Trope Talk: Are We The Baddies?
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- Опубліковано 19 лип 2024
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A staple twist, a very juicy character revelation, and the beginning of a lot of very fun character arcs! Today let's discuss what happens when a protagonist suddenly realizes the side their on ISN'T actually the side of good!
Got a favorite example I didn't bring up? Very understandable since I leaned very heavily on like three stories in this one - anyway, drop it in the comments!
EXAMPLES IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER: She-Ra and the Princesses of Power, Promare, Avatar: The Last Airbender, Carmen Sandiego, Star Wars, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, Spider-Man 2, Kung Fu Panda 2, Transformers Prime, Mortal Engines, Castlevania, Daredevil (netflix, not affleck), Tangled: The Series
Scheming Weasel, Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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Maybe the real villains were the friends we made while we were being indoctrinated as children.
“…along the way.”
Brilliant
So this is why I don't have any childhood friends.
I have to assume this was a She-Ra reference.
Maybe we were not the villains even though the indoctrination we got as children said we are.
Protagonist: “I love squishing kittens with warm hugs!”
Villain: “Yes, *COUGH* yes, that’s exactly what we’re doing here.”
All you need to know is to Squish That Cat
That Had crying and questions my hearing at the same time.
Enthusiastically evil villain: "WHAT? That's bullshit. I signed on specifically to squish kittens into jam...with my boot."
I’m now picturing a story where an “evil” boss gets a super powerful but very naive and innocent sidekick and he slowly fills his evil lair with cute and pretty things to appease him.
First comes the little kitten he picks up, then another, then a whole litter, then come the puppies, and before you know it, the evil lair is now half bad guys HQ, half orphanage and animal shelter.
Bonus if it’s a morally grey story where the “good guys” they fight are actually at the behest of a totalitarian government.
@@openthinker6562 I’m begging you to write this.
"In real life you can't judge a book by its cover, but in fiction that is what the cover is there for." True words to live by.
So, technically, we can judge a literal book by its cover?
@@kenyaholloway-reliford8213 "Don't judge a book by its cover" is amazing life advice that I wholly ignore while book shopping
@@kenyaholloway-reliford8213 well, judge some first few pages if you want to be careful
@@kenyaholloway-reliford8213 yOu judge a book by a cover then you read the descripryion if this passes the test you may leaf through a random page if you are still satisfied buy the book
@@kenyaholloway-reliford8213 "Don't judge book by it's cover"
artist who worked on this cover for 2 weeks: 🤡
“Growing up, we were taught that the Fire Nation was the greatest civilization in history, and that somehow, the war was our way of sharing our greatness with the rest of the world. What an amazing lie that was. The people of the world are terrified by the Fire Nation. They don’t see our greatness. They hate us!“
-Zuko’s “It Turns Out We’re The Baddies” speech to Ozai
That sound like Athens, Sparta, Rome, ...
@@kerwinbrown4180 Literally everywhere in history.
@@imperialinquisition6006 Yes, it is an often repeated trope in history.
Ozai: (Zappy Zappy Doom Shot intensifies)
Zuko: (Martial Arts Uno Reverse Card)
Ozai: 😡
@@kerwinbrown4180 Nazi's, British, France, really anyone with a big/medium sized empire.
This trope is so much more powerful when the protagonist actually questions the worldview they held, rather than just swaps over to the other side without thought.
Reminds me of the... Starwars battlefront 2 campaign. XD
When you play as that elite squad on the moon of endor, and you see the deathstar explode with the emperor. You continue on, get told something bad happens.
2-3 missions later, and you (An elite squad, that has no doubt done some pretty horrific shit) suddenly switch to the rebels.
Like... what?
It didn't help either that they originally advertrized the game as FINALLY hving an empire focused campaign.
Or decides to stay like
Dr Lawrence Gordan in Saw.
@@tnecniw Well, having your own _loyal_ homeworld destroyed on the orders of a dead man would do that.
Naruto v Pein
@@Yardnoc3103 i think narutos case is more doubling down, he questions his worldview for a whole 5 minutes and then decides to become hokage and keep perpetuating all the issues from the past
"If redemption arcs are only for characters who haven't really done anything too bad, they're not really redemption arcs, they're self-indulgent angst arcs."
OH MY GOD YES THANK YOU RED
zuko's "redemption" arc in a nutshell
@@capybaraandwatermelonenjoy8208 Zuko... Did bad things though? He mistreated and put his crew in danger while supporting an evil empire, burnt cities down, partook in killing aang and imprisoning his father figure, and betrayed his own allies (who were evil but not as far as he knew) multiple times. Not because of any sense of good or morals, but for his own benefit.
Based Red
@@capybaraandwatermelonenjoy8208 I haven't finished ATLA but I was surprised that Zuko had a redemption arc later in life due to how baleful and myopic he was in the parts of the show I watched.
Felt like an antagonist to me tbh, not mature, but redeemable...? Debatable. And debate did the show do.
That's honestly what probably makes him a great character, his whole personality seems to have changed for the better gradually, not unlike the gradual improvement seen in irl personal development. He went from both a misguided and intentionally selfish soldier to, as fans seem to have made him out to be, a patient and compassionate leader. Can't imagine a more believable redemption.
@@nin2494 if you enjoyed Zuko's redemption, you'd definitely enjoy Fresh Precure then. The 6th ranger of that team had grown up under the rule of an oppressive tyrant who was able to dictate when ppl died and what they could do. The general in question risked her entire life to beat a magical girl trio going so far as to befriend the pink lead but it all failed and she died after a climatic fight.
Weirdly enough Bastion from Overwatch is a great example of this. He's a war bot mass produced and ununique, he gets shut down mid battle only to awake 20 years later by a bird nesting on him and the battlefield has grown into a forest. He still has the directive to destroy the nearby city and kill as many humans as possible so he marches towards it through the forest, along the way encountering things that start to awaken a personality and sense of free will, like hearing a woodpecker and mistaking it for gunfire which leads to him destroying a section of forest and being upset when the wildlife that didn't mind his presence before now runs in fear. Eventually he overrides his directive and returns to live peacefully in the forest with his pet bird.
Until you face him in game and suddenly he loops right back around to being evil again
This short story had made me cry
Bastions more commonly known as the "I am not a gun" trope. A weapon with a soul as it were or intelligence to question why they kill and fight and decide: Nah, I don't like that at all.
He’d later take up rent with Torbjourn. (along with his daughter).
If anyone is interested for an analysis by a lovely crying mess, mr. TB Skyen has a lovely video on that cinematic (it's called The Last Bastion)
"Are the orphans enjoying the new playground?" This is something I never heard a villain say, ever.
A contemporary villain would understand how easy and great for PR it would be to say that, and then go back to their unethical diamond mine or whatever.
@@emilysmith2965 Well, the villain would need more money to make more playgrounds after all.
Actually if villain can make orphans feel safe, happy and needed, they will follow him for the rest of their lives XD
@@kohinattosru8587 I finished watching Arcane some time ago, and this comment I find true.
But that would be cool as fuck, either for a breakdown just before the final fight for showing that he can care about somethings, or as a ironic horrible line after murdering a bunch of orphans.
I love the low-key roasting of the “pretty people are the good guys” trope in the first half of the video.
And the double whammy of "the only reason I stopped being evil/good is because I'm horny for the hot people on the other side". So, if the evil agent wasn't particularly attractive you wouldn't have considered that they maybe have a point?
Yeah, it’s dumb. I always make my protagonists “ugly” by the standards of the world they’re in. Either they’re deeply bothered by it every day with psychological dysphoria or couldn’t care less and poke fun at the “fair skinned, stick thin, pretty perfect” character.
@@itwasidio1736 imo one extreme is just as bad as the other.
pretty may be good but evil is sexy
@@gerardmontgomery280 you. you get me.
Minion: Boss? Are we evil? We have skulls, our castle looks like a mess of spikes and we have those firebreathing dragons.
Me: No. Once again we are not evil. We are stoics. The skull should remind us and the enemy that we are going to die. Our castle has thorns BECAUSE we don't want that our dragons overlords land on our towers. I would love to have nice normal towers but dragons can't read and thorns are the best way to tell them "don't land here, please".
"We're _intimidating._
"If our dragon-and-skull army _loses,_ and the winners print the next edition of history textbooks, _then_ we're evil."
"Also the sheer near endless amount of undead in your lower ranks is the traitors that nearly destroyed our city from within."
"Why did we have so many of us citizens rebel? I mean you been nothing but a fair and generous ruler to many of us. Hell I've even seen you forgive some of your captains for failing you."
"A bunch of beautiful elves and humans told them to."
@@BrotherVoidBomber "Plus you can't have casualties when your troops are already dead!"
"Now, get back in your magitek warmech that despite existing in a high fantasy setting gives off serious Nazi vibes and get back on patrol"
@@hackr6751 There were no people in camps though except for dogs and robots.
"Sometimes when a character realizes they're the bad guy, instead of flipping to be more heroic, this actually causes them to double down."
As Jeff Winger said, "Now that I realize that that was my goal... I can really roll up my sleaves and get it done."
Which episode was that again? I haven't watched community in ages
@@ludi3444 I think it's "The Psychology of Letting Go" from season 2 among the early episodes
The one where pierce’s mom dies
this comment was so streets ahead
Too far gone, can't go back
-sunk cost fallacy
I like the trope of “Are we evil?” “Well… we’ve done some horrible things, but these rebels did this” “yeah that was pretty fucked, but we have to be better than them”
The Black Company: the trope
Describes Israel
@@Nanajsiuz also every other country that engaged in colonisation and needed an excuse to suppress or massacre the native population.
@@thekinginyellowmessiahofha6308 ahh the black company, a term referring to stupendously bad corporations, popularised by Japanese news outlets in the 1990s.
Red: "...or a single conversation with a suspiciously beautiful rebel."
Video: Adora getting starry-eyed over meeting a horse for the first time.
...I mean, yeah, I guess it fits!
I mean, Swiftwind is arguably the most rebellious of all rebels.
What are the others rebelling against? The EVIL Horde. What is Swiftwind rebelling against? Unjust hierarchies and horse internment everywhere, including within the rebellion.
@@r.pizzamonkey7379 Swift Wind is an anarchist and I will die on that hill.
Are they even qualified to call them self rebels? Like they are literally a government A fighting against a government B. If anything the Horde should be called a rebellion considering they are the ones fighting against established governments.
Why am I suddenly reminded of Centaurworld?
I thought that part was hilarious!
8:38 Katara: Aang, I need you to help me avenge my mother's death by killing someone.
Aang: Killing is wrong, you should choose forgiveness.
Katara: ..... Zuko, I need you to help me-
Zuko: I'm already packed.
Honestly, that's my favorite episode. What's more, Aang was wrong - that guy didn't *deserve* forgiveness - he didn't make any attempt to atone for his actions, he just tried to manipulate Katara into killing the person who oppressed him.
OTOH, at the end, this exchange made me break down crying - it was just that good:
Katara : But I didn't forgive him. I'll never forgive him.
Katara : [to Zuko] But I am ready to forgive you.
