Hold on a minute. I thought Hydra Cap was created by someone using the Cosmic Cube to make Cap a Hydra sleeper agent all along. Even if that is the case, not correcting things and leaving Cap a Hydra sleeper agent is still a bad ending.
Exactly and there was no excuse. If the cosmic cube could do it, it could undo it, yet they refused to. Oh and and this laid the seeds for Punisher going downhill since they made it so that Frank works with criminals as long as he gets what he wants.
It is going to be a VERY LONG 12 Years before Steve Rodgers becomes Public Domain. The sick and funny part about that is It's Still less of a Wait to Have Good Not Hydra Agent Steve Rodgers than it is to see Peter and MJ's marriage restored.
@@nobodyknowsforsureOh, didn’t know that about the Punisher. That’s really lame as Frank always used to make sure that any „villain allies“ he ever encountered would meet a fitting end as he isn’t really about „the enemy of my enemy“ at all (after all, some of his enemies are the few people he respects as he is aware that he himself is not a hero).
Hydra Cap is a really, really visual moment that turns everything fans ever loved upside down. It’s probably comparable to „the slap“ from Antman. It has become part of what people remember really well and now defines what they expect.
Honestly, this is worse than One More Day for Spider-Man. At least with ASM he's had some success after OMD, but when they took a character made by two Jewish guys and made him into a Nazi, that broke him. They can't even fix it apart from rebooting the whole thing. And even then, he's fundamentally broken. And as far as the making a point about current affairs for the time, it's all based on a lie. There is no rise fo fascism unless you buy into the TDS. Everyone right of Mao is a fascist to them. So the actual point of the story is based upon a false narrative. It's ultimately hot air. It's nothing. You pay 5 bucks an issue for empty words by an angry gray haired ponytail Leftoid. Thats why it's aged like milk and will only be remembered for its controversy.
There are ways to criticize public figures and those who support them. Secret Empire picked some of the worst ones. They had Captain America, one of the most well known and liked after the MCU raised him from being a perennial B lister, become a discount Nazi. Marvel buried Cap's reputation so deep that no one outside of perhaps the Marvel bubble would defend the story. Even when Bud Light sank its brand, it still had its supporters. As I like to say, if you stuck around after this, you got what you deserved.
I"ve always said the Secret Empire could have worked.....as part of Secret Invasion, thus explaining away perfectly 'Captain America' acting so strange. Its kind of like how the show "Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes" handled Secret Invasion: From the beginning the audience knew that Cap had been replaced, the real story was seeing how long it would take the rest of the Avengers (and the world at large) to notice. They even had him switch from his 'Classic' costume to the more 'Militaristic/MCU' style costume as a subtle hint to his change.
One thing that really screams, “I have no concept of the character and what he represents, and I likewise have no idea or concern about what the fans want and what the character means to them,” is the writers being shocked that the idea got so much backlash. Seriously!? Speaking of tone-deaf, weren’t there jerks responding to the people rightfully pointing out, "Captain America was created by two Jewish men, so it's warped to make him a Nazi analogue!" by claiming the critics were all racist or something? Some people are warped.
Apparently Peter Parker was ready to take the life of a little girl in order to avoid any chance of Otto spotting him still residing inside his brain.@@karaoconnoraliasraidra
When you put writers on series who want to be Alan Moore, hate what the writing about and want burn the idea so tiktic or Twitter will give them props for taking it to the right and command doesn't care what the writers might be destroying like the frank castle or Peter and Mary Jane you end up in this quagmire of things that can't be fixed....
I remember that secret empire was the most freeing story marvel had told in years for me, in that I didn’t read it, any of it. I’d become hooked on comics and the increasingly bad events that both big companies had been churning out but with that “Hail Hydra” I was set free. I skipped any book that covered or linked to the story, there was plenty of spoilers out there so it’s not like I couldn’t find out what was happening, but for a few click bait titles that I scanned over I didn’t even do that bare minimum, I simply didn’t make mine marvel for the months the story ran. I never went back to the volume of books that I had been reading before this story, like a spell had been broken, I followed less and less till I walked away from American mainstream stuff altogether. That really is a hell of a legacy now that I think about it.
Same. I read all of 2025 Secret Wars, but once All New All Different Marvel hit, I stopped reading Marvel comics (and comics in general for a while) due to how bad those comics were. Since I heard about Secret Empire, I have also realized that the sheer knowledge of Hydra Cap just stops me from considering to read a Cap comic. Some people currently are hyped for JMS‘s new Cap run, but I don’t feel it … just no pull to even give it a try. It feels like if I would read any new Cap book, I would make Hydra Cap a part of my personal canon … and I just don’t want that. That and I‘m also convinced any new Cap book will ultimately just be bad anyway due to how politics in comics work nowadays.
If it helps any Cap fans -- and as a fan speaking, not much does! -- Marvel has officially been calling Hydra Cap someone from a parallel universe. Some damn how. And in spite of the bullshit Cosmic Cube 'going back in time so Hydra can indoctrinate Steve' god level contrivances. If that's so, Marvel somehow needs to establish that it's the real Steve who was somehow kept, uh, wherever thanks to Kobik. And by the way if Kobik supposedly fixed all the damage from Secret Empire, right? It would be nice to have the original Black Widow brought back to life, too. (And what the hell, Marvel has done weirder shit. Cap got blasted at the end of "Civil War", but just kidding, he was actually in another dimension or something anyhow!) The ONLY thing Marvel can do is erase all that stupidity to total oblivion, but of course they'll only do that if they're that close to being forced to close their doors and have an out of business sale. There's still too much derangement among the 'creatives' and the assholes in the highest offices might be too scared of SJW backlash, and that would mean negative press from the 'progressive' shills. Like I said somewhere else, Marvel needs to bite the bullet and stop half-assing it. GO ALL THE WAY ERASING THAT STUPIDITY. (Oh, it would help erasing "One More Day", too.) I'll never buy a new Marvel comic until they do! 🇺🇸
This just goes to show, the comic industry has zero respect for it iconic characters for a very long time. Not only did they make a wish on the dragon balls, to turn Captain america evil but made it seem like oh hey. No person could ever be as good as Captain America was, no soul that pure exists. A soul like that can only exist, if you wish it into being by reality bending powers. With now a fake running around using his name. Showing once more. They don't understand good or evil, if not simply having a desire to twist turn and ruin everything that is good and beloved in this world.
I am one of the few people who maintained this event could've worked if they stuck with the original plan with secret empire and have this cap just be brainwashed and by the end of the event we have Captain America basically go back to normal and redeemed himself and hydra cap goes away an we don't have to deal with hydra cap ever again at least in my opinion.
I'd rather look at it this way. Marvel and it's heroes as we knew them even going back to Cap, Namor and the first Human Torch's debut in Timely Comics was annihilated in Secret Wars 2015. Looking at it from a certain perspective, the 'rebooted 616' and all of its heroes aren't the same characters. Even if they had virtually the same history and lore (mostly), we're talking about literally all new and different. I know that's more than a little sad to see it that way, but considering how shit Marvel has become, maybe it's for the best that the original Cap, FF, Spidey, Black Widow and the Avengers and everyone are resting in peace!
