One thing I liked about this series is this: back in Origins, when Loghain responds to a suggestion of requesting help from Orlais to end the Blight by snapping back immediately and yelling "Not a chance! We didn't kick them out 30 years ago to welcome them back now with open arms". This (back on Origins) might make you think that he is paranoid. But then you play through Inquisition, get to the Winter Palace, and realize that Loghain was right on the money with that one - their ruling class has no concept of honor.
Even more so when you consider the fact that Orlais once betrayed Nevarra immediately after the Third Blight. Cailan was a fool. Of all the places to ask for reinforcement from, he chose Orlais - the very nation that enslaved Fereldan for 70+ years in the last century.
@@lelouche25 Then why just Orlais? Why didn't they ask reinforcement from Free Marches or Antiva? According to Varric in DA2 prologue, the journey between Kirkwall and Gwaren was only two weeks and that was with a storm. And the Grey Wardens had years to prepare for the Blight.
@@lelouche25 They fortunately seem to be getting easier and easier tho. First Blight was 200 years, second was 30, third and fourth were less than 10 years each So that's a good thing, I suppose
Loghain is definitely my favorite villain and I am sad that I can't bring myself to recruit him permanently due to losing Alistair and how his fate ends up if you do. I love seeing him be hit HARD with just how badly he fucked up and how he just accepts that no one will ever favor or trust him, but still does whatever he can to make up for what he did. I feel like he isn't talked about nearly enough which is sad as if there was anyone who could relate to Solas in Dreadwolf...it very well could be Loghain who knows what it's like to turn into a monster trying to protect and revive the land you love.
If you harden Alistair and convince him to take the throne Alistair will instead quit the wardens to become king instead of becoming a drunk. Its my favorite resolution honestly =x
Does anyone else want to find out how Hawke and Loghain became friends? We know how it happened for Stroud and Alistair, but I *really* want to find out how a survivor of Loghain's betrayal and Loghain himself became friends. Somebody write *that* short story.
I would say they both know what it's like to be a pariah figure. Regardless of whichever side you choose with Hawke, they becomes as Infamous as famous.
I personally do believe that is just a flaw of the dialogue design, Loghain likely was just his contact nothing more. But given the likes of Threnn(inquisition quartermaster who insist on Loghain was right no matter his fate) still exist even after 10 years, it won’t be too out of character for Hawke to still respect him(he could say that Loghain did what he though was the best, all that)
Yeah I don't think they really thought that through very much when they made it possible for him to have a cameo in DA2, and then carried it into DAI. Even for a mage Hawke not personally at Ostagar, Carver still would have been. I guess that was just another victim of the short development time.
Loghain in my opinion is the best written character in the series with a really beautiful redemption arc as time goes on. Ending as the senior Warden in Orlais is too perfect.
Tbf not like he had much information to begin. How was he supposed to know that Grey Wardens are the only ones who can kill archdemons, when the Order kept that a secret from their own recruits? Even Alistair didn't find out about the Ultimate Sacrifice until Riordan told hin.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 YES! YES! I've had this argument so many times. Everything Loghain did was right GIVEN THE INFORMATION HE HAD. He never would've let all the Grey Wardens be in the Vanguard if he knew only a Warden could end a blight. He begged Cailan to stay in the rear with him for days before the battle - Loghain never intended to kill him. Loghain retreated at Ostagar because he saw the overwhelming numbers and knew if he attacked then there would be no one left to warn the rest of Fereldan and defend the country. I could go on.
@@DagwoodDogwoggle Unfortunately, ours is an unpopular opinion - and while some of Loghain's actions certainly make him appear the villains, most people never even bothered to try to understand his reason.
One thing I absolutely love about Dragon Age's writing is how even when its a decsion that I'll never do, such as trading Alistair for Logain or driving Bull back to the Qun, they make sure the story will still have impactful satisfying climaxes.
Tbf Alistair was being kinda selfish at the Landsmeet. Duncan knew full well that Grey Wardens are the only ones who can kill archdemons, yet he still accepted Cailan's invitation to fight on the frontline. If he had stayed behind, both he and Cailan might have lived to retreat along with Loghain.
Honestly one of my favorite choices for a slightly vindictive but pragmatic warden is to conscript Loghain. And then have a hardened Alistair marry Anora. Best of both worlds and Alistair will probably get over it. Probably.
I used to be hard-core against loghain, like I would kill him every single time in DAO(except one time for the achievement), this all changed after I played with the Dragon age Keep world state for one of my runs of DAI I found myself being more sympathetic to him, I expected him to be bitter, or even aggressive, but from my perspective he seemed genuinely repentant, it gives me the image of a good man tainted with an ends justify the means mentality. Now I find myself much more willing to show him mercy in DAO
@@EdranNight correct me if I’m wrong I didn’t read the book myself but watched the video on here but even if Katriel was sorry and fell in love or whatever didn’t she already get men killed by leading them into a trap and Rowan seemed indecisive most of time not being able to make up who she was into and Maric seemed to naïve I’m not defending Logan in origins but I think in the stolen throne he did what he through was best and was right
So many mixed feelings about this guy. He's a fascinating character, so many sides to him, and I think whether he made the right call at Ostagar is a lot more complicated than many fans would like it to be. But at the same time I just can't forgive him for literally selling elves into slavery. Not that it would be okay to do it to anybody else either, but you know he never would have done that to humans. My first ever experience with Dragon Age was playing as Tabris, so those were literally my character's friends and family and community he was selling away. It's hard to think of that as being for the "good of the country".
@@MFenix206 retreating might be the right call but allying with howe, selling elves as slaves, falsely accusing the grey wardens of treason and poisoning the arl were most definitely the wrong call.
@@MrPsych77 "He made the right call at Ostagar," doesn't say anything about any decisions that weren't ostagar. it is debatable however that he intentionally planned the battle such that retreat would be the right call. that he intentionally crafted a poor plan of battle with the intent to justifiably quit the field.
@@MFenix206 honestly since arl Eamon fell ill before the battle that does speak to premeditation. If he didn't plan on sticking around why would he care if the plan would work. He just needed people to believe it could
While I personally don't like Loghain, recruiting him into the party/grey wardens while Alistair stays to become the king with Anora makes the most logical sense to me and is my canon worldstate.
So I just got this world state and I’m actually impressed how nuanced logain is. I don’t like his choices but I finally understand him. I think it’s quite the just punishment to become the thing he never took seriously. Alistair hates me now but it’s so interesting how he eventually thanks you for making him king and understands why you recruited logain. He still doesn’t like my warden (totally get why) but he does understand
Loghain is such… A beautiful, wonderful and poetic character. Loghain spent his youth suffering under Orlais and, understandably, developed a hatred towards the Orlesian people. What I love the most is that he grows from commoner to a noble second only to the King, then he became a traitor to his country in fear of Orlais. He either dies a traitor, dies a hero saving Ferelden from the Archdemon or lives on as the traitor Teyrn living the Warden Outposts of Orlais of all places. Loghain’s journey from hating Orlais to calling Orlais’ Wardens his brothers is so beautiful to me. He’s just… He’s got the best character arc in the entire series and there’s few characters so conflicted and yet despite the fact that he is a bad person, he remains a good man.
