Is the Word of Wisdom Wrong?
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
- It's widely known that Mormons don't drink alcohol or coffee or tea, but is this actually a commandment? Or have members of the LDS Church become like Pharisees in how they approach this principle of health?
Finally, I started coming across members who speak up what has been on my mind for decades. I have been feeling the same way, asking the same questions. We pay more attention to the form and keeping up appearances than to the essence of the Gospel. I am waking up.
Bingo.
I'm increasingly becoming the same way. I would dare say most members are completely missing the point and are in for a VERY rude awakening.
Just like much of the other parts of Christendom do.
I view the W.O.W. as the word of obedience.
Over the years, I've seen the softening of things concerning the word of wisdom, such as in interviews, where we are only asked if we obey it, without going into detail.
Love this.
I do not think the Lord wants us to be commanded in all things. I think the Word of Wisdom is a bit general and ambiguous for a reason. That if we really want to follow it completely and reap the amazing promised blessings within, we need to do so through personal study and personal revelation of how to apply it to us individually.
That's one thing you missed as well, no one really talks about just what the promised blessings are. Many people don't even know them.
But they are so powerful, not just good health, but great treasures of knowledge even hidden knowledge, and straight up protection from the destroying angel. So cool!
I’m not a believer but I like your videos and listening to your reasonings.
If I found your channel younger maybe I would have stayed. No one was willing to answer my questions back then and I saw very few people willing to engage in critical conversations where they were not scared of being mistaken for apostates.
I'm also not a believer but have been enjoying some of the videos.
I appreciate your perspective! I listened to this podcast a while ago, I wish you would have brought my two favorite parts of the Word of Wisdom "adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints" and the promise that the "destroying angel shall pass by them." I always thought that the Word of Wisdom became a commandment once they realized how weak the saints were. To some, alcohol can be extremely addictive. I have seen several people's lives get destroyed by alcohol. I always joke that life is already hard enough to make good decisions and throwing alcohol into the mix doesn't help one bit.
“Adapted to the capacity of the weak” implies that it is able to accommodate the needs of even the weakest, greenest member. It would be akin to having a clothing manufacturer able to fulfill any garment size be it big or small, tall or short, wide or narrow, petit or robust.
I have also come to realize that each of us must develop our own personal Law of Health. I am lactose intolerant. Though others may safely consume dairy, doing so for me would cause pain and discomfort. Should I insist others not partake of dairy? I have learned much by seeking to understand others viewpoints and then, judiciously, incorporating wisdom in my own.
So true about rhe spirit & principles of section 89 . . . members of the Church having caffeine cold instead of hot . . .
And I like the thou shalts.
I appreciate your musings. The way that the word of wisdom is looked at in the LDS church today as well as many of our “traditions” seem to be of a pharisaical nature to me. I believe that the Lord would have us be led by the spirit in all things.
It’s easy for me to deny coffee, tea, tobacco, and alcohol. But I can’t resist sugar and processed crap. I hate it.
I am enjoying this again, great information and things to ponder
Amen, good brother! Be blessed 🌿
So I shared this with some friends ... absolutely loved this!! It's so everything I have been thinking with regard to Word of Wisdom and also church culture and things we do because we think it's doctrine but it's actually culture...also my husband isn't a member I am and our children are. I don't really talk to much about avoided coffee or alcohol in my home because I don't want my kids thinking their dad is committing sin all the time 😆 but rather that it's given to us as advice and we need to pray about what that looks like in our own lives ..I had a bishop once say that when I asked why coffee he said sometimes its more a out being obedient than actually reasons why something is bad for you...huh ?? Who am I to be obedient too?? The handbook or God?
I love your logical brain and courage to say the emperor has no clothes.
Not much irritates a powerful church leader like focusing on in the scriptures above the leader’s teachings.
The “mild drinks” from barley was not beer. There was a mild drink commonly made back then where they toasted the barley and steeped it in warm water like a tea. Many foods and drinks popular in the 19th century and earlier are unfamiliar to us today. There are cool YT channels dedicated to recreating old recipes from the past.
Please share the source for the info you have defining "mild drinks" as excluding beers.
