Take Note! When editing this some audio was corrupted so Tulus pulled a portion of it from Broman's stream, hence why you can hear some of Ben's alerts in the background (Yeah daddy being scarily on brand). Also! Huge thanks to Ben for coming on the stream! It's always a pleasure and I look forward to seeing him again some time soon!
Hey Byf, This is going way back to vanilla D1 if I remember right, but I wanna say the ghost in the Shrine of Oryx is referencing the "signal" the shrine was broadcasting, which was being carried via the worm god name chant. To be fair, that's a bit of speculation about it being a carrier signal, but I'm sure grimoire or a transcript is out there somewhere to give more detail.
@@darthzanon I wouldn't be all too surprised if Nokris brought himself back to life and then Oryx. As a high level necromancer what better way to stick it to the people that banished you than to resurrect yourself and then your father, the supposed god of your race? It would be pretty cool but it's just a what if as you said.
Around 23:00, the idea that the Deathsong was created by reversing the "Lifesong" lends some credibility to the chronicon entry taking about how the guardians will reverse the Deathsong and sing Toland back to life. Hmmmm
They kinda contradict each other. Sword logic - the strongest survive. But they're made up of weaker parts. Bomb logic - more complex things survive. But to make the whole better the individual parts need to be the strongest that they can be. It kind of links to how they say that light and dark must be around. They believe their ideology is better. But for either to work the other also needs to be playing a part.
@@laras8911 because a bomb is a very complex machine made up of many harmless parts when alone, but once combined a bomb is massively powerful/destructive
Ghostly Razgriz The sword logic doesn’t require little parts. Its about the simplest answer. This is why the darkness ships are triangle like... the simplest shape with the least number of lines/angles, the light/traveler is a circle/sphere... an infinitely complex shape...
I believe it mentions in the lore that eris took it before the red war, meaning it's in her posession. I'm not 100% sure on that though I'll have to go through the lore and see if I can find exactly where it's at.
@@jaxonbuckway3540 there's only confirmation that Shaxx took Razelighter, and the Eliksni took Outbreak Prime, nothing about ToM, but it is speculated that she did, and I sure hope she did
Hey Byf, I really appreciate videos like this. It's more exploring the lore instead of just reading it. I imagine it's easier because you don't have to write a script as well. I love videos like this and the raid along videos.
This kind of video is just great. Seeing Lore Masters just talking about viewpoints and just generally talking about the games lore in greater depth, to me is really interesting. Gotta love Byf and Broman for this. MORE VIDEOS LIKE THIS PLEASE BYF!!!
I believe that the game the light developed a feeling for the things it creates much like a mother would. It developed loved and wanted to see its creations live. The darkness did what it was suppose to and killed what the light created. Over time the light changed the game and created something that wouldn’t die namely the Vex. The darkness in turn continued its job and created the sword logic. As the beings that used the sword logic killed more and more the light thought of new ways to make a more perfect way of making sure her creations wouldn’t die. After several trials and errors it realized you can’t keep things from dying but what if you could bring it back? Thus it created ghosts. This would explain why the Vex simulate a world without both light and dark becuase they were suppose to exist past the game. Also it would explain why the ghosts can bring a guardian back also because they use the lights frequency that creates life but not a soul. Hence why we come back the first time we have no memories but Exo’s do because their memories are now data. As for the sword logic, the strongest will kill until it’s the last and then it has to be the strongest. But if it’s the last then there is nothing left to compare to and thus it will die becuase the worm will over take it and then the worm will die with nothing to feed on.
Only about halfway through but I had a thought about the new “heretical” hive and their approach to bringing back oryx; are they not exercising bomb logic to trump the sword logic death to bring him back? The collective will of many to overcome the will of one? The heresy isn’t merely the necromancy, the heresy is the bomb logic approach cast as several steps of sword logic
My thoughts: -The light and dark are having this game but unlike just a simple 2 part reality of death and life, the light took the construct of the bomb logic (use a bundle of simple ideas to create a complex one) and created the multiverse of expansion thus leaning into a thought that so long as in 1 time line across the multiverse holds a guardian that guardian can be used as a copy to create your own guardian similar to a Minecraft world seed code as found in Minecraft. Thus here by making it seem similar to how the Vex in this recent raid work but we pulled the realities together making it so that we could kill that constructs code. Thus killing that construct in all realities, similar as to why the ghost couldn’t bring its guardian back. The guardian was gone from all multiverse instances. - Then bringing together the multiverse theory, it might also provide a reason as to why the traveler could have created the vex. For which, in turn then though time teleportation might expand the multi dimensional universe, and in that, giving reason as to why the garden is known as “a place of life.” So possibly, the vex’s purpose was creating that multi time line possibility for the ghosts to exists and pull guardians through and thus making an ever living flower/guardian thanks to the garden. Although soon after, when the darkness came and the vex couldn’t analyze it, knowing the law of the darkness (death) and sword logic(strongest survive), the vex were confused in their own way on what to do. The vex wanted to follow their original programming of following the light and creating multiverses but if they ignored the darkness, they would be going against the light due to no longer being able to create new multiverses as they would soon cease to exist because of darkness’s law of death. However, in order to follow the light and continue to create multiverses, the vex would have to live another day, and to do so, the vex would have to start by bathing in darkness and following it. As such it is an easy thought as to how and why the vex fought against each other. -It is possible the light was vexed because the darkness used the sword logic (simple strongest survive) and produced a similar aspect in multi dimensional birth of the bomb logic. Such as crota and orix and how they each held their real body but also their dimension that held their soul. -As for Orix, I believe we will end up in a story of the hive reviving him and then we learn that he was revived through the darkness to where he has gone beyond that of a taken and is in fact even more powerful having gone past the death song with knowledge of sword logic. Then taking the nightmares from the moon, Orix combines them to summon and revive crota from the grave but as a similar shadow to Orix. Then maybe we have to dive into the pits, defeat the new hive champion, defeat crota’s daughter and obtaining the death song tomb, and possibly lock both crota and Orix in a combined soul relm similar to a reversed version of what Orix did with the dreadnaught. Then the raid will be entering the combined soul relm. Or something similar.
