I've been using my oilstone as a professional Cabinet Maker for 35 years. I bought it at a flea-market for about £5. It's given me excellent results, sharpening for just a few minutes at a time. So long as you get a burr, and flatten off the back, you're there. I've only had to flatten it twice! You don't need float glass to flatten a stone. Just put a sheet of good quality coarse abrasive (like 80 grit SAIT brand or something) on the bed of your machine tool (planer/joiner, table saw whatever). If you want you can hold it down with double sided tape. My oilstone takes about 20 minutes to 1/2 hour to flatten like that (and it's a really hard stone). When you're sharpening, if the stone 'glazes over' your oil is too thick. You just want a thin oil like 3 in 1 or WD40 (or mix the 2??). Then it works just like a waterstone - but you don't have to flatten it after every use! You don't need a designated area for sharpening with oilstones. Mine is in a mahogany box with a lid, I made myself. I put a screw going through the box, to leave the points projecting by about 2mm, at each corner. Put it on the bench, and it won't move around as the screw points dig in to the bench slightly. No damp towels/non slip mats etc necessary. If there's oil everywhere, you're using too much oil!!! Once it's saturated with oil, you just need a little tiny squirt of fresh oil for every sharpening job. When it's hot weather, you often find you don't even need that, as the oil rises to the surface. Wipe it clean after use. And yes your hands will get a bit dirty/oily after every sharpen, but guess what? There's a solution to that, it's called 'washing your hands' - presumably you'd do the same after sharpening with a waterstone/diamond stone (if not, shame on you)? I have recently started stropping after sharpening, and that is like the icing on the cake. Superfine edge! Just a piece of leather glued to a piece of wood (again with screws in the corner) rubbed with jewelers rouge cutting compound (cheap as chips on Amazoff). Sharpening and stropping my 1" bench chisel takes about 30 seconds literally. Mind you I don't faff about with a honing guide. You've obviously heard lots of 'cons' of oilstones from people. Some of whom might want to sell you some lovely new diamond stones/waterstones etc, perhaps?
Having declared my dissatisfaction with this sharpener last night ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxDcr-y2Pf6xdnrFHrSP7dl9kpKaCozcSQ I thought about the problem some more. It occurred to me that I might be undoing each attempt at achieving a sharp edge by the repeated attempts. So, I tried to clean up the unsatisfactory result by honing with only positions 3 and 4.Miracle!! A really nicely sharpened chef's knife, more than enough to handle my needs. Admittedly, it did not reach professionally sharpened razor-fineness, but it is now significantly sharper than it was. A bout of breaking down carrots convinced me. So, major apologies to the manufacturer, Amazon, and all happy and potential owners! Follow the directions: don't buy it if you have ceramic blades; and don't overwork your knife blade.
Really great vids! One tip which I haven't seen posted is: To determine if your water stones have any low spots when you are flattening them with a diamond plate, put a crisscrossing grid of pencil marks across them (something like ¼” to ½” spacing). After a couple of passes on the plate, the pencil marks will be removed except in the low spots. So, if any marks remain, you need to keep going. It’s a very quick and easy way to minimize the amount of stone you need to remove.
Float glass is manufactured currently by allowing the molten glass to 'float' across a molten tin 'bath'. The plant I worked for maintained a molten tin bath that was 130 inches wide and ran almost a 1/4 of a mile in length. LOF Plant #10, Lathrop, Calif. Your welcome.
Thank you for contrasting sharpening methods and stones. You made the subject a bit more understandable to me. FWIW: Float glass was originally manufactured, as I recall from my Roman history reads, by gently pouring hot melted glass into a pot of hot melted lead. (Glaziers back then must have had rather short lives.) The lead temp was held at or near the same temperature as the melted glass to minimize temperature gradient shocks during the pour. Because the lead was liquid, the surface is flat, and thus, the glass product came out flat. After the pour the lead is allowed to cool, which cools down the glass until usable. The density of the metallic bath must be greater than that of the glass so the glass floats on it and does not sink to the bottom... so hot water glass floats are out of the question. The shape of the vessel dictates the shape of the finished glass product, but edges are trued a bit and sanded and made marketable. Nowadays, they use modern production methods that employ safer, engineered metal solutions to have (probably) better-to-purpose parameters.
My hometown industry is glass and they make float glass pretty much the same way they did back in Roman days. They use a tin alloy instead of lead for the obvious reasons. Also, glass is not liquid enough to pour until about 1300°C or so. Density isn't the only reason water won't work 😉. The metal stays molten long after the glass has slowly cooled into a solid enough sheet to remove without warping it, so the still-liquid metal is drained or the glass pushed off the top so the metal can be used again without ever solidifying to save on energy costs.
Matt with the glass and sandpaper you have to be very careful in placing the paper. Took me many many attempts before I was able to place it and not get tears in it. When you place it hold it up to window and if you see air bubbles in it you will get tear out. I have held them up to light bulb light and could not see them but in natural light they stand out easier. If you can do it without getting bubbles you can sharpen a needle on it without tearing into it. But with bubbles just the size of the head of a needle the blade will catch. You can also use just a back stroke, or use side to side strokes. Even on stones unless the cheap profiling stones, I do not use a push stroke as it wears the stones on a guess 20-30% faster.
In order to judge how good a method is, you almost have to use it for a year and learn to use it well (which means being able to refresh a plane iron in about a minute and a half including disassembly of a double iron, and a minute or so for a chisel). I started with soft waterstones, went to hard waterstones, and have ended up with natural waterstones and mostly oilstones. There is no set of modern waterstones that will outwork an IM313 with oil, a medium crystolon, a fine india and a medium oilstone (like a dan's "hard" - not a true hard, just a hard). If there is a desire for fast stones, going coarser is smarter than trying to find a "fine and fast" stone. If you feel you need a fast stone, you need to do better work with the coarser stones. The fine stones are about control. You can get good with any of the methods, though, and a trade cabinetmaker with king stones would be faster and more consistent than a hobbyist with the best thing they could find.
Matt, thank you for a well-done video. Although I’m pretty familiar with these sharpening systems, I enjoy your opinions and your presentation. I’m sure you inspire lots of folks. It is however sad that there are people who get pleasure in finding fault, anonymously claim superior knowledge, or just plain spout negativity. I do hope you are not too sensitive to these reactions. Just look at it as entertainment. After reading all the comments here, I’d feel proud to have earned so much positive feedback. Best of luck!
Great stuff! I do wish you would have given oil stones a look and talked about their benefits rather than just disregarding them, though; I gave every other sharpening system a try first (because everyone wrote off oil stones) but eventually, I finally tried them and found that they suited me the best (stay flat, less messy compared to waterstones, don't require presoaking, no need to worry about rust which I battle with waterstones, and leave a surface which responds really well to a strop). I go with a fine or medium India or a vintage washita, and follow up with a hard arkansas and a strop. I can get a new edge very quickly with this setup, and I don't even use a honing guide... But, that's just me!
Luke Dupont vintage washita is the best for tools, really fast... if you use it regularly, not letting youre tools go too dull,, you Can get by with just one stone
Hey Matt! So I've been a carpenter for 9 years, since I was 18. I build high end stairs for a trim company, and while of course there are always obstacles to conquer, alot of the challenge is gone at this point. I'm one of those guys who always want to grow as a woodworker, it's what I love about my profession, there are so many ways to learn and grow and just different ways to work with wood. I've decided for 2020 I want to start learning more about making furniture, joinery, and I want to do it primarily with hand tools to add another level of challenge. I want to say thank you much for you videos on various hand tools that are more vital early on. I always buy high end tools, I don't see the point in buying mediocre tools just to replace them later, and seeing as this is my career it only makes sense. But having you show me a good place to start has made it more realistic financially for me and I really appreciate it. In already loving my veritas planes and hand saws, and the DMT diamond plate works like a dream. I'm wanting to get a strop to take my sharpening/polishing to the next level. I have a 350/1200 dual sided plate, which has been working great. My question(s) then are : is there a specific type/brand of strop you would most recommend? One that I've found has a two sides, with one being more a seude side, which I'm guessing I would use for a higher "grit" as it's softer. Maybe provide a link to a product you recommend? Also, as far as cleaning/initially setting up my strop, I've seen some guys use oil and then sand paper (really don't like the idea of possibly ending up with oil being transferred to my work piece and ruining it tho) and I've seen other guys just scrape it with a razor to remove old compound. What would you recommend as far as maintaining the strop? (Method, how often, etc) last question, I see your compound is in a jar more like a paste, whereas all I can find with a quick search online and at the local box store are like hard sticks of compound. Exactly what kind of compound should I be getting, and if I were to get a double sided or two strops, what "grits" would I want if I'm taking it up to 1200 on the diamond plate, to be the most effective, and could you provide a link to that product? Know that was a bit long winded, but maybe this could be a whole new video? Thanks for all the videos man and keep at it! Wish you nothing but the best brother.
My system is a 8" slow speed grinder with the Veritas grinding jig, chased by DMT 1200 mesh, DMT 8000 mesh (cuts like a 4000) and a 8000 grit Japanese waterstone (that cuts like a 10,000, wears really slow and only needs a splash of water). I came to that after a ridiculous amount of different setups from Scary Sharp/Tormek/Worksharp/waterstones/etc. Nice and clean, only 1-2 steps for a touchup and the hollow grind is super easy to freehand for quick touchups if I don't want to grab the LN jig. All the ridiculous waterstones I bought back in the day stay in the kitchen for sharpening knives :)
Thanks Matt, I've been enjoying your channel alot these days. I've found that a honing guide on a DMT 1200x Diasharp followed by a strop gets me a consistent and sharp edge quickly. If I need to take off more material to reset a bevel I just use 600x or more course wet dry sandpaper on a machined and polished granite tile. I never have to flatten the diasharp like you would a stone and the Diasharp has been in use for years and I use it to sharpen all my kitchen knives and woodworking tools and it still works like new. Likely I could arrive at a razor sharp edge with fewer strokes on the strop if I added the diasharp 8000x to my workflow, but I've found there are diminishing returns when you aim for perfect razor sharp edge. A razor or scalpel sharp edge doesn't stick around very long regardless of the steel the blade is made of. I find I spend less time sharpening if I'm careful to be aware or what the tool feels like when it is starting to loose it's edge and sharpen or strop it often. I aim to maintain a passible "very sharp" on the edge most of the time rather than always chasing razor sharp. I find this approach works for me.
Just found your videos and think they straight, honest and enthusiastic, great. One point about diamond stones. You mentioned they clog but you didn't talk about lubricant on them. Most seem to think they work better with a spray of water and I have even been told of using WD40.Another point is using lots of water in a very small workshop (also known as a shed) close to electrical plugs etc bit iffy and where space is limited a separate sharpening station may not be on.
I've been in the trade for so long that I started with oil stones, but now I use a combination of moderately price diamond stones, water stones and a strop. I am very impressed with the results.
Thanks again for sharing! I've been using the 400/1000 diamond 'stone' for ages and find it excellent. About 8 years ago, I purchased a water stone when I was in Japan. I'm not in the employ of Steinway, so the 3000 seemed fine enough for my purposes, along with a leather strop and green hard paste. Might give the super fine a wee bash, as I love to see a mirror finish on my edges. As for the angry rants from the 'my way or the highway' brigade: well, I'm just glad that there are generous souls like your good self, who are willing to share. 👍
Hey, Matt - Thank you so much for making these videos! I just picked up a 600/1200 diamond sharpener and honing guide today. A very kind fellow sent me a Stanley #4 plane and am going to use these after making your protrusion guide to get the plane iron sharp again. And my chisels...they need a LOT of work. Anyway, I really appreciate your sharing your knowledge with us!!!!!
