Been there done that - with the breaker off! Shared Neutral (i obviously wasn't aware of it) across at least three different circuits in a 1950's house that saw various "handyman" and homeowner modifications through the decades. Bonus points for three-prong receptacles with no ground. I was moving a kitchen light fixture that shared a circuit with one or two receptacles in the same room, and verified all were dead. Went to wire nut the new fixture to the existing neutral, and completed the circuit for what I later found was the back bedrooms. The bedrooms' hots had their own breaker, but some psycopath didn't feel like running a separate neutral 50'.
And this is why when I was helping my parents out I refused to work on something when my no-contact voltage tester lit. Yes, I know those things aren't perfect, but better safe than sorry.
Awesome presentation as usual, but I wish you would have taken a moment to warn the newer guys about shared neutrals. Even if the circuit you’re working on is off, it doesn’t mean that same neutral wire isn’t being used for a separate circuit elsewhere that is still active. This is common practice in my area, especially in older buildings.
Yup. Absolutely been shocked by the neutral on a multiwire branch circuit. The circuit I was working on was off but neutral was apparently shared with another circuit that was not. I separated the neutrals and while twisting them back together, I got shocked through making contact on my sidecutters. Decent load on it too! Do not underestimate the neutral. If you're in a building that was wired when sharing neutrals was still up to code, you have to use your clamp meter to test for amperage & see if there is a load still passing through the neutral.
I was an apprentice on a job with the DCR where I was shocked up the leg when I knelt down on the grass and reached in to splice in a light pole. The city engineer told the shop to tell the electrician it was off and to have me splice it in. After I got shocked and ended up on the ground the wireman came over to do exactly what he told me to do and got shocked as well. After he overcame the initial shock as well he got me up and had us call the shop who said it must of been backfed somewhere if the circuit was indeed verified off by the city engineer who insisted we did not need a key to the panel at a public facility. My legs never worked properly again. I've tried so hard to move on with my life but I live with the affects of the risk of this job and my life was forever altered. Always verify no matter who it makes look bad it's your life and someone else. Good topic to cover. I get a lot of flack when the inexperienced insist you can't ever get shocked from a neutral. Caught up in a circuit was another way to communicate that potential better or something like that. The wireman said a few things to me one of which was this would make a great story about electrical work someday. I heard he had a heart attack on a ladder just a few years later. Some of the people I worked with didn't survive or had such awful injuries.
I have been shocked as well doing the same damn thing…It almost killed me. The light circuit was hot and then went to the switch which was off at the time. When I cut through the wire it almost killed me as I was kneeling on the wet ground….It was my fault. I should have checked the wire regardless of the switch position !
@@JetDriver1111 Thanks for reading all that. Sorry you got hurt, glad you survived. They had no right to tell me the circuit was already tested and safe. They had no right to tell me that getting hurt made them look bad. Even the journeyman said the city engineer should of known better and never should of opened that park to the public. You will talk about surviving this job for the rest of your life he said to me and he was right, my burn never healed and the doctors have not been able to help much. This is also an example as to why as an engineer you need to know what you are doing or you put lives and people at risk and survivors are not going to put up with keeping quiet. It will be investigated whether or not they ever gave me an answer. As for me, I'm working on coping with incompetent people. A thousand jobs done safely and that was the one to destroy half my body. And also, I got pictures of my leg after it happened and what it became ten years later when I nearly lost my leg and it affected my whole body. I went through six years of auto immune treatments from it. What happens when the valence of human tissue is internally replaces by copper current flow? Could it lead to copper poisoning on a strong enough current? How do the doctors treat that? I am a survivor and it never should of been allowed to happen. Thanks for reading.
@@NerveFlux I suggest you try some Reiki healing….Dont laugh just yet…It works ..I’ve received it myself and used to be a healer myself…Your own family can do it to you as well…
@@JetDriver1111 I can't laugh I've done it all. All of it. Even fasting. Even ice diving. I've done it all trying to survive this. Most people do not have the strength to survive this. It's been humbling in ways impossible to put into words. Other electricians that survived such things had told me I was cooked internally and I needed to drain it out of my body so I learned how to do that by Ice plunging and then using drawing salves. I refuse to die without a fight.
the first time i watched your videos when i first thought of becoming an electrician, i had no idea what you were talking about. 2 semesters into trade tech, and now everything your saying makes sense. its kinda fun.
I like your final comment about how you can get shocked by any two conductors. Everyone needs to remember you can even get shocked if the actual ground is a conductor and the ground wire could contain some potential from the actual ground. Love your videos and I learn a lot even though I will probably never become an electrician. Understanding is always a plus.
I got shocked when I was unbundling some neutral wires, even though I had already checked that there were no live wires in the electrical box I was working in. Took me a bit of time to figure out why I got shocked. Turned out it was a neutral wire that was part of a multi-branch circuit and my panel didn't have a double breaker used for it. I appreciated your video on multi-branch circuits. I now treat neutrals with more respect.
I was working on a box above a grid a few months ago. I was leaning on it, and accidentally touched the hot. It was only 120v, but it was the worst pain I've experienced from electricity. Definitely a learning experience for me.
There are a variety of factors that go into how "badly" you get shocked. The number 1 factor is the voltage or potential. Everything else tends to be limiting factors to how well that potential allows current to flow. So the pathways the current takes can make a significant difference, You don't want current flowing through your heart or your brain. So trying to keep the pathways away from those two areas is in your best benefit. You can pass some fairly high currents in milliamps that hurt a lot and may even cause some burns or even some internal damage without being killed. But lesser currents that pass through the heart or the brain can lead to death. Ultimately, the resistance of the pathway, is the primary limiting factor. We have both internal and external resistance, (through the skin contact areas). There has been a lot of research through the years and one thing it tells us is that different individuals have different internal resistances. But in a given individual their resistance can vary through the day. Research suggests a few groupings across a sampling of individuals. The biggest grouping being around 80% who have very similar resistance and then two groups of about 5-10% that have considerably higher or lower resistance. So most people will have very similar levels of internal resistance, but there will also be some "exceptional" individuals on both ends of the spectrum. With this in mind, they developed current ranges and typical perception and effects of these current levels. Some things like perceivable levels in the few milliamp range. tingling, minor pain, extreme pain, muscle contraction. "let go" threshold, mild burns, etc, all the way up to typical lethal levels. Another key factor before we get to the internal resistance, which is quite low, we have skin/contact resistance. These end up being the pathway entry and exist points. This is generally higher resistance than internal resistance, but can vary widely. Dry, callused skin has fairly high resistance, soft, supple skin has lower resistance. Moisture can lower resistance dramatically. Larger contact areas make lower resistance. Pressure or compression, also makes for lower resistance. "leaning contact" is usually a larger area with some pressure. Leaning contact with moist damp skin and solid grips, will deliver some "strong" shocks. Women and children tend to be a bit more susceptible to higher current shocks. Body mass can play a role too. When grabbing something and getting currents above the so called "let go threshold", muscle contractions can tend to keep you in contact, being hard to pull free. This is generally thought to be around 30 milliamps. But depending on which muscles get activated, these can also act to push you away. Any jointed body parts have opposing muscles. So you can be drawn in or pushed back depending on which muscles get activated. Sometimes that can contribute to other injuries. So in the end, it generally gets down to the math, but the variables can differ greatly. Higher voltage will cause stronger shocks. The time length of a shock is usually pretty quick, but longer length shocks can be worse. When you get above around 300 volts or have sustained shock currents, flesh can began to breakdown. That will obviously be worse and can cause permanent damage. If you are on the low resistance side of the spectrum, you'll likely get worse shocks and may perceive small shocks that other don't. If you are on the high resistance end of the spectrum, you are a bit better off, but the variable factors can still make you vulnerable. You can get some strong shocks or be killed by 120 volts, but the potential is worse at 240 volts. If you are going to work with electricity, odds are that you will get shocked from time to time. The key is paying attention and using safe practices. Avoid working stuff live and don't do it because of laziness to shut something off. Depending on the type work you do, there may be times when there is little choice. It's just good practice to work things like they are live. even when you know they aren't.
I was shocked many times by the shared neutral problem in my youth.. At that time, it was code ok to do that.. I learned real quick to test any other neutrals connected..
