Steve and Michelle, I can’t tell you how nourishing this presentation/conversation was to my soul-thank you! God is so good to freely forgive us when we are willing to turn away from sin, and I am overwhelmed with how much power each person’s turning brings to the cause of truth. This reminds me of the equally wonderful episode with Gary Arnell. These good men give me hope for the wonderful brethren at all levels of church leadership. Learning, changing, choosing love of God and our fellow man above all-so beautiful.
@@MichelleBStone So Michelle I loved this it reminds me of myself 20 years ago. I found in Jacob Ch 1 v 15 If we Disire Poly... We Have Hard Hearts It says the people of Nephi, began to grow hard in their hearts,Began wicked practices,like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son. Just thougnt I would pass this on to you. Thanks for helping me come to the TRUTH.
I watched it a second time from a psychoanalytic perspective. He’s not believable. Too many inconveniences and cries at the wrong time. The emotional ploy is to cover more nefarious deeds. I don’t buy it. Crocodile tears and tone and timber problems. Also. Facial expressions are odd to the statements he makes. Then he seems to manipulate Michelle’s emotional connection almost like a car sales guy. Sorry. He’s lying.
Just wanted to share an experience I had recently. I was completely overwhelmed at Christmastime to the point that I kneeled in prayer to ask the Lord’s help. And he answered so quickly by saying, “I came into the world to lift you from the burdens of this life”. And I felt completely humbled in creating unnecessary stress to celebrate His birth. I thought of this story when you were talking about getting ready for church on Sunday, Michelle.
Steve, thank you for being brave enough to share this perspective. Most thinking women realize that this is what polygamy does to men--it gives permission to do (or just imagine) what the natural man (an enemy to God) wants. Your story is so important for church leaders to recognize. They seem oblivious to this damage to the spiritual life of men. That's wonderful that this struggle has all turned out well for you. Something unrelated: what was Brian Hales doing at a faith crisis meeting? Did he think sharing his ideas and books about Jospeh being a polygamist married to young girls and married women mostly behind Emma's back would help anyone's faith?
@@kathybence it's not about helping people's faith. It's about being transparent on what is true and what actually happened. The worst thing one can do is hide what happen, even if it's uncomfortable information. That is why I see this whole polygamy denial movement so disturbing and sick to peoples faith in the long run. Yeah it can make someone feel good that Joseph didn't practice polygamy. But when the truth is hidden, when they finally realize what he really did, who will lose their faith then?
@@hopeforpeace1 If Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy, that would suggest temples are a sham. Prophets don't exist anymore since Brigham onward are apostate conspirators. Families can't be together forever since many families were polygamous in the Church and in Biblical History. I can't trust anything Joseph said about the Church being spread all across the Earth. It is not Joseph Smith not practicing polygamy that would shatter my faith in the restored gospel, it would be the conspiracy that surrounded it including Joseph's lies about the last dispensation and setting up Christs restored Church. I don't know why anyone who believes as Michelle could twist around those facts and stay in an apostate Church.
@ If Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy, that would suggest temples are a sham. Prophets don't exist anymore since Brigham onward are apostate conspirators. Families can't be together forever since many families were polygamous in the Church and in Biblical History. I can't trust anything Joseph said about the Church being spread all across the Earth. It is not Joseph Smith not practicing polygamy that would shatter my faith in the restored gospel, it would be the conspiracy that surrounded it including Joseph's lies about the last dispensation and setting up Christs restored Church.
O Lord, remove our blindness, forgive our sins and weaknesses, give to us a new heart that we may become children of the Most High God. We acknowledge our unworthiness. We are descended from rebellious and wayward ancestors and know that without your mercy we will remain in an awful state, unprepared for the return of our Lord in glory. The scriptures foretell of a latter-day recovery of your people, and of natural fruit returning to your vineyard. We seek to be part of that so you may value us as yours and preserve us against the coming season of harvest.
@StompMom5 Those aren't my words, but rather from the Boise 2017 Prayer for Covenant. As I have accepted and try and abide that covenant each day, in a real sense, I guess you could say they are mine too. God bless you!
This was so timely for me. An answer to my prayers today. God will not deviate from his sacred commandment to cleave unto your husband or wife and none else. He never has and he never will. The church as a whole has not been able to abandon polygamy because they are really doubling down on the idea that it is actually authorized at times. I struggle with so many false teachings that have been taught and are being taught which have no scriptural backing. This video is healing.
“God” is quite literally the living witness that defies and condemns polygamy by Gods very existence. Mankind was made male and female (one of each) in the literal image of God. I’m glad to hear this video was healing for you. I’m unsurprised to hear that because Christ’s Voice was found in it and Christ is the Master Healer. “Whether by my own Voice of the voice of my servants, it is the same” indeed.
Yes, pride goes with polygamy in other ways, too. I have dozens of ancestors who "were righteous enough to be asked to live that principle", only a small percentage of lds actually did- at least this was the narrative i was taught. So we had a lot of pride in "our" adulterous ancestors.... because they were "righteous." Talk about calling good evil and evil good!!!!
This is really beautiful and timely for me. Thank you, Steve, for your vulnerability and inspiration in sharing your perspective and experience. Lots of emotion in this one for me... part of me wants to continue feeling justified in the rut I’ve been in where I feel like I can’t trust or acknowledge the good that there is in the church because there has been this great wrong, and there continue to be wrongs. It seems easier to surrender to a false belief system or just pretend not to care about what’s actually true than to do the difficult work of sorting out for myself what is true and walking this nuanced line of being involved in the church and supporting all that’s good and right while not subscribing to all of it. But I feel to say Hallelujah because I know that through Jesus Christ all things are possible and all truth will be revealed in time!
Just as the Lord can teach you the truth of all things regarding this issue, he can show you the truth of what he wants you to specifically do with it. I wanted to fight. I wanted to be a contrarian voice and instead he asked me to be a church affirming voice. I’m certain you will receive answers.
Wow, so much gold in this episode. I had to pause different times to take notes. Steve, thank you so much for sharing your experiences and some of the wisdom you've gained through your journey. Michelle, thank you! I especially found helpful the discussion on how to know if your experience or knowledge is from God. You are both awesome.
The idea that Joseph was a polygamist did not bother my testimony. Finding out he was Not a polygamist did not hurt my testimony, but grew my testimony of the Book of Mormon and Joseph. But the Church being willing to believe the lie and teaching the lie, that helped destroy all my belief in the Church.
@@joyfulsurety that is so sad to hear, but so valid. I desperately wish the leaders of the church could hear your experience and understand how valid It is and how common it is.
I'm with you! It's the continual teaching of the lies that give the church no creditability in my opinion. But I have come to love the BOM more than any time in my life ❤️.
I agree with one caveat: God said the gospel would never be removed from the earth again. Brigham Young almost destroyed the church BUT the GOSPEL is still here. I'm a convert so my faith has never been in an organization run by the arm of flesh. My covenants are with God. The church leadership will come around. And if they don't, the sin is upon their heads for not seeking wisdom and confirmation. My deep feeling is that BYU creates a problem. It never should have been named after him.
@@reppi8742 I agree with you. I do suggest studying out the idea that the gospel will never again be taken from the Earth. I don't think there are good sources for that. The closest scripture we have is Daniel 2 verse 44, which, as an OT verse is pretty difficult to apply specifically to ourselves. There is nothing in the BoM, or D&C, or the words of Joseph Smith. The earliest claim I have been able to find is Wilford Woodruff Dec. 21, 1869, and even then it is about the keys of the kingdom, which really is about the church. I don't think God's word or work can be destroyed, or taken from the Earth. I think everyone who is willing to repent and seek God can be answered. I agree that there is power in the church, and truth in our understanding of the gospel, and I have great hope for our church.
The indoctrination of children is too much and over the top. They are saying to children that Joseph did have a roll in the hay with Fanny and it was Joseph in the barn practicing polygamy. I’m blasphemy and perverse. Absolutely corrupt. We are OUT!!!
Listening to this is filling my soul with the spirit. It makes me want to stand up in fast and testimony meeting today and declare my witness against believing in polygamy. I desperately wish I could without shocking the whole ward family. I’ll instead keep sweet and silent for now. But some day I hope to shout hallelujah when this doctrine is forsaken.
I just spoke my testimony today. I think it's important the ward knows our testimonies of Jesu, of Heavenly Father, of the Holy Ghost, of the miracles that happen in our lives, the book of Mormon and the power it contains. We can share what we learn from the BoM. By doing this every month, the members feel and know your testimony, then when it comes up about polygamy or any false doctrine, the past testimonies and relationship with us they will really listen to what we have to say, they will feel the power of truth when it will be spoken in kindness. There will be a time to do that, so we can't stay silent.
@@MommaCrissaYou are right. The more I share my testimony of the things we agree upon, the stronger our relationship and trust will be when I eventually feel prompted to bring up this subject.
I used to share my testimony often, but after learning more about this polygamy issue, among some other things, it caused me to become angry. I told myself not to share my testimony at church anymore. I'm so blessed that the Spirit is still working with me, and my heart is softening again . I wanted to share today, but I still don't know where I am. This conversation helped me. Scripture of the day, "But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint." Isaiah 40:31
Thanks so much for this episode! I don't think we comprehend the damage. Polygamy does to men in our church. I personally had to confront a family member who was a stake president at the time he was having an emotional affair with a woman in leadership in his stake. He told me what he was doing was OK because of polygamy. Also an in law who was a bishop was excommunicated because of an affair with a widow in his ward, and his excuse was also because of polygamy. If I personally know two men that did this how many more are there?
@@tennisgirl57 Woah! Having an affair has nothing to do with believing polygamy was practiced by holy men and women. You are fitting a square in a circular hole with that logic. People who use the atonement as an excuse for committing sin does not mean the atonement is harmful for people. It just means people have abused and warped what it really is.
@@tennisgirl57 People excuse the atonement for letting them do whatever they want. That doesn't mean the doctrine of the atonement is damaging for men or women.
@@tennisgirl57 Exactly. Believing that polygamy happened and was sanction by God is the apple. Using it as an excuse to disobey God's commandment of adultery is the orange. Polygamy and the Atonement arr both tools (apples) God has used historically. That doesn't make them weapons. (Oranges)
I love how spontaneously many of us (who used to believe polygamy was a true principle and that joseph introduced it) feel the need to repent of those false beliefs when we come to know it's actually a doctrine of devils, and Joseph did not introduce it. That was my experience, after decades of believing that lie. It felt sooooo good to repent of that false belief!!! ❤❤❤ and so many others include that step in their journey to the truth about God, Joseph, and polygamy.
Definitely 😇🙏. When I took this matter to God myself and had the most amazing experience I'll never forget. One thing I'll also never forget is the chastisement I also received. I had never gotten to know God because I was just going along with the church and leaders and that's not who or what we worship. We worship God only and as members that's our biggest problem.
Only problem calling it doctrine of devils is that it is literally written in scripture as a ordained thing practiced by many prophets and never rebuked by God when practiced correctly.
I do want to point out that finding a path of light outside of the church can be incredibly difficult because there really is nothing "ready made" to fall into. The pitfalls of being outside the Church are probably greater than staying in the Church. I don't think that's because of keys but because of resources. If you're going to step away, you have to be a builder of Zion. Being a keyboard critic is really tempting and easy to fall into. I've been in that rut myself. There is good fruit to be found outside the Church but you've got to be led to it by the Lord. That's the only answer I've found. It's not easily accessible in Facebook groups or forums. There's lots of darkness there, largely because of the blowback effect. But light can be found . . . Or better yet . . . Made.
I think it is so important for each of us to seek and receive direction from the Lord. There have been two times times when I didn't see how I could stay, and didn't think I should, but I have always been strongly directed to stay, and if nothing else, I am so glad I have stayed for the sake of my children (although in my opinion there are many other benefits -- many.) I do strongly believe that staying in the church is worthwhile and important for a large variety of reasons, but I'm not going to tell anybody else what they need to do or what is going to be right for them. People have different lives, community and situations. I hope we each can follow God, wherever and however we feel directed to do so.
@@MichelleBStonethe way I figure is that if we believed that the keys were restored by angels in the form of Peter, James, and John, then it stands to reason the Lord can send them again to his prophets who were worthy. So I believe they must have cleansed the leadership at some point. I believe 100% that the current church is true. I would love to have them rename BYU and come out and clear Joseph’s name but I feel they are avoiding it to prevent a huge falling out. The church has always been about teaching basic principles to help people return to heavenly father, that’s it. We just gotta keep it simple so as many people can receive the covenants to return to Heavenly Father. But I yearn for the Millenial day and for Zion to be here now. There won’t be a church, it will just be his kingdom and Christ will lead. How glorious.
Wow the slide "The Standard Narrative Destroys Faith" ! If it didn't have Joseph's face I would think it was about Brigham Young! Polygamy didn't grow the church or the population of Utah. The US Census' bear that out. How many millions more would have joined or remained or been born in the church if polygamy was not practiced? I can relate completely to what Bro Baer is saying. I have had extremely significant spiritual experiences in the temple. Those experiences could not have happened if the temple wasn't what it truly is. Bro Baer is a humble, honest, sincere man. ❤
Steve, if you ever read this…Your experiences in the lds temples were authentic indeed, but not because of those buildings. It was YOU. YOU were the temple. You have a special heart that’s not at all common in this world, especially for a male. God bless brother
Yeah that little asterisk is 100% polygamy. I heard somebody say that today in church and that’s exactly the thought I had, so I’m glad the guest brought that up.
Near the end of the video. While we disagree regarding polygyny, Brother Steve gives a great message about humility. It's easy for sides to accuse the other of not being humble for this reason or that. But the ability to keep asking, "Am I wrong?" Or "what am I missing" is an essential element to humility and being able to come to the truth.
Exactly! Polygamy actually greatly halted the growth of the church. How many marriages were destroyed? How many children were never born? How many people had to leave the church because of polygamy. I have male ancestors that had to leave because they could find or maintain wives because of the dirty old men.
Who told you that? Where's any evidence of that?? There is none. What is real is... It did happen and here we are and absolute truth. Whereas, yours is a dreamy fantasy of ice cream and rainbows. Good thing we have prophets and the Holy Ghost to keep it all real... right?? 😇
@@godsoffspring4195 One of the main reasons given for polygamy in Utah was that there weren't enough men to go around and that is not true. Research the senses records of Utah during that time and you will find it is not true. In modern FLDS they have what are called the lost boys. Term given to the "surplus" of males left over after the old farts rob them of the young women. That was pretty much the way it was back then in the LDS church. Look up some of the ages of girls who were being married off to older men because the old man got the hots for them and traded favors with Brigham so he would "give" the girl to him. A youtuber, Gendolyn Wyne had an ancestor who was only 12. It is pretty scary to venture into the truth but eventually you will recognize it for what it was. Pure evil and the women, children and many of the men suffered because of it. If you think Joseph started it you better think again.
