This is amazing! Maher is a staunch liberal and Miller is a Conservative but the 2 can get together and lobby against the PC idiots. Kudos to the both of them, standing up for free speech!
@@nunisthathigh4825 he’s just not left or crazy enough for you, huh? You guys talk a big talk, but when push comes to shove, you eat your own. Talk about being a hypocrite!!! 🤣🤣🤣
Nothing "nowadays" is any different than 30 years ago. The PC battle has been going on since the civil rights movement. It hasn't gotten worse or better, people just grow out of their childhood, discover it is going on, and believe it is some new thing. Watch a Hicks or Carlin in the 70's and 80's, they will tell you all about how "nowadays" PC has gone batshit crazy.
Sadly we go through this trend it seems every 15 to 20 years it will last for about 6 to ten long enough for them to graduate and learn how the real world works. I just wish we could speed up the process lol. Seems to be generally a back and forth between alt right and alt left ideologies each time and the rest of us are just banging our heads in the wall waiting until it ends.
@@OmegaRedFan I'm not ginna ask why you wanna have sex with an independent country. But I will judge your statement as coming from a racist xenophobe who's too much of a maverick for the GOP, but also too much of an outsider to be accepted by progressives. Desperation is a smelly cologne, and you reek!!!
These two need to put together a full College course (maybe HS to get to them early) on how to treat each view with respect, and have fun with it on debating. Made it mandatory to show people passed the course in HS to be able to go to College. Would love to see them even do a section in the course on how Debate training is done, where they have to debate on the opposite view they believe to walk in the others person's shoes. I would take that course and would not even ask it to be a Free course. I would pay to get a set of the DVD's. Wow, loved it . Wish it was 1-2 hours long. These two are probably in the top 1% of each end of all views, and have such a strong vocabulary; which of course make the HS students have homework where they would have to do a answer paper each night on some of the $20+ words and have to research people like Ray Charles .. sadly many of HS students would not even know who he is.
Political Correctness is the 'Socialist Tool' to Stifle American exceptionalism; Creativity and Innovation. To see these two gentlemen discussing it is possibly heartening. There may be hope for the resurgence of American Brass.
Even tho I fucking despise Maher to the max for absolutely no reasons other than his 'liberal vibe', I enjoyed this conversation and I do agree with a lot of shit he's saying. I think he milked those liberal views until a brief moment of clarity where he realized that not EVERYTHING the right is saying is dogshit. Take notes, kids.
+Tyrone Negroid I agree. I used to despise him but Im liking him much more now because he is a realist and he is honest with himself based on his knowledge or ignorance. I can see him one day coming over to the right side as we watch the liberal agenda destroy our world. This is a global movement not just a national one. Its happening in all free democratic nations. What makes us democratic is our free speech and ability to debate an issue. We are slowly seeing this erode away until we become a complete dictatorship. It seems this is what the left are consistently pushing towards on an international level. It amazes me just how organized this movement is.
***** I don't even know where I stand anymore. Bunch of crazy fucks on both sides. I think I'm somewhere in the middle, but definitely more on the right as I grow older. I enjoyed the old left. Back when it wasn't autistic as fuck. Nowadays, it's just too cringy.
***** I agree and the free speech issue is absolutely scary as fuck for everyone. It's like they want to live in some kind of utopia where everybody is nice to one another. People losing theirs jobs left and right for stupid comments. Sometime the right laugh about it and joke around calling the left nazis and in some twisted way, they are not that far off. The campus mentality is very weird. The feminist movement is also screwed as fuck. Racial issues also. Big Al is babbling on CNN like he isn't a fucking parody. I remember losing my shit at Fox News for their bias, but I kind of understand now why they exist. Comedians getting fucked for jokes... Man, I could go for hours.
***** Never actually read that book, but I understand the idea behind it. You're also right about UA-cam and the internet in general. I often read comments and I just can't fucking believe it. Maybe it's just youngsters behind a computer that mum bought, but I often feel like people are fucking retarded. Actually, I get the same feeling while reading news articles comments. It's not just the kids... People are actually retarded. You're probably the only sane person I've talked to in months. Isn't that fucking weird?
The day we censure one person for a viewpoint we do not like, we start down the path of censorship, which goes against our first amendment, of free speech. I agree with the video, that we need to be able to say what we think, with very few limitations on those views.
