If something bad happens to you, it is evidence that god exists. Because you asked to be humbled. If you want evidence that God lives. Pray to him and ask him to make it rain. Eventually it will rain and prove god lives
I realized what I mean when I say, "I know the church is true," on my mission. When I say it I am saying this is the same church that Christ established on the earth restored to the earth again.
I think a beautiful aspect of LDS epistemology is that God is literally revealing Himself to you personally and He will reveal Himself to us in a way that is enough for us on an individual level. Some may have dreams, so may just feel peace, some may have words spoken to them, some may have burning bosoms or visceral experiences, etc. For me, God knew that I could never deny feeling and hearing the Spirit testify to me that the Book of Mormon is true - I cannot doubt it, it is written in my soul.
@@thebenplatt that’s a good point, and I think it’s worth more discussion. From a cultural perspective, this is probably less discussed because most assume the Bible is already true whereas the BoM the new guy on the block that needs testing. Additionally, the BoM is the keystone of the religion, in that if the BoM is true, we can also assume the Bible to be true, because the BoM testifies of the veracity of the Bible. And personally, I’ve had spiritual witnesses that all of the standard works, especially the Bible, are true. Hope that helps.
God knows me too. I probably made Him worry due to how long in my youth I waited to pray about it. I am SO THANKFUL for the members of my ward who sacrificed their time, their efforts, their own ease of life, to try to be there for all of the youth of my ward. Their testimonies (evidenced by their efforts) helped a lot of us. I was almost 20, I cannot ignore what I was able to feel as it was like NOTHING I had ever experienced before. My doubts and worries and even dying faith in a God even existing, have always been overcome because of that spiritual experience I had as a 20 year old.
Thanks for sharing your testimony really quick. Just typing one sentence can bring the testifying witness of the Spirit to even just one rando (me) on the internet as he or she scrolls through some comments on a UA-cam vid. Thanks for following the prompting to share your few and simple words
As an investigator of the Restored Gospel (47 yrs ago) I recognized James 1:5-6 and coupled it with 1 Thessalonians 5: 21 Prove (test) all things, hold fast that which is true. Sounds like the scientific method doesn’t it? 😮
I taught my course 10 sunday school kids this same thing today. The come follow me lesson this week was James 1:5 This scripture is a perfect example of this principle in action. It explains that you should trust your own experience and go to the source for enlightenment and intelligence. This action of seeking creates your spiritual inertia, God will create the fruit.
Guys, this is one of the best. Pure knowledge proceeded forth! I just loved this one. I haven't wanted to part of a group of guys or a clique in a long time until y'all came along. I love the logical approach along with the spiritual. I've been talking to machines (computer programmer) for over thirty years so speaking in logical terms is important to me. For a long time I've seen the restored gospel as far more logical than anything else, but that understand took a while to fully process. I most certainly wasn't there when I was on my mission because it would have helped. Thanks again! I love the five witness concept!
When I say the church is true I literally mean that I know for a fact that it is the true church on the earth. And I then say I know because God has told me it is true.
Before I was a member of the Church, i had a Bible once (I think an NIV) that said in the study notes that the “for” in Acts2:38 could mean “because of.” The author of that note was Dr Charles Ryrie, who certainly knows Greek, and knows that statement is incorrect (because of the case of the word that the “for” modifies.). But his denomination forced his interpretation in the wrong direction.
Hey Leo, I enjoyed your Never Ending Story reference in one of their other episodes. You really do bring a different life experience and personality to the program. I made my own response to this video. Do you feel like taking a look at the other side of this claim? If so check out my latest post.
I've always turned to Moroni 7: 11-18 (proper way to discern truth& error) to verify if something is true or not. In these verses, it mentions how we can have a PERFECT KNOWLEDGE TO THE TRUTH. There are not many if any times the scriptures teach, we can be perfect in something. But here, as we apply the formula in these scriptures, we can have perfect knowledge. Personal revelation wasn't addressed in this video, or at least I didn't think it was emphasized enough. Anyway, I love Moroni 7: 11-18. It makes it so simple, that even a child can understand and apply.