@@icecreamladydriver1606 No... those are just reasons people thought up to try and explain why. The proper answer is, Joseph and the Lord knew what was coming and the church was facing genocide!! It was because of plural unions the church grew exceedingly. We have the proof that has happened. On the other hand you have ZERO evidence it would have flourished otherwise. Smith started the spiritual end of it. His death(murder) kicked off the need for the physical part of things. You guys are simply uneducated and have not the Holy Ghost regarding this issue. Leaves in the wind......
@MichelleBStone.. thank you for this episode. I appreciate your great work and efforts to bring this truth to light. I am a convert to the church and for all my years in the Church I have always felt strongly and believed that Polygamy was not of God. My biggest question always leads me back to trying to understand and ask: where does this leave us with the sealing power in regards to marriage in the Temple?? Especially when the sealers seal more than one wife?? How can I do temple marriage sealings for my ancestors knowing that other people can seal my direct ancestors to other wives?? Its so extremely complicated and confusing??
Excellent question. My personal feeling is that the Holy Spirit of Promise cannot seal (ratify, solemize, legitimize) any ordinance where in obedience to that covenant has not been kept. If therefore a man desires more than one wife either in this life or the next, he is in violation of the law of chastity and he cannot and will not obtain the blessing. That applies to any man or women who thinks a threesome will exhist in eternity. God is a God of truth and cannot lie.
It's especially weird when they seal a woman to multiple men because she was married to four different men and had children with each man with the idea that God will work it out and their agency has everything to do with the acceptance of the ordinance. Sealings present so many unanswered questions for me. i wish the doctrine was more clear and the revelation on it wasn't mingled with the lies in 132.
@@littleredhen3218yes I agree!! We need clear transparency from the church leaders to clarify what exactly the sealings mean. Oaks isn't even sure what it means ( referring to his conference address) ... where do we find answers??
I agree that belief in polygamy justifies pornography use and infidelity in this church. I have had 3 temple marriages and all of the men were unfairhful, 2 in actual infidelity and 1 with emotional affair, and all unrepentant. All 3 believe in polygamy. It has been so heart wrenching. Its subconscious effect of belief in polygamy in the church that men often get a backslap and a toast and the poor women are seen at fault when infidelity and pornography use or addiction is occurring.
@@RunningtoHim828 It boggles my mind to agree with Michelle and still want to go to Sunday School. Yall need a different Church to practice your faith. This Church is apostate if 132 is a sham.
If someone doesn't sue the church for teaching their underaged primary children about polygamy (which is illegal) against their will, knowledge, and parental consent. Should be a fun ride in 2025 indeed!
I believe that humility means that we seek for truth. When I was in the MTC, Elder Ballard taught us that humility means, "coming to a fullness of the knowledge of the Son of God." Because Christ is the way, the truth, and the life, then humility must mean seeking for those things; we knock, ask, and seek for those things. We put our ego on the alter and accept all truth. We stop pretending to have blessings we do not have. We seek to honestly see the world and the Savior as they really are.
Steve, Michelle, wonderful podcast. This has been part of my journey: The Only True Church? Where is it? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claims to be the only organization on earth that has true “priesthood authority” to baptize and give the gift of the Holy Ghost, making it the “only true and living church” on the earth. What makes a church “true” according to the Lord, isn’t the brick and mortar, it’s the “living” [D&C 1: 30*31] people who choose to live in holiness of character! In other words, you are the metaphor for the “only true and living church,” just as you are the metaphor for the only true and living “temple of God,” if you live in holiness of character! Hence any person of any race or religion living in holiness is fulfilling the will of the Father. If you don’t believe this, you might want to take a closer look at the doctrine and what it really says. I have been a member all my life and it has only been in these last few years that this eternal pattern unfolds more clearly. Why the metaphor, or parable of a “church?” To wake us up in fellowship with the truth! Most people are asleep to the truth that is “in” them innately! Most people don’t believe they are the true “temple of the living God” and a “self-existing beings,” co-equal and co-eternal with God, without beginning of days or end of years [King Follet Sermon by the Prophet Joseph Smith]. The more I ponder scripturally our doctrine, the more I know this truth. That all things outside myself are symbols or metaphors to awaken me spiritually and put me on the inner path of fellowship with the truth that will liberate me from the chains of lies, deceit, and false doctrines! [2 Nephi 28:9-25] A warning to all churches today. There are many paths to salvation. In “my Father’s house are many mansions” [John 14:2]. “Mansions” is a metaphor describing the many paths of brick and mortar [organized religions] that people follow through the “letter of the law,” which can captivate people and lull them away into false securities, if they don’t wake up! “These are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of one and some of another, some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch” [D&C 76: 99-100]. The “spirit of the law,” through “faith alone” [Romans 5:1; Hebrews 11:3] is the “the doctrine of Jesus Christ” [See Lectures on Faith 1:1; 7:15-17] and it is available to all people right now, this very moment if they are awake enough to embrace it completely. It is everyone’s innate birthright, and inheritance! The “letter of the law” is for all who are asleep. The “spirit of the law” is for all who are awake! In the parable of the 10 Virgins, we “all slumbered and slept” [Matthew 25]. Symbolizing “we all” go through this process to one degree or another. Then the wake-up call is heard! The wake-up call has been out since Adam and Eve left the Garden, but not too many are listening! The word “Holiness” as defined in the LDS Bible Dictionary is one of many wake-up calls. Let’s list a few more. Are you listening? Do you believe these statements or are you still asleep? 1. “God is no respecter of persons” but of a godly character! When it comes to personal salvation, it matters not what religion or race we come from! [Acts 10:34] [Romans 2:11] [D&C 1:35; 38:16, 26-27]. 2. “Power and Authority” to return to our Father in Heaven is innate to each of us! [1Nephi 10:17-22] [Words of Mormon 1:17] [Lectures on Faith 1:1; 7:15-17]. Therefore “pure religion” is about “keeping ourselves unspotted from the world” and becoming holy, honest and virtuous inside our soul. “Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards ALL men, and to the household of FAITH, [by faith alone!] and let virtue garnish thy thought UNCEASINGLY; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood [is the power and authority to love purely in virtue and honesty] shall distil upon thy soul as the dues of heaven.” What is the “doctrine of the priesthood?” It is to manifest the attributes of godliness found in D&C 121: 41-42 and it “distils” upon any “soul as the dues of heaven” who become “one” with them! 3. “Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth; And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come; And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning (D&C Section 93:23 - 25). You are a self-existing being without beginning of days or end of years, which means, you are an eternal being and always have been [Abraham 3:18]. [James 1:17-27]. 4. The atonement is an eternal principle and is innate to each of us. It literally means “one with God.” It means to become one in godliness and holiness of character! “And let every man esteem his brother as himself, and practice virtue and holiness before me…I say unto you be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine” [D&C 38:24-27]. “For the natural man is an enemy to God” (Book of Mormon | Mosiah 3:19). And to “be one” is to be “born of God!”
I find it interesting that the church in the book of Helaman went through a period of rapid growth - and then we are taught that pride entered the church, and there were many dissentions from the church.... A book written for our day.....
The reason the domino theory doesn’t work is because we as mortals are forever in need of grace and mercy through Jesus Christ. Authority is present only when the Holy Ghost is present. Direct lines of authority are only happening through us and the Holy Ghost. That’s the only access anyone has to God.
Thanks for such a courageous and faith-enhancing discussion! We all simply HAVE to CONFRONT and RESOLVE the MOST CRUCIAL HINGE-POINT QUESTION in all of the debates on Polygamy: * SINCE Joseph Smith did NOT preach or practice polygamy--and therefore all evidence indicates BY introduced that "abomination" into the Lord's Restored Church--Is the current Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints STILL the LIVING and TRUE church the Lord restored through his servant Joseph Smith TODAY--with Jesus Christ himself at its head? * (i.e., Did the keys, ordinances, covenants, and priesthood SURVIVE that 50+ years of corruption introduced by Brigham Young?) We really, really, NEED the Lord to give us a DEFINITIVE and CLEAR response to that hinge-question! * Well, He really, really HAS given us that DEFINITIVE and clear response. * And He gave us that guidance through the Book of Mormon, in Jacob Chapter 5--within the Parable of the Olive Trees. To appreciate the Lord's definitive and clear response, let's start with 2 critical truths BOTH SIDES of the Polygamy Debate completely AGREE upon: # 1) In the Parable of the Olive Tree in Jacob 5, verses 62 through 77 refer specifically to OUR DISPENSATION, the time period since Joseph Smith's First Vision. # 2) Something very, very "BAD" occurred during that Latter-Day Dispensation (ACCORDING TO those verses). How " BAD"? THIS BAD: * In the entire 77 verses of Jacob 5, the word "BAD" is RESERVED EXCLUSIVELY for vss. 65-77 (to describe something very "BAD" that occurred specifically during OUR DISPENSATION). * And that exclusive word "BAD" is used an astonishing TEN TIMES in those verses! And yet, also astonishingly, I don't think ANYONE in the church for 200 years has ever really clearly explained WHAT happened in our dispensation that was so "BAD"! I think NOW is a good time to do so. Check out all these connections: * THE ONLY OTHER TIME we find the word "BAD" in ALL SEVEN CHAPTERS of the Book of Jacob is in Jacob 2:35--when Jacob uses that word to describe the "BAD examples" of polygamous husbands, who "broke[ ] the hearts of your tender wives," causing "many hearts" to "die[ ], pierced with deep wounds and also causing "the sobbings of their hearts" to "ascend up to God against you." Wow! * I'm sure we can all agree that "BAD" is an appropriate word to describe such actions by those polygamous husbands--who were targeted and condemned by the prophet Jacob. * And I don't think it is just a coincidence that the RARELY USED word "BAD" somehow makes that conspicuous LEAP from Jacob 2 to Jacob 5:65-77. * I think we have to at least broach the probability that the word "BAD" is used in BOTH cases to describe the SAME heart-fatal treatment rendered by corrupt and proud polygamous men upon "their tender wives," inflicting such "deep wounds" within "many hearts." * Yes, the Lord (via Jacob and Zenos) is CLEARLY prophesying and warning us that the SAME really, really "BAD" thing that occurred during Jacob's time (the introduction of the abomination of polygamy) WAS to be REPEATED in our own dispensation. * And here's the GREAT NEWS in all this: the Lord is ALSO showing us--in those SAME verses (5:65-75)--that the Keys, Ordinances, Covenants, and Priesthood authority will BE PRESERVED., despite this polygamy episode in our dispensation! With all that in mind, I'll paste verses from Jacob 5:65-69, 73-75 below, along with some commentary (with my added comments always [bracketed] ): Some potential definitions to keep in mind: "NATURAL" = That which was originally planted and ordained by the Lord (versus "Wild," "Bitter," "Bad," “Unnatural,” or "Evil," which oppose the Lord) "NATURAL BRANCHES" = those essential keys, covenants, ordinances, & blessings, which the Lord PRESERVES "TREE" = The vehicle for gathering and blessing the Lord's children through the Gospel "FRUIT" = The lives of the members or disciples "ROOT" = The atoning sacrifice of Christ "TOP" = Christ as the Head of the Tree or Church Jacob 5:65-69: * [The Lord of the vineyard cautions his servants to] "clear away the branches [polygamy] which bring forth BITTER FRUIT," while being careful to "not clear away the BAD (polygamy) thereof all at once, lest [they completely] lose the trees [of life] of my vineyard" * " .... wherefore ye shall clear away the bad (polygamy) according AS the GOOD shall GROW.... until the good [keys, etc., plus monogamy] shall OVERCOME the bad..." * " .... And thus will I sweep away the BAD out of my VINEYARD, & the BRANCHES of the NATURAL TREE [priesthood keys, covenants, ordinances, temple blessings, etc.] will I graft in AGAIN unto the NATURAL tree [monogamy] .... " * " .... & thus will I bring them [NATURAL BRANCHES and TREE or keys, etc. plus monogamy] TOGETHER AGAIN, that they shall bring forth the NATURAL FRUIT, & they [natural trees, branches, and fruit] shall be one .... & the bad [polygamy] shall be cast away, yea, even out of all the land of my vineyard...." (Jacob 5:65-69) Jacob 5:73-75: * "And there began to be the NATURAL FRUIT again in the vineyard; & the NATURAL BRANCHES began to grow & thrive exceedingly; & the WILD branches [polygamy] began to be plucked off & to be cast away; and they did keep the ROOT & the TOP thereof" [perhaps the atoning sacrifice of the Lord as the "ROOT" & the Lord's place at the head of His church as "the TOP"] * " .... And thus they labored .... even until the BAD [polygamy] had been cast away out of the vineyard, and the Lord had PRESERVED unto himself that the trees had become again the natural fruit [of the NATURAL roots, tree, and branches]; and they became like unto ONE BODY; and the FRUITS were EQUAL [perhaps in the way men and women in the Lord's church should always be seen as equally valued in the eyes of their Heavenly Father--which polygamy corrupts?]; & the Lord of the vineyard had PRESERVED unto himself the NATRUAL FRUIT [that was nurtured from the natural ROOTS (of the atonement), natural BRANCHES (of keys, covenants, ordinances), and natural TREES (of monogamy)], which was most precious unto him from the beginning ...." * " .... And ... the Lord of the vineyard saw that his fruit was good, and that his vineyard was no more corrupt .... and the bad [polygamy] is cast away [and he said to his servants:] .... behold ye shall have joy with me because of the fruit of my vineyard." (Jacob 5:73-75) Bottom line: * We can recognize that polygamy was indeed "bad" and a blight (temporary "wild branches") upon the Lord's restored church--that had to be "plucked out" to preserve the olive tree and allow the good fruit to be nourished and flourish, * That Joseph Smith indeed condemned and shunned the abomination and practice of polygamy--which was, as he and the scriptures always clearly and unequivocally exclaimed, a corruption and an abomination (or blight) that especially undervalued, and often subjected, pierced, and shot daggers into the tender hearts of the Lord's daughters, * But that, DESPITE THAT (temporary) CORRUPTION, the still-preserved and living roots (atonement of Savior) & "natural branches" of the olive tree (such as priesthood keys, covenants, ordinances, & temple blessings) REMAIN an integral part of the Lord's living church today . . . with the Savior Himself at the head (TOP) of that church . . . (Just one added note: I notice that Zenos also uses the word "bad" in ONE other verse (5:35). . . I personally think the Parable at this point describes the Nephite episodes of polygamy ... since that "bad fruit" arises in "the nethermost parts of the vineyard" in "a good spot of ground" that was "choice unto me above all other parts of the land of my vineyard," a common scriptural phrase for America. ) (Sorry how LONG this comment has been . . . but I have something more to add . . . which I'll include as a REPLY to myself below :--D
As I said above, we LDS face the MOST CRITICAL DECISION JUNCTION since the death of the Lord’s founding prophet, Joseph Smith. Why? Because BOTH items below are clearly true: TRUTH # 1 Joseph Smith ALWAYS condemned and NEVER preached or practiced ANY form of polygamy by any name (celestial or plural marriage or spiritual wifery, etc.) and was ALWAYS faithful to his ONE wife, Emma. TRUTH # 2 THEREFORE, though tough to hear--Brigham Young introduced the abominations of polygamy (Jacob 2-3) into the church, while FALSELY PINNING that decision upon Joseph Smith. So what’s next for LDS members? We must also accept: TRUTH # 3 That corruption introduced through polygamy DID NOT destroy or cancel these LIFEBLOOD elements of the Lord's true and living restored church, which REMAIN with us TODAY: * the PRIESTHOOD KEYS * the continuing presence & efficacy of COVENANTS (including Abrahamic, Sacramental, Temple, & Book of Mormon (see DC 84) * the continued efficacy of TEMPLE WORK and ORDINANCES, which build upon those KEYS and COVENANTS, and which continue to make possible the work of salvation on BOTH SIDES of the veil. * the Savior's atoning sacrifice--as the life-giving ROOT of His restored church today * the Savior Himself--as the HEAD of his living and restored church today I think the Lord gave us the Parable of the Olive Trees to help us accept those 3 truths above. In the parable: * He warns us how the polygamy Jacob condemned in his day would arrive in OUR DAY and * He shows us how the Lord would preserve the good and "NATURAL BRANCHES" of the Olive Tree (the LIFEBLOOD found in KEYS, COVENANTS, and TEMPLE ORDINANCES) even after the CORRUTPION from the WILD and BAD branches that infested the VINEYARD during polygamy . . . More on that parable's message to us today--as I REPLY to myself below) In the meantime, this bit of advice seems relevant: * DON'T FEAR the TRUTH * CELEBRATE the FACT that the Lord's Founding Prophet, Joseph, always spoke the truth when he said he never practiced polygamy and was always faithful to his one wife, Emma (C'mon--doesn't that just make you take a big breath of relief and shout: "Halleluiah Joseph!") * TRUST that the Lord preserved the foundations of his church (the keys, covenants and ordinances) --even if Brigham Young temporarily introduced polygamy and its inevitable corruptions into the Lord's vineyard. (I'll Reply once more to myself to show some interesting parallels between Jacob's sermon in Jacob 2-3 and the parable of Zenos in Jacob 5. Clearly, Jacob 5 is simply a CONTINUATION of Jacob's sermon in Jacob 2-3.)
