Відео

Im so sorry. I just can't.

Crying alongside you Michelle with your temple story. Also, I see you as a good hearted truth seeker. And I appreciate that.

Are you aware that in satanic ritual the sacrifice is disemboweled, the heart removed (while still beating) & the head is cut off? Do I believe pieces of the endowment are based in symbolism of the Light? Yes. Do I believe that one can be taught/tutored by the Spirit while attending the temple & participating in those ordinances? Absolutely. Is it possible that the original endowment incorporated true & beautiful symbolism that can point one to Christ? It is possible, IMO Is it wise to ignore the EXTREMELY DARK corruption that was incorporated somewhere along the way (and which I was taught in the temple, in a temple worker training, that we are still under those evil penalties, even tho they’ve been removed) & think they have no effect upon the individual &/or the church? NO It is a complex & nuanced situation, but to deny that such dark corruption has significant & profound effect on the church & the individual who participates is foolish, IMO.

I haven't watched yet. The temple has really soured for me. I can't see how Nelson can be a prophet anymore, so how could he be changing the ceremony to become just right or at least getting closer to anything correct? I turned in my recommend because I can't answer the temple questions to be good or right for a person to enter into it, much less the actual ceremonies in it. The last time I went when speaking and asking questions to what my friends thought, not one of them truly have any idea why they are there. They hadn't thought about any questions I had asked, as if we're all just mindless drones going through the temple motions. I was so tired of going with different people so I could talk about certain things while there, and never did anyone actually have answers. They actually never even think about anything remotely deep about what they are doing in there. Finally after praying and asking if President Nelson was NOT a prophet I received my answer. If he's not, why should I even go inside? The temples are currently all the great and spacious buildings. Jesus apostles taught in the temple, but they didn't make it secret or "strange". 1 Nephi 8:33

Jeremy is phenomenal! Holy smoke, Jeremy. The quotes of BY and HCK, their actions, their words! By their fruits ye shall know them!

And then we covenant with, not God!, but the Church.

What we have here is a Polligamist denier. Michelle, look at all the evidence, not just what JS said. Sooner or later you will have to come to grips with the truth.

Seems very clear that Brian is the one cherry picking.

Incredible! The Spirit hit me hard on the idiom explanation from Jer. 8:21 (along with the footnotes and other confirming scripture in the footnotes)! I had thought other ways but was unsettled on my way of thought (not racism) but this and the Spirit SETTLES it! I've never met Marvin but I love this brother in Christ! His story, his diligence in scripture study, his testimony is something to behold.

the BOM doesn't support the endowment as a legitimate covenant with God.

What date did Kathrine Phillips smith make this statement? how far way from her death did she make the statement?

I am only an hour in, and have watched episode 1 in this series, and am DISTURBED and DISGUSTED. So disappointing, dastardly, and deceiving--BY is not someone I would want to follow then nor now. I probably need to repent of my feelings. Yet, narcissistic is just the tip of the BY messy iceberg. Thanks for all you do, Michelle! What a mass of studying you have accomplished. 👏🏼

Spot on. I have searched the scriptures everywhere to find where anyone was denied the priesthood for any reason (other than simply personal rebellion or refusal to accept it). Nothing. Nada. Not even Noah's curse of Ham! Further, did you know that among the 27 charges that Thomas Jefferson laid against King George that there was one that Congress, because of Georgia and South Carolina ONLY, that was amended out of the Declaration of Independence before the unanimous vote of independence? It read "He has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the Christian king of Great Britain. Determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought and sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce: and that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the people upon whom he also obtruded them; thus paying off former crimes committed against the liberties of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the lives of another."

Are you still a member?

So much to think about. I do think the church has done a very poor job as caretakers of the "Endowment", mostly through, 'Well, here you go, figure it out for yourselves and don't blame us if you end up in a less than desireable kindgom because you couldn't make sense of it. But don't you dare talk to anyone about it outside of the temple, and don't bother trying to talk about it inside the temple either because we can't give you any answers because we are just as in the dark as you.' That is how it has felt to me. Sorry for my rant.

I have not believed that polygamy is a required eternal principle for almost 30 years. I regret that I haven't had conversations about that with my sisters over the years after I woke up to the incongruence of what we have often been told in our culture to expect about polygamy. I remember flatly telling my husband (a convert to the church as a teen) that I did not believe that polygamy was a requirement for eternity, and he was not sure how to react. I think he must have worried that I was on the road to apostasy. I could tell my own story about progressing toward gaining my authority in my family and church assignments, but certainly I have arrived at an attitude that the concept of eternal polygamy is offensive to both men and women. First to men, because they have been taught that because women are more righteous than men that there would be a shortage of men in the celestial kingdom. Poor men! Feeling that because of their “unrighteous” nature only a few of them would be exalted. It is offensive to women because it teaches that multiple women are equal to one man in an eternal partnership. I regret that we have not felt empowered as sisters, or as woman in the church generally, to talk about our feelings as we have experienced being powerless or invisible. Being able to verbalize these feelings without being viewed as rebellious is so healing. It is something many of us have felt.