This episode was epic! Very few have come close to the value this one has. Thank you for standing at the forefront of the discussion and crying the truth from the rooftops!
I know, because I have read the book of Mormon, prayed sincerely to ask if it's true, received an undescribable testimony from the holy Spirit. Since I know that the Book of Mormon is true, Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. If he is the prophet, then the church of Jesus Christ is true.
The Holy Ghost has pure knowledge and has testified this to me, that I will always treasure. Yes the restoration is true. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true and as a pure knowledge as that I live. That is one of of the Holy Ghosts mission. Carol
I hate the parroted phrase that "I know the Church is true" especially when it is said by youth. It generally is said with no emotion or conviction. Elder McConkie gave a list of 3-4 things you should always say in your testimony. They are 1- You know that God lives (is real) 2- You know or accept that Jesus is the Christ and died for our sins 3- You believe or know that Josoph Smith was a prophet of God 4- You know the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I understand that these other statements also use the same "I know or I believe" words but the specific reference of belief makes them sound so much more sincere.
Elder Corbridge gave a great talk at a BYU devotional back in 2019. He discusses the 4 methods to know truth, they include scientific, analytical, academic, and divine methods....It's a great talk....highly recommend!
We LDS need to quit explaining ourselves trying to get to a more clearer point of how we know how things are true and whatnot... We just need to testify honestly and let the Holy Ghost do the rest. Many members sleep on the power of fasting unto the Lord. If we fast for 24 hours on a fast Sunday and dedicated unto the Lord and His gospel, we will get that Elder Bednar and Elder Holland power. If you're not good at fasting, get good at it and start teaching. You'll thank God that he inspired me to write this comment ✊
I know the church and the Gospel are true. I've never had to be convinced,it just burns in me EVEN when I was away from the church 30yrs. So glad your program is reaching so many. Think how many would "Know" if only to be taught 1x!!!
This is you guys at your best: scary smart and informed, logical, fun, entertaining, and intellectually diverse to a point that nobody watching this can simply dismiss you or The Church. Thanks for an amazing and faith promoting episode!
I dismiss it. This is just motivated reasoning because of brainwashing by the church since birth. The life of joseph smith is all I need to dismiss thie truth claims of the church. How can you continue to believe this?
This is AWESOME! I had no idea that all people (members of the LDS Church, other Christians, and all other people) didn’t already know this stuff. Mind blown.
One thing I notice from the sola scriptura folks is the assumption that we have the burden to prove that the Book of Mormon is true. That's false. The person that demands that God kindly keep His mouth shut has the burden of proof, not the person that listens for His voice with the intent to obey. And regarding academics and some seminaries: “We have met here today clothed in the black robes of a false priesthood.” -- Hugh Nibley. 'nuf said.
@@Themanyfacesofego Those are separate claims. Sola scriptura is one claim. The truth of the Book of Mormon is a different claim. It's not one or the other, except in that sola scriptura demands that God stop talking in any way, including through the Book of Mormon.
This is the 3rd time I've listened to this episode. It's truly one of the best episodes. Just send every single Anti-Mormon, especially Evangelicals, to this episode. Super awesome!
Edit: This was a BRILLIANT conversation. Definitely your best. This explains why so many will be confused in the last days and will think the AC is actually Christ. Most Christians have put their faith in their pastors and not in Christ. They don't have the relationship with God. This whole conversation addresses so much of what is going on in our world and in churches. Kwaku's point about churches and God not having a gender and the current gender fight we are battling was nothing short of genius. Gimme more!!
I never say the "Church is True". I say the "Gospel is True" because I understand that any organization staffed with mortals is going to have problems.
The church is the kingdom of God on the earth that encompasses the Gospel of Christ. The saving ordnances is the gospel. You can’t have those without the church’s priesthood authority.