Aand woeded it wrong, that guy doesnt deserve that agnowledging and being on kataras conciousness.
Virgin Aang "nOUUUUUU U CAN'T KILLERONI NOUUUUU!!1!"
Vs
GigaChad Zuko "Yes, let's go"
@@hotspurre Forgiveness is given not earned, so whether the guy deserved it or not doesn't matter at all - what matters is whether Katara is capable of forgiving him. Aang argues that forgiveness would be good for _Katara_ and I'd say he's right.
@@gagagegegigigogogugu The thing is, yes Aang was right in the end, but Katara didn't get there because he lectured her about it. She needed someone to be with her while she figured it out for herself. Someone who could understand her pain and anger and stand with her while she worked it out. Zuko could be that person when Aang couldn't.
"Boss, why do we call ourselves the Kitten Squishers?"
*A cloud of psychic kittens causes horrific violence*
"That, minion, is why. We must protect the world from this menace!"
I imagine it works like a false hydra
@@dluxajalt explain
@@itscznben8728 the false hydra is a decent enemy that makes everyone forget IT and the people IT KILLS.
The Flergen scene from The Marvels
@@itscznben8728I... dont remember it.
"it's never too late to stop digging" is SUCH good advice.
It's extra fun when the darkly dressed and spooky faction is actually the good side, and the high and pure faction is evil.
Shadowbringers?
Oh, also Bayonetta.
@@creampop8553 I would not call Bayonetta good. She fights fore here own reasons. She might protects people she cares about but I would not call her a hero.
are they acuttly story besides Tyranny that do that ? i mean really ?
Yeah, that sounds like real life
A good irl example: one of the doctors running human experiments at Auschwitz did everything in their power to save as many people as possible. Basically, he did some messed up things to be a doctor at Auschwitz and told to do human experiments. But he had his own “wait, holy shit, this escalated a lot more than I’m comfortable.” But he was already neck deep in literal Nazism, with no way out. And further, if he left, someone who was enthusiastic about that would replace him. So what did he do when he realized he was one of the baddies? He started making up bogus experiments. “No no no you can’t take these people for the amputation experiment. I need them for my very important work.” Meanwhile, behind closed doors he did nothing to those people. In the Nuremberg trial, he was the only one to be released with all charges dropped because the Holocaust survivors vouched for him and testified on his humanitarian actions.
If I remember right the story is referred to as “the good man of Auschwitz.”
So really, an “are we the baddies” moment doesn’t need the character to defect. They may just start to try to limit the damage that they can.
Do you know the name of the doctor?
@@mr_girr3488 Hans Wilhelm Münch, and it wasn’t the Nuremberg trial, it was the Auschwitz trial in Kraków, Poland, where they tried 41 of the former staff of Auschwitz. Also, he wasn’t just a doctor, he was specifically an SS doctor. He was the only one out of all the people tried to be acquitted of all charges.
The experiments he did he would drum up as these terrible inhumane things, and then instead he’d be doing, for example, relatively harmless experiments with malaria, to see if people are immune or not. (He still had to show some work after all.)
Didn't he develop dementia and start saying some pretty screwed up stuff?
Oh wow! That’s really interesting.
This would make a really good movie similar to Schindler's List (Oskar Schindler being the other 'good man of Auschwitz'.
It can also be interesting to have the newly-defecting hero "run out" of trust.
After believing in the evil empire their whole life and suddenly learning of its evil side, they're so shaken they can't really trust the rebels entirely either.
They end up repeatedly questioning the rebels' actions and prying into every possible secret because they were burned by trusting the empire and now feel the need to ensure the side they're on isn't hiding something evil as well.
This, of course, makes the rebels trust them way less.
Maybe they even end up splitting from the rebels and going off on their own for a bit.
It’s surprisingly rare to see a story where one of the characters independizes (is that a word?) and fights the big bad by themselves, obviously not defeating the bad guy by themselves, but maybe if they’re a side character the main heroes take some time to find this mysterious independent vigilante and convince them to join the good guys team, or maybe they’re the protagonist and we see them fight smaller fights like attacking main resource lines or causing chaos in enemy lines to weaken the evil corporation, and in the ending we see the protagonist watching from afar as the rebels defeat the main villain, knowing damn well that victory wouldn’t be possible without them
Starscream from Transformers Armada is an interesting take on this actually.
He doesn’t actually doubt the Autobots, but the Autobots have such an astounding level of doubt for him that when some things start to go wrong, they blame him, and he kind of just dips out of spite. (something this variation is kind of known for doing.)
"If redemption arcs are only for characters who haven't really done anything too bad, they're not really redemption arcs."
Amen.
that doesnt seem to be necessarily true, atla makes it clear zuko isnt the worst the fire nation has to offer
@@landofthehazymist The chance for redemption is not based on the severity of one's past sins, it's based on one's remorse and desire to change.
Even Azula or Lord Ozai could have been redeemed if they had wanted to change. There is never a point where someone is past saving.
@@landofthehazymist But he did many bad things.
Sure, he is relatable and never went too far (he didn't kill a pregnant woman for selfish reasons, for example) but he wasn't just a good person who was misguided, he did selfish and bad choices when he knew it.
The point is, he was unheroic enough for this transformation to have an impact.
@@landofthehazymist zuko is a great example of the balance - compare Zuko’s actions to, say , Shadowweaver from the new SheRa.
SW has done WAY worse, so if they’d lived for a redemption arc, there were some fans who were not happy about how “easy” redemption would have been.
@@ahobimo732 This is true if you accept the change, lots of people won't accept it though, me included. I believe that bad deeds should not go unpunished, so when you are having a redemption arc for a character, if the characters bad deeds reach a certain point I don't want them to actually succeed in their transformation since that generally means all the bad stuff they did is brushed under the rug. Which is very distasteful to watch, if a character does a lot of bad things it is more satisfying to just have them outright die than to be absolved for what they did since justice should be upheld. The only acceptable way to do it for readers like me is to have the character slowly be accepted as changed but not right away. Like for a cliche example they could be residing in a remote village where no one knows about their past, where they help people for a long time, so in a way their punishment is the loneliness of not being able to go to their home because people will recognize them and they are simultaneously making up for what they did with the good deeds they are doing. it can't just be a change of heart, they have to physically be doing good things to make up for what they did or readers like myself generally get repulsed.
"It's never too late to stop digging". Words to live by, not just regarding villainy.
The only career I can think of where that doesn't work is Archaeologists! ;)
@@jon-paulfilkins7820 That would present, some challenges for sure XD
@@jon-paulfilkins7820 also construction contractors.
Stanley Yelnats
@@jon-paulfilkins7820 until they reach the core of the earth
or like some really gross thing
idk
im not an archaeologist im too stupid for that
"Are we the baddies?" Asks the skull masked wearing soldiers of the OSP Empire, adorned with their national flag of a surprisingly violent animal
To be fair, the Imperium of Man kinda subverts this trope by lacking goodies to switch sides to.
Imagine an Empire that marches under the Flag of a Honey badger. Hufflepuff has had enough of being side character and they’re going to be main characters even if it means being the main characters of a post apocalypse!!!
@@nanoblast5748 There used to be goodies (stuff like the interex)
The imperium killed them
@@nanoblast5748 well people desert to the Tau. They might not be good in a conventional sense but at least you don't need to worry about your next meal (and if the meal contains your neighbor Dave)
Podcast reference. Nice.
I love that She-Ra doubles down on this in that Adora ended up being a tool of TWO evil empires in the story. Her indoctrination by Light Hope with all the heroic tropes she craved was so so good
"I never wanted to be a hero. I won't be remembered as one" is still a gut-punch of a line no matter how many times I hear it.
If you'd told me when they first announced a rebooted She-Ra that it would end up being one of the best animated shows I'd ever seen, I'd have looked at you funny, but man did the writers knock it outta the park.
My only issue with the show was that I didn't really care for the animation style. Still, when I was able to push past that, I actually really liked the writing.
Which is kind of funny, because I think adult males are definitely not the target audience, lol. It's a good show, though, and it genuinely suprised me with the quality of the writing.
@@darrylparks4806 Well if you told me that League of Legends would release a show made out of solid diamond with very few flaws (none of which I can think of), I would have run the opposite direction.
I loved how "Am I the baddie?" is done in Fahrenheit 541. He never questioned any of it, but enough things happened one after the other for him to finally question himself and who he is.
Isn't it Fahrenheint 451?
Or it's not the book you're talking about?
@@drunk_famasmf5135 typo on my part
@@drunk_famasmf5135 it's definitely Fahrenheit 451
The "World's Evilest Overlord" mug in the one art bit just absolutely got me, especially coupled with the Overlord's slightly confused expression.
Same, and now I want that mug.
Id buy that merch
He's confused by how to drink out of that with his mask on.
@@louisduarte8763 With a crazy straw, of course.
Evil Overlord be like:
Hold up, you actually thought we were the good guys until now?
Like, all these skull motifs and spikes of doom didn't give you a hint?
Heck, you even practice with us every Thursday the musical number about how evil we are!
Anyone else adore the “I’m evil but use light/purity metaphors to justify it instead of darkness/depravity”? Thinking like Horde Prime and the like. It’s so great
Horde Prime, White Diamond, Emperor Belos
Coincidentally all of those shows have significant LGBT+ rep I wonder what that's about *cough* institutions that demand conformity *cough*
At this point it is almost as abused as the Sauron-like evil overlord. Coff coff... JRPGs cof coff....
I always love them more when there’s a horror element to it, making your protagonists afraid of the light and having to hide in the dark
Light is blinding, it obscures the truth.
The radiance of hollow knight too
"If redemption arcs are only for characters who haven't done anything too bad, they're not really redemption arcs."
FUCKING.
*THANK YOU!!!*
The idea of: "Too evil to be redeemed" has always bothered me, because it comes with an implied message that you don't have to bother trying to fix your terribleness so long as you become terrible ENOUGH. So rather than trying to get better, these people should just double down on their evilness.
Even Darth Vader had a redemption arc and he was really evil, even though you have to deep dive into the lore to see it.
@@Zergonapal not too deep, he did kill all those children in revenge of the sith
@@giantroboteye5371
He thought he was doing the right thing. That by killing them, he was saving them from becoming Jedi
@@darthlazurus4382 Cool motive. Still murder.
@@Lunacorva
I know, I was simply explaining his motives, not justifying them.
Skywalker got off pretty damn easy.
I have an idea for a story, where the main character switches from the bad side to the good side only to realize the “good” side isn’t all that good.
An interesting moral dilemma where there is no "good" side because both sides try to achieve their goal in immoral ways? Sign me tf up
I would say that dishonoured 1 technically falls under this
Warhammer 40k
Imperial citizen: SCREW WORKING THIS 20 HOUR LONG JOB FOR HALF A GRANOLA BAR, IM JOINING THE COMUNIST FISH WEEBS!
t'au: aight, here have a 14 hour long job, in Exchange have a small house and a single plate of food as payment.
-Imperial- t'au citizen: this is the best day of my life, and im 64 years old
and then mc created his good "good" side and then a few years later a third power immerge.
