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This is a very useful conversation. Jay and Fr Whiteford are more widely read than the the majority of us, may God bless this channel to reach more people (though it ain’t doing too bad already).
Fr Spyridon is based and redpilled. Appreciate the mystical exegesis in his homilies. Unique, grounding and important contribution in these unbalanced times in the West and beyond.
Fr John does such a good job of explaining how Protestantism and Roman Papism are results of the same wrong approach, despite being polar opposites in many ways.
I think Dostoevsky said it best in The Brother’s Karamazov that Rome’s mistake was in trying to turn the Church into the state. Their whole hierarchy is so bureaucratic and corrupt. Rather, we should strive to turn the state into the Church; the state should strive to uphold the teachings of the faith, but keep clergy out of such worldly and easily corruptible matters
@@albertatrafficante4261 I never said all the independent churches are prefect. Kirill's deep involvement with the Russian state is a problem. But it doesn't rot the entire Church like the pope's mistakes
@@lbwnova6654 We had to 266 successors of Peter in Rome. You are just taking a snap shot of one moment in time. The only Church Pope Francis is destroying is the one that was formed by the Modernists. Eternal Rome will always be. We Roman Catholics that hold onto our Traditions are going to out last Modern Rome. Sacred Tradition is our future and Pope Francis can't stop it.
@albertatrafficante4261 I believe that the Roman catholic church will be instrumental to the rise of the one world religion of the future aka the religion of the antichrist and Francis will be a key player in this
"Papism indeed is the most radical Protestantism, because it has transferred the foundation of Christianity from the eternal God-Man to ephemeral man. And it has proclaimed this as the paramount dogma, which means: the paramount value, the paramount measure of all beings and things in the world. And the Protestants merely accepted this dogma in its essence, and worked it out in terrifying magnitude and detail. Essentially, Protestantism is nothing other than a generally applied papism. For in Protestantism, the fundamental principle of papism is brought to life by each man individually. After the example of the infallible man in Rome, each Protestant is a cloned infallible man, because he pretends to personal infallibility in matters of faith. It can be said: Protestantism is a vulgarized papism, only stripped of mystery (i.e., sacramentality), authority and power." - St. Justin Popovic, from "Papism as the oldest Protestanism" (this article can easily be found online)
Thank you both! My Greek Cypriot grandma also used to tell me not to cross my legs or wiggle about on the chairs :D I was a kid! I don't know her reasons but now I just think of it as a reverence thing.
It's a distraction in church for children to be children (when bored and restless in the very long church services). Children felt it was torture to sit still for hours - and churches realizing that had children attend a separate school style setting where they sang and put on plays, etcetera.
@@kellikelli4413 we never had that (separate services for children) in Cyprus. In fact, I can guarantee no orthodox church does separate services for children. Different activities is entirely different from the divine liturgy.
@@MappingAmy FYI - You're wrong. A separate building or section away from church services for the children DOES exist (its not church services for children) it's as I described - more like religious arts & crafts, singing & preparing plays (theater 🎭) for an hour. Then they join the church services for the last hour.
This is great, thanks Jay. I think he hit the nail on the head with 14:55 - 15:28. It's also good to see you interact with someone where it's obvious you have a lot of respect and admiration for, etc. Proof to the haters that you can be meek and humble when the occasion legitimately calls for it.
It would be good if Fr. John would have a discussion with these catholic online apologists to answer the multitude of fault accusations they level at the Church. No offense to Jay. They've just written him off at this point, so someone else needs to start chipping in
Every time someone brings up "submission to the state" as an argument against Orthodoxy, what do they have to say about the heroic stance of the Church of Ukraine vs Zelensky? Of course the Orthodox Church is going to cooperate with the State, following Christ's command in the Bible (render to Caesar what's his...) according also to Symphonia, the actual political theology of the Church before temporal claims of the Papacy came around. But this is when it DOESN'T go against it. 1) Every leader in the world is there because God allows it and 2) Orthodoxy is uncompromisable, are not mutually exclusive realities!
