@@kingcrimsonwashere8736 not exactly. The opposite of Love, is not not hate, it's Apathy, complete disregard of interest. I can't remember where I heard it from but there was a quote that went along the lines of "In order to truly hate someone, you must have loved them first. Hate, first and foremost, is about respect."
Character: "He's my archnemesis. We had some... disagreements. We call each other "old friend" and regularly meet for chess and tea and we gaze into each other's eyes very intensely and totally heterosexually."
Predating Batman: Beyond was the Batman: TAS episode "Joker's Favor", where average guy Charlie Collins managed to put the fear into *The Joker* by threatening to blow them both to bits with one of Joker's bombs. "You're not getting caught, not this time. I found this blown out of the van. This is how it ends, Joker. No big schemes. No grand fight to the finish with the Dark Knight. Tomorrow, all the papers will say is that the great Joker was found blown to bits in an alley alongside a miserable little nobody. Kind of funny. Ironic, really. See, I can destroy a man's dreams too, and that's really the only dream you've got, isn't it?" This breaks the Joker to the point that he's literally screaming for Batman to *help* him.
And after that vader notices the lightsaber of luke was his and starts investigating the subject, which leads to the encounter in bespin and the famous line.
That's more a villain line than a hero one, if your protagonist is going around saying stuff like that they're probably more "hero" than hero, note quotation marks.
I like to imagine that if Lord Shen hadn’t destroyed Po’s village and murdered almost his entire species then Po would have just ended up beating him in a game of go or chess, or something
That implies he could have subverted the prophecy by playing “rock paper and scissors” with a black and white animal until he lose instead of committing a genocide and it’s hilarious
I think that’s on the Evil Overlord list somewhere. Something about if a child is destined to succeed you… adopt the kid and start grooming them as your heir.
Feel like you sorta missed an 8th type: the Moby-Dick style obsession. Where a character has made a nemesis out of something that is, by nature of being either a wild animal or even an inanimate object like a mountain or something, incapable of feeling the same way or even acknowledging them.
That makes me think about a book I read called Railsea. The gist is that everyone lives on an ocean of dirt populated by giant insects and animals, and one step onto this dirt means that you're going to get eaten. The only way to travel the Railsea is by train, and some of these trains hunt giant moles for a living. One character, Captain Naphi, is obsessed about tracking down her nemesis, a massive mole named Mocker Jack who took her arm many years ago. However, about three-quarters through the book, it it revealed that Captain Naphi never lost her arm to Mocker Jack, and instead had the limb more or less amputated and replaced with a mechanical hand. All she wanted was to have a nemesis like all the other captains on the Railsea who lost eyes or hands or legs to some monster or another.
Would that be related to the type 4 nemesis (vengeance/vendetta)? Like how she highlighted the Street Fighter movie ... Chun-Li's promise of vengeance, Bison's "just Tuesday".
@@Stratelier well, yes, but no. The difference is that in type 4, the relationship is one sided for the most part, but becomes personal in the final act, while as in type 8, the relationship is one sided the whole time. There is a difference between "it was just another day for the villain while it changed the heros life" and "I hate the guts of this animal who is not even aware that I exist".
And then there's my nemesis: The accidential nemesis. One of the players in my D&D campaign has a run of the mill farmer boy background. To give him someone special, I chose to implement a guy, whose fraudulent merchant enterprise was thwarted by some dude who just happens to look exactly the same as the player character. So the nemesis hunts the player in order to take revenge, while the player character has no idea what his nemesis' problem is. Meanwhile, the REAL target of the nemesis' anger is living a boring life, married with children in some remote village :D
Reminds me of the original Paper Mario, where there's like a local bully named Jr. Troopa you beat in the first level who swears revenge, and he becomes more and more powerful, learns to fly, use magic, etc. He keeps showing up but you can tell him you don't even remember who he is, much to his fury.
Please tell me that one day you are going to make a big scene where the "evil" dude have finally found the perfect way of destroying him standing over him with this new special weapon and smiling smugly at him "It is finally over Jeremy Anderson! Your death is now at my ha" "Jeremy..what..My name is fucking Alaco the mighty" "....dont you try to lie to me Jeremy! Don't play pretend with me! After you destroyed my life don't think a bad lie will stop me from" Actual Jeremy suddenly walks past, drunk, in dirty cloth having been out drinking with his palls "Kenneth...? Em..is that you? Ay it is isn't it! The hell how is your business going? Sorry about that whole "setting the building on fire" thing but I mean bigons be bigons right? Anyway man have a good night!"
That was actually the original plot of my sister's novel. An innkeeper's son attacked without explanation by the mage ruler of a neighbouring kingdom. Being hunted for 14 years without knowing why, until he meets the son of the king the Magister killed to take control of his kingdom, and it's like looking into a mirror.... (Incidentally, the Prince has been living in luxury a few kingdoms over, and has had no real motivation to take back his father's kingdom.)
@@afrosquirrel I've read Night Watch, it's one of my favorites. I'm suprised I didn't recgonize the quote, but then again that book has a lot of great quotes in it.
I like how with Batman and Joker, their whole aesthetics are opposite. Batman is dark and serious while Joker is more colorful and makes jokes and stuff. They're also the opposite of the traditional hero/villain aesthetocs.
I find it interesting that there's also a similar dynamic between Batmans protege Robin (Dick Grayson) and his main nemesis, Deathstroke. Robin and Joker has a lot in common, mainly because they are meant to work as a contrast to Batman. Both are often portrayed as smiling, brightly clad and joking personalities (but Robin is of course more benevolent than Joker. Robin is the guy who laughs with you, Joker at you) and, interestingly enough, both have a circus motif. Robin being an acrobat and Joker being a clown. Now look at their nemesis, Batman and Deathstroke. Both are serious, darkclad and peak human skilled martial artists and strategist. But while Batman uses his skills for good and never kills, Deathstroke has no such qualms and also does it for the money. Also, if we take the Teen Titans animated series into account, both Batman and Slade (Deathstroke) have a "mentorship" relationship with Robin.
Like they call each-other nemeses and have a routine for their combative ways and just have a very healthy nemesisitude until Doof stops doing the diabolical scheming thing and then they become buds, like they aren't any kind of standard example of the trope, but they deserve a passing mention.
@@alljammedup6781I think that makes them coworkers moreso than nemeses. Their conflict was never personal for either of them, which is something Red defines as integral to a nemesis relationship in this video. Perry and Doof never actually hated each other, Doof was trying to take over the tri-state area to work through his childhood trauma, and it was just Perry's job to listen to Doof's backstory and then destroy his Inator. In other words, Perry wasn't Doof's nemesis, he was his therapist.
Random DrWhack It took me a minute to understand why Red laughed, but when I did, I cackled really hard at both the joke and my stupidity. My family thinks I've gone mad like the hatter.
"As anyone with real siblings can confirm" THANK YOU RED. Can you please do an episode on how some sibling dynamics are *clearly* written by people who are only child's?
One trope that happens sometimes between nemeses is the “handcuffed together” episode where the nemeses find themselves trapped in a situation where they are basically forced to work together in order to survive or escape. This can demonstrate one of two things. Either it shows how if things were different, the nemeses could’ve been friends, or it shows how conniving and selfish the more antagonistic nemesis is in order to achieve their goals while also giving the other nemesis more clues on how to win the next time they have to confront each other. The latter option acts as a great bridge for continuity when the hero comes up with a plan based on the information they wouldn’t normally know about without that interaction, something that only we as the audience always knew.
My favorite example of this is the Clone Wars episode where Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin all get captured by the pirate Hondo, who has them tied together. Their banter is perfect
Oh, yeah, kinda reminds me of how Kazuya and Heihachi worked together for a bit in a Tekken intro cutscene, only for the former to ditch the latter at the earliest opportunity.
Basically Generator Rex and Van Kleiss or the time when Ben 10 had to team up with Kevin 11 to escape a gladiator ship. Or Slade and Robin when fighting the fire demons. Honestly, those are super fun.
I think about the only exception to that would be mediator or chosen one types. The Avatar, for example. As it is the Avatar's job to maintain balance and mediate conflicts, if you're causing problems, the Avatar will almost certainly intervene eventually, whether you seek them out or not. Otherwise, every other example is of a villain trying to subvert the prophecy and thus causing it.
@@saltyk9869Frankly, I think it works in Voldemort's case too. Even if Harry's parents didn't die, he had enough natural talent to potentially be a very powerful wizard so he would give Voldemort a very hard time if Voldemort started doing super bad stuff.
@@awesomery4596 I acknowledge the possibility you're being wrong on purpose for irony's sake, but in the case that either you're not or someone less informed reads this: **Absolutely Not**, Captain Cold is part of the Flash's rogue gallery, not Batman's. TheDeadmandillon was correct, it's Mr. Freeze.
@Mewaddlee If it's pre-animated series, it's a clean-room suit. If it's animated series (and most post BTAS but non-New 52 comics), it's a glass display case. If it's the Arkham series, it's a scuba helmet. If it's New 52, it's fishbowl helmet.
@@MegaChickenfish Oh no, how does it get worse than armageddon unless... Say it isn't so! Tell me that they didn't use the Michael Bay movie this time!!!
She ra can be summarized as "we will make you fools ship these two caracters and then we are going to fuck with their feelings so much, one of them will have not one, not two, but 3 mental breakdowns"
My favourite kind of nemesis is the "can't tell the difference between love and extreme rivalry" kind. I just love totally batshit insane villains like that.