@@pennysantana247 that's basically become the new norm in any "grey" fiction of today though (and also... is how real life works). I love how unique the original commenter's idea was - can't think of any example of "bad to good (but I was wrong)" b/c that's fundamentally different than the now-generic grey-to-grey morality.
What you don’t see very often is a protagonist that defects from the bad side, but instead of joining the good side immediately, they refuse to take anything at face value after their trust was already exploited once. Give me protagonists that know they did wrong, and resolve to question everything so it never happens again.
…now I have another story idea.
yess
Yo, you would really like the second campaign of Critical Role with the Mighty Nein.
Yeah if a character was getting constantly betrayed. They know both sides are bad. But don’t know which side is worse or who they can trust anymore.
Logan, from Logan's Run has some of that
I don't know of main characters like that, but I remember it was a plot point in the Stargate SG1 show, the Jafa is a race of slave soldiers for evil alien overlords the Go'auld. To maintain their power and because they love fashion the Go'auld pretend to be gods, when several Jafa discover their overlords are not gods they start a rebellion and joint Earth in an alliance but it is a very shaky one. Because Earth as a structured system has far more power in the alliance than disorganised group of rebels, the Jafa feel they switched one god for another and when the tension reach a high point they leave the alliance.
"Wait, I'm the villain? Well that makes this MUCH easier!" Is a great follow up to this.
You mean cladius from shakespeare?
Theirs an entire Korean song dedicated to doubling down when you realize your the bad guy. The chorus line of the song is even “I’m the villain, why pretend it isn’t true?”
@@Broomer52 you cannot just say that and not give us the name
> Dr. Horrible has entered the chat
@@Broomer52 What's the name of that song?
Reminds me of one of my favorite exchanges during a TTRPG: "I don't trust the people we're working for." "Neither do I and I'm one of them!"
What is it from?
@@stargazer1998 A ttrpg that the op played.
@@idontknoq4813 I wanted the ttrpg name
Decepticons in a nutshell.
@@stargazer1998 I don’t think you’re going to get that. Because typically TTRPG’s.(table top role-playing games.) or narratively, driven by the players and game master.
This could be from dungeons dragons, Pathfinder, mutants and masterminds, call of Cthulhu or any of the other games.
"Kitten Squishers Inc." makes me go...
"Squish that cat. All you need to know is to squish that cat, and you just gently squish them. That's not comfortable for the cat, or that safe to be honest with you. You can put a towel on the catty and you can squish them with a towel. What you do is scoop her up, a little football carry. Butt in your hand and and just squish her tight to your body. Just squish her really tight to your body. You don't have to worry about hurting a cat, now just squish them against your body. There we go we just made friends with this wonderful little cat. Look at that face, look at that face. Squishing is your best friend when your dealing with a cat. You basically just lean forward and squish them nice and tight, and again i'm just squishing them into myself. We always squish that cat."
You... frighten me.
@@MonkeyJedi99 It's from a video by a vet about how to make sure a nervous cat doesn't escape or claw you. Squishing them doesn't make them less nervous necessarily, but it does make them more compliant.
@@wraithcadmus Not being able to fully breathe would eventually make me pretty compliant.
Even former cops know that one!
I've seen that video! I've tried it too! It sorta works.
Squish that Cat!
"if redemption arcs are only for characters that haven't done anything *too* bad, they're not really redemption arcs."
THANK YOU!!!! SOMEONE SAID IT!! Louder for the people in the back!!!
Edit: Ok....wow. I never expect this much attention to a comment. Well.....allow me to clarify my thoughts on this here.
I agree 100% with a lot of what people have said. Justice is vital, and there are in fact some redemption arcs out there where justice was either entirely thrown to the wind, or the redemption arc was just so poorly mishandled that it created a really toxic precedent for what redemption can be.
But the important thing that we have to remember about forgiveness and redemption is that, often, they are done IN SPITE of the fact that the person deserves complete justice. A great example of this is Zuko. While we never see it in the show (because it WAS conceived as a kid's show originally) there is no doubt this dude has murdered people. He's the son of the tyrannical genocidal monster and ACTIVELY participated in the system. Even though he did show signs of resistance early on in life, he still participated and supported the system, only LATER realizing the 'great lie' that the system was based on. Zuko DESERVED being imprisoned and hated, that is what justice would demand.
But because he was GENUINELY changed by the actions of his uncle and by coming to the realization of what he was doing wrong, he sought genuine change and forgiveness. And if Aang and the rest didn't give him that chance, if they didn't forgive him DESPITE all the horrible things he's done, then Aang would have never found the Sun Warriors, they would have not saved Hakoda and Suki, they would not have learned about the dragons, Aang would not have learned firebending NOR would he have learned about the fire nations "Phoenix plan" with the Earth Kingdom.
Redemption and forgiveness are often given despite the fact that the offending individual deserves justice. And when an individual is GENUINELY seeking to change and atone, they should be given the chance to do so. MERCY sometimes needs to be considered if the person is genuine about change. If they aren't, then throw them to the wolves. But if they have actually changed, they deserve the chance to prove it.
Redemption isn't about completely wiping the slate clean, it's about giving the offender the chance to change and correct their mistakes. (Again, IF they are genuine about change. If they aren't, then this does not apply).
On the other hand, an author could inflict tremendous amounts of pain on their audience if the villainous character keeps ignoring the heroes' pleas to become good, and the villain never redeems themselves.
A big part of that is the understanding that harms are not interchangeable, that no amount of good-deed-doing will ever unmake the mistake. Guilt can be a guide to go forward and do better, but there's no scoreboard, no points, no way back. That's what I love about Roy Mustang & co. in Fullmetal Alchemist. He gets that he's never going to be past Ishbal. He can only try to make sure the next generation never has to deal with anything like that.
I think there are limits on the redemption. The good guys may understand that the former villain who doubled down on villainy is now no longer the villain, but that doesn't mean anyone wants to invite them over for tea
Also, conveniently forgetting that said formerly evil character used to cause massacres for fun, doesn't make it a redemption arc either. It's important to acknowledge the crimes in order for them to be redeemed in the first place.
@@akirajotaro yep - I particularly like the talk about redemption from Leverage Redemption: "You didn't just do one thing wrong; you've been working on the wrong side for a long time, right? So you don't get to just do one thing and claim you've repented."
What sometimes grind my gears is that when someone realize they are the bad guys and switches sides, but somehow they seem to be the only one. Like the movie about the stormtrooper that became a rebel fighter because a friend died, but suddenly he is killing all his previous coworkers like they are irredeemable. I am like dude... werent they your friends and coworkers before? shouldnt you at least hesitate before you kill them all?
I mean… considering they were actively shooting to kill and it was a “life or death” zero sum game thing…
@@phastinemoon yeah but not portraying the struggle of the side switcher at all? In the heat of the moment is one thing, but overall it’s more interesting for it to introduce elements of guilt and confusion
@@maddieb.4282 that is the beauty of the sequels
Yes! This is something that kinda bugged me in Shera. I just kept thinking "Hey, aren't the people you're shooting at also people who were indoctrinated into the Hoarde just like Adora? Are we just never gonna adress that the person you're trying to kill could have easily been your friend (Adora)?".
@@liligirl9012 Good thing that was a kid's show so nobody ever dies, because Adora never hesitated when fighting them
This always reminds me of that scene in the Mandalorian where Grogu is captured, and they literally put baby-size handcuffs on him.
Like... WHY ARE THERE BABY-SIZED HANDCUFFS?! Why does the Empire have things like that? And how are Stormtroopers complacent with arresting a child?
"And how are Stormtroopers complacent with arresting a child?" How were men complacent with loading children into train cars? If you can stomach it read Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning. It's not a fun read and I could only read a few pages at as time, but it answers that question "how could people do this?" Real life can be much more horrifying than fiction.
Aren’t there several cases of alien races being particularly small like that, though?
@@Littleman3240
Yeah. Pretty sure Watto had similar sized wrists.
Because of Jedi recruiting literal children into their white robe fanatics inc. and kept calling themselves "The Rebels" when they were terrorists. Also do not even mention the Deathstar, because it is just like the USA using nukes on Japan.
@@chemplay866 Yo dude. Nuking Japan was wrong. In basically like, all of the ways. The Empire didn't even have the excuse of not knowing what the result of BLOWING UP AN ENTIRE PLANET would be.
Walker from spec ops the line is the best example I've ever seen of this. He commits literal war crimes and doesn't realize he's doing bad things because "eyes on the mission" and also as a fourth wall break thing of hey its a video game and it fun to shoot things even when it's civilians right?
I remember seeing the warning on MW2's "No Russian" and wondering if I missed something after I played through and the mission ended. I played through a couple more times and then it hit me.
No matter how hard I tried, some of the NPCs would always steal some of my kills.
The horror...
Anyone else find it hilarious that one of the example characters that Red doodled for this episode is basically just Team Galactic’s Cyrus from Pokemon?
indeed, especially since Cryus gives no shits about being evil.
@@samuelmalaby7498 while his ancestor was very nice, if stern woman
N from Gen 5 part 1.
@@barrybend7189 he too
@@joaocisne556 she's a bit emotionally constipated but she's pretty cool
I do like Catra's "Duh, we are evil, we are called The Horde" moment because it shows that redemption it's not only about the realization, it can come from many places. Mainly, getting what you want (becoming top Dog at the horde) then realizing you're still empty and now you've lost everything you are for, especially since Catra hates abandonment, so Scorpia leaving her was the nail that broke the camel's back
It’s the straw that broke the camel’s back. Or the final nail in the coffin.
@@daralic2255 thats the point of it itd cslled a malaphor
@@shadow-faye Except they're often done unintentionally.
@@r.pizzamonkey7379 true, somewhat doubt that one was unintentional though
Ese wey que haces aquí jsjsjs
I wonder if there's any story where the protagonist realizes KittenSquishers Inc is bad, so they join the Anti-KittenSquishers...only to find that the Anti-KittenSquishers are bad too, just in a different way. So they leave that group too and find themselves stuck in the middle of a villain vs villain war.
Have you read "Worm", by Wildbow? I would somewhat describe it that way.
The protagonist wants to be a hero, but is driven into villainy by *spoilers* but eventually decides because of *spoilers* that the villains they are working for are too evil, and becomes a free agent for some time after righting some wrongs.
For a shorter story with a similar sort of feel, there is "Not Even Bones". The main character can't trust either KS Inc or Anti-KS Inc and goes their own way.
In both the main character definitely ends up in villain vs villain wars with the occasional clash with the authorities as well.
@@theInsaneRodent Interesting. I'm so gonna check those out.
@@Toshimi1043 note that neither of them is a particularly happy story.
"Worm" is a completed web serial of ~3.75 million words (or over 20 normal books worth of content) (and with a sequel that I have not read).
"Not even Bones" is a completed trilogy of novels that also is being made into a Webtoon, I think.
Yep. It’s called “Clockwork Angels”. Based off the Rush album.
This is more or less the reveal at the end of the Hunger Games. Controversial at the time, but one of the reasons HG remains much, much better than most of the imitators that tried to chase its success.
