🔴[ Enemy At the Gates] WW2 Snipers 🔴 Pick One Mosin vs Kar98k (Ep. 7)
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
- Get Entered to WIN this Mosin Nagant M91/30 PU!
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DEADLINE to ENTER is 02/23/24 @ 11:59pm (PST).
Pick One 🔴 Live Discussion 🔴 Feb 20th, 2024 Tue 16:00 (4pm) CST
Special Guest Ian McCollum @ForgottenWeapons
👉 [Option 1] Kar98k Zf39 sniper with a mix of 53x sniper (Match 196gr Ss.) and 10x (incendiary “observation” ammunition)
👉 [Option 2] Mosin Nagant PEM Sniper with suppressor (Bramit device) with a mix of 150x decreased velocity ammunition and 150x standard ammunition Yes we know it's not a PEM Sniper here, the PU sniper is a stand-in
VOTE HERE: www.youtube.co...
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⚔️SCENARIO⚔️: Winter, 1943, Stalingrad, Russia
Disclaimer at the end of this situation brief -
It’s winter 1943, and you’re a German sniper on the Eastern Front. You’ve been sent on a special military operation to deal with a Soviet sniper problem and you’ve been in the vicinity doing reconnaissance. Your target is a young Soviet sniper who has been heavily featured as a Soviet hero sniper in their propaganda.
While you can return to German lines, you have been spending weeks in the field at a time, deep behind russian lines to target and eliminate the enemy sniper problem.
So you carefully craft a trap in the department store to destroy him and his observer. Finally from your hide, you see a pair of snipers inbound and you slowly target them. You are able to eliminate one of them while they were displacing, and observed that the other sniper had withdrawn... so hours later, you went to assess your kill.
The deceased soviet sniper has a rifle that you had only heard of: the Mosin Nagant PEM sniper with a Bramit device on the muzzle. A device that decreases the noise signature of the rifle… and it matches what intelligence reports had been suggesting: that Soviet snipers were very difficult to locate, presumably they were using NKVD's field manufactured "decreased-velocity" loads for their Mosin snipers with suppressors as well.
You bring the enemy sniper’s rifle with you as a trophy or a useful tool as you begin to exfiltrate with a bandolier of ammunition that… the Soviet sniper didn’t need anymore, but at that moment you freeze. The rumble of a Soviet armored column echoes in the streets and as you look over, a shot rings out, barely misses you, and you drop to the ground.
Enemy sniper in the area!
You are now forced to slowly crawl out of the vicinity to safety and can only carry one rifle with associated ammunition back to safety:
👉 1, the Kar98k Zf39 sniper with a mix of 53x sniper (Match 196gr Ss.) and 10x (incendiary “observation” ammunition)
👉 2, the Mosin Nagant PEM Sniper with suppressor (Bramit device) with a mix of 150x decreased velocity ammunition and 150x standard ammunition
Though you survived the sniper shot, it will likely take you 24 hours of “slow” travel to safely return to German lines.
Both rifles appear to be serviceable, especially with the intelligence reports on the other soviet sniper eliminating german troops with such deadly accuracy, and that your rifle was spared from damage. Which option will you choose to survive and fight another day?
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Disclaimer: This fictional scenario is loosely based on historical events that serve to convey a tactical situation for discussion. This fictional setting, characters and historical examples of this scenario brief do not reflect the views or positions of any commenters and associated entities.
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4:58 video starts
8:42 discussion starts
You cannot detach the suppressor because you are a German soldier seeing it for the first time and trying to evade in the next 30 secs.
About that crocodile thing: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barmaley_Fountain
MACVSOG Pick one in the future? Multiple Choice? CAR15, SKS, Chopped RPD, AK etc
Korean War: M1 Garand vs PPSh-41
@@dariuswilliams7509 Stoner 63 vs RPD
Anyone familiar with a bayonet attachment would understand how to make off with the suppressor. It's not that different.
Could be worth doing a French resistance/partisan themed Pick One because your weapon choice could be widened to make it more difficult to choose.
It's idiocy to drop your own weapon for a battlefield pickup unless your own weapon is no longer functional (whether you have run out of ammo or it is broken).
However, carrying an enemy weapon type on a mission behind enemy lines is beneficial for a variety of reasons, including sound and silhouette.
Henry, when you want to address you Swedish BAR or m/94-14 carbine 6.5 addition let me know. We should get together when you want to do the Stoner 63A, and VZ52/57 and other guns.
Swedish bar, Stoner 63, seems like the type of person u want to get together with.
Seem like a fun person to hang out with.