Well of course the Ukrainian Orthodox Church has resisted Zelenskyy since they are part of the Moscow patriarchate. It is a problem mostly with just the Russian Orthodox Church, and I would argue submissiveness to government is not a problem, unless being submissive means publicly approving actions which contradict the Christian faith
I am looking forward to Jay's critiques of the relationship between the Patriarch of Moscow during the time of the rise of the Moscovites and the subsequent rulers of Russia.
Excellent discussion! Excellent questions, and enlightening responses. Thank you! Fr. John sounds like an exemplary and brilliant church leader like we need more of in this exceptionally challenging moment in history. What is happening to this country is beyond disturbing.
Great work! Just a little bit of nitpicking : it is not true that Constantinople ceased to use the title "Ecumenical Patriarch" after the controversy with St Gregory the Dialogist, since the use of this title by St Tarasius in the VIIIth century was one of the things that irritated Pope Hadrian I, who speaks about it in his Synodical Letter (in the original Latin version) - this passage was suppressed in the Greek version read at Nicæa II to avoid any diplomatic disaster due to this old quarrel. In the next century the title is still used for St Photios the Great in the Acts of Constantinople IV if I remember well. I think this bit was some unfortunate Russian primal anti-Phanar propaganda, which is not needed in order to rightly criticized the Phanar's current policy.
I really like the conversation Fr John Whiteford had with Fr Mathew Baker of blessed memory back in 2014, moderated by Kevin Allen also of blessed memory, on Ancient Faith Radio, entitled The Pope and the Patriarch. It’s well worth a listen.
The fact that the papacy isnt considered idolatry by many is strange. a man at the head of the Church worshipped, but not God himself? that sounds so much like idolatry.
With regard to widowed or divorced clergy being allowed to remarry, is that not permissible by canonical “oikonomia” at the discretion of the bishop? I’ve heard that is in keeping with Orthodox canon law and that it has been done hundreds of times or more over the course of the history of the Church, for example in Serbia during and after WW2.
Crossing your legs is a casual position. It indicates too much comfort and irreverence and thus not appropriate for worship. It is similar to standing with your hands in your pant pockets. -an Antiochian priest
Sorry but you are lumping all Protestants together and they are vastly different. I dislike bashing Christian groups by other so-called Christian groups. The tenants of faith in Christ are similar based on scripture. The difference comes in religious practices and rites which are not all based on scripture. In my experience, many mainstream Protestant churches follow liturgy like the Catholics and Orthodox which does little for true faith. In other words, form over substance. A true believer has a relationship with the Almighty through Christ and invites the Holy Spirit to inspire and guide a holy life dedicated the faith and good works. Many Catholics, Orthodox and mainstream Protestants focus so much on form (sacraments), I believe they miss the purpose of them. (Substance). Many have left churches of all types because liberalism contrary to biblical teaching has crept in to the point there is no biblical standard. Saying you are Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant or other has no meaning in the Kingdom of God. These are manmade constructs and terms. Jesus called out the Pharisees for this very issue. There are true believers under each of these titles but those tiles don’t convey true belief. Please work on uniting the body under truth found in scripture rather than arguing over this or that practice as the only path to God. Christ alone is that path.
In my opinion with the church in Ukraine submitting to the government is that they forgot who The Provider is. "The Lord does not let the righteous go hungry, but he thwarts the craving of the wicked." (Proverbs 10:3). They have not put their trust in God. Prayers for Ukraine and that they come back to our Lord. ☦
Great conversation! Thank you Father! Thank you, Jay! On a different note, I'm from a Russian background. Everyone in my family crosses their legs all the time. No one around me ever said it's rude. Shrug*.
If you look at the Anglican churches in the UK today. All the men have left unless they are really old. The only way I can learn to paint Icons is through an Anglican Church Priest who was taught by an orthodox icon painter. When I go its a bunch of aging women Chatting and bitching about the day to day drama and pointless church minutiae. Its become more about the Tea and the Biscuits and 'being nice' it has nothing to do with Philosophy or Theology. To be fair the icon teacher is a guy who is very invested in the theology and techniques of icon painting. I just think this is one consiquence of women priests. It becomes an old, tired, irrelevant social institution and all the energy drains out..