This is a great video. I have talked with my husband over the years about most of these things in the wow that you are talking about here and people never seem to notice what is actually in the wow.
Thank you for talking about the things I've been thinking about for a long time!!!
Love all that you shared! So awesome, thank you for putting this together!
But as long as a doctor prescribes benzodiazepines no problem
I have a small cup of coffee on average twice a week. And I was amazed when I first took that first swallow, what a powerful, spiritual experience it was. God testified to my soul, that he was pleased that I was shirking off the foolish traditions of men and making my own decisions based on His word. It was a clear “yes, yes, yes, as a middle-aged man you are finally becoming a rational, independent person”!
I think alcohol consumption has a very negative effect on our society overall. I drank a lot in my younger years and honestly I don't think I would have lost anything of value if I had never done it.
It brings nothing of value and if that's what the word of wisdom is addressing I think it's right.
I was strongly impressed by the spirit to quit nicotine and THC and a year and a half out I am convinced it was the right thing to do.
I interpret the word of wisdom to address addiction overall.
I read that at the time he got that revelation, the early Mormons were stinking up the chapels and meeting houses with tobacco coffee and liquor to the point that Emma Smith and other women were having to clean up nasty messes like spitoons etc. and they were getting very frustrated.
I think it's a good base position to start from, but I agree that it's not really a commandment and I don't think it should keep anyone out of the Temple necessarily.
I love these Sunday Musings I just recently discovered! A son, who has completely rejected the Church and is basically now an agnostic, said I should watch them. I'll admit that it being him who would suggest it makes me nervous. You do seem very critical of most of the prophets after Joseph Smith. Is "follow the prophet" also a myth to you? No, they shouldn't be blindly followed. We should always seek the personal confirmation of the Holy Ghost for what they say. But has your bishop or stake president ever come to you and said, "We need to have a little 'talk' Brother Boyack?" (I know that over a year after the video post Connor will doubtfully ever see this comment.)
You are so well spoken and obviously highly intelligent. A great communicator. I like you. In just the few videos I've seen so far you really get me thinking about things I never realized. You must be a libertarian at heart and so am I. I looked you up and the Tuttle Twins books seem like something every kid should read. I might get some for my grandkids. Freedom of choice and freedom itself and responsible limited government seem paramount to you. AMEN.
I'm a trying-to-be faithful recommend-holding converted LDS member, who has a testimony this is the true church of Jesus Christ, and who actually attempts to live His gospel, but not be a modern day pharisee. This musing, however, expresses well many of my same thoughts and misgivings about the present Church interpretation of Section 89 and if it really is a commandment. Especially when it comes to coffee and tea.
The prohibition against tobacco and alcohol don't bother me as much. But should that decion be left to each person, as you seem to insinuate? Still, I think of how many thousands and thousands of lives have been saved from lung cancer or DUI deaths because of how we've been told to avoid these substances. Or how many families have been spared from the horror and terror having an alcoholic parent can cause? I've seen plenty of the devastation that can bring.
Still, is the WOW a commandment or just, as you say, wise advice. A little wine or beer probably doesn't hurt. But because of my personality I'm thoroughly convinced I would have become a raging alcoholic if I ever began indulging at all. So I thank God I was raised according to the modern WOW interpretation to avoid those things.
But in my opinion something is definitely wrong with the Church culture now and direction inconsistencies when it comes to application of the word of "wisdom." I wish leadership would actually admit it was wrong and even change it. They are so obvious. Of course that would also be to admit that "prophets" (who I've always admired), like Heber J. Grant and Joseph Fielding Smith, were outright completely wrong. We can't have that. But I went to southern France on my mission and think of all the investigators we maybe unnecessarily lost because they couldn't conceive of abandoning their beloved wine or English investigators their cherished tea.
That's where I am with the wow. I have no problem with following it because I value my health and I like to be in control of my words and actions. But the whole coffee and tea thing is outrageous. I don't think that I will take up coffee even though it has good health benefits but I will and do use tea for health benefits. No, for anyone who might wonder, I do not have a recommend because I will not lie to get one.