The K98k seems like the much better option just because you know how its zeroed, you know which ammo its zeroed to, you can get resupplied that ammo, you know how the gun + scope works and is cleaned, its shorter, handier, any friendlies are less likely to miss-identify you as an enemy, and most importantly, enemy weapon pick ups are not something anyone does outside of heavy weapon systems.
Both Germans and the Soviets were making heavy use of captured enemy firearms of all kinds (most often LMGs, SMGs and semi-auto rifles). In fact in early war German snipers used exclusively captured scoped Mosins because Germans didn't have their own scoped weapons nor marksmen/snipers in ToE at all, sniper training and sniper post in infantry battalions was only introduced after months of encounters of soviet snipers in 1942
Although true, that's "germans" not necessarily, this sniper in this scenario.
Maybe Franz back at base knows how to maintain a mosin, but even if we did, we don't know how this one specifically is zeroed, if its zeroed at all, if its undamaged, ect @@czwarty7878
Even in the '2nd' scenario I would still choose the k98 Mauser. If you do have a bramit device (knowing there rare) how many disposable wipes would you get. Also would there be that much benefit in the wore torn city with all the noise. I would also guess the German match ammo is significantly better than the subsonic Russian ammo. Even if there is no shot past 200 yard, it would probably be beneficial to have the capability to be accurate at longer ranges.
If you compare the two rifles the MN 91/30 is an old design with a very long barrel. The Mauser K98k was a post WW1 rifle designed with a much shorter barrel. I prefer that over a 1862 Springfield length rifled musket. The glass on German scopes, usually made Carl Zeiss (Hensoldt was the military branch of the company and still is today) was brighter and clearer than Russian glass IMO. I have looked through both scopes but I have not fired either one. I've shot both rifles quite a bit but NOT with scopes mounted on them. "Enemy at the Gates" was a movie and of the two countries the Soviet Union was portrayed as the lesser of the two evils. People can decide that for themselves but IMO the Mauser was a better made, more modern rifle and the glass was much better on the German rifles. It was a very big war with many snipers on both sides and each side was probably more comfortable with their own equipment.
The suppressor on the Mosin rifle is removable so you can fire standard ammo through it by taking off the suppressor if you need to take longer ranged shots.
@@garryb374 Yes, it is removable. But is it worth the trade off, probably not. A suppressor that has to replace parts every 10 shots with limited range (probably limited replacement wipes). This also being in a city with quite a bit or 'war noise'. Not sure if the suppressor is worth it. Having match ammo out of the k98 is more beneficial . Commonly, the noise of the first shot is 'free' in regards to tactics so the suppressor is less of a use in counter sniper. Making one accurate shot, even at close range, is probably more of a concern than sound. And probably the last good reason is the rifle you are carrying my be the only reasonable way friendlies can ID you when you return to base. If you are covered in random camo and WW2 version of a ghillie suit, the rifle is probably the only silhouette that is recognizable.
I would agree with the k98. Suppressors are just not as tactically useful in some applications as people may think. Like you mentioned, the 'first shot is free' for the noise and as long as you don't miss the spotter on the second shot than no need for the suppressor. Hiding flash might be more of a concern but might not be a large concern due to the environment and probably not shooting at night. Also, if you are German, how hard is it going to be to get more of the rare wipes for the suppressor. The Russians probably have a hard time getting the wipes (and food). I would pick the k98 mainly because of the higher accuracy and quality and the limited use of the suppressor.
@@karlheinzvonkroemann2217 Enemy at the gates is a horrible movie, and full of Hollywood tropes. That didn't even know anything about the battle. The portrayed the soviets as just throwing bodies, when that isn't what they did at all. The soviets ugly engaged the axis in stalingrad when they got to point blank range. Most troops in the city were not armed with the mosin nagant like in the movie they were armed with a PPSH41 a shovel, and 5 grenades. Chuikov gave strick orders you do not engage or move to a position farther than you can throw. The axis were going to bleed for every inch of the city. Every house and building was tobecome a fortress.
I have both rifles and have shot both rifles. The mosin nagant actually gets tighter groupings. And I am able to reach father distance with the mosin. The german scope is better because it is a 4 power scope compared to the PU 2 power scope.
But you get used to the PU scopes distance limitations because the scope is so easy to use. A subsonic mosin round would still hit to 600 yards and be a lot harder to hear.
Of the recoil, the Mauser k98 has a harder recoil than the mosin. For the same stopping power.
