSilverFoxYy I'm glad you're differently abled. However I just can't do something. There's no different way I can do them, I just can't do them. So disabled in the right term, not differently abled.
I've fought with so many abled people on what I SHOULD be called, it's so infuriating (so many hearing people insist on calling me "hearing impaired" to my face, for example, when I've made it painfully clear that I prefer hard of hearing)
If people are arguing with you about the appropriate term for you, then that's a problem. Or if this is people who are particularly close to you, either as friend/family/professionla, then that is also a problem. If either of the above apply, then disregard the rest of my comment. But for anyone a bit further out in your circles, it's likely just a memory thing. They're going to use the term that either they're most familiar with or have been explicitly taught is most respectful. Once they've learned one term, it's a lot of cognitive work to learn another one, particularly if they're now being asked to use both terms and remember what applies to who. Doesn't make it any less frustrating for you, but the more specialized language we ask people to use for us--even if there's very good justification for it--the less likely it will be used by any but our nearest and dearest.
Please don't call us abled people. We prefer ⭐ person with abilities ✨
It's like they all view us as children to boss around all because they have abilities we don't, so somehow THEY have a say in how we exist. I hate superiority complexes so much that it makes me want to scream. We're ADULTS, not your own children seeking guidance from you.
Ergh. That gave me flashbacks to when I used to be a support worker for autistic adults and I'd go on training sessions with some of my more... entrenched colleagues. It's amazing how much offence people can manage to take around them just being politely informed that they might have to change how the address someone.
What's even more amazing is that some of them had been there so long that they probably got offended when asked to refer to the people they support as "people with autism" rather than whatever horribly insensitive name they used to get told they had to call them. 😂
Plot twist: the individual is autistic and is struggling to accept that the previous information she was told was incorrect.
Probably not but from the way they were arguing, it sounds a lot like me when I get two pieces of conflicting information and can’t manage it mentally
I admit I am guilty of that 😅
That's exactly what it sounded like to me!
My thoughts exactly
Yeah I thought the same thing. Rigid rule following can get confusing
Mood
Why is it so difficult for a person to hear someone else say, "I prefer ___" and just accept it? Sure somthing might have been ingrained into your natural way of speaking, but is it really so difficult to just try? 90% of the time it won't matter, but on the comparably rare time when around that one person, putting in the effort even if you make a mistake, shows you are trying and that they are heard.
Right? Like even if that's something *you* wouldn't enjoy, you should still respect people's right to determine what descriptions *they* enjoy for themselves. Like as a queer person who supports other queer people, I do find it a bit mentally uncomfortable to use "it/its" pronouns for someone or refer to them as "tr*nny" or "f*g", because those terms would feel dehumanizing if used on me. But I get over my hangups because they're not being used on me, they're being used for someone whose wishes I'm respecting by doing so.
I can understand some initial confusion at the identity first vs person first language. Ten years ago i was trained to use person first language ie "person with ADHD, person with autism". However, the autistic community has made it clear they prefer identity first -- "autistic person." It's not that hard to adjust to once explained, and we should obviously follow the preferences of the community we are talking about. You were gracious to her in explaining this difference. Nevertheless she persisted lol.
Exactly. I still can't wrap my head around why people would be so averse to being corrected besides if they were ND themselves and struggle with RSD, struggles in change, emotional dysregulation, trauma, etc OR if they were just following a common NT complex of misreading and translating simple gestures as insulting/doubting their capabilities. Psychology and building empathy is one of my special interests, I'd really like to dive further into why people act this way.
Good practice talking to someone like that; sure there's a key to at least getting them to listen.
I got a formal Autism diagnosis only two weeks ago... First off, thank you Kaelynn. ❤ It's when I found you on UA-cam that I finally got the courage to book the appointment. Seriously, you are one fantastic human being!
I have lived 28 years of constantly being the odd one out in the world and never understanding why. Pretty much since high school I'd end up going down the Google rabbit hole every few months trying to figure out why I am the way I am. A few years ago, actually just before 2020 happened, I started suspecting it might be Autism, then 2020 hit and every aspect of my life has been on overdrive since...including my mental health issues. I finally got myself a family doctor in late 2020, took me several months to get comfortable enough to open up about my mental health struggles. I started addressing my anxiety then I got an ADHD diagnosis and medication a year after that then finally last fall I booked an Autism assessment resulting in a confirmation of Autism just two weeks ago. 28 years of living with it, roughly 5 years of knowing it but needing to go through the slow process to get to a diagnosis. I am finally starting to feel like myself again after four years of struggling and it's in part because I now know why I struggle.