Imagine flowers in the game that don’t die when they’re supposed to, and how that would affect the rest of the pattern in the flower game. I feel like the darkness is trying to reverse the effects of our paracausal effects on the game. The light’s “new rule” was to revive the flower that it killed one day, which changed the pattern from that point all the way out. the salvation that it talks about is actually to return all of our stuff back to being dead. It probably also sees everything the light directly interacted with as a smear on the “perfection” so it’s sowing all this chaos to get us to destroy ourselves, since I don’t think the darkness can directly remove our light (opposite polarity of power or something)
Maybe the darkness zones are points where the enemies are so strong that no other Guardian from other dimensions have succeeded and we are the only ones who can succeed in this timeline or dimension
I thought they were more of an over-saturation of Darkness, so much that it stifles the ghosts' connection to the Traveler, and therefore limits respawning. The ghosts must aid each other to revive a guardian, because they don't have enough 'bandwidth' to do it on their own.
thdo e to Oh what n🙊 o Oh @@Xenronnify d ccc x ccc do dc want c oh c ok 👌 just called saw ome think 💭 can. I’m gI c ccc ccc o👀 ing. I’m me aIcuuvuu cu I c cccco c cccc. Ok nd
Wish I could be around for the live version. So many times I wanted to point out a lore book here and there. The Revelations one from the Moon lost sectors, is great - I couldn't help but read every one I got. As the story reveals what happened. Hope you do a video on that or at least how a number of lore books in Shadowkeep are timed around the collapse.
"Whether the Vex were the rule created by the Traveler" I called this back in week 1 of Unveiling, and I am both terrified and intrigued by the possibility of that being right. DISCLAIMER: Still spinfoil at the moment, want to reinforce that
I wanna go one further and say that the vex were the original or at least previous versions of the traveler that the light created as it’s new rule. The way they operate is strikingly similar
Plz plz plz plz plz, make something like this again byf, it was aweeeeesome to see you discuss lore with someone else, this could even become a monthly or seasonal podcast, you we’ll listen.
The "realm" that the ghost grimoire talks about sounds like mercury's infinite forest. A realm beyond the border that they can't see, where their names lie.
The blue star and the topological structure being in the grimoire card @1:21:50 reminds me of the description of 2082 Volantis from the Clovis Bray journal found with Collector's Beyond Light
no but seriously I do think "vexed" in the Flower Game is at least hinting at the vex like think about it the Vex are all about patterns, right? about spreading the pattern everywhere, etc. and they're like a kind of time-traveling gray goo, converting stuff into mroe of themselves. meanwhile, how is the pattern the Gardener doesn't like described? "they have no purpose except to subsume all other purposes." seems similar, right? then again, there's also the fact that apparently the world didn't really exist at that point, so idk
took me nearly 2 hrs 1:48:53 to realize they were playing AND speaking at the same time, i thought it was just audio looped over gameplay lmao, man to be able to go into deep thought at the same time as playing. Kudos.
The Gardener was VEXed by one pattern always winning. The pattern that had won all previous universes escaped into ours and first formed silica shells (Radiolaria). The Vex were the previous final pattern, yall.
About the flower game: I read it as a system functioning in such a way where the Darkness always won. It's like Nim; second player always wins, simply by the mathematical rules of the game. Ergo, of course the Gardener would want to change it, and of course the Winnower would want it to stay the same. Since it has been altered, however, now it has the "excuse" to get violently competitive.
Came up with this theory in the first part of the video, you guys talk about the death song being created from a song of light and how they are gardeners, similar to how the traveler is referenced as a gardener, my theory is that the vex were created by the traveler long ago. They are machine (or technically just radiolaria, but we see them as machines) and their goal is to find the final shape of the universe, as they were corrupted by the darkness, or possibly they have existed long enough for the laws of the universe to simply revert them back to a form where they obey the laws of the final, simple shape of the universe (such as the flower in "the flower game" which makes the vex possibly the flower itself in the metaphor). As I write this I'm less and less sure whether the vex are part of the light or the darkness as a lot of what I have written (and deleted) very directly contradicts itself, but I am becoming more and more certain that the vex are a more central part of the universe than any of the other races we've seen so far. They may not be as powerful or as ancient as the darkness and light itself, but are perhaps a combination of the two, or simply the most neutral form of existence in the universe, embodying the basic laws of the universe itself. Actually that one makes more sense now that I think about it, as the gardener earlier chose to create new laws for the multiverse, and the darkness disagreed and stated the simple final shape is the only way. The vex are the purest form of our universe, but the light and darkness exist beyond the universe, possibly even outside the multi-verse, and can attempt to alter the vex and mold them like clay into a form that suits them. But with darkness and light weaving the universe together, and therefore the vex, the vex is neither an instrument of light or dark, yet still contains very strong aspects of the light and dark. I really wish I could expand on this theory more, as every single piece of lore I can think of that mentions something related to the origin of the light and dark, and the relationship between them and the vex, seems to support this more and more. I'm probably going to edit this and come back as holy shit I'm realizing I could make a whole fucking book of just drawing connections and speculating now that I think of this more. Byf, if you see this, love you dad, but also please consider this for a video cuz I think this would not only make great content but I would also just like some outside input on this.
when you mentioned ''the great game'' made me think of the game that the Chaos Gods are ''playing'' in the warp in 40k/AoS... if one of them 'wins' every thing dies and one of them knows that fact, but also knows that they will die when one of them wins...