Thank you for this great video. Loghain is an extremely fascinating character. Opinion about why he had the bounty on every warden's head: I think that it had a lot to do that Duncan was involved with Marric in "the Calling" and it is mentioned that Loghain blamed the Wardens that Orlais was trying to kidnap Marric back then in the tower of Magi. Something that was not entirely false after the Great Enchanter back then was Orlesian and Genevive did have a deal with him. It was all a little confusing and weird but in that way it would make sense that he mistrusted the Wardens in general. Same with Eamon, he not just wanted to delay Redcliffe's men but get Eamon out of the way, who was married to Isolde - an Orlesian noble woman. From what I get is that he saw her as a Orlesian Spy - not that she would have been smart enough for that - but thanks to her Eamon was very open to Orlesians and if you grow up hating Orlais and want them to be gone, every sympathizer is an enemy. I do not excuse Loghain's decisions about the Elves in the Alienage, it was horrible, but I don't think it was all him. No matter if you are an alienage elf or not, the wedding happens and the riot follows, causing Howe to "take care of this" killing the Arl of Dennerim after he made sure that no matter if his son lives or dies never is seen anymore, to become Arl of Denerim himself. He grants Loghain to take care of the Riot, yes Loghain signed the contract knowing what he was signing - something that is horrible and unforgivable - but I think that Howe has a lot to do with that too. All in all, yes he did a lot of horrible things, but as a warden we scare the crap out of him, until he joins us and sees that we are at least not necessarily the evil warden he thought we would be. Since I read the book I cannot kill Loghain with a good conscience anymore. So yeah it since then mostly ends in me hardening Alistair and put him with Anora on the throne. Making the god baby xD ignoring that very weird scene and then meeting him in DA:Inquisition. Though I cannot bring myself to leave Hawke behind. So it's always him. And me being depressed.
Agreed!! Loghain is by far my favorite villain in the series and it feels like he and his actions get forgotten a lot in the other games and the fandom as a whole.
@@StonedHunter Yeah, In Inquisition they are mentioned by the wuartermaster in Haven. But Solas describes it well, one might see his actions as a grand betryal or as a desperate act of an old veteran looking to save the last of his men.
@@itsjustme6460 actually if Loghain survived the 5th blight as a Grey Warden, and Alistair either dies or becomes King, Loghain actually ends up being the Warden you meet in Crestwood.
I have a playthrough with him joining the wardens surviving the battle and making out of the fade in inquisition dude must think he is immortal at this point
Though I still think Loghain’s actions are inexcusable, (like outlawing the Wardens, selling out the elves at the alienage, and worst having Arl Fucking Howe in his ear; but I digress.), he isn’t a cartoony villain. Him witnessing his mother getting brutalized and being forced to watch… and here I thought Howe was a sadistic lowlife. What an amazing character.
Loghain is such an incredible character. After reading the books I’ve always been heartbroken when I inevitably kill him (my canon is Anora and Allistair rule together). He’s a great man, but the trauma he’s had to go through finally broke him when we needed him most. 😭
i always hated loghain (as ppl are meant to obvs, hes a great villain) but ngl knowing so much more about him makes him So much more likeable. i love your videos so much, thank you
I first played origins years ago when I was quite a bit younger and bought the games on steam around the time this video was released, which was also around the time I found this channel. I have a much higher appreciation for the game now that I’m older and understand stuff more and can appreciate it. I never once considered taking Loghain but decided I wanted to play the most depressing world state possible so I recruited him. I planned to have him kill the arch demon (I was literally trying to kill off all my companions that I could) but then I honestly, ended up really enjoying Loghain as a companion and character as a whole, I took him on dlcs to spend more time with him and wished I could do more. Then I couldn’t just bring myself to kill him, but it also didn’t fit in my plans to sacrifice my warden, so I just found the most rational reason, which was the fact we literally do not know what the OGB soul will do and how dangerous it is, for all we know it can still cause a blight or have some unforeseen negative impact and it just made sense to make a selfish decision to save my own life.
Tbf we have very little information. Who knows what kind of world ending calamity that might arise if we kill the Old Gods. In that sense, preserving just one soul might be the right step. Worst case scenario, we have an extra Blight - but at least a Blight can be stopped.
Yay been waiting for this and it drops on my lunch!! Wicked! I hope you feel better! I appreciate all the effort and time you put into videos like this! 💝
Anyone who has played Origins should read the novels. Yeah they're a bit of a chore at times, and more than a bit cringe when it comes to their female characters, but wow is it worth it to make Loghain tragic and compelling.
Fun fact in Origins Loghain is actually voiced by british actor Simon Templeman who in terms of video game works is best known for his role as Kain a Vampire from the Legacy of Kain games and is a very complex character in those games as well. So the first time i tried Origins and thought there was something famliar about Loghains voice after a quick imdb search it was then i found out it was Kain himself and thats why Loghains voice was familiar to me
Something that’s kinda interesting is the voice actor for Loghain, Simon Templeman also voiced Mordred in The Legend of Prince Valiant cartoon in the early 90s and Mordred is a pretty similar character to Loghain
Aka one of, if not the best characters in the game. He really is a fantastic villain turned hero (should you spare him) and his final (?) appearance when you leave him in the fade was perfect. If you ask me, he deserves to be happy and has more than earned his redemption. I forgive him for everything he's ever done. I also cant exactly blame him for hating the orlesians. I wanted to save him, I really did. But I just couldn't. I couldn't leave Hawke behind. And now I'm in my new canon playthrough. I despise Morrigan with a passion and the whole god baby thing is something I'm no longer comfortable with. So I have to either let him die to save us all, or I die. I still dont know what choice is better. I dont want loghain to die. But I dont either. I dont know what to do. Side note can we all agree how brilliant the leave (insert character) part in the fade was? It is probably the only DA choice that left me contemplating for half an hour. It was so tragic. I'm glad I didnt have to choose between Hawke and Alistair. That would've broke me. Also congrats on getting a request from the guy behind the voice of the hero of river dane himself. That must be such an honor! Here's to DA Dreadwolf!
Okay, if I were to adapt the games into a series format, I had an idea: instead of killing Loghain on the spot, the Warden uses a proxy execution (bag over the head type deal) and orders Loghain (in full armour) to man Fort Drakon with his most loyal soldiers. Loghain then dies trying to defend Alistair during the siege, redeeming himself. Also, Cauthrien becomes Anora's bodyguard because we all deserve nice things.
The amount of endings in origins is phenomenonal. The fact that you could have Loghain not only survive, but then survive the arch demon while you die is crazy. And to top it off he can sleep with morrigan lol. Nuts
In MY canon world, both the HoF and Hawke died for Loghain. My headcanon for DA4 we probably wont see is Loghain meeting Carver Hawke in the Anderfels and forming a splinter group of Wardens trying to overthrow the corrupted leadership. Consisting of Loghain, Carver, Anders (now redeemed after his lover Hawkes death), Sigrun, Ohgren, Stroud, Nathanial and Thom Reiner. A badass team of heroes led by the once disgraced Loghain. I think being able to keep such a hatable villain like Loghain around through all 3 games is fantastic that not many writers would do.
On the playthrough where i saved Loghain, i took him in my party and made him play with no armor or weapon. He ran around in his undies the whole time and it was glorious 😄
Loghain's father, Gareth, Defender of the Cheese, originally appeared in the television show "ER". It's a masterful easter egg in the game. Edit: It's the 2007 Episode titled "Coming Home". I tried to find a link, but to no avail.
One of my favourite details about Loghain is how his decision at Ostagar mirrors Rowan's decision to go and help him early in The stolen thron during the first battle we see against the orlesians. I know it was obviously written to be a callback to Origins but I like it because it makes a weird sort of foreshadowing of his later/earlier in the series (depending if you look at it in events order or writing order)
what if loghain being alive in DA:D actually helps save the world and all, him being at weisshaupt with his particular for of pragmatism may save the day and could even be a redemption arc. i doubt bioware would bother with it but it would be cool.
am i...................... oh god am i the only one in the world who boots alistair out of my party and just replaces him with dog and loghain am i the bad guy..... no........
Nah I also save loghain everytime. I love Alistair to death but he is being a baby about Loghain. Just because its understandable, doesnt make it less unacceptable. It's more awkward if you're either a human or city elf. Like Alistair, he made me suffer and lose alot too. Doesnt make killing him right and we actually need all the help we can get. We only get *one* shot at killing the archdemon. We dont have time for hate boners right now. Hell even if he can't forgive him, Alistair leaving really was the most selfish thing he could do. So much for taking the high ground.