As I said above, we LDS face the MOST CRITICAL DECISION JUNCTION since the death of the Lord’s founding prophet, Joseph Smith. Why? Because BOTH items below are clearly true: TRUTH # 1 Joseph Smith ALWAYS condemned and NEVER preached or practiced ANY form of polygamy by any name (celestial or plural marriage or spiritual wifery, etc.) and was ALWAYS faithful to his ONE wife, Emma. TRUTH # 2 THEREFORE, though tough to hear--all evidence indicates BY introduced polygamy into the church, while FALSELY PINNING that decision upon Joseph Smith. So what’s next for LDS members? We must also accept: TRUTH # 3 That corruption introduced through polygamy DID NOT destroy or cancel these LIFEBLOOD elements of the Lord's true and living restored church, which REMAIN with us TODAY: * the PRIESTHOOD KEYS * the continuing presence & efficacy of COVENANTS (including Abrahamic, Sacramental, Temple, & Book of Mormon (see DC 84) * the continued efficacy of TEMPLE WORK and ORDINANCES, which build upon those KEYS and COVENANTS, and which continue to make possible the work of salvation on BOTH SIDES of the veil. * the Savior's atoning sacrifice--as the life-giving ROOT of His restored church today * the Savior Himself--as the HEAD of his living and restored church today I think the Lord gave us the Parable of the Olive Trees to help us accept those 3 truths above. In the parable: * He warns us how the polygamy Jacob condemned in his day would arrive in OUR DAY and * He shows us how the Lord would preserve the good and "NATURAL BRANCHES" of the Olive Tree (the LIFEBLOOD found in KEYS, COVENANTS, and TEMPLE ORDINANCES) even after the CORRUTPION from the WILD and BAD branches that infested the VINEYARD during polygamy . . . ) In the meantime, this bit of advice seems relevant: * DON'T FEAR the TRUTH * CELEBRATE the FACT that the Lord's Founding Prophet, Joseph, always spoke the truth when he said he never practiced polygamy and was always faithful to his one wife, Emma (C'mon--doesn't that just make you take a big breath of relief and shout: "Halleluiah Joseph!") * TRUST that the Lord preserved the foundations of his church (the keys, covenants and ordinances) --even if Brigham Young temporarily introduced polygamy and its inevitable corruptions into the Lord's vineyard. Clearly, Jacob 5 is simply a CONTINUATION of Jacob's sermon in Jacob 2-3--and condemns polygamy both in OUR DISPENSATION as well as Jacob's.) Notice how many ways the Parable of Zenos (in Jacob 5) expands upon the principles taught in Jacob 2-3, which supports finding a condemnation of polygamy as a theme within that parable: I. Pride preceded the sins condemned in both Jacob's sermon and Zenos' parable: * Jacob's condemnation of the neglect of the poor as well as the abomination and whoredoms of polygamy that "cropped up" among the Nephites is preceded, appropriately, by his condemnation of the "pride" of his people); * And likewise, we learn from Zenos' parable that the primary cause that "corrupted [the Lord's] vineyard" [also leading perhaps to the greater abominations of adultery and fornication--perhaps practiced under the name of polygamy] was "the LOFTINESS [within] thy vineyard" (verses 47 and 48). * Certainly, the corruption that provokes "taking many wives and concubines" follows from the prideful attitude that "I am above those silly, naive constrictions of monogamy. I should be able to indulge myself and my carnal desires as often as I please. And all those women should just submit to my superior power over them." II. Both cases follow from a desire to protect and preserve the "tender hearts" of the wives and daughters: * Perhaps Jacob includes Zenos' parable to emphasize how the regular "cropping up" of the abomination of polygamy so consistently blights healthy family relationships and causes "the sorrow .... and mourning of the daughters of my people .... in all the lands of my people [or ... in all parts of my vineyard] because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands" (Jacob 2:31). * And therefore, not surprisingly, a primary concern in both Jacob's sermon and Zenos' parable (verses 4 and 8) is protecting and preserving the "TENDER HEARTS" of the wives and daughters (Zenos talks about his concern for the "YOUNG and TENDER branches" of the olive trees) amidst that regular corruption of polygamy. III. Polygamy may be seen to “curse” the land (or vineyard) in both Jacob’s sermon and Zenos’ parable * Jacob, Chapter 5 can be seen to support Jacob's desire for his people to "build a sure foundation" through practicing God's universal law of monogamous marriage and thereby healthy family relationships. * And perhaps the primary "corruptor" of that "sure foundation" is polygamy that so regularly infests and rots the roots and branches of the olive tree--as they are re-planted throughout the Lord's vineyard) and frustrates the Lord's desire to "raise up a righteous branch [of that olive tree] from the fruit of the loins of Joseph." * Therefore, the parable of Zenos may naturally follow from Jacob's severe "overanxiety" and warning "against fornication and lasciviousness, and every kind of sin, telling them the awful consequences of them," including "cursing of the land [or vineyard]," which cursing serves as the primary motif of Jacob, Chapter 5.
This video was so perfect!! Absolutely amazing!! Great job Michelle and Steve👌. I love that he was honest about his thoughts and behavior pertaining to doctrine of the devil we call divine. I think when the truth finally comes forward from the higher ups when that happens it'll destroy the testimony of so many men who believe heaven is nothing but $ex. Amazing how limited these polygamist are toward God. How they forget his divinity and power being the creator of mankind. Polygamy puts man over God to rule over him. Amazing how members can't see that and how indoctrination can cloud the mind to truth. It allows the devil to take over. One thing I didn't agree with was the part where he said "pride because we know the real truth." Maybe some people are like that but it has left me more confused than prideful. Knowing the real truth that early church created multiple ped0philes only grossed me out not make me feel like I knew something special. I honestly don't feel like many are prideful knowing the real truth. I believe it causes more pondering, anger and creates more confusion while the feeling of gratitude becomes overwhelming that we get to know God better if that makes sense. However.... I agree that pride is a HUGE problem in the church just not as much with us monogamy affirmers but maybe that's just how I see it. Great discussion!!
Any woman who has had to deal with pornography or adultery knows when her husband has stepped out if she has any discernment whatsoever. It wouldnt shock me to find out Joseph participating in vicarious sealings was misconstrued and used as the foundation for it. It is absolutely a damaging act.
If we cannot trust prophets and apostles, we cannot trust anything they say. What other teachings and doctrines are we going to find out are false in this life or the afterlife?
Other than the singular example of D&C section 132, where do you see God savoring men having many wives as concubines? The Book of Mormon says God “suffers” it, and in fact that God will not suffer the cries of the fair daughters because of this abomination, rather they will be cursed to destruction. We were threatened with destruction (see Wilford Woodruff’s manifesto), the polygamous groups all over the world are constantly in a chaotic fight for survival. Please, for a moment, set aside our traditions and open your heart and mind to another way of seeing this.
Nephi slaying Laban, Abraham and Issac, Killing in war, Adam and Eve taking the fruit, Jesus hanging out with sinners, Joseph destroying the printing press. And yes, polygamy. Plenty of grey area out there I think
@Coastal1931 I dont think any of those are miiddle ground. But I can see how they would confuse the learner. Nephi slaying Laban was a just act. The man had stolen from his family and tried to kill him and his brothers. After his acts, he should have escaped to a city of refuge, but he didn't, because he thought he was too powerful for anyone to give him justice. Killing in war that God commands is not middle ground. How could killing ever be middle ground? It is as one sided as you can get! Polygamy was always wrong and Joseph didn't do it! No grey area! No middle ground. God does not change.
@ The scriptures are full of contradictions. Nephi sleying Laban was murder by any earthly law. As far as Jiseph practicing polygamy, thats settled history. Waste your life on conspiracy theories if you like.
@@joyfulsuretyNephi murdered Laban. In fact, let's show you how ridiculous this story is. Laban was a leader supposedly, charged also with keeping a sacred text, possibly handed down from multiple generations. We only see Nephi's telling of said story, but no one else's. If you had a sacred artifact, that you were charfed to keep by your religious elders, and some random family demanded to take them, what would you say? If they came back with money, isn't that bribery? Potentially against the law and could be uses as evidence as such, thus the seizure of property? But there is more. After this murder, Nephi breaks two more commandments. Bearing of false witness, and stealing. And all this sin to do something they had an easy alternative to accomplishing. They did not need those plates. They could have asked to copy them down, or just as easily, God could have commanded Laban to give the plates to them, but He did not. This story does nothing but prove that the BOM is not a loving God's scripture.
@@joyfulsurety "The man had stolen from his family and tried to kill him and his brothers" The saints were facing genocide and Zion was threatened with extinction or at least so insignificant as to hinder a speedy growth in the church as to take the gospel to the four quarters of the earth. A just act. Would've, could've and Na ah just doesn't cut it. What next, are you going to start suggesting what the Lord, Joseph, Brigham and every prophet after should have done?? Of course you are and already have. We'll just be happy accepting the way it actually was. That might be the wisest thing to do. "Polygamy was always wrong and Joseph didn't do it! " You're wrong and Joseph never physically practiced it but he indeed set up the spiritual end of things to reinstate it as he, nor the Lord were ignorant as what was to come. When Smith was finally murdered, it was go time! The requirement of physically raising up seed unto the house of God via plural marriages. NO MIDDLE GROUND 😇
Oh Steve, my dear brother… When you shared the quote from Joseph after returning home from the grove but replacing “Presbyterianism” with “polygamy”, you currently have NO IDEA how apt that word swap was. But you will one day at this rate ;). Keep studying my friend. The Truth of what Joseph intended to communicate to us regarding that beautiful morning is right there in broad daylight for us to read. Always has been. He just had to conceal it to a degree so the wicked would “comprehend it not” so they couldn’t corrupt that too, but Light is on the up and up once again and it’s there for those with the eyes to see. In my opinion, no greater PROOF Joseph was faithful to Emma exists or even can exist outside of that last, First Vision account he penned at the end of his life he knew would soon come.
No matter if he did or didn’t practice polygamy….the church has in the past and present lied about it and much more. You have to become a nuanced member to stay a member if today’s church.
What I don't understand and I am really, truly trying to, if Joseph Smith did not commit polygamy, then why do you believe in and support current church leaders who say that he did? Someone is not telling the truth. Leaders of the church have "tricked" women into adultery, unless you also believe that these women will not be held responsible for their actions, and they still are revered as men of God. I cannot understand how people who strongly believe that JS was not a polygamist can still support the prophet. What about the new cartoon that was JUST put out explaining it?
These are valid questions that I have been asked, and responded to repeatedly. I don't have time to again here, but in short, the church is FAR more than our complicated history with uncomfortable topics like polygamy and racism. I do not believe that prophets are infallible any more than I believe local leaders are. But the fact that leaders have erred does not mean I need to leave the church that I love and that God has repeatedly led me to stay in. I am able to separate baby and bath water. I don't feel obligated to leave the church because of things I disagree with, any more than I feel obligated to leave my country because of things I disagree with. The foundations of both are very, very good, and I have hope for the future and strong faith that the Good continues to outweigh the bad.
When you learn to understand that the Lord nor Joseph Smith were ignorant to the fate of early Saints future that was staring them in the eyes. You will then see the justifications of Smith setting up the practice to commence in the near future. The practice was reintroduced to the Lord's restored church because failure including genocide was coming down the pike. Joseph set up the spiritual part(s) of it even though he himself had not PHYSICALLY practiced it. His murder kicked it all off and the next in line commenced raising up seed as fast as possible in the church to ensure the survival and growth of Zion. Nobody was tricked, no cartoon nor were all the Saint commanded to partake. Only those who would and could handle it righteously were commanded by to. What I mean by that is... poor men were never expected to have more than one wife. Lustful men taking on wives for the wrong reasons either.
@@MichelleBStone The crazy thing is you thinking this is an answer or a valid response to a valid question. All saying that God has told you to stay and that the foundation is beautiful and we shouldn't toss everything out because of men's and leaders mistakes does is allow people to behave like protestants and think, gee I can pick and choose whatever I want to and use my interpretation of scripture and history as the backing of my new beliefs and build a network of people who agree with me that xyz are bad. The problem is you did dump the baby with the bath water and you just can't admit that you did. You're in denial. And you're creating an environment for more people to be in denial. This is the same kind of movement of trans people who deny their own gender.