Secret Empire was the unofficial death of the 616 Marvel Universe as the fans knew it. If you’re a collector in your fifties *raises hand* then this is a George Orwell way to sign off on your collection. It’s almost surreal because from that point on the Marvel Universe was never the same. It is the world outside your window, full of tearing things down and leaving it disfigured. In 2023, the post Axel Alonso crew the circle is almost complete. The sales are a reflection that fewer fans are willing to spend $$$$ on a book that rips their favorite character. I can’t help but think there’s a certain immaturity in the world today. We victimize the assailant and make the defendant into the villain. Stan Lee & Jack Kirby inspired to do better thru these heroes. Today’s creators have made everything a little darker. No one is likable.
@@seminolewind158I’m talking about George Orwell…and post Axel Alonso editorial staff who have hired terrible writers and driven sales in the toilet. 🚽 Please read carefully before commenting…
It's always good to hear from Doc. Anyways, I love Cap. That's really hard to break. But they came pretty damn close. It was a dumb idea from the jump. As I see it, they clearly wanted Sam as Cap, just because he's black. There's a word for that. But they could have said Cap was cloned, was a Skrull, any number of things. But no, they didn't want to dump on Cap as a character, but America as an ideal. How's that working out for us? Not good. There's the idea that not only white men, but mostly them, are inherently bad somehow is just disgusting. The drooling idiot in the white house recently celebrated the Birthday of George Floyd, a career criminal who was used as an excuse to burn and murder across the nation. Which is fine. Until it isn't. Years back idiots were protesting Columbus of all people. How does ripping down statues of the man help your cause? It doesn't. But they like tearing things down with no backup plan. What if Steve had been compromised by say Modok and needed a few months off? And Sam, Clint, Bucky and John Walker all tried to replace him? Yes, basically Reign of the Superman, but Clark came out of that intact. Because he's the first and the best? Instead they just took a big dump on Steve and ran away.
I’ve watched comic reviews of Secret Empire when it was released, and the only good thing about this event is the return of the REAL Captain America and him using Mjölnir (Thor’s hammer) to defeat Hydra Cap.
Marvel and DC comics do events because Events make movies. They have a beginning, middle and end with high stakes and action. Most comics are done like Soap Operas, where threads and arcs are started in the middle or near the end of the previous arc/thread, that way the stories don't really end, there's always something more to read. And these arcs vary in intensity. Some are personal and small, others world ending. But Soaps make bad Blockbusters. Unfortunately, this is just more proof that Hollywood has infested the Industry.
In better hands this could've been MARVEL's Injustice. Would say that's civil war but it's been long enough for that not to be the go to anymore since that baby is about to become TWO DECADES OLD.
I distinctly remember getting that Captain America FCBD zero issue, and being super-pumped for a new run... then I got to the Hail Hydra... then I waited about 6 issues to see how Cap was going to get out of this one... and he never did. Haven't touched a new Marvel comic since. Time seems to have proven me wise.
It obviously wasn't going to last forever, folks. I actually like the build-up to Secret Empire more than than actual event. Why? Because I appreciate stories about intrigue, corruption and betrayal going on behind the scenes. So I won't defend the climax of the whole thing when the Evil Hydra Cap finally makes his move.
Gotta say I had already abandoned Marvel-Disney comics by that time but this story dropping was the moment I never cared for anything those disgusting hacks ever vomited out again and yet another reason I wouldn't give them another cent.
Before Secret Empire (SE), Captain America was my favorite Marvel character. He was one of the few that I could point to as actually standing for something. I still have all of Mark Gruenwalds (RIP) entire run, only missing 3 issues. At the time (of the SE arc) I wasn't buying as many comics anyway, I was short on funds. So the violation of Cap sealed the deal for me in walking away from Marvel Comics. The only thing I've gotten from Marvel since then was the World War Hulk (digital) storyarc. I did get some poetic justice in regards to the Secret Empire arc though, it was so badly received that the comics shops called it the "foot pile" or the "foot & a half pile" for how high they were stacked on store shelves, since no one bought them. To this day, that thought brings a little smile to my face. Now that I think on it, Secret Empire could be equated to Spider-mans Clone saga arc. Both were so poorly received that no one in their right mind acknowledges them. I'm an indie & Manga guy now. DC & Marvel haven't given me a reason to go back.
I grew up with Mark Greunwald's Cap run, but Cap has been absolute dog shit lately. The new run by JMS is pretty good so far (after one issue), so let's hope it's a return to form.
from the posts from most comic content creators on UA-cam, it seems like in the pursuit of reaching character milestones, most readers feel Marvel and D.C. have been strapping Millstones to all their characters, and wondering why their stories are so soggy!!!
I think Nick Spencer would have fixed what he broke with cap had he ended his run the way he wanted to. Instead of having the run forced to end so rapidly. Specifically with that plot of real steve remaining hydrafied while the one we have now is a cosmic cube creation. Which dang, saddens me to this day about that giant nugget i have to keep in the back of my head you know
Of course it sucks. Everyone knew it sucked then, but they tried to say "just wait, give it a chance." No. Do not give any chances to bad writing. Speak out against it immediately and tell them to stop.
You just don’t do this with Cap to begin with, back when I read Marvel I viewed Cap *AS* Marvel, to me he was the face of the Marvel universe. And these hacks go and do him dirty like this, it’s unforgivable, whoever was the editor on that comic should never work in the industry again.
In all honesty, I think if this plot twist had happened in 2008 and were better executed, it might have worked as a compelling story. As it was executed in it's time it was clear the writer/editor was trying to say "Screw you America for electing Donald Trump!", which is why it made national headlines. But I could see a version of the twist where the Hydra cap wasn't the real cap because his origin had been screwed with by Red Skull in their last cosmic style encounter and the real Cap was lost somewhere in the metaphysical ether, needing to be reclaimed. That would work as an arc in the ongoing title (not an event) if it weren't bogged down in 2016 politics. I'm not defending what they actually produced...I'm just saying the plot twist didn't HAVE to be a bad idea. Then Hydra cap could have continued to exist as a villain who was a twisted version of the real deal.
I think the worst thing about this story was the fact that it feels like it never really ended. At the beginning, I wasn't really bothered by the story because I assumed that the heroes would defeat the villains and the Cosmic Cube would restore things at the end. But, with the fact that they DIDN'T put things back, but rather made a fake Cap, it just feels like a story that needs finishing so we can get back to normal. Cap has been trash ever since. This was truly the shot that signaled the Rise of the SJW's. Now they're trying to just sneak things back to normal, but I kind of want to see them have to admit they did a crap job and fix things.
That’s the case with all the characters that got changed. Because the editors would rather write fan fiction and sell it. These changes won’t last because eventually someone is going to come in and change everything back to normal. I believe that editorial boards are trolling the fans.
I remember being totally lost in this event - Wes is right, there was no build up - and you had so much happening that i thought it was an altered reality story, like AGE OF APOLOCALYPSE or HOUSE OF M. So when you had things like LAS VEGAS being destroyed, or the HANK PYM/ULTRON thing, i didn't take it seriously.