When I was growing up my experience with Autistic people were those who needed constant assistance. That was the only representation I had for the spectrum. Now that I have realized I am Autistic and especially now that I have confirmation with my diagnosis I understand it so much more. I am an Autistic person and I am pretty sure I had a significant number of Autistic friends growing up. I cannot separate it from who I am and I also can't really hide it. I am unable to operate the way many neurotypical people can. Sorry, person with neurotypicalness. People (somehow) see that I am different the same way we see skin colour. Heck, most of my friends were certain I was Autistic before I was.
Now, I will say there are certain disabilities where the person with x is appropriate even if Autism is not one. I am a person with a severe nut allergy. I am also a person with many vision issues. These are things that most everyone will overlook because they are not majorly impactful to how I function and interact. Someone may notice my glasses or my eyes twitching but it's easily overlooked. For my nut allergy, how would anyone know until I'm already swelling like a balloon. These are disabilities where person with x feels appropriate to me.
If someone was as ridiculous to me as they were to you, I'd likely be less kind to them and I might end up in a meeting with HR after... I feel like I'd get them to shut up by comparing their argument to racial slurs, "well, that's what we have always called people with dark skin". If that line doesn't do the trick to get the point across I could fall back on the Jewish, Irish, Italian or Native parts of my family. I'm sure I could find some comparisons for them there...
Okay, I'm done being angry at that person's ignorance...funny story time. Growing up I used to eat toast and Nutella for breakfast every single day. When 2008 hit and my dad lost his job Nutella was cut from the budget. When I finally tried it again, I was now allergic... I still know the taste, I crave it... I went for testing last year but the allergy is still present. The world is a cruel place. Basically, I have a safe food that I want to eat but it'll kill me.
Yeah the same thing for me! Self suspecting(I most likely am autistic but saying I am can be harmful to actually autistic people bc there is a chance of it being my trauma) not yet diagnosed the thing is some people who are autistic can hide it to an extent, but not full. Anyone saying they can full time appear neurotypical, not know how to act autistic, and actually understand social cues but have fatigue probably have a social anxiety or depression with chronic fatigue. chronic fatigue happens in times of stress.
I was also trained to say "person with Autism." THEN I heard that many Autistic people prefer the term "Autistic." So, I listened to the people that matter most: Autistic people and that's the term I use most of the time. Of course, if someone prefers the term "person with Autism" for themselves (or their child, if the child is unable to express their preference), then I will use that term for that person.
I really enjoy the way you communicate so clearly!! I inspire to be like that ❤
Wow, thank you!
And these are the people we go to for help
That’s horrible I’m autistic and I agree with you we are different from a “normal” person but that does not define us as functioning people
Had almost this exact conversation with an old co-worker... She was a nurse who worked as the director for a summer camp for disabled children before moving to our camp as general staff. She absolutely refused to learn, and even tried to "correct" other staff who had actually gone through our sensitivity training (run by myself and three of my also disabled co-workers, two of whom were academically pursuing fields related to disability and advocacy). Safe to say I still get very sad thinking of all the kids who had to be under her care.
I feel like the best way to go about it is to generally refer to the group of people how the majority would like, but with each individual, ask their preference if you want to have a trusted relationship with your patients/client.
I don't get why they're so set on saying "Person will austism" "Autistic person" is easier to say anyways because it's shorter
I have even heard the term "autistics" used instead of either and I don't personally find that offensive or dehumanizing. I wonder what the consensus is.
I use "autistic person/people", it is pretty easy and just sounds more natural.
@@ZhovtoBlakytniy It is easier and I personally don't have any issue with just saying autistic
@@ZhovtoBlakytniy I wonder, too. I used "autistics" just 5 minutes ago and now I hope I didn't offend anyone. Kind of don't see a problem myself, though.
It’s part of the “person first” training that says “person” before the problem. The issue is a lot of autistic people don’t see themselves as people with a problem, just as people who are different. The “people first” mentality makes the trait or condition a “problem”.
Because they think autism is shameful
I deal with this so often. Neurotypical people who lecture me on my own disability when I'm the one living with it. 🙄
❤
I almost got stuck with ADHD because the Doctor was dead set on keeping my ADHD Diagnosis. Got sent to a Behavioural Consultant who threw out his recommendation and it turns out I have autism, not ADHD.