@@MichelleBStone That is not an answer. All you said is you are picking and choosing what to believe or not, which is ultimately what led people to protestantism and yes throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Please look up the sourcing for that. It is not a good claim. If you want to be taken seriously in these discussions, you need to get up to speed on the work that has been done. Throwing out claims like this does not help your credibility. Here, I'll help you out with this one. It comes from a letter W.W. Phelps wrote to Brigham Young in 1861, claiming to write word for word a revelation Joseph Smith supposedly had 30 years earlier. There is no earlier source (which Phelps makes clear in this letter) and there is no substantiation for the claim. Joseph never taught it, and he certainly never practiced it. Like so many of these completely unsupported decades late claims, this fits in perfectly in frontier Utah, where Phelps may have wanted to take a native woman, but it has no support whatsoever earlier than that, and there is certainly nothing that would show that Joseph said anything of the kind.
@MichelleBStone No I'm just reading correctly. If you see my comment. I included myself. Which means that the people who disagree (me) are saying the same things. Which means those who agree with you have not and likely will not be able to rebut anything that people who disagree with you are saying. They just echo what they have been saying over and over again never answering or addressing the main issues.
The church of Scientology boasts that they are not a “no change” group. I think the LDS church should be okay with change also. If we are to be progressing, then it would follow that we will make changes.
Ugh... Joseph Smith was not a polygamist but righteous polygamy has been true!! Try and keep it together, ya all. 1:48 Michelle... the church HAS given up the practice of polygamy. Where have you been all this time??
There really isn't one. What they are implying is that only people who would be interested in porn would be the kind to engage in polygamy. It's a very shallow inaccurate thought that lumps righteous plural marriage in with the wrong kind of polygamy which no man or woman should ever accept. They just don't get it because there is no light in them regarding this issue therefore are in a state of confusion. The Lord's house is not one of confusion.
Steve Reed discusses this in his blog post about Jacob 2:30 and made some excellent points. I do see a connection between this and a "desire" for "many wives and concubines." Both are based in, and feed, man's selfishness and lust. Both allow, and even encourage imagination about a large variety of women to be at our beck and call. In that way both are pretty awful. C.S. Lewis talking about a "virtual harem," in connection to masturbation wrote, "For the harem is always accessible, always subservient, calls for no sacrifices or adjustments, and can be endowed with erotic and psychological attractions which no real woman can rival. Among those shadowy brides he is always adored, always the perfect lover: no demand is made on his unselfishness, no mortification ever imposed on his vanity. In the end, they become merely the medium through which he increasingly adores himself." The way Brigham Young and subsequent polygamists taught/teach polygamy glorifies the man by reducing the women. Both porn and 132 turn women into objects to serve the purposes and desires of men. The "keep sweet" approach is designed to make men not have to "deal" with women's experiences, wants, desires, pain, etc. I think there is a very distinct connection.
@MichelleBStone There are enough quotes to counter what you are saying. You will come upon them if you keep researching. Yes, it's already known that sometimes people behave poorly and that not every quote is the greatest. If Brigham's understanding was not perfect at first there's good evidence that it grew over time. Many quotes in the Journal of Discourses talk very strongly about how polygamy is *not* for satisfying worldly lusts.
@@MichelleBStone couldn’t you equally put this sort of argument towards monogamy? I would argue that porn afflicts the monogamist equally, if not more, than the polygamist. I feel this is a stretch IMO.
I agree. Joseph Smith III said the same thing. Not as any sort of admission that his father was a polygamist, but to make the same point we are making -- even if Joseph had done it (which the evidence shows more and more that he didn't) it would still have been an abomination.
@ This understanding was so liberating! The hypothetical implications of Joseph practicing or teaching polygamy would be repentance. This is the same repentance we must all engage in.
Polygamy is nothing compared to the belief that Jesus Christ was created in heaven by a mother and father god, that he is the biological son of a god, that He is just a creature, according to Mormonism. Jesus is not a creature, He is God, He is our creator, He cannot create Himself. John 1:1 In the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word is God. The Word is Jesus. This is the worst abomination of Mormonism that Jesus is a creature like us, who exulted himself to a god. Jesus is infinite not finite, we are finite, we are changeable God is not. Mormonism has the wrong Jesus, unbiblical.
@@hollayevladimiroff131 There is no biblical gospel or teaching that Jesus was not created by His heavenly Father or Mother. You need to learn your Bible better. "In the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word is God." Right, so in the beginning was Jesus Christ and he was with His Father and they are both Gods...... GOD. Jesus Himself has told YOU that His Father has sent Him to create the earth, teach the prophets and redeem all mankind. Wake up Vlad.
@@godsoffspring4195 That opposes the King Follett Sermon so tell us how to rectify that. Additionally that clashes with the 3 Heavens in which Celestal Kingdoms create new worlds. Where are those Saints going? In classical non-Mormon teachings they go back to God or choose not to(Heaven/Hell). So which is it one place or three?
@@whatsup3270 How about you rectify your ridiculous question by coughing up the opposing parts that bother you that apparently in the KF sermon. Try that. One heaven, 3 levels of glory. Come back when you get that right too. K?? Going back to God involves all three glories. Not achieving any of the three, you go the other way. So... it's only two directions. By the way who told you that any of the two directions are necessarily and simply 'places". More like eternal states of mind and capabilities. Try that. :>)
I had the same happy emotional reaction that he expressed at 54:55 of this video when I believed Whitney Horning's Remnant Church claims that Joseph never authored 132. And that polygamy was a sin conceived by what became the Utah Saints. Unfortunately, I discovered on own after reading the Nauvoo Expositor affidavits (and numerous souces since) that Whitney Horning and the Remnant Church she embraces is 100% dilusional in denying Joseph's authorship of 132. Michelle, YOU ARE DESTROYING 80 % OF YOUR EFFECTIVENESS IN COMBATTING THE EVILS OF POLYGAMY BY EMBRACING THE REMNANT CHURCH DILUSIONS Pedestalizing Joseph and scapegoating his mistakes on to others will continue to destroy your message. Please, please stop. At least, take a neutral stance on whether Joseph authored 132.
For me learning that Joseph didn't originate, polygamy came along after learning that polygamy was not of God. I agree with you that it is a separate issue. I strongly disagree with you that the novel Expositor is good. Evidence that polygamy originated with Joseph Smith. I will be providing further evidence of that in upcoming episodes. I hope you will be able to open your mind to further evidence.
@@MichelleBStone Thanks for the censor of almost all my comments. I know they are very hard to deal with but I thought open mindedness was welcome on this channel. Silly me?? :>)
@@MichelleBStone Thankyou for responding, dear sister. Seems most have been hidden from sight by somebody. I know if people complain to YT claiming Disinformation and other issues, they will automatically shadow ban rather than make judgement on millions of claims. Seeing how you do see this one, Maybe I'll repost a comment here that I made to you on the main board. What would have to say regarding proper plural families vs unrighteous polygamy if successful knowledge of artificial insemination or IVF was given to Abraham for the surrogacy of a son by Hagar, for example? What then?? There goes your claims against proper plurality for procreation of God's children and improper polygamy and trying to mix the two together? Righteous polygamy wasn't, isn't nor will never be about the lust for sex therefore no whoredoms committed. What say ye?? :>)
@@godsoffspring4195 I don't think anybody is complaining to youtube. Even if somebody were, that is a big process. For some reason youtube seems to delete comments, especially ones with links to other sites. I don't know why it happens, and it is extremely frustrating. As to your question, I don't understand your point. I don't believe there is such thing as "proper plural families" or "righteous polygamy." God repeatedly calls polygamy an abomination, and God does not command or authorize abomination. As mortals we all do the best we can. All of us fall short, and we all have need to repent. The biggest problem is when we call good evil and evil good and don't see our error and thus fail to repent. Beyond that, your comment doesn't make sense to me. If Sarai had had any other means of gaining a child, she would not have asked Abram to use her slave girl Hagar as a surrogate. If Sarai could herself have been impregnated by IVF, I think they would definitely have done that. If that didn't work, and she could have hired a woman (who she did not own) who wanted to be a surrogate to be impregnated through artificial insemination, they would have probably done that. Neither of those would have had anything to do with polygamy, and Abram wouldn't have needed to have sex with Hagar - and thus count her as a concubine. So I honestly do fail to see your point.
Sadly, it is not an uncommon problem. As humans, we tend to be pretty good at finding ways to justify ourselves. Belief in eternal polygamy provides otherwise good men a perfect way to justify entertaining feelings for more than one woman. Some men may think, "Maybe she'll be my wife in the next life," which can lead to imagining things that would otherwise seem inappropriate. That is just one of many examples. There have been numerous break-off sects that practice various forms of "polygamy," or, what was once called spiritual wifery. I think it is an eternal problem. Steve is not alone in this. I am thankful that he is honest, humble, and courageous enough to be willing to talk about it.
No, it is not common but like in all religions there are always those who take things to the extreme or use anything they can to justify their behavior. Members know polygamy and adultery can get you excommunicated.
@@MichelleBStone I’ve mentioned before that my father in law was married and sealed to wife #2 after wife #1 passed. He married wife #2 so quickly I wonder if he had her in mind while my wife’s mother was alive. It’s an interesting faith you have. It has so many nuances that differ from my Catholic upbringing, polygamy being one of them.
@ I’ve said this before Michelle, I don’t think your theology supports a concept of zero polygamy in your highest level of heaven. As long as you have the concept of eternal families along with earthly death and remarriage (and sealing) I don’t see a way out of it. I don’t see your theology changing to forbid men from double sealings. Maybe you think differently.
@@lynnsmith9526 There is no question among serious, legitimate historians that Joseph Smith originated polygamy in Mormonism. If Brigham Young had never existed, that would not alter the facts one whit. Young was merely one of Smith's close, loyal followers who accepted and practiced polygamy along with about 130 other church members between 1841 and 1844.
"Repenting of Polygamy"??? Why do we need to be repenting for polygamy when there is no polygamy going on in this church? Do children need to repent for the sins of their mother and fathers?? Well here's some good news for you. The church has condemned the practice since the late 1800's.
Really, then why to the top two leaders in the LDS church openly discuss gloriously living with two wives in eternity. I don’t think either of these men were around in the 1800s. I see, we no longer saddle women with this abomination in their mortal lives, they can die only to find out later that without their permission their husband has created an eternal threesome for her to be a part of.
@@marksnodgrass8384 That is not practicing polygamy and according to the maker of this video and yourself, you have nothing to worry about if there is no plural marriage in the afterlife. You are simply barking at the moon. :>)
We still teach that is it a legitimately righteous practice, justify those that did it and teach God will command it. If a man stopped cheating on his wife because he was compelled to, and justified his actions and said that God commanded him to do it and taught that God will sometimes command it, does that sound like repentance?
It is more about repenting for believing a false idea of the character and nature of God. Having believed that God would at times command or authorize polygamy is a the heart of what many feel the weight of. Beyond that, many also feel the weight of having believed what D&C 122 calls "the testimonies of traitors" about Joseph Smith.
@@stevereedatx Being married to multiple wives is not cheating on your wife or wives. Bad comparison, M'man. It is a righteous practice when or if the Lord says ... "OTHERWISE"
No. Some people are traumatized by the lack of faith. You on the other hand are a stray dog in these discussions. Maybe take up needlepoint or something more useful to you, Richard. Go skiing or something. :>)
We don't focus on Grace alone, Faith alone, Word alone in this faith. It's a shame and a sin. We can be a tight knit community and it feels impossible to break free from the church and still live in God's love. So, yes, it's PTSD. Have compassion.
@ about 1 hour mark. Pride, guaranteed eternal exaltation, in polygamy goes like this: We are the most righteous generation since sliced bread! Our children are the most righteous spirits ever. Our sexual relationship and parenting skills produce "righteous seed unto God!" As IF, those kids have no AGENCY. How? (And maybe they do loose agency being trained from birth to believe polygamy is superior. Again, an argument not to teach this to kids!) They MUST all be righteous. Seed didn't come to Adam and Eve until AFTER the gospel was preached to them. It is through the gospel of Jesus Christ that we are born again and become children of God, through our choice to be baptized. "Seed unto God" is not and has never been through babymaking! It is only through personal conversion to Jesus Christ.
Steve and Michelle, I can’t tell you how nourishing this presentation/conversation was to my soul-thank you! God is so good to freely forgive us when we are willing to turn away from sin, and I am overwhelmed with how much power each person’s turning brings to the cause of truth. This reminds me of the equally wonderful episode with Gary Arnell. These good men give me hope for the wonderful brethren at all levels of church leadership. Learning, changing, choosing love of God and our fellow man above all-so beautiful.
@@gwendolynwyne ❤️❤️❤️
@@MichelleBStone So Michelle I loved this it reminds me of myself 20 years ago. I found in Jacob Ch 1 v 15 If we Disire Poly... We Have Hard Hearts It says the people of Nephi, began to grow hard in their hearts,Began wicked practices,like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son. Just thougnt I would pass this on to you. Thanks for helping me come to the TRUTH.
I watched it a second time from a psychoanalytic perspective. He’s not believable. Too many inconveniences and cries at the wrong time. The emotional ploy is to cover more nefarious deeds. I don’t buy it. Crocodile tears and tone and timber problems. Also. Facial expressions are odd to the statements he makes. Then he seems to manipulate Michelle’s emotional connection almost like a car sales guy. Sorry. He’s lying.
Just wanted to share an experience I had recently. I was completely overwhelmed at Christmastime to the point that I kneeled in prayer to ask the Lord’s help. And he answered so quickly by saying, “I came into the world to lift you from the burdens of this life”. And I felt completely humbled in creating unnecessary stress to celebrate His birth. I thought of this story when you were talking about getting ready for church on Sunday, Michelle.
That is beautiful. Thank you for sharing.
Steve, thank you for being brave enough to share this perspective. Most thinking women realize that this is what polygamy does to men--it gives permission to do (or just imagine) what the natural man (an enemy to God) wants. Your story is so important for church leaders to recognize. They seem oblivious to this damage to the spiritual life of men. That's wonderful that this struggle has all turned out well for you. Something unrelated: what was Brian Hales doing at a faith crisis meeting? Did he think sharing his ideas and books about Jospeh being a polygamist married to young girls and married women mostly behind Emma's back would help anyone's faith?
He was there to take up a collection 😂
@@kathybence it's not about helping people's faith. It's about being transparent on what is true and what actually happened. The worst thing one can do is hide what happen, even if it's uncomfortable information. That is why I see this whole polygamy denial movement so disturbing and sick to peoples faith in the long run. Yeah it can make someone feel good that Joseph didn't practice polygamy. But when the truth is hidden, when they finally realize what he really did, who will lose their faith then?
When you realize he didn't, will you have a faith crisis?
@@hopeforpeace1 If Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy, that would suggest temples are a sham. Prophets don't exist anymore since Brigham onward are apostate conspirators. Families can't be together forever since many families were polygamous in the Church and in Biblical History. I can't trust anything Joseph said about the Church being spread all across the Earth. It is not Joseph Smith not practicing polygamy that would shatter my faith in the restored gospel, it would be the conspiracy that surrounded it including Joseph's lies about the last dispensation and setting up Christs restored Church. I don't know why anyone who believes as Michelle could twist around those facts and stay in an apostate Church.
