[Enemy At the Gates] WW2 Snipers - Mosin vs Kar98k - "Pick One" Scenario Brief (Ep.7)
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- Опубліковано 16 лют 2024
- Pick One 🔴 Live Discussion 🔴 Feb 20th, 2024 Tue 16:00 (4pm) CST
Special Guest Ian McCollum @ForgottenWeapons
👉 [Option 1] Kar98k Zf39 sniper with a mix of 53x sniper (Match 196gr Ss.) and 10x (incendiary “observation” ammunition)
👉 [Option 2] Mosin Nagant PEM Sniper with suppressor (Bramit device) with a mix of 150x decreased velocity ammunition and 150x standard ammunition Yes we know it's not a PEM Sniper here, the PU sniper is a stand-in
VOTE HERE: www.youtube.com/@9HoleReviews...
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⚔️SCENARIO⚔️: Winter, 1943, Stalingrad, Russia
- Disclaimer at the end of this situation brief -
It’s winter 1943, and you’re a German sniper on the Eastern Front. You’ve been sent on a special military operation to deal with a Soviet sniper problem and you’ve been in the vicinity doing reconnaissance. Your target is a young Soviet sniper who has been heavily featured as a Soviet hero sniper in their propaganda.
While you can return to German lines, you have been spending weeks in the field at a time, deep behind russian lines to target and eliminate the enemy sniper problem.
So you carefully craft a trap in the department store to destroy him and his observer. Finally from your hide, you see a pair of snipers inbound and you slowly target them. You are able to eliminate one of them while they were displacing, and observed that the other sniper had withdrawn... so hours later, you went to assess your kill.
The deceased soviet sniper has a rifle that you had only heard of: the Mosin Nagant PEM sniper with a Bramit device on the muzzle. A device that decreases the noise signature of the rifle… and it matches what intelligence reports had been suggesting: that Soviet snipers were very difficult to locate, presumably they were using NKVD's field manufactured "decreased-velocity" loads for their Mosin snipers with suppressors as well.
You bring the enemy sniper’s rifle with you as a trophy or a useful tool as you begin to exfiltrate with a bandolier of ammunition that… the Soviet sniper didn’t need anymore, but at that moment you freeze. The rumble of a Soviet armored column echoes in the streets and as you look over, a shot rings out, barely misses you, and you drop to the ground.
Enemy sniper in the area!
You are now forced to slowly crawl out of the vicinity to safety and can only carry one rifle with associated ammunition back to safety:
👉 1, the Kar98k Zf39 sniper with a mix of 53x sniper (Match 196gr Ss.) and 10x (incendiary “observation” ammunition)
👉 2, the Mosin Nagant PEM Sniper with suppressor (Bramit device) with a mix of 150x decreased velocity ammunition and 150x standard ammunition
Though you survived the sniper shot, it will likely take you 24 hours of “slow” travel to safely return to German lines.
Both rifles appear to be serviceable, especially with the intelligence reports on the other soviet sniper eliminating german troops with such deadly accuracy, and that your rifle was spared from damage. Which option will you choose to survive and fight another day?
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Disclaimer: This fictional scenario is loosely based on historical events that serve to convey a tactical situation for discussion. This fictional setting, characters and historical examples of this scenario brief do not reflect the views or positions of any commenters and associated entities.
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Vote here for your pick! www.youtube.com/@9HoleReviews/community
Remember to comment on your choice!
It makes no sense to switch away from a rifle you already know
Definitely. The only thing the Mosin does have for it is the rapport. You can definitely blend in more with a Mosin shooting, and with an old suppressor, than you shooting your Kar98 and that giving you away. But having a rifle that you don't know all that well, is asking for trouble. Can you even fix it if it fails you, like your own rifle? Most likely not.
@guyman7776 Beyond that you're using an optic you don't know and have no time behind. If you're trying to get away better to try to slip away without having to shoot.
Without dope that subsonic suppressed rifle isn't much use to a sniper. You have to stick with the known rifle.
@@JackManiacky Conveniently, the dope is actually written right on the body of the Bramit...
The idea would be to bring the Russian rifle back for examination and perhaps develop your own suppressor. More of a long game look at things.
Take the suppressor off and pocket it. Take the rifle you know to actually use.
My exact thoughts, possibly take the ammo so the lower velocity could be researched. I don’t see throwing down the rifle you know you can hit with.
exactly
The correct answer
While we know to do this now thanks to UA-cam, your character in his 1943 knowledge does not know how to do this and is currently trying to exfil in the next 30 secs so you don't have the time to figure it out.