I love the fact that Broman is not just play the gmae and grind...he knows the lore and talking with Byf for deep lore and speculate is glorious. I adore thses kinds of videos !!!
I planned to only watch like an hour and I watched the whole thing and I have one thing to say to you Byf... *LET ME BE EDGY WITH MY DARK MODE TWITTER*
Enjoyed this. Would be cool to see more convos like this monthly. I wonder if Bungie has fleshed out what they wanna do and where they wanna go with Destiny. So much potential with this story.
It can’t be saint-14, as he will always die in the infinite forest. He will definitely turn up in the future, and come to the tower, but he will end up dying in the infinite forest.
@@crayoneater4247 perhaps him dying is part of the fucked up timeline we have to fix. just how you being a negative nancy might also have to be fixed next season...jk👍
Saint’s... dead dude. I’m sorry but he was probably a hero in life, given his name. And in death he was chosen by the light to fight again. He was beloved by all who knew him. Even his enemies, grew to respect him. So much so that the vex, cold and unfeeling, built a great shrine in his honor, symbolic of his conquest. Saint did everything he did out of love. For mankind. For the city. For his friends. He is a martyr. An example for all guardians and the standard by which any Titan would be honored to even compare themselves. Why would you want to deny this legend his rest? He had a perfect ending. That’s more than any of us can hope for. It’s more than most of us will get.
Gotta question about the part where you guys discuss how Ghosts ressurect. If Broman's interpretation on how ghost ressurect ghost is true, the bring a different guardian from a different timeline, a guardian that would likely to win the battle, then that would mean there's a plothole. In the Zavala trailer, if that is to be interpreted as all accurate, we see that Zavala's ghost does indeed just revive a dead awoken body. I just believe Ghost just simply defibrillate(is that a word?) back to life using Light.
This video is pure magic🔥 and I’m only half way through it, will edit later with final thoughts . Edit** holy sh*t, this was amazing! We need more collabs!
When speaking of the flower game, I can't help but thing of the Angle problem and how that kinda reflects the travel getting chased by the pyramid ships, a game played on the same board, with added rules
@@thehungarywaffleinc.7775 Oh nice! There were only 3 cast members for shadpwkeep listed, Shaxx, Eris and some other actress i didnt recognize, so I assumed it was Savathùn. Glad we'll be able to hear from saint though.
I think something that /could/ be a connection, even if tenuous, is that the feathers we collect for the subclasses in forsaken are a blue-ish white. Imo it's very possible there might be a connection between that and the tree of silver wings, which might give us some insight into what that tree does.
It's the remnants of the First Navigator, the Heir of the Osmium Court, the Past and Future Taken King. You think that a filthy Cabal bombardment is going to destroy that?
I believe it was stated somewhere that Eris retrieved it sometime before the Red War. So if that is in fact the case, then Touch of Malice is currently in Eris's possession
Kyle Edwards the gun frame is very possibly indestructible. It’s made of HADIUM, aka that stuff that The Dreadnaught is made of that the Queen’s harbingers couldn’t scratch. Even if it isn’t currently in Eris’s Possesion (which it probably is), no cabal bombardment will shatter it.
Love the dialog. This video carried me thru work that half of day. Def following your cohost going forward n hope he has content like this too! Hope yu guys figure it out. 3hrs a season is good
How I've interpreted the unveiling so far if that the gardener and winnower exist in the space between universes, the void( can't remember what piece of lore said it but there was lore from d1 which stated the traveller came from the void) , and these flowers that they care for are the universes in the multiverse, the multiverse being the the overall flower game. It mentions how the gardener became "vexed" (a very specific choice of word there), and when the gardener is expressing it's dissatisfaction with how the game was it refers to "pests that always get in the way and destroy anything interesting that manifests" ie the pattern destroys anything that is not it, which is the vex, its literally what the vex do. This seems to me as though the vex are the winners of the previous universes cared for before the gardeners dissatisfaction, they were the final shape, the winners, what nature always resulted in. These universes were kept in line with the rules which was how the universes should be naturally without the light and dark consciously involving themselves, they do their natural part and then simply observe what happens unlike the universe we currently play in. The gardener decided to make its new rule to "reward those who don't conform" which means it will bless those that it believes to be worthy, this is exactly what the traveller does (whether you believe the traveller is the light or an agent of the light this still makes sense), so the universe we play in, being the one where the gardener broke the rules, explains why the vex (which came to our universe through the void when crota tore a wound in reality, and if you were to travel from one universe to another you'd have to travel on the road that is between these destinations, the void) struggle greatly when it comes to paracausal element like the light and dark, they don't understand it because they have never seen anything like it before because they weren't the rules of their universes which were kept in line with the rules (no light or dark, just the natural process), and as the winnower said about what the gardener referred to as pests, they have no desire but the desire to continue to exist and make existence suit them, so of course they came to play their hand in this game, they want to continue to exist. They are the previous champions of the game but are now struggling in this unfamiliar "ring" they are now fighting in as it's a different setting with new rules, they're not fighting on their "home turf" and so are at a disadvantage. And when it comes to the winnower breaking it's own rules and seeming hypocritical for critiscing the gardener for breaking the rules, I think it is only trying to get things back in line with the rules, it's destroying all the "cysts" that the gardener is creating with it's own champions like Oryx, that would be the only way to get the game back in line, if one players has gone rogue and do their own thing, you'd have to start playing by their rules to convert it back to how it was originally, without it's own champions to hunt down and eradicate anything to do with the light it would likely find it incredibly difficult to destroy all of the "cysts" the gardener is creating. Anyway that's just how I've understood what has been explained in the lore book so far, let me know your thoughts on that theory dude. Btw byf if you remember a dude tbagging at you in the dreaming city at the strand where Petra was a few months ago, that was me i just wanted to say hi 😊, saw your name pop up and was like no way it's byf! 😂
![Destiny Lore - The Complete Story of The Darkness! [Timeline and Lore explained]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/7bWbn5bk_uc/mqdefault.jpg)
![Destiny Lore - The Complete Story of The Darkness! [Timeline and Lore explained]](/img/tr.png)
Take Note! When editing this some audio was corrupted so Tulus pulled a portion of it from Broman's stream, hence why you can hear some of Ben's alerts in the background (Yeah daddy being scarily on brand).