I love using this in D&D campaigns, like you would think that the kingdom that uses healing and likes purity tends to be on the good side. But it is amazing how many fingernails and blood through enhanced interrogation of the impure extended through healing you can get.
The body will be intact at the end, but the mind and spirit so broken the body is only an empty shell
13:19 "Just look at the half a million think pieces on why Zuko is the coolest including the one you're watching right now"
I think a decent amount of these Trope Talks fall into this category. Wait, is this series a long gambit to tell us all the ways Zuko is cool?
Well Zuko's not in Reboot, so... :J
@@happmacdonald Crossover time.
@@happmacdonald there must be some ATLA/reboot crossover fanfics out there.
More reasons Zuko is cool:
1. He had a badass boat.
2. He seems like he has good tastes in music probably.
3. He traveled around the whole world, that’s pretty cool.
Because he is.
I would love to see a subversion on the "honest hero reports to superior" variant of this, where the boss, who everything has been pointing at being extremely evil so far, reacts with "THEY DID WHAT?!"
You could go a few different routes with it, too... You could have the boss actually being the Big Bad and trying to keep their effective troubleshooter in line at the cost of some of the more-expendable minions, you could have the boss be evil but pragmatic and genuinely horrified by his minions' excesses, or you could have the boss be in the dark on the fact that his minions are evil either due to general cluelessness or just being busy as hell with other stuff. In the latter two, you could even pivot the boss's role in the story from "Apparent Big Bad" to "Mentor".
If you really want to, I'm sure you could even figure out a way of having it be "you don't understand what's actually going on. Have you been skipping classes on metaphysics and the laws of magic, or did someone install malware on your vehicle's cameras?" But that might be less interesting.
They did a version of this in Telltale's Walking Dead, the New Frontier season had the protagonist's brother wind up as the head of security for a survivor community. And in the Walking Dead, survivor communities come in two flavors, Timed Life or Hitler. Actually, over time, they *all* trend towards falling since that's more dramatic, but the ones that stay up longer tend to be the ones willing to do Whatever It Takes. So there's misunderstandings, there's suspicion, there's plenty of shooting, and when you finally get to Javi's brother, he can't believe what his own guys have been doing and you have to deal with the internal politicking of the New Frontier rather than just blasting them all.
There's an extra credits series on the Japanese army prior to WWII which has a bit of this idea. The army basically developed their own ideas regarding how to deal with China and the diplomats and civilian government were stuck trying to pretend they were still in charge of said military to avoid the admitting the army had effectively gone rogue
The closest I can think of is the Earth King in the Last Airbender.
In the original Ip Man, the Japanese general's subordinate shoots one of the Chinese martial artists for taking his previous winnings despite losing a second battle, and the Japanese general threatened that subordinate with death for doing such a thing without permission
The Owl House did this recently, and it was great, because we already knew the kid was been lied to and manipulated, but reality hit him like a baseball bat in one episode, though he had been having small stuff that raised questions in him, and it made it really impactful for him, and thus the audience.
"That's what [Emperor] does - he tricks people. But if it weren't you, it would have been someone else a d then there'd been no one to fight back. So let's do that: let's fight back."
Oddly enough, Spider-Man 3 had a great version of the “spiteful bad guy that just likes being evil.” Eddie Brock had fully justifiable reasons for not liking Peter Parker, but instead of moving on he just doubled down and became a monster. He even says out loud “I like being bad. It makes me happy.”
Thats partially also because the bad stuff brings the selfishness in people to the surface
And suppresses their normal feelings
There's also the "the suspiciously beautiful good guys are also secretly evil" variation.
Spoilers for *So I'm a Spider, So What?* . Read at your own peril.
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The elves fall into this trope, and specifically their leader Potimas. The elves live in a hidden village and live a long time, yadda yadda yadda, you've seen this trope. But it's deconstructed, because they've been around so long and have such powerful magic that they feel they have the right to dictate what happens within and without their borders. Potimas, in particular, has spent most of the series running highly unethical experiments for his own ends. The demon army coming to destroy the free peoples almost seems better in comparison, but it's a rare example where the beautiful people aren't good, and the ugly people *still* aren't good.
@@nathancarter8239 Also mild spoilers for "So I'm a Spider, So What?" Depending on how far into the series you are
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At least the Demon Army has a good reason for their actions. Obviously deliberately getting millions of people killed is still horrible, but their motives are actually a lot less selfish than Potimas's. (Trying to stay vague so it's only mild spoilers instead of BIG spoilers)
GRIFFIIIIIITH
"Isn't that right, Lance?"
"Sorry, Tommy. This is Vice City. This is business!"
Rule 1 of Wheel of Time: "Beautiful" people are good guys. "Very Beautiful" people are bad guys.
Plot Twist: The "squishing" that happens at Kitten Squishier Inc H.Q. is the "You're so cute, look at that face." type and no felines are harmed. They record funny cat videos for the internet and make money off of ads.
The cuteness is collected and condensed and used to power instant death ray guns that will be used to take over the world.
Thanks for the video Red!
They had us in the first half, not going to lie XD
"Love is a very powerful force. Even more so when it's focused into a coherent beam of destruction. . . I'm given to understand the divorce rate goes up with each blast."
@@dynamicworlds1 Naw, these are just heart attack guns powered by cuteness, not love sucking beams from a spell caster.
(Man that was a great comic. I might go back and re-read it, sprite art never gets old after all.)
@@vladspellbinder I was wondering if anyone would even get that reference considering how old it was!
well now i wanna know
The villain doubling down reminds me of the Scottish Play: "I am in blood stepped in so far that, should I wade no more, returning were as tedious as go o'er." It also comes complete with an entertaining self-destructive spiral.
The Scottish play? You mean Macbeth
@@jacobsheehan5775 Yes, that would be the play
"It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it."
--Kreia, KOTOR II
The "are we the baddies" situation interestingly happens in the case of Finn in Force Awakens
It's easy to forget this because it and the rest of his arc was handled pretty poorly, but the reason Finn defected in the first place, was because his bestie-whom he was super hype to go off to war with and kill all the evil people with-straight up dies in his arms, before Kylo Ren tells Finn to start executing civillians. He gets that double dip of 'hey bro you need to keep smashing kittens' right after his best friend got caught in the metaphorical smashing machine.
If I may add, the friendship between Finn and Poe could be seen as ironic since Poe was the one shot Finn’s unnamed friend. That could be an interesting arc: someone deserts from the army their serving, but has a hard time trusting the new army they joined (willingly or unwillingly) because one of them killed his friend.
The Star Wars sequels had so many great ideas the went nowhere. This is another prime example. A former stormtrooper that did bad things, but wants to change could make for a great story, but they went with: Ah well, he's good now.
It's too bad you don't get that from the movie
It's also important to note that Finn still doesn't develop an ideological connection to goodness until much later; for quite some time, his motivation is "run away so I don't die" and signing up with the resistance is a means to that end rather than something he's doing because he thinks it's right. Poe even calls him out on it when they first meet...but recognizes that it's a start, and doesn't try to moralize at him but let him come to it on his own.
It's so frustrating that the sequels have so much good stuff buried in them but are put together so messily. Don't trade creative visions back and forth mid series, kids.
Especially important was the idea that Finn’s arc STARTED to get into the emotional and psychological abuse inherent in a fascist mindset- not having a perspective of a long term future, not having a real sense of self, and being unable to really want or feel things not connected to the order.
And then RoS went for spectacle over substance…
I like to regard the 3rd example as a Macbeth type character. I find being "In blood so far stepp'd that to return would be more tedious than to continue" a super interesting motivation for a villain when paired with a believable personal reason for them deciding to continue.
I mean that's where Darth Vader was, and Luke still brought him back.
@@hypotheticalaxolotl Look again at the dialogue in episode 6.
Kind of also reminds me of Friedhelm Winter from Generation war. Friedhelm has by the end of the mini-series gone from being conscripted into the heer who really doesn't want to be there, by the end he's murdered a whole lot of people. You can tell he doesn't believe in any of this but he doesn't see an out, the closest he comes is helping his brother Wilhelm escape being executed but he still remains in the system fighting for the Nazis until 1945 when he walks out into the open to die to get the Hitler Youth kids to surrender.
@@hypotheticalaxolotl "Obi-wan once thought as you do. You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I MUST obey my master."
@@hypotheticalaxolotl
I don't think Vader was being magically influenced. I think he just didn't have anywhere else to go. He'd burned all of his bridges. Luke having faith in him gave him something he could do with his life other than stay trapped in servitude to the one person in the galaxy who had enough use for him to keep him around.
Man, every time I watch one of red's trope talks I feel like I can write the next best-selling novel.
Then, I realise I don't know the difference between 'might' and 'may'.
in terms of present tense, "may" is generally more likely than "might". in past tense, it's about the same. "we may encounter some turbulence" = "probably keep your seat belt on". "we might encounter some turbulence" = "if you need to get up and stretch your legs, that's probably fine".
realistically, though, it's very unlikely to make a huge difference, and a good editor will catch it if it does.
might:
Power, authority, or resources wielded (as by an individual or group) normally refering to bodily strength but can describe power, energy, or intensity of which one is capable.
May:
The 5th month in the Julian calendar.
They didn’t mention the villain who thinks they’re doing things because they’re morally right but eventually realize they’re actually sadistic, and that’s why a few episodes/chapters ago they burnt down that village, not because they were against the villains principles but because they wanted to see them burn.
*Cough cough Cassandra from **_Tangled:The Series_** Cough cough.*
"You did it for yourself! Took what your heart desired!" - Be'Lakor
and that makes it even harder to defect from all the bad things you've done because if you have a real motive you can try to see the opposite of that motive, but if you're genuinely sadistic, you're gonna want to do what makes you feel better
@@indrickboreale7381 Who's Be'Lakor?
@@hannahmetzger6622 The first Daemon Prince from Warhammer Fantasy. His main job is corrupting people's souls
One version of this trope I really like is the revelation that - instead of the own side being evil and the other good - ALL sides of the conflict are uniquely awful.
But instead of resigning their fate to having to choose some lesser evil, the strike out on their own, carving their own path and rallying an increasing number of like-minded heroes around them to actually make a difference.
Great example of this is commander Farsight from 40k, really inspiring considering how dark that universe is.
What about Raiden from Metal Gear Rising?
Farsight only kinda fits this trope you're describing. All he does is take a collectivist philosophical autocracy which deceives its own citizens on the existence of Daemons, and replace it with a collectivist military dictatorship which doesn't . Granted, the Enclaves are probably the best moral option in all of 40k, but in true 40k fashion, they shouldn't really be seen as the "good guys".
@@burnttoast.2017 MGR doesn't really have many sides to take in its major conflict, though, nor are they super complex. The PMC Maverick that Raiden initially works at is set up as the PMC "good guys" who "increase the peace" and enable a country to develop without severe conflict, and Desperado are the PMC "bad guys" who explicitly profit off of destabilizing nations who can't defend themselves.