-Bottom line, while I agree with you, this option is off the table as a solution. You have the only two options outlined above.
@@9HoleReviews Awww.
This isn't even a question... regardless of the suppressor and downloaded ammo for the mosin, the German sniper does not have familiarity with the rifle, the scope, or the ammo. He knows his rifle, scope, and ammo and the intricacies of shooting it. Trying to "learn" those of a new rifle while being hunted is virtually suicide.
I think the idea is that taking the mosin will accelerate the German sniper development to match the Russians. "Russian snipers were very hard to locate "....kinda makes you need to catch up.
@@markmccoy2559 This would theoretically help the sniper program, sure. But as someone who needs to save their life right now, probably using that rifle, the hypothetical betterment of the sniper program is of little value. Can't improve the sniper program if you're dead.
The one i zero'd lol
Yea if I got 10 rounds off before dying I'd consider that successful
Obviously take the rifle you know and trust, not an unknown quantity.
Totally agree
This would be the same as asking Henry to leave his M24 rifle behind and picking up a suppressed PSG-1. Your trusted rifle provides you with the best chance of keeping you alive.
In a sniping situation, I can't imagine switching to a rifle you don't know the holds for.
The one you've got dope on. No question. It would be a more fair scenario if this hypothetical soldier had extensive experience with both rifles and knew their hold overs.
I was watching a Russian youtuber and he said the suppressor was at the time a state secret. Recon troops and partisans issued with it were ordered to prevent them falling into enemy hands. Taking these home as souvenir would’ve been a very serious offense.
During the big wars, sniping was done at a much closer range. A silencer would give you a dramatic advantage
But the rifle is an unknown. You wouldn't know it's zero, or any foibles it may have, whereas your k98 is your rifle. You know it's good, you know your holds, you trust it.
In any real war, the distance is very low.
If you take the distances in Ukraine, the majority of sniper engagements are between 50 and 200m. Those propaganda Hollywood stories about 2,5km hits, are absolutely bs. 1st this is not even relevant in percentage compared to the close range enhancements. 2nd those kind of shots are also just playing and you won't take on a high value target at 2,5km... This is ridiculous. 3rd who is going to confirm your shots at over 2km? Your spotter with a 30x60 scope at that distance? 😂😂😂😂
I mean yeah the US Americans shot on "targets" in Iraq at those distances...for fun, without any relevance to their mission.
This is an old WW2 suppressor. Iirc it uses rubber baffles which wear out rather fast. Also it would be a waste to NOT use it with conjunction with the subsonic ammo you would have, but then you don't have a clue where the gun hits with it. AND you don't have time to waste (or spare rubber baffles for that matter) to test it out.
Nah, in this scenario Mauser is what you know. I would stick with it.
@@lieutenantcoloneltanyavond8273 those baffles work great. Wipes tend to outperform many of the modern baffles we see today
@@donh1572 he did not said it work worse than modern baffles he said it would wear out fast and *you dont have spare rubber baffles to replace it even if you have you would not want to waste it to find hold over for sub sonic 7.62x54R **even if you use it to find hold over still need to fire a few shots and a gun shot sound is still there it harder to detect sure but maybe soviet sniper who familiar with the sound of it could found you
*you can swap the rubber baffles around to sqeeze a few suppressed shot out of it maybe little louder you doesn't know that
you are a german sniper even if you figure it out it still just a few shots
**you dont need to do that with K98 bc you know you gun is zeroed and you fimiliar with the bullet trajectory so you will make no sound signature untill you actually shot at someone and you can just relocate after every shot you are trained sniper you surely have
quick or hard to detect escape route for your position
so in conclusion i think K98 would be a better option thank you for coming to my ted talk
Take the suppressor off and keep the suppressor ammo as well. They are important military intelligence. Keep your Kar 98 that you know and have scope dope for.
There’s nothing to talk about. One rifle I’ve zeroed and handled maintenance on myself. The other is a total mystery. Doesn’t matter which might be incrementally better-I only have reps on the K98 in this scenario.
Assuming equal familiarity and controlling for the variable of service history, I like the PU or PEM rig slightly more.
"You went into battle with an unproven weapon?" - Remington.