"My heart strat beating faster whenever I see you, my legs feels like jelly and I got those weird reaction in my stomach. Clearly, that's a sign we are Destined Rivals and we should fight on the regular."
"Good to see you, old friend" "Friend? Last time we met you killed half of my friend group and then we had a dramatic duel! "....wait friends don't do that?"
Mokuba becomes one of these nemeses (albeit the affection is platonic) in a dead fic I wrote, after getting killed, revived as an undead zombie in a process so painful it broke his mind, and then groomed by the Big Bad to become the greatest Duelist possible - this process completely destroying his personality so that the only parts of him left are his hero worship of Kaiba (not even concrete memories), which Mokuba expresses in the form of a creepy sadomasochistic obsession with facing him in a Duel, because he associates love with pain.
When you came to the point of multiple nemeses per character, I had to think about the first episode of the Ducktales reboot. Scrooge:"How dare you working for my nemesis?" Donald:"How am I supposed to keep track of your nemeses?!"😂
11:30 Actually you see this very well with what Iroh said earlier in the show "No. She's crazy and she needs to go down.” Iroh is a lot kinder and more forgiving than Zuko is, yet he hasn't seen Azula for a number of episodes and thus sends Zuko off to fight her, but Zuko who has seen her decay only looks sad in the end. He goes full circle, before he was only guessing what Iroh would think but in the end he really stands over his defeated sister and you can see in his eyes that he for the first time perhaps ever realizes that it's his little sister and how far gone she is.
Isn't anything that mentions it just an excuse for praising it. Including when you correct people who think you are talking about the James Cameron movie.
No kidding...it like my third place on my fav trope. First place go to "team lancer dating with the team smart one"for they always have a healthy relationship and second place is "Alien Hox" episode for show how far pranking can get. Plus, it did happen in real life...
@@autisticdancer yup....not a lot of show do an episode where a small size prank can become a giant scale prank. Another example of "Alien Hox" episode is on Rescue Bot where one of the bad guy leak a video to show that the giant robot in Griffin Rock are Alien being, the Burn and the Rescue Bots ask the whole town to counter the leak by making a fake video of an alien invasion for Earlyween.
>they’re not just a quirky mini boss squad of thinly veiled analogies to everyone who bullied you in middle school I CAME HERE TO HAVE A GOOD TIME AND HONESTLY IM FEELING SO ATTACKED RIGHT NOW
And then there’s me who just caught a lot of low level grief (and not completely without reason- see Red’s comment in another video about mistaking being good at math for having a personality), so no one really stands out now, about four years after college. Like, literally a year or two after I graduated I had to go by the school and someone came up and apologized for being a jerk to me when we had class together; I didn’t have the heart to tell him I couldn’t even remember his name.
NetherWalker well I did have to do a mythology/drama presentation in English class... ...and may or may not have just rewatched every osp video and gotten an A
It would be a special occasion for the first person to take the first drink. Who can be capable enough to do it... Hey, kid! Do you like PROVING yourself?
A really interesting way to do a prophesied nemesis would be where the 'evil' nemesis has been aware of it long before the 'hero', but actively trying to avoid it - fighting against this supposedly preordained fate - whilst the 'hero' goes with fate, determined to defeat the 'evil' nemesis even as they do everything to avoid becoming that. Normally with such a sort of thing you'd get the prophesied nemesis eventually becoming evil in spite of their efforts precisely because everyone treats them as if that is already what they are, due to 'unavoidable' fate; but I'd like to see what happens if they succeed, and do defeat fate - maybe the hero isn't so heroic after all?
Took me a couple reads to get it - because most nemeses of this caliber DO try and defy fate, and the story almost always pulls a “self-fulfilling prophecy” twist. Maybe reword your idea for clarification.
Major spoilers for the entire first season, but one anime does something like this. Where the 'hero' has to fulfill their prophecy and save the world and the villain really wants to stop them but also kind of holds back for a while because he knows it's not their fault (and the usual "they're too weak to succeed"). Not really a nemesis relationship until the very end when it's abundantly clear that the 'hero' isn't going to give up on the prophecy. Then he goes all out and does something both the 'hero' and the audience didn't realize anyone could actually do by them self. Spoilers UA-cam has been erasing my line breaks lately Spoilers The name of the anime is Magic Knight Rayearth.
The idea of a villain hearing the prophecy then going out of there way to AVOID the self fulfilling part, only for the "Hero" to go full tilt onto the prophecy. Then at the end, everyone realizes something. In trying to avoid the prophecy the roles reversed, but the "Hero" and "Villain" dont notice until the "Villain" finally just stops holding back and instanukes the "Hero". When the dust settles the bystanders are cheering, much to the "Villain"'s surprise, since the "Hero" had been carving a swath of destruction in their blind path to eliminate the former villain.........and the villain had become a good ruler purely to avoid getting prophecy killed. Then the story continues with the former villain taking that lesson to heart and making a point of maintaining the good thing he's made, fully aware whatever made the prophecy will probably strike again once the next chosen one is born, and if he stays a good ruler he will never get ended by them.
@@clayxros576 I like this idea a lot. Upending subversion of a type I've never seen before AND it retains all the juicy "destined downfall by their own hubris" goodness of the original. Mwah!
@@adamroquemore6410 Well yes, but in this case it's more relevant and funny because it's the consistent love/sex/relationships theme for the channel. It's about the context so the context is what I talked about.
@@ebros5758 His boss pays the price. He just wants to be left alone in a locker or destroyed. Out of all the things we can pin on Bright, his immortality isnt one.
I’d like to see a nemesis relationship where the protagonist hates the dark nemesis, but the dark nemesis actually loves them and is saddened by the conflict
Although I never finished it and the anime was pretty bad, akame ga kill had this. MC is forced to go undercover with the bad guys for a bit and the leader of the bad team falls in love with him.
@@themadichib0d oh god Akame ga Kill. Somehow I watched it to the end and it. Got worse. I do appreciate the inverted one-sided nemesis, and that the protag didn't end up with the title character girl, and I guess I can appreciate how it differs from your average anime where the heroes win and everyone (or mostly everyone) lives, but man. It. It was a show. It exists. It happened. I'm never watching it again hahaha
Black Cat, either the manga or the anime (slightly different but same basic story). The main antagonist, Creed Diskenth, loves and admires the protagonist, Train Heartnet, and wants to make Train return to being the heartless assassin “the Black Cat” once more, but Train either wants nothing to do with him or hates him for trying to ruin his life
There's a manhwa called I Don't Want This Kind of Hero where a villain falls deeply in love with the protagonist Naga and begins obsessing over him. She keeps stalking him and hurting those around him out of jealousy, eventually driving him further and further away until he bitterly hates her. It's pretty interesting, I'd recommend giving it a read on Webtoons
WiseWillow the moment you realize that the video isn’t about Star Trek: Nemesis, because it’s Red and says “trope talk”, and you’ve gone too far down the rabbit hole of nerdieness.
Noel Stevenson did the lovers-to-nemeses thing really well in Nimona. It was actually pretty interesting because (spoilers) in the end it wasn't actually a personal conflict, their whole reason for hating each other was manufactured by an institution which directly benefited from their rivalry, revealing them to be the real antagonists. It was really loaded because these two people who legitimately cared for each other lost everything simply to further the agenda of a corrupt institution.
Story idea: A pair of nemeses destined to fight one another meet before knowing about their destiny, become friends, and actively try to prevent this while slowly slipped into their destined roles. Just a thought.
Or how about: Subvert the trope by making it a friendship story, where it turns out the very act of predicting the future has unintentionally changed it. Then the plot will be about preventing the prophesised conflict before it even begins. Basically the "in another life we might have been friends" thing made reality, but with a lot more political scheming being foiled.
@@Gormathius that will be Kamen Rider Z-io. He, Geiz and the rest of people that he know end up being friend after he become Oma Z-io to reset the timeline and make they all stay with him
@@Gormathius Or you could have the prophesy get interpreted as saying one of them is going to kill the other, but that isn't what it means at all in the end. BECAUSE PROPHECY TWISTS.
A trope that I really like is “the enemy of my enemy is a friend”. Like when either the protagonist or antagonist is in desperate need, they seek help from one of the people they’re opposing (usually if a badder villain double-crossed the lesser antagonist). I like the dynamics between the hero and rival and the character building from that. It’s also just really entertaining to watch to characters who don’t get along well being forced to cooperate out of necessity
"Quirky mini-boss squad of thinly veiled analogies to everyone who bullied you in middle school" I can just imagine a rouge's gallery filled to the brim with shallow caricatures of mean teenagers
I mean, one of Catra's lines in the latest season is "Seriously, I thought I'd have to capture another town to get your attention," so you're not that far off.
I loved that moment at the end of She Ra season 3 where Adora at last gave up on saving Catra. In that moment Catra suddenly realizes that this whole time Adora was on her side and that’s gone now. She is alone.
I've been wondering if I should watch She Ra but got spooked off by all of the politics that swirled around it when it first came out. Is it worth the watch, as long as its not preachy I'm sure I would like it.
@@SensaiRyu It is. Also there were no politics surrounding it. Just a bunch of grifters trying to make money off of drama. And people who are upset that the show wasn't like the one from 30 years ago.
doubly so when Hordak finds out she's the one who screwed over his own plans and almost got him killed. She's gonna lose EVERYTHING she had built up over the previous seasons, I guarantee it.
Welllll... it wasn’t driven so much by personal hatred of Aang as by the fact that if anyone else captured the Avatar, Zuko would never be able to go home and would be a banished wanderer forever. It wasn’t like he was doing it just because he personally hated Aang that much. He just couldn’t afford to let anyone else take the credit for it.