This was 15 years ago. We've had almost 4 classes of students go from college freshman to graduate in that time. This is no longer the latest political controversy; this has now become generational. Maher's comment at 5:12 concerning post-9/11 America is particularly prescient. Conformity has characterized our life since that day. This is in contrast to diversity, which is strange for some to consider because of the paradoxical complexity of post-9/11 conformity. Most people of my generation and younger think the 50s when they think of American conformity: the man in the grey flannel suit, Ozzie and Harriet, etc. I'm fond of thinking of this an arithmetic conformity in the sense that the standard one was expected to conform to was basic; the unquestioned standards had a rigidity in which people were expected to not question the basic order and outcome (thus the notion of this being arithmetic in the sense of everyone agreeing on 1 + 1 = 2, where the numbers symbolize set values). This was questioned prominently in the 60s, and thank goodness. By contrast, our present conformity is informed not only by the functional conformity of the 50s (where everyone was expected to conform to middle-class white standards) but also the *idea* of diversity associated with the 60s. It's Hegelian in that these two ideas have morphed into a new one. It's also algebraic rather than basically arithmetic: the verifiable rigidity of formula is deceptive due to the presence of diverse variables within that formula. 1 no longer has to be "1"; it can be "a" or "z" or "6". Pick any variable you want. Our new cultural conformity functions likewise: the outcome is still the same, whether or not you have two black people or two white people inserted as variables within the cultural "formula". Consider this example: if I had 10 bottles of exact same dimension but each was a different colored glass, those bottles would appear different at a glance. We would notice their color while ignoring the fact that they have the same structure. This exemplifies the way our cultural desire for diversity plays out, particularly in advertising and the popular arts. There's been such a lack of actual intellectual diversity in the popular arts - in the sense of a diversity of *ideas* - since 9/11 that it's been stultifying. In the 50s, if you watched television for even 5 minutes you would think everyone in the country was white and middle-class. But today, so much of what we watch in movie theaters, hear on streaming audio, and see on billboards shows a rainbow coalition of rich people. The American Dream writ large: people of all shades and colors who look like a million dollars. We took care of the race part, but the class part doesn't matter. And it all looks, sounds, and plays the same way. It's the same formula but with a new variable, a bland shaped bottled distinguished only by differences in color. And it's all designed to sell more bottles, not question the idea of the bottle itself. If you're an artistically creative person (*irrespective* of race, religion, sexuality, etc) who is truly interested in original ideas, this is not a good time to be alive in America. By contrast, if you're an artistically vapid person (*irrespective* of race, religion, sexuality, etc) who is truly interested in dogmatism, this is *your* time. This is also why so many people from the boomer generation - white, black, gay, or straight, by the way - look at the present generation and shake their heads in disagreement. This sort of rigid thinking is what people fought *against* and questioned in the 60s. And it's worse than the 50s because it's more insidious. As George Carlin brilliantly put it "political correctness is America's newest form of intolerance, and it is especially pernicious because it comes disguised as tolerance." The point is that our contemporary notions of diversity are inherently conservative, not in the political sense of that term, but in the cultural sense. We can't help but go for what is safe in spite of ourselves, and that extends to the present discourses on race, sexuality, religion, free speech, etc. In reality, people and their ideas are not like those bottles: they are different colors, true - but they are also different shapes and sizes. In other words, the new conformity is just as stultifying as the old (read "50s") conformity. You're expected to behave a certain way, use a certain vocabulary, and to question the dominant popular culture means you must be "intolerant" or a "hater". To contend that Beyonce or Lady Gaga are trite means you're sexist or racist, that Justin Timberlake has no talent means you espouse traditional views of masculinity, and that there hasn't been anything new in popular music since grunge means you're an old white guy. The new conformity has a conservative formula with liberal variables, and the more people glorify it as solving the world's problems, the dumber those college graduates and the rest of us will continue to get...
So I read it word for word. First few paragraphs read quite confusingly. But you managed to pull it all together by the end. As Dennis might say with his patent head wiggle, well done babe. Interesting to read this four years later on. I tend to agree with … well with pretty much everything you’ve written here. I always looked at the 50’s as the age of conformity. But as I’ve come into my late 30’s and 40’s, and as I’ve moved back to the US after more than a decade away during that chapter in my life, I’ve come to absolutely see this as the second modern age of conformity. Sadly, it’s only gotten worse over the time that has elapsed since you wrote your comment here. And it’s certainly grown ever more pernicious. The only diversity that seems to exist now on the thought spectrum (at least in so far as mainstream media would have us believe) is the left and the right. And there is a certain conformity that comes along with both. Strange as it may be, PC culture is not owned or monopolized by the left. There is a right wing version of it too now. If one were to say that Donald Trump was a joke of a president who absolutely did lose a free and fair election, whether you hold traditional conservative views and tend to vote Republican or not, you have committed a cardinal sin in the eyes of the modern right. They’ll throw you out or chew you up for not being faithful to the cause. They’ll call you a beltway Republican and shun you for your lack of patriotism or a spine. If you don’t believe the Q Anon conspiracies or care to wear a mask for fear of catching a potentially life-threatening disease, you’re off the fucking team and you better watch your ass on the way out to the parking lot. Furthermore, PC culture also does not reflect the ideals of the left. Gone are the days when the idea of being politically correct was to right wrongs and create a more free and fair society. Today being politically correct entails uprooting (read creating) problems where one may not have ever been and usually no longer exists. It is somehow now virtuous to look deep into someone’s past and call out even the most minor of indiscretions they may have committed in order to prop up some cause for the woke. The left no longer seeks to allow for change and personal growth - the idea that people can become better versions of themselves as they grow and learn and experience life - but that if you are not and have not always been perfect, you are and always will be flawed beyond reconciliation or forgiveness. The mentality that seemed to prevail once on the so called left or progressive aisle of American culture - that you may have been lost and mired in the muck of bigotry or racism or whatever ill conceived way of thinking, but you can change and we can become brethren and make the world better together - has eroded into near non-existence. The inclusivity that seemed inherent in that way of thinking has become a sort of exclusivity on steroids, wherein you either see the world exactly as they do or you are out, full stop. I remember growing up and seeing the radical Christian Right behaving this way by publicly decrying homosexuality and driving steam rollers over the local Sam Goody’s entire inventory of gangsta rap cd’s. Now the so called progressives have pulled up alongside. Their steamrollers obviously run on lithium cells instead of propane, and they’re running over careers and livelihoods now instead of cd’s, but it’s still a race to the finish. The free thinkers are now the silent ones. We don’t affiliate with a party (I think in many cases, they both make us ashamed), we don’t want our careers ended, and we don’t want to get on the wrong side of our neighbor who can’t seem to shut up about how many guns he owns. I think there are actually many of us. We live in a world where our days are filled with nuance. We try to enjoy a meaningless and yet civil or even entertaining conversation with people we know don’t share our opinions because that’s actually healthy and normal. We educate ourselves on issues and recognize the more we learn, the more we realize how fucking little we actually know. We are patriotic in the sense that the ideals this country is supposed to strive to represent - democracy, free speech, hard work is the way to achieve goals, all are welcome to contribute, what you do in your life is your business as long as you don’t hurt someone else, etc. And just to reiterate… FREE SPEECH. Doesn’t matter how dumb. That’s what this country is supposed to uphold. We can begrudgingly let the woke if this world co-opt terms like liberalism and progressivism for themselves. We know where we stand on those issues. We know where they stand: ironically close to the increasingly radical right - anything but actually liberal. We don’t call ourselves “center” because that could easily imply a mixture of both. And really, what is cat shit mixed with dog shit at the end of the day? It’s shit! We’re not buying what either side is selling at this point. We want to plot a new trajectory. But it’s a scary thing. We know what traditionally happens to those who do so. That kind of thing was made very clear to us after the last age of conformity. So what to do???? Boy, what a difference 4 years makes, huh babe?