Col. Patterson done messed up that day
One thing that might influence my pick is how I am dressed. If I'm in a blatant German uniform, then things get a little complicated. In this situation, with a tank rolling up on my position looking for me, my primary objective is now to fall back and possibly exfil. But back to my point, if it's possible, that sniper I eliminated might be wearing some kit I can throw on over my own to camoflage myself as a Soviet sniper and make it so that I can move more easily without the fear of getting spotted. If I can manage to do that, then I'll leave the 98 behind and leave with the mosin. After all, once I'm back behind friendly lines I can requisition another Kar98 before going back out. This is of course assuming that I would have the opportunity to don the uniform in the first place and didn't have to displace right away. The biggest factor in this scenario for me is the enemy armor, that basically makes it so that I can't effectively do my job without getting taken out. My pick is the mosin, purely for the possibility of disguising myself and safely extracting myself from the area.
Honestly this is a completley unacknolwedged fact of the scenario, you don't need to shoot in order to escape.
A little war crime.
Perfectly normal, perfectly healthy behavior . . .
@@topbreak38 Geneva was not implemented yet, no? Plus, if you're just escaping the front without being apprehended and not killing anyone, there are worse things to do.
@@V3RTIGO222 the first Geneva Convention was in 1864 (long before WWII, no?) and being executed as a spy for wearing an enemy uniform was a thing long before Geneva.
@@topbreak38 No need to be rude, I didn't realize the initial accord was devised that long ago. As for executing or mistreating snipers, you can either be a German sniper or disguised as a Russian sniper... If you get seen, let alone caught, you are more certainly going to have more issues as a German sniper.
Upon further investigation, the Rome Statuate to address prosecution to of individuals carrying out attacks in enemy uniform is addressed, which was adopted in the 1990s. In other words, using an enemy uniform to evade capture an explicitly not carry out attacks is not a warcrime.
Regardless, being captured or seen or executed is a far more immediate threat to the possible prosecution by a wartime court.
Thing is, whilst the Mosin would be a cool trophy and maybe even a nice tool to have; you still need to extract.
I have to assume a German sniper knows his German rifle. I wouldn’t risk using unfamiliar kit when your life depends on it.
I’m goin mosin, after watching robski make impromptu subsonic field ammo was just too cool for school!
Interestingly, if memory serves me right, the Allerberger mentioned in the vid actually started sniping with a captured Mosin. He wasn't initially deployed as a sniper but took up the captured rifle and impressed superiors enough for a trip to sniper school.
Correct he was a machine gunner if i remember correctly but while he was recovering from wounds sustained in battle , he picked up a mosin sniper from a weapons dump and trained with it impressing his superior officer thus starting his sniper career
I've been waiting for another of these videos for two years, I am SUPER EXCITED.
Major flaw with this winter scenario, is the rubber wipes in the Bramit suppressor are only good for about 20 shots in winter conditions.
There isn't enough to go against the rifle "we" as the scenario soldier have familiarity with to change for it.
Mosin since "I'm" in enemy territory, the notion is that the sound of firing the Mosin should at least sound friendly, AND it's more difficult to locate after the firing.
No real difference in how they sound.
Different round different sound. @@sinisterthoughts2896
I'd argue that on the eastern front with the heavy artillery and tank fire almost constanly, it's so loud that nobody can distinguish between "enemy and friendly" rifle fire sound anyways. And due to the noiselevel i would also argue that the supressor is of little advantage in the given scenario.
I think getting away is the main target, and for that you won't fire much. But if you do, 1 shot per position. And for that, ones own zeroed optic is more important than even the familiarity of the rifle itself i think.
When you have to make a shot and don't know the zero or the handling of the scope, what is it good for...
And finding out zero with one shot per position or trying to zero while being hunted is the worst idea ever.
true. however, even if i do miss the first couple of shots and that's a big if, a seasoned sniper will know how to make adjustments either on the scope or the angle. and when escape successfully, the weapon can be studied by our own intelligence agency or weapons experts.@@nirfz
then still the mosin since it's a new enemy weapon. bring it back to study is also a win.@@sinisterthoughts2896
I'm going with the Mosin, because of it's optic. I hate the ZF scopes. Additionally, I don't want to have to use sound masking, or terrain features to obfuscate my location while on the move behind lines.
If i was in WW2 with my scoped 1903 and came across a PRS competition 6.5 Creedmoor bold gun , supressed, with a case of handloads and a Nightforce ATACR with a TREMOR 3 reticle.... in this senario, i would still grab MY gun, the gun i know.
just to say. The German special troops did have supressors on K98. Made by Mauser especially for the Brandeburger's. There are pictures around. I've the K98 for the supressor, but unfortunately not the supressor. It was based on the Gewehrgranatgerät base with a supressor on top, instead of the grenade barrel.