The bottom line is that, if the neutral has potential on it in comparison to something else you're in contact with, then sure - you can get a shock (if the potential is sufficient). Generally, of course, the neutral is grounded, so coming in contact with it alone isn't an issue. I'm a little cautious with the word "touching" as someone may think that is physically touching with the hand, as described in the video. You can get a shock by touching a hot lead and nothing else if your footwear isn't sufficiently insulated. I think that there are a lot of amateur do-it-yourselfers (e.g. non-electricians working on their own homes) that watch this channel and they aren't likely wearing footwear designed for electricians. If they touch a hot, they're going to feel it as their feet are the other "touch" point to ground, completing the circuit.
@@acat6000 Touching a neutral under load you would be in a parallel circuit to ground I believe, most of the amperage going through the neutral. Yes? Am I thinking this right?
@@acat6000 If you touch a hot wire and nothing else, you can't get shocked. If we're living in a pretend world where you can touch just the wire even lightning can't shock you. In fact, if you are touching a hot wire and something else that has the same phase and potential as the hot wire (like when a lineman grounds a helicopter to a live 2 million volt line so the frame has equal potential to the line) you cannot get shocked. You get shocked when the voltage can cross from one potential to another that has a potential difference, making the video misleading. The principle holds true under a narrow set of circumstances with a large number of special conditions, but it does not hold true for everyday people who will never be in a scenario where it is applicable.
A lot of mistakes I see from people who are trying to understand insulation and how it works comes from the high school curriculum and the false statement they make that rubber is an insulator and electricity cannot flow through it.
Years ago when I knew absolutely nothing bout electric and I wanted to do something in a junction box under my craw space and for some reasons wasn’t turning off power because, an electrician from work told me exactly what you have said. Just use one hand and you won’t get a shock, well in the crawl space was a copper water pipe, needless to say my ONE HAND was touching the live hot wire and that bare forearm squeezing between the copper pipes touched that and that was that. I shut the power off after that, and probably had no idea why that happened at the time. Your an excellent teacher btw. Thank you always
Nailed it. I enjoyed the part about grid ceilings. I've been shocked the same way. Another reason I wear long sleeve shirts. Local story, lunchtime, foreman sticks around working lighting in a grid ceiling 277 hot. Something happened, lunch ended and workers reported a person's chest missing. Cooked. So unfortunate. They cooked in the ceiling because it wasn't what they were touching with their hands, it was the other thing their body was touching. Probably not related to the neutral. Great video. Been watching and all great content. I really appreciate that your content is CEU compliant. Amazing
7:10 I do this when working on server ups units. Capacitors hurt when they discharge through you. Always 1 hand in pocket and I'm standing on a rubber floor mat. Those big server ups units the size of file cabinets are no small tickle.
Unless you’re floating in space, you’re touching the floor, or a scaffold, or a bucket, or something. There’s no scenario where the only thing you’re touching is the neutral.
There is a scenario where everything you are touching is insulated enough you are not a path for the electricity. That is why there is footwear for electricians that is rated for how many volts it will protect you from. And why electricians should never touch their knee to the ground.
@@ecospider5 Right, but “insulated enough” is a moving target that changes with voltage. That’s why microwave transformers and lichtenberg devices are so dangerous.
Yes and that is why the shoes are rated just like the rest of electricians protective gear. Do not wear gear rated for 300v when working on 15kv motors.
@@ecospider5 most gear I've seen even for low voltage 50 to 600 volts is rated for at least 600 if not 1000 volts never seen something only rated for 300v volts never the less I see what your saying use the right PPE I'd also recommend make sure to inspect it regularly like every use basically, learned that from some local lineman they were showing me even a pin hole in the gloves and you'll get fried right up and thats high volt crazy shit I'm over here just wiring some single phase panels but still gotta stay safe boy's good luck out there 🤞.
I was going off the voltages you see on multimeter ratings. And yes class 0 voltage rated gloves are 1000v and the ratings go up from there. But there are lower stuff. EA640ZD-5 As an example is 300v AC and 750v DC. No actual electrician would ever buy those though.
I love how I'm always on the same page as this channel lol. Every time I have a question and start to research it I seem to find a video you made on it the very next morning
my thing I don't get with neutrals given the diagram at 4:11 - How is there a voltage difference between top black - low white on left of the bulb, but none between the high and low whites on the right of the bulb?
Happened to me! The job was simple, replace 50 year old outlets on the bedroom circuit. Got a helluva a shock on something that should be safe and simple. Traced back to find that the thermostat transformer was tied into the same circuit. Even with the breaker off, it was powered, because 1960 code said you can run 2 breakers with a common neutral. Arrgh.
My dad was dealing with a 1970’s bathroom with a 3 way switch. He turned off the breaker and then cut 2 wires at once and there was a flash and those wire cutters now have a big chunk out of them. The way the 3 way switch worked was they used another wire from a different circuit. That bathroom no longer has a 3 way switch.
I touched the neutral from a doorbell transformer, with my right hand, my left hand was on the body of the panel. Worst shock I’ve ever had, affected my heart rhythm for a minute or two. Scared the absolute shit out of me. I now take much more precaution any time hot work is necessary.
Always remember some places you go to aren't wired correctly. I've gotten shocked touching a ceiling grid, my other hand was on my ladder not. ...in the last week.
I've got a good ZAP on a neutral line that was live, because another switch was on feeding power through it, so i became the quicker route to ground then going back to the panel. My entire life I thought "You cant get shocked on neutral" so I always for decades touched without any issue, until the one time she got me good, lol. woke me right up!
I bet you REALLY started to understand circuitry and grounding after that 😎. I’ve been shocked a few times in my career, anywhere from 120-347 volts. Never got lit up on a neutral, though. My journeyman explained open/broken neutrals to me very early on in my career…. Probably saved me from that “learn from the school of hard knocks” experience.
I"ve had the exact same forearm shock experience, except the equipment in my case was an environmental chamber with 220VAC incorrectly wired to the metal interior that was supposed to be cold. I'm definitely thankful it was just a little warning bite and nothing more.
Touching two points, a man lift that wasn't grounded parked under 350kv(or better) lines for the weekend, in an environment where the voltage pen lit up outside. Strapped in and drove inside went up right hand on the boom basket railing, left hand reaching out to over head door, didn't even make context.. all the built up energy must have left through me to ground. Still can't hold 5lbs above chest height. Constantly dropping tools after 1.5 years later and a hand surgery.. still only have about 40% grip strength, if that. Still looking for the proper health professional to assist with rehab
A tile guy was wet cutting tile outside a patio door. He said every once in a while he would feel something that felt like a slight shock when opening the door. My tester was beeping anywhere around 3 feet away from any wall or wire by the patio door. In the attic above the same spot, my tester was beeping with the nearest wire 3 feet away. I thought my tester was on the fritz. Troubleshooting the problem: An outside light was installed next to the metal patio door frame on an aluminum sided house. A screw was drilled through the neutral wire during the outside light installation connecting the neutral, patio door and the aluminum siding together.
So the current flowed through extra metal before continuing the loop to source…? This is the picture I am drawing in my head. The door and siding have enough resistance that keeps the amps down as to not trip the breaker? I am supposing So because he only felt a little tingle. That’s wild. I wonder if anything would change if that light was on. maybe he would’ve got shocked harder if the light was on.
A year ago I was on a scissor lift in a trough wireway doing demo - tons of unmarked 120 and 277 circuits. Thought I had a dead 120 circuit. Was labeling another wire when my hand came in contact with what was a 277v circuit neutral and the metal trough. Quite a wake up. I think the saving grace was there was only one light on the circuit, so current was limited a bit, but I had to come down and take a break once I isolated the wire.
Two questions if that’s ok: 1) So if I open a receptacle and touch the hot and the copper ground, I’ll get shocked just as you did with your ground shock you got? 2) But let’s say the hot and neutral on the receptacle are connected fine and electricity is flowing, but I touch hot and ground, how do we know how bad the shock would be and just how much would be directed into us compared to what’s still flowing from ground to neutral?