Scott Wood him and miller are vastly different these days, if both had remained like Carlin with comedy first and political pundits second it would have served them both better. I still check on both because I'm a huge fan of both but they seem to have cynical and angry about politics and thus the jokes have now became weapons for their poltical causes as opposed to satire about the absurdity of politics in general. I'm a comedy fan first and foremost, so if I had to be 100% honest I think both trying to transition into pundits have hurt their comedy and view of things.
+J1E2TS Good idea. There are times when Bill has said some VERY asinine things--usually partisan politically-speaking--to where I curse him. But then there are a number of times where he'll say something that I wholeheartedly agree with him, so I've learned to take the good and bad with Bill. Dennis I almost always agree with, but if this segment is any indication, having a regular sit-down with just Bill and Dennis would be all-around brilliant, witty, and funny. If a show with only the two of them were to come to fruition (though I doubt it'll happen), then I'd consider it "must-see" TV.
He sounds more like a left libertarian than conservative. His argument revolves around liberty but doesn’t seem to be interested in conserving any particular values. The only notion of conservation is the yearning for times when society wasn’t as “PC”.
Does no one understand what free speech means? A private organization like a college cannot infringe on your free speech, and individuals expressing their distaste for your expression is an expression of free speech. Unless you are being arrested or fined by the government, your free speech is not being infringed. Someone is allowed to protest against you or ask you to shut up. A company or organization firing you because they don't like your speech? That's a form of their expression. That is not infringement of free speech by the government.
+Book Forge But you don't have a right to get paid large sums of money to perform your comedy act at a college or any other venue (despite the fact that comedians such as Maher and Miller seem to act as though they do). That's why this isn't a free speech issue (at least in any kind of legal/constitutional sense).
+Charles Andresen-Reed Billions of Federal dollars fund colleges (publicly funded), so they are not private. It is one thing to protest and disapprove using free speech to do it, but when people disrupt someone's free speech by setting off fire alarms, blowing horns and/or have speeches outright cancelled, it is censoring and not allowing to be heard opposing ideas. This leads to conformity to and acceptance of the approved narrative, without an opportunity to hear other ideas, strategies etc. Let the bad ideas collapse in an open market of debate. If someone disagrees with you, sure they can protest, but if they effectively silence you and squash the platform to share your ideas, they have blocked EVERYBODY from hearing you and have effectively inhibited free speech.
***** yea that may be true but ethically and morally and logically if we want to move forward and become a better society than people shouting over and blocking me from speaking is petty and childish and won't be a catalyst for a good debate. Also if you've heard or not about the University "safe space" where students were in what you say is okay, blocking and shouting so the reporter can't do his job. I mean if this is the society you want to live in, I don't want to be a part of it. What do you think the biggest difference between us and North Korea. Freedom and one of those freedoms is the freedom of speech
It is good that these two guys (with differing viewpoints) can come together to discuss a problem. We need to do more of this--to try at least understand where other people are coming from, even if there are disagreements--I think we would find areas of agreements on some issues. The Right and the Left groups are not monoliths--there is a whole spectrum of opinions and freedom of speech is crucially important.
I have UW-Madison to thank for WAKING ME UP back in '74. A crazy professor demanded we believe that machines had souls! Worse grade I got, because of it, but I held my own.
These two crack me up so bad. I don't agree with Bill Maher on anything just about.... BUT I love watching him because he is one of the best dry comedians I have ever seen. I do not get offended or need a safe space just because he makes fun of my religion or anything else. The guy is funny, it's called COMEDY. It used to be ok to laugh at yourself.
Dennis Miller is fuckin great when he does monologues. And he’s spot on about letting the Klan march through your town. The dumber the idea, the louder I want it shouted. Makes the idiots easier to identify.
By the way, I’m on the WATCH LIST, and I’m a Combat Marine who has served 5 tours and spent 20 years working INTEL as a United States Marine. The last time I went through the airport, SMOKEY ROBINSON was also with me and said he’s been on the watch list since he can recall. I’m going on 8 years and I had so many HIGH RANKING GENERALS write on my behalf, but still to no avail. I just take it as a joke and why get upset. It’s NOT going to change my status. Why I’m on it, I have NO IDEA.