Loghain is my favorite of all dragon age characters! Complex, a huge survivor...I didn't left him in the fade hoping he add more and have a more complex end in DA 4.
I'm in awe that such a complex character can be developed in a game. I first played DA:O and thought he was just a villain, but the reasoning behind his actions and his experiences make everything so much more interesting
Loghain Surviving into Dragon Age 4: "If I had a nickel for every time I should have heroic sacrificed myself to redeem my villainous past, only for a protagonist to sacrifice themselves in my place, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird it happened twice." Dragon Age 4: **Has a scene where Loghain or the Inquisitor has to sacrifice themselves.** Inquisitor: "Cowabunga." **Dies** Loghain: "Maker damn it, let me die already!!!"
I think Loghain is an incredibly interesting character and a flawed but not evil man. I will say that I don't think I heard you mention that Howe was working with Loghain and had already attacked the Cousland manor before Ostagar, implying that the coup was planned from the start
He’s both a monster and a hero. I love to give him his redemption tale in DAI cause honestly it’s so well done to complete his arc, but so is his death in DAO. Honestly I think Paranoia got him more than anything else.
His suspicion was reasonable. The Grey Wardens tried to kill Ferelden king *twice* in the past and they wanted to bring the Orlesians with them - the same nation who betrayed Nevarra right after the Third Blight and occupied Ferelden for 70+ years in the last century.
Gonna be real with you, I hated Loghain in my first playthrough of DAO but over the years I've come to love his character. I find that if he survives DAO his content in later games is some of my favorite content. I also love the fact that he's seemingly the only character to change his fighting style (or class in game terms) having been a rogue during the events of the Stolen Throne (and this is where his DA2 items get their lore) but eventually becoming a warrior by the time of DAO and staying that way as a warden after DAO.
I'm glad this topic showed up now. I'm following a couple of Origins playthroughs and am actually going through the game myself. New insights are always welcome. And yes, I'm actually finding new things in the game.
If you think about it loghain is like a gray warden because he doing whatever it takes to stop the blight in his nation may it be good or bad which is the main adjective of wardens In a twisted way my first play through of the game made me dislike him because the devs painted him as the obvious villain but in he's eyes (may it be slightly different from us as the players) he's the hero and we're the bad guys who's against him
I absolutely hated Loghain until my third playthrough were I decided through gritted teeth to keep him alive, and he became one of my favourite characters in the franchise
Honestly, Logain was the most sane and intelligent character in the story, both pre Origins and in the game. The game makes him seem bad at the beginning, but at Ostagar he saved the army from further loss
@@greenfrogbad I don't know of many leaders who sell their citizens into slavery and try to kill the only people who historically could stop the blights. The burden of leadership is swallowing your pride and accepting help which he didn't do at all. The Grey Wardens understand the burden of leadership and sacrifice.
One of my favorite characters. In my first playthrough I wanted to conscript him, however Alistair was unhardened and I wanted to end the game with him. I admit I felt bad for Loghain, because I've always felt I was killing his character development early or I was missing a big part of his story. In my first World State now he is the Warden in DAI (I changed my Hero of Ferelden) and I find the dynamics with my Warrior! Hawke (who fought at Ostagar) really interesting.
While I will inevitably do a playthrough where I kill him at the Landsmeet, its just so hard, because his arc up to Inquisiton is just so, so, SO good ... And I can still make Alistair king alongside Anora for a satisfying end for him too. I hate it when a character is so well written its hard for me to deviate from my default canon 😂
Seems like the hard in Hightown chapter is NOT daying Loghain is dreaming if home peacefully. Donnen is, Loghain says your lucky if you don't wake up with memories of patrol, when hearing Donnen's memories of baking he sighs and replies that Donnen is in fact luckier than most. Leaves me to assume Loghain is not enjoying restful thoughts, but even in reat brooding on his faults and trauma.
I hated Loghain when I first played DAO, and then my feelings got mixed when I discovered the novels. I still don't know what to think, but at the very least I've been inspired to make a "bad choices" run - because if you're gonna throw Alistair under the bus and pick Loghain, you may as well go evil all the way.
It’s crazy that as many times as I’ve played origins (dozens), and given how time and future titles have made me come to understand and respect his perspective more over the years, Loghain’s never survived one of my playthroughs. Just once I spared him in order to see an ending where hardened Alistair is King, my warden lives, and no old god baby gets made, but even then he died by killing Urthemiel. I think what it has to be is just how betrayed Alistair feels in any scenario where Loghain becomes a warden. It’s just too emotionally taxing, the game really drives home that you’re stabbing a friend in the back haha 🥲
I may be biased (I really can't stand Alistair and he got banished or dead most times) but I always connected with Loghain. I think a big part of what makes you believe he may be right is Sir Cauthrien. The game have you understand she's good and loyal, but she's ready to have her king die because Loghain said so. The prologue was enough to have me convinced he was a hero and living legend
I still have Loghain alive even through the end of Inquisition. At the end of Origins, I decided his punishment was that he would never get to become a martyr and I've stuck to that even at the cost of Hawke and Alistair (although Alistair was easy for me don't really like that guy).
To expand on the topic, it also helps that king Cailan is depicted as an arrogant child, while Loghain seems to care and be respected by his men. It even makes sense that he fights you, he loves his country so much that he sacrificed his king, the son of his best friend for it, he isn't going to step down for a fresh warden. In my first playthrough I actually thought for much of the first act (until he sends Zevran) that the game would be about convincing Loghain to work with you, because I couldn't conceive that he wasn't one of the good (although misguided) guys
@@GhilDirthalen she might appear that way, but we don't really know. I just think it's a weird summation to see that one aspect of probably the most powerful character of the game, and be weirded out by her choosing to coerce Loghain and the Warden to save the god soul. It feels hella tunnel visioned.
Wouldn't the "Most powerful witch in the game." actually be Flemeth? Just saying. And honestly, Morrigan probably IS a young woman. All of her "sisters" knew about their mom, but she didn't. Honestly, I can't recall if she was even aware of her "sisters" existing, since she saw Flemeth as a 'body snatcher'. Plus, that whole "seduction scene" to make the baby bothers me regardless of who her partner is. The is no love in that scene (unless romanced) and possibly not even much pleasure. It's done so that your character doesn't have to die, and so that Morrigan can gain power she craves. Even she didn't expect to develop motherly feelings for the child conceived. So there is nothing wrong with Ghil finding it distasteful.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 tbf Loghain really held a grudge. And he did it in such a way as to almost kill me, my dog and the heir apparent. Sure he didn't realize the full ramifications of his actions, but he sure did later.
@@nathanrosman-bakehouse359 What I mean is, people were too lenient with Alistair. With Alistair, they just said his anger was justified since Loghain "killed" his father figure and branded the other Wardens traitors. With Loghain, they just condemned him and said "he was blinded by his hatred of Orlais". Even if we ignore Loghain's personal anger (which was completely justified btw), there's still the fact that Orlais enslaved Ferelden for 70+ years in the last century alone. Furthermore, Orlais had been known to betray Nevarra after the Third Blight. Why would anyone trust a nation where the nobles treated murders, conspiracies and betrayals as games?