Thanks for confirming a previous buying decision, Matt. I use the Rider diamond stone and three of the scary papers. Even my cheapo Dewalt chisels are like mirrored razors.
i'm pretty new to the woodcrafting and i tend to think that i need every tool i can find before starting. And then you tell us in your videos what we can get to start, surprisingly we don`t need that much!
Tools? You need wood in order to woodwork. Tools are totally optional. The wood is mandatory though. Without wood you're just not woodworking. But if you feel you must have some tools a few chisels, a saw, a combination square and a knife will get you a long ways. Then to be a master craftsman get a hand plane.
if you use glass cleaner instead of water or oil it works amazing because it has a very slight abrasive in it maybe 40000 grit it also polishes so well never go back once you have tried it
I get an allergic reaction when I use glass cleaner now -- possibly as a result of this, or possibly something I developed earlier. If it doesn't bother you, though, it does work well!
Agree, glass cleaner works great. Read the label before buying though and make sure there is no ammonia. The dollar stores carry the right one, and cheap too.
Ive heard use glass cleaner on your diamond stone and water on your water stone. Is that what you meant or do i just dump glass cleaner on anything and everything
Thanks Matt, you're a brilliant teacher! Great detail and clear summary. On this basis, I've just ordered the Axminster Rider Sharpening Station which seems to embody your key recommendations. I look forward to having sharp tools!
Sir Walter Raleigh 8 grades of paper? Is it really necessary to use all those grits - don’t you end up spending an inordinate amount of time sharpening?
An effective and cost efficient way of flattening waterstones is using the gridded back of a ceramic tile. You can buy them individually and quite cheaply from discount tile stores pretty much everywhere.
Excellent video overview on sharpening. I couldn't agree with you more on your opinions. I use waterstones followed by a strop for plane blades and chisels. I have found ceramic stones very convenient for carving knives. They are used dry but need to be flattened on occasion. Therefore a diamond lapping plate is essential to keep all stones flat. Keep up the good work!
they make float glass by pouring glass on molten zinc. Liquid glass "floats" on top. Surface tension is equal everywhere so you maintain thickness...Great content by the way!
I just use my oilstones like a water stone because it works much better like that and you dont have to have oil around. It creates mud just like a waterstone and works pretty good in my opinion
Oil stones aren´t messy. You don´t have to use a lot oil. If the shavings clog the stone, you used the wrong oil or not enough. Or you didn´t clean the stone. For cleaning the stone, I just rub it with a hand full wood shavings. I use oil stones because the stay flat for a long time. I don´t have to flatten them after each use. The oil doesn´t dry, they´re always ready to go. By using the oil stones, I can get back to work quicker. When I have to sharpen a tool, I don´t want to waste time. I just have to tun around to my second work bench where the oil stones are mounted on a piece of wood and sharpen my tool. With water stones, I would have to soak them in water first and flatten them after a few chisels when I want to sharpen the blade of a plane. I always hated that. It interrupts my work and it is a big mess. Water stones remove steel quicker, but not much quicker. In the end, using them takes more time. I use my water stones only in the kitchen. For sharpening knifes they don´t have to be flat. Diamond plates would be an alternative for oil stones, but the good ones are expensive and I don´t know if they last as long as an oil stone. I also don´t use a honing guide. I did that in the past, but I don´t want to waste time. I´m pragmatic about the angle of the cutting edge. Something between 25° and 35° will do the job as long as it is sharp.
Like most people, I thought freehand sharpening would be difficult but, after watching a demonstration, I found that it' really not. It's like any other skill, for example learning to saw to a line. It took a bit of practice but not nearly as much as I expected. No one likes sharpening but once you have the skill and a process, like sawing to a line, it becomes a non-event. It's no longer something to dread but something you do in two minutes and you're back to woodworking. If you don't feel confident about it, then use a guide. It's not like the cool kids are going to snub you.
Does it save time? Well, yes and no. If you use alloy irons and chisels like A2 or PMV11, you don't have to stop and sharpen very often. In this case, freehand isn't much of a time saver. If you use vintage irons and chisels or simply less expensive carbon steel tools, most people should be stopping to sharpen more often than they are and this is where it begins to save some time. When I'm chopping dovetails in hardwood, I will touch up my chisel after each corner of a drawer box. Sometimes I just hit it on the strop but often I use my finest stone then the strop. I'm back to work in maybe one minute.
convex bevel from freehand? You have a hand driven stone wheel? The town I live in has a old treadle stone wheel set on on display as "art" and the wheel stone has a radius of about 20-23 inches on a guessimate lol. So many times I pass by it and think dammit I gonna steal that sucker lol.
I have to agree. I find freehand to be easy and much more flexible than using a jig. I can't tell you how many tools I bought don't even fit into a jig in the first place... And you don't need to mess around with angle guides and such. You can also do things like slightly rounding plane irons when working freehand, which makes all the difference when truing the edge of a board. Not sure how you would even accomplish that with a guide...
@boekelnj - a large enough wheel (like the one mentioned above at 20-23") would leave almost no concavity on a chisel. maybe such a small one that it could only be measured in very few micrometers
Point of interest, float glass is named because it is made by floating it on a very long bed of molten zinc. Only the one side in contact with the zinc is truly flat. All the best.
I noticed so many folks hate sharpening. For some unknown reason I find it one of the most relaxing things I do in my shop, I know I have issues! But at the same time I'm just a part time woodworking making time not much of an issue. There's a product called magic eraser most stores have it it's a cleaner and works great on cleaning your diamond stones.
I like it at the start of the day when I'm preparing my tools for a days work. But when I'm halfway through cutting a dovetail and I need to sharpen a chisel, that's when it can kindly sod off. It breaks the workflow. I'll look into that stuff though, cheers!
I like it at the start of the day when I'm preparing my tools for a days work. But when I'm halfway through cutting a dovetail and I need to sharpen a chisel, that's when it can kindly sod off. It breaks the workflow. I'll look into that stuff though, cheers!
Good job the Earth Is flat or Float Glass would be like a balloon 15 cm across. I mean, how big do you think we are? The moon is very close. I bumped my head on it from the pub the other day and woke up in a ditch with no memory, I believe I was protected by the 9 pints of Olde FingerSparkel. .. Abduction! PS - Thank you once again Matt. I hope you realise how much you help some of us.
What brands are your water stones? Thanks. Great video and sweet shop table! One other thing. What grit do you use for wetdry sandpaper for lapping? And in the same question what grit diamonds? The dmt lapping plate is triple the price of their sharpening plates.
Nice! I've just spent the weekend at the European Woodworking show and have been eyeing up the 3000/8000 combo. If I get it, I'll wear it in over the course of a few months and see how I get on. Cheers mate!
"float glass" is made by floating molten glass on molten metal usually tin. I believe it was invented by the Pilkington brothers in England. Before float was invented the glass was polished both sides to get it flat. This process was very costly and labour intensive and probably the main reason why Pilkington ( now called veridian ) is the biggest glass company in the world.
Just replaced my strop from Axminster! Very good price, love the end result after sharpening on the Dmt 1200 3000 then strop super sharp super quick. Very good advice Matt keep it up.👍👍all the best Chris C
Honing guides are nice for beginners but once you´ve learned to do it free hand, you can use the whole stone. That´s one of the two problems with honing guides. You can´t use the whole stone with them. It will dish quicker and you´ll have to flatten it more regularly which wastes a lot of the abrasive material you´ve paid good mones for and it wastes time. The other problem with honing guides is that you need time to set the thing up. You can save some time if you have a jig to set the angle, but that´s just one more thing you need and one more thing that takes up space. If you learn how to sharpen freehand, you will have none of these problems. There´s also no need for a separate sharpening station for oil stones. You build a nice box for them, so your bench stays clean. You don´t need a lot of oil on the stone, a thin film is enough. The oil doesn´t dry, so you can sharpen a few tools untill you have to take the oil off and put some new on it. A few drops is enough and the stone stays ready for the next use. When using water stones, I can recommend splash and go stones that don´t have to be soaked. Shapton Kuromaku or Naniwa professional/chosera are a good choice. A few drops of water is enough. Soaking water stones are very messy and you don´t want that slurry on your bench. Then you have to soak them and store them dry. Some can stay soaked but then you need a bucket or something to store them. All of these methods work and can get your tools sharp. Just look what´s best for your use case.
its amazing the discussion on diamond vs whet, then you have the sandpaper folts, and those fancy sharpening gizmos between knives, planes, and chisels you can get some heated discussions. and oddly enough i went to the dollar tree last week picked up a 1 dollar stone, and fixed up a old butcher knife i used on one of those horrible fixed angle carbide pull sharpeners (DONT USE THOSE ON A KNIFE YOU LIKE!) I re ground below the knicks and then flipped the stone and honed to whatever the abrasive was, maybe 5-800 didn't expect much, but a few strops on 1k sandpaper (not enough to polish) and that sucker shaved. Im not a chef or a sharpening snob if it cuts hair its sharp in my book, i've never gotten anything hair popping sharp like a really nice strait razor. But all in all a 1 dollar stone put a hair cutting edge on a cheap kitchen knife. I think if you get the technique right you will get a edge on what your workin with. Your budget decides how knife of equipment you are using.
Float glass is ordinary glass, that has been left to solidify atop a slab of molten metal. The molten metal was liquefied and then slightly cooled, and left absolutely still, resulting in a perfectly flat molten slab. The molten glass is poured atop that perfectly flat molten slab and left to solidify, resulting in an equally flat peice of "float glass".
I believe most float glass is made in a continuous process where the glass floats the length of a molten tin (?) bath until it is cool enough to be transfered to rollers. Also, flatness is a relative term. For the purpose of sharpening, float glass can probably be considered "perfectly" flat. But, for other applications like high quality optics, it not very flat.
I’ve done the scary sharp method (don’t care for it), waterstones, and diamond stones. I love the waterstones for grits 1000and above. I have four waterstones 1000, 3000, 10000, and 13000. I have two diamond stones for the donkey work of removing material. The diamond stones are nice but they don’t go too high in the grits and I love polishing to a mirror edge as it makes cutting or planing easier. Oh and I sharpen freehand. Practice makes better. :)
Matches my experience exactly. I have one diamond stone at 400 grit. If I have to remove a lot of material like flattening the sole of a plane, the diamond stone is great, but the 3k grit waterstone is my highest grit stone and then I polish on the bench grinder with a polishing wheel and green buffing compound (60 k grit), I am entirely happen with the results, which are razor sharp.
Float glass is made by pouring liquid glass into a pool of molten lead. The glass floats to the top and spreads out then the whole thing is allowed to cool. This is how the flatness is exactly equal to the curvature of the earth. Machined surfaces can technically be made far flatter, but honestly a granite or marble tile is fine for this rather than "float" glass, and it cheaper and far more easily accessible. You're splitting hairs over a few ten thousandths of an inch over the width of a 2-1/2" plane blade. A dual-surface water stone and high quality diamond plate lap block are cheaper over a lifetime of a professional, but the Scary method on a $4 granite tile with an assortment pack of 3M wet/dry sandpaper is cheaper for most hobbyists.
I've been sharpening free hand for years and have never used a honing guide. I can get very sharp edges and consistent bevel angles, its all about muscle memory. I use waterstones and the whole issue with the pushstroke can easily be avoided, just gotta be careful and conscious of how your edge is laying on the stone. I don't find flatness to be that big a deal. Occasionally I will flatten mine, but certainly not after every use. I find that the stones stay reasonably flat for a long time before they're too dished out.