I've only heard that leg crossing is bad only as applying to women because it is a sexually provocative pose that exposes the inside of your leg. It's sort of common sense to keep at bay in church any body language that could disturb the equilibrium of the opposite sex and distract from prayer. Whether this particular conventionality is objectively true or just based on someone's opinion, that's up for debate. However, the extension of this particular rule to men sounds like someone somewhere along the way may have misunderstood something. There are falsely scrupulous individuals in all churches unfortunately, especially those 'babushkas', truth be told. Some priests are better at gently curtailing their enthusiasm for randomly correcting other parishioners than others. Superstitions are definitely a thing with many of these self-appointed order-watchers. Having gown up emersed in Russian culture, I've never heard of leg crossing specifying anything meaningful culturally or socially at all, though maybe it is in middle-eastern. In fact i've observed women from Russia that are newcomers to orthodoxy have a greater tendency to cross legs in church than those that have been in the church from birth and may not even be very Russian. Really a minor thing in the bigger scheme of things. Either way, if anything, it is a chastity thing, not a cultural one.
Spirit/πνεῦμα is central to Christianity. In truth, Spirit and God are one and the same whereas Christ as Spirit is incarnated in the flesh. The flesh is crucified and reveals Spirit. The incarnation is a mystery that ordinary humans cannot see because ordinary humans are so fettered by the flesh that they are almost purblind.
I know a lot of muslim countries think having the sole of your feet visible is rude. Something to do with disrepecting allah. I was told to uncross my legs in a restaurant in Egypt. Hence why you see people slapping each other with slippers whenever it kicks off 🥿 and the famous slapping the collapsing sadam statue with the sole of their slippers.
I can't listen Jay. I'm steadfast not neither any of the MSR. Come out of Babylon and learn how to number your days. We are the Son's of Light and have no part in darkness. Enoch chapter 41. The course of the moons path is light to the Righteous and darkness to the wicked. It's that simple. A full moon is a New Moon and the morning is the first day of the month. Read Jubilee.
![[UA] NAVI vs MOUZ | BO5 | IEM Rio 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CMBYk0cbGoA/mqdefault.jpg)
Please share these videos to help grow the channel which gets little algo promotion. Be sure to like, share, comment and subscribe as well as turn on notifications.
This is a very useful conversation. Jay and Fr Whiteford are more widely read than the the majority of us, may God bless this channel to reach more people (though it ain’t doing too bad already).
I love your work, father.
Fr, please pray for me and my family.
Fr Spyridon is based and redpilled. Appreciate the mystical exegesis in his homilies. Unique, grounding and important contribution in these unbalanced times in the West and beyond.
Father Spyridon was instrumental to my conversion from Catholicism to Orthodoxy. Thank you Father. God bless.
Fr John does such a good job of explaining how Protestantism and Roman Papism are results of the same wrong approach, despite being polar opposites in many ways.
I love to listen to Fr John, everytime i see him he is full of wisdom and keeps everything on a level everyone can understand. Hope he comes back soon
I think Dostoevsky said it best in The Brother’s Karamazov that Rome’s mistake was in trying to turn the Church into the state. Their whole hierarchy is so bureaucratic and corrupt. Rather, we should strive to turn the state into the Church; the state should strive to uphold the teachings of the faith, but keep clergy out of such worldly and easily corruptible matters
How did that work out for Russia?
@@albertatrafficante4261 I never said all the independent churches are prefect. Kirill's deep involvement with the Russian state is a problem. But it doesn't rot the entire Church like the pope's mistakes
@@lbwnova6654 We had to 266 successors of Peter in Rome. You are just taking a snap shot of one moment in time. The only Church Pope Francis is destroying is the one that was formed by the Modernists. Eternal Rome will always be. We Roman Catholics that hold onto our Traditions are going to out last Modern Rome. Sacred Tradition is our future and Pope Francis can't stop it.