That's double stupid, because not only was he refusing to consider autism but he also refused to acknowledge the fact that people can have multiple things at the same time 🤦
Autism and adhd in particular get diagnosed alongside each other quite a lot. I think I've seen people online call it audhd, or something along that line 😁 if you're already diagnosed with one of the two, the odds that you have the other are signifficantly higher than the overal population's odds.
As an AuDHD person myself, I ask: why not both?
I didn’t have the ADHD aspect diagnosed until last year at 52, but autistic at 31. I’ve suspected possibly ADHD for a long time, just didn’t get around to it.
Recently read a description of what happens with ADHD at young ages, and… yup, that can largely explain failing first grade, possibly at least half, but I jumped into fourth in the middle of third.
@@undefinederror40404 Yup, it's AuDHD. About 40-70% of autistic people also have ADHD but only about 20-50% of people with ADHD also have autism.
I'm still mad about having gotten my autism diagnosis quite late in life (in my early 20s) despite being so obviously autistic and then not also having gotten tested for ADHD because everything points to me also having ADHD (I figured that out about two years ago) and I'm just now (I've turned 30 last year) in the process of trying to get it diagnosed. It also turns out my autistic family members very likely also have ADHD (they scored VERY similar to me in a reliable test) but weren't diagnosed (yet) with it either.
@@undefinederror40404I think in some places they you only have an autism or ADHD diagnosis, not both
Most likely you have AuDHD. you can have BOTH and 99% of the times they overlap
A neurotypical person, in an otherwise autistic social group, is the socially awkward one. See "double empathy problem," in which people tend to be "socially competent" only in groups of the same neurotype. Autistic people tend to do well in autistic groups, and neurotypical people tend to do well in neurotypical groups.
And cool, understanding groups can work well with a diversity of neurotypes.
It's interesting to note that autistic people do better with NTs from other cultures than most NTs do.
Yeah! Every Thanksgiving and Christmas my family has a big get-together, and I always end up in a side room with my cousins and brother. I’m diagnosed autistic, and my cousins are probably autistic (it’s kind of extremely obvious, but they haven’t been tested). My brother is neurotypical. For those two days a year, HE feels like the awkward outsider. We’re not trying to exclude him, but he just doesn’t know what we’re talking about, and we seem to have a pretty different conversation flow than a neurotypical conversation.
I _have_ autism, it isn’t a passenger I’m on a road trip with. I don’t get to take vacations from it. It’s who and what I am every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year of every decade of every century of my life from day one until I die. When I die, my autism will also die with me, so even then it’s still who I am.
Somehow people have gotten it into their heads that just because I’m not _just_ autism, that somehow means that autism isn’t part of who I am. It literally shapes my every perception, memory, thought, and experience in my life. I’m not “just autism”, but at the same time, there is nothing about me that isn’t affected by my being autistic. Autistic people are still people just like blonde people are still people and black people are still people and so on and so forth.
I do wonder how this differs for people who have other disabilities though. And do the lines of demarcation tend to split between those who were born with their disabilities vs. those who became disabled after not being disabled to begin with? I could easily see there being a significant difference along that line and it makes me curious about other people’s experiences and preferences.
Mentally ill people often don't like person first language either even though we aren't born with it. Family members of mentally ill people seem to like person first language more.
I developed an auditory processing disorder after a traumatic brain injury in my 20s. I have said nearly identical versions of what you say here. I'm disabled, not a person with a disability. The latter implies it's something I carry with me, rather than an inseparable part of me. My disability isn't something I might forget on the counter when I leave for work in the morning.
This is honestly how I feel with my current therapist right now, and I'm slowly phasing out more and more from sessions. Rescheduling, further and further out, because it feels like I'm not being heard. I have misophonia (and other things). You know what she told me? "Just focus on something else". Just don't focus on the noise that bothers you. You know. The thing you hear with your super hearing, and that triggers anger and fight or flight in you because of your crossed wires in your brain which is WHAT MISOPHONIA is. Just. Ignore it. Focus on something else. Positive self talk. As if that would, drown it out. Oh and "say it calmly". Just. Ya know. In that moment of intense fear, panic, and irritation, just be calm. Calm yourself down. Simple. 🙄😒😮💨
The foot specialist I went to months ago noticed how I used Autistic and wrote that instead. I pointed it out and she just said "well, that's what you used to describe yourself." I told her how happy that made me and how few people actually do that. I guess she was also interested in how we think and feel about our feet, since that's what she works with.
love to hear how you respond to people even though they were not open to hearing it!