I was digging up a steam line with excavator and a pipefitter jumped down into trench and cut pipe away from Building. When he touched both cut half's climbing out of wet trench he was electrocuted . 911 call. I saw him drop into trench and we tried to pull him out. He survived CPR used by a guy who was from Us Navy Medic. Turns out the steam water condensate pipe were bonded to ground neutral and when he cut pipe potential existed between both halves. His wet hands touching both sides almost killed him. In IBEW we were taught to test with back of left hand only .
Alternating current can " capacitively couple" through an insulator. That is one of the functional characteristic of a capacitor. That's also why some LED lights will slightly glow in the dark -- the switch does a small amount of capacitive coupling. That said, the coupling can be negligibly small for practical purposes. Switches and circuit breakers are designed to have negligible capacitance.
Could this be a dropped neutral? I was working on completely rewiring a 30x50 area with MC above drop ceiling. I used clips to suspend the mc on the support wires. I had my hand on a junction box and accidentally touched my ear to a piece of mc going to that box and my ear got shocked. Not too bad, but enough to make me jump and say a bad word. That particular mc wire was to a light.
OK, nice explanation. Here's my question: at one point you say ~'can get shocked between neutral and ground. ' But, if neutral and ground are bonded at the panel (and I believe they are supposed to be, pls correct me if I'm wrong) wouldn't the shock require some sort of fault/disconnect (similar to your white hot wire example) or load between the touch point and the panel on the white side of the circuit? ... otherwise wouldn't the current just ground via the white as opposed to through the installer to ground? thanks
So if an appliance dishwasher, or fridge 110v shocks you when touching the handle or surface your points are the appliance and the gound via your feet on the floor?
Why do we find houses or apartments that do not have the ground cable or the equipment ground cable? Are our teams safe in these facilities? Why does it come without ground fault installation?
Question , i was trying to changed a light fixture in a old house And both cables had power , and I instal the light fix. Worked. Normals - why is that??
When was a child, I grew up in a house that was originally built in the 1950's. It had a finished basement with two prong outlets. There was a lamp that we would turn on by pushing a switch on the lamp. I remember getting shocked by that lamp at random times and I didn't know why. Since I was a kid, I didn't understand what was going on. What was happening is that sometimes I was touching the metal lamp socket shell or cap while pushing the switch of the lamp. Sometimes I would do this with bare feet or with socks on. So I was completing the circuit with my feet even though the floor was tiled. I'm making this point because when we use the word "touch", people assume that means with your hands, they never consider that their feet can complete the circuit.
1:13 "and then like just jump through the air" yes, it can. I did get a shock this way. European, 3 phase system, one conductor touched my finger, and two centimeters below a spark came out from my finger into the other conductor, jumping through ~2-3mm of airgap. 400V, I'm lucky, had a scar for a month.
If any of the current goes through your heart I believe they typically wanna keep you at the ER for 24 hours to monitor your heart. People have been hung up, broke loose, shook it off and went about their day only to drop dead of a heart attack later on because of their heart being out of rhythm
Re start the heart is number 1. If a heart is stopped by lightning or electric shock it is the rare instance that you might get the heart to restart without the paddles. Keep doing cpr until the ambulance arrives. Step 2 is look for burns and treat them. If there are burn marks really far apart, like a hand and a knee, their might be internal burns so call 911. If it is from your hand to your elbow still see a doctor but the damage is contained in that forearm.
When I got shocked the guy I was working with made me stop pacing and looked at my hands for burns, adrenalin will be through the ROOF so having others with clear heads check for stuff like that is critical.
I had a guy I was working with about 20 years ago when I was still pretty green take apart a hot neutral on a 277v lighting circuit and try to tell me to not worry about a neutral because it would not shock anybody. Then he got lit up when he grabbed the wire. To say the least, it was a learning experience for the both of us. Lol
Thanks for another great video! I do have one question on the open neutral. I'm just trying to understand how much of a shock a person will get if they complete the circuit for the open neutral described in the video. In that case, the person and light bulb will be be in series in the circuit, so I assume the voltage drop across the person will be less than 120 volts and hence the shock won't be as bad as it would be otherwise?
It might be a little bit lower, but probably not by that much. A 60 watt bulb on 120V will have a resistance of 240 ohms. Your body's resistance will be much higher than that (and if it's not, you're really screwed as you'll get a huge current going through you). So most of the 120V will be across you.
Braced against a sheet metal stud in a tract house I felt a jolt thru my shirt on my back. Checked my drop cord, Hole Hawg cord and switch.Nothing wrong with any of them. Finally determined that there was an open neutral at the temp pole that Del Webb had installed for the houses we were working on. Apparently the power was depending on the equipment ground to complete the circuit to the temporary panel.There were other subs working off this pole but nobody else had noticed a problem....yet.... I went to the super and warned him of an unsafe condition and was promptly ignored. I mean here was a plumber trying to tell him that he had an electrical problem so what the hell could I know. Right? I knew someone could be hurt so I went out and "disabled" the panel. When all the subs started screaming that their power was off and the panel was "damaged" they were out there in nothing short of light speed to fix it.....a whining plumber getting shocked was one thing but slowing down of production was an entirely different thing.... Money always speaks louder than one lonely plumber......🤣🤣🤣
@A Town The argument is that if a Neutral is OPENED it is NOT a neutral anymore, it might be a conductor with white insulation, but it doesn't act as a Neutral anymore because it is OPEN (which makes it hot).
In an old building, I got shocked by the neutral (and arm on metal box), I think it was load imbalance in an old building. Neutral was connected in a sub-panel to the right (isolated) bus; can still feel the "wiggling worms" in my arm to this day. 😬. Not an electrician btw.
Great video. I smiled at the title. I find it interesting you never use the terms 'open' and 'short' and 'closed' circuit. Granted I did EE (now I flip homes) but those terms were thrown around all over the place. Is that no longer true? Thanks!
An area with poor grounding can cause you to get “shocked” off the system neutral. Very common in rocky areas, guys will get poked off the system neutral or service drops
In Finland, first thing they teach us in school to become an electrician is how electricity will kill you and your customer with neutral being broken in different points in the current loop. PEN-conductor from utility being the worst of them all and it has been quite common breaking point in the past, when we had a lot of overhead lines. Also ~everything being three phase here makes it hard to understand where would the then not so "neutral" potential end up with different loads going on and off. I'm sure it won't be fun in split phase systems too, but we have basically whole second dimension for neutral to find its place from. Our meter cabinets should have their own grounding electrodes (usually 15 meters of 16 or 25 mm2 bare copper in the ditch with incoming utility cable or a loop around/under the foundation of the building), but depending of the soil, it won't be enough to replace broken wire from the transformer/utility cabinet/etc. I was a bit surprised that the explanation only had a group level broken connection and it seemed that the utility/cabinet side of things were always the real neutral.
Had 120 hot going into a motor, was working on the loose neutral on said motor, bumped the ground with my arm and completed the circuit thus getting shocked on the neutral wire.
I was rewiring a room one time. Though power was off initially. Then as I take a receptacle apart. I notice a 12/3 wire not the usual 12/2. Previous someone carried 2 hots from 2 breakers over on 1 cable. With seperate conductors. Then they split in a receptacle box. I had power off I though. Then I seen that. And rechecked breakers... I don't usually use noncontact "deathsticks" as they can be inaccurate but I now atleast use it as a 2nd or 3rd verification there is no power.
Some other factor must have been present because we've all been in desperate situations where you lost your neutral but still had 120 to ground so you landed that to the neutral screw in the device. You must have just broke the load on the return path and it made contact with the ground while you were touching it
On a proper system the voltage loss on neutral cannot be so high that you get socked. All my grounded sockets are done with TN-C so the cases are connected to the neutral and I do not get shocked. I have measured about one volt with 5 A load. If the neutral is broken then sure you get shocked from it.
@@erich1380 this was a long time ago when neutrals were shared. I was landing a neutral in a push in wago and it was fighting going in. I used my strippers as pliers to grab onto the wire to push and twist it in. My elbow was touching a metal fire suppression pipe. My hand must have been touching the metal part of the strippers and the strippers made contact with the copper. It was an emergency and exit lighting circuit that was on. So my arm completed the path from the neutral to the ground. There was no device in that j-box i was working on. I was not touching any hots. So i got shocked by touching the neutral and ground while there was a load on the neutral. There was no mystery or anything like that going on. It's very simple what happened.