Never read Secret Empire…guess I lucked-out. Made the mistake to give Captain America a shot with Sentinel of Liberty and Symbol of Truth. Not following the new series.
I like the idea of a mind controlled, retconned Cap being evil showing how his mind could be dangerous when used for evil. Did they execute it well? That's another story, but the premise isn't terrible. It can be done.
I remember trying to keep up with it when it first came out and it dragged on! It kinda reminded me of the movie "The Room" that it's good for being so horrible. IMO i only really cared when the X-Men were in it and Magneto/Emma did their thing
Oh Wes! What have you DONE. You know Tom King is out there right now licking his chops going...."YES! Thats the story I want to write! BATMAN killed his own parents!! HOW did I miss that?!?!?" 🙄 Lord help us!!
Tom king would one up it and put a real Oedipus complex in it Bruce kills father gets jiggy with mother kills her before or after getting knocked up that be the question.
@@theprincipalofficer_1Martha Wayne manipulated her son into killing Thomas Bc she resents them both, then fakes her death, gains immortality, and becomes Catwomans lover. DC, let me know if you want to hire me.
The turning point for Marvel's reputation. Like, this is, basically, the moment when they jumped the shark and kept on riding the shark until their film division joined in. A true 'Point of No Return', a 'Once More Unto the Breach' of crap if you will. EDIT: The worst part? I was following X-Men Blue and Red at the time, and they did a Secret Empire tie-in... So yeah. What was I thinking as a teen?
Honestly I like the idea of having a Captain America an agent of Hydra. It would've been a good issue of What If. But this book was completely a cop out and boring.
I haven't watched the video yet. But responding to the title. No shit. A way to improve Secret Empire is if they actually used the mentally unstable evil Captain America that already exists.
I guess I am able to ignore the blatant political overtones and ridiculous comparisons to modern day America. But I really enjoyed the Secret Empire build up and actual story until the conclusion. If it was just a what if story it prob would be considered in higher regards especially compared to most modern events which feel completely thrown together. Instead we got stand off and and entire captain American book dedicated to building the event. Cap being the ultimate villain made total sense. How he was able to manipulate the uncanny avengers, Deadpool, instigate the second civil war..etc this is exactly what I am looking for in an event. I get the frustration them ruining cap to do it tho.
To tell you the truth. I expected to hate Secret Empire, mostly because of all the hate around it. And when I read it, I absolutely LOVED IT! Call me fucking twisted or messed up however much you want. It was great read for me.
I’m old enough to remember the original secret empire in 73-74 but it was uneven back then as well because Englehart was trying to give the middle finger to Republicans because of watergate (Democrats didn’t spy on their political opponents 😉)while marvel editors were trying to minimize any damage to business because then most readers were below the age of 15 and comics was already viewed with suspicion and as something only for little kids ( the story and characters jumped back and forth as if you missed key issues like throwing in the XMen without any warning and forcing them into the storyline) and the end was with the Nixon stand in killing himself was horrible it spoke more of the writers lack of morals than the characters
I often come across a lot of Bronze Age Marvel that leaves me saying “damn the bullpen was filled with treehuggers back then. “ But at least they generally had more talent than guys(girls) you see today.
Sam Wilson Captain America run was good to me.And I always assumed that Hydra Steven Ropgers were the fake one and the real Captain America alwas has been trapped inside Kobik since the begin. But Secret Empire have many collateral damages like Rick Jones and Black Widow deaths and Natasha been replaced by a Red Room clone.And the Punisher sided with Nazi Captain was very out of the character too.
This ruined Deadpool by proxy (not his character cause he was actually like the best part of secret empire for me) but I mean wade getting hunted down by everyone and having no one by his side was annoying.
I still can't believe I wasted real American dollars on that pile of crap. I got the next writer's run on Captain America (mainly because of the cover art by ALEX FREAKING ROSS!) but I still didn't read it. If there's one thing that pleasantly surprised me about Secret Empire, it's that at least John Walker didn't go bad.
Nick Spencer’s run on Captain America ruined Captain America for me. It wasn’t just that Captain America was my favorite superhero (I liked him before it was cool to like unironically like Captain America), he was an aspirational character. I looked up to Captain America. Ta Nehisi Coates and whoever is writing Captain America were just nails in the coffin.
His claim you cant damage established characters, well how about Alan Scott and Tim Drake. I refuse to buy anything with my favorite Robin, unless all of this added retcon, is retconned.
Honestly when I first heard of it I thought it was going to be a deep dive into Hydra Cap's secret history in the Marvel age. What he had to do to cover his tracks, why did he work against Hydra's interests sometimes, the incredible stress of balancing Steve's inherent morality with a immoral mission, trying not to betray his friends and a cool new suit and shield. I envisioned the masterful S.H.I.E.L.D. retcons from Hickman's Secret Warriors with the pressure cooker uncover drama of The Americans. What we got was mustache twirling leading into an unimaginative event. I'm so glad I spend nothing on it. I jumped ship during the beginning of Dark Reign and that felt like a highpoint before I could burnout on the events.
This is the Captain America Steve Rogers story arch that made me done, after I was done reading this entire story arch, I haven't picked up another Marvel comic since. Fuck Marvel. This was too big to just forget like it's doomsday or captain falcon effing america. This is a planet sized Titanic that sinked every single positive thing I ever had about Marvel.
Haven't read Secret Empire since it came out, but I loved it. I didn't read the Cap ongoing by Spencer because I, like everyone with a brain, hated Hydra Cap. But in Secret Empire, I don't think they could have done anything more appealing to people like me than have the real Cap literally beat the shit out of Hydra Cap at the end. Wes, are you sure it's not the ongoing series by Spencer you hate? Maybe it's time I re read this story.
😅Marvel and DC are all about putting out content. Whether it’s good or bad , makes no scenes, or breaks the character, is not of concern anymore. The MCU took the same course after the end of phase 3.
while i agree with you secret empire was a snooze fest but the build up was good. this story turned helmut zemo into a hundred year old man with no explanation why he is still 30 something
Secret Empire was definitely trash but Nick Spencer's Steve Rogers Captain America run was pretty good prior to the event. I found it interesting seeing how Hydra Cap was moving all the different pieces on the board 🤷♂️
@@EvandroACruz i was getting both at the time and i hated the way Nick Spencer wrote Sam Cap. To me it just showed how little he thought of Sam Wilson. He was practically stuck only dealing with hood matters while Steve Rogers was making all the major moves. It was insulting and disrespectful imo. Sam even quit at the start of Secret Empire, as the cherry on top 🤦♂️
@@ssnakezz The early arcs with Sam dealing with the mantle was good to me.Of course that Secret Empire ruined this all in the end and the ending of the run was very mediocre.
@@EvandroACruz i didn't mind it in the beginning but making the entire run about him dealing with community issues felt really backhanded to me, as if he was just a Captain America for the hood instead of the entire country. Nick Spencer really couldn't separate Sam Wilson from that narrative and that felt pretty insulting imo
5:58 it’s true, I have read multiple articles explaining why the 45th president does not qualify as fascist. But fascist or not I have no intention of using his name lest he gain the immortality that comes with frequently spoken names.