I had a doctors appointment and she just talked about autism like idk.. anemia or somn-
Like thats a Good thing- like i did not expect the random house doctor lady ive never met to have an actual good grasp on autism-
And she certainly wasnt like specialized in it either. She just understood it
A great example of someone who already made their mind before you told them the truth.
I just got my late autism diagnosis on the 22nd of may 2024. Just 8 days ago. I'm 43 years old. I'm forever grateful for autistic youtubers like you. It means the world to me. Thank you. 🏆❤
Good work as usual! Definitely a tough environment to communicate effectively constantly. I applaud you👏
Even just your reenactment gave me a headache. I would've exploded. It's like my neurotypical coworkers who get offended if I make a joke about ADHD (which I got diagnosed)
You are wonderful. I love your insightful humor. Thumbs up.
"You don't get to be ignorant AND stubborn. Ya gotta pick one." Kaelynn, plainly you've never been to Tennessee. Love your channel, and I'm learning, I think. I have an old friend who is autistic, and I think I'm beginning to understand him a little better, despite having known him for over 40 years.
🙄🤷♀️😤🤓😅 Why can't people listen?!
Dyslexic / person with dyslexia here. I grew up in the era where "person with dyslexia" was recommended - and I must say, I do quite like that. I'm a person first and formost, and dyslexia is something I have. But, TBH, I don't really care either way and think I use both interchangeably when I'm talking about myself. Life is hard enough - I don't want anyone to have to worry about which words they use. What I DO care about is that people are respectful. Whatever words they use to describe me - as long as it's done with kindness and respect - that (in my opinion) is what matters.
Great talking point though! I'm interested to hear what other people think 🤓💕
The problem many autistic people have with “person first” is it implies their autism is a problem to get mentioned later, when they don’t see their autism as a problem, just part of them.
I really enjoyed this Kaelynn! Very well explained! Amazing reenactment. Oscar worthy 😂
😅 thank you!
@@Kaelynnismoh for sure. What better way to get people to understand this!
I thinks to some degree she's trying to cover her a**. If she sticks with her training and someone is uncomfortable with her wording, she can "pass the buck" on to the training materials/policy. If the same thing happened while she was deviating from the training, she'd end up bearing more personal responsibility.
this actually makes a lot of sense
The MO of the ignorant and not very bright: “these are THE RULES and I’m not smart enough to figure out anything on my own so I NEED the rules! What am I supposed to do as a disability advocate? LISTEN and then act on the new information??
Heck no! I’m not actually here for anyone with disabilities, I’m just here to feel good about myself because I’m such a good person helping non-regular 🤮 people”
The training is offensive and needs to change but it won't change if people pass the buck
@@Wee_Catalyst It's not exactly ignorant to want to avoid losing your job by not deviating from the instructed literature. Need some more empathy here even if it's frustrating because your conclusion about their motive is not the right one to draw.
@@fuzzborne You have done nothing to defend how problematic it is to refuse to listen to the most recent training rather than the previous one
As far as I’m concerned this person will actively harm disabled people and people on the spectrum because of their refusal to adapt with the person they’re literally right in front of
So her motive is irrelevant-her propensity for harm due to stubbornly ignoring the people she’s supposed to respect is far more important
I don’t care what you think and as far as empathy goes why don’t you shove yourself up yourself first? Thanks-I won’t be replying to a POS like you should you waste both our time responding
You're the best Kaelynn keep it up!!
"Great. So you get how training works. It's good that we agree on that. And I'm sure you also know that training and standards get updated and improved over time. ... So, today we're at a training session, learning the latest, up to date best practice, which supercedes your old training.
I'm grateful for you sharing your experience of how things used to be done before we involved the people we're trying to serve as clients and learned to understand their choices values and feelings, but it's important to understand that you need to update your references to stay current. That's what today is for, so I'd suggest you look at this like a fresh start. Can you do that?
If you're still having problems let's chat at the end and I can link you with colleagues who are experienced in helping people with challenges around learning new things.
Ok, that last paragraph is venting but I own it.
I better myself as I say sometimes my daughter has autism and I agree here with Kaeylinn. My daughter is autistic. Or my autistic daughter. As a parent I am reasonably new on this matter and learn a lot about it and how to best support my autistic daughter and what I learn helps my autistic daughter enormously as it’s a positive difference between day and night from before her diagnosis and after her diagnosis. She is thriving and is much happier. So thank you Kaeylinn and others for sharing their experiences, knowledge and how parents and other people can support autistic people.