Human body is 300 ohms. 100 feet of 14 awg wire is 1/4 ohms. There is a calculation that will tell you what percentage would follow each path. Obviously 1/4 ohm is way smaller than 300 ohms so the wire will carry most of the load.
YES,!!! the nuetral is commonly "shared" by other devices on same circuit to return path of current back to the panel box, hit me a few times cause I wuz a "green horn" Sparky @ the time,!!!! LUCKY me work with a senior experienced guy one time that saved me from getting hit by a 277v lite I wuz replacing, Thankyou forever Frank,!!!
when I heard the question, I thought it was between neutral and ground. The answer is yes, if there's a resistance between said neutral and the midpoint in the transformer, that is sufficiently high, and the resistance through the new path you provide is sufficiently low. Classic example is if the neutral you're touching is not connected to anything
Please explain to me how did i just not get hit by only touching the hot and nothin else oh i no my i was in Walmart shoes that were not non conductive so when you introduce your self as a ground you now are ground potential so there is no need for a neutral you'll be lit up like a drunk at a baby shower and please explain why you cant be hit by a loaded neutral to when the hot is off cause you do know that loaded neutrals (on a dead system ) can and will kill you please tell me how that dont work to and dont ever think you got to touch it for it to hurt or kill cause a.c voltage can ionize through the air to get to you for the least path of resistance but thats on hight voltage a.c and minimal separation is 3 foot without non conductive material clothing
Yes. You can get shocked on a neutral that has opened being serviced by a hot that is closed. Especially if the neutral isn't bonded to ground service at panels
A good way to explain how only one conductor does not allow current to shock someone touching ONLY one conductor is pointing out that, not completing a circuit, is why birds can sit on transmission lines
Three way switch where they originally wired a common neutral instead of the independent neutral to the light and each switch through the travelers. The neutral from two three way switches independent and they combined the neutrals. Depending on the switch settings there was voltage in reference to ground on the neutral. I learned the hand in the pocket from my dad an electrical engineer. When followed never got shocked. Some times you just got to use two hands.
Essentially if a wire has the possibility to carry current it has the possibly to shock you. So don’t touch any damn wires regardless of the color! Copper/aluminum work the same no matter if it’s colored green or black.
Test everything first and always. You can get shocked by the hot, neutral and the ground. If the voltage is high enough it doesn't matter what else you are touching. If you touch the wrong side of a neutral you are completing the circuit. TEST EVERYTHING
Code nowadays still allows sharing neutrals between 2 or more hot conductors, you just have to handle tie the breakers. I hardly ever run multi wire branch circuits with shared neutrals. It's less safe for a few reasons. There's the shock hazard if the electrician didn't handle tie the breakers, and there's also a real risk that if you lose your neutral connection and it's no longer your grounded conductor, then you have 240 volts across your circuit in series and seriously fry things. And as far as I'm aware there's only 1 manufacturer ( GE) that makes an arc fault breaker that works with circuits sharing a neutral.
Hell yes you can get bit by the neutral and it hurts the worst in my experience Especially with a lot of caps on the load Not because of touching just the neutral but like you said, whatever other grounded thing you're touching.
But if you touch the hot wire without having to touch any other wire, given the you are link with the floor,,,, then it means that you grounded, hence currently will definitely go through your body.
there is a way to get shocked on just one conductor but it does not involve the grid/mains electrical system. a very high voltage static charge can do this. in winter on indoor carpet one person scuffs their shoes to become charged and holds a bare wire. another person touches that wire. there is real current involved, lasting only long enough to balance out the charges. this is not the only way.
My dad made many points when I was young: 1. One hand rule 2. Remove jewelry when working on electrical 3. Don't trust a neutral, assumptions kill 4. Do quality work 5. You may be the guy that has to come work on something so save yourself by doing it right I'm sure there are others but its been a long time. But, there was a reason he included don't trust neutral in his rants.
In a domestic scenario a household user can be walking around bare feet in the home which automatically connects the body to ground. If the user touches a floating neutral for a light bulb (and the light bulb terminal is connected to live) the user's body will provide a secondary neutral to the light bulb and current will flow into the hand and out the feet because the neutral is bonded with the earth at the transformer. PS: A Shock from a floating neutral to earth is more dangerous than a live to earth shock. The reason being is that there could be loads such has refrigerators, water pumps etc in the circuit which will draw the current it requires to run through your body. From 1 ampere can be fatal.
Got shocked holding 3 neutrals in one hand but it hit multiple points some one ran another circuit through a light and it was still hot. My mistake should have tested it all but I trusted someone else to say power was off while I was at the breaker.
Neutral hurts the most because it drags you in. But it all matters on if you grabbing the wires or either touching something with the rest of your body
so ... in a old bone dry wood attic with dry boots on i can grab the hot wire directly and be fine ? this seems loco especially with the ac part , but there are birds on lines. not saying you are wrong , but i dont believe you enough to test this myself.
I’ve seen a star connected transforme which wasn’t connected to ground (347/600 volts) common, this allowed the neutral to have a voltage which was 347 volts if touched with a person & ground. The job had been inspected by authorities & electrician 😳 😱⚡️
The video makes it sound like you can NEVER be shocked by just touching the black "Hot" wire with one hand. So if I touch the black "Hot" wire as you did at 1:07 in the video and I'm standing barefoot on the ground or in a puddle of water I won't be shocked? Wouldn't the current try to pass through me to ground and back to the transformer?
Shared neutrals between 2 separate circuits.. neutral can shock you... if there is a load on separate circuit and your kneeling on ground you will get hit
Just yesterday i was servicing an exhaust fan and i touched the body of the fan and nothing happened to me i touched the motor to see if it was warm and i cant making connection to the body of the fan and boy did i get “shocked”
I'd say wrong question, the start question is can a neutral be live carrying current, and of course it can, it has to in order to complete the loop. Doesn't matter where you are in the loop, if you insert yourself, shocks can happen, regardless of wire color/name.
These types of videos and reading comments like these are the reason why as a handyman, I tell my clients that I don't work in electrical panels, and I don't do electrical in walls, because I know enough to know that I don't know enough.
Been there done that - with the breaker off! Shared Neutral (i obviously wasn't aware of it) across at least three different circuits in a 1950's house that saw various "handyman" and homeowner modifications through the decades. Bonus points for three-prong receptacles with no ground.
I was moving a kitchen light fixture that shared a circuit with one or two receptacles in the same room, and verified all were dead. Went to wire nut the new fixture to the existing neutral, and completed the circuit for what I later found was the back bedrooms. The bedrooms' hots had their own breaker, but some psycopath didn't feel like running a separate neutral 50'.
Hapened that way to me too.
Been there. I'm beginning to wonder if they didn't just build them that way for a while.
Yup. Allowed by code back then.
And this is why when I was helping my parents out I refused to work on something when my no-contact voltage tester lit. Yes, I know those things aren't perfect, but better safe than sorry.
Been there. Done that too. Shared neutral 3 rooms and 50ft apart. With other circuits in middle. So why it was shared with own hot breakers. Idk...
Awesome presentation as usual, but I wish you would have taken a moment to warn the newer guys about shared neutrals. Even if the circuit you’re working on is off, it doesn’t mean that same neutral wire isn’t being used for a separate circuit elsewhere that is still active. This is common practice in my area, especially in older buildings.
dude you are totally right haha i gotta be careful haha
Agreed shared neutrals 277v oweee
He has a video about shared neutrals.
How do you test for a shared neutral?