@albertatrafficante4261 I believe that the Roman catholic church will be instrumental to the rise of the one world religion of the future aka the religion of the antichrist and Francis will be a key player in this
AMEN
Jay , you are answering so many questions we have .Thank you so much from South Africa 🙏
"Papism indeed is the most radical Protestantism, because it has transferred the foundation of Christianity from the eternal God-Man to ephemeral man. And it has proclaimed this as the paramount dogma, which means: the paramount value, the paramount measure of all beings and things in the world. And the Protestants merely accepted this dogma in its essence, and worked it out in terrifying magnitude and detail. Essentially, Protestantism is nothing other than a generally applied papism. For in Protestantism, the fundamental principle of papism is brought to life by each man individually. After the example of the infallible man in Rome, each Protestant is a cloned infallible man, because he pretends to personal infallibility in matters of faith. It can be said: Protestantism is a vulgarized papism, only stripped of mystery (i.e., sacramentality), authority and power."
- St. Justin Popovic, from "Papism as the oldest Protestanism" (this article can easily be found online)
Thank you both! My Greek Cypriot grandma also used to tell me not to cross my legs or wiggle about on the chairs :D I was a kid! I don't know her reasons but now I just think of it as a reverence thing.
It's a distraction in church for children to be children (when bored and restless in the very long church services).
Children felt it was torture to sit still for hours - and churches realizing that had children attend a separate school style setting where they sang and put on plays, etcetera.
@@kellikelli4413 we never had that (separate services for children) in Cyprus. In fact, I can guarantee no orthodox church does separate services for children. Different activities is entirely different from the divine liturgy.
@@MappingAmy
FYI - You're wrong.
A separate building or section away from church services for the children DOES exist (its not church services for children) it's as I described - more like religious arts & crafts, singing & preparing plays (theater 🎭) for an hour.
Then they join the church services for the last hour.
@@MappingAmy
Cyprus isn't the world Amy, so it's presumptuous for you to use Cyprus as a bellweather for what goes on in the rest of the world ...
@@kellikelli4413 is this an Orthodox church?
When I was deployed in Iraq we were also told that the culture considers it rude to show someone the bottoms of your feet
This is great, thanks Jay. I think he hit the nail on the head with 14:55 - 15:28. It's also good to see you interact with someone where it's obvious you have a lot of respect and admiration for, etc. Proof to the haters that you can be meek and humble when the occasion legitimately calls for it.
Good observation 👍
Fantastic interview/discussion
It would be good if Fr. John would have a discussion with these catholic online apologists to answer the multitude of fault accusations they level at the Church.
No offense to Jay. They've just written him off at this point, so someone else needs to start chipping in
1:10:33 - the scaffolding is such a great point
Thanks for this episode. I live 2 hrs from Houston, and am planning to visit Fr John’s church in the next couple months.
Every time someone brings up "submission to the state" as an argument against Orthodoxy, what do they have to say about the heroic stance of the Church of Ukraine vs Zelensky?
Of course the Orthodox Church is going to cooperate with the State, following Christ's command in the Bible (render to Caesar what's his...) according also to Symphonia, the actual political theology of the Church before temporal claims of the Papacy came around.
But this is when it DOESN'T go against it. 1) Every leader in the world is there because God allows it and 2) Orthodoxy is uncompromisable, are not mutually exclusive realities!
Well of course the Ukrainian Orthodox Church has resisted Zelenskyy since they are part of the Moscow patriarchate. It is a problem mostly with just the Russian Orthodox Church, and I would argue submissiveness to government is not a problem, unless being submissive means publicly approving actions which contradict the Christian faith
☦️☦️☦️
Jay, you should do a video critiquing Arguments for the Existence of God, I wanna know which ones are good and which ones are not so good.
I have
Here is one ua-cam.com/video/Hd2uICRds2w/v-deo.html
Here's another ua-cam.com/video/1wfiA0bkc50/v-deo.html
@@JayDyer Thanks man, this is awesome
I am looking forward to Jay's critiques of the relationship between the Patriarch of Moscow during the time of the rise of the Moscovites and the subsequent rulers of Russia.