I used a polished scrap piece of black granite with some wet n dry paper (started with semi-warn 150 grit and went up to 400) for my dad's block plane iron. It wasn't "scary" sharp but it effortlessly removed the wood. I did it by hand by the way...*GASP! Haha
Instead of buying a lapping plate for water stones, just have three and flatten them against each other. With two they'll form complimentary curves, but with three they'll be flat -- flatter than my mid-level diamond plate. I'm a sharpening noob who free-hands on water stones and I'm never going back. This morning I pretty much re-profiled an old Stanley #3 iron on a 1000-grit stone by King in the time it took for "Rocket Man" to play. Even including frequent flattening, and I'm kind of obsessive about it, water stones accomplish in minutes what takes hours on diamond stones.
Keeping a Waterstone flat is a trivial process. Use an inexpensive low grit diamond stone when needed and away you go. I sharpen primarily Japanese Chef knives which tend to be much harder than Western knife steel and I have no problem keeping my Waterstones flat. When you are ready to flatten your Waterstone draw a grid pattern with a pencil on the Waterstone face and then go over it with your diamond stone.. When the grid pattern disappears, your stone if flat. I use a 400, 1200 and 6000 Waterstones and a leather strop with a Green Chromium compound and my knives are beyond sharp. I can cut a tomato in half, place it flat on a cutting board and then I can cut a transparent slice of the tomato using only the weight of the blade to cut across the tomato as it lies flat on the cutting board.
I’m good at sharpening freehand. But it took a long time, and I loose the ability if I don’t do it regularly, like multiple times a week. Paul Sellers might do this, but hobbiests like me don’t. I now use a jig, medium and fine diamonds, a 6000 water stone and leather strope. Also, I know from experience using that honing paper freehand just destroys it.
I‘m using that same Imanishi BESTER 1000/6000 stone quite some time now. Great stone! But I managed to ruin a 1000 grid DMT with only 3 blades. No diamonds left! Did you ever experience diamond stones getting worn that quick?
Love your videos. I don't have experience with oil stones and very little with abrasive films like Scary Sharp but have used DMT diamond plates and water stones for several years. I've had the most success using a combination a course/fine diamond plates for establishing primary and secondary bevels and Waterstones for higher grit sharpening (1,000-16,000 depending on steel type and intended use). I don't seem to get as good results from extra fine and extra extra fine diamond plates. This could be, as you suggested, due to the diamonds clogging quickly or because diamonds glued to steel is very unforgiving and could cause micro-chipping in harder/brittle metals (ie A2, blue paper) or on low angle bevels compared to the swarf on Waterstones. I'm not sure if there's any evidence of that being true but it makes complete sense in my head (as most things do lol). Either way finishing with a strop is essential and often overlooked imho. Thanks again for your videos and I love the channel!
Straight to the point, great vids People usually ask what is an oil stone and what is a water stone, just most natural use water, man made depend what manufactures recommend. But once a stone has been introduced to oil there`s no going back. Diamond stones are to aggressive on metal , they scratch to deep for there grit rating, Oil stones , I expect back in the days oil was known not to rust high carbon steel.so most persons just used oil on there stones. Water stones, the majority of them designed to lift the compound and move with the blade and then get ground down to make produce a slurry, Japanese water stones are the best as long as you get the high end natural stone, they can last you a life time if used correctly and cut fast, but Way to many to mention. You could spend a life time studying them and still not know it all. Man made water stones have their place to, mainly used with oil unless recommended with water. ceramic stones mainly for end of use ,fine sharpening and polishing, Only buy the correct honing stone or plate to suit the tool and steel ,no need for expensive stones if you just need to sharpen the general tool, As a general rule hard stone for mild to soft steel ,soft stone for hard metals, Never leave an oil stone uncovered and never leave over oil on it, Nothing wrong with the usage of an old stone step now and then, No, not all water stones wear quicker, natural Japanese and other stones can be very hard wearing, depends on the stone material, and never sharpen tools near your work piece,
Informative and entertaining video, Matt! I was trying to convince myself to sharpen freehand, but I ALWAYS get a sharper edge with a jig. I have yet to see anyone who can sharpen an edge sharper freehand than they can with a reliable jig. Not saying it's not possible, but I just haven't seen it!
Yes! Glad to hear I'm not the only one who thinks that! It takes a lot of time to be able to sharpen freehand effectively. Why go through all that stress for the sake of taking 5 seconds to set up a honing guide. Madness! Anyway, thank you very much!
Yeah, I have the same result with jigs. I also don't think you can be as accurate freehand as with a jig, but these guys do it every day as part of their work routine. It would be cool if there was a jig that was set up and ready to go without spending time adjusting the blade. That is the million dollar idea!
I have a 400/1000 grit diamond plate and then finish with a strop. Produces mirror finish bevels and leaves an edge good enough to shave with, what more could you want?
"don't sharpen freehand" Rob Cosman would like a word with you :). Freehand requires more finesse but with practice, you will get a better feel for the cutting action of the stone. I can respect the use of honing guides if sharpening isn't enjoyable but there is something gratifying about doing it freehand.
So has the Queen knighted David Charlesworth for his ruler trick yet? I'm picturing him kneeling in front of her as she taps him on both shoulders with a yard stick. Sir David of Back Bevel.
No she hasn't lol. Its been used for centuries so he is only given credit for the new age wood workers that he shared it with who pass it on to those that didn't use it or heard of it. I was taught to use a narrow card scraper long before I heard of the using a ruler. So even though its not a ruler the method/purpose is still the same.
Yes, even Mr. Charlesworth mentions that he picked it up in a book somewhere in the seventies. I don't think he's trying to take credit or even cares, it's just how we describe the technique now. I wish he would do more videos, what a wealth of knowledge he has.
Matt, Thank you for all your helpful tips! For my chisel and plane sharpening, I have recently settled on some Norton water stones - and maintaining flatness of the water stone with float glass and sand paper. Could you speak to what grit sand paper you would suggest to maintain artificial stone flatness?
I was really needing to know this as well. Also, my waterstone is different grits on each side, and the other day they came apart. Any idea of what kind of adhesive is used to hold them together?
Float glass is made by floating molten metal on top of molten glass. Also, tried scary sharp. Too expensive. The paper tears too easily and restricting motion to the pull is crappy. Waterstone is my favorite, with a 400 grit diamond stone for when I need to remove a lot of material quickly. I finish with green buffing compound on my buffing wheel and that polishes it to mirror polish. Most of the time when I want to resharpen, I just use the wheel and that puts the edge back on track. Once I get an edge razor sharp, the most I have to do to resharpen is the 3000 grit waterstone and then the wheel again. That's the beauty of the honing guide. Those guys who do freehand have to go through a range of grits again, but the guide puts you in such great shape that I can resharpen my edge in about two minutes tops.
AHHHHHH I thought it was along those lines! I didn't want to commit to saying it on camera in case I was extremely wrong. I'll remember for next time, thank you!
I'll just add the molten glass is actually floated on tub of molten tin and the glass is allowed to cool until the glass is solid while the tin is still liquid.
So the molten tin surface is curved at the same radius as that of the earth! NOT FLAT AT ALL! I howled with laughter when Matt said that. Cool sense of humour.
My Dad was a research scientist at Pilkington. I remember him telling me about float glass, but I was too young and dumb to understand/appreciate. Thanks for the explanation!
I have inherited three sharpening stones from a father-in-law after he died suddenly. One is a combo -- red and grey. One is mounted in wood and appears a bit oily. How do I determine whether they are water or oil stones and what grit they are?
There's a good chance they are oilstones. Every time I've seen an old sharpening stone unearthed it's been an oilstone. Never come across a waterstone before. Not entirely sure how I would go about finding the grit. Get the stone flat, sharpen a chisel, strop it and see what sort of result you get. If you find it's not enough, get something above the 1000 grit mark such as a diamond stone.
1000 to 6000, is a huge jump, that will not let you remove the scratches from the previus grit. The grits should be tighter. 300/1000/3000 is the best set for knife sharpening for example. Also remember, that you have to double then triple or even more ,the passes as you go low to high grit.
@@MattEstlea because you haven't tried to polish a steel to mirror finish. When we use stones or sandpaper etc, we try to remove the scratches from the previus grit. As we advance, we have to apply more passes and multiply them, because as the grit gets hiegher, it removes less and less material, thus it needs more work to remove the scratches that we did with the previus grit. I never said you will not get a sharp edge like that, I just said that the jump is huge fro, 1000 to 6000. If you went, from 1000 to 3000 you would need far less work, to accomplish mirror finish to an edge. Also 6000 stone, is way to high, no need to spend the money, you can use leather strop after 1000 or even better 3000 grit. Also try to strop on black letters part, of a soft newspaper page, that you have stretched on a leather strop or any similar way. It aligns steel molecules and also provides more polish to an edge (Really scary sharp, that last even more)
Hi Matt, so glad I discovered your channel! Have been pondering what sharpening setup to get for a long time now, and this was exactly the honest, comparative breakdown I needed. Ended up ordering the Axminster diamond stone and honing guide, some 2500g self adhesive film and a strop and compound. Can't wait to put it to the test; Have been free handing on terrible waterstones up until now. Keep up the great work!
Great advice, thank you very much! I was given the hint by a professional woodworker to buy *two* (combination) waterstones to flatten each other. What do you think of this idea?
"Waterstones cut a lot faster." This is conditionally true. The main cutting advantage of more friable stones occurs when the sharpening stone is made flat and you are sharpening a flat/straight bevel. The mud is a lapping paste which will cut the steel fairly efficiently in this case, given this limitation. If a harder wearing stone is made flat, and you sharpen flat/straight edge bevels on it, you will reduce the bite of the stone, and you can make the stone's high points all level out and dull into a single plane. This makes the stone slow to a crawl and potential stop biting and cutting, at all. There is a remedy to this, which is to convex the surface of a hard-wearing stone, so that it cuts a small area of steel at any given time. The same way there is a minimum depth of cut when machining steel in a lathe or mill, there is an analogous requirement when using a stone which relies on 2 body abrasion. Adding some very small amount of convex curve to the surface allows that one small area to reach this minimum depth of cut. If you do not reach this, you end up dulling the stone and doing some burnishing (and even worse, too much burnishing causes other effects like spalling/galling). You might think a more friable stone will cut faster, because it is abrading a larger area of steel at the same time, but a hard wearing stone is cutting by two body abrasion vs 3, so the difference may not what you would think. Add in the time to flatten the waterstone every few uses (esp when sharpening smaller chisels), and the advantage is where, now? To top it off, there are SiC and aluminum oxide stones which are probably considered oil stones, but which are as friable and muddy as anything made in Japan and called a waterstone. "Oil stones are messier." If comparing to the coarse, friable type of oilstones, say coarse SiC stones (which actually cut faster than AlOx waterstones, in general), you can make a case that oil is messier than water. In firmer stones at 600 grit and up (maybe 3K grit in the Japanese scale), oil is infinitely and undeniably cleaner than water. It takes only a few drops, requires less frequent reapplication, and stones at this fineness and higher can generally be wiped off with a paper towel without leaving little fuzzies. "Oil makes the metal clog in the stone and makes it stop cutting." IME, a hard-weraing stone will stop cutting for the reason I already explained. The coarser, hard wearing stones will accumulate metal in the surface, between the asperities (high points of the particles). This does not, in any case, reduce the cutting power of the stone. As long as there is some oil (or soapy water) on the surface of the stone, any metal that builds up to challenge the asperities is automatically cleared as you sharpen. Metal shavings and dried up oil (if you use crappy oil) are more compressible than the stone's abrasive and hard matrix. They cannot interefere with cutting. It is either compressed or it is cleared by the edge you are sharpening. Only when used dry can the metal shavings stick to the metal already embedded in the stone and pile up enough to interfere with cutting. To paraphrase Matt, this is just my opinion, and I'm not trying to change anyone elses'. But I think I'm being a bit more objective and thorough on these points. The one undeniable advantage of Japanese waterstones is they have a higher profit margin. More money to go around to marketing and endorsements, esp compared tto natural mined "oil" stones or sintered ceramics which a relatively tiny piece will sharpen your largest plane blades and chisels (and be much more efficient and sharpening small chisels and plane blades and putting a new tip on a knife) and essentially last forever with essentially no maintenance (if you know how to use them). There are plenty of oilstones in use, today, by people young and old. But in terms of sales, yeah, waterstones probably outpace "oil stones" by a good margin due to the profit margin and marketing (often disguished as education). Today's kids are increasing being "educated" by commercial interests. From the way you present "oil stones," I'd guess you and/or your coworkers have never learned to use an oilstone, or are part of this "education" for dollars, or you have actually bought this misinformation hook line and sinker. Diamond plates are also excellent for sharpening chisels and plane blades. They go up to 3K grit (real, not Japanese). I've only used plates up to 800, and even those put on a pretty nice edge and last a heck of a long time. I can use all these things to sharpen my tools. Friable stones (e.g. waterstones) have advantages, but they also have significant disadvantages.