@@nkbujvytcygvujno6006 I'd argue for narrative reasons it IS an OTV though, since Zuko straight up commits treason multiple times just so that he could capture Aang. At that point the driving motive matters less than the dynamic itself and the actions taken in support of it.
@@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447 I'm not convinced that matters, since he still targets Aang specifically. And I'd bet money that if there was somehow 2 Avatars, he would still pick Aang over the other one.
I literally just started that show today, does that actually happen? Wait, don't tell me, I need to see for myself. Edit: Having finally finished the show, I can confirm, and it is amazing.
I think that's one of my faves, simply because they absolutely despise, and absolutely respect each other. Alucard despises Anderson's piety, but respects his power and determination. Anderson despises Alucard for being a blood thirsty monster, but respects his burning desire to rid the world of monsters like him.
Now I want to see the nemesis version of a love triangle "Okay, so on hand Brad constantly bullied me through school and beat me at everything and took the girl I liked and acted super smug about it and STILL HASN'T GOTTEN HIS ASS KICKED! But on the other hand, Dr. Gizmo actually tried to murder me and my loved ones Could I try to be nemesis for both of them, would they find out if I did that?"
"The no-mercy variant is much more common with nemesis siblings, as anyone with real siblings can confirm." You (and or the writers) have siblings, don't you? There's something so odd about being constantly stuck with someone(s) and both of your brains aren't fully formed. Leads to all sorts of messed up stories, lol.
speak for yourselves. my brother and I get along great. Maybe it's cause I'm like a decade younger or that he's on the spectrum and I was taught to be patient with him, but I've never felt any kind of nemesis dynamic toward him.
@@DDlambchop43 Yeah, my brother and I are both on the spectrum so we don't exactly have a "typical" sibling relationship, he headbutts and hits sometimes but other than that we get along great.
I haven't watched all the trope talk videos yet, but I was wondering in the last one I watched if every single one is going to reference Avatar The Last Airbender. This one didn't disappoint. Red needs to sell a DVD series for schools and home schoolers. I would totally buy a set for my six year old for when he's older.
🎶I used to sit alone doing evil all day But now I think someone’s gonna get in my way Yeah, there’s someone in my life Who doesn’t want me to exist And I feel fine ‘Cause I’ve got a nemesis!🎶
🎵Now I hate him, and he hates me. What a wonderful animosity. Besides his hat, he wears no clothes. Now I have someone to oppose. Yes I have a nemesiiiis🎵
Ex. of the difference between antagonist and villain: Macbeth’s main antagonist is Macduff. But who ordered the murder of Macduff’s children? Macduff=antagonist, Macbeth=villain
Eeeh the height difference between Burrito boi and his heterosexual life partner wasn't that large. The small dude has long sleeves so it's probably Dante and Virgil, our two fanfic writers.
It was cool. Shame that flipping out like that over something so _petty_ in the middle of what sounded like a potentially Vale-ending crisis, and also annihilating an entire flock of powerful Grimm, made it hard to take the Grimm seriously as threats. And then a f*ing sports foul caused enough negative emotions to make the Grimm overrun Vale _without_ a breach.
If they do cover it, I hope there's a segment on the "Generation Xerox" subtrope. I know history repeats itself, but fiction has a tendency to accelerate the process.
@@fruitygarlic3601 Do we even need to say Skins UK and not just Skins at this point? :P The adaptation is awful isn't it?! But yes, Skins is one of the few times that I actually like the use of The Next Generation.
5:39 “this usually requires a protagonist intervention to get them to chill out and stop self destructing” *amethyst and Steven immediately blow up in a mushroom cloud*
“And they’re also not a quirky mini boss squad that’s a thinly veiled analogy to every one who bullied you in middle school” Best line in the video imo.
12:35 Batman also has a lot of dark mirrors in his rogues gallery, the Riddler, Two Face, Ras al Ghul. Even to some extent the joker himself in that they are both incredibly intelligent. It's often said Batman is as crazy as the villain he fights, he just has some people around him like Dick and Alfred who keeps him using that for good, which makes it very glaring when they make Batman a loner all the time in movies.
"Of course, there's also a slight variant where the hero see the villain as a better version of themselves..." *shows and describes a majority chunk of Amethyst's character arc*
As someone with ADHD, Depression, and Trauma (that's right, the triple threat), I can whole-heartedly agree that the REAL arch-nemesis is my own disorganized brain.
The evolution of Catra's facial expression over the course of 5 seconds is amazing 8:48. To me It reads something like: What am I seeing right now? Oh, fuck, you're actually going to kill me. Wow, I really fucked up. You've never looked at me like that before. What the hell do I do now? I've really lost you. Alright, I guess that's how it is. I'm still going to beat you, I just have no idea how.
@@zhamac1 Batman Beyond Return of the Joker: BRUCE: Joker likes to talk, don't let him get in your head. TERRY: Wait, I like to talk too. (Terry proceeds to heckle the Joker into a villainous breakdown)
Its from "Batman Beyond, Return of the Joker". Terry aka Batman Beyond is fighting the resurrected Joker, with elderly Bruce Wayne is giving advice over the radio. Terry: "He's tough. Any suggestions, boss?" Bruce: "Joker's vain and likes to talk. He'll try to distract you, but don't listen. Block it out and power on through." Terry (to himself): "Wait, I like to talk too" Then commences the second greatest owning of the Joker to ever be put the film. What, you ask, is the greatest owning of the Joker? Why this of course: ua-cam.com/video/JZ-jWG8vdxU/v-deo.html
@@discmanthecdlord Except Part 8, where the true villain hasn't been introduce yet, and Hat Josuke just beats up people until they become his friend or die.
I think part three is prophetic, but can someone please do the rest who isn't as tired as I am and watched/read jojo more recent (what's a better word for that)
That... that Joker talk sums up one of my issues with "The Batman Who Laughs", an evil Batman from another dimension who basically got brainwashed into *being* another Joker, but with Bruce's resources and intellect. It puts the Joker into too much focus. Admittedly, that's why when Mr. J and Batman TEAMED UP against him at the end of Dark Knights Metal it had such an impact. The idea that TBWL was such a massive threat that they spontaneously teamed up against him was something TBWL had trouble comprehending. Thus, I felt the story of Edgelord Joke-Bat should have ended there. INSTEAD he gets his own miniseries in the comics. And AGAIN it ends up with Joker and Batman teaming up against him. Like... we already had this. His story should be done. Go back to Batman in conflict with Victor Fries over the man's amoral methods to get funding and research to cure his wife. Go back to other villains, DC, and stop. Emphasizing. The Joker.
and to be fair he was only one evil batman among many in the event that introduced him. the issue is he's the only one who got really popular and thus stuck around.
Yep, the concept itself is good, interesting, it shows how unhinged Batman can be if he turns out like the Joker, an idea explored in Batman Arkham Knight. But he should've just been a one-off character that you could maybe bring back in a couple of years instead of what we have now. He got a 7 issue miniseries, okay, not too bad, it was interesting. But instead of being done there nope, let's give him more of a spotlight by making it so that he infected Jim Gordon and Shazam of all people and make the Batman/Superman run all about him. Yes, Batman Who Laughs and the Joker are cool characters, but for fuck sake can we stop focusing on Joker and his edgy wannabe and focus on other villains like Freeze or Scarecrow who are pretty interesting as well and that you can make some interesting stories with as well? Joker is the cake of Batman stories, it's sweet, tastes nice, but too much cake makes you sick of it after some time and makes you crave something new, and not the same cake but with a different frosting.
My idea for the Joker would be to actually demote him down from Arch-Villain Mastermind into more of a semi-mercenary villain hitman offering his services to any crime boss or master villain worried that the Batman might interfere with their plans. Let's face it, what Joker REALLY wants is to get under Batman's skin, so why bother with elaborate criminal schemes in the hopes of attracting Batman's attention, when you can just get paid by other villains to mess with Batman?
He's a nemesis in name only, he's just a monster ordered to kill STAR members and Jill has no personal connection to him other that he was made by Umbrella. So a classic villain.
Nemesis hasn't got a personality to speak of, so there's no personal relationship with anyone it fights. It's actually a really clever subversion in that it's the "nemesis" of the PLAYER, rather than the player character.
THANK YOU. The Joker is fine for what he is, like you said, but holy shit he's not the only thing that Batman is for. He works BECAUSE the rest of Batman's rogues gallery is like they are. He's a villain that is good for a specific thing, not some tortured GAMERS RISE UP nonsense. also something, something, Homestuck.
Don't forget Harvey Dent. He blames Batman for his disfigurement and that has warped his mind. So there's a nemesis deal there, but not Joker/Batman level.
I just want mainstream media and videogames to focus on batman villains who AREN'T THE FUCKING JOKER. Even when he was killed off in Arkham City, Arkham Knight STILL Made the game aprtly about Batman's relationship with the Joker
My favorite is when its a Nemesis henchmen who gets closest to defeat the hero. Like when Harley nearly defeats batman in the animated series and has a better plan than the joker ever could think of.
Let's not forget the true OTV: Perry the Platypus and Heinz Doofenshmirtz
They went from nemeses to frenemies to straight-up friends.
Character development!
My friend ships them I don't know how to feel about it...
My nema nema oooooooo my nema nema nema!
Remember when he was defeated by a potted plant?
Writer: "This people are arch nemesis, swore to destroy each other and the world if needed be"
Fanfiction writers: "I ship them"
So true, so very very true...