Not Nick Spencer's best moment. I read waaaaaay back in high school just about everyone was talking about thjs run, from my friends to people who didn't read comics. I read the first two issues but dropped it because I didn't really like the story (also, being a broke teenager at the time I wanted to save the most money and invest it on stuff I'd actually like. Pretty sure DC Rebirth started during then). It's been a few years since Hydra Cap and Secret Empire and I really do think that that run had a huge dent in Spencer's rep. This is just me but I believe he's more than redeemed himself with his run on Amazing Spider-Man (despite the editorial meddling at the tail end of that run).
You know what I am just gonna make my points and not listen to this one. First off it did not destroy Captain America sales. My sales were fine during the series. The overall storyline did pretty good sales wise. The tie-ins were a bit dubious here and there which was not a shock. And of course the BIGGEST PROBLEM here is that everyone fails to note this was not THE actual Cpt America in the story. Go read Avengers Standoff, the storyline before this, and you will find out this Cap is a creation of Zemo through the Cosmic Cube. So all the bitching about destroying a character is disingenuous as they fail to make that point. When all was said and done the real Cap shows and the storyline concludes with victory to keep it simply. I have to say despite Nick Spencer's politics leaking into his writing, his Cap stuff was a hell of alot better then his Spider-Man. Which I found boring and going into mega convoluted territory just to attempt to erase Sins Past because a few Spider-Man fans noses were out of join about that. If someone can explain that mess of a story to me feel free cause I HATED IT. Cap began to really tank when Cotes came on the books as it become very political, oozing with Cotes biases, and just got boring with bad artwork. Spencer's at least took some chances and made people take note. Granted a MASSIVE AMOUNT of them over-reacted to the panel at end of issue #2 with no intention of reading issue #3. I read Gruenwald stories, most notably his last one on his run, that were worse then this. So whatever Wes and Dok think here I don't care. I read it. I didn't feel it destroyed the character. You can blame that on Cotes who came later. WTF20.
Thank you. I am not sure why we needed to revisit this just to shit on it. DC has about 6 "event" series in their history 10 times worse or more boring then Secret Empire. I think better ways to use our time.
I actually like Secret Empire still. I enjoyed the build up, I liked the event itself. I agree it was pretty 2016, Trump is evil-ish, but i never understood the crying about Cap being ruined. Evil versions of heroes is as old as comics itself and they definitely didn't half ass it.
I think the difference was at first they claimed it wasn’t going to be an evil copy and it was going to be that the actual Cap had been secretly evil for decades. They did go on to do the evil copy route, so you have to wonder if the reception would have been better if they hadn’t started out with the whole “It’s not an evil copy! This is the real Captain America!” spiel.
I didn't read Secret Empire. But the issue that showed Cap saying "Hail Hydra." at the end was really good IMO. He could've been a secret agent for the U.S. to infiltrate Hydra, a Homeland meets The Man from UNCLE kind of thing or something like that. A blonde hair, blue eyed guy would've made sense considering. It had possibilities, is all I'm saying.
You guys are just wrong about Hydra Cap being the real Captain America. The story revealed that the sentient cosmic cube created a fake Captain America for Red Skull from a non-existent timeline who beleived in Hydra and that backstory, it didn't actually exist. And the real cap was preserved in a pocket reality created by a the sentient cosmic cube and finally escaped the pocket reality to defeat the fake hydra cap, he was pulled from a fake alternate time line into the main by the cosmic cube.
That's not true that's "your" interpretation of the entire story arch, not the actual interpretation. Stop shilling for Marvel like those lame marvel and MCU stans.
Hold on a minute.
I thought Hydra Cap was created by someone using the Cosmic Cube to make Cap a Hydra sleeper agent all along.
Even if that is the case, not correcting things and leaving Cap a Hydra sleeper agent is still a bad ending.
Exactly and there was no excuse. If the cosmic cube could do it, it could undo it, yet they refused to. Oh and and this laid the seeds for Punisher going downhill since they made it so that Frank works with criminals as long as he gets what he wants.
It is going to be a VERY LONG 12 Years before Steve Rodgers becomes Public Domain.
The sick and funny part about that is It's Still less of a Wait to Have Good Not Hydra Agent Steve Rodgers than it is to see Peter and MJ's marriage restored.
@@nobodyknowsforsureOh, didn’t know that about the Punisher. That’s really lame as Frank always used to make sure that any „villain allies“ he ever encountered would meet a fitting end as he isn’t really about „the enemy of my enemy“ at all (after all, some of his enemies are the few people he respects as he is aware that he himself is not a hero).
It’s been 5 years? Poor Cap still hasn’t recover.
Given the state of the comic industry. I doubt he will ever recover from it.
And as a true fan of Cap, I will forever ignore this bullshit until it's undone.
@@tacticianAlexandraProbably, but maybe Marvel will wise up before it's too late. Maybe!
I hope you like waiting for 12 Years until Steve Rodgers becomes Public Domain@@charlesws7825
Hydra Cap is a really, really visual moment that turns everything fans ever loved upside down. It’s probably comparable to „the slap“ from Antman. It has become part of what people remember really well and now defines what they expect.
Honestly, this is worse than One More Day for Spider-Man. At least with ASM he's had some success after OMD, but when they took a character made by two Jewish guys and made him into a Nazi, that broke him. They can't even fix it apart from rebooting the whole thing. And even then, he's fundamentally broken.
And as far as the making a point about current affairs for the time, it's all based on a lie. There is no rise fo fascism unless you buy into the TDS. Everyone right of Mao is a fascist to them. So the actual point of the story is based upon a false narrative. It's ultimately hot air. It's nothing. You pay 5 bucks an issue for empty words by an angry gray haired ponytail Leftoid. Thats why it's aged like milk and will only be remembered for its controversy.
Spidey always sells books even in your moments.
There are ways to criticize public figures and those who support them. Secret Empire picked some of the worst ones. They had Captain America, one of the most well known and liked after the MCU raised him from being a perennial B lister, become a discount Nazi. Marvel buried Cap's reputation so deep that no one outside of perhaps the Marvel bubble would defend the story. Even when Bud Light sank its brand, it still had its supporters. As I like to say, if you stuck around after this, you got what you deserved.
When the Rob Liefeld Cap is viewed better than this, you know something is wrong. 😂😮😢
I"ve always said the Secret Empire could have worked.....as part of Secret Invasion, thus explaining away perfectly 'Captain America' acting so strange.
Its kind of like how the show "Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes" handled Secret Invasion: From the beginning the audience knew that Cap had been replaced, the real story was seeing how long it would take the rest of the Avengers (and the world at large) to notice. They even had him switch from his 'Classic' costume to the more 'Militaristic/MCU' style costume as a subtle hint to his change.
One thing that really screams, “I have no concept of the character and what he represents, and I likewise have no idea or concern about what the fans want and what the character means to them,” is the writers being shocked that the idea got so much backlash. Seriously!?