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 refresh me I guess. What did Alistair do that was too far? I sympathize with Loghain too, specially after reading the books but he goes too far in his betrayal at Ostagar and what he did to the human nobles family and house.... and the elf slavery... and siding with the shitty dwarves. (one of my favorite video game moments)
@@nathanrosman-bakehouse359 There are easier, more subtle ways to kill a king than a full retreat during a large scale battle. Good ol' poison will do that. Alternatively, he could slip a few darkspawn blood in the king's wine or have one of his men shoot Cailan with a darkspawn arrow. Hardly anybody would think twice if the king was tainted after fighting darkspawn or fell to a stray arrow. Simple answer? Loghain never wanted to kill Cailan. Remember the war council scene, he told Cailan that the darkspawn horde is too dangerous for the king (without heir btw) to be playing hero on the frontline, but Cailan refused to listen. Loghain is hardly the only person to warn Cailan; Eamon gave the same warning in his letter but the king ignored them. For this same reason, it's absurd to accuse him of his involvement in the Couslands massacre. Howe's plan would have failed if Cailan survived the battle (the king promised he would bring Howe to justice) and Loghain tried to protect Cailan by telling him not to join the battle. That Cailan ended up dying anyway was a result of his stupidity, nothing more. And the battle was already lost. Lighting the signal was supposed to be an easy job, yet the Wardens were heavily delayed. Assuming the Wardens didn't betray them, that could only mean one other thing: the tower was compromised; and since the tower was located behind their line, it means darkspawn have surrounded Cailan's force. There's no telling if they could reach Cailan in time, what with the king jumping head first into danger, but is one idiot worth risking thousands of soldier? Even if they somehow managed to kill every darkspawn at Ostagar, that wouldn't amount to anything because the Archdemon was absent. The Blight would still continue. Would they have enough men left to fight the Blight or repel Orlais? I mean, Orlais was stupid enough to have a civil war during mage-templar crisis, so I wouldn't discount the possibility of them invading Ferelden during a Blight. As for Alistair, well... suffice to say that I was "lucky" enough to see his dark side soon after Redcliffe.
I like loghain he did what he thought was right and he has a great story and he is a great companion and you can tell he loves ferelden and will do anything for his country and I do kill him for alistair because I think alistair has the morale high and flemeth said he will betray you I spare him on my none headcanon or just to gey his opinion on the dlcs
@Alex Grey Yeah that is not the best of looks. And is easily his biggest blemish. I still kinda get it. I still dont ultimately hate him for it. I should, but I just dont. I still chew him out for it everytime you can bring it up to him the 1st and only time.
@Alex Grey and they would have more than likely been killed by the darkspawn otherwise, they don't get plot armor just because you want to get the optimal ending. He was making the best of of what could have been easily been a hopeless situation.
@@greenfrogbad yeah, that's a dumb excuse. If they couldn't be defended from the darkspawn in the Alinenage, then move them out of it. Selling citizens into slavery doesn't make sense in the slightest and his excuse was something he pulled out his ass to try and win over people at the Landsmeet. He wasn't making the best with what he could as he constantly tried to kill the best hope at defeating the dark spawn. And no, him not knowing the Grey Wardens have a special ability to kill the archdemon does not excuse his attempts at killing them just to cover up his own treachery. The Grey Wardens historiacally always were able to kill the archdemons and defeat the blights. Him not knowing exactly how doesn't make him any less stupid. He's just an overall stubborn fool who can't let go of his past hate even if his people that he claims to care about, have to pay the price.
If Loghain survives, he's referred to as the Highest Ranking Warden still alive in the South. Would it stand to reason that if Loghain lives past Adamant, he'd be marked the Warden Commander of Orlais(or Ferelden)?
It's worth pointing out that Loghain had clearly planned to abandon Ostagar before the signal fire went up. He sealed off the tower before the battle, leaving the massive vulnerability that caused the signal's delay. He clearly couldn't see the battle unfold if he needed the signal to begin with, so his choice to retreat wasn't because things were going poorly. Both Howe's attack and the poisoning of Eamon were schemes that would have Loghain executed for treason once discovered, so his best bet to survive was for Cailan to die. You could argue it was a plan to delay Ostagar, but you could equally claim it was to weaken Cailan's support in the battle and ensure his death. All we have to say he abandoned Cailan for noble reasons are the feelings of people 10 years on, none of them supported by Loghain himself.
No, because the soldier we met near the tower said that they discovered an underground beneath the tower. If Loghain wanted to sabotage the tower, he would have ordered his soldiers to keep quiet about the tunnel. Cailan died to his own stupidity. He ignored Loghain's and Eamon's warnings to play hero on the frontline despite having no heir.
This is such a minor thing but I think you're pronouncing Montsimmard wrong. You're saying it like "Mon-tissi-mar", but it should be more like "Mon-zi-mah". Great video though!
Traitor, glad I blew you into meaty chunks (fought him as an Arcane-Warrior Mage and beat him of course!)...put Alistair on the throne with Anora (don't like her, but frankly Alistair alone would probably run it into the ground...note: Alistair and Anora probably will not have kids, because she's like barren and he is a warden so significantly less fertile anyway!)
Never let Loghain live in my playtroughs. Alistair my best buddy, gotta kill Loghain always. Funny cause I kinda have a little more simpathy for Loghain, just because now I know he had a dog and that he really loved his dog. 😭
Zevran and Loghain may only have 1 party banter line, but it is definitely one of the funniest.
Oh yeah Zevran reporting to him "I failed by the way" and Loghain "You don't say." LMAO
That banter is comedy gold!
@@DeathAngelKari ooh that is rough. Never actually knew that one.
this is second one, the first was : "just get it done", so technically there was 2 banters between them😆
One thing I liked about this series is this: back in Origins, when Loghain responds to a suggestion of requesting help from Orlais to end the Blight by snapping back immediately and yelling "Not a chance! We didn't kick them out 30 years ago to welcome them back now with open arms". This (back on Origins) might make you think that he is paranoid. But then you play through Inquisition, get to the Winter Palace, and realize that Loghain was right on the money with that one - their ruling class has no concept of honor.
Even more so when you consider the fact that Orlais once betrayed Nevarra immediately after the Third Blight.
Cailan was a fool. Of all the places to ask for reinforcement from, he chose Orlais - the very nation that enslaved Fereldan for 70+ years in the last century.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 to be fair, a Blight requires all of thedas as the last 4 were very brutal.
@@lelouche25 Then why just Orlais? Why didn't they ask reinforcement from Free Marches or Antiva? According to Varric in DA2 prologue, the journey between Kirkwall and Gwaren was only two weeks and that was with a storm. And the Grey Wardens had years to prepare for the Blight.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 true enough, but I chalk that up to Cailins naivitee
@@lelouche25 They fortunately seem to be getting easier and easier tho. First Blight was 200 years, second was 30, third and fourth were less than 10 years each
So that's a good thing, I suppose
Get you someone who loves you as much as Loghain Mac Tir hates the chevaliers.
Impossible
FOUR LEGIONS OF CHEVALIERS!!
shout out to my girlfriend whom I met because of a mutual love of loghain
. . . Why did I tear up over Loghain and his dog at the end?
No, but same here. My eyes are hella leaky right about now.
I've always loved having him be the one that stays in the fade in DAI. There's something poetic about his last line being, "for the wardens!"
oh man i hadn’t even thought about that
Loghain is definitely my favorite villain and I am sad that I can't bring myself to recruit him permanently due to losing Alistair and how his fate ends up if you do. I love seeing him be hit HARD with just how badly he fucked up and how he just accepts that no one will ever favor or trust him, but still does whatever he can to make up for what he did. I feel like he isn't talked about nearly enough which is sad as if there was anyone who could relate to Solas in Dreadwolf...it very well could be Loghain who knows what it's like to turn into a monster trying to protect and revive the land you love.
If you harden Alistair and convince him to take the throne Alistair will instead quit the wardens to become king instead of becoming a drunk. Its my favorite resolution honestly =x
That one quartermaster in Inquisition will always favor and trust him no matter what happens to him in Origins. So he has her at least.
Describing the entire events of the Calling like Maric taking a gap year in college killed me. Great video!