Also! Huge thanks to Ben for coming on the stream! It's always a pleasure and I look forward to seeing him again some time soon!
You forgot to pin this.
*Hearing about Oryx possibly coming back*
Me: No one’s ever really gone!
Hahahaha
this video format is nice. forgot to pin ur comment too. enjoy your day/night byf and same to all others here
I was thinking about Babylon 5 and how this could end the same way, so imagine my surprise when you make the exact same point!
Hey Byf, This is going way back to vanilla D1 if I remember right, but I wanna say the ghost in the Shrine of Oryx is referencing the "signal" the shrine was broadcasting, which was being carried via the worm god name chant. To be fair, that's a bit of speculation about it being a carrier signal, but I'm sure grimoire or a transcript is out there somewhere to give more detail.
*Nokris gets banished for using necromancy*
Random Hive: "guys, let's use necromancy to bring back Oryx."
Nokris: "Am I a joke to you?"
I was literally thinking “wait, aren’t the nightmares kind of heretical to the sword logic?
Insayion 8 what if in the end it’s Noc who brought back Oryx (what if Scenario)
@@darthzanon I wouldn't be all too surprised if Nokris brought himself back to life and then Oryx. As a high level necromancer what better way to stick it to the people that banished you than to resurrect yourself and then your father, the supposed god of your race? It would be pretty cool but it's just a what if as you said.
@@joshuamcclung8362 nah, it's not the same as necromancy. More just mindless apparition
@@franciscovazquezjr4550 "Sup dad. Nice life you got there. Wonder how you got it?"
And Oryx, King of shapes, sayeth “I will become a gun, and Omar Agah and Xol totally won’t copy my idea. Aiat”
And just like the bastards they are, they totally went against that
Xol a weak pathetic bitch worm
I's that why I did get taken powers it's the only reason i wanted to.kill him same with riven (not a wyrm but close )
riven totally won't steal the idea either
100000% total original idea there is no possible way this can be copied what so ever
Around 23:00, the idea that the Deathsong was created by reversing the "Lifesong" lends some credibility to the chronicon entry taking about how the guardians will reverse the Deathsong and sing Toland back to life.
Hmmmm
Inb4 huskyraid comes out of retirement
But how believable is the chronicon though
*No Byf videos for a while*
"I sure do miss his videos..."
*Drops a 3 hour video*
"Thank you, Lore Daddy..."
Lol "lore daddy:
He is a lore master
@@xdsmile5359 He is Lore Daddy
Sword Logic: The strong are strongest alone.
Bomb logic: Rome wasn't built in a day.
They kinda contradict each other.
Sword logic - the strongest survive. But they're made up of weaker parts.
Bomb logic - more complex things survive. But to make the whole better the individual parts need to be the strongest that they can be.
It kind of links to how they say that light and dark must be around.
They believe their ideology is better. But for either to work the other also needs to be playing a part.
Why is it called bomb logic that my question right now
@@laras8911 because a bomb is a very complex machine made up of many harmless parts when alone, but once combined a bomb is massively powerful/destructive
Ghostly Razgriz The sword logic doesn’t require little parts. Its about the simplest answer. This is why the darkness ships are triangle like... the simplest shape with the least number of lines/angles, the light/traveler is a circle/sphere... an infinitely complex shape...
@@laras8911 why didn't you watch the video, then ask a question that was answered in the video? that my question right now
Taken Siva nightmares
“Now this is an avengers level threat!"
*haha we're in danger*
I'm sorry, I had both a stroke and a nightmare at the thought of Taken SIVA
renaissent I see that and I raise you vex addicted to SIVA while worshiping darkness
What...what have you done?
So then as guardians, we kill it, but some stupid ghost revives it.
*TAKEN SIVA NIGHTMARE GUARDIANS*
Xur does have a voice line that goes along the lines of "There is a door in the woods. It is opening..."
The thing is though that the nine “knows all” or it’s at least implied
I've heard that a few times and it still concerns me as how vauge it is and how somewhat clear it's said he says alot of interesting things
Nimm
Oryx as ToM: Okay, the guardian will pick meToM for the next raid.
Ghaul: I think today we should blow up the Guardian's armory
I believe it mentions in the lore that eris took it before the red war, meaning it's in her posession. I'm not 100% sure on that though I'll have to go through the lore and see if I can find exactly where it's at.
Also you forgot about wrath of the machine
@@jaxonbuckway3540 where and why did she steal my stuff that bitch
@@jaxonbuckway3540 Let me know if you find any info on that.
@@jaxonbuckway3540 there's only confirmation that Shaxx took Razelighter, and the Eliksni took Outbreak Prime, nothing about ToM, but it is speculated that she did, and I sure hope she did
2:40:50
"Darkness, what have you got there?"
"A KNIFE!"
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO--"
I've seen that video! Very happy now 😊
If Oryx was still alive, he’d copyright strike all the lore channels.
"I will take them (down)"
Nah, I like them.