Speaking of tone-deaf, weren’t there jerks responding to the people rightfully pointing out, "Captain America was created by two Jewish men, so it's warped to make him a Nazi analogue!" by claiming the critics were all racist or something? Some people are warped.
Have you read Superior Spider-Man (2012) #9, aka the subtle character assassination of Peter Parker.
@@VarjoPira No, I’m not familiar with that one. What did they do to him?
Apparently Peter Parker was ready to take the life of a little girl in order to avoid any chance of Otto spotting him still residing inside his brain.@@karaoconnoraliasraidra
@@VarjoPira Oh, that’s disgusting! Why do they keep insisting on making their classic heroes look atrocious? 🤦♀️
When you put writers on series who want to be Alan Moore, hate what the writing about and want burn the idea so tiktic or Twitter will give them props for taking it to the right and command doesn't care what the writers might be destroying like the frank castle or Peter and Mary Jane you end up in this quagmire of things that can't be fixed....
I remember that secret empire was the most freeing story marvel had told in years for me, in that I didn’t read it, any of it. I’d become hooked on comics and the increasingly bad events that both big companies had been churning out but with that “Hail Hydra” I was set free. I skipped any book that covered or linked to the story, there was plenty of spoilers out there so it’s not like I couldn’t find out what was happening, but for a few click bait titles that I scanned over I didn’t even do that bare minimum, I simply didn’t make mine marvel for the months the story ran.
I never went back to the volume of books that I had been reading before this story, like a spell had been broken, I followed less and less till I walked away from American mainstream stuff altogether. That really is a hell of a legacy now that I think about it.
Same. I read all of 2025 Secret Wars, but once All New All Different Marvel hit, I stopped reading Marvel comics (and comics in general for a while) due to how bad those comics were.
Since I heard about Secret Empire, I have also realized that the sheer knowledge of Hydra Cap just stops me from considering to read a Cap comic. Some people currently are hyped for JMS‘s new Cap run, but I don’t feel it … just no pull to even give it a try. It feels like if I would read any new Cap book, I would make Hydra Cap a part of my personal canon … and I just don’t want that. That and I‘m also convinced any new Cap book will ultimately just be bad anyway due to how politics in comics work nowadays.
Coastes made this garbage look like a masterpiece
5 years already? Lmao 😂 at least Cap's wife didn't die despising him. Ah the iconoclasts strike again 😀
A reference to the butchering of Frank Castle's Punisher?. Steve Rogers, Frank Castle, Peter Parker all done wrong by Marvel Comics.
If it helps any Cap fans -- and as a fan speaking, not much does! -- Marvel has officially been calling Hydra Cap someone from a parallel universe. Some damn how. And in spite of the bullshit Cosmic Cube 'going back in time so Hydra can indoctrinate Steve' god level contrivances. If that's so, Marvel somehow needs to establish that it's the real Steve who was somehow kept, uh, wherever thanks to Kobik. And by the way if Kobik supposedly fixed all the damage from Secret Empire, right? It would be nice to have the original Black Widow brought back to life, too. (And what the hell, Marvel has done weirder shit. Cap got blasted at the end of "Civil War", but just kidding, he was actually in another dimension or something anyhow!)
The ONLY thing Marvel can do is erase all that stupidity to total oblivion, but of course they'll only do that if they're that close to being forced to close their doors and have an out of business sale. There's still too much derangement among the 'creatives' and the assholes in the highest offices might be too scared of SJW backlash, and that would mean negative press from the 'progressive' shills.
Like I said somewhere else, Marvel needs to bite the bullet and stop half-assing it. GO ALL THE WAY ERASING THAT STUPIDITY. (Oh, it would help erasing "One More Day", too.) I'll never buy a new Marvel comic until they do! 🇺🇸
This just goes to show, the comic industry has zero respect for it iconic characters for a very long time.
Not only did they make a wish on the dragon balls, to turn Captain america evil but made it seem like oh hey. No person could ever be as good as Captain America was, no soul that pure exists. A soul like that can only exist, if you wish it into being by reality bending powers. With now a fake running around using his name. Showing once more. They don't understand good or evil, if not simply having a desire to twist turn and ruin everything that is good and beloved in this world.
I am one of the few people who maintained this event could've worked if they stuck with the original plan with secret empire and have this cap just be brainwashed and by the end of the event we have Captain America basically go back to normal and redeemed himself and hydra cap goes away an we don't have to deal with hydra cap ever again at least in my opinion.
To me Hydra Cap always was the fake and the real Steve always has been trapped inside Kobik since the begin.
@@EvandroACruz I can understand that
I love the fact how people have quickly forgotten that the REAL Cap is locked away in a prison and the fake imaginary Cap is out running around.
Hydra cap was killed by Selene during ta nehisi Coates run on cap sadly 😞
@@CryptidZeker415Woww I just looked that up! She really melted him😅
Is it the real Cap?
@@CryptidZeker415 - we assume he was. We see him sweat profusely. We don’t see a corpse
I'd rather look at it this way. Marvel and it's heroes as we knew them even going back to Cap, Namor and the first Human Torch's debut in Timely Comics was annihilated in Secret Wars 2015. Looking at it from a certain perspective, the 'rebooted 616' and all of its heroes aren't the same characters. Even if they had virtually the same history and lore (mostly), we're talking about literally all new and different.
I know that's more than a little sad to see it that way, but considering how shit Marvel has become, maybe it's for the best that the original Cap, FF, Spidey, Black Widow and the Avengers and everyone are resting in peace!
Secret Empire was the unofficial death of the 616 Marvel Universe as the fans knew it. If you’re a collector in your fifties *raises hand* then this is a George Orwell way to sign off on your collection.
It’s almost surreal because from that point on the Marvel Universe was never the same. It is the world outside your window, full of tearing things down and leaving it disfigured.
In 2023, the post Axel Alonso crew the circle is almost complete. The sales are a reflection that fewer fans are willing to spend $$$$ on a book that rips their favorite character.
I can’t help but think there’s a certain immaturity in the world today. We victimize the assailant and make the defendant into the villain. Stan Lee & Jack Kirby inspired to do better thru these heroes. Today’s creators have made everything a little darker. No one is likable.
Darker as in Miles Morales?
@@seminolewind158I’m talking about George Orwell…and post Axel Alonso editorial staff who have hired terrible writers and driven sales in the toilet. 🚽
Please read carefully before commenting…
It's always good to hear from Doc. Anyways, I love Cap. That's really hard to break. But they came pretty damn close. It was a dumb idea from the jump. As I see it, they clearly wanted Sam as Cap, just because he's black. There's a word for that. But they could have said Cap was cloned, was a Skrull, any number of things. But no, they didn't want to dump on Cap as a character, but America as an ideal. How's that working out for us? Not good. There's the idea that not only white men, but mostly them, are inherently bad somehow is just disgusting. The drooling idiot in the white house recently celebrated the Birthday of George Floyd, a career criminal who was used as an excuse to burn and murder across the nation. Which is fine. Until it isn't. Years back idiots were protesting Columbus of all people. How does ripping down statues of the man help your cause? It doesn't. But they like tearing things down with no backup plan.