+The_Dailey on Twitter and +Sandro Kovalev The mistake allot of people make is to think that there is only one type of political leftist. I'm a leftist, but i'm sure as hell not (what some call) a "regressive leftist". Regressive left is basically SJW's and the sort.
+The_Dailey on Twitter Yeah, Maher falls on different sides of the aisle on different issues. I tend to prescribe more to the Libertarian viewpoints although sometimes I agree with dems and sometimes with conservatives. I can never understand people that simply "toe the party line" for no other reason that they feel obligated to.
Splendid banter! There comments have now become even more the rule as we slide sideways with too many hands on the wheel and no one looking at the road..
Wow, now that is true. The 1970 college graduated Social just warriors went nuts. Now the TSA gets go scared that a blind man named Ray Charles is checked.
How to tell the difference between Miller and Maher: people laugh *_with_* Miller. ;) However it is nice to see Maher and Miller fully behind our rights to free speech.
''people worried about whether we can criticize our government no the problem is not that we criticize too much its conformity we have too conformity so many people after September 11th shut down thinking they went right from emotional hurt to oblivious'' Perfectly describing Dennis Miller it really is sad what the guy has become today here in this early 2000's interview he decries political correctness but today he gets triggered by Michelle Wolf's Jokes.
I hate Bill Maher, but he’s RIGHT ON. And in his film he is the ONLY person I ever saw mention MUSLIMS, when everyone only goes after Jesus. I respect him for that!
not giving someone a platform to speak on or disagreeing is not censorship, BUT taking away someones platform and ability to speak, like pulling a fire alarm or severe heckling at an event other people want to attend IS censorship. there, solved it for you :*
my son is 40...a masters degree at 26...he said conservative thought back then was even more restricted than today. the university mileue was undeniably left leaning and unobstructedly biased against any form of dissent. However---only conservative dissent is restricted. sad. however Miller's insanely funny and riotous satire hooked up with Maher??? priceless.
I find myself in disagreement with Maher often, I also respect him for often taking the opposite position to many issues which much of the left hold dear. He ruffles feathers on each side of the bird!
This is a subject that has been simmering since the late 1980's. The movie PCU made shit out of PC in the early 1990's and it's a subject that is rearing its head again. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
This is amazing! Maher is a staunch liberal and Miller is a Conservative but the 2 can get together and lobby against the PC idiots. Kudos to the both of them, standing up for free speech!
@@nunisthathigh4825 he’s just not left or crazy enough for you, huh? You guys talk a big talk, but when push comes to shove, you eat your own. Talk about being a hypocrite!!! 🤣🤣🤣
Exactly 💯
They are really not that different
Summed up in the final few seconds: "People like sensitivity more than they like truth in America."
exactly a fragile society is doomed to break.and p.c.political bullshit from the left will speed up the inevitable.
I like Bill & Dennis. And they're right. Political Correctness is dangerous and destructive. Thank you for posting.
Malcolm Nicoll BILLS A DOUCHE BAGS WASTE !!😂👽🖕
Her I am at Feb 2016 finding this even more relevant. These universities have gone batshit crazy nowadays.
Nothing "nowadays" is any different than 30 years ago. The PC battle has been going on since the civil rights movement. It hasn't gotten worse or better, people just grow out of their childhood, discover it is going on, and believe it is some new thing. Watch a Hicks or Carlin in the 70's and 80's, they will tell you all about how "nowadays" PC has gone batshit crazy.
what can I say?it's Feb 2017!
oogity-boogity woogity think of how much worse it's gotten...
Says the clown mind you!
Sadly we go through this trend it seems every 15 to 20 years it will last for about 6 to ten long enough for them to graduate and learn how the real world works. I just wish we could speed up the process lol. Seems to be generally a back and forth between alt right and alt left ideologies each time and the rest of us are just banging our heads in the wall waiting until it ends.
I've always wanted to see these two talk.
Amazing how relevant this video still is 14 years later. Not much has changed.
5 years later and it's even worse, holy shit...
@@doddsino yep this issue is pretty disturbing at the moment.
Passing of the torch. Love both Dennis and Bill.
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IS SHARIA LAW.
It's not even a real law.
@Nicholas Pagano fuck trump and fuck israel.
@@OmegaRedFan I'm not ginna ask why you wanna have sex with an independent country. But I will judge your statement as coming from a racist xenophobe who's too much of a maverick for the GOP, but also too much of an outsider to be accepted by progressives. Desperation is a smelly cologne, and you reek!!!
You're a fucking idiot.
These two need to put together a full College course (maybe HS to get to them early) on how to treat each view with respect, and have fun with it on debating. Made it mandatory to show people passed the course in HS to be able to go to College. Would love to see them even do a section in the course on how Debate training is done, where they have to debate on the opposite view they believe to walk in the others person's shoes. I would take that course and would not even ask it to be a Free course. I would pay to get a set of the DVD's. Wow, loved it . Wish it was 1-2 hours long. These two are probably in the top 1% of each end of all views, and have such a strong vocabulary; which of course make the HS students have homework where they would have to do a answer paper each night on some of the $20+ words and have to research people like Ray Charles .. sadly many of HS students would not even know who he is.
Swap Maher for John Stewart and it's a go.
Political Correctness is the 'Socialist Tool' to Stifle American exceptionalism; Creativity and Innovation. To see these two gentlemen discussing it is possibly heartening. There may be hope for the resurgence of American Brass.