Yup. Absolutely been shocked by the neutral on a multiwire branch circuit. The circuit I was working on was off but neutral was apparently shared with another circuit that was not. I separated the neutrals and while twisting them back together, I got shocked through making contact on my sidecutters. Decent load on it too! Do not underestimate the neutral. If you're in a building that was wired when sharing neutrals was still up to code, you have to use your clamp meter to test for amperage & see if there is a load still passing through the neutral.
mwbc are still code as far as the NEC goes. they just need to have a common disconnecting means, most commonly in the form of a 2 pole breaker
I was an apprentice on a job with the DCR where I was shocked up the leg when I knelt down on the grass and reached in to splice in a light pole. The city engineer told the shop to tell the electrician it was off and to have me splice it in. After I got shocked and ended up on the ground the wireman came over to do exactly what he told me to do and got shocked as well. After he overcame the initial shock as well he got me up and had us call the shop who said it must of been backfed somewhere if the circuit was indeed verified off by the city engineer who insisted we did not need a key to the panel at a public facility. My legs never worked properly again. I've tried so hard to move on with my life but I live with the affects of the risk of this job and my life was forever altered. Always verify no matter who it makes look bad it's your life and someone else. Good topic to cover. I get a lot of flack when the inexperienced insist you can't ever get shocked from a neutral. Caught up in a circuit was another way to communicate that potential better or something like that. The wireman said a few things to me one of which was this would make a great story about electrical work someday. I heard he had a heart attack on a ladder just a few years later. Some of the people I worked with didn't survive or had such awful injuries.
I have been shocked as well doing the same damn thing…It almost killed me. The light circuit was hot and then went to the switch which was off at the time. When I cut through the wire it almost killed me as I was kneeling on the wet ground….It was my fault. I should have checked the wire regardless of the switch position !
@@JetDriver1111 Thanks for reading all that.
Sorry you got hurt, glad you survived.
They had no right to tell me the circuit was already tested and safe.
They had no right to tell me that getting hurt made them look bad.
Even the journeyman said the city engineer should of known better and never should of opened that park to the public.
You will talk about surviving this job for the rest of your life he said to me and he was right, my burn never healed and the doctors have not been able to help much.
This is also an example as to why as an engineer you need to know what you are doing or you put lives and people at risk and survivors are not going to put up with keeping quiet.
It will be investigated whether or not they ever gave me an answer.
As for me, I'm working on coping with incompetent people.
A thousand jobs done safely and that was the one to destroy half my body.
And also, I got pictures of my leg after it happened and what it became ten years later when I nearly lost my leg and it affected my whole body. I went through six years of auto immune treatments from it. What happens when the valence of human tissue is internally replaces by copper current flow? Could it lead to copper poisoning on a strong enough current? How do the doctors treat that? I am a survivor and it never should of been allowed to happen.
Thanks for reading.
@@NerveFlux I suggest you try some Reiki healing….Dont laugh just yet…It works ..I’ve received it myself and used to be a healer myself…Your own family can do it to you as well…
@@JetDriver1111 I can't laugh I've done it all. All of it. Even fasting. Even ice diving. I've done it all trying to survive this. Most people do not have the strength to survive this. It's been humbling in ways impossible to put into words.
Other electricians that survived such things had told me I was cooked internally and I needed to drain it out of my body so I learned how to do that by Ice plunging and then using drawing salves.
I refuse to die without a fight.
the first time i watched your videos when i first thought of becoming an electrician, i had no idea what you were talking about. 2 semesters into trade tech, and now everything your saying makes sense. its kinda fun.
"Your probably gonna turn on the lightbulb too" that was the best part... ;)
I like your final comment about how you can get shocked by any two conductors. Everyone needs to remember you can even get shocked if the actual ground is a conductor and the ground wire could contain some potential from the actual ground. Love your videos and I learn a lot even though I will probably never become an electrician. Understanding is always a plus.
I got shocked when I was unbundling some neutral wires, even though I had already checked that there were no live wires in the electrical box I was working in. Took me a bit of time to figure out why I got shocked. Turned out it was a neutral wire that was part of a multi-branch circuit and my panel didn't have a double breaker used for it. I appreciated your video on multi-branch circuits. I now treat neutrals with more respect.
I was working on a box above a grid a few months ago. I was leaning on it, and accidentally touched the hot. It was only 120v, but it was the worst pain I've experienced from electricity. Definitely a learning experience for me.
Try getting hit with the high leg of a 400 amp bus bar.
Sucks...
were you grounded to any thing or did your body's surface area create some sort of loop?
There are a variety of factors that go into how "badly" you get shocked. The number 1 factor is the voltage or potential. Everything else tends to be limiting factors to how well that potential allows current to flow. So the pathways the current takes can make a significant difference, You don't want current flowing through your heart or your brain. So trying to keep the pathways away from those two areas is in your best benefit. You can pass some fairly high currents in milliamps that hurt a lot and may even cause some burns or even some internal damage without being killed. But lesser currents that pass through the heart or the brain can lead to death.
Ultimately, the resistance of the pathway, is the primary limiting factor. We have both internal and external resistance, (through the skin contact areas). There has been a lot of research through the years and one thing it tells us is that different individuals have different internal resistances. But in a given individual their resistance can vary through the day. Research suggests a few groupings across a sampling of individuals. The biggest grouping being around 80% who have very similar resistance and then two groups of about 5-10% that have considerably higher or lower resistance. So most people will have very similar levels of internal resistance, but there will also be some "exceptional" individuals on both ends of the spectrum. With this in mind, they developed current ranges and typical perception and effects of these current levels. Some things like perceivable levels in the few milliamp range. tingling, minor pain, extreme pain, muscle contraction. "let go" threshold, mild burns, etc, all the way up to typical lethal levels.
Another key factor before we get to the internal resistance, which is quite low, we have skin/contact resistance. These end up being the pathway entry and exist points. This is generally higher resistance than internal resistance, but can vary widely. Dry, callused skin has fairly high resistance, soft, supple skin has lower resistance. Moisture can lower resistance dramatically. Larger contact areas make lower resistance. Pressure or compression, also makes for lower resistance. "leaning contact" is usually a larger area with some pressure. Leaning contact with moist damp skin and solid grips, will deliver some "strong" shocks. Women and children tend to be a bit more susceptible to higher current shocks. Body mass can play a role too.
When grabbing something and getting currents above the so called "let go threshold", muscle contractions can tend to keep you in contact, being hard to pull free. This is generally thought to be around 30 milliamps. But depending on which muscles get activated, these can also act to push you away. Any jointed body parts have opposing muscles. So you can be drawn in or pushed back depending on which muscles get activated. Sometimes that can contribute to other injuries.
So in the end, it generally gets down to the math, but the variables can differ greatly. Higher voltage will cause stronger shocks. The time length of a shock is usually pretty quick, but longer length shocks can be worse. When you get above around 300 volts or have sustained shock currents, flesh can began to breakdown. That will obviously be worse and can cause permanent damage. If you are on the low resistance side of the spectrum, you'll likely get worse shocks and may perceive small shocks that other don't. If you are on the high resistance end of the spectrum, you are a bit better off, but the variable factors can still make you vulnerable.
You can get some strong shocks or be killed by 120 volts, but the potential is worse at 240 volts. If you are going to work with electricity, odds are that you will get shocked from time to time. The key is paying attention and using safe practices. Avoid working stuff live and don't do it because of laziness to shut something off. Depending on the type work you do, there may be times when there is little choice. It's just good practice to work things like they are live. even when you know they aren't.
I was shocked many times by the shared neutral problem in my youth.. At that time, it was code ok to do that.. I learned real quick to test any other neutrals connected..
The bottom line is that, if the neutral has potential on it in comparison to something else you're in contact with, then sure - you can get a shock (if the potential is sufficient). Generally, of course, the neutral is grounded, so coming in contact with it alone isn't an issue.
I'm a little cautious with the word "touching" as someone may think that is physically touching with the hand, as described in the video. You can get a shock by touching a hot lead and nothing else if your footwear isn't sufficiently insulated. I think that there are a lot of amateur do-it-yourselfers (e.g. non-electricians working on their own homes) that watch this channel and they aren't likely wearing footwear designed for electricians. If they touch a hot, they're going to feel it as their feet are the other "touch" point to ground, completing the circuit.
But you wouldn't be touching nothing in that case, you would be touching the ground with your feet. The principle holds true.
@@acat6000 Touching a neutral under load you would be in a parallel circuit to ground I believe, most of the amperage going through the neutral. Yes? Am I thinking this right?