I’m a little uncomfortable with your take because I do believe in revelation, not just the scriptures. I am grateful for the counsel of living prophets. I also have a brain and can see what hurts us and what helps us. I know many who justify anything even if it hurts them or others. Lots of good arguments here but there seems to be a little line crossing here.
Help me understand how you see a conflict in the reality of revelation and the analysis here.
Line crossing?.... lol sounds like something someone that is culturally misled would say.
The fact that you think God would let early converts "adapt".... and the church shifted to where God no longer allows converts to "adapt"
Like ohhh nahhh God let early converts follow it as a guide to moderation.... and then 7 years removed from Joseph Smith drinking beer.... God said "ok, now my children, converts to the church in 2024 must obey the word of wisdom to join"
Drinking alcohol and eating meat is not immoral- the Bible actually makes that clear. Disobedience to God is immoral however - and the Lord has given non-universal instruction and commands previously - manner of dress, building arks, the tabernacle.
The word of wisdom was not given by commandment, but the leaders later accepted it as a commandment. If you sustain them as prophet seers and revelators, you may also believe they are authorised to do that.
WoW is a rare piece of instruction where the Lord shows the depth of his concern for our physical health and wellbeing. It's worth the thought this video puts into it and more besides
@@curtisdecker3175the Church has adapted its policy on the WoW in certain regions where alcohol and cigarette use is rife- and allowed converts to be baptized even when they aren't fully in compliance.
Adapted to the weakest.
@anthonyshannon7559 exactly that is my point. I have no issue following the WoW but I also know how "follow the Prophet" can also lead to "never question the Prophet" which can lead to "the Prophet always leads correctly and never by cultural persuasion"..... this leads to apostasy in certain areas. The funny part is that the Prophets may say it's a commandment or that it's required... but they dare not write it down as doctrine.
I’m not all the way through yet, but I’m curious why we tie the wow to the baptismal interview.
like he said, maybe it is what makes us peculiar. Why do we tie paying tithing to that same interview to be forgiven of our sins, when salvation is free? My thought is if you want a behavior, you tie it to something essential like your salvation. And then preach Temple, Temple, Temple. see Mormon 8:32 , Jeremiah 7:4. I love that critical thinking is having a come back.
I'm a little late to the party here, but I can't resist challenging you, Connor, about one of your inaccurate points in this musing. You talk about hot drinks and you're discussing the word "hot" and what it means. You refer to the 1828 Noah Webster dictionary as an authorative source to see what words meant back in Joseph Smith's day. I applaud you doing this, and I happen to have that very dictionary myself for the same purpose. You point out that one of the definitions of "hot" in that dictionary is "stimulating". Then you proclaim that means "hot" in those days is not temperature, it's a stimulant. This is simply not true. You are either ignorant of what the dictionary actually means by "stimulating" or you are intentionally misconstruing the meaning to serve your purpose in this musing. Here is what the dictionary actually says, "6. Acrid; biting; stimulating; pungent; as hot as mustard or pepper." First, note that this is the sixth item in the definitions for "hot". The first item is, "1. Having sensible heat; opposed to cold; as a hot stove or fire; a hot cloth; hot liquors. Hot expresses more than warm." This was the primary meaning of "hot" in 1828, and it's the same today. To suggest that the meaning of "hot" in the Word of Wisdom is anything else is at best misleading and at worse dishonest. Second, clearly the meaning of "stimulating" in the 1828 definition of "hot" has nothing to do with stimulants such as caffeine. As you can see, the kind of "stimulating" referred to is stimulation one might get from mustard or pepper. As you have said many times in your musings, we all make mistakes, myself and you included for sure. You also have said that one sign of a truth teller is that when he makes a mistake, he owns up to it and corrects it at least as publically as the error was made. So, Connor, I believe that you, as a truth teller, need to retract your error here and apologize to your listeners. Just my opinion.
Health science has shown that “spicy” foods can increase vigor and vitality to our mortal bodies.
My mother said she thought it meant the temperature of the beverage because some people drink it almost boiling. That sounds right to me. A funny incident: our relief city president purposely served Coca Cola at our luncheon to prove it wasn't against the Word of Wisdom. I believe it never was meant to be more than just a word of wisdom for us to be aware of what we take into our body.