Oryx The Taken King sup Oryx, when u resing? I miss King’s Fall😢
@@bobisconsumed520 hes stuck in bad juju
@@seidoukan uhh.. he's not
watching Byf delete the outlaw killclip optative hurts
Its okay bru. He probably already has one in his vault anyway
sucks to be a bad gun
@@warlockceo1549 it's not a bad gun though. It's nothing special, but it's not bad
Hearing Byf say "Butchers everyone." Was as spectacular as Doug Marcaida saying "It will keel."
59:17 heard that, and immediately had Shaxx “this is amazing” “YEEEEEEESSSS” (and Cayde; “do it again!”) playing in my head
Hey Byf, I really appreciate videos like this. It's more exploring the lore instead of just reading it. I imagine it's easier because you don't have to write a script as well. I love videos like this and the raid along videos.
The deepest dive into the deepest lore and deepest philosophy. A very fascinating watch and listen thanks Byf and Broman!
Take a shot everytime Byf says: "By that same token."
My liver just punched me in the face.
my son is dead, why did you challenge him to do this?!
I dun Shee any fing rong with thish ideah!
People will die
I'm in the hospital for alcohol poisoning
Honestly never thought Ben was such a lore nerd lol! Absolutely love this, wish I could have caught it live!
Wow byf, this makes it like 5 and a half hours of content this past week. You really have been putting 100% in. Loremaster number 1, always.
Now I need one of this with (myelin games). Just you two talking about the lore.
@Adam Des was that a joke pun because he said "Lord" instead of "Lore" if yes - props, if no - I still agree
Tbh I think that collab should wait to happen till the Darkness race is revealed
Hell yes!
@@DanSapienza18 Aiyat
dont you know that Byf and Myelin are like Dredgen Yor and Shin Malphur? lol
I really like the guest star "horses, fear of Mithrax"
Seems he hates them.
Oryx: flip the gun the payoff is huge
Savathun:flips gun
oryx:I TURNED MYSELF INTO A GUN .
Gotta love Rick & Morty refs.
Pickle Oryx
Also oryx:"vile snickering"
@@MrAxmen26 I th, I think that one went over my head, bro.
Gun oryx
Oryx: "i will give the sword logic to the person who kills me"
*guardians kill him*
Oryx: "lmao i didn't say they could *take* the sword logic"
This kind of video is just great. Seeing Lore Masters just talking about viewpoints and just generally talking about the games lore in greater depth, to me is really interesting. Gotta love Byf and Broman for this. MORE VIDEOS LIKE THIS PLEASE BYF!!!
If Byf, Mylein, and AnonPig did this together I could listen for days.
Could listen for days it would probably last for days 😅 would he good though 👍
Savathun: I’m going to be the next big thing
Darkness: hold my beer
I believe that the game the light developed a feeling for the things it creates much like a mother would. It developed loved and wanted to see its creations live. The darkness did what it was suppose to and killed what the light created. Over time the light changed the game and created something that wouldn’t die namely the Vex. The darkness in turn continued its job and created the sword logic. As the beings that used the sword logic killed more and more the light thought of new ways to make a more perfect way of making sure her creations wouldn’t die. After several trials and errors it realized you can’t keep things from dying but what if you could bring it back? Thus it created ghosts. This would explain why the Vex simulate a world without both light and dark becuase they were suppose to exist past the game. Also it would explain why the ghosts can bring a guardian back also because they use the lights frequency that creates life but not a soul. Hence why we come back the first time we have no memories but Exo’s do because their memories are now data. As for the sword logic, the strongest will kill until it’s the last and then it has to be the strongest. But if it’s the last then there is nothing left to compare to and thus it will die becuase the worm will over take it and then the worm will die with nothing to feed on.
Shout out to my roommate, Horses, Fear of Mithrax at 49:45
@Scikosis did he see this vid?
@@johngancarcik5682 lmao yea we cracked the fuck up about it actually the day it dropped
Only about halfway through but I had a thought about the new “heretical” hive and their approach to bringing back oryx; are they not exercising bomb logic to trump the sword logic death to bring him back? The collective will of many to overcome the will of one? The heresy isn’t merely the necromancy, the heresy is the bomb logic approach cast as several steps of sword logic
My thoughts:
-The light and dark are having this game but unlike just a simple 2 part reality of death and life, the light took the construct of the bomb logic (use a bundle of simple ideas to create a complex one) and created the multiverse of expansion thus leaning into a thought that so long as in 1 time line across the multiverse holds a guardian that guardian can be used as a copy to create your own guardian similar to a Minecraft world seed code as found in Minecraft. Thus here by making it seem similar to how the Vex in this recent raid work but we pulled the realities together making it so that we could kill that constructs code. Thus killing that construct in all realities, similar as to why the ghost couldn’t bring its guardian back. The guardian was gone from all multiverse instances.
- Then bringing together the multiverse theory, it might also provide a reason as to why the traveler could have created the vex. For which, in turn then though time teleportation might expand the multi dimensional universe, and in that, giving reason as to why the garden is known as “a place of life.” So possibly, the vex’s purpose was creating that multi time line possibility for the ghosts to exists and pull guardians through and thus making an ever living flower/guardian thanks to the garden. Although soon after, when the darkness came and the vex couldn’t analyze it, knowing the law of the darkness (death) and sword logic(strongest survive), the vex were confused in their own way on what to do.
The vex wanted to follow their original programming of following the light and creating multiverses but if they ignored the darkness, they would be going against the light due to no longer being able to create new multiverses as they would soon cease to exist because of darkness’s law of death. However, in order to follow the light and continue to create multiverses, the vex would have to live another day, and to do so, the vex would have to start by bathing in darkness and following it. As such it is an easy thought as to how and why the vex fought against each other.