@ If Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy, that would suggest temples are a sham. Prophets don't exist anymore since Brigham onward are apostate conspirators. Families can't be together forever since many families were polygamous in the Church and in Biblical History. I can't trust anything Joseph said about the Church being spread all across the Earth. It is not Joseph Smith not practicing polygamy that would shatter my faith in the restored gospel, it would be the conspiracy that surrounded it including Joseph's lies about the last dispensation and setting up Christs restored Church.
What a wonderful episode! So appreciate seeing Steve's perspective and his humility which led to his finding truth and change of heart!
O Lord, remove our blindness, forgive our sins and weaknesses, give to us a new heart that we may become children of the Most High God. We acknowledge our unworthiness. We are descended from rebellious and wayward ancestors and know that without your mercy we will remain in an awful state, unprepared for the return of our Lord in glory. The scriptures foretell of a latter-day recovery of your people, and of natural fruit returning to your vineyard. We seek to be part of that so you may value us as yours and preserve us against the coming season of harvest.
That's beautiful ❤️😇🙏
@StompMom5 Those aren't my words, but rather from the Boise 2017 Prayer for Covenant. As I have accepted and try and abide that covenant each day, in a real sense, I guess you could say they are mine too. God bless you!
@@petertaylorpedro 😇🙏 Still beautiful. Thank you for sharing
Fantastic episode. So much truth in it. Thank you!
This was so timely for me. An answer to my prayers today. God will not deviate from his sacred commandment to cleave unto your husband or wife and none else. He never has and he never will. The church as a whole has not been able to abandon polygamy because they are really doubling down on the idea that it is actually authorized at times. I struggle with so many false teachings that have been taught and are being taught which have no scriptural backing. This video is healing.
“God” is quite literally the living witness that defies and condemns polygamy by Gods very existence. Mankind was made male and female (one of each) in the literal image of God. I’m glad to hear this video was healing for you. I’m unsurprised to hear that because Christ’s Voice was found in it and Christ is the Master Healer.
“Whether by my own Voice of the voice of my servants, it is the same” indeed.
Humility is a pre-requisite to relationship with Christ.
Yes, pride goes with polygamy in other ways, too. I have dozens of ancestors who "were righteous enough to be asked to live that principle", only a small percentage of lds actually did- at least this was the narrative i was taught. So we had a lot of pride in "our" adulterous ancestors.... because they were "righteous." Talk about calling good evil and evil good!!!!
This is really beautiful and timely for me. Thank you, Steve, for your vulnerability and inspiration in sharing your perspective and experience. Lots of emotion in this one for me... part of me wants to continue feeling justified in the rut I’ve been in where I feel like I can’t trust or acknowledge the good that there is in the church because there has been this great wrong, and there continue to be wrongs. It seems easier to surrender to a false belief system or just pretend not to care about what’s actually true than to do the difficult work of sorting out for myself what is true and walking this nuanced line of being involved in the church and supporting all that’s good and right while not subscribing to all of it.
But I feel to say Hallelujah because I know that through Jesus Christ all things are possible and all truth will be revealed in time!
Just as the Lord can teach you the truth of all things regarding this issue, he can show you the truth of what he wants you to specifically do with it. I wanted to fight. I wanted to be a contrarian voice and instead he asked me to be a church affirming voice. I’m certain you will receive answers.
Wow, so much gold in this episode. I had to pause different times to take notes. Steve, thank you so much for sharing your experiences and some of the wisdom you've gained through your journey. Michelle, thank you! I especially found helpful the discussion on how to know if your experience or knowledge is from God. You are both awesome.
The idea that Joseph was a polygamist did not bother my testimony. Finding out he was Not a polygamist did not hurt my testimony, but grew my testimony of the Book of Mormon and Joseph. But the Church being willing to believe the lie and teaching the lie, that helped destroy all my belief in the Church.
@@joyfulsurety that is so sad to hear, but so valid. I desperately wish the leaders of the church could hear your experience and understand how valid It is and how common it is.
I'm with you! It's the continual teaching of the lies that give the church no creditability in my opinion. But I have come to love the BOM more than any time in my life ❤️.
I agree with one caveat: God said the gospel would never be removed from the earth again. Brigham Young almost destroyed the church BUT the GOSPEL is still here. I'm a convert so my faith has never been in an organization run by the arm of flesh. My covenants are with God. The church leadership will come around. And if they don't, the sin is upon their heads for not seeking wisdom and confirmation. My deep feeling is that BYU creates a problem. It never should have been named after him.
@@reppi8742 I agree with you. I do suggest studying out the idea that the gospel will never again be taken from the Earth. I don't think there are good sources for that. The closest scripture we have is Daniel 2 verse 44, which, as an OT verse is pretty difficult to apply specifically to ourselves. There is nothing in the BoM, or D&C, or the words of Joseph Smith. The earliest claim I have been able to find is Wilford Woodruff Dec. 21, 1869, and even then it is about the keys of the kingdom, which really is about the church.
I don't think God's word or work can be destroyed, or taken from the Earth. I think everyone who is willing to repent and seek God can be answered. I agree that there is power in the church, and truth in our understanding of the gospel, and I have great hope for our church.
The indoctrination of children is too much and over the top. They are saying to children that Joseph did have a roll in the hay with Fanny and it was Joseph in the barn practicing polygamy. I’m blasphemy and perverse. Absolutely corrupt. We are OUT!!!
Listening to this is filling my soul with the spirit. It makes me want to stand up in fast and testimony meeting today and declare my witness against believing in polygamy. I desperately wish I could without shocking the whole ward family. I’ll instead keep sweet and silent for now. But some day I hope to shout hallelujah when this doctrine is forsaken.
I can certainly understand that position.
I just spoke my testimony today. I think it's important the ward knows our testimonies of Jesu, of Heavenly Father, of the Holy Ghost, of the miracles that happen in our lives, the book of Mormon and the power it contains. We can share what we learn from the BoM. By doing this every month, the members feel and know your testimony, then when it comes up about polygamy or any false doctrine, the past testimonies and relationship with us they will really listen to what we have to say, they will feel the power of truth when it will be spoken in kindness. There will be a time to do that, so we can't stay silent.
@@MommaCrissaYou are right. The more I share my testimony of the things we agree upon, the stronger our relationship and trust will be when I eventually feel prompted to bring up this subject.
I used to share my testimony often, but after learning more about this polygamy issue, among some other things, it caused me to become angry. I told myself not to share my testimony at church anymore. I'm so blessed that the Spirit is still working with me, and my heart is softening again . I wanted to share today, but I still don't know where I am. This conversation helped me. Scripture of the day, "But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint." Isaiah 40:31
Chicken
Thanks so much for this episode! I don't think we comprehend the damage. Polygamy does to men in our church. I personally had to confront a family member who was a stake president at the time he was having an emotional affair with a woman in leadership in his stake. He told me what he was doing was OK because of polygamy. Also an in law who was a bishop was excommunicated because of an affair with a widow in his ward, and his excuse was also because of polygamy. If I personally know two men that did this how many more are there?
That is so sad. Thank you for sharing. It is tragic the damage it continues to do.
@@tennisgirl57 Woah! Having an affair has nothing to do with believing polygamy was practiced by holy men and women. You are fitting a square in a circular hole with that logic. People who use the atonement as an excuse for committing sin does not mean the atonement is harmful for people. It just means people have abused and warped what it really is.
@@tennisgirl57 People excuse the atonement for letting them do whatever they want. That doesn't mean the doctrine of the atonement is damaging for men or women.
@ Apple and oranges. You really need to find a new hobby Jacob!
@@tennisgirl57 Exactly. Believing that polygamy happened and was sanction by God is the apple. Using it as an excuse to disobey God's commandment of adultery is the orange. Polygamy and the Atonement arr both tools (apples) God has used historically. That doesn't make them weapons. (Oranges)
22:58 I love that he called it a “belief crisis” and not a “faith crisis.” Our faith is in Christ alone 👏
I love how spontaneously many of us (who used to believe polygamy was a true principle and that joseph introduced it) feel the need to repent of those false beliefs when we come to know it's actually a doctrine of devils, and Joseph did not introduce it. That was my experience, after decades of believing that lie. It felt sooooo good to repent of that false belief!!! ❤❤❤ and so many others include that step in their journey to the truth about God, Joseph, and polygamy.
Definitely 😇🙏. When I took this matter to God myself and had the most amazing experience I'll never forget. One thing I'll also never forget is the chastisement I also received. I had never gotten to know God because I was just going along with the church and leaders and that's not who or what we worship. We worship God only and as members that's our biggest problem.
Only problem calling it doctrine of devils is that it is literally written in scripture as a ordained thing practiced by many prophets and never rebuked by God when practiced correctly.
@@jacobsamuelson3181where is it written as ordained?
Hooray Steve. Way to have courage and come out like this.
@@PeterBrownscouts I agree! ❤️
Haha! Coming out party! Thanks Peter!
I do want to point out that finding a path of light outside of the church can be incredibly difficult because there really is nothing "ready made" to fall into. The pitfalls of being outside the Church are probably greater than staying in the Church. I don't think that's because of keys but because of resources. If you're going to step away, you have to be a builder of Zion. Being a keyboard critic is really tempting and easy to fall into. I've been in that rut myself.
There is good fruit to be found outside the Church but you've got to be led to it by the Lord. That's the only answer I've found. It's not easily accessible in Facebook groups or forums. There's lots of darkness there, largely because of the blowback effect. But light can be found . . . Or better yet . . . Made.
Love this. Profound insights here.
Yep! No alternative that brings the same utilitarian benefits as the Church.
I think it is so important for each of us to seek and receive direction from the Lord. There have been two times times when I didn't see how I could stay, and didn't think I should, but I have always been strongly directed to stay, and if nothing else, I am so glad I have stayed for the sake of my children (although in my opinion there are many other benefits -- many.) I do strongly believe that staying in the church is worthwhile and important for a large variety of reasons, but I'm not going to tell anybody else what they need to do or what is going to be right for them. People have different lives, community and situations. I hope we each can follow God, wherever and however we feel directed to do so.
@@MichelleBStonethe way I figure is that if we believed that the keys were restored by angels in the form of Peter, James, and John, then it stands to reason the Lord can send them again to his prophets who were worthy. So I believe they must have cleansed the leadership at some point. I believe 100% that the current church is true. I would love to have them rename BYU and come out and clear Joseph’s name but I feel they are avoiding it to prevent a huge falling out. The church has always been about teaching basic principles to help people return to heavenly father, that’s it. We just gotta keep it simple so as many people can receive the covenants to return to Heavenly Father. But I yearn for the Millenial day and for Zion to be here now. There won’t be a church, it will just be his kingdom and Christ will lead. How glorious.
So good! One of the best messages I've heard on this whole subject
Wow the slide "The Standard Narrative Destroys Faith" ! If it didn't have Joseph's face I would think it was about Brigham Young!
Polygamy didn't grow the church or the population of Utah. The US Census' bear that out. How many millions more would have joined or remained or been born in the church if polygamy was not practiced?
I can relate completely to what Bro Baer is saying. I have had extremely significant spiritual experiences in the temple. Those experiences could not have happened if the temple wasn't what it truly is.
Bro Baer is a humble, honest, sincere man. ❤
Thank you both! I’m on my own journey like we all are but got some good things from this 🎉🎉
Steve, if you ever read this…Your experiences in the lds temples were authentic indeed, but not because of those buildings. It was YOU. YOU were the temple. You have a special heart that’s not at all common in this world, especially for a male. God bless brother
Your wise comment is just what I needed to hear. It's actually an answer to a prayer I've had in trying to reconcile the temple. Thank you
Thank you for your kind words.
Yeah that little asterisk is 100% polygamy. I heard somebody say that today in church and that’s exactly the thought I had, so I’m glad the guest brought that up.
Such a good video! Amen, amen, amen!
I've been looking for my direction with all this new knowledge. This has confirmed my decision to stay in the church.
@@lucybates8078 I am so genuinely happy to hear that ❤️
Near the end of the video. While we disagree regarding polygyny, Brother Steve gives a great message about humility. It's easy for sides to accuse the other of not being humble for this reason or that. But the ability to keep asking, "Am I wrong?" Or "what am I missing" is an essential element to humility and being able to come to the truth.
Thank you so much ❤ loved this testimony
We would all be here even if polygamy had never happened. It is sad that some people dont understand this.
Exactly! Polygamy actually greatly halted the growth of the church. How many marriages were destroyed? How many children were never born? How many people had to leave the church because of polygamy. I have male ancestors that had to leave because they could find or maintain wives because of the dirty old men.
@@StompMom5 Agreed.
Who told you that? Where's any evidence of that?? There is none. What is real is... It did happen and here we are and absolute truth. Whereas, yours is a dreamy fantasy of ice cream and rainbows.
Good thing we have prophets and the Holy Ghost to keep it all real... right?? 😇
@@godsoffspring4195 One of the main reasons given for polygamy in Utah was that there weren't enough men to go around and that is not true. Research the senses records of Utah during that time and you will find it is not true. In modern FLDS they have what are called the lost boys. Term given to the "surplus" of males left over after the old farts rob them of the young women. That was pretty much the way it was back then in the LDS church. Look up some of the ages of girls who were being married off to older men because the old man got the hots for them and traded favors with Brigham so he would "give" the girl to him. A youtuber, Gendolyn Wyne had an ancestor who was only 12. It is pretty scary to venture into the truth but eventually you will recognize it for what it was. Pure evil and the women, children and many of the men suffered because of it. If you think Joseph started it you better think again.
@@icecreamladydriver1606 No... those are just reasons people thought up to try and explain why. The proper answer is, Joseph and the Lord knew what was coming and the church was facing genocide!!
It was because of plural unions the church grew exceedingly. We have the proof that has happened. On the other hand you have ZERO evidence it would have flourished otherwise.
Smith started the spiritual end of it. His death(murder) kicked off the need for the physical part of things. You guys are simply uneducated and have not the Holy Ghost regarding this issue. Leaves in the wind......
Another very good 132 problems video! Thanks!
I love this discussion! These are beautiful faithful truths.
@MichelleBStone..
thank you for this episode. I appreciate your great work and efforts to bring this truth to light. I am a convert to the church and for all my years in the Church I have always felt strongly and believed that Polygamy was not of God. My biggest question always leads me back to trying to understand and ask: where does this leave us with the sealing power in regards to marriage in the Temple?? Especially when the sealers seal more than one wife?? How can I do temple marriage sealings for my ancestors knowing that other people can seal my direct ancestors to other wives?? Its so extremely complicated and confusing??
Excellent question. My personal feeling is that the Holy Spirit of Promise cannot seal (ratify, solemize, legitimize) any ordinance where in obedience to that covenant has not been kept. If therefore a man desires more than one wife either in this life or the next, he is in violation of the law of chastity and he cannot and will not obtain the blessing. That applies to any man or women who thinks a threesome will exhist in eternity. God is a God of truth and cannot lie.