I am at a huge family reunion. I will do everything possible to get the whole family to watch this episode. This is surely your best work ever. I will also feature it on my story, which will soon be advertised on a billboard on southbound I-15 in American Fork. Every living person would benefit from this episode! You are the good and faithful servants.
I love that Jacob immediately used the example of the Matrix for judging whether something is real or not. It’s one of my favorite series of movies, and a big reason why is because of the philosophical questions like “how do you know what is real” being applied in such a significant way.
13:48. Cardon: "adopting the language of our oppressors" 30:23 Cardon: "their rhetoric, their vocabulary, their institutions and their methodologies" Am reminded of The Silver Chair and the heroic speech of Puddleglum also by CS Lewis.
I used to consider myself an atheist, now I’m an agnostic, it’s true that atheists/secularists tend to discard what most other people would consider evidence such as personal human experience. Does the spiritual realm exist? Probably 🤔 I’m not sure what it is.
I love these sorts of episodes (especially with Jacob), but i wish we could somehow get the list. Maybe popping up on the screen as they come up, or with chapters, or in the description. This and the Prodestant Paradox discussion are so good, but hard to navigate if you want to find things later on since the comments don't always seem exactly attached to the idea being discussed all throughout. One, or all, of those changes would really help me be able to find useful things again!
This was amazing! All of you nailed it! I prayed for all four of you because l see as apostles of the Lord to the world. You are so bright and spiritually powerful.
This episode: Entertainment value: 7/10 Educational value: 2/10 Jacob could probably have laid out a good pragmatic argument… maybe. It’s a bit disturbing that he affirmed some of the tangents. Tackling this issue is one of the most important tasks if you want to make a case for the church - but you have to separate empiric truth from pragmatic truth and let go of the claims of the former and lean into the latter. This has downstream implications when it comes to “following the prophet” depending on what the prophet is asking of you (I.e. Nov 2015 policy on children of married gay couples) but letting go of empiric truth give you permission to do that. Looking forward to y’all refining and improving on your arguments here.
Hey Jon, I agree so I put together a review of the entire show. I used some of your cards from isitculty as visual aids it was a fun project and a really good creative way to blow off some steam. Nice seeing ya in the comments take it easy Colonel Totas.
For me, I know the Church is true means, I know the teachings of the Church are true because of my personal witness from the Holy Ghost. If the teachings of the Church are true, therefore the Church is Christ's true Church in this last dispensation of time.
You guys are doing a lot of conflating here. The first half of the video you created a strawman by showing that self-evident evidence is the fundamental one for self-existence and the existence of the mind, mathematics, logic etc, the spiritual and therefore God. The question at hand though is the truth of the legitimacy of the LDS church and its claims, not just the general claims of Christianity or most religions. You then boiled it down to " our church literally just says, come here and have an experience with God, come and get to know Him and you will know for yourself, that its true". Are you serious? Just attending an LDS church service or 2 weeks of services, equates to an experience with God and a certainty that He endorses the LDS church? Why then are long time LDS members having major faith challenges with shelves that are teetering on the brink of crashing and many continue to leave the beloved true church? I guess that can only be because they are sinful apostates and knowingly reject a relationship with God? Is that not what all cults say if you leave? At least a regular Christian church has the general view that the issue may simply be, a non-essential disagreement or a different taste in the style of worship. Just face it , one does not need a supernatural witness or lack of warm fuzzies to know that a church whose major claims about its prophet have been draped in lies for decades and whose main piece of faith literature has all the evidence of human invention and a major lack of corroboration from geographical and historical sources. How can you expect to be taken seriously when you have no consensus on where the main events of the BOM took place in the Americas?