Even tho I fucking despise Maher to the max for absolutely no reasons other than his 'liberal vibe', I enjoyed this conversation and I do agree with a lot of shit he's saying. I think he milked those liberal views until a brief moment of clarity where he realized that not EVERYTHING the right is saying is dogshit. Take notes, kids.
+Tyrone Negroid I agree. I used to despise him but Im liking him much more now because he is a realist and he is honest with himself based on his knowledge or ignorance. I can see him one day coming over to the right side as we watch the liberal agenda destroy our world. This is a global movement not just a national one. Its happening in all free democratic nations. What makes us democratic is our free speech and ability to debate an issue. We are slowly seeing this erode away until we become a complete dictatorship. It seems this is what the left are consistently pushing towards on an international level.
It amazes me just how organized this movement is.
RebelThoughts82
You should take a look at the Left with all their "micro-agressions". You'll know the true meaning of being full of shit.
*****
I don't even know where I stand anymore. Bunch of crazy fucks on both sides. I think I'm somewhere in the middle, but definitely more on the right as I grow older.
I enjoyed the old left. Back when it wasn't autistic as fuck. Nowadays, it's just too cringy.
*****
I agree and the free speech issue is absolutely scary as fuck for everyone. It's like they want to live in some kind of utopia where everybody is nice to one another. People losing theirs jobs left and right for stupid comments. Sometime the right laugh about it and joke around calling the left nazis and in some twisted way, they are not that far off.
The campus mentality is very weird. The feminist movement is also screwed as fuck. Racial issues also. Big Al is babbling on CNN like he isn't a fucking parody.
I remember losing my shit at Fox News for their bias, but I kind of understand now why they exist.
Comedians getting fucked for jokes... Man, I could go for hours.
*****
Never actually read that book, but I understand the idea behind it. You're also right about UA-cam and the internet in general. I often read comments and I just can't fucking believe it. Maybe it's just youngsters behind a computer that mum bought, but I often feel like people are fucking retarded. Actually, I get the same feeling while reading news articles comments. It's not just the kids... People are actually retarded. You're probably the only sane person I've talked to in months. Isn't that fucking weird?
HOLY SHIT!!! i NEVER THOGHT i WOULD LIKE TO LISTEN TO BILL MAHER, UNTIL NOW
The day we censure one person for a viewpoint we do not like, we start down the path of censorship, which goes against our first amendment, of free speech. I agree with the video, that we need to be able to say what we think, with very few limitations on those views.
March 2019 - I just found this on Amazon Prime Video: Dennis Miller: Fake News, Real Jokes from 2018. The trailer actually looks good.
This was 15 years ago. We've had almost 4 classes of students go from college freshman to graduate in that time. This is no longer the latest political controversy; this has now become generational.
Maher's comment at 5:12 concerning post-9/11 America is particularly prescient. Conformity has characterized our life since that day. This is in contrast to diversity, which is strange for some to consider because of the paradoxical complexity of post-9/11 conformity.
Most people of my generation and younger think the 50s when they think of American conformity: the man in the grey flannel suit, Ozzie and Harriet, etc. I'm fond of thinking of this an arithmetic conformity in the sense that the standard one was expected to conform to was basic; the unquestioned standards had a rigidity in which people were expected to not question the basic order and outcome (thus the notion of this being arithmetic in the sense of everyone agreeing on 1 + 1 = 2, where the numbers symbolize set values). This was questioned prominently in the 60s, and thank goodness.
By contrast, our present conformity is informed not only by the functional conformity of the 50s (where everyone was expected to conform to middle-class white standards) but also the *idea* of diversity associated with the 60s. It's Hegelian in that these two ideas have morphed into a new one. It's also algebraic rather than basically arithmetic: the verifiable rigidity of formula is deceptive due to the presence of diverse variables within that formula. 1 no longer has to be "1"; it can be "a" or "z" or "6". Pick any variable you want. Our new cultural conformity functions likewise: the outcome is still the same, whether or not you have two black people or two white people inserted as variables within the cultural "formula".
Consider this example: if I had 10 bottles of exact same dimension but each was a different colored glass, those bottles would appear different at a glance. We would notice their color while ignoring the fact that they have the same structure.
This exemplifies the way our cultural desire for diversity plays out, particularly in advertising and the popular arts. There's been such a lack of actual intellectual diversity in the popular arts - in the sense of a diversity of *ideas* - since 9/11 that it's been stultifying. In the 50s, if you watched television for even 5 minutes you would think everyone in the country was white and middle-class. But today, so much of what we watch in movie theaters, hear on streaming audio, and see on billboards shows a rainbow coalition of rich people. The American Dream writ large: people of all shades and colors who look like a million dollars. We took care of the race part, but the class part doesn't matter. And it all looks, sounds, and plays the same way. It's the same formula but with a new variable, a bland shaped bottled distinguished only by differences in color. And it's all designed to sell more bottles, not question the idea of the bottle itself. If you're an artistically creative person (*irrespective* of race, religion, sexuality, etc) who is truly interested in original ideas, this is not a good time to be alive in America. By contrast, if you're an artistically vapid person (*irrespective* of race, religion, sexuality, etc) who is truly interested in dogmatism, this is *your* time.