But as they start to uncover a conspiracy, it involves World Marshall and Armstrong. *Legally* Maverick can't be involved in the actions Raiden takes against them, as it's considered terrorism. Though the Maverick team still helps Raiden unoffcially, they definitely give him pushback at first before he pushes back harder.
This is really just a critique of America's negligence and abuse of their status as the global hegemonic power.
America allowed systems of mass exploitation to take root within their institutions, and they defend those institutions with fervor because that is what sustains their powerful position.
Anyone who dares oppose the systems in place, including those of exploitation, in any materially substantial manner is labeled a "radical extremist" or "terrorist", which justifies their violent subjugation. Raiden has a similar view at the start of MGR towards the Desperado cyborgs he kills, which even his Maverick coworkers question as inhumane.
Raiden doesn't really reconsider his actual goals or who he should side with, but instead, his own motives and morality. He wants to "protect the weak" at the start and he accomplishes that in a way at the end. His character arc was more about his personal justification for the violence he partakes in, and why that was inherently flawed and covering up a part of himself he didn't want to acknowledge: his desire to kill instilled in him as a child. Even if he wants to protect the weak, he's become strong enough that he can oppose institutions and win, but it comes at the cost of the weaker people that uphold those instutions, voluntarily or not.
Ultimately Raiden takes his actions to prevent war, which is a much more effective systematic killer than his spree of attacks on World Marshall. Maybe he enjoys the killing he partakes in, but he can admit that to himself and still kill for a better reason than simple pleasure. He's making the best out of a terrible situation.
Raiden always opposes Desperado, and really only adds World Marshall and Armstrong on to that list. And his resignation from Maverick is really only out of legal necessity to not get everyone else he works with in serious trouble. Far from a condemnation. He's about to take up a much more personal and difficult battle, that Maverick officially shouldn't be involved in.
It's even demonstrated at the end of MGR that Maverick, like Raiden, is making the best of a terrible situation. They begin shifting away from military contracting, as instead the rescued child cyborg brains are trained in nonviolent labor like construction.
This is definitely my preferred take. I think this route is compelling for a truly heroic protagonist because it's clearly going to be far harder than just picking whichever seems the least evil of several different evils. Bonus points if this genuinely does create hardships for the protagonist and doesn't just all miraculously work out.
You beat me to the Warhammer reference.
Now go enjoy the webcomic "Guilded Age".
And the webcomic "Erfworld"
Also the anime "Attack on Titan"
This always comes back to Zuko, doesn’t it.
Catra seemed to be the star of this one of you ask me
@@pablodonner5213 Why? She was perfectly aware they are the baddies.
Interesting that *Iroh* was acknowledged, too- especially with the 'to protect someone still mired in it' example in the conclusion. After all, the Dragon of the West *was* still a war criminal, and I'd argue that his contribution to the liberation of Ba Sing Se was a culmination of his *own* redemption arc that started before the series did when he broke down after Lu Ten's death.
I'm still waiting for the episode where the only reason Zuko is in the video is due to a list of characters the trope doesn't apply to.
The list is only Zuko.
it seems like that's the only thing Red deems as "Good writing." It's getting more and more apparent that her range of storycrafting is very limited.
And then there's the Backfire Effect. In real life, when someone is confronted with evidence that contradicts their beliefs, they almost always reject the evidence and double down on their belief. The more evidence that they are wrong, the more strongly they will insist that they are right. If the hero works for KittenSquishers Inc and someone tries to tell him that he's working for the bad guys, the hero will work very hard to find reasons to question this information and justify rejecting it. If someone tell him that he's one of the good guys, he accepts that without question. We accept stories where the heroes can be shown the error their ways and change because we like to think we can convince other people that they are wrong, but that's pretty much pure fantasy.
This!! IRL most humans seem to be severely allergic to cognitive dissonance, so if anything happens that makes them question their assumptions or current alignments, many will react with anger and defend the status quo even harder.... Not everybody reacts like this, but it's very common, and I think underestimated in fiction?
@@anna_in_aotearoa3166 unfortunately it looks like there's a much higher percentage of broken people, sheep and order followers IRL than in fiction.
@AeonReign and i find it quite reasonable that those who say such things are who i am referring to.
@@guillermoelnino When you are so up in your own ass, you fail to see the irony.
@@guillermoelnino ,People who use sheep as an insult are generally kind of frustrating.
They can become so proud of themselves for being brave and going against the widely agreed upon dogma that they make their new opinion the dogma and shut down anyone else who questions it.
The two redemption arcs I love the most have to be Zuko from avatars and Catra from Shera. I don't think I need to talk any more about Zuko cause it's been done thousands of times already but I love how Carta keeps digging down into a pit that seems ever more irredeemable, gets betrayed litteraly by everyone she knows, actually gets traumatised by all of her experience and then eventually makes the realisation that she can stop digging. But what I like the most, is that it isn't an easy redemption. The good guys have gone through he'll because of her and so they are very reluctant to trust her for a good part of the ending. It actually takes a lot of effort out of her to convince the others that she changed and that is a thing I also like about Zuko.
6:25 This actually ties in very well with the very real problems faced by whistleblowers in companies, in radical groups or dictatorships. They usually report to the hierarchy first because they assume the wrongdoing is a product of malevolent subordinates.
For example, in absolute monarchies like Ancien Régime France or Tsarist Russia, peasants in revolt usually appealed to the king/tsar first, bc he was seen as a benevolent father figure ill-advised by corrupt ministers. Things could degenerate if they realized the monarch was very much aware and sanctioning or indifferent to these actions.
Heck, the entire American revolution was basically an attempt to get a fair say in tax law, not truly an attempt to break away. (It then got so wildly out of hand that it's still going nearly 250 years later.
That was a common idea regarding lots of monarchies, including the English monarchy. When the American Founding Fathers called out King George III directly, it was seen as a huge deal because that just was not done due to heavy belief in the divine right of kings to rule. No surprise that other monarchies had people doing the same thing.
you don't need to go back that far. just look at Reality Winner, Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowden etc
@@ArthurRex131 England had a Parliament at the time of the American Revolution, with all kinds of laws limiting the monarchy. Calling out the reigning monarch for being a shithead was absolutely a thing, all the way back to 1215 with the signing of the Magna Carta. Of course, most of the people criticizing the monarchy were usually other aristocrats, not commoners. But the point remains that English kings were not considered untouchable, and had to work to maintain the appearance of legitimacy among their subjects.
One reason why blaming problems with monarchies on ministers is a historical trope is that critizing an absolute monarch directly tends to be dangerous, so deflecting the blame onto their underlings can be a safer way to criticize policy.
How about “if I turn good, then everything I built with my life: my family, my status, my belongings, and my identity, will be destroyed”? It’s an interesting debate which is not commonly held in fiction with this trope, but it’s something that would have to be dealt with if this were to really happen to a person.
@Tin Watchman well that’s completely fair, and yes it would be heroic, but it’s never acknowledged. Also it might be selfish, but it’s also basic needs. You are literally abandoning everything you know because you have a hunch that it’s evil. I don’t know, it just seems so black and white that these people take risks or don’t wrestle with these things. My issue isn’t that they turn good, my issue is that they aren’t acknowledged as real problems. It makes the audience feel good in the moment and act like they would do the same, but in reality there is no way that they would do the same. It kinda makes them hypocritical.
I have seen that a few time, and if they take to long to switch the story just hurries them up by having them get betrayed and lose everything anyway. This can create great anti-heroes as they never had the morals to make the right choice but now have revenge as a strong motivation.
“If I apologize, if I repent… everything will come to an end. I'll never get to reach that place.” - Griffith from Berserk
it's more common for those types of characters to be side characters, and i have seen some explored!
in some cases, they live deeply in denial and/or guilt for their work and still do it (although with very much self spiralling issues) by justifying it with reasons. some don't care because for them, whatever life they have is much more important. for example : often, the loyal best friend stays with the MC because they consider the MC one of the most important things in their life despite knowing where they are in the morality spectrum. Think the "I try to be better because you are a shining example of goodness" or "I will protect them from the darker side." characters. these characters often don't become mcs because technically, it's already answered. They are not Paragons, and their morality is steeped deeply into whatever life they have. It becomes self preservation. No one will blame the poor minion soldier working badly for the sake of feeding their family or even only themselves. what else should they do? They can't just run away and leave their entire family in possibly poorer hands. These characters often become morally grey, but not entirely black depending on what they don't want to leave. (If it's status, they are seen as selfish but understandably human, if it's family and/or friends, they're seen as redeemable because they would break out their family if they are seen in better hands because it can be seen as a hostage situation. If it's belongings, depends on what that is but if it's a family heirloom and others? Can be seen as someone clinging to nostalgia or someone who's stuck in the past.)
Tldr many characters that are like that are more often supporting casts instead of the main characters because sometimes its more interesting to see all action and conflict of a paragon split between the morals they uphold as high since characters like that are more likely to break the status quo
@Tin Watchman yep I agree. A lot of trope savvy people want to subvert tropes just because, but I like to inject real world conflict. It’s more of a suggestion
I’d love to see a Are we the baddies story where the hero initially thinks the main government is evil, joins the rebels, and then finds out the rebels goals for when they win are even worse, so rejoin the main government, a lesser of two evils sort of deal
This is what makes She-ra and it's characters so interesting, because they take the time to explore multiple different avenues in that regard. Even "good guys" like Glimmer and Entrapta get to navigate the consequences of this concept. Catra, Adora, Glimmer, Scorpia, Entrapta, Hordak, and even Shadow Weaver have really engaging character arcs when it comes to morality, choices, consequences and what it means to be bad or good. Then there's someone like Bow, whose moral compass has never been skewed liked the rest but what he decides to do with that manages to be just as engaging as the rest.
That scene in the Castlevania animated series when Dracula realizes that he's killing his and Lisa's son is pretty powerful, it's in that exact moment he realizes just how much of a monster that he had become. In the tv show Samurai Jack the character Aishi is raised by her mother the high priestess of Aku to believe that Aku is benevolent and that Jack himself is evil, eventually Aishi realizes that not only is Jack a good hearted person she also sees for herself how much the world suffers under Aku's evil eventually she chooses to oppose Aku along side Jack.
She didn't seem to mind that Jack killed her sisters in her debut episode. I mean, it bothered him he killed a human for the first time ever.
@@louisduarte8763 It bothered Jack because he has a code against killing. Aishi was literally raised on 'Kill the baddies' with a nightmarishly twisted definition of 'baddie'. To kill someone is just a thing you do in her world view. We don't get enough screen time for the two of them to discuss it, so there's some rich narrative ground left fallow there.
Logically to me, it follows that Aishi finds the deaths of her sisters unfortunate, but would never hold it against our Samurai because 'when someone or something tries to kill you, you kill them' is baked into her world view and she's not had anything to make her question it. She clearly didn't understand why Jack didn't kill her, and we never really get resolution on that in terms of morals/ethics from her end. She just accepts that Jack doesn't kill people. We see her at the mountain fight killing what is likely thousands and while she's not going out of her way to do it, she isn't working to avoid it either. Nor does she justify it after the fact as far as we can see. (Usually you get a 'him or me' justification at least) It doesn't need justifying to her world view as far as we see in the tiny bit of screen time we have for her.