This is my fav episode so far! I just got back from a girls trip w two evangelical friends and we had some awesome discussions about similar topics. One area I need to explore further that I was having a hard time articulating in our discussions was why Christ isn’t “enough.” In talking about covenants/temple work/ etc. my friends were adamant that none of that is needed. Honestly I didn’t have a good answer - I talked about being bound to Christ through covenants but they feel they are already bound to him because they’ve accepted him. Anyway… this episode was beautiful in so many ways. I think you’re getting better at not talking over one another. Haha. Thx for a great one. ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Parable of the talents yo str8 from the masters lips. U have to show them what u have learned by your works. The mysteries u know that they only know in parable u have to teach them by the spirit of truth. The Holy Ghost will teach them actually it won't be you. Matt 13:10-16 this is Jesus saying Jesus is not enough. That their are levels and not everyone is on the same level. John 16: 12-15 this shows how Jesus is not enough. You have to show them eternal truths. To this end were you born for this cause came you into the world to bear witness to the truth. Those who are of the truth hear his voice. Think about the fruits of the spirit and approach your friends with those fruits you partake together. Don't go about proving to them, they are blind they will see nothing. It will avail u nothing u have to open their eyes. Find what they don't know on the level they are at and raise them up. In the end they have to understand the one true God John 17. Jesus in the end is not enough he is essential to learning to take your first steps like Peter stepping out into the storm tossed sea. Parables use them to reveal the mysteries and their devine potential/birthright. Christ teachings all point to losing your life to find it the greatest work ever wrought was the atonement. Jesus is not enough he is essential but only the rock on which you build. Find scriptures that show the promises of God to those who build on the rock of the redeemer. Stay in the bible till they start to have aha moments and then dive into the restoration. Line upon line. Milk before meat. We eat the bread of life and then partake of the living water. A work the apostles observed after the death of christ. Or just invite them over to your house to talk shop with the missionaries that's the best way to go. Faith vs works is a hard one because the bible is mad contradictory in that department. Show them your good works that they may glorify your father which is in heaven show them what they are missing. Christianity wants to side step accountability show them that Jesus held men accountable he asked that they bring forth fruit meet for repentance and to be a light to the world. Ask them what they think the jews did in the temple? Ask them what they think moses did? If god does not change why would these things change for us. They will say jesus. Then ask them why the apostles were at the temple daily? Ask then why do we get baptized? Baptism is a work an ordinace of heaven (somewhere in job 38 it talks about the ordinaces of heaven) you could say if Jesus was enough then why does the scriptures say that he will send the spirit of Elijah before the great and dreadful day. To turn the hearts od the children to the fathers and the hearts of the children to the father if not he would smite the earth with a curse. It appears jesus is not enough. if they believe baptism comes from faith alone then ur pretty much screwed. Continue to show them ur good works and pray that he will soften their hearts. Congratulations on becoming a Mormon. This life will begin to make a ton of sense for u now. (If in fact your a recent convert if not my bad)
Review the Sacrament Prayer....that should be enough...every week?? (Secret Handshakes, Passwords and Which Shoulder your Robe is on shouldnt control your access to Heaven or God...and really sounds human in origin.)
@@krismurphy7711 sacred temple ordinances don't control access into gods presence? Baptism by the proper authority of the priesthood does. Also, the temple endowment pertains to exaltation, not salvation or inheriting the celestial kingdom which is possible for those who have been baptized as explained. Also, do some more studying about the covenant relationship Christ has with his disciples, sacred embraces of Israelite and Egyptian origin as well as the apocryphal episodes describing Christ's prayer circle, his hand clasps with disciples and how these relate to signs, tokens, handclasps and his crucifixion.
This is one of the best discussion I’ve heard from you brethren. It’s so packed with stuff to digest, think about, and learn, I need to watch it several times and take notes. Great job guys.
I've been jumping around through your episodes for a few weeks, watching different ones, and this one is my absolute favorite now. I can't even describe how important it is for everyone to understand this. Thank you so much for this discussion, and for explaining these 5 ways to ̶k̶n̶o̶w̶ ̶ be confident of the truth of something. 🙏
The difference between faith and sure knowledge is when my wife points to our children and says “these are my children.” She speaks with sure knowledge. I speak with faith.!!
