Zadie Smith on Populists, Frauds and Flip Phones
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- Опубліковано 20 вер 2024
- I stumbled on a Zadie Smith line recently that stopped me in my tracks. She was writing in January 2017, and describing the political stakes of that period - Brexit in the U.K., Trump in the U.S. - and the way you could feel it changing people.
“Millions of more or less amorphous selves will now necessarily find themselves solidifying into protesters, activists, marchers, voters, firebrands, impeachers, lobbyists, soldiers, champions, defenders, historians, experts, critics. You can’t fight fire with air. But equally you can’t fight for a freedom you’ve forgotten how to identify.”
What Smith is describing felt so familiar - how politics can sometimes feel like it demands we put aside our internal conflict, our uncertainty, so we can take a strong position. I see it so often in myself and people around me, and yet I rarely hear it talked about. And Smith’s ability to give language to these kinds of quiet battles inside of ourselves is one reason she’s been one of my favorite writers for years.
Smith is the author of novels, including “White Teeth,” “On Beauty” and “NW,” as well as many essays and short stories. Her latest novel, “The Fraud (www.penguinran...) ,” also deals with politics and identity. It’s about a case in 19th-century London, but it has eerie resonances with our current political moment. I wasn’t surprised to learn that Trump and populism were front of mind for her when she wrote it. In this conversation, we discuss what populism is really channeling, why Smith refuses the “bait” of wokeness, how people have been “modified” by smartphones and social media, and more.
This episode contains strong language.
Mentioned:
Feel Free (www.penguinran...) by Zadie Smith
“Fascinated to Presume: In Defense of Fiction (www.nybooks.co...) ” by Zadie Smith
Amusing Ourselves (www.penguinran...) to Death by Neil Postman
“Generation Why? (www.nybooks.co...) ” by Zadie Smith
Book Recommendations:
The Director (www.waterstone...) by Daniel Kehlmann
The Rebel’s Clinic (us.macmillan.c...) by Adam Shatz
The Diaries of Virginia Woolf (www.google.com...)
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast (www.nytimes.co...) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.co... (www.nytimes.co...) .
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.
What a brilliant and deliberate mind…
No... and possibly no, if you mean perceptive is the same thing as brilliance. But. your average, well socialized, dog, knows more about the world she offers us.
Fantastic interview. Definitely going to pick up one of her novels.
Always loved this author!! Excellent thoughts and writings! Thank you Ms Smith and NY Times! Id love to see her and our next POTUS meet Ms Kamala Harris. Plus these 2 biracial women are lovely plus look related!
This was wonderful.
“Zadie Smith, occasional drug user.” That cracked me up. The rest of this interview was really boring.
This was one of the most thought-provoking and insightful interviews I have ever listened to. Startlingly original and subtle. Maybe this will be the last nudge I need to get rid of my behaviour-modifying smart phone!
I know she's a writer and I should just stick to her writing, but, I really, really enjoy interviews with her
Ezra, u r too damn smart and philosophically sophisticated for my post work mind.
Virtues guide you towards the truth through the various types of clouds
didn't she write some genocide apologia awhile back? smh
This was surprisingly interesting.
This one is in the deep end of the Ezra pool. 😊
But money goes a long way to compensate for ignorance
“I think, for me”
“I perhaps extrapolate”
“I guess I don’t”
“if I had to, I would call myself”
“I think people are thrown”
In her first paragraph alone, she puts in so many qualifiers to her thought that it all turns into an indefinite mishmash of uncertainty., declining to actually assert something.
"the circumstances they're thrown into are of absolute significance". This is a profound revelation?
"You can't fight fire with air". When I blow out a match, that’s exactly what I do: by blowing cool air, I suddenly lower the temperature so that combustion is no longer possible..
Zadie Smith's writing is a potpourri of unrefined impressions which add up to not very much. That may account for her appeal. But
I've never been able to complete reading a single article of hers, including this interview.
That’s because she is not imposing her view. It’s a more gentle way of giving opinions that leaves room for other opinions too
Garrulous.
Interesting woman. She says she’s black. Are her kids classified as black too? Confusion confusion confusion.
What a bizarre thing to say
Why do you care about someone's race?
If that is all you can take away from this conversation, you have a very dull mind
Why on earth would you care?
Honestly, a disrespectfully ignorant question.