"Seperate the person from the disability" shyt! Didn't realise my autism was a pair of shoes i could take on and off
You handled it better than I would have! 😂
So I think the one thing that is being lost here is that this employee is likely worried that they might be fired for using "HR unapproved language", even if you are right.
(If you already didn't do so) It might go a long way to clear any suggested language updates with their higher ups, and then just tell them, "I have cleared this with your management, and this is what you should do now". Otherwise, I think your tact was awesome, and the right way to go about it. Thank you for the work you do!
From my personal experience the people who work in disability services are well meaning people who are underfunded and over worked with an unrealistic caseload that they are lucky to remember anyone’s name. Especially state provided services are lacking in many areas. The system has a long journey to make before it will actually help people.
From my experience working with disability workers, a significant number of them are communal narcissists. Those who aren't are rarely in a position of power. The most problematic ones tend to work for the government. It's worst for people with invisible disabilities like autism and C-PTSD. Many workers even aggravate things by not employing proper deescalation techniques.
As someone with C-PTSD, I actually feel safer with police officers than disability workers. It sounds ridiculous, but that's how it is. Cops have always treated me better. My worst experience with them is nowhere near as bad as the kind of treatment I received from healthcare professionals and disability workers. Considering their terrible reputation, which is warranted, it doesn't put the others in a good light.
I've volunteered to work with disabled people and I received constant praise. I received zero training. I just treated them like normal people, making sure they feel safe and comfortable. People should be trained to be empathetic, not follow inhuman protocols.
Well yeah but that’s not the same as the company’s HR’s outdated training seminar
In a professional setting, it’s the company that you need to change. Sometimes if caught not toeing the company line, there are bad outcomes. Many allistics won’t actually acknowledge this, and in context will just act like it’s their own point of view.
It’s not helpful behaviour but it can explain some people like this
I’ve met many people like this. They seem like they only know how to parrot back one thing, rather than seeking to understand the issue.
I just recently learned why our community prefers Autistic Person and it makes a lot of sense. This video explains it well in a short easy to understand way. :) Thanks
I think personal preference is key and checking in with someone to find out about language preferences should be the norm.
However, just to throw it out there, some people may only see the autism as part of their identity, and not want it to define them entirely. For example "I have been diagnosed with autism" may be preferable for someone who isnt 100% on board with the medical model
I understand where these people come from. There was a huge push many years ago to focus away from adjectives because they were usually used as or confused with slurs (think of the R word as the prime example). The thing is, we went too far and made the disabilities somewhat of a taboo, which ends up making disabled people invisible or look as lesser. It doesn't change the fact that professionals must update their understanding of things, but it's less annoying if we see it as a part of a normal historical process of resignifying disabilities as a whole.
"I'm not offending you. I'm following etiquette rules I was taught. I know you don't like it, but I'm right, and if you don't like it, then it's your fault."
When new information conflicts with my training, I will generally prefer to stick to my training, unless the new information is coming from a new training.
Though most people (in my experience) won't vocally push back when in this situation, they'll just appear to understand and capitulate while you're talking to them and keep their true feelings unchanged.
I'm just sad that in trying to "do my own research" I know now that I offended many people who didn't want to be burdened with explaining things to me, which is understandable. So I appreciate all your explanations 💖
Personally I'm a bit conflicted on what I prefer, but obviously the response or that other person was ridiculous 💀
If you don’t prefer either, that’s ok too. Personally I prefer “autistic person,” but switch constantly depending on how the sentence flows. :)
LOL! Am I wrong for enjoying this so much that I kinda want to see more "Disability Professional"?
Well, I also hate when they call autism a “disability” guess language is a matter of personal preference. It has downsides, but it gave me super senses among other things.
Once I went to a disability benefit assessment and I was asked, "How would you distinguish yourself from a normal person?" I responded by saying "whats normal?".
There's nothing wrong with someone saying "person with autism" as long as they're not telling everyone else to say that
I'm autistic and I think it's really annoying and trivial when people argue over use of language lol.
Oh my autism gets me hung up on semantics and analyzing how my wording is interpreted. Opposite of you lol. But that's why the topic is important to me.