It’s really difficult for me to part ways with a platform I trained on and know. However if I were to choose one platform to train on and go into the city with between these two options, I’d go for the PEM. If engagement distances aren’t crazy far and fighting will be in an intense urban environment, I’d care more about minimizing my signature. A quieter rifle with good glass will get the job done as long as the subsonics can reach engagement distances
As mentioned by others, some of the German snipers send to Stalingrad were cross trained with Soviet Mosin-Nagant rifles, so they will not be as unfamiliar with them. Unless his primary KAR98 is damaged, I too will also keep it as well.
1 is zeroed the other is possibly zeroed since it's a souvenirs find.
In my opinion, the difference in handling of one type of bolt action to the other isn't a significant one. That shouldn't be a major concern. The amount of ammunition for the rifle at my disposal and the ability to squeeze of a shot without being detected would be very much so. Last but not least, bringing back a complete system with suppressor and matching ammunition might help with the proprietary development of suppressed sniper rifles.
Ikr it's not like you'll have time to clean and disassemble during a sniper fight. Just pick whichever is zeroed and fire it. And if that messes up then you can switch to the other rifle to use as a dmr
K98 Supremacy 🗿
Based
~hue 😂
The PU snipers Unity height scope is perfect for passive aiming with NVG’s, making it the obvious choice.
living in 2045 here.
@@9HoleReviewsNo he meant ww2 NVGs. You know those three feet long tubes with truck spot lights on top
Hop I think you're on your alt account
These really are my favorite videos yall do
Sorry Ian , you actually do see German soldiers using PPSHs , they were highly valued pieces of kit that picked up or bartered for. I read about a German runner who always kept his eyes open for them as they were so good for trade.Within a hundred meters they beat the hell out of k98 during a Russian frontal attack.
I think an evasion focused mission makes the weapon less important. A reload is unlikely to be important in this case for example
I think what would have evened out the scenario is if you (ze German), dropped your rifle when ducking that shot. Now your zero is in question, but the mosin is completely unknown.
That's interesting! 👍🏻
Take the mosin and evade any and all contact. A piece of equipment that intelligence has put a high impirtance on is paramount to getting back behind the line and into friendly hands.
Underrated take to be honest
Thats easy. Pocket the muzzle device and a couple rounds and keep your rifle that youve trained on and have DOPE for
In the original publication we told people this wasn’t an option because you were a German sniper in the prone position about to egress, so you don’t know how to QD the Bramit
Clearly violating the spirit and the point of tbe discussion, but ultimately the best "real world" choice.
@9HoleReviews ah. Gotcha. Limited time on my hands for watching YT. I missed the original vid or post you're referencing and only had time to watch part of this video. I figured I'd put my thoughts out there. I stand by my decision though. Keep your rifle. Do you really want to bet your life on someone else's equipment?
@@9HoleReviewsyou are an experience German you probably understand how a Soviet bayonet works which is how the bramit works take it back for study the ammo is the real issue your know going to know what is Ball ammo and what is special NKVD suppressed stuff I get the spirit of the whole thing but it might be worth it to fiddle around and try to recover the secret Soviet tech your most likely SOL anyways
Kar98. I’m just gonna keep this short. It’s a better rifle. Had both but Kar98 is better.
Ive had both and the m39 variant is what ends the debate. Sure stock for stock the k98 is better but with actual quality engineering and not Ivan hand grinding parts on an assembly line for absolute mass production. The mosin is the better sniper and better platform truly
@@DelGTAGrndrsYou do realize M39 is completely stock Russian "ivan grinding" made Mosin with only barrel and stock replaced, don't you?
@@DelGTAGrndrs here’s your weak link. The m39 is not a mosin. It’s a mosin variant. This scenario is the mosin 91/30 vs the Kar98 both in sniper configuration. In this case the Kar98 with its scope, and ammo choice hands down beats the mosin both in performance, accuracy, and specifically in this scenario.
If you want Mauser vs mosin then ok. I take the Swedish Mauser over the m39 any day. How and why? The Mauser design overall is far more superior. For its design it’s the grand daddy of all bolt actions and proven not just in 1 model but over several models from the original Mauser to the Springfield 1903. The 6.5 Swedish beats the 7.62x53r by a land slide in accuracy and even in faster rate of fire.
Don’t get me wrong the m39 is a fantastic rifle. But in this scenerio I chose the Kar98 because you have a 4x scope, better crosshairs, you have match ammo and you already have familiarity with the weapon system. If your a smart sniper you have a DOPE book on hand comparing to a weapon you just heard of and have no idea of it’s ballistics. You’re now under fire and have under 12 hours to make it back to your lines.