@@acat6000 If you touch a hot wire and nothing else, you can't get shocked. If we're living in a pretend world where you can touch just the wire even lightning can't shock you. In fact, if you are touching a hot wire and something else that has the same phase and potential as the hot wire (like when a lineman grounds a helicopter to a live 2 million volt line so the frame has equal potential to the line) you cannot get shocked. You get shocked when the voltage can cross from one potential to another that has a potential difference, making the video misleading. The principle holds true under a narrow set of circumstances with a large number of special conditions, but it does not hold true for everyday people who will never be in a scenario where it is applicable.
A lot of mistakes I see from people who are trying to understand insulation and how it works comes from the high school curriculum and the false statement they make that rubber is an insulator and electricity cannot flow through it.
@@scottmyers10 broh
Years ago when I knew absolutely nothing bout electric and I wanted to do something in a junction box under my craw space and for some reasons wasn’t turning off power because, an electrician from work told me exactly what you have said. Just use one hand and you won’t get a shock, well in the crawl space was a copper water pipe, needless to say my ONE HAND was touching the live hot wire and that bare forearm squeezing between the copper pipes touched that and that was that. I shut the power off after that, and probably had no idea why that happened at the time. Your an excellent teacher btw. Thank you always
Nailed it. I enjoyed the part about grid ceilings. I've been shocked the same way. Another reason I wear long sleeve shirts. Local story, lunchtime, foreman sticks around working lighting in a grid ceiling 277 hot. Something happened, lunch ended and workers reported a person's chest missing. Cooked. So unfortunate. They cooked in the ceiling because it wasn't what they were touching with their hands, it was the other thing their body was touching. Probably not related to the neutral. Great video. Been watching and all great content. I really appreciate that your content is CEU compliant. Amazing
7:10 I do this when working on server ups units. Capacitors hurt when they discharge through you. Always 1 hand in pocket and I'm standing on a rubber floor mat. Those big server ups units the size of file cabinets are no small tickle.
Unless you’re floating in space, you’re touching the floor, or a scaffold, or a bucket, or something. There’s no scenario where the only thing you’re touching is the neutral.
There is a scenario where everything you are touching is insulated enough you are not a path for the electricity. That is why there is footwear for electricians that is rated for how many volts it will protect you from. And why electricians should never touch their knee to the ground.
@@ecospider5 Right, but “insulated enough” is a moving target that changes with voltage. That’s why microwave transformers and lichtenberg devices are so dangerous.
Yes and that is why the shoes are rated just like the rest of electricians protective gear. Do not wear gear rated for 300v when working on 15kv motors.
@@ecospider5 most gear I've seen even for low voltage 50 to 600 volts is rated for at least 600 if not 1000 volts never seen something only rated for 300v volts never the less I see what your saying use the right PPE I'd also recommend make sure to inspect it regularly like every use basically, learned that from some local lineman they were showing me even a pin hole in the gloves and you'll get fried right up and thats high volt crazy shit I'm over here just wiring some single phase panels but still gotta stay safe boy's good luck out there 🤞.
I was going off the voltages you see on multimeter ratings. And yes class 0 voltage rated gloves are 1000v and the ratings go up from there. But there are lower stuff. EA640ZD-5 As an example is 300v AC and 750v DC. No actual electrician would ever buy those though.
I love how I'm always on the same page as this channel lol. Every time I have a question and start to research it I seem to find a video you made on it the very next morning
my thing I don't get with neutrals given the diagram at 4:11 -
How is there a voltage difference between top black - low white on left of the bulb, but none between the high and low whites on the right of the bulb?
Happened to me! The job was simple, replace 50 year old outlets on the bedroom circuit. Got a helluva a shock on something that should be safe and simple. Traced back to find that the thermostat transformer was tied into the same circuit. Even with the breaker off, it was powered, because 1960 code said you can run 2 breakers with a common neutral. Arrgh.
My dad was dealing with a 1970’s bathroom with a 3 way switch. He turned off the breaker and then cut 2 wires at once and there was a flash and those wire cutters now have a big chunk out of them.
The way the 3 way switch worked was they used another wire from a different circuit. That bathroom no longer has a 3 way switch.
I touched the neutral from a doorbell transformer, with my right hand, my left hand was on the body of the panel. Worst shock I’ve ever had, affected my heart rhythm for a minute or two. Scared the absolute shit out of me. I now take much more precaution any time hot work is necessary.
Always remember some places you go to aren't wired correctly. I've gotten shocked touching a ceiling grid, my other hand was on my ladder not. ...in the last week.
I've got a good ZAP on a neutral line that was live, because another switch was on feeding power through it, so i became the quicker route to ground then going back to the panel. My entire life I thought "You cant get shocked on neutral" so I always for decades touched without any issue, until the one time she got me good, lol. woke me right up!
I bet you REALLY started to understand circuitry and grounding after that 😎.
I’ve been shocked a few times in my career, anywhere from 120-347 volts. Never got lit up on a neutral, though. My journeyman explained open/broken neutrals to me very early on in my career…. Probably saved me from that “learn from the school of hard knocks” experience.
I"ve had the exact same forearm shock experience, except the equipment in my case was an environmental chamber with 220VAC incorrectly wired to the metal interior that was supposed to be cold. I'm definitely thankful it was just a little warning bite and nothing more.
Touching two points, a man lift that wasn't grounded parked under 350kv(or better) lines for the weekend, in an environment where the voltage pen lit up outside.
Strapped in and drove inside went up right hand on the boom basket railing, left hand reaching out to over head door, didn't even make context.. all the built up energy must have left through me to ground. Still can't hold 5lbs above chest height. Constantly dropping tools after 1.5 years later and a hand surgery.. still only have about 40% grip strength, if that.
Still looking for the proper health professional to assist with rehab
A tile guy was wet cutting tile outside a patio door. He said every once in a while he would feel something that felt like a slight shock when opening the door.
My tester was beeping anywhere around 3 feet away from any wall or wire by the patio door. In the attic above the same spot, my tester was beeping with the nearest wire 3 feet away. I thought my tester was on the fritz.
Troubleshooting the problem: An outside light was installed next to the metal patio door frame on an aluminum sided house. A screw was drilled through the neutral wire during the outside light installation connecting the neutral, patio door and the aluminum siding together.
So the current flowed through extra metal before continuing the loop to source…? This is the picture I am drawing in my head.
The door and siding have enough resistance that keeps the amps down as to not trip the breaker? I am supposing So because he only felt a little tingle. That’s wild. I wonder if anything would change if that light was on. maybe he would’ve got shocked harder if the light was on.
A year ago I was on a scissor lift in a trough wireway doing demo - tons of unmarked 120 and 277 circuits. Thought I had a dead 120 circuit. Was labeling another wire when my hand came in contact with what was a 277v circuit neutral and the metal trough. Quite a wake up. I think the saving grace was there was only one light on the circuit, so current was limited a bit, but I had to come down and take a break once I isolated the wire.
Two questions if that’s ok:
1)
So if I open a receptacle and touch the hot and the copper ground, I’ll get shocked just as you did with your ground shock you got?
2)
But let’s say the hot and neutral on the receptacle are connected fine and electricity is flowing, but I touch hot and ground, how do we know how bad the shock would be and just how much would be directed into us compared to what’s still flowing from ground to neutral?
I was digging up a steam line with excavator and a pipefitter jumped down into trench and cut pipe away from Building.
When he touched both cut half's climbing out of wet trench he was electrocuted .
911 call.
I saw him drop into trench and we tried to pull him out.
He survived CPR used by a guy who was from Us Navy Medic.
Turns out the steam water condensate pipe were bonded to ground neutral and when he cut pipe potential existed between both halves.
His wet hands touching both sides almost killed him.
In IBEW we were taught to test with back of left hand only .
Alternating current can " capacitively couple" through an insulator. That is one of the functional characteristic of a capacitor. That's also why some LED lights will slightly glow in the dark -- the switch does a small amount of capacitive coupling. That said, the coupling can be negligibly small for practical purposes. Switches and circuit breakers are designed to have negligible capacitance.
Could this be a dropped neutral? I was working on completely rewiring a 30x50 area with MC above drop ceiling. I used clips to suspend the mc on the support wires. I had my hand on a junction box and accidentally touched my ear to a piece of mc going to that box and my ear got shocked. Not too bad, but enough to make me jump and say a bad word. That particular mc wire was to a light.