Does anyone else want to find out how Hawke and Loghain became friends? We know how it happened for Stroud and Alistair, but I *really* want to find out how a survivor of Loghain's betrayal and Loghain himself became friends. Somebody write *that* short story.
I would say they both know what it's like to be a pariah figure. Regardless of whichever side you choose with Hawke, they becomes as Infamous as famous.
I personally do believe that is just a flaw of the dialogue design, Loghain likely was just his contact nothing more.
But given the likes of Threnn(inquisition quartermaster who insist on Loghain was right no matter his fate) still exist even after 10 years, it won’t be too out of character for Hawke to still respect him(he could say that Loghain did what he though was the best, all that)
@@ArtPatron25 They can definitely relate there. But I think they meant how they came to know each other.
Yeah I don't think they really thought that through very much when they made it possible for him to have a cameo in DA2, and then carried it into DAI. Even for a mage Hawke not personally at Ostagar, Carver still would have been. I guess that was just another victim of the short development time.
@@theskyling Loghain couldn't actually show up in DA2. That's what makes it even more interesting.
Loghain is my favorite character in the series alongside Hawke
You can imagine how difficult that decision in the fade was for me.
Loghain in my opinion is the best written character in the series with a really beautiful redemption arc as time goes on. Ending as the senior Warden in Orlais is too perfect.
Fr, best character arc
The fabled Loghain video. The curse is broken it seems.
Loghain had every reason to hate Orlais, but his hatred blinded him greatly
Tbf not like he had much information to begin. How was he supposed to know that Grey Wardens are the only ones who can kill archdemons, when the Order kept that a secret from their own recruits? Even Alistair didn't find out about the Ultimate Sacrifice until Riordan told hin.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 YES! YES! I've had this argument so many times. Everything Loghain did was right GIVEN THE INFORMATION HE HAD. He never would've let all the Grey Wardens be in the Vanguard if he knew only a Warden could end a blight. He begged Cailan to stay in the rear with him for days before the battle - Loghain never intended to kill him. Loghain retreated at Ostagar because he saw the overwhelming numbers and knew if he attacked then there would be no one left to warn the rest of Fereldan and defend the country.
I could go on.
@@DagwoodDogwoggle Unfortunately, ours is an unpopular opinion - and while some of Loghain's actions certainly make him appear the villains, most people never even bothered to try to understand his reason.
One thing I absolutely love about Dragon Age's writing is how even when its a decsion that I'll never do, such as trading Alistair for Logain or driving Bull back to the Qun, they make sure the story will still have impactful satisfying climaxes.
Tbf Alistair was being kinda selfish at the Landsmeet. Duncan knew full well that Grey Wardens are the only ones who can kill archdemons, yet he still accepted Cailan's invitation to fight on the frontline. If he had stayed behind, both he and Cailan might have lived to retreat along with Loghain.
Honestly one of my favorite choices for a slightly vindictive but pragmatic warden is to conscript Loghain. And then have a hardened Alistair marry Anora. Best of both worlds and Alistair will probably get over it. Probably.
One of the most compelling antagonists in all of Dragon Age thank you for doing this character justice
I used to be hard-core against loghain, like I would kill him every single time in DAO(except one time for the achievement), this all changed after I played with the Dragon age Keep world state for one of my runs of DAI I found myself being more sympathetic to him, I expected him to be bitter, or even aggressive, but from my perspective he seemed genuinely repentant, it gives me the image of a good man tainted with an ends justify the means mentality. Now I find myself much more willing to show him mercy in DAO
Well, read the dragon age book titiled "The Stolen Throne" You will like his character even more
@@wanderingman5516 the stolen throne is why I was so zealously against him, what he did to Maric, Rowan, and Katriel was complete unforgivable 😤
@@EdranNight correct me if I’m wrong I didn’t read the book myself but watched the video on here but even if Katriel was sorry and fell in love or whatever didn’t she already get men killed by leading them into a trap and Rowan seemed indecisive most of time not being able to make up who she was into and Maric seemed to naïve I’m not defending Logan in origins but I think in the stolen throne he did what he through was best and was right
So many mixed feelings about this guy. He's a fascinating character, so many sides to him, and I think whether he made the right call at Ostagar is a lot more complicated than many fans would like it to be. But at the same time I just can't forgive him for literally selling elves into slavery. Not that it would be okay to do it to anybody else either, but you know he never would have done that to humans. My first ever experience with Dragon Age was playing as Tabris, so those were literally my character's friends and family and community he was selling away. It's hard to think of that as being for the "good of the country".
My issue isn't with the call itself but falsely accusing the wardens
he made the right call at Ostagar, what is truly debatable was whether or not he orchestrated the situation that made it the right call...
@@MFenix206 retreating might be the right call but allying with howe, selling elves as slaves, falsely accusing the grey wardens of treason and poisoning the arl were most definitely the wrong call.
@@MrPsych77 "He made the right call at Ostagar,"
doesn't say anything about any decisions that weren't ostagar.
it is debatable however that he intentionally planned the battle such that retreat would be the right call. that he intentionally crafted a poor plan of battle with the intent to justifiably quit the field.
@@MFenix206 honestly since arl Eamon fell ill before the battle that does speak to premeditation. If he didn't plan on sticking around why would he care if the plan would work. He just needed people to believe it could
While I personally don't like Loghain, recruiting him into the party/grey wardens while Alistair stays to become the king with Anora makes the most logical sense to me and is my canon worldstate.
Same! Glad to see there is someone else on the same page
So I just got this world state and I’m actually impressed how nuanced logain is. I don’t like his choices but I finally understand him. I think it’s quite the just punishment to become the thing he never took seriously. Alistair hates me now but it’s so interesting how he eventually thanks you for making him king and understands why you recruited logain. He still doesn’t like my warden (totally get why) but he does understand
Please don't make me care about this guy I've killed so many times
Loghain is such… A beautiful, wonderful and poetic character. Loghain spent his youth suffering under Orlais and, understandably, developed a hatred towards the Orlesian people. What I love the most is that he grows from commoner to a noble second only to the King, then he became a traitor to his country in fear of Orlais. He either dies a traitor, dies a hero saving Ferelden from the Archdemon or lives on as the traitor Teyrn living the Warden Outposts of Orlais of all places. Loghain’s journey from hating Orlais to calling Orlais’ Wardens his brothers is so beautiful to me. He’s just… He’s got the best character arc in the entire series and there’s few characters so conflicted and yet despite the fact that he is a bad person, he remains a good man.
Thank you for this great video. Loghain is an extremely fascinating character.
Opinion about why he had the bounty on every warden's head: I think that it had a lot to do that Duncan was involved with Marric in "the Calling" and it is mentioned that Loghain blamed the Wardens that Orlais was trying to kidnap Marric back then in the tower of Magi. Something that was not entirely false after the Great Enchanter back then was Orlesian and Genevive did have a deal with him. It was all a little confusing and weird but in that way it would make sense that he mistrusted the Wardens in general.
Same with Eamon, he not just wanted to delay Redcliffe's men but get Eamon out of the way, who was married to Isolde - an Orlesian noble woman. From what I get is that he saw her as a Orlesian Spy - not that she would have been smart enough for that - but thanks to her Eamon was very open to Orlesians and if you grow up hating Orlais and want them to be gone, every sympathizer is an enemy.
I do not excuse Loghain's decisions about the Elves in the Alienage, it was horrible, but I don't think it was all him. No matter if you are an alienage elf or not, the wedding happens and the riot follows, causing Howe to "take care of this" killing the Arl of Dennerim after he made sure that no matter if his son lives or dies never is seen anymore, to become Arl of Denerim himself. He grants Loghain to take care of the Riot, yes Loghain signed the contract knowing what he was signing - something that is horrible and unforgivable - but I think that Howe has a lot to do with that too.
All in all, yes he did a lot of horrible things, but as a warden we scare the crap out of him, until he joins us and sees that we are at least not necessarily the evil warden he thought we would be.