Well, Hate and love are on the opposite sides of the emotional spectrum.
@@kingcrimsonwashere8736 not exactly. The opposite of Love, is not not hate, it's Apathy, complete disregard of interest. I can't remember where I heard it from but there was a quote that went along the lines of "In order to truly hate someone, you must have loved them first. Hate, first and foremost, is about respect."
*laughs in homestuck*
Jiraya x Orichimaru don't at me.
Character: "He's my archnemesis. We had some... disagreements. We call each other "old friend" and regularly meet for chess and tea and we gaze into each other's eyes very intensely and totally heterosexually."
So... Charles and Eric from x men
Or Owen and Curt from spies are forever (even though that ends up REALLY angsty)
😂
@@toxicwastebutsexy4737 That's literally the first thing that came to my mind.
No, absolutley not. That way of thinking brought is the BS that is Reylo.
(curse you Perry the Platypus intensifies)
KingCow336 _ it’s over 9000
m.ua-cam.com/video/0yM3Zh9TwtE/v-deo.html
m.ua-cam.com/video/0yM3Zh9TwtE/v-deo.html
DOOFENSHMIRTZ EVIL INCORPORATED!!!
DYZ.G Comment I heard the jingle. Damn it
"Sometimes the REAL archnemesis was your own disorganized brain."
Ain't that the truth...
What do you mean "sometimes?"
Now my nemesis is Red for making such a targeted personal attack, geez
@@randomcommenter7343 all according to plan
@@LOBricksAndSecrets bit add mood
It hits so hard because is so true
Predating Batman: Beyond was the Batman: TAS episode "Joker's Favor", where average guy Charlie Collins managed to put the fear into *The Joker* by threatening to blow them both to bits with one of Joker's bombs.
"You're not getting caught, not this time. I found this blown out of the van. This is how it ends, Joker. No big schemes. No grand fight to the finish with the Dark Knight. Tomorrow, all the papers will say is that the great Joker was found blown to bits in an alley alongside a miserable little nobody. Kind of funny. Ironic, really. See, I can destroy a man's dreams too, and that's really the only dream you've got, isn't it?"
This breaks the Joker to the point that he's literally screaming for Batman to *help* him.
Such a good moment
Fantastic episode
one of the best episodes
that show really had some incredible writing and voice acting that has rarely been matched
Goddamn i love that show. One of the few cartoons that actually get better when you rewatch it as an adult and can read more into it
Honorable Mention to the mob boss that left all of his legal assets to Joker specifically to saddle him with the massive taxes that went with them.
Maybe the real nemeses were the friends we made along the way.
wait...
Hold up
Or, as is the case in some stories, maybe the real friends were the nemeseses (nemesi) we made along the way.
@@annasfischer Damnit, you beat me to it.
I feel like ur Mongolian coz of ur name but not too sure tho.
Nemesis type 4: you killed my family!
Hero: I've killed a lot of people you're going to have to be more specific.
Do you have any idea how little it narrows that down?
Darth Vader and Luke in one comic:
Luke: you killed my father!
Vader: i killed many fathers. Please narrow it down.
And after that vader notices the lightsaber of luke was his and starts investigating the subject, which leads to the encounter in bespin and the famous line.
@@joaquinriosrodriguez7316
"Oh.....so that...Kenobi you sly dog"
That's more a villain line than a hero one, if your protagonist is going around saying stuff like that they're probably more "hero" than hero, note quotation marks.
Dark reflection summary:
“You’re weak.”
“I’m you.”
2 x 2 vs 2 + 2
onecentJager (-2)^2
(Cue villain nemesis sitting in a bar, getting drunk and crying for their weakness)
Pit and Dark Pit in a nutshell.
Attack on heavy, anyone?
My nemesis is my brain and its ability to procrastinate for eternity.
im currently fighting that nemesis right now, i should be writing a paper due in 2 hours, but instead im here blocking out anxiety.
Is this a personal attack or something?...
Dude, you will be glad to hear... same. I might actually make it the nemesis in my actuall thing im writing
Michael Böck Neat idea, but how would that work? (Just to clarify: I’m not criticizing the concept, I’m legitimately interested)
My nemesis is my brain and its ability to find new levels of depression and new kinds of suicidality (did you know that there more than 2 of them?)
The real tragedy is when the nemesis starts nemeseeing someone else.
Is that a Phineas and Ferb reference?
The Amazing World Of Gumball reference
@@cartoonishidealism582 Oooh, yeah that makes sense too.
"Without your schemes, my life it seems, is empty..."
Thay referance thoo 😔👌
I like to imagine that if Lord Shen hadn’t destroyed Po’s village and murdered almost his entire species then Po would have just ended up beating him in a game of go or chess, or something
That implies he could have subverted the prophecy by playing “rock paper and scissors” with a black and white animal until he lose instead of committing a genocide and it’s hilarious
I think that’s on the Evil Overlord list somewhere. Something about if a child is destined to succeed you… adopt the kid and start grooming them as your heir.
So it wasn´t a warrior of Black and White, but a Game of black and white??
Stupid seers and their misunderstood prophecies!
@@Fivzk Prophecy just said he'd be defeated by a warrior of black and white, never said how lol.
@@templarw20 now they can stab you in your sleep.
Feel like you sorta missed an 8th type: the Moby-Dick style obsession. Where a character has made a nemesis out of something that is, by nature of being either a wild animal or even an inanimate object like a mountain or something, incapable of feeling the same way or even acknowledging them.
NeoKingGhidorah +
That makes me think about a book I read called Railsea. The gist is that everyone lives on an ocean of dirt populated by giant insects and animals, and one step onto this dirt means that you're going to get eaten. The only way to travel the Railsea is by train, and some of these trains hunt giant moles for a living. One character, Captain Naphi, is obsessed about tracking down her nemesis, a massive mole named Mocker Jack who took her arm many years ago. However, about three-quarters through the book, it it revealed that Captain Naphi never lost her arm to Mocker Jack, and instead had the limb more or less amputated and replaced with a mechanical hand. All she wanted was to have a nemesis like all the other captains on the Railsea who lost eyes or hands or legs to some monster or another.
Would that be related to the type 4 nemesis (vengeance/vendetta)? Like how she highlighted the Street Fighter movie ... Chun-Li's promise of vengeance, Bison's "just Tuesday".
Oooo. Didn't think of that.
@@Stratelier well, yes, but no.
The difference is that in type 4, the relationship is one sided for the most part, but becomes personal in the final act, while as in type 8, the relationship is one sided the whole time.
There is a difference between "it was just another day for the villain while it changed the heros life" and "I hate the guts of this animal who is not even aware that I exist".
In a polynemisis relationship it's important that all parties are comfortable with this relationship.
Sometimes the nemesis feels betrayed that the hero has been seeing other nemeses, and that's just cruel.
Being kismesis is indeed rather complicated
@@Gormathius So basically Doofenshmirtz and Perry
*insert lego batman here*
Heroes: being tormented by the nemesis; *screaming*
The nemesis: ah yes. Everyone is happy to be here.
And then there's my nemesis: The accidential nemesis.
One of the players in my D&D campaign has a run of the mill farmer boy background. To give him someone special, I chose to implement a guy, whose fraudulent merchant enterprise was thwarted by some dude who just happens to look exactly the same as the player character. So the nemesis hunts the player in order to take revenge, while the player character has no idea what his nemesis' problem is.
Meanwhile, the REAL target of the nemesis' anger is living a boring life, married with children in some remote village :D
That actually sounds pretty funny
Reminds me of the original Paper Mario, where there's like a local bully named Jr. Troopa you beat in the first level who swears revenge, and he becomes more and more powerful, learns to fly, use magic, etc. He keeps showing up but you can tell him you don't even remember who he is, much to his fury.
Please tell me that one day you are going to make a big scene where the "evil" dude have finally found the perfect way of destroying him standing over him with this new special weapon and smiling smugly at him
"It is finally over Jeremy Anderson! Your death is now at my ha"
"Jeremy..what..My name is fucking Alaco the mighty"
"....dont you try to lie to me Jeremy! Don't play pretend with me! After you destroyed my life don't think a bad lie will stop me from"
Actual Jeremy suddenly walks past, drunk, in dirty cloth having been out drinking with his palls "Kenneth...? Em..is that you? Ay it is isn't it! The hell how is your business going? Sorry about that whole "setting the building on fire" thing but I mean bigons be bigons right? Anyway man have a good night!"
@@bibbobella wow this actually sounds like an interesting plot-twist to this story
That was actually the original plot of my sister's novel. An innkeeper's son attacked without explanation by the mage ruler of a neighbouring kingdom. Being hunted for 14 years without knowing why, until he meets the son of the king the Magister killed to take control of his kingdom, and it's like looking into a mirror....
(Incidentally, the Prince has been living in luxury a few kingdoms over, and has had no real motivation to take back his father's kingdom.)
"Murder soulmate" is my current relationship goal.
We all long for that special someone who says, "Only I'm allowed to kill you!" It shows they care as an enemy.
Steven Flaningam no wonder people ship nemesis so much
Me and my bestie be like:
So Hannibal Lecter and Will Graham.
kismesitude, you’re talking about a kismesitude an albeit unhealthy one but one none the less
_"He moved on, in the centre of a widening circle. He wasn't an enemy, he was a nemesis."_
*~ Terry Pratchett*
Sir Friendship " All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." - Terry Pratchett
Which of his many books was that one from?