What the Lord said should have been enough. Removing agency from this has had a positive effect on the church as a whole. Some day maby some day we will return to the original. In the United States allowes weed killer to be used on grain crops. This has resulted in wheat and corn actually being a different product that that of the 1800s.
I fully agree with all you have said other than the downplaying of beer. Maybe, was beer made differently or had a different alcohol content in the mid-1800s? There are alcoholics in my family that have ruined lives because of their addiction, and their drink of choice was/is beer. I just dont buy that beer is no big deal. I understand the history of the church surrounding beer, but I've even seen it used as a means to self-destruct one's life. It takes a lot and takes time, but my point is that it's probably not wise to downplay the stuff.
I understand where you're coming from. I have alcoholics in my family. Having drank plenty before, I can tell you if someone doesn't have an addictive personality, small amounts can relax you without having intoxicating effects.
Having grown up with parents that drank too much, I'm not a fan of alcohol. In ideal circumstances, wine of thine own make, in moderation, is in line with the WoW.
Who gave BY "permission" to change the Lord's scripture/words without a new revelation? Surely mere mortals don't have the authority to change what God has clearly said.
So if it’s an “ unnatural” stimulating drink then coffee should be ok. It’s caffeinated naturally.
Sugar is a habit forming substance. Problem is, it is the person with habitual tendencies (everyone) that brings the potential for habits, to the table.
This is why the law explicitly states MODERATION.
Didn’t the prophet tell us the Covid shot is safe and effective?
Coming from a medical doctor, is typical. What isn't, is calling it a God-send.
The contents in section 89 were a product of that time. Some is good. Some is due to cultural practices: wheat for man, oats for horses etc is ridiculous, but was the cultural belief of that time. Everything you've said is what I've thought my whole adult life. So much of the religion is contemporary American culture kept alive by old men.
I used to smoke a lot of weed and I can tell you I lost all drive and motivation to get anything done. I don't think it is good for people like me who are healthy with a more temperate drive. I do believe it can help people calm down that normally have a high drive. To get them to relax. Depends on the person.
I used to smoke all day. I quit completely, then switched to micro-dosing medical marijuana. I now use, not abuse, and it helps me focus and have energy, along with some pain control.
The missionaries witnessed the difference when I was off of it, and spoke to the mission president on my behalf.
Coffee for ADHD and poverty kept me from renewing my recommend. The WoW is how I found the Church, and lost faith in the Church when I discovered they no longer believe it as written.
The relief from pain by using certain plants is not to be ignored...
@@amybaker1880
I am so sorry your situation has been damaged by the improper use/truncheon.
Please stay with the Gospel however you find it.
@@l7846 I will, thank you!
You can make non alcoholic beers. There are non alcoholic beers on the market today. They contain a alcohol level of 0.0 to 0.5. you would have to drink 10 non alcoholic beers to fill the effect of one alcoholic beer. as the mayor of nauvoo Joseph Smith gave a permit to a brother which allowed him to brew small beer. The name that they use for a non-alcoholic or one that contains very little alcohol in those days.
Do you think Brigham Youngs breweries and stills were making non-alcoholic drinks in early Utah? Probably not. Brigham was known to drink and more importantly sell alcohol. I'm not saying it was bad because of the alcohol, it was bad because he used tithing money to fund his enterprises. He was a hypocrite in many ways. This is just one of them.
Always wondered why the current w of w commandment as given by Brigham Young was never put in the D&C, if it that important a commandment to be included in the temple questions.
When the 12 Apostles and Prophet are in agreement, it's equal to scripture:
Doctrine and Covenants 68: 4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation."
An apostle has said "the gospel is not the word of wisdom, and the word of wisdom is not the gospel".
Joseph Sr was a brewer and baker.
I didn't know this....
Forgot about the "Mormon Tea" bush found in S. Utah and N. AZ which was used widely for making tea in Mormon households up until the early 20th century. A former park ranger member there showed me what the bush looked like.
I really would like for you to go into detail about how it was tied to the recommend interview.
I don't think it should be.