This is also why so many people from the boomer generation - white, black, gay, or straight, by the way - look at the present generation and shake their heads in disagreement. This sort of rigid thinking is what people fought *against* and questioned in the 60s. And it's worse than the 50s because it's more insidious. As George Carlin brilliantly put it "political correctness is America's newest form of intolerance, and it is especially pernicious because it comes disguised as tolerance."
The point is that our contemporary notions of diversity are inherently conservative, not in the political sense of that term, but in the cultural sense. We can't help but go for what is safe in spite of ourselves, and that extends to the present discourses on race, sexuality, religion, free speech, etc. In reality, people and their ideas are not like those bottles: they are different colors, true - but they are also different shapes and sizes. In other words, the new conformity is just as stultifying as the old (read "50s") conformity. You're expected to behave a certain way, use a certain vocabulary, and to question the dominant popular culture means you must be "intolerant" or a "hater". To contend that Beyonce or Lady Gaga are trite means you're sexist or racist, that Justin Timberlake has no talent means you espouse traditional views of masculinity, and that there hasn't been anything new in popular music since grunge means you're an old white guy.
The new conformity has a conservative formula with liberal variables, and the more people glorify it as solving the world's problems, the dumber those college graduates and the rest of us will continue to get...
So I read it word for word. First few paragraphs read quite confusingly. But you managed to pull it all together by the end. As Dennis might say with his patent head wiggle, well done babe.
Interesting to read this four years later on. I tend to agree with … well with pretty much everything you’ve written here. I always looked at the 50’s as the age of conformity. But as I’ve come into my late 30’s and 40’s, and as I’ve moved back to the US after more than a decade away during that chapter in my life, I’ve come to absolutely see this as the second modern age of conformity. Sadly, it’s only gotten worse over the time that has elapsed since you wrote your comment here. And it’s certainly grown ever more pernicious.
The only diversity that seems to exist now on the thought spectrum (at least in so far as mainstream media would have us believe) is the left and the right. And there is a certain conformity that comes along with both. Strange as it may be, PC culture is not owned or monopolized by the left. There is a right wing version of it too now. If one were to say that Donald Trump was a joke of a president who absolutely did lose a free and fair election, whether you hold traditional conservative views and tend to vote Republican or not, you have committed a cardinal sin in the eyes of the modern right. They’ll throw you out or chew you up for not being faithful to the cause. They’ll call you a beltway Republican and shun you for your lack of patriotism or a spine. If you don’t believe the Q Anon conspiracies or care to wear a mask for fear of catching a potentially life-threatening disease, you’re off the fucking team and you better watch your ass on the way out to the parking lot.
Furthermore, PC culture also does not reflect the ideals of the left. Gone are the days when the idea of being politically correct was to right wrongs and create a more free and fair society. Today being politically correct entails uprooting (read creating) problems where one may not have ever been and usually no longer exists. It is somehow now virtuous to look deep into someone’s past and call out even the most minor of indiscretions they may have committed in order to prop up some cause for the woke. The left no longer seeks to allow for change and personal growth - the idea that people can become better versions of themselves as they grow and learn and experience life - but that if you are not and have not always been perfect, you are and always will be flawed beyond reconciliation or forgiveness. The mentality that seemed to prevail once on the so called left or progressive aisle of American culture - that you may have been lost and mired in the muck of bigotry or racism or whatever ill conceived way of thinking, but you can change and we can become brethren and make the world better together - has eroded into near non-existence. The inclusivity that seemed inherent in that way of thinking has become a sort of exclusivity on steroids, wherein you either see the world exactly as they do or you are out, full stop. I remember growing up and seeing the radical Christian Right behaving this way by publicly decrying homosexuality and driving steam rollers over the local Sam Goody’s entire inventory of gangsta rap cd’s. Now the so called progressives have pulled up alongside. Their steamrollers obviously run on lithium cells instead of propane, and they’re running over careers and livelihoods now instead of cd’s, but it’s still a race to the finish.
The free thinkers are now the silent ones. We don’t affiliate with a party (I think in many cases, they both make us ashamed), we don’t want our careers ended, and we don’t want to get on the wrong side of our neighbor who can’t seem to shut up about how many guns he owns. I think there are actually many of us. We live in a world where our days are filled with nuance. We try to enjoy a meaningless and yet civil or even entertaining conversation with people we know don’t share our opinions because that’s actually healthy and normal. We educate ourselves on issues and recognize the more we learn, the more we realize how fucking little we actually know. We are patriotic in the sense that the ideals this country is supposed to strive to represent - democracy, free speech, hard work is the way to achieve goals, all are welcome to contribute, what you do in your life is your business as long as you don’t hurt someone else, etc. And just to reiterate… FREE SPEECH. Doesn’t matter how dumb. That’s what this country is supposed to uphold. We can begrudgingly let the woke if this world co-opt terms like liberalism and progressivism for themselves. We know where we stand on those issues. We know where they stand: ironically close to the increasingly radical right - anything but actually liberal. We don’t call ourselves “center” because that could easily imply a mixture of both. And really, what is cat shit mixed with dog shit at the end of the day? It’s shit! We’re not buying what either side is selling at this point. We want to plot a new trajectory. But it’s a scary thing. We know what traditionally happens to those who do so. That kind of thing was made very clear to us after the last age of conformity. So what to do????
Boy, what a difference 4 years makes, huh babe?
And new rules come disguised as " for your safety." The jab was about obedience, the height of conformity imbo
I wish hbo would have bill and dennis on a show every week debating, talking out issues and telling jokes all while fucking with their guests.
J1E2TS where did this Bill Maher go ???