Excellent discussion! Excellent questions, and enlightening responses. Thank you! Fr. John sounds like an exemplary and brilliant church leader like we need more of in this exceptionally challenging moment in history. What is happening to this country is beyond disturbing.
J dayer is the best at explaining historical religions and cults 👍
Great work! Just a little bit of nitpicking : it is not true that Constantinople ceased to use the title "Ecumenical Patriarch" after the controversy with St Gregory the Dialogist, since the use of this title by St Tarasius in the VIIIth century was one of the things that irritated Pope Hadrian I, who speaks about it in his Synodical Letter (in the original Latin version) - this passage was suppressed in the Greek version read at Nicæa II to avoid any diplomatic disaster due to this old quarrel. In the next century the title is still used for St Photios the Great in the Acts of Constantinople IV if I remember well. I think this bit was some unfortunate Russian primal anti-Phanar propaganda, which is not needed in order to rightly criticized the Phanar's current policy.
👑👑
Great conversation. God bless ☦️☦️☦️
This is great content; thank you 👍👍
☦️🙏☦️🙏☦️
Jay: likes so many random comments
Father Spyridon: comments
Jay: *doesn't like it*
I really like the conversation Fr John Whiteford had with Fr Mathew Baker of blessed memory back in 2014, moderated by Kevin Allen also of blessed memory, on Ancient Faith Radio, entitled The Pope and the Patriarch. It’s well worth a listen.
A great discussion. Does Fr. John have a blog/ channel? Thank you both.
The fact that the papacy isnt considered idolatry by many is strange. a man at the head of the Church worshipped, but not God himself? that sounds so much like idolatry.
... what a stupid statement to say.
It is, and always has been. Papal infallibility has ALWAYS been an issue. As the Bible says, there's nothing new under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 1:9
There are plenty of damaging arguments against the papacy without resorting to Jack Chick-tier arguments that Roman Catholics worship the Pope .
@@perfectlambministry777.How is it a stupid statement. explain. Its idolatry.
@@CosmicMystery7The pope was given his entire own state. yeaah, totally not idolatrous whatsoever.
With regard to widowed or divorced clergy being allowed to remarry, is that not permissible by canonical “oikonomia” at the discretion of the bishop? I’ve heard that is in keeping with Orthodox canon law and that it has been done hundreds of times or more over the course of the history of the Church, for example in Serbia during and after WW2.
Crossing your legs is a casual position. It indicates too much comfort and irreverence and thus not appropriate for worship. It is similar to standing with your hands in your pant pockets. -an Antiochian priest
☦️💪🇮🇹🙏
2:57
9:54
Sorry but you are lumping all Protestants together and they are vastly different. I dislike bashing Christian groups by other so-called Christian groups. The tenants of faith in Christ are similar based on scripture. The difference comes in religious practices and rites which are not all based on scripture. In my experience, many mainstream Protestant churches follow liturgy like the Catholics and Orthodox which does little for true faith. In other words, form over substance. A true believer has a relationship with the Almighty through Christ and invites the Holy Spirit to inspire and guide a holy life dedicated the faith and good works. Many Catholics, Orthodox and mainstream Protestants focus so much on form (sacraments), I believe they miss the purpose of them. (Substance). Many have left churches of all types because liberalism contrary to biblical teaching has crept in to the point there is no biblical standard. Saying you are Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant or other has no meaning in the Kingdom of God. These are manmade constructs and terms. Jesus called out the Pharisees for this very issue. There are true believers under each of these titles but those tiles don’t convey true belief. Please work on uniting the body under truth found in scripture rather than arguing over this or that practice as the only path to God. Christ alone is that path.
Just one (a bit provocative) question: what is the problem with "letting" the schism happen? Is it not necessary to separate the wheat from the chaff?
How do you explain first Corinthians 7:9 and St Peter's exhortation to obey the emperor
Explain what about it exactly ?