I like how he mentioned in another musing, that they asked if you take regular baths in the interview questions. 😂😂
I don’t drink coffee because of the cultural stigma and for that reason alone. I don’t believe there’s anything wrong with it because I don’t feel the Spirit withdraw from me when I drink my pre-workout. But I do feel the Spirit warns me against mind-altering substances like alcohol, marijuana, psychedelics, and even some prescription drugs. So I go with my feelings on that.
Coffee is boiled bean water, far healthier than most anything else you can buy in a store. It doesn’t change your state of mind and probably has some health benefits or at least doesn’t hurt you in moderation. It’s almost silly to call it unhealthy or to say we avoid it for that reason.
It is good for detoxing when used in an enema, not as much when used as a drink.
I'm just going to lie when I'm asked if I keep the WW. I figure if RMN can call the poke a Godsend, I can lie too.
Caffeine. Alcohol. Grains. Where are the comments about the two verses wherein the L'd says it is pleasing unto Him that/if animals are not eaten?
People barely know verse 13 exists. "it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used". I pointed this out to our RS president in casual conversation and she said, no that means don't "only" eat meat in winter, famine, etc. I said that makes no sense at all and she kept arguing lol.
Sshhh...don't give them any ideas! Next you'll have to be a vegetarian to get a temple recommend.
Apparently a comma was added after the word "used" in the 1921 edition. If true, that totally changes the meaning. Punctuation matters.
No Connor, we didn't all watch the R rated movies. Some of us believe and do what we believe.
These days tv is completely inappropriate and we don't watch that
@@loonytoones2614 Yep.
You sound so prideful.
@@kissinkatebarlow Prideful? How does that sound prideful. "But I love Holes" and sweet onions.
The “Rated R” Talk was SPECIFICALLY addressed to the Youth. Those who don’t fall within that designation are free to utilize the principles given as they see fit.
We know that Joseph as a young boy when offered alcohol before the doctor performed surgery on his leg turned it down. Now it maybe that beer was considered similar to wine. And wine was being used at the sacrament before they changed it to water. And the small amount being used would not intoxicate you. But one beer you will feel the change, not to intoxication but you would still feel the difference. So I am not so sure this is accurate information, and only the writer knows if it is true or not. Joseph was chosen because he was a pure vessel, and he knew he was to be an example, and knew the weakness of flesh and if the saints seen him drinking they would justify their drinking. I know this to be true because my kids seen our bishop and his wife going to the store after church and they questioned what they had been taught to not spend on Sunday.
You point out when Joseph chose not to drink. What about the reason he chose to drink?
Lol the postum remark. Mom and dad are now in the Temple Presidency.
It is good that we are asked to not consume these unhealthy things. Your health is extremely important. The bad thing is having the state enforce such "laws". No matter if it is a commandment or not, I would strongly suggest you strictly avoid caffeine. ALL soda drinks are very harmful to your body. Ideally, you should never drink anything other than pure H20.
Unless you have a medical condition it helps. Coffee relaxes me and helps my constant wondering mind slow down and focus on one thing at a time.
@@amybaker1880yes caffeine sure helps my migraines
Is therefore tea and coffee beans not also natural "herbs"?"
4 18 24
Brigham. Brigham, Brigham, Brigham. Ugh. I'm really beginning to give myself more grace about the distrust I felt about BY as I first met and learned of the Restoration.....
Priesthood..... WoW..... Polygamy.... Ugh.
You're using libertarian principles of liberty, of which I have a lot of love for, to argue against Church principles, doctrine, and the authority of the prophet. Using liberty to fight the gospel. Now that is a sneaky and impressive underhanded piece of sophistry. The Adversary is indeed a crafty fellow.
Casually dismissing the words of many prophets, as well as official policy, standards, and statements straight from the first presidency and quorum of the 12, in order to reach the conclusion that is essentially "because the restoration of all things (including the WoW) is ongoing and incomplete, I can drink alcoholic beer and still tell my bishop I follow the word of wisdom. Also the Word of Wisdom isn't a commandment" is a Hell of a hot take. And a wrong one. the opening line in the Church's WoW page is "God has revealed the Word of Wisdom as a commandment".
Sort out your own clear disbelief in the validity of modern revelation and sustaining prophets, before you try to tell us what the Commandments are.