Since reading Meditations on First Philosophy by Rene Descartes I've had more confidence in what I know from the holy ghost over any other knowledge. The role of the Holy Ghost is to reveal truth directly - totally separate from our flawed perception and logic. That's his role. Any other way to know anything is flawed. I want to chat about this over a campfire.
You guys should review Street Epistemology with Anthony Magnabosco. He talks about some of these issues and he interviews missionaries from time to time.
I was watching the witnesses last night again, and at the end the statement is made by David witmer that we need to read the book of Mormon for the evidence. I have come to the conclusion that knowing the Bible, and how it is portrayed as truth because of all the archaeological evidence, makes most people lazy about reading it. So they that accept the Bible, except that most of time because of its popularity within their circles, whether it's true or not. The Book of Mormon requires the investigator to actually read the book, even though that it has evidence showing its historical concepts, but is not laid out with towns that are readily available for us to go to and explore. I see this as a necessity, because our our attempt of reading the book of Mormon is to discover Jesus Christ, and you cannot discover Jesus Christ without discovering the people that have had some very unique experiences throughout history.
it is the opposite of the scientific method. You start out with a belief something is true and ask God to confirm that. You are not starting from an independent perspective and drawing conclusions based on testable hypotheses and the evidence generated.
20:00 - I think I’ve misunderstood you - is this an argument against the old earth perspective? Are you making the case for a young earth and then claiming it’s because of “Shame based” secular academics that people believe the earth is way older than 7000 years?
What I am saying is that I think both “young earth creationists” and “old earth” enthusiasts have deep flaws in their views. Young earth folks cling to the Bible saying “it was made in 7 days!… and you don’t have faith if you question me!” This is untenable because even if you believe it was made in 7 days as the Bible says, the metric of a DAY (24 hours) depends upon the heliocentric and Gregorian interpretation of time dependent upon a SUN, that, according to the Bible wasn’t even created until the end of day 2…. Therefore, dear faithful young-earthers, what metric for day are you using in a galaxy with no sun? Don’t limit God like that… it’s not faithful, it’s a legalistic approach to the gospel that condemned the Sadducees. On the other hand…. Old earthers and “Science” TM nowadays is EVEN WORSE because they’re just as dogmatic, if not more, but they don’t recognize it, claim not to be, and have even more faith-based arguments, holes in their theories, and mythology in their perspective but the whole time they arrogantly claim intellectual superiority. Planetary Red Shift, proven aspects of Relativity, and honest theoretical physicists can reasonably surmise the earth is expanding in a way that would support a Big Bang TM concept, but they cannot explain the small force, they cannot prove basics like “black holes” (despite recent leaps in CERN data from 2018) and where life comes from that “seeded” “Evolution” TM. Also, Science Inc. has been corrupted by market influences worse than religion in the 7th-14th century ever dreamed of. James Lindsay completed discredited Science Inc. (what all the ‘rational’ and ‘aetheist’ folks depend on to ‘prove’ their opinions). All intellectually honest and observant thinkers in the know nowadays concede this, Brett Weinstein, Sam Harris, Tyson, et. al. have recognized, conceded, and lamented the market influence of “grant-based” and corporate-funded “science” that requires “science” proving “scientifically” that cigarettes don’t cause cancer, pesticides aren’t in the drinking water, and all the preservatives and sweeteners we are consuming aren’t killing us. Science, honestly, is a bigger joke than religion… by far. And the anti-religionists that use it to promote evolution over creationism knew the only way they can override the overwhelming self-evidence of God and the grandeur of His creation to make intellectual room for Evolution was by extending the timeline of this weaker dogma to operate over Billions and Billions and Billions of years. Honestly, they sound like the fat kid in the Sandlot talking how big the Beast is and his power “for-ev-er”. Both are silly.
@@WARDRADIOYou guys should try to get Tarik D LaCour and Ben Spackman on your show. They'd have some opposing views that I think would be beneficial to discuss.
I watched the whole thing, would you share my review that I posted on my channel as well? I think it shows another side to this claim that alot of members miss.