Sir Friendship what book is that from
@@Rainbowthewindsage Night Watch, talking about what happens when you convince Sam Vimes that you *really* need to be stopped
@@afrosquirrel I've read Night Watch, it's one of my favorites. I'm suprised I didn't recgonize the quote, but then again that book has a lot of great quotes in it.
I like how with Batman and Joker, their whole aesthetics are opposite. Batman is dark and serious while Joker is more colorful and makes jokes and stuff. They're also the opposite of the traditional hero/villain aesthetocs.
I find it interesting that there's also a similar dynamic between Batmans protege Robin (Dick Grayson) and his main nemesis, Deathstroke.
Robin and Joker has a lot in common, mainly because they are meant to work as a contrast to Batman.
Both are often portrayed as smiling, brightly clad and joking personalities (but Robin is of course more benevolent than Joker. Robin is the guy who laughs with you, Joker at you) and, interestingly enough, both have a circus motif. Robin being an acrobat and Joker being a clown.
Now look at their nemesis, Batman and Deathstroke. Both are serious, darkclad and peak human skilled martial artists and strategist. But while Batman uses his skills for good and never kills, Deathstroke has no such qualms and also does it for the money.
Also, if we take the Teen Titans animated series into account, both Batman and Slade (Deathstroke) have a "mentorship" relationship with Robin.
@@theyakkoman I've always said if things were a bit different perhaps batman and deathstroke would be allies rather enemies
@@longinuscyclone213 I'm pretty sure that's the plot of one Lego Batman movie
I'm so sad she never once mentioned Dr. Doofenshmirtz and Perry the Platypus.
ua-cam.com/video/0yM3Zh9TwtE/v-deo.html
Ben Gill I knew exactly where that link was gonna take me, and it was stuck in my head for this whole video, but it was worth clicking on. Thank you.
"My neme-neme ooh my neme-nemesis!"
Like they call each-other nemeses and have a routine for their combative ways and just have a very healthy nemesisitude until Doof stops doing the diabolical scheming thing and then they become buds, like they aren't any kind of standard example of the trope, but they deserve a passing mention.
@@alljammedup6781I think that makes them coworkers moreso than nemeses. Their conflict was never personal for either of them, which is something Red defines as integral to a nemesis relationship in this video. Perry and Doof never actually hated each other, Doof was trying to take over the tri-state area to work through his childhood trauma, and it was just Perry's job to listen to Doof's backstory and then destroy his Inator.
In other words, Perry wasn't Doof's nemesis, he was his therapist.
“The Joker stands out like a wild card”
Nuff said.
Random DrWhack
It took me a minute to understand why Red laughed, but when I did, I cackled really hard at both the joke and my stupidity. My family thinks I've gone mad like the hatter.
I had to clap for that one
@@longliveplanetawesome3223 nice
Random DrWhack say like a joker card kind of or a suicide jack or deuces haha
Last Surprise by Persona 5
"Making the joker a real wild card (hehe)"
I'm about to deck you for that one.
Just dont fold before you get the chance. Red always has an Ace up her sleeve. Ah, shoot, the chips are down. Let's shuffle and start again.
*claps in card*
@@clayxros576 Beat me to it. Guess I'll draw again.
@@andyknightwarden9746 hopefully your luck aint jack
I can not Deal with all these card puns.
"As anyone with real siblings can confirm"
THANK YOU RED. Can you please do an episode on how some sibling dynamics are *clearly* written by people who are only child's?
Every time someone refers to their sibling as “bro” or “sis” in fiction the middle child inside me cringes.
@@MorriganReads real siblings call eachother their names or various insults.
@@S.I.L. Can confirm. That changes maybe in public though.
Only use bro or sis if someone's stalking you or is trying to feel you up. They immediately know if something's up.
@@MorriganReads I call my brother bro sometimes. Mostly on the phone.
"Don't you want to try and appeal to our friendship?"
I love it.
Reminds me of one of the best moments in Danny Phantom.
"You wouldn't turn your back on an old friend, would you?"
"An old friend? No. You? Yes."
why would I want friends? I've got a world to conquer.
One trope that happens sometimes between nemeses is the “handcuffed together” episode where the nemeses find themselves trapped in a situation where they are basically forced to work together in order to survive or escape. This can demonstrate one of two things. Either it shows how if things were different, the nemeses could’ve been friends, or it shows how conniving and selfish the more antagonistic nemesis is in order to achieve their goals while also giving the other nemesis more clues on how to win the next time they have to confront each other. The latter option acts as a great bridge for continuity when the hero comes up with a plan based on the information they wouldn’t normally know about without that interaction, something that only we as the audience always knew.
My favorite example of this is the Clone Wars episode where Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin all get captured by the pirate Hondo, who has them tied together. Their banter is perfect
Oh, yeah, kinda reminds me of how Kazuya and Heihachi worked together for a bit in a Tekken intro cutscene, only for the former to ditch the latter at the earliest opportunity.
In Death Note, this involves literal handcuffs lmao.
Basically Generator Rex and Van Kleiss or the time when Ben 10 had to team up with Kevin 11 to escape a gladiator ship. Or Slade and Robin when fighting the fire demons.
Honestly, those are super fun.
"Because sometimes your nemesis is your unorganized brain"
*Cries in ADHD*
*Cries in ADD* I mean, same.
*cries in ADHD and ASD*
Can I cry in OCD?
@@violetrose415 Everyone can cry, come join us
*Trying to cry in easely distracted*
I’d love to see a trope talk on the unreliable narrator
Love this trope! Yes, wish red talks about it!
But how would we know we can trust her?
Yes yes yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ooooooh, that a goooood idea.
Recommend Dom Casmurro if you're interested on the genre
The great thing about prophecy nemesis is that most of the time you’re screaming at them. “IF YOU DIDN’T DO ANYTHING THEY WOULDN’T WANT TO KILL YOU.”
I think about the only exception to that would be mediator or chosen one types. The Avatar, for example. As it is the Avatar's job to maintain balance and mediate conflicts, if you're causing problems, the Avatar will almost certainly intervene eventually, whether you seek them out or not. Otherwise, every other example is of a villain trying to subvert the prophecy and thus causing it.
@@saltyk9869Frankly, I think it works in Voldemort's case too.
Even if Harry's parents didn't die, he had enough natural talent to potentially be a very powerful wizard so he would give Voldemort a very hard time if Voldemort started doing super bad stuff.
"... more normal, everyday bad guys..."
*picture of ice man with freeze ray*
It's Mr. Freeze!!!
TheDeadmandillon no, it’s captain cold
@@awesomery4596 I acknowledge the possibility you're being wrong on purpose for irony's sake, but in the case that either you're not or someone less informed reads this: **Absolutely Not**, Captain Cold is part of the Flash's rogue gallery, not Batman's. TheDeadmandillon was correct, it's Mr. Freeze.
If he wears a hood, he’s captain cold. If he wears a fishbowl, he’s mr. freeze.
@Mewaddlee If it's pre-animated series, it's a clean-room suit. If it's animated series (and most post BTAS but non-New 52 comics), it's a glass display case. If it's the Arkham series, it's a scuba helmet. If it's New 52, it's fishbowl helmet.
"And all it took was a character death and literal armageddon"
Holy crud.
Believe it or not, *things get worse.*
@@MegaChickenfish yep. Waiting for season 5.
@@MegaChickenfish Oh no, how does it get worse than armageddon unless... Say it isn't so! Tell me that they didn't use the Michael Bay movie this time!!!
She ra can be summarized as "we will make you fools ship these two caracters and then we are going to fuck with their feelings so much, one of them will have not one, not two, but 3 mental breakdowns"
@@nathanielclaw2841 and it's still entertaining and well-written.
My favourite kind of nemesis is the "can't tell the difference between love and extreme rivalry" kind. I just love totally batshit insane villains like that.
"My heart strat beating faster whenever I see you, my legs feels like jelly and I got those weird reaction in my stomach. Clearly, that's a sign we are Destined Rivals and we should fight on the regular."
You could also add a pinch of internalized homophobia
"Good to see you, old friend"
"Friend? Last time we met you killed half of my friend group and then we had a dramatic duel!
"....wait friends don't do that?"
Mokuba becomes one of these nemeses (albeit the affection is platonic) in a dead fic I wrote, after getting killed, revived as an undead zombie in a process so painful it broke his mind, and then groomed by the Big Bad to become the greatest Duelist possible - this process completely destroying his personality so that the only parts of him left are his hero worship of Kaiba (not even concrete memories), which Mokuba expresses in the form of a creepy sadomasochistic obsession with facing him in a Duel, because he associates love with pain.
Nemona.
"As anyone with real siblings can confirm"
Oh yes, yes I can confirm THAT ...
Me against my brother, my brother and I against our sisters, who then run crying to our parents.
Same, though luckily not physically.
Amen
Can we get a “stop making everything about the Joker because it reduces his impact as a villain” t-shirt please?
I could say the same thing about Mapleshade. I hate it when a great villain gets ruined like that.
Yes! Bane can physically and psychology break Batman.
@@ggt47 Tom King tried to do that
Didn't really work
@@unchartedknight0193 Oh, really?
@@unchartedknight0193 I often been interested in reading but I heard his run is bad.
When you came to the point of multiple nemeses per character, I had to think about the first episode of the Ducktales reboot. Scrooge:"How dare you working for my nemesis?" Donald:"How am I supposed to keep track of your nemeses?!"😂
"Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father.... *Prepare to die* "
Idk if this counts as a nemesis
The search for a nemesis would be more accurate.
Nah nah yeah it fits.