Scott Wood him and miller are vastly different these days, if both had remained like Carlin with comedy first and political pundits second it would have served them both better. I still check on both because I'm a huge fan of both but they seem to have cynical and angry about politics and thus the jokes have now became weapons for their poltical causes as opposed to satire about the absurdity of politics in general. I'm a comedy fan first and foremost, so if I had to be 100% honest I think both trying to transition into pundits have hurt their comedy and view of things.
+J1E2TS Good idea. There are times when Bill has said some VERY asinine things--usually partisan politically-speaking--to where I curse him. But then there are a number of times where he'll say something that I wholeheartedly agree with him, so I've learned to take the good and bad with Bill.
Dennis I almost always agree with, but if this segment is any indication, having a regular sit-down with just Bill and Dennis would be all-around brilliant, witty, and funny. If a show with only the two of them were to come to fruition (though I doubt it'll happen), then I'd consider it "must-see" TV.
I LOVE Bill Maher! I used to LOVE Dennis Miller. His show was great. Then he went right wing. But he was great. Bill is the best!
I can't believe how conservative Bill sounds in this whole clip. I'd like to see that guy come back
He sounds more like a left libertarian than conservative. His argument revolves around liberty but doesn’t seem to be interested in conserving any particular values. The only notion of conservation is the yearning for times when society wasn’t as “PC”.
Does no one understand what free speech means? A private organization like a college cannot infringe on your free speech, and individuals expressing their distaste for your expression is an expression of free speech. Unless you are being arrested or fined by the government, your free speech is not being infringed. Someone is allowed to protest against you or ask you to shut up. A company or organization firing you because they don't like your speech? That's a form of their expression. That is not infringement of free speech by the government.
+Book Forge But you don't have a right to get paid large sums of money to perform your comedy act at a college or any other venue (despite the fact that comedians such as Maher and Miller seem to act as though they do). That's why this isn't a free speech issue (at least in any kind of legal/constitutional sense).
And that bitching is an example of those college students exercising their freedom of speech, not infringing on Maher or Miller's.
+Charles Andresen-Reed Billions of Federal dollars fund colleges (publicly funded), so they are not private. It is one thing to protest and disapprove using free speech to do it, but when people disrupt someone's free speech by setting off fire alarms, blowing horns and/or have speeches outright cancelled, it is censoring and not allowing to be heard opposing ideas. This leads to conformity to and acceptance of the approved narrative, without an opportunity to hear other ideas, strategies etc. Let the bad ideas collapse in an open market of debate. If someone disagrees with you, sure they can protest, but if they effectively silence you and squash the platform to share your ideas, they have blocked EVERYBODY from hearing you and have effectively inhibited free speech.
***** censoring people's free speech does infringe on people's free speech
***** yea that may be true but ethically and morally and logically if we want to move forward and become a better society than people shouting over and blocking me from speaking is petty and childish and won't be a catalyst for a good debate. Also if you've heard or not about the University "safe space" where students were in what you say is okay, blocking and shouting so the reporter can't do his job. I mean if this is the society you want to live in, I don't want to be a part of it. What do you think the biggest difference between us and North Korea. Freedom and one of those freedoms is the freedom of speech
Dennis Miller and Bill Maher on the same show, how long ago was this? 2 of my favorite comedians/social commentators.
Great topic. Great discussion. Thanks for posting.
4 years lately and this shows up on my list......in had to check the date because I thought it was recent!
It is good that these two guys (with differing viewpoints) can come together to discuss a problem. We need to do more of this--to try at least understand where other people are coming from, even if there are disagreements--I think we would find areas of agreements on some issues. The Right and the Left groups are not monoliths--there is a whole spectrum of opinions and freedom of speech is crucially important.
I love Bill Maher! He is one of my life's hero's. Right up there w Hitchens.❤
correct
Maher isn’t fit to carry Hitchens’s liver
I think these 2 political comedians gave each other a wide birth so that the audience would appreciate their differences without the hate.
Two smart people having a minor disagreement and talking it out.
PC is censorship.
worth watching today.....i think this is the most important clip in the whole history of this show
I used to like Miller! he's done a political about-face in recent years! I do agree with this video
ANY student who shuts down critical debate with terroristic screaming and name calling should be instantly expelled.
"People like sensitivity more than truth in this country." -Maher
I have UW-Madison to thank for WAKING ME UP back in '74. A crazy professor demanded we believe that machines had souls! Worse grade I got, because of it, but I held my own.
When was this on the air OMG it looks old!? That would make this more amazing in our current climate.
love this man. speak truth. always.
+bookwormsurfer Thanks, Tonto.
These two crack me up so bad. I don't agree with Bill Maher on anything just about.... BUT I love watching him because he is one of the best dry comedians I have ever seen. I do not get offended or need a safe space just because he makes fun of my religion or anything else. The guy is funny, it's called COMEDY. It used to be ok to laugh at yourself.
Dennis Miller is fuckin great when he does monologues. And he’s spot on about letting the Klan march through your town. The dumber the idea, the louder I want it shouted. Makes the idiots easier to identify.
Wow! You really have to go waaay back to find a time when both Bill Maher and Dennis Miller were still funny and relevant!
+Brock Landers so you like Mahar
By the way, I’m on the WATCH LIST, and I’m a Combat Marine who has served 5 tours and spent 20 years working INTEL as a United States Marine. The last time I went through the airport, SMOKEY ROBINSON was also with me and said he’s been on the watch list since he can recall. I’m going on 8 years and I had so many HIGH RANKING GENERALS write on my behalf, but still to no avail. I just take it as a joke and why get upset. It’s NOT going to change my status. Why I’m on it, I have NO IDEA.