I disagree with the idea stated by Corey that we need to “anchor ourselves in the BOM and the temple”….nope. We should anchor ourselves upon Jesus. The BOM points us into personal relationship with God. The temple is a mingle of pointing to God and man. (Why do we obey Satan’s command to cover ourselves and keep that covering on throughout? Why do we always need messengers to tell us God’s will? Why do woman take on a new name which is the name of bro. Brigham’s poly wives? Why do we covenant to give everything to the church? Yikes)

Mormonism has been destroying families since Joseph eloped with Emma, much to her father's disdain. She NEVER saw her family again after leaving NY. Joseph's libido caused Emma to become a widow at age 38.

Unity in marriage reminds me of, I think it was Truman Madsen, who tried to troll Joseph Fielding Smith by asking him if his marriage was a match made in heaven (with his wife standing right there). Smith said "No, it was not when we married, but it is now." Jeremy is awesome!　Jeremy's story, his journey, his understanding and wealth of knowledge are amazing！

After listening to this conversation in its entirety, I was struck by Cory's comments about his polygamist ancestors at the end and how the subject of polygamy could be replaced with the endowment ceremony. Here's an altered transcript: I've had Pioneer ancestry on both my mom's and my dad's family and and many *participated in the endowment ceremony*. In fact I went and added up the other day there's about 25 in my family line but I have felt a desire to repent of that and to teach my children to do better and differently so that it doesn't continue in our family and and even in some ways maybe we can make some small amends. I don't criticize any of those ancestors. Again, I think they were doing the best that they knew how to follow the Lord. They were making tremendous sacrifices to keep some of these laws. It was very heartbreaking. The false ideas are the problem and why repentance is is so much replacing these false ideas with truth because we can we can sacrifice so much and and yet be on the wrong page. We've got to to be based in truth. With that, I do appreciate Cory's work and thoughtfulness about the endowment ceremony, but for me it feels like it is time to let it go along with other false traditions introduced by Brigham Young and other early church leaders. As one who has faithfully attended the temple for over 25 years, it has been painful and challenging to realize and come to terms with that fact that I have believed and participated in many things that are false and/or corrupted.

Michele and Cory, this has been such a beautiful discussion that has opened my mind for new possibilities. I have attended the temple regularly all of my life and have had profound experiences and also a very dark one that subsequent changes in the temple will no longer allow to happen. The temple, with all of its confusion, has always been a sanctifying experience for me regardless of the many issues. This discussion has helped me to see more avenues of progression. Thank you. One thought, when we are asked to consecrate, it is not a blanket consecration without stipulation, it is “for” the building up of the Kingdom of God and the establishment of Zion. There is much that the church now does, such as donating to the purely satanically evil Bill Gates causes, that is not building or establishing God’s kingdom. Hence, I will not consecrate my time and talents for that. In fact, I am obligated to oppose it.

I have a friend who has the same problem- that he has had more trouble dealing with the actions and teaching of leadership. We keep working together pointing where things are right. We keep focusing on what is truth and trying to understand how to discern between truth and error- error being not necessarily intentional. I would suggest, especially with what I am hearing here, that you focus on your local "prophets." They are the ones who can receive guidance for you personally. And yes, they are prophets, for what is a prophet? Revelations 19 tells us that the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. A prophet is one who receives revelation. Cannot your bishop and stake president receive revelation for you? Are you not one if you receive revelation for yourself? Note that the revelation received must follow the stewardship granted. Thus, a bishop of a different ward cannot receive revelation for you. I believe that the closer the prophet to you, the better. You first, then husband, then bishop, and so on.

Thank you! Wow, this is amazing information! Thank you again and again!

I think you have missed an incredibly important point concerning the faith crisis of Sariah. How did Lehi comfort Sariah? You mentioned a number of ways of how Lehi comforted her in meekness, kindness, etc. But the biggest and most powerful way, short of the comfort she received upon the return of her sons, which confirmed the TESTIMONY of Lehi. I think the biggest way he comforted her was by testifying that the Lord would protect their sons and ensure their safe and successful return. That is why testimony meetings are so important. They bring comfort and confirmation of the actions of the Lord. I think Lehi did this for Sariah, and the Lord confirmed that very testimony when her sons returned.

Still listening…. Cory mentioned you can’t fake the Holy Ghost. I think you also can’t fake the first one either. You can’t memorize that first one because it’s something that has to be given to you personally. You can’t memorize someone else’s answer to that question.

I want to express my heartfelt thanks to Michelle for having me on her podcast and to all who took the time to listen and contribute to the discussion.