OK, nice explanation. Here's my question: at one point you say ~'can get shocked between neutral and ground. ' But, if neutral and ground are bonded at the panel (and I believe they are supposed to be, pls correct me if I'm wrong) wouldn't the shock require some sort of fault/disconnect (similar to your white hot wire example) or load between the touch point and the panel on the white side of the circuit? ... otherwise wouldn't the current just ground via the white as opposed to through the installer to ground? thanks
So if an appliance dishwasher, or fridge 110v shocks you when touching the handle or surface your points are the appliance and the gound via your feet on the floor?
Why do we find houses or apartments that do not have the ground cable or the equipment ground cable? Are our teams safe in these facilities? Why does it come without ground fault installation?
Question , i was trying to changed a light fixture in a old house And both cables had power , and I instal the light fix. Worked. Normals - why is that??
When was a child, I grew up in a house that was originally built in the 1950's. It had a finished basement with two prong outlets. There was a lamp that we would turn on by pushing a switch on the lamp. I remember getting shocked by that lamp at random times and I didn't know why. Since I was a kid, I didn't understand what was going on. What was happening is that sometimes I was touching the metal lamp socket shell or cap while pushing the switch of the lamp. Sometimes I would do this with bare feet or with socks on. So I was completing the circuit with my feet even though the floor was tiled. I'm making this point because when we use the word "touch", people assume that means with your hands, they never consider that their feet can complete the circuit.
1:13 "and then like just jump through the air" yes, it can. I did get a shock this way. European, 3 phase system, one conductor touched my finger, and two centimeters below a spark came out from my finger into the other conductor, jumping through ~2-3mm of airgap. 400V, I'm lucky, had a scar for a month.
What is the best thing to do after u get shocked I’ve seen people freak out and panic not sure if there is a proper procedure
If any of the current goes through your heart I believe they typically wanna keep you at the ER for 24 hours to monitor your heart. People have been hung up, broke loose, shook it off and went about their day only to drop dead of a heart attack later on because of their heart being out of rhythm
Re start the heart is number 1. If a heart is stopped by lightning or electric shock it is the rare instance that you might get the heart to restart without the paddles. Keep doing cpr until the ambulance arrives.
Step 2 is look for burns and treat them. If there are burn marks really far apart, like a hand and a knee, their might be internal burns so call 911. If it is from your hand to your elbow still see a doctor but the damage is contained in that forearm.
When I got shocked the guy I was working with made me stop pacing and looked at my hands for burns, adrenalin will be through the ROOF so having others with clear heads check for stuff like that is critical.
I had a guy I was working with about 20 years ago when I was still pretty green take apart a hot neutral on a 277v lighting circuit and try to tell me to not worry about a neutral because it would not shock anybody. Then he got lit up when he grabbed the wire. To say the least, it was a learning experience for the both of us. Lol
Thanks for another great video! I do have one question on the open neutral. I'm just trying to understand how much of a shock a person will get if they complete the circuit for the open neutral described in the video. In that case, the person and light bulb will be be in series in the circuit, so I assume the voltage drop across the person will be less than 120 volts and hence the shock won't be as bad as it would be otherwise?
It might be a little bit lower, but probably not by that much. A 60 watt bulb on 120V will have a resistance of 240 ohms. Your body's resistance will be much higher than that (and if it's not, you're really screwed as you'll get a huge current going through you). So most of the 120V will be across you.
Braced against a sheet metal stud in a tract house I felt a jolt thru my shirt on my back. Checked my drop cord, Hole Hawg cord and switch.Nothing wrong with any of them. Finally determined that there was an open neutral at the temp pole that Del Webb had installed for the houses we were working on. Apparently the power was depending on the equipment ground to complete the circuit to the temporary panel.There were other subs working off this pole but nobody else had noticed a problem....yet.... I went to the super and warned him of an unsafe condition and was promptly ignored. I mean here was a plumber trying to tell him that he had an electrical problem so what the hell could I know. Right? I knew someone could be hurt so I went out and "disabled" the panel. When all the subs started screaming that their power was off and the panel was "damaged" they were out there in nothing short of light speed to fix it.....a whining plumber getting shocked was one thing but slowing down of production was an entirely different thing.... Money always speaks louder than one lonely plumber......🤣🤣🤣
So if I stand on a wooden ladder, can I touch the hot wire and not get shocked?
In theory you might get away with it. But wood has moisture in it and if I was you I wouldn’t try it.
So glad I found this excellent channel.
Thanks for the wonderful explanation!
Oh boy, the "you can't get shocked by a neutral" people are not going to like this LOL
@A Town Yeah, quite a bit actually. All over forums, and even here on youtube.
@A Town The argument is that if a Neutral is OPENED it is NOT a neutral anymore, it might be a conductor with white insulation, but it doesn't act as a Neutral anymore because it is OPEN (which makes it hot).
@@Hatim.13 exactly
In an old building, I got shocked by the neutral (and arm on metal box), I think it was load imbalance in an old building. Neutral was connected in a sub-panel to the right (isolated) bus; can still feel the "wiggling worms" in my arm to this day.
😬.
Not an electrician btw.
@@Hatim.13 Which makes it (you) part of a series circuit to ground.
Great video. I smiled at the title. I find it interesting you never use the terms 'open' and 'short' and 'closed' circuit. Granted I did EE (now I flip homes) but those terms were thrown around all over the place. Is that no longer true? Thanks!
So a devicw down the line being used. I touch a neutral connection before a device being used, will i got shocked?
One of my favorite tests diff between neutral and ground. Neutral has a voltage I have a problem, ground has a voltage I have a major problem.
An area with poor grounding can cause you to get “shocked” off the system neutral. Very common in rocky areas, guys will get poked off the system neutral or service drops
In Finland, first thing they teach us in school to become an electrician is how electricity will kill you and your customer with neutral being broken in different points in the current loop. PEN-conductor from utility being the worst of them all and it has been quite common breaking point in the past, when we had a lot of overhead lines.
Also ~everything being three phase here makes it hard to understand where would the then not so "neutral" potential end up with different loads going on and off. I'm sure it won't be fun in split phase systems too, but we have basically whole second dimension for neutral to find its place from. Our meter cabinets should have their own grounding electrodes (usually 15 meters of 16 or 25 mm2 bare copper in the ditch with incoming utility cable or a loop around/under the foundation of the building), but depending of the soil, it won't be enough to replace broken wire from the transformer/utility cabinet/etc.
I was a bit surprised that the explanation only had a group level broken connection and it seemed that the utility/cabinet side of things were always the real neutral.
Had 120 hot going into a motor, was working on the loose neutral on said motor, bumped the ground with my arm and completed the circuit thus getting shocked on the neutral wire.
Don't forget the neutral that's not really a neutral. If you use a neutral as a hot, label it!
I was rewiring a room one time. Though power was off initially. Then as I take a receptacle apart. I notice a 12/3 wire not the usual 12/2. Previous someone carried 2 hots from 2 breakers over on 1 cable. With seperate conductors. Then they split in a receptacle box. I had power off I though. Then I seen that. And rechecked breakers... I don't usually use noncontact "deathsticks" as they can be inaccurate but I now atleast use it as a 2nd or 3rd verification there is no power.
You need to do a live demonstration on how you can't get shocked 😅😅. Set up a outlet and go touch a nuetral with a live circuit
A 21 year old kid that I knew got killed by a neutral , he was an apprentice . Yes current flows through the neutral and it can kill you .
You can get shocked by touching the neutral and ground if there's a load on the neutral. Source, it's happened to me.
Some other factor must have been present because we've all been in desperate situations where you lost your neutral but still had 120 to ground so you landed that to the neutral screw in the device. You must have just broke the load on the return path and it made contact with the ground while you were touching it
On a proper system the voltage loss on neutral cannot be so high that you get socked. All my grounded sockets are done with TN-C so the cases are connected to the neutral and I do not get shocked. I have measured about one volt with 5 A load.
If the neutral is broken then sure you get shocked from it.