It fits. She mentioned the type where one part may not be aware, but the other really hates them for something they did.
Holy crap I'm stealing this.
69th like, nice.
U know they’re rivals when they yell their rival’s name
Potter
"SASUKE!"
"BORUTO'S DAD!"
Hey Adora
"TETSUOOOOOOO!"
"KAAANEEEDAAAAAA!"
Damn nerd! DEKUUUUUUU
11:30 Actually you see this very well with what Iroh said earlier in the show "No. She's crazy and she needs to go down.” Iroh is a lot kinder and more forgiving than Zuko is, yet he hasn't seen Azula for a number of episodes and thus sends Zuko off to fight her, but Zuko who has seen her decay only looks sad in the end. He goes full circle, before he was only guessing what Iroh would think but in the end he really stands over his defeated sister and you can see in his eyes that he for the first time perhaps ever realizes that it's his little sister and how far gone she is.
This series is just an excuse to talk about how good avatar is isn’t it
Those all cartoons are good. That there were only few good cartoons in first decade is other story (Dark Age).
It's not Red's fault Avatar is one of the best animated shows ever made. ;P
She ain't wrong, but yeah. :D
Isn't anything that mentions it just an excuse for praising it. Including when you correct people who think you are talking about the James Cameron movie.
I'm not complaining :)
"The enemy of my enemy" trope should be an episode.
No kidding...it like my third place on my fav trope. First place go to "team lancer dating with the team smart one"for they always have a healthy relationship and second place is "Alien Hox" episode for show how far pranking can get. Plus, it did happen in real life...
“My enemy is the enemy of my other enemy” - Gordon Freeman, watching a headcrab get crushed by a computer.
It would have to reference Schlock Mercenary. Maxim 29 “The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more. No less.”
@@syabilaazri7834 With the stock episode of showing how far pranking can get, My little pony did an episode on this.
@@autisticdancer yup....not a lot of show do an episode where a small size prank can become a giant scale prank. Another example of "Alien Hox" episode is on Rescue Bot where one of the bad guy leak a video to show that the giant robot in Griffin Rock are Alien being, the Burn and the Rescue Bots ask the whole town to counter the leak by making a fake video of an alien invasion for Earlyween.
>they’re not just a quirky mini boss squad of thinly veiled analogies to everyone who bullied you in middle school
I CAME HERE TO HAVE A GOOD TIME AND HONESTLY IM FEELING SO ATTACKED RIGHT NOW
Create a meta oc villian based on Red calling you out
And then there’s me who just caught a lot of low level grief (and not completely without reason- see Red’s comment in another video about mistaking being good at math for having a personality), so no one really stands out now, about four years after college. Like, literally a year or two after I graduated I had to go by the school and someone came up and apologized for being a jerk to me when we had class together; I didn’t have the heart to tell him I couldn’t even remember his name.
the last time i was that early aphrodite was still a war goddess
You've done your homework
@@SamuelBlane i clearly didnt and watched osp instead
@@sheevpalpatine1105 Who said that WASN'T homework?
NetherWalker well I did have to do a mythology/drama presentation in English class...
...and may or may not have just rewatched every osp video and gotten an A
Aphrodite was in a certain time period worshipped as an idol of war?
Last time I was this early, there was still amontillado in the cellar
Wanna go look for it?
It would be a special occasion for the first person to take the first drink.
Who can be capable enough to do it...
Hey, kid! Do you like PROVING yourself?
utubrGaming Come on, kid, disrupt the STATUS QUO!
There still is haha trust me I’ll bring you to it haha
@@utubrGaming DO I?!
A really interesting way to do a prophesied nemesis would be where the 'evil' nemesis has been aware of it long before the 'hero', but actively trying to avoid it - fighting against this supposedly preordained fate - whilst the 'hero' goes with fate, determined to defeat the 'evil' nemesis even as they do everything to avoid becoming that. Normally with such a sort of thing you'd get the prophesied nemesis eventually becoming evil in spite of their efforts precisely because everyone treats them as if that is already what they are, due to 'unavoidable' fate; but I'd like to see what happens if they succeed, and do defeat fate - maybe the hero isn't so heroic after all?
I love blurring-the-lines-between-villains-and-heroes plots like these!
Took me a couple reads to get it - because most nemeses of this caliber DO try and defy fate, and the story almost always pulls a “self-fulfilling prophecy” twist. Maybe reword your idea for clarification.
Major spoilers for the entire first season, but one anime does something like this. Where the 'hero' has to fulfill their prophecy and save the world and the villain really wants to stop them but also kind of holds back for a while because he knows it's not their fault (and the usual "they're too weak to succeed"). Not really a nemesis relationship until the very end when it's abundantly clear that the 'hero' isn't going to give up on the prophecy. Then he goes all out and does something both the 'hero' and the audience didn't realize anyone could actually do by them self.
Spoilers
UA-cam
has
been
erasing
my line
breaks
lately
Spoilers
The name of the anime is Magic Knight Rayearth.
The idea of a villain hearing the prophecy then going out of there way to AVOID the self fulfilling part, only for the "Hero" to go full tilt onto the prophecy. Then at the end, everyone realizes something. In trying to avoid the prophecy the roles reversed, but the "Hero" and "Villain" dont notice until the "Villain" finally just stops holding back and instanukes the "Hero". When the dust settles the bystanders are cheering, much to the "Villain"'s surprise, since the "Hero" had been carving a swath of destruction in their blind path to eliminate the former villain.........and the villain had become a good ruler purely to avoid getting prophecy killed.
Then the story continues with the former villain taking that lesson to heart and making a point of maintaining the good thing he's made, fully aware whatever made the prophecy will probably strike again once the next chosen one is born, and if he stays a good ruler he will never get ended by them.
@@clayxros576 I like this idea a lot. Upending subversion of a type I've never seen before AND it retains all the juicy "destined downfall by their own hubris" goodness of the original. Mwah!
"They're also not a boss squad of every thinly veiled analogy of everyone who bullied you in middle school"
...I feel attacked
Red's just trying to get into your villain line-up.
Same, but shes right
"a lot of feelings" *standard osp love music cue plays*
Also known as Seal’s Kiss From a Rose
@@adamroquemore6410 Well yes, but in this case it's more relevant and funny because it's the consistent love/sex/relationships theme for the channel. It's about the context so the context is what I talked about.
Seal in 1995: *Now this looks like a job for me*
@@adamroquemore6410 a cover of, but yeah.
Y'all can't say there isn't some real *tension* in some of the best nemesis stories. Joker literally said he was in love with batman in a comic.
I'm going to binge this series back, and play a drinking game for every time Avatar is mentioned.
Dr Bright you’ll die, please don’t
Jellyplish 321 I’m immortal, it’s okay.
@@porchcollapse8612
You didnt check the username didja?
@@clayxros576 he is immortal at the cost of other people
@@ebros5758
His boss pays the price. He just wants to be left alone in a locker or destroyed. Out of all the things we can pin on Bright, his immortality isnt one.
I’d like to see a nemesis relationship where the protagonist hates the dark nemesis, but the dark nemesis actually loves them and is saddened by the conflict
Although I never finished it and the anime was pretty bad, akame ga kill had this. MC is forced to go undercover with the bad guys for a bit and the leader of the bad team falls in love with him.
@@themadichib0d oh god Akame ga Kill. Somehow I watched it to the end and it. Got worse. I do appreciate the inverted one-sided nemesis, and that the protag didn't end up with the title character girl, and I guess I can appreciate how it differs from your average anime where the heroes win and everyone (or mostly everyone) lives, but man. It. It was a show. It exists. It happened. I'm never watching it again hahaha
I know a game that sort of has that element if you are interested. (although I think that even telling you which game would be a spoiler)
Black Cat, either the manga or the anime (slightly different but same basic story). The main antagonist, Creed Diskenth, loves and admires the protagonist, Train Heartnet, and wants to make Train return to being the heartless assassin “the Black Cat” once more, but Train either wants nothing to do with him or hates him for trying to ruin his life
There's a manhwa called I Don't Want This Kind of Hero where a villain falls deeply in love with the protagonist Naga and begins obsessing over him. She keeps stalking him and hurting those around him out of jealousy, eventually driving him further and further away until he bitterly hates her. It's pretty interesting, I'd recommend giving it a read on Webtoons
That moment when you realize that you and your nemesis were never equals, they were just humoring you.
And then you surpass them without them knowing, and now the tables have turned!
@vegeta
Unless they still care about their existence. If it's like Saitama vs Sonic Saitama doesn't even give two shit about him
The moment you realize that this wasnt about the goddess Nemesis :C bc you read the title wrong.
WiseWillow the moment you realize that the video isn’t about Star Trek: Nemesis, because it’s Red and says “trope talk”, and you’ve gone too far down the rabbit hole of nerdieness.
I appreciate the obligatory playing of “Kiss from a Rose” whenever something particularly ✨spicy✨ is mentioned
"...Nemesis A to decide former friend B is their mortal enemy."
'Oooh, Dinkelberg!'
9:40 *Neville Longbottom intensifies*
+
“you took everything from me”
“I don’t even know who you are”
Noel Stevenson did the lovers-to-nemeses thing really well in Nimona. It was actually pretty interesting because (spoilers) in the end it wasn't actually a personal conflict, their whole reason for hating each other was manufactured by an institution which directly benefited from their rivalry, revealing them to be the real antagonists. It was really loaded because these two people who legitimately cared for each other lost everything simply to further the agenda of a corrupt institution.
yea she did a great job with them :)
Yes! I love how Nimona deals with the whole nemesis dynamic and subverts it to make the corrupt institution seem even worse.