Shorter rifle is better in urban setting in this case it’s Stalingrad. Your rifle is lighter, and your only engaging targets up to 300 yards maximum. With a battlefield setting it’s already hard to distinguish where a sniper is even without a silencer. Again going back to being good sniper your not a DMR shooting as many targets as you can. 1-2 shots maximum and move to a different location.
In this scenario I’m not focusing on sniping. I’m focusing on breaking contact and reconnecting with my friendlies. If you’re worried about not being able to show proof of your discovery of this silencer. Draw a picture of it. Shape, give rough dimensions and move on. Again a smart sniper would write a very discription of what he or she saw. Thus painting a picture for your leaders.
Given the situation Id def pick my own rifle That I zeroed, practiced with and knew inside and out. But, the fact that he knows of the Mosin and there are multiple different types of ammo its a difficult decision.
I would imagine the effectiveness of the suppressor was negligible. Especially considering the amount of noise from gunfire, artillery, mortars, tanks, loss of hearing, etc.
plus you dont kno the weapon or if its even serviceable without test firing it.
Stick with my own rifle is my answer!
the official policy from the German side towards the Soviets was that it was an ideological war of annihilation - the war crimes were PART of the official stance towards citizens.
as was the sovjets thats old school war xd
At previous scenario i picked up a ready to go loadout with Mauser over the issued Sako (Finnish Mosin), witch for i had to sacrifice 15-20 minutes to scavenged ammunition from fallen comrades on the site of recent ambush, that the character miracously survived. Nope. I would just haul a** out of there.
Now i ending up with picking up the Mauser again, because it's the character's trusty rifle. No sniper would swap his rifle for battlefield pick up. I'm going to make a sigma move and pick my own, Option 3. I would just Tarkov'd the heck out of that scenario, by taking only the Bramit device and 20-30 subsonic rounds and just extract out of there. My take is, that at war it's vastly more important to survive and pass the intel up to the command chain than nerding out about rifles.
With the tweak, getting to choose the better rifle, my bias changes towards the pre-war production mosin. HOWEVER, I'm gonna pick whichever one actually performs better, and I know I can feed.
Like i said in the scenario brief, i'd pick the 150+150 rounds of 7.62x54r and the rifle that comes with it, because as the brief said, i can hear an enemy armoured column moving about.
This can potentially mean that my lines have shifted and now the egress time is not 12-24 hours, but potentially several days.
While i would certainly endeavour to shoot as little as possible, given the uncertainty, i'd want as much ammo as i could get.
your channel continues to evolve, improve, and hold my interest. thank you
The sculpture is "Children's Khorovod", inspired by the poem "Barmaley". The crocodile is friendly.
As for Russians picking up MG42s, the gpmg concept involves using a certain doctrine, not just the weapon, so maybe Soviet squads with different doctrine didn’t see the MG42 as worth the hassle of taking.
I really wouldn't want to figure out a new weapon when I'm behind enemy lines. Yes, the Mosin and mausers are similar but each has quirks that only an experienced user of either type would know how to deal with. I am staying with the Mauser in this situation
The question all comes down to 'what K98' are you talking about. As you say, late war models were hit and miss (pun intended). But you also have to factor in usage/modern bias.
A 1939 K98 fresh from the factory is not the same K98 that you are firing in 2024 - a war trophy that survived a few wars, possibly bad storage, no cleaning, etc. So, they get a bad reputation for accuracy. Most K98s I've fired were probably 2 to 5 MOA (or worse), depending on condition. So, sure, the Mosin will equal that. But I've shot both rifles extensively. If you have a pristine K98 (like it would have been in '39/'40) and good ammo, it runs circles around the Mosin.
Also factor in that there were about 3X as many Mosins made as K98s over the years. The odds are that the Mosin you're picking up now is one of the ones that were saved by collectors because they were good shooters (literally, natural selection), and the pool was 3X as big. The ones that weren't as good were scrapped well before 2024. So, you're looking at a biased pool now.
So, for me in Stalingrad, K98 all day, every day.
Same experience here, there's a lot of beat up K98s out there (and the same for Mosins obviously). Another problem is that people often shoot old middle eastern surplus with too light a bullet through it (typically 150-154 gr spitzer), whilst the rifling in the K98k was optimized for heavier 178-198 gr boat tailed spitzers. In addition to this I've seen so many outwardly appearing nice rifles with pitted barrels because the owners have been shooting old surplus through them for decades (which is highly corrosive) but then neglected cleaning the barrel afterwards. With pristine examples of both rifles though, barrel and all, like you said the K98k is definitely more accurate than the Mosin 91/30, pretty significantly so in my experience, esp. when running through repeated clips. All in all nn my experience with WW2 surplus rifles, if the rifle is in pristine condition (and esp. if we're shooting orig. wartime surplus ammo), the K98k is among the Top 3 most accurate service rifles of WW2 (my most accurate example is a byf43), with the Swedish M96 and Swiss K31 being the only ones I'd rank above it on average.