Since I read the book I cannot kill Loghain with a good conscience anymore. So yeah it since then mostly ends in me hardening Alistair and put him with Anora on the throne. Making the god baby xD ignoring that very weird scene and then meeting him in DA:Inquisition. Though I cannot bring myself to leave Hawke behind.
So it's always him. And me being depressed.
Finally the vid i've been waiting for! One of my favourite characters, most sympathetic villain or the most morally grey companion. Thank you
Agreed!! Loghain is by far my favorite villain in the series and it feels like he and his actions get forgotten a lot in the other games and the fandom as a whole.
@@StonedHunter Yeah, In Inquisition they are mentioned by the wuartermaster in Haven. But Solas describes it well, one might see his actions as a grand betryal or as a desperate act of an old veteran looking to save the last of his men.
@@itsjustme6460 actually if Loghain survived the 5th blight as a Grey Warden, and Alistair either dies or becomes King, Loghain actually ends up being the Warden you meet in Crestwood.
I have a playthrough with him joining the wardens surviving the battle and making out of the fade in inquisition dude must think he is immortal at this point
Caitie at 21:40 -- "this is _too much BioWare Daddy."_
After reading the novels, I can never kill Loghain. Even with all the evil shit he did, the guy earned too much respect in his youth.
Though I still think Loghain’s actions are inexcusable, (like outlawing the Wardens, selling out the elves at the alienage, and worst having Arl Fucking Howe in his ear; but I digress.), he isn’t a cartoony villain. Him witnessing his mother getting brutalized and being forced to watch… and here I thought Howe was a sadistic lowlife. What an amazing character.
Loghain is such an incredible character. After reading the books I’ve always been heartbroken when I inevitably kill him (my canon is Anora and Allistair rule together). He’s a great man, but the trauma he’s had to go through finally broke him when we needed him most. 😭
i always hated loghain (as ppl are meant to obvs, hes a great villain) but ngl knowing so much more about him makes him So much more likeable. i love your videos so much, thank you
Starting the video with that exchange was a very good choice, imo.
I first played origins years ago when I was quite a bit younger and bought the games on steam around the time this video was released, which was also around the time I found this channel.
I have a much higher appreciation for the game now that I’m older and understand stuff more and can appreciate it. I never once considered taking Loghain but decided I wanted to play the most depressing world state possible so I recruited him.
I planned to have him kill the arch demon (I was literally trying to kill off all my companions that I could) but then I honestly, ended up really enjoying Loghain as a companion and character as a whole, I took him on dlcs to spend more time with him and wished I could do more. Then I couldn’t just bring myself to kill him, but it also didn’t fit in my plans to sacrifice my warden, so I just found the most rational reason, which was the fact we literally do not know what the OGB soul will do and how dangerous it is, for all we know it can still cause a blight or have some unforeseen negative impact and it just made sense to make a selfish decision to save my own life.
Tbf we have very little information. Who knows what kind of world ending calamity that might arise if we kill the Old Gods. In that sense, preserving just one soul might be the right step. Worst case scenario, we have an extra Blight - but at least a Blight can be stopped.
Yay been waiting for this and it drops on my lunch!! Wicked! I hope you feel better! I appreciate all the effort and time you put into videos like this! 💝
Same with me lmao. Rewatched all of the companion profiles in anticipation
Logain is not that thrilled to sleep with Morrigan either :) I Actually had a difficult time convincing him to do it.
I was so happy to learn he’s voiced by Simon Templeman- the voice of Kain from the Legacy of Kain series :)
Anyone who has played Origins should read the novels. Yeah they're a bit of a chore at times, and more than a bit cringe when it comes to their female characters, but wow is it worth it to make Loghain tragic and compelling.
In more than a dozen playthroughs of Origins I could never get myself to recruit Loghain.
Fun fact in Origins Loghain is actually voiced by british actor Simon Templeman
who in terms of video game works is best known for his role as Kain a Vampire from the Legacy of Kain games and is a very complex character in those games as well.
So the first time i tried Origins and thought there was something famliar about Loghains voice after a quick imdb search it was then i found out it was Kain himself and thats why Loghains voice was familiar to me
Something that’s kinda interesting is the voice actor for Loghain, Simon Templeman also voiced Mordred in The Legend of Prince Valiant cartoon in the early 90s and Mordred is a pretty similar character to Loghain
Aka one of, if not the best characters in the game.
He really is a fantastic villain turned hero (should you spare him) and his final (?) appearance when you leave him in the fade was perfect. If you ask me, he deserves to be happy and has more than earned his redemption. I forgive him for everything he's ever done. I also cant exactly blame him for hating the orlesians.
I wanted to save him, I really did. But I just couldn't. I couldn't leave Hawke behind. And now I'm in my new canon playthrough. I despise Morrigan with a passion and the whole god baby thing is something I'm no longer comfortable with. So I have to either let him die to save us all, or I die. I still dont know what choice is better. I dont want loghain to die. But I dont either. I dont know what to do.
Side note can we all agree how brilliant the leave (insert character) part in the fade was? It is probably the only DA choice that left me contemplating for half an hour. It was so tragic. I'm glad I didnt have to choose between Hawke and Alistair. That would've broke me.
Also congrats on getting a request from the guy behind the voice of the hero of river dane himself. That must be such an honor!
Here's to DA Dreadwolf!
Okay, if I were to adapt the games into a series format, I had an idea: instead of killing Loghain on the spot, the Warden uses a proxy execution (bag over the head type deal) and orders Loghain (in full armour) to man Fort Drakon with his most loyal soldiers. Loghain then dies trying to defend Alistair during the siege, redeeming himself.
Also, Cauthrien becomes Anora's bodyguard because we all deserve nice things.
The amount of endings in origins is phenomenonal. The fact that you could have Loghain not only survive, but then survive the arch demon while you die is crazy. And to top it off he can sleep with morrigan lol. Nuts
Your warden can do the ritual with Morrigan and both of you can live without the creepy ritual scene with logain. That's also an option
Unless the Warden is a woman.
@@carloszapata847 true, but nevertheless, it's still an option
In MY canon world, both the HoF and Hawke died for Loghain. My headcanon for DA4 we probably wont see is Loghain meeting Carver Hawke in the Anderfels and forming a splinter group of Wardens trying to overthrow the corrupted leadership. Consisting of Loghain, Carver, Anders (now redeemed after his lover Hawkes death), Sigrun, Ohgren, Stroud, Nathanial and Thom Reiner. A badass team of heroes led by the once disgraced Loghain.
I think being able to keep such a hatable villain like Loghain around through all 3 games is fantastic that not many writers would do.
On the playthrough where i saved Loghain, i took him in my party and made him play with no armor or weapon. He ran around in his undies the whole time and it was glorious 😄
I somehow visualize loghains dad as Mel Gibson from the patriot.
Loghain's father, Gareth, Defender of the Cheese, originally appeared in the television show "ER". It's a masterful easter egg in the game.
Edit: It's the 2007 Episode titled "Coming Home". I tried to find a link, but to no avail.
I’ve been waiting for this video so when I saw it in notifications I got excited!!!
Wait....Loghain did tax evasion? I knew there was a reason I let him live as a warden. Kindred spirits I see.
One of my favourite details about Loghain is how his decision at Ostagar mirrors Rowan's decision to go and help him early in The stolen thron during the first battle we see against the orlesians.
I know it was obviously written to be a callback to Origins but I like it because it makes a weird sort of foreshadowing of his later/earlier in the series (depending if you look at it in events order or writing order)
Read Stolen Throne and was like why did you do that in Origins loghain🥺
what if loghain being alive in DA:D actually helps save the world and all, him being at weisshaupt with his particular for of pragmatism may save the day and could even be a redemption arc. i doubt bioware would bother with it but it would be cool.
am i......................
oh god am i the only one in the world who boots alistair out of my party and just replaces him with dog and loghain
am i the bad guy..... no........