Love these videos so much more than your typical shooting to range ones. Your g3 2 parter was the best!
If you can remove the suppressor to take it back for R&D and keep the rifle you know, it would make sense to do that. Given the current circumstances, you probably don't want to take any shots so just taking the Russian package back as is for exploitation makes sense as well. In the end, I would probably take the Russian packege back for it's intelligence/weapons development value. If you had to take a shot the suppressor and subsonic ammo would be invaluable given the situation even if you weren't intimately familiar with the rifle. It's a bolt action rifle, you could probably figure it out pretty quick.
To be fair, as a german sniper, would you be able to tell the difference between the sub loads and the supers? Also know the holds and zero for the unfamiliar rifle and ammo?
@@sinisterthoughts2896 Not sure if there would be markings to distinguish, but either way the suppressor will make a difference. My decision is mostly based on the intelligence/ weapons development value of the weapons. That may serve your country much more than smoking a few more Russians. Given the circumstances and just how out numbered you are now as well as the disparity in force (presence of armor). I would be purely in E&E mode and try to avoid taking any shots at all. A snipers trade craft is at least as important as their marksmanship skills. In this situation I am going to try to remain unseen, take no shots, move as quickly as prudence allows.
Germans had their own suppressors tho... Nothing new to see in Bramit tbh.
@@lieutenantcoloneltanyavond8273 The German suppressor was a copy of the Bramit, which at this point was still a closely guarded secret. Not because it was the best suppressor, but because it was cheap and effective and the Germans were not aware it was in extensive use.
@@johnyricco1220 Well, how exactly Germans can not be aware it was in extensive use? You can not anything in a front lines for more then couple of month, that would not be known to other side in details.
I'm glad you mentioned Sepp Allerberger. In his memoirs he detailed some unfortunate things that happened to German snipers who were captured with Mosin sniper rifles. Stalingrad being a particularly brutal battle, our guy might be aware of the danger of being caught behind enemy lines with a Soviet rifle. As much as I'd want to take the Mosin, I'm going to keep the Kar98 and try to get back. Even if I'm captured I stand a much better chance of survival with my own rifle.
In this scenario I think the obvious choice for a sniper would be to keep his own rifle after all picking up a rifle that you don't know important information such as what it is currently zeroed at and other various important characteristics of the rifle like wear on the barrel etc. Also uses different ammo which will of course affect where and how you shot it and uses a different scope thus you're clearly not likely to be as proficient with this alternative rifle. Additionally with the unfamiliar muzzle device, scope and other different unfamiliar parts you're probably going to be less proficient at maintaining the rifle as well. On top of all this the gun could have issues like the glass in the optic could have broken from being dropped or the optic could be dirty preventing its use, also maybe the rifle was having cycling issues due to being dirty. There are a number of additional real world risks from picking up a rifle off the ground assuming you might need to use it soon after picking it up before you can check for any issues.
Chosin Reservoir Scenario
M1 Garand vs PPSh-41 (or PPS-43)
Your position has been overrun by multiple waves of Chinese troops. You’re the lone survivor. You must make it back to friendly lines, avoiding the enemy at all costs.. If you do run into the enemy, do you want stoppin’ powah or volume?
Not even fair, maybe if you make it an M2 carbine.
Clint Smith enters the chat...
I remove the suppressor if possible for study when I return to my lines, however, I retain my service rifle for the trip out as I am more familiar with it both in terms of manual of arms as well as ballistic performance.
I'd drop the 98k and keep the Mosin* for its strategic value. In this scenario, your 1st priority is to break contact and make it back to friendly lines, so the less you have to shoot the better. Knowing the quirks of your 98k isn't as much of a factor, especially if all you need is a few close shots to keep people's heads down; lethality is no longer the goal here, survival is. The suppressor could help to also not draw undue attention, but its main value is as a strategic asset - getting it back to reverse engineer it could prove far more valuable than simply winning a sniper duel.
*If I've got time, I'd detach the suppressor and bring it with me and keep the 98k. The most important thing is getting the suppressor back
Something to keep în mind, a lot of german snipers were very well familiarized with the mosin as the german sniper program at the beginning of the war was underdeveloped. Many german snipers used mosins
But they didn’t have subsonic ammo to train on, therefore negating the suppressor.