Mildy Productive Thank you for these elaborate, useful rematks.mI read it at with interest, and I apprecciate the obvious attention to material mechanics to understand the processes. Short question: What is the difference between Japanese grit and real grit you mention in the last lines?
Hey, Christian. There are charts you can find which show the suggested differences. The way most western sharpening stones are rated pretty close in numbers to sandpaper, but not quite. The Japanese Industrial Scale is inflated in the finer grits. So at, say, 40 grit, JIS and "oilstone" rating are both about the same. 150 grit JIS is probably around 100 grit. But by the time you get to 4-8K JIS, the difference is approximately 4 to 1. So 4K JIS will be comparable to something on the order of 1000 grit (my opinion... charts that are out may not agree). And as the numbers go higher, the difference gets larger. Admittedly, I have an obvious personal preference towards harder wearing oil stones for sharpening. But I didn't come up with this stuff, independently. I originally learned it from the internet... but that was almost 20 years ago, and the internet has changed. That info is long gone and buried by the current trend.
Mildy Productive Thank you, Mildy, that's extremely useful information. I had not come across it so far. I was just wondering how some people find a 1000 grit good for finishing a chisel, and others say that they recommend 6000 or so. This exponential difference in grit systems between West and Far East you describe would explain it. - I naively thought the grit number would simply be something like "peaks per centimeter" (or inch or whatever). - I will try and find detailed information on these measurements to understand it better.
"I had not come across it so far." And unless you already possess this knowledge, you will not casually "come across it." If the difference in grit rating system suggests that water stones go way higher and cut way faster for a given "number," then the internet will quietly let you believe it. And if you learn how to use an oilstone from today's internet, you should undoubtedly run to water stones. The internet is for sale to the highest bidder/botter. And no one makes money from stuff which lasts 100's of years without wearing out or slowing down or needing consumables for maintenance. This kind of knowledge doesn't grow the economy. What's the saying? Give a man a fish, and you might sell him some fish down the road. Teach him to fish, and you potentially lost a customer.
Hi Matt, I‘ve been watching your sharpening videos. With regards to the diamond stones you mentioned that they get clogged. How do you clean them? Don’t think you covered that in your videos. My sharpening to date has been in my Robert Sorby Pro Edge. But I’ve never EVER done a secondary bevel so think it’s about time I do it to stop wasting the metal! I will go for a DMT 400/1000 as per your suggestion but just had that one question. Thank you A
How flat is perfectly flat? Do they provide any tolerance of flatness and other shape tolerance information? Well it's not really important but makes me curious. Waterstones, or whetstones, or synthetic stones made out of ceramics in general, can be soft. But they can be hard just as well. Not sure if all of them should be called waterstones since there's many splash & go stones on the market now that don't absorb almost any water at all, you just splash something on the surface and go. They really don't create much mess either. Then again there's stones like Shapton's Kuromaku or glass series that seem rather hard. You likely aren't gonna bite into them with the edge, but some people don't like them for being almost too aggressive on removing material. On the other hand there's of course those cheaper side combination stones that are like piece of mud puddles as soon as you lay metal on it. I'd say there's a whole sea of information and variety in the synthetic whetstones as well. Then there's also the natural stones that are somewhat different. And some beautiful stones like Morihei or Imanishi that have natural stone mixed into the synthetic stone, they feel really nice to sharpen on. Sort of on the hard side but really nice slurry, although you can still bite into it. And the higher grit you go, usually the harder the stones are as well. Caveats everywhere. But with them just like you said about sharpening materials in general - know what you're buying before you buy. So that you won't get surprised by misunderstanding what you have in your hands and how to use it. I think most agree that if you're going very high in polishing, there's not many like the natural stones. But maybe the 10k and above grits are more for straight razor and sushi knives. If you find diamond stones are too expensive for flattening, you can get synthetic flattening stones from highly liked manufacturers like Naniwa or Suehiro for something like 20 euros/dollars. Also watch out because it's not at all given that your granite plate is a flat and properly shaped surface either and doesn't live.
You can use water on whetstones? As long as they haven't previously been used with oil... Whetstones are no where near as messy as water stones and if you use oil your not getting corrosive water all over your tools. The only reason you would have found that whetstones don't cut quickly is because you were using crap ones.
@ Jaime Clifton - I agree. I also prefer whetstones (oilstones) to water stones especially in carving where the vast amount of waterstone residue get's on everything (clothes, hands, tools, tool handles etc) & that grit will destroy a beautifully sharpened edge if it gets embedded in the wood to be carved. Waterstones, in my opinion, are best for the widest possible blades only & are still a pain in the ass to constantly have to flatten. I personally prefer high-end India stones for coarse, initial bevel setting/shaping & Arkansas stones for refining bevel & edge then stropping w/ Herb's Yellowstone compound on the hardest leather for ultimate refinement (again for carving tools especially but also plane/spokeshave blades & bench chisels). DMT "stones" (plates?) are also excellent, esp. when used w/ Trend diamond sharpening fluid - I find they cut way faster & are less bothersome than water stones.
beginner sharpener free hand what i do is wet stone take chisel side ways and go in a z figure top left to top right go a centimeter lower from right to left rince and repeat
Hi Matt, I've just discovered your channel and I'm finding your videos really useful. I've just got the Axminster diamond stones, which I think are going to suit my needs for the time being. What lubricating fluid should I be using with it ?
Hi Steve! Thank you so much, glad to hear they’re paying off. You can get something called Lapping Fluid from various companies. Trend is the only brand I can remember off the top of my head. But in all honesty, don’t bother. A bit of water is all you need!
Thanks. Great information again. Just went out today and got the dmt diamond stone. I might add that the diamond stones aren’t actually real diamonds 💍 but man made?
I'm just comming to the end of many year of stupidity in sharping my tools. For rough work, you want a oil stone, then when you want a better edge, you have to find what works for you. No real rules, because people are individuals, and do thing differently. Me, personally? Oil stones start, or fix my many mistakes. After that, I have to think, "99% of the sharping, should've been done, courser stone first. Secondly, don't muscle the stone." I've seen people, sharpen for decades, and they put their strength it their shapening. I start with very course oil stone, to fix things. Then finer oil stones to sharpen. After that it's a light touch, taking only minutes. I'm positive, most people have more experience, but it works for me.
Thanks for a great video, have a question for you or anybody that may know: so I understood that you cannot use a diamond flattening plate for sharpening, can you use a sharpening diamond plate for flattening? I already have a 1000/6000 whetstone and thinking of getting a diamond shapening stone and use it both for sharpening at lower grit and flattening the whetstone. Would this work? Thanks
Serious question now. Are diamond stones forever stones? In other words, do they wear out or do they just clog up with de Rise? And is there any way to keep the grit clean? I use water stones for the affordability, but you're right, they're a friggin' mess and take up a lot of space. I'd consider DMTs if I knew the added cost meant the stone lasted for a long time. What's the typical lifespan of a diamond stone.....please don't say "it depends." Compare it to comparable use with water stones. As always, nice work with this vid!
Steven Rochon The good quality plates will last you a long time but avoid the cross-hatched type as the diamonds don't stick. Get either DMT or Ezylap as their process bonds the diamonds into the plate surface. They won't last forever but should be good for quite a few years. For cleaning I use a white pencil eraser or more recently have found the large rubber sanding belt cleaners you can get from many to line suppliers, they do a great job.
Well a waterstone is basically a massive brick of grit so in the long term that is definitely going to last longer than a diamond stone. Unless you were doing UNHOLY amounts of sharpening, you'd never wear through an entire waterstone over a lifetime. However, with Diamond stones being a finite surface, this will happen over the years. DMT do a line called DiaSharp, I'd advise looking at those. They are bonded well, and the plates are pretty big in size. If you use the entire surface of the stone and not focus all your attention in the centre, they will last a bloody long time. Cheers Steven!
Matt Estlea - Furniture actually, I've got a Norton combo stone, and the 4000 grit side is worn down about 60% in perhaps 15 months. I'm not known for sharpening (or doing anything) to an unholy amount. I'll come right up to the edge, then peer over the cliff, just to get a look at that unholy side.
Stupid question!? What do you use to attach the sandpaper to the glass? I really like the method but am struggling with the best way to have it stay put. Thanks for any tips! Btw, your channel is awesome! I keep looking forward every three days for the newest video...
often water or lapping fluid between the wet/dry sandpaper & glass will produce a surface tension between the two & hold the paper still enough, as long as one doesn't bear down on the tool too heavily.
I actually have found PSA (pressure sensitive adhesive) backed lapping film and sandpaper to work best...but the water trick works okay if you cannot find any PSA sheets.
Like the workbench? Watch me make it here: ua-cam.com/video/FXKYwM0f5WU/v-deo.html&t
I've been using my oilstone as a professional Cabinet Maker for 35 years. I bought it at a flea-market for about £5. It's given me excellent results, sharpening for just a few minutes at a time. So long as you get a burr, and flatten off the back, you're there. I've only had to flatten it twice! You don't need float glass to flatten a stone. Just put a sheet of good quality coarse abrasive (like 80 grit SAIT brand or something) on the bed of your machine tool (planer/joiner, table saw whatever). If you want you can hold it down with double sided tape. My oilstone takes about 20 minutes to 1/2 hour to flatten like that (and it's a really hard stone). When you're sharpening, if the stone 'glazes over' your oil is too thick. You just want a thin oil like 3 in 1 or WD40 (or mix the 2??). Then it works just like a waterstone - but you don't have to flatten it after every use! You don't need a designated area for sharpening with oilstones. Mine is in a mahogany box with a lid, I made myself. I put a screw going through the box, to leave the points projecting by about 2mm, at each corner. Put it on the bench, and it won't move around as the screw points dig in to the bench slightly. No damp towels/non slip mats etc necessary. If there's oil everywhere, you're using too much oil!!! Once it's saturated with oil, you just need a little tiny squirt of fresh oil for every sharpening job. When it's hot weather, you often find you don't even need that, as the oil rises to the surface. Wipe it clean after use. And yes your hands will get a bit dirty/oily after every sharpen, but guess what? There's a solution to that, it's called 'washing your hands' - presumably you'd do the same after sharpening with a waterstone/diamond stone (if not, shame on you)? I have recently started stropping after sharpening, and that is like the icing on the cake. Superfine edge! Just a piece of leather glued to a piece of wood (again with screws in the corner) rubbed with jewelers rouge cutting compound (cheap as chips on Amazoff). Sharpening and stropping my 1" bench chisel takes about 30 seconds literally. Mind you I don't faff about with a honing guide.
You've obviously heard lots of 'cons' of oilstones from people. Some of whom might want to sell you some lovely new diamond stones/waterstones etc, perhaps?