It's especially weird when they seal a woman to multiple men because she was married to four different men and had children with each man with the idea that God will work it out and their agency has everything to do with the acceptance of the ordinance. Sealings present so many unanswered questions for me. i wish the doctrine was more clear and the revelation on it wasn't mingled with the lies in 132.
@@littleredhen3218yes I agree!! We need clear transparency from the church leaders to clarify what exactly the sealings mean. Oaks isn't even sure what it means ( referring to his conference address) ... where do we find answers??
I agree that belief in polygamy justifies pornography use and infidelity in this church. I have had 3 temple marriages and all of the men were unfairhful, 2 in actual infidelity and 1 with emotional affair, and all unrepentant. All 3 believe in polygamy. It has been so heart wrenching. Its subconscious effect of belief in polygamy in the church that men often get a backslap and a toast and the poor women are seen at fault when infidelity and pornography use or addiction is occurring.
Wow. I am so sorry you have had to go through this. Thank you for sharing your experience and important insights. It really is heartbreaking.
Thank you, Michelle, for taking your time to notice and comment. You're a gem.
Those men doing wrong does not mean that polygamy itself is wrong.
@@CMZIEBARTH The fact that God repeatedly says that polygamy is wrong means that polygamy is wrong.
@MichelleBStone Not getting at the whole story.
Doctrine and Covenants study in Sunday school this year will be interesting.
Seriously. I'm taking my 1835 addition and compare 🤣
I'm going to help speak truth. Its going to be a challenge, but it needs to be done by someone they know and love for the past 18 years in the ward.
@@StompMom5That's what I plan to do. I'll have a few other notes too.
@@RunningtoHim828 It boggles my mind to agree with Michelle and still want to go to Sunday School. Yall need a different Church to practice your faith. This Church is apostate if 132 is a sham.
If someone doesn't sue the church for teaching their underaged primary children about polygamy (which is illegal) against their will, knowledge, and parental consent. Should be a fun ride in 2025 indeed!
I had a dream that they were trying to bring it back. We have to stand strong and rebuke this evil practice.
I believe that humility means that we seek for truth. When I was in the MTC, Elder Ballard taught us that humility means, "coming to a fullness of the knowledge of the Son of God." Because Christ is the way, the truth, and the life, then humility must mean seeking for those things; we knock, ask, and seek for those things. We put our ego on the alter and accept all truth. We stop pretending to have blessings we do not have. We seek to honestly see the world and the Savior as they really are.
Steve, Michelle, wonderful podcast. This has been part of my journey:
The Only True Church? Where is it?
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claims to be the only organization on earth that has true “priesthood authority” to baptize and give the gift of the Holy Ghost, making it the “only true and living church” on the earth. What makes a church “true” according to the Lord, isn’t the brick and mortar, it’s the “living” [D&C 1: 30*31] people who choose to live in holiness of character! In other words, you are the metaphor for the “only true and living church,” just as you are the metaphor for the only true and living “temple of God,” if you live in holiness of character! Hence any person of any race or religion living in holiness is fulfilling the will of the Father. If you don’t believe this, you might want to take a closer look at the doctrine and what it really says. I have been a member all my life and it has only been in these last few years that this eternal pattern unfolds more clearly. Why the metaphor, or parable of a “church?” To wake us up in fellowship with the truth! Most people are asleep to the truth that is “in” them innately! Most people don’t believe they are the true “temple of the living God” and a “self-existing beings,” co-equal and co-eternal with God, without beginning of days or end of years [King Follet Sermon by the Prophet Joseph Smith]. The more I ponder scripturally our doctrine, the more I know this truth. That all things outside myself are symbols or metaphors to awaken me spiritually and put me on the inner path of fellowship with the truth that will liberate me from the chains of lies, deceit, and false doctrines! [2 Nephi 28:9-25] A warning to all churches today.
There are many paths to salvation. In “my Father’s house are many mansions” [John 14:2]. “Mansions” is a metaphor describing the many paths of brick and mortar [organized religions] that people follow through the “letter of the law,” which can captivate people and lull them away into false securities, if they don’t wake up! “These are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of one and some of another, some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch” [D&C 76: 99-100].
The “spirit of the law,” through “faith alone” [Romans 5:1; Hebrews 11:3] is the “the doctrine of Jesus Christ” [See Lectures on Faith 1:1; 7:15-17] and it is available to all people right now, this very moment if they are awake enough to embrace it completely. It is everyone’s innate birthright, and inheritance!
The “letter of the law” is for all who are asleep. The “spirit of the law” is for all who are awake! In the parable of the 10 Virgins, we “all slumbered and slept” [Matthew 25]. Symbolizing “we all” go through this process to one degree or another. Then the wake-up call is heard! The wake-up call has been out since Adam and Eve left the Garden, but not too many are listening! The word “Holiness” as defined in the LDS Bible Dictionary is one of many wake-up calls. Let’s list a few more. Are you listening? Do you believe these statements or are you still asleep?
1. “God is no respecter of persons” but of a godly character! When it comes to personal salvation, it matters not what religion or race we come from! [Acts 10:34] [Romans 2:11] [D&C 1:35; 38:16, 26-27].
2. “Power and Authority” to return to our Father in Heaven is innate to each of us! [1Nephi 10:17-22] [Words of Mormon 1:17] [Lectures on Faith 1:1; 7:15-17]. Therefore “pure religion” is about “keeping ourselves unspotted from the world” and becoming holy, honest and virtuous inside our soul. “Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards ALL men, and to the household of FAITH, [by faith alone!] and let virtue garnish thy thought UNCEASINGLY; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood [is the power and authority to love purely in virtue and honesty] shall distil upon thy soul as the dues of heaven.” What is the “doctrine of the priesthood?” It is to manifest the attributes of godliness found in D&C 121: 41-42 and it “distils” upon any “soul as the dues of heaven” who become “one” with them!
3. “Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth; And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come; And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning (D&C Section 93:23 - 25). You are a self-existing being without beginning of days or end of years, which means, you are an eternal being and always have been [Abraham 3:18]. [James 1:17-27].
4. The atonement is an eternal principle and is innate to each of us. It literally means “one with God.” It means to become one in godliness and holiness of character! “And let every man esteem his brother as himself, and practice virtue and holiness before me…I say unto you be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine” [D&C 38:24-27]. “For the natural man is an enemy to God” (Book of Mormon | Mosiah 3:19). And to “be one” is to be “born of God!”
Wow so beautifully expressed and exactly my feelings. I hope I can copy and paste your words to refer back to. Thank you so much for your comment!
@@teri4710 You are more than welcome to copy and paste any of my words anytime, even from my website.
I find it interesting that the church in the book of Helaman went through a period of rapid growth - and then we are taught that pride entered the church, and there were many dissentions from the church.... A book written for our day.....
The reason the domino theory doesn’t work is because we as mortals are forever in need of grace and mercy through Jesus Christ. Authority is present only when the Holy Ghost is present. Direct lines of authority are only happening through us and the Holy Ghost. That’s the only access anyone has to God.
Thanks for such a courageous and faith-enhancing discussion!
We all simply HAVE to CONFRONT and RESOLVE the MOST CRUCIAL HINGE-POINT QUESTION in all of the debates on Polygamy:
* SINCE Joseph Smith did NOT preach or practice polygamy--and therefore all evidence indicates BY introduced that "abomination" into the Lord's Restored Church--Is the current Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints STILL the LIVING and TRUE church the Lord restored through his servant Joseph Smith TODAY--with Jesus Christ himself at its head?
* (i.e., Did the keys, ordinances, covenants, and priesthood SURVIVE that 50+ years of corruption introduced by Brigham Young?)
We really, really, NEED the Lord to give us a DEFINITIVE and CLEAR response to that hinge-question!
* Well, He really, really HAS given us that DEFINITIVE and clear response.
* And He gave us that guidance through the Book of Mormon, in Jacob Chapter 5--within the Parable of the Olive Trees.
To appreciate the Lord's definitive and clear response, let's start with 2 critical truths BOTH SIDES of the Polygamy Debate completely AGREE upon:
# 1) In the Parable of the Olive Tree in Jacob 5, verses 62 through 77 refer specifically to OUR DISPENSATION, the time period since Joseph Smith's First Vision.
# 2) Something very, very "BAD" occurred during that Latter-Day Dispensation (ACCORDING TO those verses).
How " BAD"?
THIS BAD:
* In the entire 77 verses of Jacob 5, the word "BAD" is RESERVED EXCLUSIVELY for vss. 65-77 (to describe something very "BAD" that occurred specifically during OUR DISPENSATION).
* And that exclusive word "BAD" is used an astonishing TEN TIMES in those verses!
And yet, also astonishingly, I don't think ANYONE in the church for 200 years has ever really clearly explained WHAT happened in our dispensation that was so "BAD"!
I think NOW is a good time to do so.
Check out all these connections:
* THE ONLY OTHER TIME we find the word "BAD" in ALL SEVEN CHAPTERS of the Book of Jacob is in Jacob 2:35--when Jacob uses that word to describe the "BAD examples" of polygamous husbands, who "broke[ ] the hearts of your tender wives," causing "many hearts" to "die[ ], pierced with deep wounds and also causing "the sobbings of their hearts" to "ascend up to God against you." Wow!
* I'm sure we can all agree that "BAD" is an appropriate word to describe such actions by those polygamous husbands--who were targeted and condemned by the prophet Jacob.
* And I don't think it is just a coincidence that the RARELY USED word "BAD" somehow makes that conspicuous LEAP from Jacob 2 to Jacob 5:65-77.
* I think we have to at least broach the probability that the word "BAD" is used in BOTH cases to describe the SAME heart-fatal treatment rendered by corrupt and proud polygamous men upon "their tender wives," inflicting such "deep wounds" within "many hearts."
* Yes, the Lord (via Jacob and Zenos) is CLEARLY prophesying and warning us that the SAME really, really "BAD" thing that occurred during Jacob's time (the introduction of the abomination of polygamy) WAS to be REPEATED in our own dispensation.
* And here's the GREAT NEWS in all this: the Lord is ALSO showing us--in those SAME verses (5:65-75)--that the Keys, Ordinances, Covenants, and Priesthood authority will BE PRESERVED., despite this polygamy episode in our dispensation!
With all that in mind, I'll paste verses from Jacob 5:65-69, 73-75 below, along with some commentary (with my added comments always [bracketed] ):
Some potential definitions to keep in mind:
"NATURAL" = That which was originally planted and ordained by the Lord (versus "Wild," "Bitter," "Bad," “Unnatural,” or "Evil," which oppose the Lord)
"NATURAL BRANCHES" = those essential keys, covenants, ordinances, & blessings, which the Lord PRESERVES
"TREE" = The vehicle for gathering and blessing the Lord's children through the Gospel
"FRUIT" = The lives of the members or disciples
"ROOT" = The atoning sacrifice of Christ
"TOP" = Christ as the Head of the Tree or Church
Jacob 5:65-69:
* [The Lord of the vineyard cautions his servants to] "clear away the branches [polygamy] which bring forth BITTER FRUIT," while being careful to "not clear away the BAD (polygamy) thereof all at once, lest [they completely] lose the trees [of life] of my vineyard"
* " .... wherefore ye shall clear away the bad (polygamy) according AS the GOOD shall GROW.... until the good [keys, etc., plus monogamy] shall OVERCOME the bad..."
* " .... And thus will I sweep away the BAD out of my VINEYARD, & the BRANCHES of the NATURAL TREE [priesthood keys, covenants, ordinances, temple blessings, etc.] will I graft in AGAIN unto the NATURAL tree [monogamy] .... "
* " .... & thus will I bring them [NATURAL BRANCHES and TREE or keys, etc. plus monogamy] TOGETHER AGAIN, that they shall bring forth the NATURAL FRUIT, & they [natural trees, branches, and fruit] shall be one .... & the bad [polygamy] shall be cast away, yea, even out of all the land of my vineyard...." (Jacob 5:65-69)
Jacob 5:73-75:
* "And there began to be the NATURAL FRUIT again in the vineyard; & the NATURAL BRANCHES began to grow & thrive exceedingly; & the WILD branches [polygamy] began to be plucked off & to be cast away; and they did keep the ROOT & the TOP thereof" [perhaps the atoning sacrifice of the Lord as the "ROOT" & the Lord's place at the head of His church as "the TOP"]
* " .... And thus they labored .... even until the BAD [polygamy] had been cast away out of the vineyard, and the Lord had PRESERVED unto himself that the trees had become again the natural fruit [of the NATURAL roots, tree, and branches]; and they became like unto ONE BODY; and the FRUITS were EQUAL [perhaps in the way men and women in the Lord's church should always be seen as equally valued in the eyes of their Heavenly Father--which polygamy corrupts?]; & the Lord of the vineyard had PRESERVED unto himself the NATRUAL FRUIT [that was nurtured from the natural ROOTS (of the atonement), natural BRANCHES (of keys, covenants, ordinances), and natural TREES (of monogamy)], which was most precious unto him from the beginning ...."
* " .... And ... the Lord of the vineyard saw that his fruit was good, and that his vineyard was no more corrupt .... and the bad [polygamy] is cast away [and he said to his servants:] .... behold ye shall have joy with me because of the fruit of my vineyard." (Jacob 5:73-75)
Bottom line:
* We can recognize that polygamy was indeed "bad" and a blight (temporary "wild branches") upon the Lord's restored church--that had to be "plucked out" to preserve the olive tree and allow the good fruit to be nourished and flourish,
* That Joseph Smith indeed condemned and shunned the abomination and practice of polygamy--which was, as he and the scriptures always clearly and unequivocally exclaimed, a corruption and an abomination (or blight) that especially undervalued, and often subjected, pierced, and shot daggers into the tender hearts of the Lord's daughters,
* But that, DESPITE THAT (temporary) CORRUPTION, the still-preserved and living roots (atonement of Savior) & "natural branches" of the olive tree (such as priesthood keys, covenants, ordinances, & temple blessings) REMAIN an integral part of the Lord's living church today . . . with the Savior Himself at the head (TOP) of that church . . .
(Just one added note: I notice that Zenos also uses the word "bad" in ONE other verse (5:35). . . I personally think the Parable at this point describes the Nephite episodes of polygamy ... since that "bad fruit" arises in "the nethermost parts of the vineyard" in "a good spot of ground" that was "choice unto me above all other parts of the land of my vineyard," a common scriptural phrase for America. )
(Sorry how LONG this comment has been . . . but I have something more to add . . . which I'll include as a REPLY to myself below :--D
As I said above, we LDS face the MOST CRITICAL DECISION JUNCTION since the death of the Lord’s founding prophet, Joseph Smith.
Why? Because BOTH items below are clearly true:
TRUTH # 1
Joseph Smith ALWAYS condemned and NEVER preached or practiced ANY form of polygamy by any name (celestial or plural marriage or spiritual wifery, etc.) and was ALWAYS faithful to his ONE wife, Emma.