Is there source material to support this? I'd think the K98s would be better rifles.
@@andrewstoll4548 Sepp Allerberger's book is one source, I am sure more exist.
Nice stream, nice T-shirt. Ever been to Romania?
I had the opportunity to compare my cousin's Mosin Nagant PE with my KAR98k with ZEISS Zielsechs. Both are very good rifles, but if I had to choose just one, I always go for the KAR98k. The ZEISS with its 6x magnification and the clarity of the scope image is always a much better choice than the PE scope in my view.
Is the ammo weight something to consider as well? Rough calculation, GRM load is 4.5 lbs vs RUS load at 17 lbs. Thoughts?
Mosin because it is still extremely effective and has the bonus of being intel for the guys back at the line. Mostly the suppressor because it can be reverse engineered. Now back at the line either get another k98k sniper or keep running the pem.
Kar 98k. For ALL Reasons avaible. I am trained and experienced on it, i can trust it, i know exactly the Zero.
On your rifle yes. Not on everyone.
The scope is also made by Zeiss (Hensoldt) - much brighter and clearer glass
Please explain to me how trained you are on this rifle. Where did you use this rifle so that you can speak of a qus formation? I am German and was lucky enough to be able to get to know this rifle and its features. Where did you find out about that?
@@Winnie_Grett You trained for on the sniper version or just a K98k? He's speaking for/as the German sniper in this scenario, not for himself. Verstehen?
@@karlheinzvonkroemann2217 was macht das für einen wesentlichen Unterschied? Ja, ich verstehe dich sehr gut.
“The previous owner died suddenly” 😂
Considering the reputation this sniper had I am going to assume that his rifle is likely going to be in good condition as well as the munitions he carried. The Drop might have however made it so that the zero on the rifle is gone, so that is a potential concern. However seeing I am behind enemy lines and chances are because 1 got away the enemy is likely to be informed about my presence in the area. With these factors in mind I would take the mosin rifle and ammo, I will have more ammo available which is not likely going to make the biggest difference, but it is nice to have and I am more likely to acquire more in this area. Also using this rifle I could confuse the enemy when I am shooting as they might not realize it is one of their own rifles being used against them, a small potential edge. Finally as this is a device that we only heard rumours about, it would be of utmost interest to command and intelligence services so returning with it would be of overall value.
Nice emblem on that T-shit . Greeting from Romania !
As everyone is stating below; sticking with the equipment you know would be paramount.
Not only do you know the rifle to be reliable, but you also understand its ballistics implicitly. Not only does the 7.62X54R round behave slightly differently than 8mm Mauser, in this scenario, you would have no training and understanding of just how much your aim would need to change using the reduced capacity loads and suppressor.
This means that if you needed to take a shot on your way to ex-fil, it would likely miss stealing away those precious seconds you need to stay alive.
Nice T-shirt. I was born near that Romanian airport, Kogalniceanu.
Henry plays the what if game
keep what you know and remove the suppressor to evaluate in your own lines
I'm going with the Mauser, not only because I would have trained with it and known everything about the rifle, but because I could take the Bramit Device off the Mosin Nagant, stow it in a pocket and bring it back for intelligence, if I'm not in the position to do that then too bad, I'm keeping the rifle I trained with, not an unknown tool with subsonic ammo I haven't used before messing up any shots I may need to take.
🤔Great Video 💯💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
The one with the best optic
yooooo the classic bolty rivalry
I would presume that now faced with a survival escape using the rifle that you zeroed, trained on, and have scored your kills with would be the smartest route to take. On top of the fact the Mauser is a more compact package and would offer a slight upper hand in an urban environment.
Should you be taking any rifle at that point or just focus on running without any encumbrance? If another sniper team has just nearly missed me, my skill is deficient, and my luck is running out. If I felt very confident I could get away, and if I was a team player, I'd take the mosin and try not to have to use it.
I think in the circumstance you need to lean on the equipment you know well over something that is shiny and new. The quieter Mosin might be very useful for getting back to friendly lines if I make contact, but I'm also a highly trained sniper, and I know no shot, is much quieter than a suppressed shot.
Take the Moisin, no reson to use it on the exfil unless absolutely necessary as being unseen going in and out would be secind nature to an experienced sniper and laying low and not firing at all would be preferable to taking on tanks with supporting infantry of unknown numbers in the area.
Had I been in that situation, I expect that I would stick with what I knew, not take something I didn't know.
I’d like to see a SMG series where you shoot a timed course similar to Speedway but with closer targets, still pushing out to 200-250m.