Comparatively, we have loads of time to see Jack's world view on the matter of killing. He simply doesn't. The only time he might have questioned it, the one robot opposing him with actual morals? He never learned that, since the entire episode is a tragedy. In the same way an episode showed us a half dozen bounty hunters preparing to ambush Jack and their motivations (of which at least one is intended to be sympathetic) and then he simply dispatches them in the time it takes a drop of water to fall from an icle on a roof to the ground, then moves on without a thought about it. Just like countless bounty hunters we've seen through the series before them.
Goddamn Samurai Jack is a great show...
@@Sorain1 Yeah, it was a real "them or me" situation, and I also remember Jack initially didn't want to kill Aishi's sisters. He even offered to let them walk away.
@@Sorain1 I don't think Jack had any code against killing. He's just been killing robots for so long that by the time he finally kills a human it freaks him out.
@@Canaris4 The robots in Samurai Jack are clearly people anyway. In the Ultra-Robots episode, the villagers they kill to draw him out are robots too, and he doesn't view it as any less horrifying than if they'd been killing humans.
Moses in Dreamwork’s “The Prince of Egypt.” Criminally underrated masterpiece.
After shenanigans and enjoying the good life, Moses manages to meet his former family, who assert that he is not royalty but the son of slaves and (rather outrageously) assume that he’s there to free them. The only thing that really sticks with from that meeting is a recall of the lullaby his mother sang, which he is shown to remember in a previous scene. After a dream that reveals the truth to him about what Pharaoh did, he runs and finds the historical records confirming both his prophetic dream and the circumstances of what the slaves told him. Conveniently, Pharaoh is also there and he doubles down and confirms the records, that he had hundreds of babies murdered because he feared a slave uprising. Moses doesn’t immediately leave because of this, but he does notice the suffering of the slaves afterwards.
How is it outrageous that they assumed that the guy who was the only man to survive the mass murder of infants, during a time where the reason of the mass murder of infants is because a man is prophesied to lead the Jews in a revolt, is not said guy who is coming to save them?
Not exactly sure how The Prince of Egypt constitutes as "criminally underrated"; while I'm not sure about its monetary success, especially for the most expensive animated film at the time (if memory serves), it certainly isn't lacking in renown from what I've seen.
That movie is a great example of variation 2 (Moses) and 3 (Rameses) of an "are we the baddies" moment
@@psychsephone9832 I guess I do wonder how he felt once he and the Hebrews began slaying Zipporah's fellow Middianites later, of course - but that's somewhat beyond the scope of the film.
@@jondoe7036 "Criminally faded" might be more accurate
Would have been personally offended if Zuko wasn't at the top of this list, but I'm also kind of disappointed the Red Hat mooks from "Box Trolls" didn't get even a flash reference. They literally got introduced mid-conversation of, "You know, this would be a really terrible thing to do if we were doing it against People. Good thing box trolls are so irrevocably evil that they can't even comprehend goodness! ...Right? Or am I being too philosophical here?" XD
Honestly, this was me watching her amnesia talk and Rise of the Guardians not coming up at All-
I love that this video is basically Trope Talk: She-Ra 😆
It's accurate though, you've got Adora, Scorpia, Entrapta, and finally Catra all along the spectrum. Catra is one of the best written characters I've ever seen, and the fact that they actually sold her redemption arc and made it feel earned just blew me away.
I love how “Kitten Squishers Incorporated” was used as the example empire in a video with so much Catra in it!
Adora has very strange ideas about what kitten squishing means.
Has Red done a "the mascot animal's secret" trope? Like them being evil, being human, being super powerful, having 1 very specific ability such as teleportation or mimicry etc?
Them actually filming a space tv reality show without the protagonists or antagonists knowledge.
@@personnemay2692 binan koukou?
Perry the Platypus?
Kyubey is a very interesting example
Yoruichi in the first like 30 or 40 eps of Bleach comes to my mind immediately
As a history major, there are some people have designs for their armies I wonder if they knew they were the baddies
could you give some examples? I think soldiers need to look menacing and formidible because that is their job. always a fan of finding new uniforms from history.
Like German SS having literal skull motifs on all their stuff?
@@loreofmetal5604 Yeah, the SS lmao
Totalists are self-aware.
I absolutely love the term of “an inshittening arc”
Hiccup from How To Train Your Dragon seems to have this realization twice in the movie. First, when he discovers Toothless and regretfully says, "I did this," and again after the Test Drive sequence when he says, "Everything we know about you guys... is _wrong_ ." But what I also find interesting is when Stoick has this realization in the TV series, especially since he's personally killed hundreds if not thousands of dragons.
Oh yeah Stoick went through something like this for sure.
In the first movies climax it must have been incredibly difficult for a guy like him to admit his perspective was wrong, then apologize to and cooperate with Hiccup. Yet he did, and imo a great character became an awesome one.
Especially after we learnt from the second movie that he was the sole survivor of a dragon attack AND his wife was supposedly killed by a dragon.
Kind of re-contextualizes his initial fear/hatred of Dragons, as well as his desire to protect his village/family from them.
Thats not really an "are we the baddies" though, literally all anyone has ever known is being attacked by the dragons.
Also the humans never instigated anything as far as I remember.
Nobody aside from the dragon overlord is actually the bad guy or objectively wrong.
Yeah, but it's less "are we the baddies?" and more "you're not the baddies". Because up until that point, the dragons kept attacking the villagers and they were defending themselves against them. But because of their constant attacks, the villagers saw them as nothing but ravenous beasts bent on erasing them off the face of the Earth
God, Zuko's arc really is just the perfect example of so many tropes. I'm so glad I got to watch it play out firsthand.
That show in general gets brought up as a good example in like every other video about any aspect of story. Its a freaking masterpiece.
I'm convinced from this show that Avatar has every trope in it now.
Worm comes at this from the reverse. (Spoilers related to this trope specifically, but there's so much to the story it's still well worth a read).
Taylor becomes a Supervillain and eventually rationalizes "Are we the GOOD guys?" after learning more about the hero organization, but this is subtly framed as mostly her unable to cope with a hero organization that isn't a paragon of virtue, but rather a bureaucracy and superpowered police force with good PR that broadly tries to keep the peace. She begins to equivocate decisions the villains make with the heroes making deals, turning blind eyes, bending rules when they can etc, and says the PRT (Hero org) is "Just another gang". The presence of some really bad cops on their payroll also reinforces this view and causes it to crystalize. Because she operates outside the law, her vigilantism is also brutal, swift, and effective, compared to the PRT which operates by rules (when they're at their best) and this has the impact of lessening the PRT's legitimacy in the city as they slowly run out of incidents they are handling until peoples only experience with the PRT is inefficacy, scandal, and 'it's justified to keep the peace' morally questionable decisions. This is further complicated by the fact that Taylor has outright annexed territory and declared that she is the law there (albeit, simply her declaration), and so continually spams the PRT with "Whats the difference between us? The difference is I'm effective, you aren't. The difference is i'm not pretentious. The difference is I don't have people like Armsmaster and Shadow Stalker on my payroll" when they question her, and they reply "Well, what about Hellhound and Regent?" and she says "Well thats complicated and they've got reasons for being so messed up. You guys though, you have no reasons, you're just the bad guys." and then the PRT thinks "Are you just messing with us?".
In her speech to Legend she eventually rejects the "Villain" label and says that she no longer believes in Hero or Villain as terms that make any sense. This worldview is shaken when she has a conversation with Clockblocker, another hero, who basically tells her to stop "Whatabout"-ing and simply justify her own behavior and she finds she can't do so. Nonetheless the PRT is an organization in dire need of reform, and most of the Heroes do admit that and come to accept it.
Didn't she also develop a bit of Stockholm trying to, ahem, "go undercover" after at least a year of being bullied by her former friend? First positive human interaction she has and it's from a bunch of robbers.
Admittedly the Undersiders aren't that bad of people, but still
Always nice to see somebody talking about one of my favorite superhero stories ever.
More people need to check it out.
side effects of reading may include the inability to stop reading until you've finished it, depression (because you've finished it), and being unable to watch a superhero movie without comparing it to worm(and how worm did that trope better and with more nuance).
So please consult your psychiatrist before reading "Worm".
@@planetgodzilla473 Never really got the last part honestly but yeah Worm is awesome
@@planetgodzilla473hey, there is a sequel if you want more. I won't reveal who the MC is for this one but it's certainly a surprise.
@@ZyvenZ Yeah i know about "Wards". i really want to read it but "Worm left me such an emotional mess that I feel like I have to prepare myself emotionally before embarking on that rollercoaster again.
(spoilers maybe)
As for the protagonist of "Wards" i know it is the girl who got Cronenberged but I've tried my best to avoid too many spoilers before I eventually read it.
One of my 'favorite', 'never too late to stop digging' examples,
is the famous case of:
- Inflicting some serious damage by mistake, arguably as the result of some 'less than ideal' mentoring
- actively denouncing the entire concept of morality in response
- deliver this, 'fine, i'm the villain'-double-down, in such an impressive way. The writers/story is altered to make you more likable
'no right,
no wrong.
no rules *for me*
i'm free'
"I Am Legend" (the book NOT the movie) has one of the best twists at the end where the protagonist and the reader realize on like the last 2 pages of the book that despite all his perceived "heroic" actions he had been doing for 100 pages, that he was actually the bad guy the whole time. What was good was that the things he did didn't seem bad until you saw them through the eyes of the "monsters". The revelation crushes his soul.
The movie did almost go for that, but it eschewed that ending for a more generic sort of "kill 'em all" ending.
I think they added it as an alternate ending on the DVD release. I remember seeing something like that. It was a pretty interesting scene.
If you like that you would probably really like Ender’s Game. Very similar story structure there
@@GnarledStaff Ah yes, the "controversial" ending where Will Smith realizes he has been hunting basically a different version of people and all they wanted was their one person back that he stole. Once he realizes this he releases her into their care and leaves with the woman and child he met earlier to go start a new life in a survivor city that still holds some remnants of humanity. It was a great ending where self reflection and turning away from violence saved the main character and enabled him to move on to a new life... so naturally they axed it and had him blow up the vampire-zombies instead so the lady and kid could escape. So disappointing.
The Vincent price version of the movie did much better job of portraying the protagonists moral ambiguity.
the evil empire in One Piece is actually very interesting - the top level is totally evil but locally they're mostly benevolent. some marines actually know to some extent about the evil in their organisation but they still try to do good within the navy.
And even then, they're not the bad guys. Antagonistic, sure, but not the true source of evil in the world; that title belongs to the World Nobles and more specifically the Celestial Dragons.
This is probably because the World Government is a not so subtle representation of the UN. Though predominantly benevolent, everyone knows that there's a few particularly rich and powerful countries in charge and quite some corruption going on behind the scenes. Smaller countries are browbeat into following the rules and complying with demands, chained by threat of trade embargo or invasion if they don't play along.