What if Steve had been compromised by say Modok and needed a few months off? And Sam, Clint, Bucky and John Walker all tried to replace him? Yes, basically Reign of the Superman, but Clark came out of that intact. Because he's the first and the best? Instead they just took a big dump on Steve and ran away.
I’ve watched comic reviews of Secret Empire when it was released, and the only good thing about this event is the return of the REAL Captain America and him using Mjölnir (Thor’s hammer) to defeat Hydra Cap.
Marvel and DC comics do events because Events make movies. They have a beginning, middle and end with high stakes and action. Most comics are done like Soap Operas, where threads and arcs are started in the middle or near the end of the previous arc/thread, that way the stories don't really end, there's always something more to read. And these arcs vary in intensity. Some are personal and small, others world ending. But Soaps make bad Blockbusters. Unfortunately, this is just more proof that Hollywood has infested the Industry.
In better hands this could've been MARVEL's Injustice.
Would say that's civil war but it's been long enough for that not to be the go to anymore since that baby is about to become TWO DECADES OLD.
I distinctly remember getting that Captain America FCBD zero issue, and being super-pumped for a new run... then I got to the Hail Hydra... then I waited about 6 issues to see how Cap was going to get out of this one... and he never did. Haven't touched a new Marvel comic since.
Time seems to have proven me wise.
Honestly at the time I thought they did it to make the Falcon Captain America more popular.
Kind of like they're tearing down Peter Parker to build up Miles Morales.
I tried sticking to Captain America but I had to get rid of those issues
Even JMS new Cap run seems bad
Marvel needs new leadership
It obviously wasn't going to last forever, folks. I actually like the build-up to Secret Empire more than than actual event. Why? Because I appreciate stories about intrigue, corruption and betrayal going on behind the scenes. So I won't defend the climax of the whole thing when the Evil Hydra Cap finally makes his move.
Gotta say I had already abandoned Marvel-Disney comics by that time but this story dropping was the moment I never cared for anything those disgusting hacks ever vomited out again and yet another reason I wouldn't give them another cent.
The only secret empire I consider cannon is the Engleheart one.
Before Secret Empire (SE), Captain America was my favorite Marvel character. He was one of the few that I could point to as actually standing for something. I still have all of Mark Gruenwalds (RIP) entire run, only missing 3 issues. At the time (of the SE arc) I wasn't buying as many comics anyway, I was short on funds. So the violation of Cap sealed the deal for me in walking away from Marvel Comics. The only thing I've gotten from Marvel since then was the World War Hulk (digital) storyarc. I did get some poetic justice in regards to the Secret Empire arc though, it was so badly received that the comics shops called it the "foot pile" or the "foot & a half pile" for how high they were stacked on store shelves, since no one bought them. To this day, that thought brings a little smile to my face.
Now that I think on it, Secret Empire could be equated to Spider-mans Clone saga arc. Both were so poorly received that no one in their right mind acknowledges them.
I'm an indie & Manga guy now. DC & Marvel haven't given me a reason to go back.
I grew up with Mark Greunwald's Cap run, but Cap has been absolute dog shit lately. The new run by JMS is pretty good so far (after one issue), so let's hope it's a return to form.
Didn't JMS make Cap say the infamous "No, YOU move" speech from Civil War I?
from the posts from most comic content creators on UA-cam, it seems like in the pursuit of reaching character milestones, most readers feel Marvel and D.C. have been strapping Millstones to all their characters, and wondering why their stories are so soggy!!!
Bleak depressing tear down of jack and Stan's characters
I think Nick Spencer would have fixed what he broke with cap had he ended his run the way he wanted to. Instead of having the run forced to end so rapidly. Specifically with that plot of real steve remaining hydrafied while the one we have now is a cosmic cube creation. Which dang, saddens me to this day about that giant nugget i have to keep in the back of my head you know
that confuses me because i always assumed hydra cap was a brainwashed cap from the very beginning.
How could they not just undo it with the Cosmic cube? Am I missing something here??
@@nobodyknowsforsure good question i wonder about that as well
@@TevyaSmolka To me Hydra Cap always was the fake and the real Steve always has been trapped inside Kobik since the begin.
Nah. Spencer is actually just a sh*tty writer. People only like him because he had Pete and MJ making out every other page during his ASM run.
Oh God, i did forget the existence of Ultron-Pym.
Of course it sucks. Everyone knew it sucked then, but they tried to say "just wait, give it a chance." No. Do not give any chances to bad writing. Speak out against it immediately and tell them to stop.
What is Secret Empire ? I don't know what it is.
Captain America was a nazi all along.
It's infamous even I have heard of it Nazi Cap and I am Marvel normie.
@@PrivateCitizen84 I know, I was joking.
@@PrivateCitizen84the point being it doesnt deserve to be remembered.
It means the empire accomplished its goal.
Yes I know you know. I just had to.
This storyline made me quit marvel comics altogether and I have not picked up a Marvel comic since
Bruce wayne murdered his parents for attention! Oh God please delete that dont give Dc any ideas
Batman is an overrated gary stu. He's one Of the main reasons Gotham City remains a shithole.
Yeah, Marvel no longer has the ability to build up to an event or crossover.
Current Marvel = Tofu Dreg Comics
Secret Empire is a vile assassination job on a beloved character and the worst part is, it succeeded
4:40 So marvel let their TDS get the better of them and this is a result. Got it.
TDS?
You just don’t do this with Cap to begin with, back when I read Marvel I viewed Cap *AS* Marvel, to me he was the face of the Marvel universe. And these hacks go and do him dirty like this, it’s unforgivable, whoever was the editor on that comic should never work in the industry again.
I’ll say one thing, at least the memes people made from that panel were really funny lol.
In all honesty, I think if this plot twist had happened in 2008 and were better executed, it might have worked as a compelling story. As it was executed in it's time it was clear the writer/editor was trying to say "Screw you America for electing Donald Trump!", which is why it made national headlines. But I could see a version of the twist where the Hydra cap wasn't the real cap because his origin had been screwed with by Red Skull in their last cosmic style encounter and the real Cap was lost somewhere in the metaphysical ether, needing to be reclaimed. That would work as an arc in the ongoing title (not an event) if it weren't bogged down in 2016 politics. I'm not defending what they actually produced...I'm just saying the plot twist didn't HAVE to be a bad idea. Then Hydra cap could have continued to exist as a villain who was a twisted version of the real deal.
I bet this put a smile on DCs face when this malarky came out.
This years new reboot Captain America #1 was honestly very good. I’m excited for the new series. Glad they brought in a good writer like JMS.
I think the worst thing about this story was the fact that it feels like it never really ended. At the beginning, I wasn't really bothered by the story because I assumed that the heroes would defeat the villains and the Cosmic Cube would restore things at the end. But, with the fact that they DIDN'T put things back, but rather made a fake Cap, it just feels like a story that needs finishing so we can get back to normal. Cap has been trash ever since. This was truly the shot that signaled the Rise of the SJW's. Now they're trying to just sneak things back to normal, but I kind of want to see them have to admit they did a crap job and fix things.