Well done for getting through that Ian, I couldn't. Im going to watch some forgotten wepons.
👍 14:58
That was a very well pronunced "Rattenkrieg"
The only reason for a German to pick up the Mosin is for the intelligence value of the Bramit. If you're a Major and a senior sniper, maybe. Otherwise, it's the Kar.
Ian prepping for dune part two by letting the spicy comments flow during this livestream.
Here's an idea for a pick two, ukrainian conscript chooses an MMG, PKM or Minimi in 7.62. Surprisingly common conundrum between conscripts choosing to train on western or eastern weapon off the bat.
Intro feels like cut sheet animation from a video game. Well done.
You guys should do a sniper competition with Rob Ski at your range.
Hey Henry, we talked before about a custom Mosin Nagant that I made that thought you would enjoy on your channel.
In scenario 1, is the either rifle that useful when running from an armor group?
That guy Rob got tired of the debate over sniper rifles on the internet..... so .... he invented a time machine and went back in time too find the answer.
On Sepp Allerberger btw, he used both systems (PEM equipped Mosin and a scoped K98), and he rated his Zielsechs (6x) equipped K98 as the best sniper rifle he ever operated, noting on top that the glass in his Zielsechs was far better than in the PEM , so that's worth noting on the glass quality part, esp. as the Soviets had nothing better than the PEM to offer.
I would pick the motim just to take back to base and and make o copie of the supressor, and for the more sthealth role of the mosin.
as a practical man. I will use the gun I am familiar with. if ammo is not sufficient and I can not find the ammo I need I will use other rifle
I honestly think I would have to go with the rifle I was trained with. The Mosin with the suppressor is very advanced for it’s time, but If you know nothing about that system especially in a think quick I need to get the fuck out of here scenario I’d choose what I know works.
Thats neen photographed in Warschau at the end of the War with the start of arrestation of War Commiters.
"we're americans we do what we want" is usually followed by "but if you do it, itll hurt my feelings"
Ian was so savage with his comments this time. He should start a comedy show. Maybe second channel soon?
I have some experience with combat pickups in modern times, mainly the AK. I keep the Kar unless there is a good reason to switch. There is no way to tell how damaged the pickup is unless it's really obvious.(You pull off the first shot, and the cartridge is really stuck in there because of internal damage. Have fun😅).
Thank you this is one of the few comments I see talking about the possible condition the rifle was left in by the previous soldier. You may not know it's a turd until it's way too late
@DBONE117 it's hard to tell a weapons condition by a passing glance, and the chaotic nature of combat is that everything that can go wrong will go wrong and it will be fast.
@@alexshtyn6336 exactly my thinking. I'm sorry to my government that I didn't get some good Intel or this new device but I feel like they would rather me complete my mission without getting killed more so. At least I would hope. Regardless that would be how I played it I think. I still don't understand why you couldn't just swing the other rifle over your shoulder and run for it with your current one as well. I feel like this is a totally loaded question by the guys
@DBONE117 oh because they are heavy and cumbersome, especially the ww2 ones each is like 10 pounds and have a long barrel. If you want to crawl, you need to hold it in your hands while doing so.
@@alexshtyn6336 I mean fair enough but I could probably bug out with it for just a short while until I can get to a slightly better vantage point where I know I have the time to disassemble the device and take it with me.
You pick the one you are trained on, unless the ammo supply is really limited vs the other?
1:29:15 I would imagine that in a future conflict with say China, the US wouldn’t have much reason to “loot” Chinese gear. Of course disposable/1 time use items like grenades, ATGM, MANPAD’s, Disposable Rockets maybe used.
But something like the QLZ-87 offer a semi unique capability that we don’t have, it’s a 26lb man portable semi auto shoulder fired 35mm grenade launcher.
That fountain is this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barmaley_Fountain inspired by the barmaley poem.
If I’m a German sniper and I have some familiarity with the nosing pem, then I would take that over the K98. Possibly remove the scope and just use the irons with the Bramit device directions. I would use Binos for observation and then take shots with the subsonic ammo only when I couldn’t slip by. My goal would be to not fire a shot, but if I had too I want to maximize not being detected.
Keep your service rifle because you are familiar with it. Even if you know your way around Mosins, you do not know this one.