@@TdaPIANO I sat through OVER 2 HOURS to give you a chance. My review is: 1) Incredibly boring 2) Berdyaev and Jaspers talking points 3) You need a new host. Even the villain needs to be a person viewers care about (Ex: Felonious Gru). Kind of reminded me of High School “Intro to Philo”. I file your show next to Honey Boo Boo and Gigli. Sorry, man. Don’t give up- Script these out and use teleprompter.
@@BlueHalfVision Sounds like your looking for entertainment more than substance. GRU from despicable me? I'm honored that I gave you that impression. Even bad guys get right from time to time. Thanks and take care.
@@TdaPIANO I like substance. But in this format, it also has to be worth someone's time. It seemed like a 20-minute read stretched out. And, yes, Despicable Me as example that every character's lines need to be compelling. Don't be too hard on yourself. Hang in there. I think my suggestions will help.
I have taken undergrad and graduate level philosophy courses on Epistemology. I have always subcribed to the theory that all begins with the Spirit (intuition) and other ways of knowing can help increase understanding of and conviction to that which the Spirit reveals. I enjoyed your discussion. Thank you for sharing your perspectives in a lively discussion.
The biggest thing missing from the conversation is people who believe conflicting self-evident ideas. If A believes X is self evident and B believes Y is self evident, and X and Y cannot both be true, then you have an issue. How do you solve this appeal? I think truth is most usefully defined as that which conforms to reality. So something that does not conform to reality and is not true (like belief in reincarnation based on good works) can still provide a moral good like social order. Moral truth is not a good indicator of actual reality.
Cardon @ 41:53 is that why it also says in the scriptures that in the last of days Men’s hearts will fail them? And that even the elect among us will be fooled? … That’s deep brother!!
I was kinda excited about this one, but it fell short for me. Studying epistemology threw a pretty big wrench in my relationship with the church. I was looking forward to some strong arguments, but I didn't hear any. This discussion might feel helpful to someone who knows someone who has mentioned epistemology as a reason for a faith crisis, but it doesn't actually dive into it with substance.
I agree with using method to disprove the atheist argument. Athiest: you can't prove God is real. Me: of course I can. Atheist: how? Me: how do you know that DNA is real? Atheist: because scientists have done studies that show that DNA is real. Me: So you have faith in scientists. Well, prophets apostles and others have witnessed the power of God, and I have faith in prophets. Atheists: yes, but scientific studies are repeatable. Me: So are religious. Study the scriptures and ask God if those teachings are true, and he will give you a personal witness. It's the scientific method.
Many people ask god and don’t receive anything, and even if they believe they do, many people in many conflicting religions experience the same, they can’t all be true, and it’s not scientific because it’s not observable or empirical
You're just flattering yourselves saying the LDS church is true. The church is not God. God is true. People are not true and the church throughout history has always apostatized.
What's interesting is that the scriptures use the verb "conocer" to know things, but when we bear a testimony in Spanish, we use the verb "saber" to know that the Church is true. Maybe in the next fast and testimony meeting I'm going to say "Les conozco a Dios y a Jesucristo" instead of "Sé que Jesucristo existe" 🤔🙌
Hey guys!! I’m an evangelical sola____ I violently disagree with most of the LDS doctrine but LOVE listening to epistemological conversations like these. Christ or CHAOS -Frank
Wow, Jacob! You used the verses in 1 Corinthians that I have long used to defend the Church since joining 5 years ago. You are a miraculous midnight mormon to me, by my epistemology.
5 years in? Congrats I was born into it back in 1981. Since then I served my mission in southern France, served in the US Air Force studying many facets of communication. I currently enrolled in the theology and religion department at the University of San Francisco. I just did a review on this entire video. It's a very serious critique of some of the flaws in this video and LDS claim as a whole. I just posted it on my channel if you want an in depth review of the other side of the coin?