Story idea: A pair of nemeses destined to fight one another meet before knowing about their destiny, become friends, and actively try to prevent this while slowly slipped into their destined roles. Just a thought.
That will Kamen Rider Blade. If you want to know the real ending, watch Kamen Rider Z-io...
Or how about: Subvert the trope by making it a friendship story, where it turns out the very act of predicting the future has unintentionally changed it. Then the plot will be about preventing the prophesised conflict before it even begins. Basically the "in another life we might have been friends" thing made reality, but with a lot more political scheming being foiled.
@@Gormathius that will be Kamen Rider Z-io. He, Geiz and the rest of people that he know end up being friend after he become Oma Z-io to reset the timeline and make they all stay with him
@@Gormathius Or you could have the prophesy get interpreted as saying one of them is going to kill the other, but that isn't what it means at all in the end. BECAUSE PROPHECY TWISTS.
Oh that sounds absolutely fascinating!!!! YES!!!!
When is Red and Blue having their Final Battle as Arch Nemesis to each other.
Red still needs to take revenge on blue for burning down the library of Alexandria
Maybe they aren't nemeses though. Maybe Red's nemesis is Green and Blue's is Orange.
@@curiousKuro16 Who are Oranges? I know who are Greens, but don't remember any Orange
Suggest it to the Death Battle!
Legit thought you were talking about pokemon here.
A trope that I really like is “the enemy of my enemy is a friend”. Like when either the protagonist or antagonist is in desperate need, they seek help from one of the people they’re opposing (usually if a badder villain double-crossed the lesser antagonist). I like the dynamics between the hero and rival and the character building from that. It’s also just really entertaining to watch to characters who don’t get along well being forced to cooperate out of necessity
if you haven't already, this really makes me wanna hear what you have to say about "the rival" trope
Me reading this comment: Pssh, of course Red has done a video on Rivals *proceeds to search*
...
...
O.O
@@gregg4174 I did the same thing! lol
"Quirky mini-boss squad of thinly veiled analogies to everyone who bullied you in middle school"
I can just imagine a rouge's gallery filled to the brim with shallow caricatures of mean teenagers
Winson Zhu you don’t have to
Static Shock exists (not bad though).
so what’s your ♠️ ship?
Sonichu
Lego Batman: "I don't have a nemesis, I like to fight around."
Red: Here's a trope talk about character dynamics, let's talk about Avatar
Me: Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
WAIT I HADN'T WATCHED THE DARKEST HOUR TROPE TALK, I DIDN'T REALIZE THAT SHE HAD ACKNOWLEDGED IT
She also talked about Fullmetal alchemist Brotherhood: 2nd place on the list of things she's most likely to talk about in a Trope Talks video.
Matthew St. Cyr Very happy that my two favourite shows are the ones most talked about on Trope Talks
Nemeses: they just want the attention of the protagonist.
They just want senpai to notice them.
Ah so a tsundere, got it!
@@gregg4174 when notice me Senpai goes horribly horrible wrong
It's not like they like them or anything. B- baka!
I mean, one of Catra's lines in the latest season is "Seriously, I thought I'd have to capture another town to get your attention," so you're not that far off.
“they don’t have to be, well… Monogamous.”
That line: the content, the delivery, the timing
* chef kiss *
peerless
I loved that moment at the end of She Ra season 3 where Adora at last gave up on saving Catra. In that moment Catra suddenly realizes that this whole time Adora was on her side and that’s gone now. She is alone.
I've been wondering if I should watch She Ra but got spooked off by all of the politics that swirled around it when it first came out. Is it worth the watch, as long as its not preachy I'm sure I would like it.
@@SensaiRyu
It is.
Also there were no politics surrounding it. Just a bunch of grifters trying to make money off of drama. And people who are upset that the show wasn't like the one from 30 years ago.
@@SensaiRyu It's not at all preachy it just has LGBT+ characters, and a female lead.
doubly so when Hordak finds out she's the one who screwed over his own plans and almost got him killed. She's gonna lose EVERYTHING she had built up over the previous seasons, I guarantee it.
@@SensaiRyu its like Voltron Legendary Defender, Season 1-2. But it stays good
Nemesis Type 8:
Friends
Just some friends fighting
“Perry the platypus...”
@Tom Ffrench Oh, I get it! The Platypus is a metaphor for whatever’s keeping you down!
Tom and Jerry as well
"Sometimes the real nemesis was your own disorganised brain." *winces*
This is a personal attack! We must get revenge!
"I think you and I are destined to do this forever."
- The Joker, to Batman
The joker is medium aware, and he knows that everyone loves him. As long as he's popular, he can never truly die.
Lego Batman Movie
Wait, wouldn't Zuko being a OTV in seasons 1 and 2 since his whole thing was "im gonna be the one to capture the avatar and not you"
Welllll... it wasn’t driven so much by personal hatred of Aang as by the fact that if anyone else captured the Avatar, Zuko would never be able to go home and would be a banished wanderer forever. It wasn’t like he was doing it just because he personally hated Aang that much. He just couldn’t afford to let anyone else take the credit for it.
@@nkbujvytcygvujno6006
I'd argue for narrative reasons it IS an OTV though, since Zuko straight up commits treason multiple times just so that he could capture Aang. At that point the driving motive matters less than the dynamic itself and the actions taken in support of it.
@@clayxros576 but he doesn't have anything PERSONALLY against Aang, which makes him not a nemesis
@@slkjvlkfsvnlsdfhgdght5447
I'm not convinced that matters, since he still targets Aang specifically. And I'd bet money that if there was somehow 2 Avatars, he would still pick Aang over the other one.
@@clayxros576 the first part: maybe.
the second part: why?
Catra and Adora come on screen
Me: ah yes friends to enemies to lovers
YES
yikes in the chat First time I’ve ever seen that dynamic in that order. Genius
I literally just started that show today, does that actually happen? Wait, don't tell me, I need to see for myself.
Edit: Having finally finished the show, I can confirm, and it is amazing.
I just started that show yesterday and if that happens, I'm gonna be so happy
I’d say the real description is adoptive sisters to conflicted maybe lovers to enemies to lovers with a lot of gay panic through the whole situation.
Alucard calling Alexander Anderson his “Beloved Nemesis” has stuck with me since I’ve heard it and made me fall in love with the phrase.
I think that's one of my faves, simply because they absolutely despise, and absolutely respect each other.
Alucard despises Anderson's piety, but respects his power and determination.
Anderson despises Alucard for being a blood thirsty monster, but respects his burning desire to rid the world of monsters like him.
Now I want to see the nemesis version of a love triangle
"Okay, so on hand Brad constantly bullied me through school and beat me at everything and took the girl I liked and acted super smug about it and STILL HASN'T GOTTEN HIS ASS KICKED!
But on the other hand, Dr. Gizmo actually tried to murder me and my loved ones
Could I try to be nemesis for both of them, would they find out if I did that?"
What exactly are they going to do, hate you more?
@@adrianmcbride1666 Yeh, there is no much conflict between two nemesis, what generally is point of the tingle.
@@adrianmcbride1666 they'd feel nothing towards you. Now that would hurt.
"The no-mercy variant is much more common with nemesis siblings, as anyone with real siblings can confirm." You (and or the writers) have siblings, don't you? There's something so odd about being constantly stuck with someone(s) and both of your brains aren't fully formed. Leads to all sorts of messed up stories, lol.
Can confirm, if either of my siblings decided they wanted to blow up the world, I would be 100% down to kick their ass.
@@zoro115-s6b If my brother wanted to _save_ the world, I'd still be down to kick his ass.
speak for yourselves. my brother and I get along great. Maybe it's cause I'm like a decade younger or that he's on the spectrum and I was taught to be patient with him, but I've never felt any kind of nemesis dynamic toward him.
@@DDlambchop43 Yeah, my brother and I are both on the spectrum so we don't exactly have a "typical" sibling relationship, he headbutts and hits sometimes but other than that we get along great.
I drowned, forever traumatizing my older sister
no one:
seriously no one:
red’s trope talks: LIKE IN AVATAR THE LAST AIRBENDER
*can’t blame her tho, atla truly is one of the greatest shows ever*
Lol, I would actually be horrified if Red DIDN'T use Avatar the Last Airbender as an example during her Trope Talks
I haven't watched all the trope talk videos yet, but I was wondering in the last one I watched if every single one is going to reference Avatar The Last Airbender. This one didn't disappoint.
Red needs to sell a DVD series for schools and home schoolers. I would totally buy a set for my six year old for when he's older.
Yea
Nothing yet what are u even talking about my dude. i love red and her trope talks and i love atla, the comment is funny bc it’s true.
Well if she doesn’t the comments go absolutely buck wild 💀💀💀
🎶I used to sit alone doing evil all day
But now I think someone’s gonna get in my way
Yeah, there’s someone in my life
Who doesn’t want me to exist
And I feel fine
‘Cause I’ve got a nemesis!🎶
🎵Now I hate him, and he hates me. What a wonderful animosity. Besides his hat, he wears no clothes. Now I have someone to oppose. Yes I have a nemesiiiis🎵
10:36 I love how you say "will not stop trying to blow up the earth"
Joker: *pulls gun*
Batman: *effortlessly slaps gun from his hands*
Joker: ... you weren't supposed to do that...