You could have said you were a Romanian soldier who lost both weapons and had to choose. Romanians were in Stalingrad
Yeah I hate their scenarios. It always this gun with 5000 rounds through it vs a gun you just discovered but have hindsight history info on how good it is.
Even the damn scenarios out and use a neutral lowly trained militia or civillian who picks up the rifle. 9holes urks me sometimes
I would prioritize the Nagant. Not because I love it. But because the possibility of bringing enemy tech back to command is more worth my life than many of the other missions that I have been ordered to. To capture the technology could have been a mission on its own.
Pouring one out for Henry, having to clean all that cosmoline off 🍺 🫡
I need more @forgottenweapons and @9holereviews crossovers
Definitly vote Mosin with suppressor so long as it's zeroed.
The weapon I am most familiar with is my choice. Once I am familiar with how it shoots, I will be more accurate. I have shot a PU, a Swede M41B (AJAX 4X) and because 54R is cheaper, shot it allot. Unless I am going far, better with the PU I am.
A fair few comments seem to fall into the usual stereotype of soviet/russian gear bad, anti-russian side superior by default.
Then as now, they base this on the majority of the gear provided to the soviet/russian servicemen which was crude-er, but almost as effective as the enemies equivalents, but they could always have more of their 90% effectivness gear in any given area than the enemy could have of their 100% effectivness gear. (coupled with operational skill to mitigate the 10% loss in effectivness)
Add to that, that even while they were mass producing good enough gear, they were still producing top of the line gear for specialist or elite units, who would be as well or better equipped than the opposition.
(for a modern day equivalent, take the myth of the russians having no night vision or thermal vision devices, juxtaposed to them sticking thermal sights on one-time use, cheap fpv drones)
Then and now, this leads to the "it was at this moment he knew: he fucked up!" shocked realization when the supposedly knuckl-dragging, demoralized slavic incompetents end up kicking your ass and face.
The dancing children statue survive the war.
Well I think command would also be pretty mad if I lost a rifle. But idk how much of an issue that was in WW2
Normally yes. But you are an elite sniper who is going to have special privileges
Missed the livestream... The familiarity thing in my opinion would more be the optic than the rifle itself. No idea how different they are, but when i only get 30 seconds to decide, i for sure am not going to take an optic i have most likely seen the first time.
And as i commented on the first video already about the battle noise: like Austin said, with the almost constant artillery, tanks ect. and following the one shot one position rule, nobody is going to detect you by noise anyways. (unless you are right on them.) Muzzle flash would be more of a reason for taking the moisin with the device, but both optics aren't really suited for shooting in the dark and so the reduction of the muzzle flash isn't going to help that much either. (and not outweigh the unfamiliarity with the scope and the length thing Henry pointed out.
Also one thing: weren't the russian things in a different measurement than meters? ( Arshin?) Or was that already gone by WW2?
Always happy to see Pick One episode.
Suggestion for future scenarios. Tell us the whole story. Tell us what happens to the scenario if you pick one or another. It shouldn't be a win-loose story either. May be regardless of the pick, the German sniper could or couldn't make it out to the friendly lines and got captured?
The imagination could go wild. It would be really cool if after picks were made we get a reveal what would happened next to the story.
One problem point i see in the discussion constantly is "an average soldier wouldn't do this or that".
The reason this is a problem and arguably invalid point, is because snipers were not average soldiers, especially snipers that would operate solo behibd enemy lines.
These would by training and necessity be highly skilled individuals with a lot of initiative and independent thought, two dirty, filhty curse words when it comes to regular infantry, but critical for specialist units like this.
Their mentality and ability to make unconventional assessments precludes "average soldier" biases and hangups.
early Cold War era American police officer responding to a barricaded suspect[s] with potential hostages, do you take a shotgun and revolver, or surplus M1 Carbine?
love these nerd-out videos! haha
Very Interesting '' 💯Thank you Guys 💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Mosins can be nice. The Finnish ones certainly are. But many 91/30s are very deserving of "garbage rod" Mine certainly is. Its minute of barn and loves to jam up on the last round in the mag every time. Many of the cheap imported mosins are the same way. Everyone shooting surplus corrosive MG ammo doesn't help either. Nor does the fact that many of them seem to have never been rearsenaled and were just tossed into the cosmoline after use. I think in the context of the cheap, surplus poorly cared for and poorly fed rifle they earned garbage rod. And the nature of 54r supply and that the rifle didn't have wider use outside of that surplus context in the US means there is no point to make a nice mosin. So nobody does.
see how the Mosin does here: ua-cam.com/video/L3_C8ecgYLY/v-deo.html
@@9HoleReviews I've seen all your videos. Like I said, they can be nice. But I maintain many aren't. How much of that is inherent to the rifle is up for debate.