Brilliant stuff...
I'd vote for Dennis as President....Common sense is very rare.
Youd think Maher was a conservative watching this.
+The_Dailey on Twitter Watch his HBO show, he's no lefty liberal (although he likes to bash the right).
+The_Dailey on Twitter and +Sandro Kovalev
The mistake allot of people make is to think that there is only one type of political leftist. I'm a leftist, but i'm sure as hell not (what some call) a "regressive leftist". Regressive left is basically SJW's and the sort.
+The_Dailey on Twitter Yeah, Maher falls on different sides of the aisle on different issues. I tend to prescribe more to the Libertarian viewpoints although sometimes I agree with dems and sometimes with conservatives. I can never understand people that simply "toe the party line" for no other reason that they feel obligated to.
Splendid banter! There comments have now become even more the rule as we slide sideways with too many hands on the wheel and no one looking at the road..
I enjoy the debate with humor it takes the edge off being of different opinions. Lets enjoy our differences and become serious at the ballot box.
You're right, Dennis. You would have to sneak up on your right hand to get any action.
This is the Denis Leary and Bill Maher I like.
Look kids, a Liberal and a Conservative having a conversation!!
"Give war a chance"?! That's hysterical!
Bill Maher got me to point a finger at him, and luckily it wasn't the middle one. Good job Maher
Both men are very intelligent, but Dennis Miller's IQ has to be off the charts. Miller's mind is 1,000 miles a minute FASTER than Maher's.
and its not even close!!
Wow, now that is true. The 1970 college graduated Social just warriors went nuts.
Now the TSA gets go scared that a blind man named Ray Charles is checked.
How to tell the difference between Miller and Maher: people laugh *_with_* Miller. ;) However it is nice to see Maher and Miller fully behind our rights to free speech.
2:51 LMAO He just described youtube's comment section _(And the internet in general)_ perfectly!
I wonder if Dennis Miller knew that he was interviewing with his HBO successor?
Two guys diametrically opposed politically are able to sit down and have an interesting, thoughtful conversation. Imagine that.
''people worried about whether we can criticize our government no the problem is not that we criticize too much its conformity we have too conformity so many people after September 11th shut down thinking they went right from emotional hurt to oblivious'' Perfectly describing Dennis Miller it really is sad what the guy has become today here in this early 2000's interview he decries political correctness but today he gets triggered by Michelle Wolf's Jokes.
what year was this recorded?
only thing two things i have ever agreed with bill maher but thank you for saying this
I hate Bill Maher, but he’s RIGHT ON. And in his film he is the ONLY person I ever saw mention MUSLIMS, when everyone only goes after Jesus. I respect him for that!
Wow how long ago was this interview???
What year was this ?
Could somebody post Denny's full episodes?
Bill's just vamping his stand-up act.
I've always thought Miller was cornball...but, he is right on this.
more people should watch this.so many good points
good points love it
not giving someone a platform to speak on or disagreeing is not censorship, BUT taking away someones platform and ability to speak, like pulling a fire alarm or severe heckling at an event other people want to attend IS censorship.
there, solved it for you :*
Ya know there are times when Bill Mahar shows a little common sense.
my son is 40...a masters degree at 26...he said conservative thought back then was even more restricted than today. the university mileue was undeniably left leaning and unobstructedly biased against any form of dissent. However---only conservative dissent is restricted. sad. however Miller's insanely funny and riotous satire hooked up with Maher??? priceless.
And we thought it was bad when this was recorded? Compared to now, it’s a joke!
I find myself in disagreement with Maher often, I also respect him for often taking the opposite position to many issues which much of the left hold dear. He ruffles feathers on each side of the bird!
dennis had a couple of zingers hear. especially the hyde pearce line.
0:57 perfect!!!
truth movement growing the awaking is happening
how long ago was this?
How long ago was this???
Pee Wee Herman in the cabinet at this point would be a blessing! He would have fixed this whole pesky transportation issue.
This is the Bill Maher I grew up liking. Til today somethings he says are the same. Bill has in ways conformed when Obama took office.
Its sad that these two couldn't coexist on HBO
They warned us.
what year was this? 2002?
Bravo
@0:36 "a place where the best minds..."
It's not about the best minds, it's about who is willing to PAY.
preach guys
Wow! He was talking about Berkeley even back then.
Anybody knows what year is it?
Still very relevant
This is Genius !
#iLoveBillMaher
Good night!
And thats 2014....
This is a subject that has been simmering since the late 1980's. The movie PCU made shit out of PC in the early 1990's and it's a subject that is rearing its head again. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Dennis Miller for president that fucker rocks
Maher may say he is free-speech friendly here, but he feeds the beast that hates it.
Was this before or after Maher came out?
1:55 He just perfectly described /pol/
I love Dennis Miller....
and this was over 10 years ago
I wanna see the Bing cherry thing!!!!!!!
He's used that line so many times it's not even funny anymore...
This is one instance in which i actually agree with ole Bill.
Dear Bill, you're just an employee.
"Kicking ass overseas =NOT a lib"
Bill Maher just shows his true colors @ the end of this vid - with his "war mentality"!
+Duane Kosmicki Is it a joke or otherwise? Time shall tell the tale!
And now in 2022.. same shit different day. 🤷