Why does Paul teach that the "old tabernacle", "an earthly sanctuary" is of the "first covenant"? Hebrews 9 1 Now the first covenant, in fact, had regulations for worship and its earthly sanctuary. … 8 The Holy Spirit is making clear that the way into the Holy Place had not yet appeared as long as the old tabernacle was standing. 9 This was a symbol for the time then present, when gifts and sacrifices were offered that could not perfect the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They served only for matters of food and drink and various ritual washings; they are external regulations imposed until the new order came.(the New Covenant - a new heart (the temple of the Holy Spirit) - Deut.30; Jer.31; Ezk.11&36)

This discussion gives so much food for thought. I’ve understood for quite a while now that all ordinances (including ordinations, I believe) we participate in are physical symbols of a spiritual process that is meant to happen in our individual hearts that binds us closer to Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Parents. They’re an invitation and reminder to prioritize that process. . Temples can be a physical place where some of that process happens, but it doesn’t have to be. Our bodies are temples- and in the temple there is a lot about our bodies, in the initiatory and before we enter the celestial room- those are blessings given specifically to our bodies at the temple so that we become living, walking, breathing connection points for God to work a personal covenant process within us wherever we are. I’m not sure that the temple ought to be where we have our most sacred experiences- I know for me those often happen in the one on one intimate settings that include just me and God, or “where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name” (often in our families or our marriage relationships).

Have you heard of the claim that Joseph Smith actually got the endowment originally from the Native American Indians? Their sweat lodge ceremony has a lot of similarities to our endowment. The claim I heard was that Joseph and Hyrum chose to adapt what they received from the Indians into a “language” more familiar to the Saints- which was masonry.

29:45 The Nauvoo temple was built after the manner of the Kirtland house to the Lord, with the addition of a basement with a baptistery. Neither building was designed with the intent or purpose of the endowment ceremony in mind. Per Joseph's and the main engineer/architet's statements, Joseph saw the Nauvoo temple in a vision and he made sure that the building matched. The two 'temples' had assembly halls on the 1st and 2nd floors, with classrooms and offices on the third floor. Let's say for a second that the endowment was from the Lord and given through Joseph. Do we really think that Joseph was building a house to the Lord that wouldn't even accommodate the "endowment"?

OUTSTANDING! Both sides of this discussion resonate with what the Spirit has been teaching me for over two decades. Thank you both for your honesty and open hearts, inspiration, and consecration (true consecration 🤍).

19:00 The temple teachings do seem to be ancient (Egyptian endowment, ancient corenation ceremonies, etc.). But May 4th & 5th 1842 endowment does not appear to have happened, those records were altered. We have no revelation for these the temple. And if there was an oridance both received and perform out said of the House the were building to the Lord (the Nauvoo temple) then it cotradicts the word of the Lord in section 124.40, "And verily I say unto you, let this house be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;". Not to mention what the Lord said in 124.28, "For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood." Here is a thought to consider, perhaps Brigham used Joseph's work on the books of Abraham and Joseph and constructed the modern endowment ceremony.

I spent my whole entire adult 30 years searching, pondering and praying for understanding on the temple worship. Looking for “hidden meanings” and proofs of the modern temple worship- satan is good at helping us find those things in order to justify what we are doing In 2016 when I finally found the truth about JS an polygamy it all Made sense. My next goal was to understand if the temple really was of God as done by the UT LDS.. the scriptures were no longer proving its validity, but its fallacy I want it to be true, but God has shown me and testified to me that what is done in LDS temples IS NOT OF HIM Until Christ comes again and himself shows us his pure doctrine, I will reject temple worship. The fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is plain and defined by him openly. We need to work daily on those basics and don’t need to complicate it more with secret oaths, tokens, signs- All that I hear in this, is trying to justify.

I have been struggling with some of the issues you mentioned. As I listened to this episode, it became clear to me that God wants me in the temple. I have felt a beautiful peace for the last several hours. This was my answer. Thank you.