Do you really believe he is being sneaky? You are locked up so tight in the shrinking box of approved truth that you missed the whole point: It's ok to think critically , and with reason about information that comes your way. Obviously there is more to be learned about the Word of Wisdom. You basically quoted the handbook of instructions on who should be excommunicated: anyone who questions church doctrine, the church, or authority of the leaders. It says nothing about someone going against Christ. it is all about the church image. In fact Christ was guilty of all three of those things in his time. To see the real reasons someone should be excommunicated see Alma 5:57,59,60; Alma6:3 and you will find all of that in our church today.
Also, the gospel is not the church. The gospel is liberty. It is the knowledge of how to be one with Christ. Boyak is not using liberty to fight the gospel. And I do not recall him telling us what the commandments are. Helaman 3 and 7 says there will be people who profess to be members of his church who end up persecuting the more humble meek ones. I think humble means teachable, truth seekers. Because they are the ones being trampled under feet, rent, and having backs turned to them for speaking up. (Helaman 7)
@@teinelaume Yeah. It does feel sneaky to me. All the critical thinking in the world, and somehow you guys have completely missed how the word of wisdom is a Commandment that has been instituted in steps instead of all at once. In order to understand the word of wisdom, all you need to do is look at it linearly, instead of bouncing around back and forth playing the the words of recent prophets off the words of older prophets. There's no contradiction if you read it in chronological order.
Look, I have no problem with people earnestly seeking for truth. Heck before I saw this video, I started drinking non-alcoholic beer, entirely because I came to the conclusion that it was encouraged in the word of wisdom. I did so in the spirit of trying to follow it better. I get it. I'm a lot closer to you than you realize.
But if you watch this video, it is plain as day that Conner does not believe in the authority of prophets to speak the will of God. Should he have the Liberty to believe so? Absolutely. But do I, a member of the same church, a church that has a massive block of its foundation set on the authority of prophets find that concerning? Yes. Do I really care for a perspective about my faith, from a person who is so casually flippant about disregarding clear prophetic counsel? No I don't.
We've already had prophets say not to drink alcohol, and that it's a commandment. The Gospel, and commandments aren't something that you need a legal degree in rules lawyering to get basically right. Is there a bit of Grey area with things like vanilla extract and rum cake? Perhaps. Does that mean we all run to the pub and grab pints because "it's not liquor"? No. Don't insult my intelligence.
You also need to remember that the Mormon church has a huge investment in big pharma so I am sure that had a bit to do with Nelson's decision. Nelson and the others are going to fight anything that works.
Do you ever eat meat? How about iced tea, or any other form of caffeine? Are mild barley drinks ok? Why did Joseph have tobacco and alcohol delivered to him the night before he died? Brigham was more interested in getting his Liquor delivered than the handcart's actual rescue. That BYU now sells Coke tells you everything you need to know that they are making it up as they go.
Joseph Smith drank occasional alcohol until the literal day he died. Art thou greater than he?
Amen. Instead of questioning whether we understand correctly, many think he was sinful and "bad". Barley drinks=beer.
He and his friends shared a bottle of wine minutes before he died.
@@andrewjoy08On the ground outside the window of Liberty Jail or while locked up?
I hate hard liquor, but a cold beer on a hot day! Oh yeah! Once in a blue moon! Haven't had one since 2005. Oh I'm a convert, if you didn't guess!!!
Time to get some beers 🍻
Wow. If you must use tobacco, make sure nobody sees you. It's not a sin if you're hiding it from other humans.
Right! I was like, wait, what? 😳
What about calomel (hot drink) and how its use/medical application led to Alvin Smith's (who Joseph admired and loved dearly) early, painful, and unfortunate death? This vital historical context is often missing from any discussion of the intended meaning behind "hot drinks", which had a specific meaning and use at the time the WoW was written/revealed.
Many teas currently available were not even available at the time of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, ie Green and White Tea. Back then, it was mainly black tea, orange pekoe; Earl Gray, etc. Certainly no herbals, with or without caffeine.
Listening with a nice glass of wine:) not brighamite lds, so no shame here! :)
😂