"because sometimes the real arch nemesis is your disorganized brain" wow, just call me out
Ex. of the difference between antagonist and villain:
Macbeth’s main antagonist is Macduff. But who ordered the murder of Macduff’s children? Macduff=antagonist, Macbeth=villain
“Ah, Perry the Platypus, how unexpected... and by unexpected I mean, COMPLETELY EXPECTED!!!!!!”
I literally just noticed the Achilles and Patroclus statue on the right side of the screen.
Pretty sure its Dante and Virgil
Eeeh the height difference between Burrito boi and his heterosexual life partner wasn't that large.
The small dude has long sleeves so it's probably Dante and Virgil, our two fanfic writers.
I love how Megatron (in pretty much any incarnation except IDW) is Nemesis, Antagonist, and Villain all rolled into one.
“You just destroyed my favorite clothing store... PREPARE TO DIE.”
-Coco Adel (RWBY)
Words cannot describe how awesome that woman is.
Minigun in a handbag
@@roguerazac7071 *cough* IS a handbag *cough*
It was cool. Shame that flipping out like that over something so _petty_ in the middle of what sounded like a potentially Vale-ending crisis, and also annihilating an entire flock of powerful Grimm, made it hard to take the Grimm seriously as threats.
And then a f*ing sports foul caused enough negative emotions to make the Grimm overrun Vale _without_ a breach.
I love that woman.
Red: ‘Arranged Marriage of the Nemesis-world’... ‘Nemesis-relationships don’t have to be- monogamous’
Me: Bahahaha!
Trope talk: nemeses!
Me: this better be abt catra
the trope talk: *is abt catra*
me: nice
Nemesis: _Gives finger_
Protagonist: _Shocked Pikachu_
How long until we get “the next generation” trope talk?
Probably only the next generation Red will talk about it.
If they do cover it, I hope there's a segment on the "Generation Xerox" subtrope. I know history repeats itself, but fiction has a tendency to accelerate the process.
That’s actually one I would like to see her cover. It really is a frequently used one with lots of room for analysis and plenty of material recently.
@@alexross1816 Blame the network buddy, I loved that little shit.
@@fruitygarlic3601 Do we even need to say Skins UK and not just Skins at this point? :P The adaptation is awful isn't it?! But yes, Skins is one of the few times that I actually like the use of The Next Generation.
Remember kids, a *bitter rival* hates you because they oppose you. A *nemesis* opposes you because they hate you.
5:39 “this usually requires a protagonist intervention to get them to chill out and stop self destructing” *amethyst and Steven immediately blow up in a mushroom cloud*
I JUST CAME TO THE COMMENTS TO SAY THIS 😂
“And they’re also not a quirky mini boss squad that’s a thinly veiled analogy to every one who bullied you in middle school”
Best line in the video imo.
12:35 Batman also has a lot of dark mirrors in his rogues gallery, the Riddler, Two Face, Ras al Ghul. Even to some extent the joker himself in that they are both incredibly intelligent. It's often said Batman is as crazy as the villain he fights, he just has some people around him like Dick and Alfred who keeps him using that for good, which makes it very glaring when they make Batman a loner all the time in movies.
"Of course, there's also a slight variant where the hero see the villain as a better version of themselves..." *shows and describes a majority chunk of Amethyst's character arc*
As someone with ADHD, Depression, and Trauma (that's right, the triple threat), I can whole-heartedly agree that the REAL arch-nemesis is my own disorganized brain.
The evolution of Catra's facial expression over the course of 5 seconds is amazing 8:48.
To me It reads something like:
What am I seeing right now?
Oh, fuck, you're actually going to kill me.
Wow, I really fucked up.
You've never looked at me like that before.
What the hell do I do now?
I've really lost you.
Alright, I guess that's how it is.
I'm still going to beat you, I just have no idea how.
"Because sometimes the real arch nemeses... were the friends we made along the way"
"Wait, I like to talk too." - The most glorious line ever spoken in fiction.
Eric Kimball I feel like I heard that before, where is it from?
@@zhamac1 Batman Beyond Return of the Joker:
BRUCE: Joker likes to talk, don't let him get in your head.
TERRY: Wait, I like to talk too.
(Terry proceeds to heckle the Joker into a villainous breakdown)
Noon3rs ah ok, that’s it. I thought I heard that in a parody too, but yeah I remember that. Thanks.
Its from "Batman Beyond, Return of the Joker". Terry aka Batman Beyond is fighting the resurrected Joker, with elderly Bruce Wayne is giving advice over the radio.
Terry: "He's tough. Any suggestions, boss?"
Bruce: "Joker's vain and likes to talk. He'll try to distract you, but don't listen. Block it out and power on through."
Terry (to himself): "Wait, I like to talk too"
Then commences the second greatest owning of the Joker to ever be put the film.
What, you ask, is the greatest owning of the Joker? Why this of course:
ua-cam.com/video/JZ-jWG8vdxU/v-deo.html
@@Noon3rs best part there is how much it gets under the joker's skin
I was looking for a good def of nemesis, and you sumed it up perfectly. “A Nemesis is just a personal antagonist”
“This is just Dio and Jonathan Joestar”
And then the whole Joestar line in general
It bassically fits every single jojo and their part's villain
@@discmanthecdlord Except Part 8, where the true villain hasn't been introduce yet, and Hat Josuke just beats up people until they become his friend or die.
I think part three is prophetic, but can someone please do the rest who isn't as tired as I am and watched/read jojo more recent (what's a better word for that)
@@Skeloperch yeah part 8 really dosent have a main villain
That... that Joker talk sums up one of my issues with "The Batman Who Laughs", an evil Batman from another dimension who basically got brainwashed into *being* another Joker, but with Bruce's resources and intellect. It puts the Joker into too much focus.
Admittedly, that's why when Mr. J and Batman TEAMED UP against him at the end of Dark Knights Metal it had such an impact. The idea that TBWL was such a massive threat that they spontaneously teamed up against him was something TBWL had trouble comprehending. Thus, I felt the story of Edgelord Joke-Bat should have ended there.
INSTEAD he gets his own miniseries in the comics. And AGAIN it ends up with Joker and Batman teaming up against him. Like... we already had this. His story should be done.
Go back to Batman in conflict with Victor Fries over the man's amoral methods to get funding and research to cure his wife. Go back to other villains, DC, and stop. Emphasizing. The Joker.
and to be fair he was only one evil batman among many in the event that introduced him. the issue is he's the only one who got really popular and thus stuck around.
I like The Batman Who Laughs but DC is milking him like a cow and slamming him everywhere. Its annoying
Yep, the concept itself is good, interesting, it shows how unhinged Batman can be if he turns out like the Joker, an idea explored in Batman Arkham Knight. But he should've just been a one-off character that you could maybe bring back in a couple of years instead of what we have now. He got a 7 issue miniseries, okay, not too bad, it was interesting. But instead of being done there nope, let's give him more of a spotlight by making it so that he infected Jim Gordon and Shazam of all people and make the Batman/Superman run all about him. Yes, Batman Who Laughs and the Joker are cool characters, but for fuck sake can we stop focusing on Joker and his edgy wannabe and focus on other villains like Freeze or Scarecrow who are pretty interesting as well and that you can make some interesting stories with as well? Joker is the cake of Batman stories, it's sweet, tastes nice, but too much cake makes you sick of it after some time and makes you crave something new, and not the same cake but with a different frosting.
My idea for the Joker would be to actually demote him down from Arch-Villain Mastermind into more of a semi-mercenary villain hitman offering his services to any crime boss or master villain worried that the Batman might interfere with their plans. Let's face it, what Joker REALLY wants is to get under Batman's skin, so why bother with elaborate criminal schemes in the hopes of attracting Batman's attention, when you can just get paid by other villains to mess with Batman?
Out of all the evil Batmen i liked Murder Machine the most, Batman is now twisted by a computer image of Alfred that he refers to as Father
I love all the wide examples like She-ra, Batman, Avatar, Tranformers, Spiderman, etc.. This is great.
Disappointed at the complete absence of Nemesis from Resident Evil.
or Nemesis @ Alton Towers
He's a nemesis in name only, he's just a monster ordered to kill STAR members and Jill has no personal connection to him other that he was made by Umbrella. So a classic villain.
or Nemesis from gen:LOCK (talk about dark reflection)
samtemdo8 STAAAAARRS!!!
Nemesis hasn't got a personality to speak of, so there's no personal relationship with anyone it fights. It's actually a really clever subversion in that it's the "nemesis" of the PLAYER, rather than the player character.
THANK YOU. The Joker is fine for what he is, like you said, but holy shit he's not the only thing that Batman is for. He works BECAUSE the rest of Batman's rogues gallery is like they are. He's a villain that is good for a specific thing, not some tortured GAMERS RISE UP nonsense.
also something, something, Homestuck.
Don't forget Harvey Dent. He blames Batman for his disfigurement and that has warped his mind. So there's a nemesis deal there, but not Joker/Batman level.
“Yeah, but that’s like, your opinion man”
Red Hood is also interesting because he’s a completely intentional dark reflection nemesis for Batman.
@@Rick586 is there another one now or is jason todd still considered the red hood even tho he's techincally on batman's side.
I just want mainstream media and videogames to focus on batman villains who AREN'T THE FUCKING JOKER. Even when he was killed off in Arkham City, Arkham Knight STILL Made the game aprtly about Batman's relationship with the Joker
My favorite is when its a Nemesis henchmen who gets closest to defeat the hero. Like when Harley nearly defeats batman in the animated series and has a better plan than the joker ever could think of.
My favorite nemesis stories are those where both are dead set convinced they are saving or trying to save the other.