@@okaro6595 yep
@@erich1380 this was a long time ago when neutrals were shared. I was landing a neutral in a push in wago and it was fighting going in. I used my strippers as pliers to grab onto the wire to push and twist it in. My elbow was touching a metal fire suppression pipe. My hand must have been touching the metal part of the strippers and the strippers made contact with the copper. It was an emergency and exit lighting circuit that was on. So my arm completed the path from the neutral to the ground. There was no device in that j-box i was working on. I was not touching any hots. So i got shocked by touching the neutral and ground while there was a load on the neutral. There was no mystery or anything like that going on. It's very simple what happened.
Human body is 300 ohms. 100 feet of 14 awg wire is 1/4 ohms. There is a calculation that will tell you what percentage would follow each path. Obviously 1/4 ohm is way smaller than 300 ohms so the wire will carry most of the load.
YES,!!! the nuetral is commonly "shared" by other devices on same circuit to return path of current back to the panel box, hit me a few times cause I wuz a "green horn" Sparky @ the time,!!!! LUCKY me work with a senior experienced guy one time that saved me from getting hit by a 277v lite I wuz replacing, Thankyou forever Frank,!!!
Unless it was wired by a builder D.Hxxx where a neutral and ground is a live as 3:56 . Keep up these great videos.
Doesn't it form a loop as you standing on the ground?
when I heard the question, I thought it was between neutral and ground. The answer is yes, if there's a resistance between said neutral and the midpoint in the transformer, that is sufficiently high, and the resistance through the new path you provide is sufficiently low. Classic example is if the neutral you're touching is not connected to anything
Please explain to me how did i just not get hit by only touching the hot and nothin else oh i no my i was in Walmart shoes that were not non conductive so when you introduce your self as a ground you now are ground potential so there is no need for a neutral you'll be lit up like a drunk at a baby shower and please explain why you cant be hit by a loaded neutral to when the hot is off cause you do know that loaded neutrals (on a dead system ) can and will kill you please tell me how that dont work to and dont ever think you got to touch it for it to hurt or kill cause a.c voltage can ionize through the air to get to you for the least path of resistance but thats on hight voltage a.c and minimal separation is 3 foot without non conductive material clothing
TLDW: Yes, absolutely! 3:55 for the most likely scenario.
Yes. You can get shocked on a neutral that has opened being serviced by a hot that is closed. Especially if the neutral isn't bonded to ground service at panels
A good way to explain how only one conductor does not allow current to shock someone touching ONLY one conductor is pointing out that, not completing a circuit, is why birds can sit on transmission lines
@@sunshinesucks1355 just hope your boots are well insulated
how can they sit in it?
Most guys I speak to, their first zap is off a neutral.
They failed to realize there were other devices on the line...
Volt meter shows 120v hot to ground, but no voltage hot to neutral, what can it be? Neutral wire looks burned
You should make a video about transformers and grounding and bonding related to them. And also how to adjust voltages by swapping around taps.
Three way switch where they originally wired a common neutral instead of the independent neutral to the light and each switch through the travelers. The neutral from two three way switches independent and they combined the neutrals. Depending on the switch settings there was voltage in reference to ground on the neutral. I learned the hand in the pocket from my dad an electrical engineer. When followed never got shocked. Some times you just got to use two hands.
What Benq monitor and app is that?
What about touching a live wire, while bear footed on a concrete floor or touching a concrete wall.
Yes
You're going to get a shock.
Ok so you’re saying if I touch the black wire only I will not make electrical contact?
Essentially if a wire has the possibility to carry current it has the possibly to shock you. So don’t touch any damn wires regardless of the color! Copper/aluminum work the same no matter if it’s colored green or black.
Test everything first and always. You can get shocked by the hot, neutral and the ground.
If the voltage is high enough it doesn't matter what else you are touching.
If you touch the wrong side of a neutral you are completing the circuit.
TEST EVERYTHING
Code nowadays still allows sharing neutrals between 2 or more hot conductors, you just have to handle tie the breakers. I hardly ever run multi wire branch circuits with shared neutrals. It's less safe for a few reasons. There's the shock hazard if the electrician didn't handle tie the breakers, and there's also a real risk that if you lose your neutral connection and it's no longer your grounded conductor, then you have 240 volts across your circuit in series and seriously fry things. And as far as I'm aware there's only 1 manufacturer ( GE) that makes an arc fault breaker that works with circuits sharing a neutral.
I got hit by static electricity while making up a 12 x 12 today.. scared the hell out of me 😅
Hell yes you can get bit by the neutral and it hurts the worst in my experience
Especially with a lot of caps on the load
Not because of touching just the neutral but like you said, whatever other grounded thing you're touching.
But if you touch the hot wire without having to touch any other wire, given the you are link with the floor,,,, then it means that you grounded, hence currently will definitely go through your body.
there is a way to get shocked on just one conductor but it does not involve the grid/mains electrical system. a very high voltage static charge can do this. in winter on indoor carpet one person scuffs their shoes to become charged and holds a bare wire. another person touches that wire. there is real current involved, lasting only long enough to balance out the charges. this is not the only way.
Yes and the ground too
My dad made many points when I was young:
1. One hand rule
2. Remove jewelry when working on electrical
3. Don't trust a neutral, assumptions kill
4. Do quality work
5. You may be the guy that has to come work on something so save yourself by doing it right
I'm sure there are others but its been a long time. But, there was a reason he included don't trust neutral in his rants.
In a domestic scenario a household user can be walking around bare feet in the home which automatically connects the body to ground. If the user touches a floating neutral for a light bulb (and the light bulb terminal is connected to live) the user's body will provide a secondary neutral to the light bulb and current will flow into the hand and out the feet because the neutral is bonded with the earth at the transformer. PS: A Shock from a floating neutral to earth is more dangerous than a live to earth shock. The reason being is that there could be loads such has refrigerators, water pumps etc in the circuit which will draw the current it requires to run through your body. From 1 ampere can be fatal.
Got shocked holding 3 neutrals in one hand but it hit multiple points some one ran another circuit through a light and it was still hot. My mistake should have tested it all but I trusted someone else to say power was off while I was at the breaker.
Neutral hurts the most because it drags you in. But it all matters on if you grabbing the wires or either touching something with the rest of your body
I’m confused: when the second point is earth…how is it completing the circuit after it hits the earth ?
Good to know stuff. Thanks Justin
Needed this because something about being told neutral is safe just doesn't sit right with me
so ... in a old bone dry wood attic with dry boots on i can grab the hot wire directly and be fine ?
this seems loco especially with the ac part , but there are birds on lines. not saying you are wrong , but i dont believe you enough to test this myself.
I’ve seen a star connected transforme which wasn’t connected to ground (347/600 volts) common, this allowed the neutral to have a voltage which was 347 volts if touched with a person & ground. The job had been inspected by authorities & electrician 😳 😱⚡️
The video makes it sound like you can NEVER be shocked by just touching the black "Hot" wire with one hand. So if I touch the black "Hot" wire as you did at 1:07 in the video and I'm standing barefoot on the ground or in a puddle of water I won't be shocked? Wouldn't the current try to pass through me to ground and back to the transformer?
Awesome break down
Good information as always.
Hey Dustin can you mKe a video on shunt trip??
So we're using the word bonded instead of connection?
Shared neutrals between 2 separate circuits.. neutral can shock you... if there is a load on separate circuit and your kneeling on ground you will get hit
Becoming a conductor is exciting... said the musician ... the electrician said I agree...
Very good advice, I have also become a hand in the pocket guy! lol
Just yesterday i was servicing an exhaust fan and i touched the body of the fan and nothing happened to me i touched the motor to see if it was warm and i cant making connection to the body of the fan and boy did i get “shocked”
Can you do a video about the new code book?
I'd say wrong question, the start question is can a neutral be live carrying current, and of course it can, it has to in order to complete the loop. Doesn't matter where you are in the loop, if you insert yourself, shocks can happen, regardless of wire color/name.
These types of videos and reading comments like these are the reason why as a handyman, I tell my clients that I don't work in electrical panels, and I don't do electrical in walls, because I know enough to know that I don't know enough.
Still, I love to learn, and I'm seriously interested in becoming an electrician. At 44 years of age, is it worth getting into it now?
a white wire isn't necessarily a neutral, and you don't necessarily have to be touching a wire to be grounded. nicely explained.