Both Josh and Henry shoot the course.
I’ve always been interested in the actual effective range of the PPSh-41, MP-40, M1A1 Thompson or M3 Grease Gun, Beretta 38A, S1-100…
How would Czech soldiers fair defending mountain passes in the Sudetenland with a ZK-383? (Had Munich not happened)
I’m taking that 91/30 PEM with Brahmin, a suppressor is a game changer as detection is way less and alone behind enemy lines with someone hunting me? Stealth is key. Been in same situation in Philippines and the suppressor on a bolt action can and will save your life when you don’t have a choice but to open fire
I learned that one of your great heroes of the Vietnam War, Charles Mauwhinney, has died.
Marines used Winchesters in Vietnam, later came Remington M40,
I still have a Winchester used by Air Force snipers in the 80s,
hello from Italy.
Chuck Mawhinny passed away?!
@@brushwolf yes 😥🙏
@@tommygi7505 Wow. I heard it from you first.
Definitely taking the rifle I’ve trained with, qualified on, and taken lives with in combat over a war trophy that I’ve never fired.
The "which would you pick" factor is completely undermined by the pressure of the situation. Only correct answer is the K98 that you already have as opposed to the suppressor, ammo, holds of a completely unfamiliar weapon.
Better scenario would be if you had the leisure of grabbing something from the armory. Plenty of German snipers did actually use captured 91/30 sniper rifles, but they did so after having some time to familiarize and zero the weapon.
I would keep using the Kar98k because of familiarity but I would take that suppressor with me in case I can figure out a way to attach it to my Kar98k.
Can you guys please do a 500 yard practical accuracy on the S&W M&P sport 1 or 2.
If I had just picked up an enemy weapon, sniper or not if I didn't have a chance to shoot it prior given a choice I would stick to the weapon I know and trust until I had a chance to shoot the enemies weapon
The question to me is as always. What is the worst scenario? If you have to stay on enemies territory for longer period of time and not only 2 days, and there aren't many troops, keep your rifle.
If you have only 30 rounds left and it's 3 weeks to go, definitely the other rifle, when ammunition is available.
I’ll take the one with the chopped up barrel, with rails screwed in to the wood and a zukhov stock.
I think the largest part of the equation for me would be the optics. I don't have great vision and may be spending a lot of time looking through one of these scopes.
Poor vision? I feel your pain but we would not be picked as snipers anyway because of it
If iam a highly trained German sniper iam using what I’ve trained with for years, I think the premise of this question is,does the sound device give you a big enough advantage to ditch what you know and are used to which is a superior rifle and scope in the k98? The answer is easy, no it’s not worth it a rifle is just a rifle unless it’s my rifle, one that I’ve used for a very long time and has always brought me back from the Soviet hordes.
When laid out like that, I'm going to keep the rifle and ammo that I have DOPE for.
Considering the scenario that I may have to shoot to get out, I take the Kar98k that I brought with me. As great as it would be to take the trophy home, and bring back an intelligence piece for the suppressor, the Kar98k that I'm familiar with is the best option to accurately fire. I feel this is pretty much a no brainer.
I’d choose the rifle I’d already been using in this scenario, unless I’d been sent specifically on a mission to retrieve one of those Mosin rifles. If I couldn’t carry the whole Mosin, I’d do my best to damage it so it couldn’t be used again and then slither away
While I normally would not defer from my issued weapon given the scenero and time period I would take the Mosin. More ammunition and the option for surpressed I think are worth the trade off. Not to mention if I survive this encounter the knowledge to be gained from actually having the soviets technology I think would be extremely beneficial.
I'd go with the Mosin. Mostly because thats what *I'M* familiar with (i have a garbage rod). But also more ammo is very nice, even if it weighs half a ton.
Video started off with a Midway ad with a strangely familiar fellow in it...
My answer would be: Keeping the familiar rifle. (and take the device with me to bring it back for investigation or copying)
Reasoning: From the books i read and the little i talked to someone who went through sniper training, the most important thing for a sniper is to not be found.
And that's without even firing a shot. So i would argue that in the given scenario, the amount of ammo is of no concern.
Another thing, i at least remember reading as very important is to not fire more than 1 time from the same position for the same reason. (to not be found due to risking muzzle fire to be seen or if quiet enough people who were alarmed by the first shot now listening closely and watching)
The mentioned Sepp Allerberger even has a drastic story (+ photo) about that in the book and Carlos Hathcock used that rule too. (apart from one occasion described in the book about him)
So in that regard the supresor isn't going to change the game that much: with only 1 shot and people not being prepared/alarmed to listen carefully.