TRUTH # 2
THEREFORE, though tough to hear--Brigham Young introduced the abominations of polygamy (Jacob 2-3) into the church, while FALSELY PINNING that decision upon Joseph Smith.
So what’s next for LDS members?
We must also accept:
TRUTH # 3
That corruption introduced through polygamy DID NOT destroy or cancel these LIFEBLOOD elements of the Lord's true and living restored church, which REMAIN with us TODAY:
* the PRIESTHOOD KEYS
* the continuing presence & efficacy of COVENANTS (including Abrahamic, Sacramental, Temple, & Book of Mormon (see DC 84)
* the continued efficacy of TEMPLE WORK and ORDINANCES, which build upon those KEYS and COVENANTS, and which continue to make possible the work of salvation on BOTH SIDES of the veil.
* the Savior's atoning sacrifice--as the life-giving ROOT of His restored church today
* the Savior Himself--as the HEAD of his living and restored church today
I think the Lord gave us the Parable of the Olive Trees to help us accept those 3 truths above.
In the parable:
* He warns us how the polygamy Jacob condemned in his day would arrive in OUR DAY and
* He shows us how the Lord would preserve the good and "NATURAL BRANCHES" of the Olive Tree (the LIFEBLOOD found in KEYS, COVENANTS, and TEMPLE ORDINANCES) even after the CORRUTPION from the WILD and BAD branches that infested the VINEYARD during polygamy . . . More on that parable's message to us today--as I REPLY to myself below)
In the meantime, this bit of advice seems relevant:
* DON'T FEAR the TRUTH
* CELEBRATE the FACT that the Lord's Founding Prophet, Joseph, always spoke the truth when he said he never practiced polygamy and was always faithful to his one wife, Emma (C'mon--doesn't that just make you take a big breath of relief and shout: "Halleluiah Joseph!")
* TRUST that the Lord preserved the foundations of his church (the keys, covenants and ordinances) --even if Brigham Young temporarily introduced polygamy and its inevitable corruptions into the Lord's vineyard.
(I'll Reply once more to myself to show some interesting parallels between Jacob's sermon in Jacob 2-3 and the parable of Zenos in Jacob 5. Clearly, Jacob 5 is simply a CONTINUATION of Jacob's sermon in Jacob 2-3.)
As I said above, we LDS face the MOST CRITICAL DECISION JUNCTION since the death of the Lord’s founding prophet, Joseph Smith.
Why? Because BOTH items below are clearly true:
TRUTH # 1
Joseph Smith ALWAYS condemned and NEVER preached or practiced ANY form of polygamy by any name (celestial or plural marriage or spiritual wifery, etc.) and was ALWAYS faithful to his ONE wife, Emma.
TRUTH # 2
THEREFORE, though tough to hear--all evidence indicates BY introduced polygamy into the church, while FALSELY PINNING that decision upon Joseph Smith.
So what’s next for LDS members?
We must also accept:
TRUTH # 3
That corruption introduced through polygamy DID NOT destroy or cancel these LIFEBLOOD elements of the Lord's true and living restored church, which REMAIN with us TODAY:
* the PRIESTHOOD KEYS
* the continuing presence & efficacy of COVENANTS (including Abrahamic, Sacramental, Temple, & Book of Mormon (see DC 84)
* the continued efficacy of TEMPLE WORK and ORDINANCES, which build upon those KEYS and COVENANTS, and which continue to make possible the work of salvation on BOTH SIDES of the veil.
* the Savior's atoning sacrifice--as the life-giving ROOT of His restored church today
* the Savior Himself--as the HEAD of his living and restored church today
I think the Lord gave us the Parable of the Olive Trees to help us accept those 3 truths above.
In the parable:
* He warns us how the polygamy Jacob condemned in his day would arrive in OUR DAY and
* He shows us how the Lord would preserve the good and "NATURAL BRANCHES" of the Olive Tree (the LIFEBLOOD found in KEYS, COVENANTS, and TEMPLE ORDINANCES) even after the CORRUTPION from the WILD and BAD branches that infested the VINEYARD during polygamy . . . )
In the meantime, this bit of advice seems relevant:
* DON'T FEAR the TRUTH
* CELEBRATE the FACT that the Lord's Founding Prophet, Joseph, always spoke the truth when he said he never practiced polygamy and was always faithful to his one wife, Emma (C'mon--doesn't that just make you take a big breath of relief and shout: "Halleluiah Joseph!")
* TRUST that the Lord preserved the foundations of his church (the keys, covenants and ordinances) --even if Brigham Young temporarily introduced polygamy and its inevitable corruptions into the Lord's vineyard.
Clearly, Jacob 5 is simply a CONTINUATION of Jacob's sermon in Jacob 2-3--and condemns polygamy both in OUR DISPENSATION as well as Jacob's.)
Notice how many ways the Parable of Zenos (in Jacob 5) expands upon the principles taught in Jacob 2-3, which supports finding a condemnation of polygamy as a theme within that parable:
I.
Pride preceded the sins condemned in both Jacob's sermon and Zenos' parable:
* Jacob's condemnation of the neglect of the poor as well as the abomination and whoredoms of polygamy that "cropped up" among the Nephites is preceded, appropriately, by his condemnation of the "pride" of his people);
* And likewise, we learn from Zenos' parable that the primary cause that "corrupted [the Lord's] vineyard" [also leading perhaps to the greater abominations of adultery and fornication--perhaps practiced under the name of polygamy] was "the LOFTINESS [within] thy vineyard" (verses 47 and 48).
* Certainly, the corruption that provokes "taking many wives and concubines" follows from the prideful attitude that "I am above those silly, naive constrictions of monogamy. I should be able to indulge myself and my carnal desires as often as I please. And all those women should just submit to my superior power over them."
II. Both cases follow from a desire to protect and preserve the "tender hearts" of the wives and daughters:
* Perhaps Jacob includes Zenos' parable to emphasize how the regular "cropping up" of the abomination of polygamy so consistently blights healthy family relationships and causes "the sorrow .... and mourning of the daughters of my people .... in all the lands of my people [or ... in all parts of my vineyard] because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands" (Jacob 2:31).
* And therefore, not surprisingly, a primary concern in both Jacob's sermon and Zenos' parable (verses 4 and 8) is protecting and preserving the "TENDER HEARTS" of the wives and daughters (Zenos talks about his concern for the "YOUNG and TENDER branches" of the olive trees) amidst that regular corruption of polygamy.
III. Polygamy may be seen to “curse” the land (or vineyard) in both Jacob’s sermon and Zenos’ parable
* Jacob, Chapter 5 can be seen to support Jacob's desire for his people to "build a sure foundation" through practicing God's universal law of monogamous marriage and thereby healthy family relationships.
* And perhaps the primary "corruptor" of that "sure foundation" is polygamy that so regularly infests and rots the roots and branches of the olive tree--as they are re-planted throughout the Lord's vineyard) and frustrates the Lord's desire to "raise up a righteous branch [of that olive tree] from the fruit of the loins of Joseph."
* Therefore, the parable of Zenos may naturally follow from Jacob's severe "overanxiety" and warning "against fornication and lasciviousness, and every kind of sin, telling them the awful consequences of them," including "cursing of the land [or vineyard]," which cursing serves as the primary motif of Jacob, Chapter 5.
My husband George Ernest Bates was a great grandson of Ormus Ephraim Bates and Sarah Hymas. Sarah became the fourth wife to Robert Daines.
Cool connection! He’s my 4th half cousin or something like that.
This video was so perfect!! Absolutely amazing!! Great job Michelle and
Steve👌. I love that he was honest about his thoughts and behavior pertaining to doctrine of the devil we call divine.
I think when the truth finally comes forward from the higher ups when that happens it'll destroy the testimony of so many men who believe heaven is nothing but $ex.
Amazing how limited these polygamist are toward God. How they forget his divinity and power being the creator of mankind. Polygamy puts man over God to rule over him. Amazing how members can't see that and how indoctrination can cloud the mind to truth. It allows the devil to take over.
One thing I didn't agree with was the part where he said "pride because we know the real truth."
Maybe some people are like that but it has left me more confused than prideful. Knowing the real truth that early church created multiple ped0philes only grossed me out not make me feel like I knew something special. I honestly don't feel like many are prideful knowing the real truth. I believe it causes more pondering, anger and creates more confusion while the feeling of gratitude becomes overwhelming that we get to know God better if that makes sense. However.... I agree that pride is a HUGE problem in the church just not as much with us monogamy affirmers but maybe that's just how I see it.
Great discussion!!
Thank you so much!
Oh my, the Sunday morning shame fest. I can so relate.
Yes. Might not be long before the internal shamers are joining the street preachers on the corners of events and temples. :>)
Any woman who has had to deal with pornography or adultery knows when her husband has stepped out if she has any discernment whatsoever. It wouldnt shock me to find out Joseph participating in vicarious sealings was misconstrued and used as the foundation for it. It is absolutely a damaging act.
If we cannot trust prophets and apostles, we cannot trust anything they say. What other teachings and doctrines are we going to find out are false in this life or the afterlife?
“Get thee behind Me, Satan! Thou art an offense unto Me; for thou savorest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.”
Other than the singular example of D&C section 132, where do you see God savoring men having many wives as concubines? The Book of Mormon says God “suffers” it, and in fact that God will not suffer the cries of the fair daughters because of this abomination, rather they will be cursed to destruction. We were threatened with destruction (see Wilford Woodruff’s manifesto), the polygamous groups all over the world are constantly in a chaotic fight for survival. Please, for a moment, set aside our traditions and open your heart and mind to another way of seeing this.
I am so grateful that i was never slim and pretty. I had to learn selfworth and confidence on just who i was and not rely on good looks.
Yea, you need a good conspiracy theory for that also!!!
Please find me in the scriptures where middle ground was ever required of the Saints .
Nephi slaying Laban, Abraham and Issac, Killing in war, Adam and Eve taking the fruit, Jesus hanging out with sinners, Joseph destroying the printing press. And yes, polygamy. Plenty of grey area out there I think
@Coastal1931 I dont think any of those are miiddle ground. But I can see how they would confuse the learner. Nephi slaying Laban was a just act. The man had stolen from his family and tried to kill him and his brothers. After his acts, he should have escaped to a city of refuge, but he didn't, because he thought he was too powerful for anyone to give him justice. Killing in war that God commands is not middle ground. How could killing ever be middle ground? It is as one sided as you can get! Polygamy was always wrong and Joseph didn't do it! No grey area! No middle ground. God does not change.
@ The scriptures are full of contradictions. Nephi sleying Laban was murder by any earthly law. As far as Jiseph practicing polygamy, thats settled history. Waste your life on conspiracy theories if you like.
@@joyfulsuretyNephi murdered Laban. In fact, let's show you how ridiculous this story is. Laban was a leader supposedly, charged also with keeping a sacred text, possibly handed down from multiple generations. We only see Nephi's telling of said story, but no one else's. If you had a sacred artifact, that you were charfed to keep by your religious elders, and some random family demanded to take them, what would you say? If they came back with money, isn't that bribery? Potentially against the law and could be uses as evidence as such, thus the seizure of property?
But there is more. After this murder, Nephi breaks two more commandments. Bearing of false witness, and stealing. And all this sin to do something they had an easy alternative to accomplishing. They did not need those plates. They could have asked to copy them down, or just as easily, God could have commanded Laban to give the plates to them, but He did not. This story does nothing but prove that the BOM is not a loving God's scripture.
@@joyfulsurety "The man had stolen from his family and tried to kill him and his brothers"
The saints were facing genocide and Zion was threatened with extinction or at least so insignificant as to hinder a speedy growth in the church as to take the gospel to the four quarters of the earth. A just act. Would've, could've and Na ah just doesn't cut it. What next, are you going to start suggesting what the Lord, Joseph, Brigham and every prophet after should have done?? Of course you are and already have. We'll just be happy accepting the way it actually was. That might be the wisest thing to do.
"Polygamy was always wrong and Joseph didn't do it! "
You're wrong and Joseph never physically practiced it but he indeed set up the spiritual end of things to reinstate it as he, nor the Lord were ignorant as what was to come. When Smith was finally murdered, it was go time! The requirement of physically raising up seed unto the house of God via plural marriages.
NO MIDDLE GROUND 😇
Oh Steve, my dear brother…
When you shared the quote from Joseph after returning home from the grove but replacing “Presbyterianism” with “polygamy”, you currently have NO IDEA how apt that word swap was. But you will one day at this rate ;). Keep studying my friend. The Truth of what Joseph intended to communicate to us regarding that beautiful morning is right there in broad daylight for us to read. Always has been. He just had to conceal it to a degree so the wicked would “comprehend it not” so they couldn’t corrupt that too, but Light is on the up and up once again and it’s there for those with the eyes to see.
In my opinion, no greater PROOF Joseph was faithful to Emma exists or even can exist outside of that last, First Vision account he penned at the end of his life he knew would soon come.
No matter if he did or didn’t practice polygamy….the church has in the past and present lied about it and much more. You have to become a nuanced member to stay a member if today’s church.
What I don't understand and I am really, truly trying to, if Joseph Smith did not commit polygamy, then why do you believe in and support current church leaders who say that he did? Someone is not telling the truth. Leaders of the church have "tricked" women into adultery, unless you also believe that these women will not be held responsible for their actions, and they still are revered as men of God. I cannot understand how people who strongly believe that JS was not a polygamist can still support the prophet. What about the new cartoon that was JUST put out explaining it?
These are valid questions that I have been asked, and responded to repeatedly. I don't have time to again here, but in short, the church is FAR more than our complicated history with uncomfortable topics like polygamy and racism. I do not believe that prophets are infallible any more than I believe local leaders are. But the fact that leaders have erred does not mean I need to leave the church that I love and that God has repeatedly led me to stay in. I am able to separate baby and bath water. I don't feel obligated to leave the church because of things I disagree with, any more than I feel obligated to leave my country because of things I disagree with. The foundations of both are very, very good, and I have hope for the future and strong faith that the Good continues to outweigh the bad.
When you learn to understand that the Lord nor Joseph Smith were ignorant to the fate of early Saints future that was staring them in the eyes. You will then see the justifications of Smith setting up the practice to commence in the near future. The practice was reintroduced to the Lord's restored church because failure including genocide was coming down the pike. Joseph set up the spiritual part(s) of it even though he himself had not PHYSICALLY practiced it. His murder kicked it all off and the next in line commenced raising up seed as fast as possible in the church to ensure the survival and growth of Zion. Nobody was tricked, no cartoon nor were all the Saint commanded to partake. Only those who would and could handle it righteously were commanded by to.
What I mean by that is... poor men were never expected to have more than one wife. Lustful men taking on wives for the wrong reasons either.