Because it's based on a real-world example from the present, it's bound to not just be completely evil. The author actually did a pretty good job keeping the analogy at the UN instead of singling out a certain country that has been warmongering for oil and maintaining their currency value, making sure it's not bashing a certain people. (And of course because One Piece is pirates vs marines, many marines have to be good because their main purpose is to fight a predominantly chaotic evil group of raiders.)
@@haenen100 Parallels can also be made to a certain famous/infamous dynasty in Europe that had a hand in political affairs for well over 400 years. Yep, I'm talking about those darn Habsburgs.
Ultimate power corrups ultimately
Nnkm
This is the real tragedy of Dr. Faustus, that he got himself in a hole and refused to stop digging; the tragedy was that because he had made a deal with the devil for his soul, he stopped believing salvation was possible despite the fact that literally everyone was telling him it still was.
There's also the rare "are we the good guys" trope. In a book which I won't spoil now, the unknowingly villainous hero is forced to join those who he believes are the ultimate evil and the source of his woe, only to learn that his foes aren't actually that bad.
I swear, Trope Talk episodes just aren't complete without using _The Last Airbender_ as an example.
Just like Hello Future Me. He also does it.
it's too much of a masterpiece not to talk about constantly
In terms of characters absolutely, while the plot is just, litte kid with the powers that turn him into a demigod whenever he is angry has to waist 3 seasons doing something useless to stop a dictator that has the stupid plan to get advantage from a comet even tho that kid can bend fire too. 🤷♂️
@@sonoio869 Bullshit
@@Nai-qk4vp you are welcome, besides, it is still great
"In real life you can't judge a book by its cover; but in fiction that's literally what it's there for." THANK YOU! I've been saying this for YEARS now! The whole point of a cover is to grab your attention and in a glance make you judge a book to the degree of "I should read this, it looks interesting".
saying "don't judge a book by it's cover" is good for everything but books.
Judging a book by its cover is actually a chapter in my book because it's bugged me for so long. XD
On the other hand i'd love to see more of the aesthetic of "leather binding, here's the title" type of books with no "cover"
Yeah, the overused quote that you "can't" judge by the cover annoys me as well. Cover art and title give the first impression and set the stage for what I may choose to get into...or pass on.
I think a better way to say it, to keep with the original point while not being ironically invalid, is "Don't _condemn_ a book by its cover." You can (and will) come to some form of immediate judgement on seeing a book's cover, and the same is true of the people you meet for the first time. Your brain literally can't NOT do that. But so long as you remember that it's only a tentative, "I don't know everything" judgement, then you can continue to gain new information and come to a more complete conclusion.
It's very not good to learn one or two things about a topic and then immediately decide that you understand it completely and cannot possibly be wrong. Don't do that, please. About ANYTHING in life, be it books, games, people, or "how the world works". There is always room to learn more and realize that you might have had it a tiny bit wrong.
literally when I saw this video title I said to myself "oh boy we're gonna see SheRa and Full Metal Alchemist" and I was not disappointed
Final Fantasy 4 pulls a quick one on you: You are tasked to bring a mcguffin to the hidden village of summoners in the very early game. After killing a mist dragon that kindly asked you to turn back, you go in with the mcguffin, and... it starts a fire over the whole village. Also, that mist dragon? That was the mother of your own party's summoner, and said summoner knows it was you who killed her. Nice job, Cecil! Probably should've thought of that when the king made you a commander as a DARK KNIGHT in the RED WINGS division, huh?
I keep laughing every time "KittenSquishers Evil Incorporated!" gets mentioned.
I read this to the tune of the Doofenshmirtz Evil Incorporated jingle.
@@SpectralDynamite ME TOO
@@SpectralDynamite, as did I. Hence why I added Evil in there.
They sqish them with hugs though!
I came here hoping for a Scorpia reference but the SPOP love is still much appreciated
Scorpia did know what The Horde was about. She did attend the Force Captain training after all. She just didn't have a lot of options before Adora split and Catra was becoming conflicted.
Scorpia's kind of a weird example. She was in the horde specifically for the cameraderie, and didn't care too much about the whole 'taking over the world thing' as long as she had friends. It was her realising that the horde in general didn't really care for each other, and specifically that she'd been lying to herself about the friendships that she had, that made her decide to leave. (With a healthy side order of probably having feelings for Catra at the time, and Catra pretty conclusively squishing those feelings.)
She ra sucks
Scorpia is the love of my life I would like hugs from my strong soft snippy lady
what show is this?
EDIT: nvm, found it. Now to see where I can watch it uwu
My favorite villain realizes their evil then doubles down is in the Joker (2019). After killing the three guys in the subway which started as self defense but ended in willful murder, Arthur decides to lean into the insanity and ended the movie in one of the most cathartic ways possible by killing Murray.
And then he says Zoo wee mama
Any time anyone talks about any kind of really well written villain Zuko is inevitably mentioned and I love that for him
There's always a slightly different path: become the mole/saboteur.
Like the traitor Kallus in Star Wars Rebels.
Meowth from Pokemon
On TVTropes, the "Are We The Baddies?" moment is called a Heel Realization.
Especially in the case of "Am I the baddie?"
Although, I must say, I'm not particularly into that Heel-Face terminology. Never watched MMA, so it took awfully long for me to even remember what they meant, let alone where they came from.
@@pRahvi0 It's not that hard at all, you just have to remember that "face" = good
Also even if you watched MMA you wouldn't know what Face/Heel terminology meant, because Face/Heel terminology comes from pro wrestling (like WWE), not MMA. MMA is a fighting sport while pro wrestling is a performing art
I much much prefer using the "Heel/Face" terminology for characters switching moral sides to the 'redemption" stuff. Much less philosophical baggage and subjectivity and more about the technical clockwork of the narrative. Always kind of annoyed it didn't spread further. "Redemption Arc" is a recognisable narrative formula but gets too broadly applied in fandom discourse.
@@YayaFeiLong I guess it's pretty apparent I haven't watched either. xD
But as easy as it might be to remember that "face" means good, it's rather significantly easier to remember that "good guy" = good and "baddie" = bad (i.e. to have no extra keywords at all).
I kinda want to see more tropes like this. Or, even a revelation trope where *you* the audience realized that the Hero you're rooting for is actually the BBG the whole ti - yes I'm talking about Overlord, we need more Overlord
My favorite version of this trope is when the character apart of the evil origination always new that they were evil, but they thought they were a necessary evil.
Like yasha from Asura’s wrath, he always new what they were doing was wrong but it was for the sake of ending a war, and instead of being told that there’s a better way to do it, he finds that out on his own.
"What is better, to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" ~Paarthurnax
I'd say the latter.
Good quote
"That thing was evil and betrayed the bad guy and all of his kind to save us all, surely he'll betray us as well"
- Some dudes who had been unemployed for centuries
@@GarkKahn This is why we do not like the (plausibly phony) Blades of Skyrim
@@dovakhiinmaster2967 nobody's ever really liked the blades, they just force their way into the main quest of every elder scrolls game.
There is one minor angle which wasn't covered here which could be covered in a future installment: The Internal Reformist.
The protagonist realize or have known all along that Kitten Squishers Inc. is evil or corrupt but stays with the organization, determined to bring about change from the inside either from (1) a change in how things are managed so they are far less evil, either by a change in policy or by getting rid of the evil overlord boss, or (2) by exposing to the world how evil Kitten Squishers Inc. really is through some good old fashioned corporate espionage and/or whistleblowing.
Both angles are interesting in their own right because they can act as spy/political thrillers that are often uphill battles for the protagonist at first, where there are questions about who you can trust, where someone's status as an enemy or ally can violently shift depending on the circumstances, and even the antagonists who argue that the protagonist's efforts are misguided or pointless can feel very persuasive.
…Though the more I write the more I realize I'm primarily requesting a Trope Talk on Double-Agents....
There's actually something like this in Ace Attorney, the latest one, except it goes even further and SPOILER
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The reformist suddenly gets the realization that he is actually related to the royal family, and his step sister who is princess is the de facto hostage of the super evil queen. And the boss uses this to blackmail him, so his reforming fails. The character's name is Nahyuta
I feel like Revolver Ocelot from Metal Gear Solid is the perfect example of this kind of character. Throughout pretty much all of the series, he comes across as the true main villain, working with the secretive big bad organization against the protagonists. However, when the 4th game rolls around, we're hit with the revelation that he was actually opposed to this organization the entire time and was just using Snake to destroy it. Sure, Ocelot is a despicable sadistic person who committed many atrocities, but he was doing it out of a complete devotion to his cause and the belief that the ends justify the means. I mean even after his goal was finished, he died fighting Snake. Not for any big grand reason, but just because fighting was all he has ever known and he wanted to go down doing what he loved. There was nothing left for him in the new era he had brought about. He's such a great character.
I also cite Psycho-pass when looking at this trope. While Season 2 wasn't the best, it's entire plot was centered around this trope. *Spoilers ahead*
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At the end of last season, our paladin-type reformist declared that they will change the system to their boss's face. (They knew they could do this relatively safely so they could get away with it without being offed immediately.) While this meant the evil boss more actively took steps to try to hinder the protagonist, the protagonist could also be more brazen in the steps they took to try to accomplish their reforms while fighting the season's antagonist, leading to a minor victory at the end of the season for the protagonist where some of their reforms are passed and the season's antagonist is defeated in one fell swoop.
This is my problem with empire strike back. "so Vader tell me your plan again". "I'll capture and torture my son's friends, fight him, dismember him, then at that point I'll tell him I'm his father and offer him a place at my side, kill the emperor and make the new empire more pro-alien. I was never really into the whole humans first deal". "just forget the torture and the dismembering, man, just point out the rebellion was on it's last legs (hoth was an emergency base after the empire cracked down on the rebellion after the death star). and offer a way to finish these "star wars" with the least amount of deaths. but this is probably just me fantasising about something more amazing than space wizards. parents that love their children.
Reminds me of the conflict between Suzaku and Lelouch in Code Geass. Suzaku works and fights for the country actively and openly oppressing his people with the hopes of protecting them once he's in a position of power. Lelouch simply wants to burn the whole thing down.
I always appreciate a story that makes a character irredeemable, but shows them deciding to stop being evil anyway. (That's one thing I adore about the character Endeavor in My Hero Academia)
It's not enough to only redeem the ones who barely did anything wrong or didn't know any better, you have to show that change is necessary even after the "point of no return", because otherwise it bleeds into our real life worldview. So many people will write someone off entirely for having a bad opinion or doing a bad thing, because they can't comprehend the idea of people ever changing. In stories, the bad guys who defect were secretly good along, so if you don't think this person is good you can't comprehend them "defecting"; you can't see into their mind to decide if there's any good in them at all.
But the same is true for those bad people. If you convince yourself that there are only good and evil people, and you have decided that you are irredeemable, your only choice is to get worse.
I want people to be able to see in our stories and in real life that being good isn't about never doing anything wrong, but rather choosing to do what's right even if you can't be "forgiven." When you apologize, it's not transactional, to make yourself feel better; it's an acknowledgement of guilt and a promise to change.
There was a book trilogy I read that handled this in an interesting way.