@@Congiary I agree with OP. I will say: my neurodivergence gets me ridiculously obsessed with ridiculous minutia of analazing and categorizing things at times, including semantics. But sometimes I have to take a step back and recognize that I'm expending a lot of energy on something that doesn't actually matter that much. Intuitively it feels like it *should* matter because my brain cares so much about these distinctions, but it often doesn't.
"Question: are you more concerned that people in authority expect you to adhere to your training?"
There's obviously something else going on here.
WITH Autism sounds more like a disability than Autistic person. Its not that big a deal for me, but specifying with makes it sound like I shouldnt have it. It feel like something so obviously decided by a person who isnt experiencing it because they can't fathom actively indentifying with something they liken to a debilitation.
Thank you for explaining why saying “person with autism” could be seen in a negative light. I thought it was better to say it that way because “autistic person” made me feel like it was defining someone. Sometimes it seems people say “autistic person” in a demeaning way, so I didn’t think it was respectful to use that terminology.
famous comedian Ron White always said "You can't fix stupid"
Before I knew I myself was autistic I was in training as a worker and during the training I raised my hand and said that some people want to be called autistic and shouldn't it be dependent on each person's preference? The presenter said thid to me: if you have a client who calls himself "fatso" and said he wants to be called fatso and likes that term, it is the job of the professional to stand their own ground and not call the client a derogatory word just because that's what they want to be called.
I was horrified and felt embarassed among about 50 new workers at this agency's orientation week. I then went on to working at my specific campus and was harassed, threatened and bullied on the job. I lasted about a month until one morning in the middle of the work day I got up and walked out. This orientation was one week long in March 2019. I started the job in April and by May I had enough. Fast foreword to March 2024, I am now diagnosed with adhd and autism level 2.
I feel seen by you. Especially your talk about being perceived as rude. Something I've dealt with my whole life. You are also very beautiful.
I’m autistic, epileptic & right handed, so sick of people telling me I’M OFFENSIVE. *Don’t tell me how to define myself.* 🤬
I know the point is that autistic people overwhelmingly prefer autistic person to person with autism because they consider autism a part of their identity.
But it's an overgeneralization to say that's true of everyone with disability. It is quite common to encounter people who like that you treat them just like another person.
To me, the main problem with the disability advocate is an unwillingness to accept that not every disability is the same. The main rule is to be respectful and listen.
If they can't grasp that, how will they react when they find out different individuals may have different preferences? Like, while I'm a person with OCD, I do not mind OCD jokes. But others very much do.
I don't really care what people call me but to be honest no one would naturally say "person with... “ vs"... Person" and that seems more offensive and disingenuous than whatever they choose to call me. Other people don't define me.
I, as someone with autism, want to be called a person with autism. Someone else with autism/another autistic person might have a diferent prefrence. Please keep in mind that there is no right or wrong
I was struggling growing up in the 70s. In 2007 I was check with having autism and then answering al my question that I kept to myself.
"Autistic people prefer you to say, 'autistic people'."
"We were trained to say, 'person with autism', so that's what I say."
"You need to listen to what disabled people say."
"We were trained to say, 'person with autism', so that's what I say."
"Would you like a cup of tea?"
"We were trained to say, 'person with autism', so that's what I say."
I just dont get why anyone gets into the medical field with a personality like that. The lady in question can hear but shes not listening and i think thats a sign of bad medical practice. You need to always be willing to see new persepectives to fully help your patients, more vulnerable patients who struggle to expresss themselves. I get so mad when people are this set in their ways. I love listening to you talk it helps me work on how to express myself with coworkers and loved ones so much better. Thank you! 🎉
You rock, Kaelynn!
Book smarts is nice but those who actually do or live it are the best. You're doing great 👍
I'd tell her to say "Autistic person with autism." Sometimes it feels like we need an advocate to help us deal with the disability professionals.
Well... I describe myself as a person with autism, but that has probably mostly to do with me (and my family) finding it hard to acknowledge that I have autism. But that might also have something to do with a lack of understanding, even though I have been diagnosed with other labels (which are now included in the autism the spectrum) since I was 9. Long story short, due to a lack of support and knowledge during childhood and stereotypes like "but you are a girl" and "you don't look autistic", I am now (as a 30 yearold) getting support and learning about autism.
Also, in my country autistic person (aka "autist") in seen as a swearword. So yeah, that might also have something to with it.
The more you know.🌈
constructionism vs. essentialism is an argument that you're not gonna solve in your lifetime. that's just how it is. but i appreciate you trying.