I really enjoy listening to your podcasts, but there is one VERY IMPORTANT issue that none of you seem to be addressing, including the likes of John Dehlin; and those who are trashing the beliefs and doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We believe first and foremost in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior Secondly, we believe that Joseph Smith, Jr., was called by the Savior to be his prophet, and why was he called? He was called to bring about the RESTORATION of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Those who are being encouraged to leave the Church and debunking its teachings, do so at their own peril. If The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is false, then there can be NO CHURCH OR RELIGION presently on the earth that can guarantee one's salvation because of the APOSTACY and abominable doctrines that were taught and took place from the end of the second century until the reformers began questioning the teachings of the universal church beginning in the 1200's which ultimately led to the Protestant Reformation Movement thus creating hundreds, if not thousands of different churches and denominations, all claiming to be Christians. Paul asked the question, "Is Christ divided?" These Christians see the 27 books that make up the New Testament as their unequitable authority to teach the gospel, but the Lord himself declared that they "teach the philosophies of men mingled with scripture." The New Testament has many missing parts, including lost scriptures, and the doctrines of Christ are incomplete, so if they are claiming The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is now a false church, then because of the fall of man we are all condemned despite the fact that Christ died to save mankind, and if this be the case, then there can be no other church or religion that is organized or sanctioned by the Lord to bring about the salvation of mankind, and we are all damned. Those who think otherwise are modern day strawmen and false prophets like unto Kohihor and Zeezrum in the Book of Mormon, and furthermore, those who advocate against the teachings of Joseph Smith, our modern day prophets, etc., are anti-Christs. You need to remind people about the dangers of listening to those who would lead people away with flattery and smooth sounding talk as though they are self-proclaimed experts on religious teachings. There was an apostasy that occurred by the end of the second century, and the reformation movement was necessary to reveal some of those false doctrines that were being taught, but those who believe in the teachings of these reformers do not understand the full picture. They became the forerunners to prepare the way for the restoration of the true gospel of Jesus Christ and his Church. Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. He was taught by the Savior himself, as well as many other angelic messengers. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints may have its problems, but they are not as serious as what others would have you believe or to enlighten you to reject the teachings of our church and follow the likes of John Dehlin. I would go so far as to prophesy that the day will come when Dehlin and others like him who subscribe to his teachings will realize the terrible mistakes they've made in sitting themselves up as a modern day prophets and anti-Christs leading people away from the Lord's true Church. And yes, as secularism takes root and society breaks down into tribes, those who believe in Christ will one day suffer even greater persecutions because they continue to believe in Christ, whether they are members of The Church of Jesus Christ or not, and they will be no different than those early martyred Christians and apostles who stood firm in the first and second centuries for their testimonies of Christ, only this time it will be because they also believe in the restoration which ought to be the bulwark of these discussions .
It sounds like you are getting away from the question of what Joseph Smith claimed. Either he saw God and translated the book of Mormon from ancient records from real people, as he claimed, or he didn’t.
15:43 the metaphor of the oceanic blossom: Let’s turn that around. Imagine the church said, “don’t go to the ocean, because it’s not there.” this is what our church says to members “don’t counsel with those who don’t believe.”
Bible Reading Vs. Revelations Furthermore, about 1832 Joseph Smith, Jr. began an account of the origin of the Mormon Church (the only one written in his own hand) that contradicts the official First Vision story he dictated some six years later. The account was never finished. (See the text in BYU Studies, Spring 1969, pp. 278ff.) In this version Joseph presents himself between the ages of 12 and 15 as being a committed and perceptive reader of the Bible. He claims that his study of the Scriptures led him to understand that all of the denominations were wrong. He wrote: “By searching the Scriptures I found that mankind did not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatized from the true and living faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the Gospel of Jesus Christ as recorded in the new testament.”