Book 1: The evil villain conquers a kingdom. He cannibalizes the royal family, thinking it'll grant him magic powers). If you oppose him, he'll kill you, your family, and your pet dog. The hero is the young prince of the fallen royal family who is the last hope of his dying kingdom.
Book 2: The young hero grows up struggling with anger issues and wants revenge. The villain starts to realize that governing a kingdom is really hard, and that having the public reputation of a murderer, barbarian, and cannibal isn't very helpful.
Book 3: The villain governs the Kingdom so effectively that the land is more peaceful and prosperous than it was under the previous royal family. The dude has a redemption arc and becomes a benevolent and generous ruler. The "hero" becomes so consumed with rage, revenge, and the desire to reclaim his inheritance that he loses his kindness and generosity.
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Basically, the villain became the hero, and the hero became the villain.
I have a story where the main character follows this trope essentially beat for beat. It's a Yu-Gi-Oh story about a boy who was raised to murder Aknamkanon (Yami Yugi’s father) by his mother, a maid who worked in the palace until (as she tells it) Aknamkanon forced himself on her, got her pregnant, and threw her out to save his own reputation. He was taught to be an assassin since childhood and is a ruthless fighter (at the cost of being an utter dunce at anything resembling a normal social life). However, despite the fact he was raised to be a ruthless hit man, he in general finds that he *can't* be as ruthless as his mother wanted to be. Early on he meets the magician Mana, who is being hunted down by a starving lion, and he contemplates his mom would say that she deserved to be mauled for not preparing to survive in the desert by herself and that he should leave her to die, before he saves her anyway. He has a very rigid moral code (more rigid than his upbringing would imply), specifically that he does not kill innocents, and in addition once he figures out the whole having friends deal he's *extremely* devoted to the people he cares about (he only wants to kill the Pharaoh because he loves his mom and wants to avenge what happened to her). He even considers sparing the lives of the nobles who weren't involved with what Aknamkanon did and giving his friends positions in Egypt's government once he's done with the whole hostile takeover deal. But as the story progresses and he starts getting hints he might *not* be as righteous as he thinks he is, the stress drives him to do more and more morally ambiguous (and frankly reckless) things he never would have at the beginning of the story - because the kid bases so much of his entire worldview on this rigid moral code and sense of justice he's having a gosh-darn existential crisis over not being the good guy.
Where is the link to this fic I wanna read it. :3. I'm not in the Yu-Gi-Oh fandom nor am I at all familiar with its lore, but I wanna read it anyways. :3.
@@hannahmetzger6622 unfortunately it's not posted at the moment; I'm working on making a wattpad account to start posting but it's not up yet
@@kylajensen1957 Could you please also post it on AO3? I don't have Wattpad. 😅.
"Kitten squishers incorporated PAW-sitive facade."
I don't care if that's not what you intended, it's what I heard.
sadly the answer to "how do we react when we realize we've done something bad" is all to often ignore that realization, aided by a fear of change and the most mundane personal benefits. it's basically what our entire society is built on.
I can't remember where it's from, but there's a list of "reasons for hating people" where one reason is "I hate you because I killed your brother". People often hate the people they (or a group they identify with) have harmed. It's partly because admitting it would mean they have to admit to themselves and others that they're the bad guys, so they make up "good reasons" for doing what they did/are doing, and/or pretend it's not real (surprisingly often both), and partly because deep down they know they would retaliate if it was them so they keep doing it since offense is the best defense
@@mackereltabbie Why though? Surely rationalizing doing something bad to one person can involve demonizing that one person rather than depersonalizing that person's entire demographic.
@@BJGvideos often because at least part of the reason you did something bad to that person had to do with group identity/demographics
@@mackereltabbie But then their rationale isn't "I hate you because I killed your brother". That's not the same thing.
@@BJGvideos “I hate you because I killed your brother” is just used as the general name for this tendency. That’s just what this sort of thing is called, like how how the story trope “Dating Catwoman”, about a hero dating a villain in a story, doesn’t necessarily mean the stories that use this trope literally always have the hero date someone named “Catwoman.” These things aren’t always literal. The name still applies to the example you described, as a specific example of the tendency, even if it doesn’t _literally_ apply.
I'd seriously recommend looking at the 2003 adaptation of fullmetal alchemist for this kinda trope, as it goes very heavily into the subject matter of "what do you do when you've done something irredeemable?" And it involves a lot of characters just spiraling. Like, if you don't mind some character analysis.
Unlike BH, 03 places very heavy emphasis on human transmutation and the Ishbal War. Edward's main conflict in the series is his guilt over the human transmutation. In 03, Alphonse didn't want to do the transmutation because he knew it was a bad idea but Edward pressured him into it. Which feeds into both Edward's guilt over pressuring Al into it and Alphonse's guilt for not stopping his brother. Edward joins the Amestrian military to look for some way to get Al's body back (he doesn't have the idea of using the philosopher's stone until after he joins the military). The Amestrian military is a fascist dictatorship. Throughout the course of the show, Edward has to unlearn racism and propaganda about Ishbal. This climaxes in the return to Lior plotline. For those who haven't seen either fma, both shows and the manga start with Edward and Alphonse visiting Lior to look for a maguffin called the Philosopher's Stone. They find a church run by some guy using a fake stone and they tear down the religion. Afterwards, the homunculi use that as an opportunity to start a civil war. In BH, the return to Lior is way after the fact. In 03, Lior is posed to become a second genocide and Ed and Al return right before the military takes action. The return to Liore is such a significant moment for Edward in this show because 03 holds Edward responsible for destabilizing the region. The homunculi's motivation for attacking Lior is different in 03 than in BH, so there's no guarantees that the homunculi would've been dead set on destroying Lior. Edward's actions in the first episode of the show is the inciting incident in this war and there's no real getting around the fact that he's on some level responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of people. At this point, Edward decides to prioritizing saving the people of Lior from the military over saving the people in the military from Scar's giant fuck-you-turns-you-into-a-philosopher's-stone transmutation circle. Afterwards, Edward's no longer in the military. Which wasn't a decision he made, rather it's because of circumstances surrounding Al. This entire arc is quite interesting because Edward is just a kid trying to be an adult and do the right thing but the setting won't let him because he's fundamentally trying to repair something that's irreparable.
The premise of Roy's character is that he wants to redeem himself for what he did in Ishbal, but those actions are fundamentally irredeemable. He ultimately has to learn that he can never redeem himself and if he genuinely cares about the people hurt by his actions, he can't prioritize his career. He has to give up the idea of redemption in order to be a good guy. His relationship with Edward is also really interesting. Unlike in BH, Roy is a genuinely a bastard. As in, he's callous, he's manipulative, he's mean, and he's a murderer. Yet, he's still presented as a sympathetic and likeable character. At one point, he was Edward, but then Ishbal happened, which is why Roy's fond of him. He wants to protect Edward by keeping him in the dark about Lior and Hughes's death, but him being so manipulative just fires back on him when Edward chooses not to trust him. Even though he does rise through the ranks, Roy realizes that he hasn't actually changed anything, so he decides to assassinate Bradly, which is what was ultimately the best decision he had available to him. Roy doesn't become Fuhrer because he removes the role of Fuhrer.
Pretty much every relevant character in the show makes some decision that cannot be unmade and their arc centers around that. What makes so many of the Amestrian characters compelling is that they know they're the villains and they all have to cope with or fix it in some way. There isn't really a paragon answer. I'm not sure if I explained everything well, my thoughts kept kinda starting and stopping, but I'd highly recommend checking out the show, it has a lot to say about the idea of redemption.
there's this one quote from- freaking Wonder Woman, actually, that's like, "it's not about deserving it's about what's right", and it resonated with me more than I expected. Villains being punished is important in many circumstances to
-prevent them from doing more bad things
-discorage other people from doing similarly bad things
but it some circumstances even if someone seems buried in crimes they've commited... if they want to get better it doesn't actually help the world to punish them.
hilariously I don't even agree with this quote too much in original context, the character it was describing was legit pretty pure evil and proooobably caused more death by continuing to be alive. she didn't want to be a better person.
Was a pretty stupid movie too, like yeah bro 1918 Germans were just Nazis and totally weren't an army made up of a few veterans and mostly young conscripts just trying to survive, you should cheer when the 18 year old literal medic gets every bone in his body broken by the "superhero".
I'm not even joking you can look, he has a redcross armband on.
I mean, that is how Nazi Germany cane about: the treaty of Versailles being way too harsh on Germany’s economy reducing them to desperate hatred.
Redcloak from the webcomic "The Order of the Stick" is an example of the "double-down" arc. He's never seen himself as the "good" guy per se, but he sees his agenda as the only way to avenge the wrongs done to his people and ensure a better future for them. He's had multiple attempts to turn aside from his path, with both allies and enemies showing him how uncertain it is and even offering alternatives. But each time he doubles down, because to do otherwise would be to admit to himself that all the atrocities he's committed to get this far weren't the only choices he could have made.
Definitely an excellent example, that entire book is probably my favorite OotS collection. Right-Eye is also an example of the trope, but serves to show what Redcloack could have done after the realization, the life the two of them could have had. The end of the story with Right-Eye and Redcloack, not to spoil, is such a brilliantly done moment
@@legogeek11 It really was, I love the main comic but that particular side story adds sooo much to it that it should almost be required for the story. The fact that it really started out as a hero origin and his slow but constant concessions up to the point where he commits to doubling down on what he knows is wrong makes it so much more tragic
Ah a fellow Redcloak enjoyer. He’s such a disaster of a goblin. With the way his character arc is going, his sunk cost fallacy policy will give us one hell of a fall.
I hope Red reads "Order of the Stick" she'd adore General Tarquin.
@@andrewmcclean823 Tarquin is also a great example of how the affably evil trope can even affect the audience with some people going to great lengths to justify his actions (and then there were the people that bought his own hype as much as he did).
"Look, if we don't squish at least SOME of these kittens, sooner or later we'll be up to our eyeballs in kittens, and then nothing will get done because everyone will be too distracted by all the adorable kittens! We provide a SERVICE!"
roll your charisma... 🤨
These \*Kitten Tallow Biscuits* aren't gonna cook themselves y'know.
@@guyver441 Great. Now I want to write a story where all my characters’ decisions are determined by a D20 roll. Not literally in story, but by me rolling one.
'You don't get it. Kittens lead a miserable life, being used as nothing more than living pillows of cuteness. I'm sure if you ask them they would want to end it all right now, and squishing them is the fastest way to go!'
It would be absolutely hilarious if one of the kitten squishers accidentally shot one of the kittens, making the protagonist reconsider everything because that guy didn't kill the kitten the way the kittens preferred it to happen.
Meanwhile Dwarf Fortress players causally exterminates the entire cat population
13:00 Reminds me of Omni-Man, who was shown in great extent how heartless, psychotic and dangerous he was by slaying thousands while beating his son to near death (literally using his son as a weapon to kill), only to feel compassion and start questioning his actions.
Invincible wasn't afraid to show how evil he was and then show that he still had feelings. It was a very human moment and Omni-Man's redemption arc is one of my favorites.
12:32 I love that everyone is coming to recognize the healing power of Naps