Having declared my dissatisfaction with this sharpener last night ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxDcr-y2Pf6xdnrFHrSP7dl9kpKaCozcSQ I thought about the problem some more. It occurred to me that I might be undoing each attempt at achieving a sharp edge by the repeated attempts. So, I tried to clean up the unsatisfactory result by honing with only positions 3 and 4.Miracle!! A really nicely sharpened chef's knife, more than enough to handle my needs. Admittedly, it did not reach professionally sharpened razor-fineness, but it is now significantly sharper than it was. A bout of breaking down carrots convinced me. So, major apologies to the manufacturer, Amazon, and all happy and potential owners! Follow the directions: don't buy it if you have ceramic blades; and don't overwork your knife blade.
Really great vids! One tip which I haven't seen posted is: To determine if your water stones have any low spots when you are flattening them with a diamond plate, put a crisscrossing grid of pencil marks across them (something like ¼” to ½” spacing). After a couple of passes on the plate, the pencil marks will be removed except in the low spots. So, if any marks remain, you need to keep going. It’s a very quick and easy way to minimize the amount of stone you need to remove.
Float glass is manufactured currently by allowing the molten glass to 'float' across a molten tin 'bath'. The plant I worked for maintained a molten tin bath that was 130 inches wide and ran almost a 1/4 of a mile in length. LOF Plant #10, Lathrop, Calif. Your welcome.
Thank you for contrasting sharpening methods and stones. You made the subject a bit more understandable to me.
FWIW: Float glass was originally manufactured, as I recall from my Roman history reads, by gently pouring hot melted glass into a pot of hot melted lead. (Glaziers back then must have had rather short lives.) The lead temp was held at or near the same temperature as the melted glass to minimize temperature gradient shocks during the pour. Because the lead was liquid, the surface is flat, and thus, the glass product came out flat. After the pour the lead is allowed to cool, which cools down the glass until usable. The density of the metallic bath must be greater than that of the glass so the glass floats on it and does not sink to the bottom... so hot water glass floats are out of the question. The shape of the vessel dictates the shape of the finished glass product, but edges are trued a bit and sanded and made marketable. Nowadays, they use modern production methods that employ safer, engineered metal solutions to have (probably) better-to-purpose parameters.
My hometown industry is glass and they make float glass pretty much the same way they did back in Roman days. They use a tin alloy instead of lead for the obvious reasons. Also, glass is not liquid enough to pour until about 1300°C or so. Density isn't the only reason water won't work 😉. The metal stays molten long after the glass has slowly cooled into a solid enough sheet to remove without warping it, so the still-liquid metal is drained or the glass pushed off the top so the metal can be used again without ever solidifying to save on energy costs.
For a beginner like me, this was one of the most convincing videos. Thanks for sharing.
Matt with the glass and sandpaper you have to be very careful in placing the paper. Took me many many attempts before I was able to place it and not get tears in it. When you place it hold it up to window and if you see air bubbles in it you will get tear out. I have held them up to light bulb light and could not see them but in natural light they stand out easier. If you can do it without getting bubbles you can sharpen a needle on it without tearing into it. But with bubbles just the size of the head of a needle the blade will catch. You can also use just a back stroke, or use side to side strokes. Even on stones unless the cheap profiling stones, I do not use a push stroke as it wears the stones on a guess 20-30% faster.
In order to judge how good a method is, you almost have to use it for a year and learn to use it well (which means being able to refresh a plane iron in about a minute and a half including disassembly of a double iron, and a minute or so for a chisel).
I started with soft waterstones, went to hard waterstones, and have ended up with natural waterstones and mostly oilstones.
There is no set of modern waterstones that will outwork an IM313 with oil, a medium crystolon, a fine india and a medium oilstone (like a dan's "hard" - not a true hard, just a hard).
If there is a desire for fast stones, going coarser is smarter than trying to find a "fine and fast" stone. If you feel you need a fast stone, you need to do better work with the coarser stones. The fine stones are about control.
You can get good with any of the methods, though, and a trade cabinetmaker with king stones would be faster and more consistent than a hobbyist with the best thing they could find.
Matt, thank you for a well-done video. Although I’m pretty familiar with these sharpening systems, I enjoy your opinions and your presentation. I’m sure you inspire lots of folks. It is however sad that there are people who get pleasure in finding fault, anonymously claim superior knowledge, or just plain spout negativity. I do hope you are not too sensitive to these reactions. Just look at it as entertainment. After reading all the comments here, I’d feel proud to have earned so much positive feedback. Best of luck!
Great stuff! I do wish you would have given oil stones a look and talked about their benefits rather than just disregarding them, though; I gave every other sharpening system a try first (because everyone wrote off oil stones) but eventually, I finally tried them and found that they suited me the best (stay flat, less messy compared to waterstones, don't require presoaking, no need to worry about rust which I battle with waterstones, and leave a surface which responds really well to a strop). I go with a fine or medium India or a vintage washita, and follow up with a hard arkansas and a strop. I can get a new edge very quickly with this setup, and I don't even use a honing guide...
But, that's just me!
Luke Dupont vintage washita is the best for tools, really fast...
if you use it regularly, not letting youre tools go too dull,, you Can get by with just one stone
@@volsmann if you never get a new tool to you that needs some bevel setup. What a nightmare scenario!
Hey Matt! So I've been a carpenter for 9 years, since I was 18. I build high end stairs for a trim company, and while of course there are always obstacles to conquer, alot of the challenge is gone at this point. I'm one of those guys who always want to grow as a woodworker, it's what I love about my profession, there are so many ways to learn and grow and just different ways to work with wood. I've decided for 2020 I want to start learning more about making furniture, joinery, and I want to do it primarily with hand tools to add another level of challenge. I want to say thank you much for you videos on various hand tools that are more vital early on. I always buy high end tools, I don't see the point in buying mediocre tools just to replace them later, and seeing as this is my career it only makes sense. But having you show me a good place to start has made it more realistic financially for me and I really appreciate it. In already loving my veritas planes and hand saws, and the DMT diamond plate works like a dream. I'm wanting to get a strop to take my sharpening/polishing to the next level. I have a 350/1200 dual sided plate, which has been working great. My question(s) then are : is there a specific type/brand of strop you would most recommend? One that I've found has a
two sides, with one being more a seude side, which I'm guessing I would use for a higher "grit" as it's softer. Maybe provide a link to a product you recommend? Also, as far as cleaning/initially setting up my strop, I've seen some guys use oil and then sand paper (really don't like the idea of possibly ending up with oil being transferred to my work piece and ruining it tho) and I've seen other guys just scrape it with a razor to remove old compound. What would you recommend as far as maintaining the strop? (Method, how often, etc) last question, I see your compound is in a jar more like a paste, whereas all I can find with a quick search online and at the local box store are like hard sticks of compound. Exactly what kind of compound should I be getting, and if I were to get a double sided or two strops, what "grits" would I want if I'm taking it up to 1200 on the diamond plate, to be the most effective, and could you provide a link to that product? Know that was a bit long winded, but maybe this could be a whole new video? Thanks for all the videos man and keep at it! Wish you nothing but the best brother.
You are the only person who I find to have a great common sense and well explained.
"As flat as the curvature of the earth" for some, That's a completely different debate 😂
I didnt understand there is no curve on this beautiful flat earth
Water will always find it's level
The earth is curved, yes, but because it’s so big the curvature is very minimal.
Lol flat
Gravity no even real
My system is a 8" slow speed grinder with the Veritas grinding jig, chased by DMT 1200 mesh, DMT 8000 mesh (cuts like a 4000) and a 8000 grit Japanese waterstone (that cuts like a 10,000, wears really slow and only needs a splash of water).
I came to that after a ridiculous amount of different setups from Scary Sharp/Tormek/Worksharp/waterstones/etc. Nice and clean, only 1-2 steps for a touchup and the hollow grind is super easy to freehand for quick touchups if I don't want to grab the LN jig. All the ridiculous waterstones I bought back in the day stay in the kitchen for sharpening knives :)
Thanks Matt, I've been enjoying your channel alot these days. I've found that a honing guide on a DMT 1200x Diasharp followed by a strop gets me a consistent and sharp edge quickly. If I need to take off more material to reset a bevel I just use 600x or more course wet dry sandpaper on a machined and polished granite tile. I never have to flatten the diasharp like you would a stone and the Diasharp has been in use for years and I use it to sharpen all my kitchen knives and woodworking tools and it still works like new. Likely I could arrive at a razor sharp edge with fewer strokes on the strop if I added the diasharp 8000x to my workflow, but I've found there are diminishing returns when you aim for perfect razor sharp edge. A razor or scalpel sharp edge doesn't stick around very long regardless of the steel the blade is made of. I find I spend less time sharpening if I'm careful to be aware or what the tool feels like when it is starting to loose it's edge and sharpen or strop it often. I aim to maintain a passible "very sharp" on the edge most of the time rather than always chasing razor sharp. I find this approach works for me.
Just found your videos and think they straight, honest and enthusiastic, great. One point about diamond stones. You mentioned they clog but you didn't talk about lubricant on them. Most seem to think they work better with a spray of water and I have even been told of using WD40.Another point is using lots of water in a very small workshop (also known as a shed) close to electrical plugs etc bit iffy and where space is limited a separate sharpening station may not be on.
I've been in the trade for so long that I started with oil stones, but now I use a combination of moderately price diamond stones, water stones and a strop. I am very impressed with the results.
Thanks again for sharing! I've been using the 400/1000 diamond 'stone' for ages and find it excellent. About 8 years ago, I purchased a water stone when I was in Japan. I'm not in the employ of Steinway, so the 3000 seemed fine enough for my purposes, along with a leather strop and green hard paste. Might give the super fine a wee bash, as I love to see a mirror finish on my edges.
As for the angry rants from the 'my way or the highway' brigade: well, I'm just glad that there are generous souls like your good self, who are willing to share. 👍
Great Stuff Matt. Way to start a war with a tool duel!
No more wars, please! In whatever way, shape or form. Ever.
@@tube4waldek it's a joke calm down
Hey, Matt - Thank you so much for making these videos! I just picked up a 600/1200 diamond sharpener and honing guide today. A very kind fellow sent me a Stanley #4 plane and am going to use these after making your protrusion guide to get the plane iron sharp again. And my chisels...they need a LOT of work. Anyway, I really appreciate your sharing your knowledge with us!!!!!
Thanks for confirming a previous buying decision, Matt. I use the Rider diamond stone and three of the scary papers. Even my cheapo Dewalt chisels are like mirrored razors.
i'm pretty new to the woodcrafting and i tend to think that i need every tool i can find before starting. And then you tell us in your videos what we can get to start, surprisingly we don`t need that much!
Tools? You need wood in order to woodwork. Tools are totally optional. The wood is mandatory though. Without wood you're just not woodworking. But if you feel you must have some tools a few chisels, a saw, a combination square and a knife will get you a long ways. Then to be a master craftsman get a hand plane.
if you use glass cleaner instead of water or oil it works amazing because it has a very slight abrasive in it maybe 40000 grit it also polishes so well never go back once you have tried it
Simple green
I get an allergic reaction when I use glass cleaner now -- possibly as a result of this, or possibly something I developed earlier. If it doesn't bother you, though, it does work well!
What type of glass cleaner? Like Windex.
Agree, glass cleaner works great. Read the label before buying though and make sure there is no ammonia. The dollar stores carry the right one, and cheap too.
Ive heard use glass cleaner on your diamond stone and water on your water stone. Is that what you meant or do i just dump glass cleaner on anything and everything
Thanks Matt, you're a brilliant teacher! Great detail and clear summary. On this basis, I've just ordered the Axminster Rider Sharpening Station which seems to embody your key recommendations. I look forward to having sharp tools!