I will say it can be confusing because I have heard both. I always respect whatever the individual/family prefers. And honestly we should just normalize asking how people prefer to be addressed on all ways.
Some people cant imagine altering their language to better accomodate another person's preferred method of labelling themselves. Im an autistic person but thankfully im not too affected by whatever anyone calls me even if they used outright offensive slurs... Thats a reflection on them, not me.
It’s like wearing glasses vs being nearsighted. Myopia is a normalized impairment that was historically a disability, it’s easier to understand due to it being everywhere.
Glasses are a tool used for accommodation like a fidget or headphones. I wear them: I am a person with glasses or wearing glasses not a glasses person. I can separate the glasses from myself taking them on and off. Underneath the glasses I am still nearsighted that doesn’t change.
Being nearsighted is a description that is physically within my body, just as autism is in the brain as a neurotype or neurological disorder. It is in someone’s genes to be autistic. I can’t easily change my brain like I could my eyes through surgery.
Back to the syntax or word order: you don’t say person with nearsightedness. You could say person with myopia, but you could also say myopic person.
Using myopia is a medical term meant more for doctors and paperwork vs average people and casual conversation. Like how I have myopia and autism spectrum disorder, thus I am a nearsighted autistic person.
You don’t go up to a kid with glasses and say they have myopia, you say they are nearsighted.
What you are vs what you have.
Also, just like there’s cis and trans, there’s allistic and autistic! I’m sure you know that, but I just wanna point it out.
Also also, I used have and with interchangeably. Using with feels more separated than have: person with autism vs person that has autism. The with feels like it refers to the diagnosis itself and not the condition to me. It makes me think of a person with a purse, an accessory, and I don’t carry my autism in a little purse.
Semantics and syntax are hard. I also dunno when to capitalize autism. I wish it were like Deaf, where capitalized means being apart of the community vs the state of being deaf. I’m hearing and studied ASL for nonverbal communication for myself and for my little sister who is nonverbal all the time as well as for Deaf people. I like the visual learning vs auditory learning.
Have a grand day!!! :D
As someone who also has glaucoma, I absolutely love this analogy.
So when I have to explain my autism for whatever reason. I'm actually going to use my glaucoma as the example.
You did a fabulous job making everything crystal clear.
A lot of these things are trends that change with the times and the social context. There was a big push in the aughts and maybe into the 2010s to use "person first language" for people with disabilities. In fact, look at the phrase I just used--"people with disabilities"--it's too many words/syllables compared to disabled people, which is what I grew up saying, but I was trained into the mouthful and it's what I still use. It's been a decade or two since I've read about the history, but I'm pretty sure that push came out of the disabled community, even though many disabilities are just as much a part of a person as myopia or autism are. Their point was that they found it dehumanizing to be identified with their disability, vs being a person first, who also has X. Actually, this same (silly IMO) thing is playing out in my own field, transportation planning, where we're now supposed to say "people walking" instead of pedestrians or walkers, "people cycling," "people driving," etc, even though it's a serious PITB to do so, because supposedly the person-first language is more likely to remind others that pedestrians are *people* and therefore we should care if they are hit by a car. I think that language is very important, and can certainly be used problematically and offensively. But the people with autism vs autistic people seems silly to me. Just as we can say "people with blond hair," "blond haired people", or just plain ol' "blonds" (or myopic people or people with myopia), it only changes the meaning to the small number of people who are over-analyzing it. To see what is actually respectful, you should look--as you did--at the language used for truly benign things, and for benign things both options are usually equally availble, people first or identity language, and which to use depends more an grammatical context and ease of use than anything else.
I've had more enlightening arguments with a brick wall.
I’ve had better ones on the toilet. I get it.
@@Kaelynnism 🤣
To be fair, there has been lots of disagreement over this over the years and some autistic people absolutely were (and to a lesser degree still are) advocates of person first language. Also, some other parts of the disabilty community still heavily favour this approach.
Obviously in general you just go with the majority and if in doubt just ask someone their preferences (and don't argue with those!).
This has serious "I'm so scared breaking the rules that I don't understand why the rules are there" vibes.
Wait a minute, *restrictive & inflexblible adherence to rules & guidelines*?