-It is possible the light was vexed because the darkness used the sword logic (simple strongest survive) and produced a similar aspect in multi dimensional birth of the bomb logic. Such as crota and orix and how they each held their real body but also their dimension that held their soul.
-As for Orix, I believe we will end up in a story of the hive reviving him and then we learn that he was revived through the darkness to where he has gone beyond that of a taken and is in fact even more powerful having gone past the death song with knowledge of sword logic. Then taking the nightmares from the moon, Orix combines them to summon and revive crota from the grave but as a similar shadow to Orix. Then maybe we have to dive into the pits, defeat the new hive champion, defeat crota’s daughter and obtaining the death song tomb, and possibly lock both crota and Orix in a combined soul relm similar to a reversed version of what Orix did with the dreadnaught. Then the raid will be entering the combined soul relm. Or something similar.
"Oryx"
This was great. Sign me up for another. This is what kinda podcast I love to listen to and be a part of
“But it was me, Oryx!”
Kono oryx da
ZA THRONE WARUDO
Oryx: oh.....you dare approach me
Guardian: i carn’t beat the sword logic without getting close (sry if i said that wrong, i need to watch jojo)
DragonKnight90001 it’s more like oryx: oh ho instead of running away you’re aproaching me?
Lukas Björn Endermann cheers
Some story writer at Bungie: "guys, Byf and Professor Broman are on to us..."
*other bungie writers: welp we tried but we are dealing with powers we can't comprehend
Hearing this in Season of the Deep, Byf talking about Oryx is wildly accurate
Imagine flowers in the game that don’t die when they’re supposed to, and how that would affect the rest of the pattern in the flower game.
I feel like the darkness is trying to reverse the effects of our paracausal effects on the game. The light’s “new rule” was to revive the flower that it killed one day, which changed the pattern from that point all the way out. the salvation that it talks about is actually to return all of our stuff back to being dead.
It probably also sees everything the light directly interacted with as a smear on the “perfection” so it’s sowing all this chaos to get us to destroy ourselves, since I don’t think the darkness can directly remove our light (opposite polarity of power or something)
I'm telling you, he turns himself into a gun. He's called "touch of malice" funniest shit I've ever seen.
"Maybe Guardians should make their own fate." I fell over laughing
I love that this comment is at the top and look at what we're doing now 😆
@@MarcosLopez-en6ul qoq oqo
I love listening to lore while I go to sleep
Maybe the darkness zones are points where the enemies are so strong that no other Guardian from other dimensions have succeeded and we are the only ones who can succeed in this timeline or dimension
I thought they were more of an over-saturation of Darkness, so much that it stifles the ghosts' connection to the Traveler, and therefore limits respawning. The ghosts must aid each other to revive a guardian, because they don't have enough 'bandwidth' to do it on their own.
thdo e to Oh what n🙊 o Oh @@Xenronnify d ccc x ccc do dc want c oh c ok 👌 just called saw ome think 💭 can. I’m gI c ccc ccc o👀 ing. I’m me aIcuuvuu cu I c cccco c cccc. Ok nd
Wish I could be around for the live version. So many times I wanted to point out a lore book here and there. The Revelations one from the Moon lost sectors, is great - I couldn't help but read every one I got. As the story reveals what happened. Hope you do a video on that or at least how a number of lore books in Shadowkeep are timed around the collapse.
When I think of the vex my mind often leads me to thinking back to the non hostile vex on Io that are around a spherical structure....
Me too I love hanging around that area
"evolving world" seems to only apply to the lore not the gameplay.
Tell that to mars, Io, Nessus and titan.
This didnt age well
@@dresadreemur7784 maybe its better this way
Oryx: *does something cunning* I have achieved Savathun.
"Whether the Vex were the rule created by the Traveler"
I called this back in week 1 of Unveiling, and I am both terrified and intrigued by the possibility of that being right.
DISCLAIMER: Still spinfoil at the moment, want to reinforce that
Vex milk looks like travelors light and who tf keeps making them?
I wanna go one further and say that the vex were the original or at least previous versions of the traveler that the light created as it’s new rule. The way they operate is strikingly similar
@@CaptainPilipinas your 100% sure about that ?
I'd love to see another edition of this but before beyond light
I loved this! You two need to join up more often for lore talks. You guys are very complementary to each other
This was a lot of fun to listen to (I heard broman’s video first) and I learned a lot! Played it in the background while I did some vex offensive.
Plz plz plz plz plz, make something like this again byf, it was aweeeeesome to see you discuss lore with someone else, this could even become a monthly or seasonal podcast, you we’ll listen.
The vex weren't the rule created by the Gardener, they were the victorious pattern from previous universes.
I would definitely love more long-form content like this.
The "realm" that the ghost grimoire talks about sounds like mercury's infinite forest. A realm beyond the border that they can't see, where their names lie.
Broman sounds like that cliche action hero mentor and I LOVE IT
Y'all should make a podcast. This was awesome!
ProBro knows more about the lore then I expected, great video, love these more casual discussions.
1:59:50 In your opinion, how would the cutscene we saw at the start of this week with Eris at the statue effect your opinion.
The blue star and the topological structure being in the grimoire card @1:21:50 reminds me of the description of 2082 Volantis from the Clovis Bray journal found with Collector's Beyond Light
Can we uncensor Broman? I want "Sweary Lore Hours with Byf and Broman."
This is fantastic! Please do more deep dive discussions like this Byf!
the light is trying to make the universe have never ending life and the darkness believes the final shape is death for all things and its inevitable
I was just reading through the books of sorrow and even back then the leviathan implies that darkness is cleaning up the lights messes
I started the Curse of Osiris campaign when this started and finished it when when it ended.
Oh boy am I glad that I clicked this video.