I sharpen with 8 different grits of paper, right up to scary sharp. I just spray on car window cleaner. Finish with honing compound and mdf block.
Sir Walter Raleigh 8 grades of paper? Is it really necessary to use all those grits - don’t you end up spending an inordinate amount of time sharpening?
An effective and cost efficient way of flattening waterstones is using the gridded back of a ceramic tile. You can buy them individually and quite cheaply from discount tile stores pretty much everywhere.
Oo havent heard of that one before. If they're flat, great!
Just bring a straightedge w/ you to the discount store & pick the absolute flattest tile using the straightedge.
Excellent video overview on sharpening. I couldn't agree with you more on your opinions. I use waterstones followed by a strop for plane blades and chisels. I have found ceramic stones very convenient for carving knives. They are used dry but need to be flattened on occasion. Therefore a diamond lapping plate is essential to keep all stones flat. Keep up the good work!
What brand of ceramic stones are you using? I haven't heard of ceramic stones being used dry. Thanks.
A good review and almost covered all the stones except Ceramic. Would be interesting to see how they fair.
they make float glass by pouring glass on molten zinc. Liquid glass "floats" on top. Surface tension is equal everywhere so you maintain thickness...Great content by the way!
I like your kick ass attitude, backed by good knowledge.thank you for your advice.
I just use my oilstones like a water stone because it works much better like that and you dont have to have oil around. It creates mud just like a waterstone and works pretty good in my opinion
Oil stones aren´t messy. You don´t have to use a lot oil. If the shavings clog the stone, you used the wrong oil or not enough. Or you didn´t clean the stone. For cleaning the stone, I just rub it with a hand full wood shavings.
I use oil stones because the stay flat for a long time. I don´t have to flatten them after each use. The oil doesn´t dry, they´re always ready to go. By using the oil stones, I can get back to work quicker. When I have to sharpen a tool, I don´t want to waste time. I just have to tun around to my second work bench where the oil stones are mounted on a piece of wood and sharpen my tool. With water stones, I would have to soak them in water first and flatten them after a few chisels when I want to sharpen the blade of a plane. I always hated that. It interrupts my work and it is a big mess.
Water stones remove steel quicker, but not much quicker. In the end, using them takes more time.
I use my water stones only in the kitchen. For sharpening knifes they don´t have to be flat. Diamond plates would be an alternative for oil stones, but the good ones are expensive and I don´t know if they last as long as an oil stone.
I also don´t use a honing guide. I did that in the past, but I don´t want to waste time. I´m pragmatic about the angle of the cutting edge. Something between 25° and 35° will do the job as long as it is sharp.
👏
Like most people, I thought freehand sharpening would be difficult but, after watching a demonstration, I found that it' really not. It's like any other skill, for example learning to saw to a line. It took a bit of practice but not nearly as much as I expected. No one likes sharpening but once you have the skill and a process, like sawing to a line, it becomes a non-event. It's no longer something to dread but something you do in two minutes and you're back to woodworking. If you don't feel confident about it, then use a guide. It's not like the cool kids are going to snub you.
Does it save time? Well, yes and no. If you use alloy irons and chisels like A2 or PMV11, you don't have to stop and sharpen very often. In this case, freehand isn't much of a time saver. If you use vintage irons and chisels or simply less expensive carbon steel tools, most people should be stopping to sharpen more often than they are and this is where it begins to save some time. When I'm chopping dovetails in hardwood, I will touch up my chisel after each corner of a drawer box. Sometimes I just hit it on the strop but often I use my finest stone then the strop. I'm back to work in maybe one minute.
boekelnj the convex bevel formed by freehand sharpening is a bit more durable.
convex bevel from freehand? You have a hand driven stone wheel? The town I live in has a old treadle stone wheel set on on display as "art" and the wheel stone has a radius of about 20-23 inches on a guessimate lol. So many times I pass by it and think dammit I gonna steal that sucker lol.
I have to agree. I find freehand to be easy and much more flexible than using a jig. I can't tell you how many tools I bought don't even fit into a jig in the first place... And you don't need to mess around with angle guides and such.
You can also do things like slightly rounding plane irons when working freehand, which makes all the difference when truing the edge of a board. Not sure how you would even accomplish that with a guide...
@boekelnj - a large enough wheel (like the one mentioned above at 20-23") would leave almost no concavity on a chisel. maybe such a small one that it could only be measured in very few micrometers
Point of interest, float glass is named because it is made by floating it on a very long bed of molten zinc. Only the one side in contact with the zinc is truly flat. All the best.
I noticed so many folks hate sharpening. For some unknown reason I find it one of the most relaxing things I do in my shop, I know I have issues! But at the same time I'm just a part time woodworking making time not much of an issue. There's a product called magic eraser most stores have it it's a cleaner and works great on cleaning your diamond stones.
I like it at the start of the day when I'm preparing my tools for a days work. But when I'm halfway through cutting a dovetail and I need to sharpen a chisel, that's when it can kindly sod off. It breaks the workflow. I'll look into that stuff though, cheers!
I like it at the start of the day when I'm preparing my tools for a days work. But when I'm halfway through cutting a dovetail and I need to sharpen a chisel, that's when it can kindly sod off. It breaks the workflow. I'll look into that stuff though, cheers!
I am really enjoying your videos. A great practical approach to something that can get so over complicated.
"I haven't got a watersource here"
- man who sprayed water from a bottle 30 seconds prior
Good job the Earth Is flat or Float Glass would be like a balloon 15 cm across. I mean, how big do you think we are? The moon is very close. I bumped my head on it from the pub the other day and woke up in a ditch with no memory, I believe I was protected by the 9 pints of Olde FingerSparkel. .. Abduction! PS - Thank you once again Matt. I hope you realise how much you help some of us.
What brands are your water stones? Thanks. Great video and sweet shop table! One other thing. What grit do you use for wetdry sandpaper for lapping? And in the same question what grit diamonds? The dmt lapping plate is triple the price of their sharpening plates.
Excellent video Matt!
I first purchased the same water stone 1000/6000 and stayed with it.
Nice! I've just spent the weekend at the European Woodworking show and have been eyeing up the 3000/8000 combo. If I get it, I'll wear it in over the course of a few months and see how I get on. Cheers mate!
They invited me to the EW show but it was a bit far for me.
Do you know why it was the last one?
Cheers!
Thanks for the tips. I relied on UA-cam for woodworking tips. And your tips is the must read ones!
in my opinion at low budget
200 - 300 WaterStone then 1000 WaterStone then 6000 WaterStone then strops
thank you for your video it really helped me
"float glass" is made by floating molten glass on molten metal usually tin. I believe it was invented by the Pilkington brothers in England. Before float was invented the glass was polished both sides to get it flat. This process was very costly and labour intensive and probably the main reason why Pilkington ( now called veridian ) is the biggest glass company in the world.
Just replaced my strop from Axminster! Very good price, love the end result after sharpening on the Dmt 1200 3000 then strop super sharp super quick. Very good advice Matt keep it up.👍👍all the best Chris C
Thank you as a beginner this video has been so helpful.
Honing guides are nice for beginners but once you´ve learned to do it free hand, you can use the whole stone. That´s one of the two problems with honing guides. You can´t use the whole stone with them. It will dish quicker and you´ll have to flatten it more regularly which wastes a lot of the abrasive material you´ve paid good mones for and it wastes time. The other problem with honing guides is that you need time to set the thing up. You can save some time if you have a jig to set the angle, but that´s just one more thing you need and one more thing that takes up space.
If you learn how to sharpen freehand, you will have none of these problems.
There´s also no need for a separate sharpening station for oil stones. You build a nice box for them, so your bench stays clean. You don´t need a lot of oil on the stone, a thin film is enough. The oil doesn´t dry, so you can sharpen a few tools untill you have to take the oil off and put some new on it. A few drops is enough and the stone stays ready for the next use. When using water stones, I can recommend splash and go stones that don´t have to be soaked. Shapton Kuromaku or Naniwa professional/chosera are a good choice. A few drops of water is enough. Soaking water stones are very messy and you don´t want that slurry on your bench. Then you have to soak them and store them dry. Some can stay soaked but then you need a bucket or something to store them.
All of these methods work and can get your tools sharp. Just look what´s best for your use case.
"Float glass" is called that because it cools and solidifies while it is floating over molten metal.
Correct, It cools on molten Lead.
its amazing the discussion on diamond vs whet, then you have the sandpaper folts, and those fancy sharpening gizmos between knives, planes, and chisels you can get some heated discussions. and oddly enough i went to the dollar tree last week picked up a 1 dollar stone, and fixed up a old butcher knife i used on one of those horrible fixed angle carbide pull sharpeners (DONT USE THOSE ON A KNIFE YOU LIKE!)
I re ground below the knicks and then flipped the stone and honed to whatever the abrasive was, maybe 5-800 didn't expect much, but a few strops on 1k sandpaper (not enough to polish) and that sucker shaved. Im not a chef or a sharpening snob if it cuts hair its sharp in my book, i've never gotten anything hair popping sharp like a really nice strait razor. But all in all a 1 dollar stone put a hair cutting edge on a cheap kitchen knife.
I think if you get the technique right you will get a edge on what your workin with. Your budget decides how knife of equipment you are using.
Float glass is ordinary glass, that has been left to solidify atop a slab of molten metal. The molten metal was liquefied and then slightly cooled, and left absolutely still, resulting in a perfectly flat molten slab. The molten glass is poured atop that perfectly flat molten slab and left to solidify, resulting in an equally flat peice of "float glass".
I believe most float glass is made in a continuous process where the glass floats the length of a molten tin (?) bath until it is cool enough to be transfered to rollers. Also, flatness is a relative term. For the purpose of sharpening, float glass can probably be considered "perfectly" flat. But, for other applications like high quality optics, it not very flat.
I’ve done the scary sharp method (don’t care for it), waterstones, and diamond stones. I love the waterstones for grits 1000and above. I have four waterstones 1000, 3000, 10000, and 13000. I have two diamond stones for the donkey work of removing material. The diamond stones are nice but they don’t go too high in the grits and I love polishing to a mirror edge as it makes cutting or planing easier. Oh and I sharpen freehand. Practice makes better. :)
Matches my experience exactly. I have one diamond stone at 400 grit. If I have to remove a lot of material like flattening the sole of a plane, the diamond stone is great, but the 3k grit waterstone is my highest grit stone and then I polish on the bench grinder with a polishing wheel and green buffing compound (60 k grit), I am entirely happen with the results, which are razor sharp.
Float glass is made by pouring liquid glass into a pool of molten lead. The glass floats to the top and spreads out then the whole thing is allowed to cool. This is how the flatness is exactly equal to the curvature of the earth. Machined surfaces can technically be made far flatter, but honestly a granite or marble tile is fine for this rather than "float" glass, and it cheaper and far more easily accessible. You're splitting hairs over a few ten thousandths of an inch over the width of a 2-1/2" plane blade. A dual-surface water stone and high quality diamond plate lap block are cheaper over a lifetime of a professional, but the Scary method on a $4 granite tile with an assortment pack of 3M wet/dry sandpaper is cheaper for most hobbyists.
I've been sharpening free hand for years and have never used a honing guide. I can get very sharp edges and consistent bevel angles, its all about muscle memory. I use waterstones and the whole issue with the pushstroke can easily be avoided, just gotta be careful and conscious of how your edge is laying on the stone. I don't find flatness to be that big a deal. Occasionally I will flatten mine, but certainly not after every use. I find that the stones stay reasonably flat for a long time before they're too dished out.