When letting Cap stay dead after Civil War starts to sound like a better idea...
this Kinda Killed Cap ultimately. However... I still was hanging in there to see where it would go. nice Plot. perhaps the execution
Let’s not forget the finale of this series is when the milkshake incident happened.
That’s the case with all the characters that got changed. Because the editors would rather write fan fiction and sell it. These changes won’t last because eventually someone is going to come in and change everything back to normal. I believe that editorial boards are trolling the fans.
They'll Stop laughing and Trolling when Serious Competition comes Knocking and outselling them
I remember being totally lost in this event - Wes is right, there was no build up - and you had so much happening that i thought it was an altered reality story, like AGE OF APOLOCALYPSE or HOUSE OF M. So when you had things like LAS VEGAS being destroyed, or the HANK PYM/ULTRON thing, i didn't take it seriously.
Hahaha "stink bomb" is right! I wanted that to be good but should have known better.
Never read Secret Empire…guess I lucked-out. Made the mistake to give Captain America a shot with Sentinel of Liberty and Symbol of Truth. Not following the new series.
you weren't missing much because secret empire was a complete waste of time in my opinion.
I like the idea of a mind controlled, retconned Cap being evil showing how his mind could be dangerous when used for evil. Did they execute it well? That's another story, but the premise isn't terrible. It can be done.
I remember trying to keep up with it when it first came out and it dragged on! It kinda reminded me of the movie "The Room" that it's good for being so horrible. IMO i only really cared when the X-Men were in it and Magneto/Emma did their thing
Oh Wes! What have you DONE. You know Tom King is out there right now licking his chops going...."YES! Thats the story I want to write! BATMAN killed his own parents!! HOW did I miss that?!?!?" 🙄 Lord help us!!
Tom king would one up it and put a real Oedipus complex in it Bruce kills father gets jiggy with mother kills her before or after getting knocked up that be the question.
@@theprincipalofficer_1Martha Wayne manipulated her son into killing Thomas Bc she resents them both, then fakes her death, gains immortality, and becomes Catwomans lover.
DC, let me know if you want to hire me.
This is a Reminder that Captain America Steve Rodgers will become Public Domain in about 12 Years.
Why do I bring this up? Oh...no reason.
The turning point for Marvel's reputation.
Like, this is, basically, the moment when they jumped the shark and kept on riding the shark until their film division joined in. A true 'Point of No Return', a 'Once More Unto the Breach' of crap if you will.
EDIT: The worst part? I was following X-Men Blue and Red at the time, and they did a Secret Empire tie-in... So yeah. What was I thinking as a teen?
Honestly I like the idea of having a Captain America an agent of Hydra. It would've been a good issue of What If. But this book was completely a cop out and boring.
I haven't watched the video yet. But responding to the title. No shit.
A way to improve Secret Empire is if they actually used the mentally unstable evil Captain America that already exists.
I liked the idea but the execution was awful especially the ending
I guess I am able to ignore the blatant political overtones and ridiculous comparisons to modern day America. But I really enjoyed the Secret Empire build up and actual story until the conclusion. If it was just a what if story it prob would be considered in higher regards especially compared to most modern events which feel completely thrown together. Instead we got stand off and and entire captain American book dedicated to building the event. Cap being the ultimate villain made total sense. How he was able to manipulate the uncanny avengers, Deadpool, instigate the second civil war..etc this is exactly what I am looking for in an event. I get the frustration them ruining cap to do it tho.
It was a commentary on America and the conservative control of history wes hates anything “out of character” whatever that means
Rick Grayson was bad. But, Bruce Jones’ Nightwing is one of the worst runs of all time.
GREAT 👌 THINKING CRITICAL MARVEL COMICS DID CAPTAIN MARVEL RUINED HIM.
GREAT THINKING CRITICAL MARVEL SECRET EMPIRE COMICS BACKLASH.
@12:10 - You idiots!! What have you done??!? Don't give them ideas 😆😭
Please don’t give DC ideas about Batman, ha!
Character destruction at its finest seriously hate it when the big 2 do that and they seem to keep repeating it.
"We had no hope then we had hope then we lost hope. We should really put a bell on Hope."
Cap is nazi adjacent in the same way Mags is female adjacent.
I have A question: Which show was better: Superboy or Smallville ?
It would be Lois & Clark v Smallville for me and I'd pick L&C as he was a really nice guy & suited up.
Smallville
@@Dolan_waddick23 The Superboy show had certain aspects over Smallville
For example, I liked the fact, that, They casted A actually redhead for Lana.
Neither. CW Supergirl is vastly superior in everyway, shape, and form.
@@TheBlueBlur100 Nice one. Now, let's be serious.
To tell you the truth. I expected to hate Secret Empire, mostly because of all the hate around it. And when I read it, I absolutely LOVED IT! Call me fucking twisted or messed up however much you want. It was great read for me.
I’m old enough to remember the original secret empire in 73-74 but it was uneven back then as well because Englehart was trying to give the middle finger to Republicans because of watergate (Democrats didn’t spy on their political opponents 😉)while marvel editors were trying to minimize any damage to business because then most readers were below the age of 15 and comics was already viewed with suspicion and as something only for little kids ( the story and characters jumped back and forth as if you missed key issues like throwing in the XMen without any warning and forcing them into the storyline) and the end was with the Nixon stand in killing himself was horrible it spoke more of the writers lack of morals than the characters
I often come across a lot of Bronze Age Marvel that leaves me saying “damn the bullpen was filled with treehuggers back then. “ But at least they generally had more talent than guys(girls) you see today.
I've enjoyed a lot of Steve Englehart stories but agree that his Captain America run was far from a high point.
There killing moon knight and it's the one of there best book out.Marvel is over.
Moon Knight was ruined by years Of dickless cucked writers.
It’s still better than everything since.
I knew in that moment captain America was a true hero.
Sam Wilson Captain America run was good to me.And I always assumed that Hydra Steven Ropgers were the fake one and the real Captain America alwas has been trapped inside Kobik since the begin. But Secret Empire have many collateral damages like Rick Jones and Black Widow deaths and Natasha been replaced by a Red Room clone.And the Punisher sided with Nazi Captain was very out of the character too.
The Secret Empire writer must have REALLY hated The Punisher to make THAT happen.
@@louisduarte8763 And Rick Jones too.
This ruined Deadpool by proxy (not his character cause he was actually like the best part of secret empire for me) but I mean wade getting hunted down by everyone and having no one by his side was annoying.
I still can't believe I wasted real American dollars on that pile of crap. I got the next writer's run on Captain America (mainly because of the cover art by ALEX FREAKING ROSS!) but I still didn't read it. If there's one thing that pleasantly surprised me about Secret Empire, it's that at least John Walker didn't go bad.
Nick Spencer’s run on Captain America ruined Captain America for me. It wasn’t just that Captain America was my favorite superhero (I liked him before it was cool to like unironically like Captain America), he was an aspirational character. I looked up to Captain America. Ta Nehisi Coates and whoever is writing Captain America were just nails in the coffin.