@@JayDyer the first represents a desecration of marriage and the second is ordering us to obey paedophiles
In my opinion with the church in Ukraine submitting to the government is that they forgot who The Provider is. "The Lord does not let the righteous go hungry, but he thwarts the craving of the wicked." (Proverbs 10:3). They have not put their trust in God. Prayers for Ukraine and that they come back to our Lord. ☦
What is the Alexandera document?
I have a question, is it still possible nowadays to have an ecumenical council without having an emperor to call for it?
pan-orthodox synods yes
This was very educational I plan on watching a fee times. Very good information!
Can anyone help me are Toll houses theologically correct or not? I’ve read different views from different fathers.
Great conversation! Thank you Father! Thank you, Jay! On a different note, I'm from a Russian background. Everyone in my family crosses their legs all the time. No one around me ever said it's rude. Shrug*.
is there a citation for the priest who was defrocked for insulting a pro-choice citizen? I'm not sure I understand the amplification of those words
They are misinformed or lying. The latter I wouldn't attribute to Father.
The Pillar has a good "explainer" on Mr Frank Pavone.
😇❤🙏👍
Based
If you look at the Anglican churches in the UK today. All the men have left unless they are really old.
The only way I can learn to paint Icons is through an Anglican Church Priest who was taught by an orthodox icon painter.
When I go its a bunch of aging women Chatting and bitching about the day to day drama and pointless church minutiae.
Its become more about the Tea and the Biscuits and 'being nice' it has nothing to do with Philosophy or Theology.
To be fair the icon teacher is a guy who is very invested in the theology and techniques of icon painting.
I just think this is one consiquence of women priests. It becomes an old, tired, irrelevant social institution and all the energy drains out..
I've only heard that leg crossing is bad only as applying to women because it is a sexually provocative pose that exposes the inside of your leg. It's sort of common sense to keep at bay in church any body language that could disturb the equilibrium of the opposite sex and distract from prayer. Whether this particular conventionality is objectively true or just based on someone's opinion, that's up for debate. However, the extension of this particular rule to men sounds like someone somewhere along the way may have misunderstood something. There are falsely scrupulous individuals in all churches unfortunately, especially those 'babushkas', truth be told. Some priests are better at gently curtailing their enthusiasm for randomly correcting other parishioners than others. Superstitions are definitely a thing with many of these self-appointed order-watchers. Having gown up emersed in Russian culture, I've never heard of leg crossing specifying anything meaningful culturally or socially at all, though maybe it is in middle-eastern. In fact i've observed women from Russia that are newcomers to orthodoxy have a greater tendency to cross legs in church than those that have been in the church from birth and may not even be very Russian. Really a minor thing in the bigger scheme of things. Either way, if anything, it is a chastity thing, not a cultural one.
Spirit/πνεῦμα is central to Christianity. In truth, Spirit and God are one and the same whereas Christ as Spirit is incarnated in the flesh. The flesh is crucified and reveals Spirit. The incarnation is a mystery that ordinary humans cannot see because ordinary humans are so fettered by the flesh that they are almost purblind.
I know a lot of muslim countries think having the sole of your feet visible is rude. Something to do with disrepecting allah. I was told to uncross my legs in a restaurant in Egypt.
Hence why you see people slapping each other with slippers whenever it kicks off 🥿 and the famous slapping the collapsing sadam statue with the sole of their slippers.
I find this interesting. Just not smart enough to understand what they are talking about.
They could at least try to get the name right...
It's the Catholic church.
No Romans in sight.
I can't listen Jay.
I'm steadfast not neither any of the MSR.
Come out of Babylon and learn how to number your days.
We are the Son's of Light and have no part in darkness.
Enoch chapter 41.
The course of the moons path is light to the Righteous and darkness to the wicked.
It's that simple.
A full moon is a New Moon and the morning is the first day of the month.
Read Jubilee.
laity are free to discern geopolitics especially pertaining to the living Church. he has read Jubilee
🥱
Full blown prelest