16:40 Yes this is me being brief. 😂We are given types and shadows or truth. What is below corresponds with what is above. We are given allegories, parables, symbolism, liturgy, ritual, to point us toward God: He whom we should remember and acknowledge as the source of our salvation. We need to be careful not to exalt these things up into idols. Salvation comes from Christ, not a house made from hands, not from new works/ordinances, etc. Temple instruction is valuable and is all throughout the word in the scriptures because it helps to teach us about our relationship with God, our current condition in mortality, etc. all the way to our end goal of seeking Him and knocking. It is not because secretly the temple theology/ordinances as we know them were known and required amongst anciet peoples (These teachings are ancient as we can see evidence of them being had by the Egyptians, we see them in ancient coronation ceremonies, and other places too.). The temple liturgy illustrates what we need to do, rather than being the actual thing that we need to do. How many have thought/think that they have been "endowed"? Do they even know what that means and how that is recorded in scipture? The modern English word endowment (circa 16th century) comes from dowry, but that's not the biblical meaning. In the Bible there are different words used; Genesis 30.20 zabad/zebed to bestow a gift or endow an endowment; Exodus 20.16 mahar, to pay a dowry, to purchase; then in Greek we have enduo, Luke 24.49, meaning to clothe. This is about receiving the promised Spirit, being clothed by the Holy Spirit. In Hebrew you can find the same in the OT lebush/labash for a garment, robe, clothing / to clothe, be clothes, to put on. Here are some plain passages: Judges 6.34 But the Spirit of YHWH clothed Gideon... 1 Chronicles 12.18 And the Spirit clothed Amasai... 2 Chronicles 24.20 Now the Spirit of God clothed Zechariah... Luke 22.49 And look, I am sending you what my Father promised. But stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

This is an important conversation and I'd like Cory to come back and express more of what he's learned when you both have time.

I like how he explains the usefulness of the penalties in explaining why there was no 4th penalty. That Christ took upon himself our penalties. Good episode.

Thanks, Michelle, for this interesting discussion. I have many years of temple attendance, including when the penalties were part of the endowment. Cory has given this a lot more thought and research than I have, but for me it’s a stretch to see the Savior’s sacrifice in the penalties. With my limited understanding of scripture, the temple we worship (and we seem to worship the temple) has little in common with any of the Bible or Book of Mormon references to temples. In fact, bringing it back to polygamy, even Jacob scolds the polygamists in the temple!! How’d they get in there without a recommend!!?? In the Book of Mormon temples seems to disappear after the Savior came. I believe verses like Mark 14:58, “We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands,” are hinting at something very different. But I don’t have definitive answers so it’s good to hear contrasting ideas. And, unlike your Brian Hales-type interviews, this was pleasant because you were able to share meaningful questions and doubts, and Cory listened and was sympathetic.

There is a difference between going through the temple and having the temple go through you. Also, I believe that the question respecting the Law of Consecration asks us if we are "willing" to accept the Law of Consecration, not committing us to living it. Thus, if/when we ever get to the point where conditions are such that we can implement the law, we have committed to be willing to participate in it.

Wow you have gone way too far. You never knew me.

I am convinced that Joseph Smith was not the author of Mormon polygamy. I would love to follow a deep and thorough research into the true authors of the temple endowments. Was Joseph the author or was it Brigham’s creation. What about the keys of the priesthood? These are glaring questions now that we know the truth about Brigham and his buddies.

Thank you so much for this interview! I love Cory's books!

Sorry Michelle and Cory, I'm not buying what you're trying to sell in this episode. Christ only with no man standing between us.

If polygamy is an abomination, did Brigham Young desecrate the Temple of God by placing the abomination inside the temple? Descrating a temple had serious consequences anciently.

Cory, sincere question, president Nelson feels that the fullness of the priesthood has been restored with the completion of the Nauvoo temple this he stated as you might recall a few conferences back. What is your conviction on the matter as understood by what the Lord said would occur if the temple was completed? I gather from what you said, and correct me if I’m wrong, you mentioned the temple represents the lesser priesthood / law?

I just finished reading “The Exoneration of Emma, Joseph, and Hyrum” by Ronald Meldon Karren. He shows evidence that Joseph fought polygamy, the temple ceremony and the church were hijacked by Brigham and Heber. As a temple worker, I have been praying to know the truth. This came just at the time I needed it. I have had wonderful experiences in the temple, but also troubling experiences. I am still seeking to know if the temple is of God. If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God. I have not received an answer about the temple yet. I do know God answered my 60 years prayer that polygamy was not commanded of God. This gives me hope that I will receive the temple answer. Maybe it is like Cory said about Brigham’s fingerprints. It is what I make it.

So much of this resonates for me. Creation, Fall, Atonement- Cory, you are familiar with Jared Halverson’s work?

This was a great discussion of the Temple. Thank you both.

You really don't like anything that doesn't fit your narrative

1:56:04 As a Relief Society president once in Ward Council meeting I remember having to explain (it felt like fighting) why it was Jesus Christ should be the Wards Focus for the upcoming year. It seemed to me like an absolute no brainer as every member of all ages could participate in. Two stodgy High Priests were disgusted with my asserting that Christ is the center point of our faith, not the temple, which was their vote for the years focus. I believed that a greater focus on one’s relationship with Christ was much more important than the temple. Anyway, I agree fully with you both and I was actively pushing for this same perspective 12 years ago. I’m no longer a believer myself but I am completely in support of the gospel being taught and lived as you both see it than the bureaucratic and legalistic way many lead in the church. Personal relationship with Christ/God should trump any other.