I used a polished scrap piece of black granite with some wet n dry paper (started with semi-warn 150 grit and went up to 400) for my dad's block plane iron. It wasn't "scary" sharp but it effortlessly removed the wood. I did it by hand by the way...*GASP! Haha
Instead of buying a lapping plate for water stones, just have three and flatten them against each other. With two they'll form complimentary curves, but with three they'll be flat -- flatter than my mid-level diamond plate.
I'm a sharpening noob who free-hands on water stones and I'm never going back. This morning I pretty much re-profiled an old Stanley #3 iron on a 1000-grit stone by King in the time it took for "Rocket Man" to play. Even including frequent flattening, and I'm kind of obsessive about it, water stones accomplish in minutes what takes hours on diamond stones.
Keeping a Waterstone flat is a trivial process. Use an inexpensive low grit diamond stone when needed and away you go. I sharpen primarily Japanese Chef knives which tend to be much harder than Western knife steel and I have no problem keeping my Waterstones flat. When you are ready to flatten your Waterstone draw a grid pattern with a pencil on the Waterstone face and then go over it with your diamond stone.. When the grid pattern disappears, your stone if flat. I use a 400, 1200 and 6000 Waterstones and a leather strop with a Green Chromium compound and my knives are beyond sharp. I can cut a tomato in half, place it flat on a cutting board and then I can cut a transparent slice of the tomato using only the weight of the blade to cut across the tomato as it lies flat on the cutting board.
I’m good at sharpening freehand. But it took a long time, and I loose the ability if I don’t do it regularly, like multiple times a week. Paul Sellers might do this, but hobbiests like me don’t. I now use a jig, medium and fine diamonds, a 6000 water stone and leather strope. Also, I know from experience using that honing paper freehand just destroys it.
Russ Russ my experience exactly
I‘m using that same Imanishi BESTER 1000/6000 stone quite some time now. Great stone! But I managed to ruin a 1000 grid DMT with only 3 blades. No diamonds left! Did you ever experience diamond stones getting worn that quick?
Love your videos. I don't have experience with oil stones and very little with abrasive films like Scary Sharp but have used DMT diamond plates and water stones for several years. I've had the most success using a combination a course/fine diamond plates for establishing primary and secondary bevels and Waterstones for higher grit sharpening (1,000-16,000 depending on steel type and intended use). I don't seem to get as good results from extra fine and extra extra fine diamond plates. This could be, as you suggested, due to the diamonds clogging quickly or because diamonds glued to steel is very unforgiving and could cause micro-chipping in harder/brittle metals (ie A2, blue paper) or on low angle bevels compared to the swarf on Waterstones. I'm not sure if there's any evidence of that being true but it makes complete sense in my head (as most things do lol). Either way finishing with a strop is essential and often overlooked imho. Thanks again for your videos and I love the channel!
Straight to the point, great vids
People usually ask what is an oil stone and what is a water stone, just most natural use water, man made depend what manufactures recommend. But once a stone has been introduced to oil there`s no going back.
Diamond stones are to aggressive on metal , they scratch to deep for there grit rating,
Oil stones , I expect back in the days oil was known not to rust high carbon steel.so most persons just used oil on there stones.
Water stones, the majority of them designed to lift the compound and move with the blade and then get ground down to make produce a slurry,
Japanese water stones are the best as long as you get the high end natural stone, they can last you a life time if used correctly and cut fast, but Way to many to mention. You could spend a life time studying them and still not know it all.
Man made water stones have their place to, mainly used with oil unless recommended with water.
ceramic stones mainly for end of use ,fine sharpening and polishing,
Only buy the correct honing stone or plate to suit the tool and steel ,no need for expensive stones if you just need to sharpen the general tool,
As a general rule hard stone for mild to soft steel ,soft stone for hard metals,
Never leave an oil stone uncovered and never leave over oil on it,
Nothing wrong with the usage of an old stone step now and then,
No, not all water stones wear quicker, natural Japanese and other stones can be very hard wearing, depends on the stone material, and never sharpen tools near your work piece,
Informative and entertaining video, Matt! I was trying to convince myself to sharpen freehand, but I ALWAYS get a sharper edge with a jig. I have yet to see anyone who can sharpen an edge sharper freehand than they can with a reliable jig. Not saying it's not possible, but I just haven't seen it!
Yes! Glad to hear I'm not the only one who thinks that! It takes a lot of time to be able to sharpen freehand effectively. Why go through all that stress for the sake of taking 5 seconds to set up a honing guide. Madness! Anyway, thank you very much!
Yeah, I have the same result with jigs. I also don't think you can be as accurate freehand as with a jig, but these guys do it every day as part of their work routine. It would be cool if there was a jig that was set up and ready to go without spending time adjusting the blade. That is the million dollar idea!
Look into sharpening metal cutting tools like milling cutters, multi flute end mills nobody
sharpens free hand on these things
Unless you are talking about glass blown bongs, almost all sheet glass made today is float process. :)
Unless it’s toughened then it’s rolled so has waves in it
Hey Matt! I don’t understand well what’s the paste for and whats the surface you are using it. Is it leather?
Thank you!
Regards from Chile
This is a good start. I need to know how to use them.
I have a 400/1000 grit diamond plate and then finish with a strop. Produces mirror finish bevels and leaves an edge good enough to shave with, what more could you want?
"don't sharpen freehand"
Rob Cosman would like a word with you :). Freehand requires more finesse but with practice, you will get a better feel for the cutting action of the stone. I can respect the use of honing guides if sharpening isn't enjoyable but there is something gratifying about doing it freehand.
So has the Queen knighted David Charlesworth for his ruler trick yet? I'm picturing him kneeling in front of her as she taps him on both shoulders with a yard stick. Sir David of Back Bevel.
No she hasn't lol. Its been used for centuries so he is only given credit for the new age wood workers that he shared it with who pass it on to those that didn't use it or heard of it. I was taught to use a narrow card scraper long before I heard of the using a ruler. So even though its not a ruler the method/purpose is still the same.
Yes, even Mr. Charlesworth mentions that he picked it up in a book somewhere in the seventies. I don't think he's trying to take credit or even cares, it's just how we describe the technique now. I wish he would do more videos, what a wealth of knowledge he has.
ROTFL ... He certainly deserves it. :)
She might as well knight Paul Sellers right along with him. ;)
I must say I really like that bench.
I just found you. Moses-Katz reference you. I enjoy you alot. Good info.
I had the problem with my LV guide not holding my blade well. I put a piece of the 3M stick on, wet or dry abrasive, and now its rock steady.
Great video, Matt. What grit are you using to flat the waterstone? Thanks.
Matt,
Thank you for all your helpful tips! For my chisel and plane sharpening, I have recently settled on some Norton water stones - and maintaining flatness of the water stone with float glass and sand paper.
Could you speak to what grit sand paper you would suggest to maintain artificial stone flatness?
I was really needing to know this as well. Also, my waterstone is different grits on each side, and the other day they came apart. Any idea of what kind of adhesive is used to hold them together?
220. Most of the diamond stones used to flatten waterstones are in the range of 220.
float glass was invented by Pilkingtons after WW2. It uses a liquid tin base for the glass to be poured onto.
Haha, I’ve always sharpened freehand (never on the push). Great video!
Float glass is made by floating molten metal on top of molten glass.
Also, tried scary sharp. Too expensive. The paper tears too easily and restricting motion to the pull is crappy. Waterstone is my favorite, with a 400 grit diamond stone for when I need to remove a lot of material quickly. I finish with green buffing compound on my buffing wheel and that polishes it to mirror polish. Most of the time when I want to resharpen, I just use the wheel and that puts the edge back on track. Once I get an edge razor sharp, the most I have to do to resharpen is the 3000 grit waterstone and then the wheel again. That's the beauty of the honing guide. Those guys who do freehand have to go through a range of grits again, but the guide puts you in such great shape that I can resharpen my edge in about two minutes tops.
Float Glass is produced on a bath of tin. The more you know!
AHHHHHH I thought it was along those lines! I didn't want to commit to saying it on camera in case I was extremely wrong. I'll remember for next time, thank you!
Invented by Mr Pilkington in the 1950's
I'll just add the molten glass is actually floated on tub of molten tin and the glass is allowed to cool until the glass is solid while the tin is still liquid.
So the molten tin surface is curved at the same radius as that of the earth! NOT FLAT AT ALL! I howled with laughter when Matt said that. Cool sense of humour.
My Dad was a research scientist at Pilkington. I remember him telling me about float glass, but I was too young and dumb to understand/appreciate. Thanks for the explanation!
I have inherited three sharpening stones from a father-in-law after he died suddenly. One is a combo -- red and grey. One is mounted in wood and appears a bit oily. How do I determine whether they are water or oil stones and what grit they are?
There's a good chance they are oilstones. Every time I've seen an old sharpening stone unearthed it's been an oilstone. Never come across a waterstone before. Not entirely sure how I would go about finding the grit. Get the stone flat, sharpen a chisel, strop it and see what sort of result you get. If you find it's not enough, get something above the 1000 grit mark such as a diamond stone.
What grit wet/dry do you use to flatten your water stones?
1000 to 6000, is a huge jump, that will not let you remove the scratches from the previus grit. The grits should be tighter. 300/1000/3000 is the best set for knife sharpening for example. Also remember, that you have to double then triple or even more ,the passes as you go low to high grit.
Then why does it take me about 10 back and forth passes?
@@MattEstlea because you haven't tried to polish a steel to mirror finish. When we use stones or sandpaper etc, we try to remove the scratches from the previus grit. As we advance, we have to apply more passes and multiply them, because as the grit gets hiegher, it removes less and less material, thus it needs more work to remove the scratches that we did with the previus grit. I never said you will not get a sharp edge like that, I just said that the jump is huge fro, 1000 to 6000. If you went, from 1000 to 3000 you would need far less work, to accomplish mirror finish to an edge. Also 6000 stone, is way to high, no need to spend the money, you can use leather strop after 1000 or even better 3000 grit. Also try to strop on black letters part, of a soft newspaper page, that you have stretched on a leather strop or any similar way. It aligns steel molecules and also provides more polish to an edge (Really scary sharp, that last even more)
Hi Matt, so glad I discovered your channel! Have been pondering what sharpening setup to get for a long time now, and this was exactly the honest, comparative breakdown I needed. Ended up ordering the Axminster diamond stone and honing guide, some 2500g self adhesive film and a strop and compound. Can't wait to put it to the test; Have been free handing on terrible waterstones up until now.
Keep up the great work!
Great advice, thank you very much! I was given the hint by a professional woodworker to buy *two* (combination) waterstones to flatten each other. What do you think of this idea?
Wolfgang The tougher stone will win.... =p
Very comprehensive. Stropping is where the magic happens ; )!
I think Matt just managed to both put down and sell all three systems at the same time.