@@MichelleBStone The crazy thing is you thinking this is an answer or a valid response to a valid question. All saying that God has told you to stay and that the foundation is beautiful and we shouldn't toss everything out because of men's and leaders mistakes does is allow people to behave like protestants and think, gee I can pick and choose whatever I want to and use my interpretation of scripture and history as the backing of my new beliefs and build a network of people who agree with me that xyz are bad. The problem is you did dump the baby with the bath water and you just can't admit that you did. You're in denial. And you're creating an environment for more people to be in denial. This is the same kind of movement of trans people who deny their own gender.
@@MichelleBStone That is not an answer. All you said is you are picking and choosing what to believe or not, which is ultimately what led people to protestantism and yes throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
@@MichelleBStone Even shorter than that, you have gained the ability to pick and choose.
Also, read the lesser revekation to Joseph for them to take wives of the Lamanites! Stop your BS!!!
Please look up the sourcing for that. It is not a good claim.
If you want to be taken seriously in these discussions, you need to get up to speed on the work that has been done. Throwing out claims like this does not help your credibility.
Here, I'll help you out with this one. It comes from a letter W.W. Phelps wrote to Brigham Young in 1861, claiming to write word for word a revelation Joseph Smith supposedly had 30 years earlier. There is no earlier source (which Phelps makes clear in this letter) and there is no substantiation for the claim. Joseph never taught it, and he certainly never practiced it. Like so many of these completely unsupported decades late claims, this fits in perfectly in frontier Utah, where Phelps may have wanted to take a native woman, but it has no support whatsoever earlier than that, and there is certainly nothing that would show that Joseph said anything of the kind.
Not sure youtube will let me post a link, but if so, here you go. catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/88f7e388-fbe3-46a5-ab12-b775ac6f3601/0/3
Reading the comments proves the Echo Chamber exist. The same people (including me) writing about the same things.
LOL, are you claiming nobody in the comments disagrees?
You must be reading a different comment section than I am 😉
@MichelleBStone No I'm just reading correctly. If you see my comment. I included myself. Which means that the people who disagree (me) are saying the same things. Which means those who agree with you have not and likely will not be able to rebut anything that people who disagree with you are saying. They just echo what they have been saying over and over again never answering or addressing the main issues.
What if their pedistal is keeping them from being able to ascend?
@@joyfulsurety I think this is what pedestals tend to do.
Amen 🙏
@54:56
Sentinel passed. Keep going Steve. The rewards are glorious indeed
The church of Scientology boasts that they are not a “no change” group. I think the LDS church should be okay with change also. If we are to be progressing, then it would follow that we will make changes.
Ugh... Joseph Smith was not a polygamist but righteous polygamy has been true!! Try and keep it together, ya all.
1:48 Michelle... the church HAS given up the practice of polygamy. Where have you been all this time??
I don’t see the link between belief in polygamy and justification to engage with porn.
There really isn't one. What they are implying is that only people who would be interested in porn would be the kind to engage in polygamy. It's a very shallow inaccurate thought that lumps righteous plural marriage in with the wrong kind of polygamy which no man or woman should ever accept. They just don't get it because there is no light in them regarding this issue therefore are in a state of confusion.
The Lord's house is not one of confusion.
What God's Offspring said. Lots of unwarranted connections and leaps in logic are being made in these videos.
Steve Reed discusses this in his blog post about Jacob 2:30 and made some excellent points. I do see a connection between this and a "desire" for "many wives and concubines." Both are based in, and feed, man's selfishness and lust. Both allow, and even encourage imagination about a large variety of women to be at our beck and call. In that way both are pretty awful. C.S. Lewis talking about a "virtual harem," in connection to masturbation wrote, "For the harem is always accessible, always subservient, calls for no sacrifices or adjustments, and can be endowed with erotic and psychological attractions which no real woman can rival. Among those shadowy brides he is always adored, always the perfect lover: no demand is made on his unselfishness, no mortification ever imposed on his vanity. In the end, they become merely the medium through which he increasingly adores himself."
The way Brigham Young and subsequent polygamists taught/teach polygamy glorifies the man by reducing the women. Both porn and 132 turn women into objects to serve the purposes and desires of men. The "keep sweet" approach is designed to make men not have to "deal" with women's experiences, wants, desires, pain, etc. I think there is a very distinct connection.
@MichelleBStone There are enough quotes to counter what you are saying. You will come upon them if you keep researching. Yes, it's already known that sometimes people behave poorly and that not every quote is the greatest. If Brigham's understanding was not perfect at first there's good evidence that it grew over time. Many quotes in the Journal of Discourses talk very strongly about how polygamy is *not* for satisfying worldly lusts.
@@MichelleBStone couldn’t you equally put this sort of argument towards monogamy? I would argue that porn afflicts the monogamist equally, if not more, than the polygamist. I feel this is a stretch IMO.
The righteousness of the principle of polygamy does NOT hinge on whether or not Joseph did/taught it or not.
I agree.
Joseph Smith III said the same thing. Not as any sort of admission that his father was a polygamist, but to make the same point we are making -- even if Joseph had done it (which the evidence shows more and more that he didn't) it would still have been an abomination.
@ This understanding was so liberating! The hypothetical implications of Joseph practicing or teaching polygamy would be repentance. This is the same repentance we must all engage in.
It hinges on the effects upon those who practice it. It leads to misery bc wickedness never was happiness.
Polygamy is nothing compared to the belief that Jesus Christ was created in heaven by a mother and father god, that he is the biological son of a god, that He is just a creature, according to Mormonism. Jesus is not a creature, He is God, He is our creator, He cannot create Himself. John 1:1 In the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word is God. The Word is Jesus. This is the worst abomination of Mormonism that Jesus is a creature like us, who exulted himself to a god. Jesus is infinite not finite, we are finite, we are changeable God is not. Mormonism has the wrong Jesus, unbiblical.
*yawn* We've heard all these shallow attacks before.
@@CMZIEBARTH They are not attacks they are the gospel the biblical gospel.
@@hollayevladimiroff131 There is no biblical gospel or teaching that Jesus was not created by His heavenly Father or Mother.
You need to learn your Bible better. "In the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word is God."
Right, so in the beginning was Jesus Christ and he was with His Father and they are both Gods...... GOD. Jesus Himself has told YOU that His Father has sent Him to create the earth, teach the prophets and redeem all mankind. Wake up Vlad.
@@godsoffspring4195 That opposes the King Follett Sermon so tell us how to rectify that. Additionally that clashes with the 3 Heavens in which Celestal Kingdoms create new worlds. Where are those Saints going? In classical non-Mormon teachings they go back to God or choose not to(Heaven/Hell). So which is it one place or three?
@@whatsup3270 How about you rectify your ridiculous question by coughing up the opposing parts that bother you that apparently in the KF sermon. Try that.
One heaven, 3 levels of glory. Come back when you get that right too. K??
Going back to God involves all three glories. Not achieving any of the three, you go the other way. So... it's only two directions.
By the way who told you that any of the two directions are necessarily and simply 'places". More like eternal states of mind and capabilities.
Try that. :>)
P. ORN IS NOT POLYGAMY. IT’S P ROSTI TUTION!!!! Enough with the projection.
Love Doc J.
I had the same happy emotional reaction that he expressed at 54:55 of this video when I believed Whitney Horning's Remnant Church claims that Joseph never authored 132. And that polygamy was a sin conceived by what became the Utah Saints.
Unfortunately, I discovered on own after reading the Nauvoo Expositor affidavits (and numerous souces since) that Whitney Horning and the Remnant Church she embraces is 100% dilusional in denying Joseph's authorship of 132.
Michelle, YOU ARE DESTROYING 80 % OF YOUR EFFECTIVENESS IN COMBATTING THE EVILS OF POLYGAMY BY EMBRACING THE REMNANT CHURCH DILUSIONS
Pedestalizing Joseph and scapegoating his mistakes on to others will continue to destroy your message.
Please, please stop. At least, take a neutral stance on whether Joseph authored 132.
For me learning that Joseph didn't originate, polygamy came along after learning that polygamy was not of God. I agree with you that it is a separate issue. I strongly disagree with you that the novel Expositor is good. Evidence that polygamy originated with Joseph Smith. I will be providing further evidence of that in upcoming episodes. I hope you will be able to open your mind to further evidence.
@@MichelleBStone Thanks for the censor of almost all my comments. I know they are very hard to deal with but I thought open mindedness was welcome on this channel. Silly me?? :>)
@@godsoffspring4195 I haven't deleted a single one of your comments.
@@MichelleBStone Thankyou for responding, dear sister. Seems most have been hidden from sight by somebody. I know if people complain to YT claiming Disinformation and other issues, they will automatically shadow ban rather than make judgement on millions of claims.
Seeing how you do see this one, Maybe I'll repost a comment here that I made to you on the main board.
What would have to say regarding proper plural families vs unrighteous polygamy if successful knowledge of artificial insemination or IVF was given to Abraham for the surrogacy of a son by Hagar, for example? What then?? There goes your claims against proper plurality for procreation of God's children and improper polygamy and trying to mix the two together? Righteous polygamy wasn't, isn't nor will never be about the lust for sex therefore no whoredoms committed. What say ye?? :>)
@@godsoffspring4195 I don't think anybody is complaining to youtube. Even if somebody were, that is a big process. For some reason youtube seems to delete comments, especially ones with links to other sites. I don't know why it happens, and it is extremely frustrating.
As to your question, I don't understand your point.
I don't believe there is such thing as "proper plural families" or "righteous polygamy." God repeatedly calls polygamy an abomination, and God does not command or authorize abomination. As mortals we all do the best we can. All of us fall short, and we all have need to repent. The biggest problem is when we call good evil and evil good and don't see our error and thus fail to repent.
Beyond that, your comment doesn't make sense to me. If Sarai had had any other means of gaining a child, she would not have asked Abram to use her slave girl Hagar as a surrogate. If Sarai could herself have been impregnated by IVF, I think they would definitely have done that. If that didn't work, and she could have hired a woman (who she did not own) who wanted to be a surrogate to be impregnated through artificial insemination, they would have probably done that. Neither of those would have had anything to do with polygamy, and Abram wouldn't have needed to have sex with Hagar - and thus count her as a concubine. So I honestly do fail to see your point.
Wait. Belief in polygamy allowed you to think it was ok to cheat on your spouse? This is common? (I’m not LDS)
Sadly, it is not an uncommon problem. As humans, we tend to be pretty good at finding ways to justify ourselves. Belief in eternal polygamy provides otherwise good men a perfect way to justify entertaining feelings for more than one woman. Some men may think, "Maybe she'll be my wife in the next life," which can lead to imagining things that would otherwise seem inappropriate. That is just one of many examples. There have been numerous break-off sects that practice various forms of "polygamy," or, what was once called spiritual wifery. I think it is an eternal problem. Steve is not alone in this. I am thankful that he is honest, humble, and courageous enough to be willing to talk about it.
No, it is not common but like in all religions there are always those who take things to the extreme or use anything they can to justify their behavior. Members know polygamy and adultery can get you excommunicated.
@@MichelleBStone I’ve mentioned before that my father in law was married and sealed to wife #2 after wife #1 passed. He married wife #2 so quickly I wonder if he had her in mind while my wife’s mother was alive. It’s an interesting faith you have. It has so many nuances that differ from my Catholic upbringing, polygamy being one of them.
@@Zeett09 It is sad part of our history that should not have been carried on in our faith.
@ I’ve said this before Michelle, I don’t think your theology supports a concept of zero polygamy in your highest level of heaven. As long as you have the concept of eternal families along with earthly death and remarriage (and sealing) I don’t see a way out of it. I don’t see your theology changing to forbid men from double sealings. Maybe you think differently.
Looks like the wear of apostasy is taking its toll on this wannabe apostate.
Michelle listening to you is like listening to a walking contradiction
Or a flat earther.
@@randyjordan5521 condescending comment. You obviously haven't listened to many. Their voices are varied and complex, like in most areas of belief.
Does that apply to anyone believing Brigham ?
@@lynnsmith9526 There is no question among serious, legitimate historians that Joseph Smith originated polygamy in Mormonism. If Brigham Young had never existed, that would not alter the facts one whit. Young was merely one of Smith's close, loyal followers who accepted and practiced polygamy along with about 130 other church members between 1841 and 1844.
@lynnsmith9526 it's clear there is no such thing as a prophet Seer or Revelator after looking at Brigham
"Repenting of Polygamy"??? Why do we need to be repenting for polygamy when there is no polygamy going on in this church? Do children need to repent for the sins of their mother and fathers?? Well here's some good news for you. The church has condemned the practice since the late 1800's.
Really, then why to the top two leaders in the LDS church openly discuss gloriously living with two wives in eternity. I don’t think either of these men were around in the 1800s. I see, we no longer saddle women with this abomination in their mortal lives, they can die only to find out later that without their permission their husband has created an eternal threesome for her to be a part of.
@@marksnodgrass8384 That is not practicing polygamy and according to the maker of this video and yourself, you have nothing to worry about if there is no plural marriage in the afterlife. You are simply barking at the moon. :>)
We still teach that is it a legitimately righteous practice, justify those that did it and teach God will command it.
If a man stopped cheating on his wife because he was compelled to, and justified his actions and said that God commanded him to do it and taught that God will sometimes command it, does that sound like repentance?
It is more about repenting for believing a false idea of the character and nature of God. Having believed that God would at times command or authorize polygamy is a the heart of what many feel the weight of.
Beyond that, many also feel the weight of having believed what D&C 122 calls "the testimonies of traitors" about Joseph Smith.
@@stevereedatx Being married to multiple wives is not cheating on your wife or wives. Bad comparison, M'man.
It is a righteous practice when or if the Lord says ... "OTHERWISE"
Is this what Mormon PTSD looks like?
Is your comments what somebody wanting to play Pig In the Middle looks like??
@@godsoffspring4195 They seem traumatized by their faith
No. Some people are traumatized by the lack of faith. You on the other hand are a stray dog in these discussions. Maybe take up needlepoint or something more useful to you, Richard. Go skiing or something. :>)
We don't focus on Grace alone, Faith alone, Word alone in this faith. It's a shame and a sin. We can be a tight knit community and it feels impossible to break free from the church and still live in God's love. So, yes, it's PTSD. Have compassion.
Why are you so drawn to her comments?
@ about 1 hour mark. Pride, guaranteed eternal exaltation, in polygamy goes like this: We are the most righteous generation since sliced bread! Our children are the most righteous spirits ever. Our sexual relationship and parenting skills produce "righteous seed unto God!" As IF, those kids have no AGENCY. How? (And maybe they do loose agency being trained from birth to believe polygamy is superior. Again, an argument not to teach this to kids!) They MUST all be righteous. Seed didn't come to Adam and Eve until AFTER the gospel was preached to them. It is through the gospel of Jesus Christ that we are born again and become children of God, through our choice to be baptized. "Seed unto God" is not and has never been through babymaking! It is only through personal conversion to Jesus Christ.
Sure thing. Tell that to Abraham.