And then we have to take into account that this is taking place "at the front". That would mean the supressor is even less important as the eastern front was heavily dominated by *loud* artillery and tank fire.
I would argue, so loud, that nobody can pinpoint a single rifleshot among all the noise anyways. No matter if that single shot is slightly supressed or not.
I have not handled either of the scopes, but i would also think that the almost non existing advantage the supressor gives, is easily countered by the unfamiliarity of the scope. What's the zero, how do i operate it...
Things you know of your own rifle.
While I agree the Mosin is the better sniper due to its better scope and overall accuracy, I believe the German soldier should keep his own rifle because he's familiar with it.
Better scope and accuracy? I'll give it that the Russian scope was more easily adjusted but magnification and field of view goes to the German scope hands down.
The K98K Mauser....My father brought one back from the ETO, Hunted Muly Deer with it...
I can't answer, just the prospect might turn me into a German sniper and I am now frozen with fear, lol
It all depends on if I'm a German or Russian, I will take the rifle that I am familiar with.
But if it was me there, I'd Grab the Mosin, I have one that shoots exceptionally well,(so I'm more familiar with it) and I have only owned one Mauser a 33/40, and it was horrendous to shoot, very loud and uncomfortable to shoot.
SHTF scenario I've grown up using a model 94 Winchester 30 wcf, so that is my go to rifle. (60 +)
Grab it and my Lee loader and go.
Ive fired a kahr 98 and had to massage my jaw for a couple of days after holding my face against the stock (obviously) in the wrong way.
Never had the chance to shoot a mosin.
However, i suppose if i were able to weigh the pros and cons and didnt think my superiors would have me shot for taking the mosin..id grab that.
But having trained with the kahr (and needing to make a quick decision) i would certainly have just tossed the mosin and crawled out with my familiar rifle.
Gonna have to say kahr 98 with very little time to pick a weapon and bugger on outta there.
Theres always a chance you get a gun off of your enemy that has issues that are only known to the guy who doesnt need it anymore and you wind up running off with something that will get you in the same place as that guy.
I say go with the gun you know unless youve had time to practice on captured weapons of the enemy.
The legendary barret would be awesome until youre in a hurry and find out too late that you never learned how to use it.
I would say the K98K because 1. Length and 2. Training/familiarization because you know, holds, in's and out's of your rifle and it is probably built to you exact personal specifications.
Is combat expected during excfil? If not then I guess the mosin for research. Could always get another Kar back behind friendly lines.
Given that we have already completed part of our mission, which is counter-observation and suppression of enemy sniper forces (we have eliminated one enemy sniper already), at this point I'd leave with the Mosin. My objective, with a hidden sniper in the area, as well as being caught out in the open, would be primarily to escape the area and not necessarily locate and eliminate the enemy, following which we can start exfiltrating back to friendly forces. The suppressed rifle isn't JUST a trophy, but a potential intelligence break, and capturing one might allow your fellow snipers to start developing similar scratch-built counterparts even in the field for your own rifles. Since the mission is now primarily one of survival and disengaging from the enemy I think the tradeoff of having to carry a rifle with unknown zeroing is worth making.
Mauser, Im very familiar with it (both in this scenario and irl, altho Ive owned both rifles before) and it has a much better trigger. I know how it shoots and how the scope is dialed in for me as the shooter whereas the mosin has a lot of unknown variables to account for such as; scope zero, ballistics of the sub-charged cartage, ergonomics, and ammo availability. Any ammo I get for the mosin I have to first off scrounge and second off will be a regular load making the scope zero for the low velocity rounds moot. Also the silencer doesnt even matter if im in theory a good sniper but a good trigger sure does
This really comes down to whether you value your own life more... Take the KAR98 you are familiar with...
Or whether you do the best thing for "the cause" and capture enemy technology (the suppressor and ammo).
I think as an elite sniper, i would be able to handle the unfamiliar bolt action rifle and scope well enough to justify the risk involved in capturing this tech.
Having the Soviet rifle may even be advantageous to partially conceal your identity from the Soviets as you exfil.
If it was a scoped SVT-40, and you already had extensive experience with scoped SVT-40s, switching might almost make sense. Without some kind of guaranteed advantage, I can't imagine switching from the rifle you know.