Haven't watched the whole video but I wanted to add my 2¢
A key element in my decision was the familiarity of a soldier with gunshots. Many will be able to distinguish the shot of a Mosin versus a K98. In that case I would rather have the Mosin if only because the Russians I am trying to evade may not think twice of a Mosin shot cracking off, whereas a K98 may draw more attention.
Never heard that German scope quality was ever "spotty" Henry, esp. since the German optics industry was largely spared from Allied bombing, and later German wartime optics even improved in that they were treated with anti reflective coatings that significantly improved light transmission -> hence why there is no shortage of late wartime anecdotes from western Allies soldiers about how the Germans had much better glass in everything from their binoculars to their rifle scopes and their tank sights, and most of these anecdotes are from 44 and 45 as the western Allies were picking up and inspecting German kit from Normandy to Berlin. I'm equally surprised that Ian would claim that the PEM has the same or even "better" glass than the German scopes, first because the factory producing the glass for the PEMs was using German provided tooling, and secondly because as mentioned German wartime glass actually improved over prewar German glass due primarily to hard AR coatings (Noted with a "*", "T" or "T*", the T being short for "Transparenz", on the scopes so treated), these coatings being closely guarded German military secret at the time. That German scopes in addition also mostly were gas purged, to help prevent fogging, is also not a trivial thing, esp. on the harsh eastern front.
Finally, you guys mention the "Kriegsmodell" K98ks in the video, however to be objective and fair, let's keep in mind that these "Kriegsmodell" rifles were a very late war thing, specifically they didnt start to appear until November 1944, and production of these wasn't in full swing until January 45. So honestly this model made up a very small portion of the K98k produced and issued by Germany during WW2. The far majority were produced to the same high standard as pre war, at least when it comes to performance & function.
Where did you get these connections of the weir? Eight and the term "inferior" life?
7x57 7mm mauser!
That was very well done. Near the end, typical Marine in adversity "... and they liked it!" Thanks.
I got my cup fingers crossed!! X
I’m late to the party on this. I would take the rifle I have been trained on and used. In this scenario if I’m the German sniper then I would keep the Kar 98K.
wow what a great episode!
I think the scenario was a bit of a fail this time around! That being said the conversation was still great to listen to
If you took the mosin, I’d like to think any Russian snipers in the area hearing suppressed shots would probably assume you’re a Russian sniper I’d like to think
So on a side note about the movie fury getting Brad Pitt's character keep that stg44 outside of the tank like i see it outside the tank also you have a tank so you find 1 craye of ammo your good
At the 9:50 mark, I'd take the Soviet rifle purely for the high intelligence value. I can put off the killing the enemy snoiper for another time. If I am exfilling and if I have to use a rifle, I screwed up.
Sorry to spoil IT a bit, but during WW2 snipers acting in neutral zone or behind enemy lines in absolute majority of cases carried back up weapons because probability of contact with enemy’s scouts and combat engineers was high. Back up kit included hand grenades, pistols as bare minimum and, quite often, SMGs. That may be a game changer here.
And another thing - Mosin has iron sights operable when optics are on. They are crude and would be zeroed. They should be enough for exfil contact.
Mosin is a little better, Suppressor is better than no suppressor . If time allows use Sniper Mosin. If time short used the one YOU know better.
2 minutes in the choice is easy. Im taking the rifle Im confident in. The other scope will not be zeroed for me and may prove costly if in a tight spot. When the shot counts I want to be 100% confident that the rifle and optic are bang on.
Regardless of which rifle is my own, I am taking my own rifle all the time.
Again, German snipers were familiar with mosins, and many began sniping with them instead of mausers due to the lack of resources at the beginning of the war.
Mosins had better barrels
@@michailpanchev9952 lmao no 🤣
I'd have to say mosin, but im biased 😂. Though none of mine are snipers, though one has the stock of one.
Well, I think there is really big misunderstanding of soviet - German military cooperation (and general cooperation) between wars. That cooperation did really exists and been really big - before Hitler got to a power. Then it was completely stop. As much of economy relations too. And then, in 1939 Molotov-Ribbentrop pact came to be - but that was completely different story. And sides newer return to past cooperation in military even after pact, though some examples of German weapons had been sold to USSR.
In my opinion;
If I was a German Sniper, I would still stick with the Mauser K98k. Even how to operating is quite identical (Bolt action rifle) but I would be specialized in aimming and shooting with German Scope and 7.92 x 57mm rounds already. Using Russian Scope and 7.62 x 54mm rounds without much experience could get myself killed easier.