Also a lot of foreshadowing in this!
no but seriously I do think "vexed" in the Flower Game is at least hinting at the vex
like think about it
the Vex are all about patterns, right? about spreading the pattern everywhere, etc. and they're like a kind of time-traveling gray goo, converting stuff into mroe of themselves. meanwhile, how is the pattern the Gardener doesn't like described? "they have no purpose except to subsume all other purposes." seems similar, right?
then again, there's also the fact that apparently the world didn't really exist at that point, so idk
took me nearly 2 hrs 1:48:53 to realize they were playing AND speaking at the same time, i thought it was just audio looped over gameplay lmao, man to be able to go into deep thought at the same time as playing. Kudos.
It strikes me that 'bomb logic' could also be considered/called 'bond' logic.
The Gardener was VEXed by one pattern always winning. The pattern that had won all previous universes escaped into ours and first formed silica shells (Radiolaria). The Vex were the previous final pattern, yall.
The radiolaria seems too much like light juice and the traveller seems too much like a vex god
About the flower game: I read it as a system functioning in such a way where the Darkness always won. It's like Nim; second player always wins, simply by the mathematical rules of the game. Ergo, of course the Gardener would want to change it, and of course the Winnower would want it to stay the same. Since it has been altered, however, now it has the "excuse" to get violently competitive.
"come on Ghost, we will fight her music with OUR music!"
Came up with this theory in the first part of the video, you guys talk about the death song being created from a song of light and how they are gardeners, similar to how the traveler is referenced as a gardener, my theory is that the vex were created by the traveler long ago. They are machine (or technically just radiolaria, but we see them as machines) and their goal is to find the final shape of the universe, as they were corrupted by the darkness, or possibly they have existed long enough for the laws of the universe to simply revert them back to a form where they obey the laws of the final, simple shape of the universe (such as the flower in "the flower game" which makes the vex possibly the flower itself in the metaphor).
As I write this I'm less and less sure whether the vex are part of the light or the darkness as a lot of what I have written (and deleted) very directly contradicts itself, but I am becoming more and more certain that the vex are a more central part of the universe than any of the other races we've seen so far. They may not be as powerful or as ancient as the darkness and light itself, but are perhaps a combination of the two, or simply the most neutral form of existence in the universe, embodying the basic laws of the universe itself. Actually that one makes more sense now that I think about it, as the gardener earlier chose to create new laws for the multiverse, and the darkness disagreed and stated the simple final shape is the only way. The vex are the purest form of our universe, but the light and darkness exist beyond the universe, possibly even outside the multi-verse, and can attempt to alter the vex and mold them like clay into a form that suits them. But with darkness and light weaving the universe together, and therefore the vex, the vex is neither an instrument of light or dark, yet still contains very strong aspects of the light and dark.
I really wish I could expand on this theory more, as every single piece of lore I can think of that mentions something related to the origin of the light and dark, and the relationship between them and the vex, seems to support this more and more. I'm probably going to edit this and come back as holy shit I'm realizing I could make a whole fucking book of just drawing connections and speculating now that I think of this more. Byf, if you see this, love you dad, but also please consider this for a video cuz I think this would not only make great content but I would also just like some outside input on this.
when you mentioned ''the great game'' made me think of the game that the Chaos Gods are ''playing'' in the warp in 40k/AoS...
if one of them 'wins' every thing dies and one of them knows that fact, but also knows that they will die when one of them wins...
15:04 honestly why is the best stuff in the lore, if this was a mission it'd be my favorite
Oh man... This is pretty relevant right now....
Very it's as if they are prophets
I love the fact that Broman is not just play the gmae and grind...he knows the lore and talking with Byf for deep lore and speculate is glorious. I adore thses kinds of videos !!!
I planned to only watch like an hour and I watched the whole thing and I have one thing to say to you Byf...
*LET ME BE EDGY WITH MY DARK MODE TWITTER*
I’m with Byf, I’d side with the light. It never steered me wrong yet !
This couldve been 3 hrs longer and i'd watch it.
Enjoyed this. Would be cool to see more convos like this monthly. I wonder if Bungie has fleshed out what they wanna do and where they wanna go with Destiny. So much potential with this story.
It would be crazy if we lose the other two of the heads of the vanguard and we end up with Osiris, aldrin, and Saint 14 as the new heads.
I’d much prefer Ana bray over uldren but the vanguard dare is a thing
It can’t be saint-14, as he will always die in the infinite forest. He will definitely turn up in the future, and come to the tower, but he will end up dying in the infinite forest.
FaZe Kosova the objective of the next xpac is to fix the timeline so who knows what will come of that as a side effect.
@@crayoneater4247 perhaps him dying is part of the fucked up timeline we have to fix. just how you being a negative nancy might also have to be fixed next season...jk👍
Saint’s... dead dude. I’m sorry but he was probably a hero in life, given his name. And in death he was chosen by the light to fight again. He was beloved by all who knew him. Even his enemies, grew to respect him. So much so that the vex, cold and unfeeling, built a great shrine in his honor, symbolic of his conquest. Saint did everything he did out of love. For mankind. For the city. For his friends. He is a martyr. An example for all guardians and the standard by which any Titan would be honored to even compare themselves. Why would you want to deny this legend his rest?
He had a perfect ending. That’s more than any of us can hope for. It’s more than most of us will get.
Gotta question about the part where you guys discuss how Ghosts ressurect.
If Broman's interpretation on how ghost ressurect ghost is true, the bring a different guardian from a different timeline, a guardian that would likely to win the battle, then that would mean there's a plothole. In the Zavala trailer, if that is to be interpreted as all accurate, we see that Zavala's ghost does indeed just revive a dead awoken body. I just believe Ghost just simply defibrillate(is that a word?) back to life using Light.
New season title: Ikora Rey and the really bad, terrible, awful idea.