Nah I also save loghain everytime. I love Alistair to death but he is being a baby about Loghain. Just because its understandable, doesnt make it less unacceptable.
It's more awkward if you're either a human or city elf. Like Alistair, he made me suffer and lose alot too. Doesnt make killing him right and we actually need all the help we can get. We only get *one* shot at killing the archdemon. We dont have time for hate boners right now.
Hell even if he can't forgive him, Alistair leaving really was the most selfish thing he could do. So much for taking the high ground.
Loghain is my favorite of all dragon age characters! Complex, a huge survivor...I didn't left him in the fade hoping he add more and have a more complex end in DA 4.
I'm in awe that such a complex character can be developed in a game. I first played DA:O and thought he was just a villain, but the reasoning behind his actions and his experiences make everything so much more interesting
Loghain Surviving into Dragon Age 4: "If I had a nickel for every time I should have heroic sacrificed myself to redeem my villainous past, only for a protagonist to sacrifice themselves in my place, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird it happened twice."
Dragon Age 4: **Has a scene where Loghain or the Inquisitor has to sacrifice themselves.**
Inquisitor: "Cowabunga." **Dies**
Loghain: "Maker damn it, let me die already!!!"
I will now have nightmares at the thought Loghain's LGB. This is something that I don't want to think about much. Yikes.
I think Loghain is an incredibly interesting character and a flawed but not evil man. I will say that I don't think I heard you mention that Howe was working with Loghain and had already attacked the Cousland manor before Ostagar, implying that the coup was planned from the start
He’s both a monster and a hero. I love to give him his redemption tale in DAI cause honestly it’s so well done to complete his arc, but so is his death in DAO.
Honestly I think Paranoia got him more than anything else.
His suspicion was reasonable. The Grey Wardens tried to kill Ferelden king *twice* in the past and they wanted to bring the Orlesians with them - the same nation who betrayed Nevarra right after the Third Blight and occupied Ferelden for 70+ years in the last century.
Gonna be real with you, I hated Loghain in my first playthrough of DAO but over the years I've come to love his character. I find that if he survives DAO his content in later games is some of my favorite content. I also love the fact that he's seemingly the only character to change his fighting style (or class in game terms) having been a rogue during the events of the Stolen Throne (and this is where his DA2 items get their lore) but eventually becoming a warrior by the time of DAO and staying that way as a warden after DAO.
Ah yes. The ‘villain’ who believed himself the ‘hero’. Or was it the other way around? You decide.
I'm glad this topic showed up now. I'm following a couple of Origins playthroughs and am actually going through the game myself. New insights are always welcome. And yes, I'm actually finding new things in the game.
If you think about it loghain is like a gray warden because he doing whatever it takes to stop the blight in his nation may it be good or bad which is the main adjective of wardens In a twisted way my first play through of the game made me dislike him because the devs painted him as the obvious villain but in he's eyes (may it be slightly different from us as the players) he's the hero and we're the bad guys who's against him
A realist's take.
I’ll tell you what the effort it took to keep Loghain alive and put Alistair on throne 😂😂
I absolutely hated Loghain until my third playthrough were I decided through gritted teeth to keep him alive, and he became one of my favourite characters in the franchise
Honestly, Logain was the most sane and intelligent character in the story, both pre Origins and in the game. The game makes him seem bad at the beginning, but at Ostagar he saved the army from further loss
Yeah but the whole thing was him not going hard enough on cailian to withdraw his troops
People who call him a villain don't understand the burdens of leadership.
@@greenfrogbad I don't know of many leaders who sell their citizens into slavery and try to kill the only people who historically could stop the blights. The burden of leadership is swallowing your pride and accepting help which he didn't do at all. The Grey Wardens understand the burden of leadership and sacrifice.
One of my favorite characters.
In my first playthrough I wanted to conscript him, however Alistair was unhardened and I wanted to end the game with him.
I admit I felt bad for Loghain, because I've always felt I was killing his character development early or I was missing a big part of his story.
In my first World State now he is the Warden in DAI (I changed my Hero of Ferelden) and I find the dynamics with my Warrior! Hawke (who fought at Ostagar) really interesting.
Everytime I'm ready to hate Loghain until infinity somebody comes along and makes him human again...
I have waited for years for it thank you!
Controversial opinion:
Kinda wish he was a romance option 👀
Iam Loghain fan and I will be forever
Sadly there will never be character like him again
While I will inevitably do a playthrough where I kill him at the Landsmeet, its just so hard, because his arc up to Inquisiton is just so, so, SO good ... And I can still make Alistair king alongside Anora for a satisfying end for him too.
I hate it when a character is so well written its hard for me to deviate from my default canon 😂
Never let Loghain live in any playthrough and never will
Seems like the hard in Hightown chapter is NOT daying Loghain is dreaming if home peacefully. Donnen is, Loghain says your lucky if you don't wake up with memories of patrol, when hearing Donnen's memories of baking he sighs and replies that Donnen is in fact luckier than most.
Leaves me to assume Loghain is not enjoying restful thoughts, but even in reat brooding on his faults and trauma.
I hated Loghain when I first played DAO, and then my feelings got mixed when I discovered the novels. I still don't know what to think, but at the very least I've been inspired to make a "bad choices" run - because if you're gonna throw Alistair under the bus and pick Loghain, you may as well go evil all the way.
21:40 Don't worry, he looks uncomfortable too. xD
One of the best written characters in DA.
It’s crazy that as many times as I’ve played origins (dozens), and given how time and future titles have made me come to understand and respect his perspective more over the years, Loghain’s never survived one of my playthroughs. Just once I spared him in order to see an ending where hardened Alistair is King, my warden lives, and no old god baby gets made, but even then he died by killing Urthemiel.
I think what it has to be is just how betrayed Alistair feels in any scenario where Loghain becomes a warden. It’s just too emotionally taxing, the game really drives home that you’re stabbing a friend in the back haha 🥲
I may be biased (I really can't stand Alistair and he got banished or dead most times) but I always connected with Loghain. I think a big part of what makes you believe he may be right is Sir Cauthrien. The game have you understand she's good and loyal, but she's ready to have her king die because Loghain said so. The prologue was enough to have me convinced he was a hero and living legend
I still have Loghain alive even through the end of Inquisition. At the end of Origins, I decided his punishment was that he would never get to become a martyr and I've stuck to that even at the cost of Hawke and Alistair (although Alistair was easy for me don't really like that guy).
To expand on the topic, it also helps that king Cailan is depicted as an arrogant child, while Loghain seems to care and be respected by his men. It even makes sense that he fights you, he loves his country so much that he sacrificed his king, the son of his best friend for it, he isn't going to step down for a fresh warden. In my first playthrough I actually thought for much of the first act (until he sends Zevran) that the game would be about convincing Loghain to work with you, because I couldn't conceive that he wasn't one of the good (although misguided) guys
He’s gotta be my fav dragon age character. So sorry Hawke lol
The strangest part of this retelling is Morrigan being called a "young woman." Most powerful witch in the game. I can't even.
I mean, at the start of origins she’s barely 20! That’s a young woman to me!
@@GhilDirthalen she might appear that way, but we don't really know. I just think it's a weird summation to see that one aspect of probably the most powerful character of the game, and be weirded out by her choosing to coerce Loghain and the Warden to save the god soul. It feels hella tunnel visioned.
Wouldn't the "Most powerful witch in the game." actually be Flemeth? Just saying. And honestly, Morrigan probably IS a young woman. All of her "sisters" knew about their mom, but she didn't. Honestly, I can't recall if she was even aware of her "sisters" existing, since she saw Flemeth as a 'body snatcher'. Plus, that whole "seduction scene" to make the baby bothers me regardless of who her partner is. The is no love in that scene (unless romanced) and possibly not even much pleasure. It's done so that your character doesn't have to die, and so that Morrigan can gain power she craves. Even she didn't expect to develop motherly feelings for the child conceived. So there is nothing wrong with Ghil finding it distasteful.