На фото и видео Великой Отечественной войны часто мелькают у наших бойцов трофейные МР и MG, а вот снайперских винтовок практически нет. Связано это с тем что Маузер не давал какого либо серьёзного преимущества при этом требовал длительного привыкания для эффективной работы, поэтому и не получил в войсках широкого распространения.
I'd be a little worried about getting caught with that gun. But who am i kidding, its the russians we're talking about, you dont wanna be caught at all!
If my mission is to return to base then it's the shorter and lighter rifle for me. Because my goal is to escape. Not engage. Unless I must engage in order to escape and I have no choice.
Perhaps the only reason to takenthe enemy weapon is to get that technology back to your military.
We need a French Indochina Mas36 vs k98k (Chinese mauser) lol
Ian certainly has some spicy comments today haha!
Pic one idea: you are a CIA assets in some African warlord conflict.
Your wapons smuggler has a hot ne item, a MP5 SD. Do you ditch your AK or do you keep it?
Maby a pmc not CIA
Bit late to the party, but might getting shot by your own guys when reaching german lines be an issue? When some german (maybe even a sniper) sees a probably camoed up dude with a soviet weapon sneak towards german lines I could well imagine the guy just lights him up. There was a lot of friendly fire in Stalingrad as it is.
Granted it's unlikely that the average german even acknowledges the weapon of whatever comes towards him, but if it's a countersniper guy, maybe they do.
it was a very common thing for both sides to use captured enemy sniper rifles back in this era.
I'd take the Mosin Nagant. It's actually simple, it has nothing to do with actually being a marksman and weapon familiarity.
But on that note, consider this. Consider the sort of people who are interested in sniping; the role attracts a "niche" group of people and while it isn't always the case by a long shot (heh), the level of corporate knowledge prior to becoming a sniper is higher than average. Snipers are typically well versed in shooting and marksman even in their civilian lives, they would have fired a variety of different firearms and have achieved a level of skill that is far higher than typically expected of ordinary rifleman. As far as "what rifle to use", the assumed level corporate knowledge will help mitigate issues switching to another rifle.
From an S&E point of view, the length of the rifle is important but at that point you're better off not carrying a sniper rifle anyway. If you're caught and identified as a sniper, you're likely going to be tortured and/or shot out of revenge by line troops. If you survive that, you'll interrogated by NKVD/S2 personnel for information. There were (and still are) drills in place in the event that S&E/capture is imminent, so outright destroying the rifle is arguably the best solution thereby rendering the point of "which rifle to use" rather mute IMHO.
From a TECHNICAL INTELLIGENCE point of view, capturing a M91/30 PEM scoped rifle with sub-sonic ammunition would have been a far bigger a bonanza than people realize. This is 1942/43, the Germans (and I'd argue the Western Allies too) were behind in sniper technology compared to the Red Army. Yes, there are inherrent risks as a marksman and S&E view to carrying the PEM Mosin all the way back to base, but if you could it would not only help develop an intelligence picture but the intelligence provided would allow SOP's, TTP's and technical developments to counter Red Army snipers.
Not withstanding the personal kudos and sheer fucking balls to achieve such a devious lick.
I'm only 41:14 minutes into the video, so I apologize if what I've discussed is mentioned later. But this was a very interesting scenario and I wanted to provide my 2 cents for consideration.
The other thing is that you are egressing, and therefore if you have to shoot, it will be because they've already seen you... so you want a super fast shooter, you want the lightest and shortest weapon. Kar98k hands down. If it were a sniper mission, then maybe the mosin as the best sniper rifle. But since it's an egress mission, I want a rapid shooter, ie. the Kar98k with it's rimless cartridges, and slick, fast bolt, it's shortness, familiarity, and I'd take the scope off too and use full stripper clips. But I'd only be shooting if I was compromised, and that would be rapid fire as I retreated...
The K98 is the more accurate rifle on average, by design, and I'd argue this is the most important factor for a sniper. Plus the Germans were the only ones to issue actual match ammunition for their snipers. So K98 is the obvious answer as far as Im concerned.
What’s the barstool joke?
Ian you are a gentleman and a scholar. Very entertaining discussion gentlemen.
A bit late to the game... what about sound signature? Isn't there a risk to be killed by own snipers?
I never liked the scenarios because the most authentic scenario, especially since all of your viewers are civillian gunowners in the u s, should always be a hunter with a broken rifle that has to choose between 1 of the 2 guns and not a escaping single runaway soldier that has to decide if they want to abandon their rifle or not.