Season of the Worthy 2: Electric Boogaloo featuring Ikora Rey from the Playerbase May Cry Franchise
zwdank
my
De a
Do trdttttt ty
Rttdtdttdddtdtdtttd
*sees nearly 3 hour Byf video*
*boots up destiny 2*
“Hell yea”
I always knew the Traveler was the bomb, why else would everyone want to build a civilization under it.😎
Forever bringing out the best videos on these kind of topics. Always
This video is pure magic🔥 and I’m only half way through it, will edit later with final thoughts .
Edit** holy sh*t, this was amazing! We need more collabs!
When speaking of the flower game, I can't help but thing of the Angle problem and how that kinda reflects the travel getting chased by the pyramid ships, a game played on the same board, with added rules
When in doubt, lore to sleep
Somtimes i listen to byf when i cant sleep, and boy oh boy is it soothing
I'm so happy it's not just me
Then your dream plays out the storys
Count worm gods
Bromans chat is always chaotic 😂 🤣 love it
Tried to look on imdb for the huge revelation but couldnt find anything. Can someone tell me what that was?
Saint-14 is in the cast with a voice actor
@@thehungarywaffleinc.7775 Oh nice! There were only 3 cast members for shadpwkeep listed, Shaxx, Eris and some other actress i didnt recognize, so I assumed it was Savathùn. Glad we'll be able to hear from saint though.
I don't get the "great implications" but still, WTF
I think something that /could/ be a connection, even if tenuous, is that the feathers we collect for the subclasses in forsaken are a blue-ish white. Imo it's very possible there might be a connection between that and the tree of silver wings, which might give us some insight into what that tree does.
So what im getting is, touch of malice possibly survived the red war?!
It's the remnants of the First Navigator, the Heir of the Osmium Court, the Past and Future Taken King. You think that a filthy Cabal bombardment is going to destroy that?
I believe it was stated somewhere that Eris retrieved it sometime before the Red War. So if that is in fact the case, then Touch of Malice is currently in Eris's possession
@@GhostRydr1172 well yeah the gun frame would be destroyed now as for the heart of malice then no a cabal incursion would not even scratch it.
Kyle Edwards the gun frame is very possibly indestructible. It’s made of HADIUM, aka that stuff that The Dreadnaught is made of that the Queen’s harbingers couldn’t scratch. Even if it isn’t currently in Eris’s Possesion (which it probably is), no cabal bombardment will shatter it.
@@spaced0rit070 fair enough
Love the dialog. This video carried me thru work that half of day. Def following your cohost going forward n hope he has content like this too! Hope yu guys figure it out. 3hrs a season is good
Sava'Thun is literally Aldia from Dark Souls 2
just savathun
Savathûn's so cunning, she messes things up in TWO games
You know what’s scarier than a nightmare of Oryx? A nightmare of Cayde.
We took oryx's heart and made a gun. MURICA!!!!
How I've interpreted the unveiling so far if that the gardener and winnower exist in the space between universes, the void( can't remember what piece of lore said it but there was lore from d1 which stated the traveller came from the void) , and these flowers that they care for are the universes in the multiverse, the multiverse being the the overall flower game. It mentions how the gardener became "vexed" (a very specific choice of word there), and when the gardener is expressing it's dissatisfaction with how the game was it refers to "pests that always get in the way and destroy anything interesting that manifests" ie the pattern destroys anything that is not it, which is the vex, its literally what the vex do. This seems to me as though the vex are the winners of the previous universes cared for before the gardeners dissatisfaction, they were the final shape, the winners, what nature always resulted in. These universes were kept in line with the rules which was how the universes should be naturally without the light and dark consciously involving themselves, they do their natural part and then simply observe what happens unlike the universe we currently play in. The gardener decided to make its new rule to "reward those who don't conform" which means it will bless those that it believes to be worthy, this is exactly what the traveller does (whether you believe the traveller is the light or an agent of the light this still makes sense), so the universe we play in, being the one where the gardener broke the rules, explains why the vex (which came to our universe through the void when crota tore a wound in reality, and if you were to travel from one universe to another you'd have to travel on the road that is between these destinations, the void) struggle greatly when it comes to paracausal element like the light and dark, they don't understand it because they have never seen anything like it before because they weren't the rules of their universes which were kept in line with the rules (no light or dark, just the natural process), and as the winnower said about what the gardener referred to as pests, they have no desire but the desire to continue to exist and make existence suit them, so of course they came to play their hand in this game, they want to continue to exist. They are the previous champions of the game but are now struggling in this unfamiliar "ring" they are now fighting in as it's a different setting with new rules, they're not fighting on their "home turf" and so are at a disadvantage. And when it comes to the winnower breaking it's own rules and seeming hypocritical for critiscing the gardener for breaking the rules, I think it is only trying to get things back in line with the rules, it's destroying all the "cysts" that the gardener is creating with it's own champions like Oryx, that would be the only way to get the game back in line, if one players has gone rogue and do their own thing, you'd have to start playing by their rules to convert it back to how it was originally, without it's own champions to hunt down and eradicate anything to do with the light it would likely find it incredibly difficult to destroy all of the "cysts" the gardener is creating. Anyway that's just how I've understood what has been explained in the lore book so far, let me know your thoughts on that theory dude. Btw byf if you remember a dude tbagging at you in the dreaming city at the strand where Petra was a few months ago, that was me i just wanted to say hi 😊, saw your name pop up and was like no way it's byf! 😂
THREE. OURS. OF. LORE.
*yyyyYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS*
Very impressed with how much prof broman was able to contribute. Smart professor 👨🏫
A I A T
Dude!! B5!!!!! You are the man. Every time I get into the lore of this game it takes me back to B5.