Hmm, the undiagnosed tism is strong with this one. 😮
🤣 she would’ve been so insulted if I said that but it’s an excellent point! 👏🏻
"its better to say *white person* rather than a *person with whiteness*! This is a fantastoc example to help others understamd and get with the times. Hot damn i love you! Xx
Yes as an autistic person it’s that logic from those that want to help that is so frustrating. They don’t want to change because they were trained that was the non offensive way of saying it, but when you say it’s offensive they say no it’s not it’s the non offensive way of saying it. I get the rigidity in thought as I have it as an autistic person but if you explain it to me I can change too often neurotypical can’t seem to chsnge
What part of offensive things are the things that cause offence is hard so for these people. NT won't change because in their heart of hearts they think they are the best and no one else matters.
@@silentlyjudgingyou I obviously did not communicate properly. As an Autistic person I don’t want to be marginalized by being called person with autism. However NTs can change but they don’t live in my shoes or our community so they look at it from their point of view and act in a way to avoid not be offensive but it’s offensive the way they treat us. Thus maybe they need to listen before they make their decisions
Yup seems about right, had some say to my face when i said “I’m an autist” they responded with “no no no you suffer from autism”😑
I had something similar happened to me when I became disabled. I am visually impaired and I was talking about being disabled and my advocate was like. No, we don't say that Word and I was like I am a cripple😂 And then she got my point.
I’m vibing with my autism way more than I’m ever “suffering” from it. Lol
Suffer 😭 It baffles me that they ASSUME someone "suffers from autism". No, the suffering here is because of those that didn't make the world welcoming enough to autistic people, NOT because of autism itself. What's worse is correcting the person on what they said about themselves and assuming how they feel... That's so weird
@@DeadVoxel Some people use "suffer with" as an all-purpose way of saying "you've been diagnosed with". It sort of reminds me of how the brits say that you've "fallen pregnant" or we say that you've "fallen ill". Falling has nothing to do with it, it's just a turn of phrase. I don't think "suffers with" is the best turn of phrase, but I also don't think use of that term implies that they are referring to anyone experiencing actual suffering.
@@erinm9445 ah, mayhaps. Thank you!
Though it definitely isn't the best way to put it, that is true
Honestly this is one their boss or colleagues need to step in and say hey you aren't listening and are causing a distribution by not listening to are advocate here take step back and deep breath this isn't a personal attack just because someone is correcting something widely told ( if someone had done this to me it would have saved me alot of embarrassment and no doubt other people alot of frustration)
I'm a person with Autism and I personally prefer the term "person with Autism" though I can definitely see how other people would prefer "Autistic person".
Edit: I don't have a strong preference either way here honestly.
Very good point. Also, not exactly parallel but it reminds me for example of some black women's advocacy groups (correctly) asking to call them exactly that: "black women". This is instead of "women of colour". As it in some contexts it is undermining the subject of the conversation. Same underlying principle: listen to the community, educate yourself and others, lean into the (often temporary) discomfort.
I am a person with Autism. I don't ever like to be called Autistic. I wish this wasn't a social issue at all because I have people identifying my disability the way I don't like, and I can't correct them in the moment. We should be advocating for differences, not a hard "identify this way" or the other.
I completely agree. This is madness.
I don't believe Kaelynn told anyone how to identify. I think her message was directed at neurotypicals and telling them that the safest thing to do is what the majority of affected people prefer. But I'm sure her central point about stubbornness entails adapting when you know the preferences of the person you're speaking with!
@@kaylab7685 It seems to me that the safest way to go is to know that different people will have different preferences.
Same. I consider my autism a condition that needs treated. I want to be able to vaccume without crying because of the sound. It feels weird to say I am my symptoms.
And God I hate when they just say "She's an autistic" but that's more of a grammar thing autistic isn't a noun.
Karlynn is a brilliant person.
I was trained to say "people with disabilities" instead of "disabled person": because it put the person first and put the emphasis on the human instead of the condition
I am visually impaired and I prefer to say I am disabled.
So in other words, "Im more interested in feeling like I do a good job than making sure I AM doing a good job." Huh. Go figure.
Exactly, that and she’s obviously not very bright
This has been my entire experience with the State of MN including the Autism Society here as an Adult. All Ableism and no help.
I love that, you have to pick one 🤣 You're 100% correct, that is, if you want to be a nice person. Someone who is stubborn and ignorant is just an asshole I think
I don’t want to fault all “Neurotypicals” with this because I know it’s not everyone, but their ability to follow certain rules without ever questioning them while ignoring others is amazingly frustrating to me. I always seem to value the things they don’t and vice versa. Rules are there for a reason but I will always put another persons well being over an arbitrary rule and that’s why I’ll be the best worker my bosses never wanted lmao