His claim you cant damage established characters, well how about Alan Scott and Tim Drake. I refuse to buy anything with my favorite Robin, unless all of this added retcon, is retconned.
Honestly when I first heard of it I thought it was going to be a deep dive into Hydra Cap's secret history in the Marvel age. What he had to do to cover his tracks, why did he work against Hydra's interests sometimes, the incredible stress of balancing Steve's inherent morality with a immoral mission, trying not to betray his friends and a cool new suit and shield.
I envisioned the masterful S.H.I.E.L.D. retcons from Hickman's Secret Warriors with the pressure cooker uncover drama of The Americans. What we got was mustache twirling leading into an unimaginative event. I'm so glad I spend nothing on it.
I jumped ship during the beginning of Dark Reign and that felt like a highpoint before I could burnout on the events.
This is the Captain America Steve Rogers story arch that made me done, after I was done reading this entire story arch, I haven't picked up another Marvel comic since.
Fuck Marvel. This was too big to just forget like it's doomsday or captain falcon effing america. This is a planet sized Titanic that sinked every single positive thing I ever had about Marvel.
Haven't read Secret Empire since it came out, but I loved it. I didn't read the Cap ongoing by Spencer because I, like everyone with a brain, hated Hydra Cap. But in Secret Empire, I don't think they could have done anything more appealing to people like me than have the real Cap literally beat the shit out of Hydra Cap at the end. Wes, are you sure it's not the ongoing series by Spencer you hate? Maybe it's time I re read this story.
😅Marvel and DC are all about putting out content. Whether it’s good or bad , makes no scenes, or breaks the character, is not of concern anymore. The MCU took the same course after the end of phase 3.
while i agree with you secret empire was a snooze fest but the build up was good. this story turned helmut zemo into a hundred year old man with no explanation why he is still 30 something
Secret Empire was definitely trash but Nick Spencer's Steve Rogers Captain America run was pretty good prior to the event. I found it interesting seeing how Hydra Cap was moving all the different pieces on the board 🤷♂️
To me just Sam Wilson Captain America was good.
@@EvandroACruz i was getting both at the time and i hated the way Nick Spencer wrote Sam Cap. To me it just showed how little he thought of Sam Wilson. He was practically stuck only dealing with hood matters while Steve Rogers was making all the major moves. It was insulting and disrespectful imo. Sam even quit at the start of Secret Empire, as the cherry on top 🤦♂️
@@ssnakezz The early arcs with Sam dealing with the mantle was good to me.Of course that Secret Empire ruined this all in the end and the ending of the run was very mediocre.
@@EvandroACruz i didn't mind it in the beginning but making the entire run about him dealing with community issues felt really backhanded to me, as if he was just a Captain America for the hood instead of the entire country. Nick Spencer really couldn't separate Sam Wilson from that narrative and that felt pretty insulting imo
I read this all the way through back when it came out. It was a more interesting read than Civil War 2. But yeah it still isn’t good.
Hydra Cap was my Rubicon.
The MCU is going to use this storyline
Cap is dead, they destroyed him.
Hail Hydra - _Dial Disney!_
Awesome work guys
This is just more proof that even the worst Marvel stories are still better than anything DC has ever done.
Yes😂😂😂
5:58 it’s true, I have read multiple articles explaining why the 45th president does not qualify as fascist.
But fascist or not I have no intention of using his name lest he gain the immortality that comes with frequently spoken names.
Wow you're so cool
Not Nick Spencer's best moment. I read waaaaaay back in high school just about everyone was talking about thjs run, from my friends to people who didn't read comics. I read the first two issues but dropped it because I didn't really like the story (also, being a broke teenager at the time I wanted to save the most money and invest it on stuff I'd actually like. Pretty sure DC Rebirth started during then). It's been a few years since Hydra Cap and Secret Empire and I really do think that that run had a huge dent in Spencer's rep. This is just me but I believe he's more than redeemed himself with his run on Amazing Spider-Man (despite the editorial meddling at the tail end of that run).
You know what I am just gonna make my points and not listen to this one. First off it did not destroy Captain America sales. My sales were fine during the series. The overall storyline did pretty good sales wise. The tie-ins were a bit dubious here and there which was not a shock. And of course the BIGGEST PROBLEM here is that everyone fails to note this was not THE actual Cpt America in the story. Go read Avengers Standoff, the storyline before this, and you will find out this Cap is a creation of Zemo through the Cosmic Cube. So all the bitching about destroying a character is disingenuous as they fail to make that point. When all was said and done the real Cap shows and the storyline concludes with victory to keep it simply. I have to say despite Nick Spencer's politics leaking into his writing, his Cap stuff was a hell of alot better then his Spider-Man. Which I found boring and going into mega convoluted territory just to attempt to erase Sins Past because a few Spider-Man fans noses were out of join about that. If someone can explain that mess of a story to me feel free cause I HATED IT. Cap began to really tank when Cotes came on the books as it become very political, oozing with Cotes biases, and just got boring with bad artwork. Spencer's at least took some chances and made people take note. Granted a MASSIVE AMOUNT of them over-reacted to the panel at end of issue #2 with no intention of reading issue #3. I read Gruenwald stories, most notably his last one on his run, that were worse then this. So whatever Wes and Dok think here I don't care. I read it. I didn't feel it destroyed the character. You can blame that on Cotes who came later. WTF20.
Thank you. I am not sure why we needed to revisit this just to shit on it. DC has about 6 "event" series in their history 10 times worse or more boring then Secret Empire. I think better ways to use our time.
I actually like Secret Empire still. I enjoyed the build up, I liked the event itself. I agree it was pretty 2016, Trump is evil-ish, but i never understood the crying about Cap being ruined. Evil versions of heroes is as old as comics itself and they definitely didn't half ass it.
I think the difference was at first they claimed it wasn’t going to be an evil copy and it was going to be that the actual Cap had been secretly evil for decades. They did go on to do the evil copy route, so you have to wonder if the reception would have been better if they hadn’t started out with the whole “It’s not an evil copy! This is the real Captain America!” spiel.
I didn't read Secret Empire. But the issue that showed Cap saying "Hail Hydra." at the end was really good IMO. He could've been a secret agent for the U.S. to infiltrate Hydra, a Homeland meets The Man from UNCLE kind of thing or something like that. A blonde hair, blue eyed guy would've made sense considering. It had possibilities, is all I'm saying.
You guys are just wrong about Hydra Cap being the real Captain America. The story revealed that the sentient cosmic cube created a fake Captain America for Red Skull from a non-existent timeline who beleived in Hydra and that backstory, it didn't actually exist. And the real cap was preserved in a pocket reality created by a the sentient cosmic cube and finally escaped the pocket reality to defeat the fake hydra cap, he was pulled from a fake alternate time line into the main by the cosmic cube.
That's not true that's "your" interpretation of the entire story arch, not the actual interpretation. Stop shilling for Marvel like those lame marvel and MCU stans.
SECRET EMPIRE WAS AWSOME