"Waterstones cut a lot faster." This is conditionally true. The main cutting advantage of more friable stones occurs when the sharpening stone is made flat and you are sharpening a flat/straight bevel. The mud is a lapping paste which will cut the steel fairly efficiently in this case, given this limitation. If a harder wearing stone is made flat, and you sharpen flat/straight edge bevels on it, you will reduce the bite of the stone, and you can make the stone's high points all level out and dull into a single plane. This makes the stone slow to a crawl and potential stop biting and cutting, at all. There is a remedy to this, which is to convex the surface of a hard-wearing stone, so that it cuts a small area of steel at any given time. The same way there is a minimum depth of cut when machining steel in a lathe or mill, there is an analogous requirement when using a stone which relies on 2 body abrasion. Adding some very small amount of convex curve to the surface allows that one small area to reach this minimum depth of cut. If you do not reach this, you end up dulling the stone and doing some burnishing (and even worse, too much burnishing causes other effects like spalling/galling). You might think a more friable stone will cut faster, because it is abrading a larger area of steel at the same time, but a hard wearing stone is cutting by two body abrasion vs 3, so the difference may not what you would think. Add in the time to flatten the waterstone every few uses (esp when sharpening smaller chisels), and the advantage is where, now? To top it off, there are SiC and aluminum oxide stones which are probably considered oil stones, but which are as friable and muddy as anything made in Japan and called a waterstone. "Oil stones are messier." If comparing to the coarse, friable type of oilstones, say coarse SiC stones (which actually cut faster than AlOx waterstones, in general), you can make a case that oil is messier than water. In firmer stones at 600 grit and up (maybe 3K grit in the Japanese scale), oil is infinitely and undeniably cleaner than water. It takes only a few drops, requires less frequent reapplication, and stones at this fineness and higher can generally be wiped off with a paper towel without leaving little fuzzies. "Oil makes the metal clog in the stone and makes it stop cutting." IME, a hard-weraing stone will stop cutting for the reason I already explained. The coarser, hard wearing stones will accumulate metal in the surface, between the asperities (high points of the particles). This does not, in any case, reduce the cutting power of the stone. As long as there is some oil (or soapy water) on the surface of the stone, any metal that builds up to challenge the asperities is automatically cleared as you sharpen. Metal shavings and dried up oil (if you use crappy oil) are more compressible than the stone's abrasive and hard matrix. They cannot interefere with cutting. It is either compressed or it is cleared by the edge you are sharpening. Only when used dry can the metal shavings stick to the metal already embedded in the stone and pile up enough to interfere with cutting. To paraphrase Matt, this is just my opinion, and I'm not trying to change anyone elses'. But I think I'm being a bit more objective and thorough on these points. The one undeniable advantage of Japanese waterstones is they have a higher profit margin. More money to go around to marketing and endorsements, esp compared tto natural mined "oil" stones or sintered ceramics which a relatively tiny piece will sharpen your largest plane blades and chisels (and be much more efficient and sharpening small chisels and plane blades and putting a new tip on a knife) and essentially last forever with essentially no maintenance (if you know how to use them). There are plenty of oilstones in use, today, by people young and old. But in terms of sales, yeah, waterstones probably outpace "oil stones" by a good margin due to the profit margin and marketing (often disguished as education). Today's kids are increasing being "educated" by commercial interests. From the way you present "oil stones," I'd guess you and/or your coworkers have never learned to use an oilstone, or are part of this "education" for dollars, or you have actually bought this misinformation hook line and sinker. Diamond plates are also excellent for sharpening chisels and plane blades. They go up to 3K grit (real, not Japanese). I've only used plates up to 800, and even those put on a pretty nice edge and last a heck of a long time. I can use all these things to sharpen my tools. Friable stones (e.g. waterstones) have advantages, but they also have significant disadvantages.
Mildy Productive Thank you for these elaborate, useful rematks.mI read it at with interest, and I apprecciate the obvious attention to material mechanics to understand the processes. Short question: What is the difference between Japanese grit and real grit you mention in the last lines?
Hey, Christian. There are charts you can find which show the suggested differences. The way most western sharpening stones are rated pretty close in numbers to sandpaper, but not quite. The Japanese Industrial Scale is inflated in the finer grits. So at, say, 40 grit, JIS and "oilstone" rating are both about the same. 150 grit JIS is probably around 100 grit. But by the time you get to 4-8K JIS, the difference is approximately 4 to 1. So 4K JIS will be comparable to something on the order of 1000 grit (my opinion... charts that are out may not agree). And as the numbers go higher, the difference gets larger. Admittedly, I have an obvious personal preference towards harder wearing oil stones for sharpening. But I didn't come up with this stuff, independently. I originally learned it from the internet... but that was almost 20 years ago, and the internet has changed. That info is long gone and buried by the current trend.
Mildy Productive Thank you, Mildy, that's extremely useful information. I had not come across it so far. I was just wondering how some people find a 1000 grit good for finishing a chisel, and others say that they recommend 6000 or so. This exponential difference in grit systems between West and Far East you describe would explain it. - I naively thought the grit number would simply be something like "peaks per centimeter" (or inch or whatever). - I will try and find detailed information on these measurements to understand it better.
"I had not come across it so far." And unless you already possess this knowledge, you will not casually "come across it." If the difference in grit rating system suggests that water stones go way higher and cut way faster for a given "number," then the internet will quietly let you believe it. And if you learn how to use an oilstone from today's internet, you should undoubtedly run to water stones. The internet is for sale to the highest bidder/botter. And no one makes money from stuff which lasts 100's of years without wearing out or slowing down or needing consumables for maintenance. This kind of knowledge doesn't grow the economy. What's the saying? Give a man a fish, and you might sell him some fish down the road. Teach him to fish, and you potentially lost a customer.
Hi Matt,
I‘ve been watching your sharpening videos. With regards to the diamond stones you mentioned that they get clogged. How do you clean them? Don’t think you covered that in your videos. My sharpening to date has been in my Robert Sorby Pro Edge. But I’ve never EVER done a secondary bevel so think it’s about time I do it to stop wasting the metal! I will go for a DMT 400/1000 as per your suggestion but just had that one question. Thank you A
How flat is perfectly flat? Do they provide any tolerance of flatness and other shape tolerance information? Well it's not really important but makes me curious.
Waterstones, or whetstones, or synthetic stones made out of ceramics in general, can be soft. But they can be hard just as well. Not sure if all of them should be called waterstones since there's many splash & go stones on the market now that don't absorb almost any water at all, you just splash something on the surface and go. They really don't create much mess either. Then again there's stones like Shapton's Kuromaku or glass series that seem rather hard. You likely aren't gonna bite into them with the edge, but some people don't like them for being almost too aggressive on removing material. On the other hand there's of course those cheaper side combination stones that are like piece of mud puddles as soon as you lay metal on it. I'd say there's a whole sea of information and variety in the synthetic whetstones as well. Then there's also the natural stones that are somewhat different. And some beautiful stones like Morihei or Imanishi that have natural stone mixed into the synthetic stone, they feel really nice to sharpen on. Sort of on the hard side but really nice slurry, although you can still bite into it. And the higher grit you go, usually the harder the stones are as well. Caveats everywhere. But with them just like you said about sharpening materials in general - know what you're buying before you buy. So that you won't get surprised by misunderstanding what you have in your hands and how to use it.
I think most agree that if you're going very high in polishing, there's not many like the natural stones. But maybe the 10k and above grits are more for straight razor and sushi knives.
If you find diamond stones are too expensive for flattening, you can get synthetic flattening stones from highly liked manufacturers like Naniwa or Suehiro for something like 20 euros/dollars. Also watch out because it's not at all given that your granite plate is a flat and properly shaped surface either and doesn't live.
You can use water on whetstones? As long as they haven't previously been used with oil... Whetstones are no where near as messy as water stones and if you use oil your not getting corrosive water all over your tools.
The only reason you would have found that
whetstones don't cut quickly is because you were using crap ones.
@ Jaime Clifton - I agree. I also prefer whetstones (oilstones) to water stones especially in carving where the vast amount of waterstone residue get's on everything (clothes, hands, tools, tool handles etc) & that grit will destroy a beautifully sharpened edge if it gets embedded in the wood to be carved. Waterstones, in my opinion, are best for the widest possible blades only & are still a pain in the ass to constantly have to flatten.
I personally prefer high-end India stones for coarse, initial bevel setting/shaping & Arkansas stones for refining bevel & edge then stropping w/ Herb's Yellowstone compound on the hardest leather for ultimate refinement (again for carving tools especially but also plane/spokeshave blades & bench chisels). DMT "stones" (plates?) are also excellent, esp. when used w/ Trend diamond sharpening fluid - I find they cut way faster & are less bothersome than water stones.
Excellent presentation, thanks !
Also do you need a strop? Or could I literally just use the combo diamond stone and remove the burr with the diamond stone as well??
That's currently what I do. Get nice wispy shavings.
beginner sharpener free hand what i do is wet stone take chisel side ways and go in a z figure top left to top right go a centimeter lower from right to left rince and repeat
Matt, what lubricant would you advise to use on a diamond stone?
Just use water
Hi Matt, I've just discovered your channel and I'm finding your videos really useful. I've just got the Axminster diamond stones, which I think are going to suit my needs for the time being. What lubricating fluid should I be using with it ?
Hi Steve! Thank you so much, glad to hear they’re paying off. You can get something called Lapping Fluid from various companies. Trend is the only brand I can remember off the top of my head. But in all honesty, don’t bother. A bit of water is all you need!
Windex works well
Thanks. Great information again. Just went out today and got the dmt diamond stone. I might add that the diamond stones aren’t actually real diamonds 💍 but man made?
They're real diamonds, the carbon structure is the same, they're just not natural
I'm just comming to the end of many year of stupidity in sharping my tools. For rough work, you want a oil stone, then when you want a better edge, you have to find what works for you. No real rules, because people are individuals, and do thing differently. Me, personally? Oil stones start, or fix my many mistakes. After that, I have to think, "99% of the sharping, should've been done, courser stone first. Secondly, don't muscle the stone." I've seen people, sharpen for decades, and they put their strength it their shapening. I start with very course oil stone, to fix things. Then finer oil stones to sharpen. After that it's a light touch, taking only minutes. I'm positive, most people have more experience, but it works for me.
Thank you for the informative video.
What do you think of Shapton ceramic water stones on which you just spray water, instead of soaking them? Thanks.
Thanks for a great video, have a question for you or anybody that may know: so I understood that you cannot use a diamond flattening plate for sharpening, can you use a sharpening diamond plate for flattening? I already have a 1000/6000 whetstone and thinking of getting a diamond shapening stone and use it both for sharpening at lower grit and flattening the whetstone. Would this work? Thanks
Very useful video Matt.
Serious question now. Are diamond stones forever stones? In other words, do they wear out or do they just clog up with de Rise? And is there any way to keep the grit clean? I use water stones for the affordability, but you're right, they're a friggin' mess and take up a lot of space. I'd consider DMTs if I knew the added cost meant the stone lasted for a long time. What's the typical lifespan of a diamond stone.....please don't say "it depends." Compare it to comparable use with water stones. As always, nice work with this vid!
Steven Rochon The good quality plates will last you a long time but avoid the cross-hatched type as the diamonds don't stick. Get either DMT or Ezylap as their process bonds the diamonds into the plate surface. They won't last forever but should be good for quite a few years.
For cleaning I use a white pencil eraser or more recently have found the large rubber sanding belt cleaners you can get from many to line suppliers, they do a great job.
Well a waterstone is basically a massive brick of grit so in the long term that is definitely going to last longer than a diamond stone. Unless you were doing UNHOLY amounts of sharpening, you'd never wear through an entire waterstone over a lifetime. However, with Diamond stones being a finite surface, this will happen over the years. DMT do a line called DiaSharp, I'd advise looking at those. They are bonded well, and the plates are pretty big in size. If you use the entire surface of the stone and not focus all your attention in the centre, they will last a bloody long time. Cheers Steven!
Matt Estlea - Furniture actually, I've got a Norton combo stone, and the 4000 grit side is worn down about 60% in perhaps 15 months. I'm not known for sharpening (or doing anything) to an unholy amount. I'll come right up to the edge, then peer over the cliff, just to get a look at that unholy side.
What do you lubricate your diamond stones with?
Stupid question!? What do you use to attach the sandpaper to the glass? I really like the method but am struggling with the best way to have it stay put.
Thanks for any tips!
Btw, your channel is awesome! I keep looking forward every three days for the newest video...
often water or lapping fluid between the wet/dry sandpaper & glass will produce a surface tension between the two & hold the paper still enough, as long as one doesn't bear down on the tool too heavily.
I actually have found PSA (pressure sensitive adhesive) backed lapping film and sandpaper to work best...but the water trick works okay if you cannot find any PSA sheets.