You would have to tell me which year and which country each rifle was manufactured in before I could choose.
I’d go for the Mosin, only because I’ve put hundreds of rounds through them. I have an updated PU sniper build that’s really fun.
It doesn't matter if you're captured with ether sniper rifle you're going to be shot since snipers rarly if ever because prisoners in possession of a sniper rifle or other sniper gear. Even the German snipers patch got you shot. (I own both rifles) I would take the Mosin because of the ammo lay out.
While having the extra ammo would be nice, but being on a platform you haven’t used is not the best. Stick with the K98k and maybe pocket some of the x54R ammo as a backup. Maybe hide the Mosin, so you could find it if the line changes later.
As familiar as you are with the Kar98, I say take the Mosin with a potential Wunderwaffen.
As a German sniper/observer I think I would be inclined to take the Moisin Nagant due to the intelligence that could be gathered from it. As a sniper I could always get another Kar 98 when I get back behind my own lines.
The rifle I'm most used to using😊👍🏻👍🏻
Honest question: Are we going to assume that both optics are "magically" zeroed to your shooting tendencies? Because if an optic is zeroed to another person, point of impact could vary significantly at distance, resulting in missed shots that could very much reveal your position and get you un-alived.
In that immediate situation, i stick with what i know. An unfamiliar rifle is going to get me killed, even if it does have a suppressor.
Now, if youre just asking which i would choose if i knew the zero on both rifles and was familiar with both actions and their operation, then I'd take the Mosin. You have a way to minimize your sound and since youre behind enemy lines, there are more chances to resupply off of any enemies you take out on your way back.
The Mosin, because of its suppressor and specialized ammunition. With those two combined, if I had to take a shot, it would better ensure my survival as I make my way back. Not only that, would give me and my side data for which we can use to develop our own.
And because it's not your weapon and hasn't been zeroed by you that shot you took missed by several inches as did any follow up shots and you gave away your position. Bang! Your dead
Gotta roll with the rifle I know in that situation.
As someone who shoots PRS, you go with the rifle you already know, the optic you already know, as well as the ammo you already know. You nave no idea what the drop is on the 7.62x54R ammo, nor do you know how the windage hold is impacted by the rifling in the barrel. You don't know any of your approximate holds for elevation on the Mosin scope. You don't know how functional, or non-functional that ammo is due to how it was kept prior to your finding of it. Taking the Mosin is a gamble not worth it in all respects.
The more I think about it, the harder it is.
My first reaction was "better keep the rifle I know", with the caveat that I would just take a a few subsonic ammo and the can for Intel.
But at the same time, for an exfiltration, having a suppressed rifle could be a big help...
As for knowing the rifle, someone skilled enough to be tasked with hunting the top Russian sniper won't have too much difficulties figuring out how to operate a Mosin. He would probably already have handled one at some point, and the scopes have the same reticle and zoom
I think I'd go with the 91/30. Trying to escape, I won't need to take a shot at 500m, but I may need to take out a sentry within 100m
Though I wouldn't bother picking up ALL the ammo. 300rnds of 7,62x54r, when I need to be fast and quiet? No thanks. 50-60 subsonic and 2-3 clips of regular will do fine
I'd only take the mosins ammo to fill it with TNT back at base and leave it on the front next time :P
The one i can reliably hit with: Mauser. No question.
The only thing going for Mosin in thos scenario is suppressor and subs, but i wouldn't know the holds anyway - and i don't have time for testing. Which makes it pretty much worthless. Also, i'm plenty sure Bramits use rubber wipes which gives them limited lifespan, large portion of which might already be used up.
The choice as I see it, is wether the capture of the enemy rifle and subsequent intelligence is worth the risk of an unfamiliar weapon system in a combat zone.
I would choose the Mosin, any prolonged engagement would most likely render me inoperable, regardless of rifle. Enemy intelligence is invaluable.
Rifle you know. I have no idea what ammo the mosin is zeroed for and I don't know the dope for the reduced power loads. E&E is going to be the best course at this point.
A soldier from that time would keep his issued and known rifle. From a practical standpoint id take the pm. Close engagement distances in a city, sound suppression is very important here and evasion is your main focus. Added bonus is the tech intel. Would be a much more difficult decision if the only available ammo was subsonic and a sniper is hunting you. Then your issued rifle would be only choice if engagement was nearly unavoidable. Your main focus is evasion without detection in an urban environment.
One commenter mentioned stealing soviet gear to blend in. That would be a good idea if possible.