Man.....i just ...i cant betray Alistair he's ma boy the man man you know been with from the start my homie can't do him like that man
Can you do a Duncan character Spotlights/ analysis, please?
She returns!!!
Holy crap, I had no idea Loghain could make it to DA:I!
Orlais rapes and kills his mom... and rape and kill his dog. He then John Wicks them out of the country.
Apparently, it was okay for Alistair to hold a grudge, but not Loghain.
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 tbf Loghain really held a grudge. And he did it in such a way as to almost kill me, my dog and the heir apparent. Sure he didn't realize the full ramifications of his actions, but he sure did later.
@@nathanrosman-bakehouse359 What I mean is, people were too lenient with Alistair.
With Alistair, they just said his anger was justified since Loghain "killed" his father figure and branded the other Wardens traitors. With Loghain, they just condemned him and said "he was blinded by his hatred of Orlais".
Even if we ignore Loghain's personal anger (which was completely justified btw), there's still the fact that Orlais enslaved Ferelden for 70+ years in the last century alone. Furthermore, Orlais had been known to betray Nevarra after the Third Blight. Why would anyone trust a nation where the nobles treated murders, conspiracies and betrayals as games?
@@brahmantyoihsan5938 refresh me I guess. What did Alistair do that was too far? I sympathize with Loghain too, specially after reading the books but he goes too far in his betrayal at Ostagar and what he did to the human nobles family and house.... and the elf slavery... and siding with the shitty dwarves. (one of my favorite video game moments)
@@nathanrosman-bakehouse359 There are easier, more subtle ways to kill a king than a full retreat during a large scale battle. Good ol' poison will do that. Alternatively, he could slip a few darkspawn blood in the king's wine or have one of his men shoot Cailan with a darkspawn arrow. Hardly anybody would think twice if the king was tainted after fighting darkspawn or fell to a stray arrow.
Simple answer? Loghain never wanted to kill Cailan. Remember the war council scene, he told Cailan that the darkspawn horde is too dangerous for the king (without heir btw) to be playing hero on the frontline, but Cailan refused to listen. Loghain is hardly the only person to warn Cailan; Eamon gave the same warning in his letter but the king ignored them.
For this same reason, it's absurd to accuse him of his involvement in the Couslands massacre. Howe's plan would have failed if Cailan survived the battle (the king promised he would bring Howe to justice) and Loghain tried to protect Cailan by telling him not to join the battle. That Cailan ended up dying anyway was a result of his stupidity, nothing more.
And the battle was already lost. Lighting the signal was supposed to be an easy job, yet the Wardens were heavily delayed. Assuming the Wardens didn't betray them, that could only mean one other thing: the tower was compromised; and since the tower was located behind their line, it means darkspawn have surrounded Cailan's force.
There's no telling if they could reach Cailan in time, what with the king jumping head first into danger, but is one idiot worth risking thousands of soldier? Even if they somehow managed to kill every darkspawn at Ostagar, that wouldn't amount to anything because the Archdemon was absent. The Blight would still continue. Would they have enough men left to fight the Blight or repel Orlais? I mean, Orlais was stupid enough to have a civil war during mage-templar crisis, so I wouldn't discount the possibility of them invading Ferelden during a Blight.
As for Alistair, well... suffice to say that I was "lucky" enough to see his dark side soon after Redcliffe.
I call ol Logaihn mr.angry muppet man o- o
I like loghain he did what he thought was right and he has a great story and he is a great companion and you can tell he loves ferelden and will do anything for his country and I do kill him for alistair because I think alistair has the morale high and flemeth said he will betray you I spare him on my none headcanon or just to gey his opinion on the dlcs
@Alex Grey am talking about fighting for his home and saving his people but you are right selling the elfs is wrong and there no excuse for it
@Alex Grey Yeah that is not the best of looks. And is easily his biggest blemish. I still kinda get it.
I still dont ultimately hate him for it. I should, but I just dont. I still chew him out for it everytime you can bring it up to him the 1st and only time.
@Alex Grey and they would have more than likely been killed by the darkspawn otherwise, they don't get plot armor just because you want to get the optimal ending. He was making the best of of what could have been easily been a hopeless situation.
@@greenfrogbad yeah, that's a dumb excuse. If they couldn't be defended from the darkspawn in the Alinenage, then move them out of it. Selling citizens into slavery doesn't make sense in the slightest and his excuse was something he pulled out his ass to try and win over people at the Landsmeet. He wasn't making the best with what he could as he constantly tried to kill the best hope at defeating the dark spawn. And no, him not knowing the Grey Wardens have a special ability to kill the archdemon does not excuse his attempts at killing them just to cover up his own treachery. The Grey Wardens historiacally always were able to kill the archdemons and defeat the blights. Him not knowing exactly how doesn't make him any less stupid. He's just an overall stubborn fool who can't let go of his past hate even if his people that he claims to care about, have to pay the price.
If Loghain survives, he's referred to as the Highest Ranking Warden still alive in the South. Would it stand to reason that if Loghain lives past Adamant, he'd be marked the Warden Commander of Orlais(or Ferelden)?
Best Dragon Age character, long live warden commander Loghain Mac Tir
So Loghain character is heavily inspired by William Wallace
It's worth pointing out that Loghain had clearly planned to abandon Ostagar before the signal fire went up. He sealed off the tower before the battle, leaving the massive vulnerability that caused the signal's delay. He clearly couldn't see the battle unfold if he needed the signal to begin with, so his choice to retreat wasn't because things were going poorly. Both Howe's attack and the poisoning of Eamon were schemes that would have Loghain executed for treason once discovered, so his best bet to survive was for Cailan to die. You could argue it was a plan to delay Ostagar, but you could equally claim it was to weaken Cailan's support in the battle and ensure his death.
All we have to say he abandoned Cailan for noble reasons are the feelings of people 10 years on, none of them supported by Loghain himself.
No, because the soldier we met near the tower said that they discovered an underground beneath the tower. If Loghain wanted to sabotage the tower, he would have ordered his soldiers to keep quiet about the tunnel.
Cailan died to his own stupidity. He ignored Loghain's and Eamon's warnings to play hero on the frontline despite having no heir.
This is such a minor thing but I think you're pronouncing Montsimmard wrong. You're saying it like "Mon-tissi-mar", but it should be more like "Mon-zi-mah". Great video though!
can you do Cassandra Pentaghast
Could loghain be considered an anti hero?
oh my God I didn't know you could have Loghain....lie with... Morrigan to produce an OGB. that's so disturbing and creepy and CURSED lol
Really, what happened to Maric?
I've looked it up, checked reddit, DA Wiki discord, no one has an answer for me. Where do I find this information?
I argue the best central villain in the franchise, at least, until the Dreadwolf himself in the next game
Traitor, glad I blew you into meaty chunks (fought him as an Arcane-Warrior Mage and beat him of course!)...put Alistair on the throne with Anora (don't like her, but frankly Alistair alone would probably run it into the ground...note: Alistair and Anora probably will not have kids, because she's like barren and he is a warden so significantly less fertile anyway!)
It made it out 😂
Does anyone know what happens if you save Loghain and make Alistair marry Anora while in an Alistair Romance?
Alistair very angrily dumps you, but the marriage continues, assuming he was hardened.
Ahoy!
I always let Alistair duel Loghain.
Never let Loghain live in my playtroughs.
Alistair my best buddy, gotta kill Loghain always.
Funny cause I kinda have a little more simpathy for Loghain, just because now I know he had a dog and that he really loved his dog. 😭