I saw this podcast and the title grabbed me as epistemology is one of my favorite topics. I thought the discussion was spot on at first then quickly deviated from being reasonable. You should listen to Jonathan Streeter's podcast "How to fix your faith crisis with this one weird trick". He pushes the idea of wood tools vs. steel tools as a means of epistemology. Steel tools, as he defines them, are useful in discerning between truth and error; wood tools are not very useful. In the case of knowing if the LDS church is true, look methods you are pushing here to see if any church could use the same method you are purporting. If a member of both the Jehovah Witnesses and LDS can use these methods to be able to say they know, then its a wood tool, unable to give you the best opportunity to discover actual truth. The UA-cam video "Spiritual Witnesses" shows people of many religions saying they know theirs is the true church, mostly based on the ideas you are suggesting here. I realize I can't know anything for certain, but I want to use steel tools to help me have the best probability of finding and incorporating true ideas into my life.
Minor disagreement... I believe we CAN know 100% that the Church is True, or really anything. I say that because I did it. When I first joined the Church, I joined because I saw from all the Evidence that is was good, the best, and the most correct, i.e. actually fitting the Bible that I would read in other religions and saw them not actually fitting the book. I saw the value of it at creating better human beings over anything else, so I joined. I then in my late teens early 20's became anti-mormon and anti-religion to a degree, due to my further learning and growing up in the modern perspective of things and studying anything and everything useful, I was big into Eastern Philosophy's and New Age btw during this time. I then decided to continue to learn, to put away my judgments and start fresh. I again eliminated anything else as potentially "true" and then compared anti-mormonism with LDS scholarship, saw that anti-mormonism did nothing but used a little truth to tell great lies. I then delved into the issues I had with the church, got again educated, that I was simply ignorant of the truths and facts related to them, and then literally one day the spirit hit me so hard, it literally felt like new brain cells were created, and I KNEW without question that the Church was literally true, not another man-made religion. I had gained so much evidence from ALL the Epistemological methodology's that made the question unquestionable. This is why most intellectuals in the world as studies have shown tend to LEAVE religion, while it's the complete opposite with LDS Intellectuals. They tend to remain IN the Church... and the reason for that is BECAUSE it's literally true. It CAN be scientifically demonstrated to be so. I was using the scientific method, aka the 5 Epistemological methods, intentionally since I was 6 years old, to understand human behavior, history, politics, religion, good and evil, etc.
I know this is Christ’s church because I know Christ would also treat gay people differently than straight people. I’m happiest following a prophet who doesn’t believe in equal rights. God bless you, straight brethren!
0. Knowing - 2:20 Agreed with Kwaku here. Nicely said. 4:25 “…except for the fact that you exist…” is included in that cloud of “rational certainty”. This is not a certainty, rational or otherwise. “I think therefore I am” is not complete without “I am, therefore I think.” There is a valence to what one knows. 1. Intuition - While an intuition can and may be true all it is is the powerful sense that something is true without knowing the reason behind why. This touches on No. 0 and No. 3 as well. Cardon - 15:40 I see what you’re going for here, but it’s too narrow. I spoke with sacred geometry and a dragon on dmt. I know some who have spoken with geometry, but none with a dragon. Many would probably tell me that this dragon isn’t real and doesn’t exist, but others have reported seeing a dragon flying by in their dmt experience. I invite you to come and see this, and in this case everyone will indeed tell us we’re trippin.’ We’ll know it’s “real” though. Additionally, could what you’re saying here not also be applied to the historical inquiry of evolution? 🤔 2. Sensory Data - I am therefore I sense. What if our brain was in our ass? How would our sensory input be presented and where would the “I” “you” feel seated? I think/sense therefore I am; I am therefore I think/sense are one and the same. Agreed on self-evidence. You don’t know what you don’t know until it is evident to you. 3. Reason is justification. The rest is authority. The only thing I’ll add is that faith is intertwined here. You were getting into this back at around 10:10 I think. 30:10 Secular Dementors 31:30 A, dare I say, Third Eye? 39:03 - Conhecer in Portuguese is used as “to meet” which is several different variations of “to know.” To meet in person, to meet at an understanding, etc. 40:35 - too bad everything is a waver 42:20 Agreed. I say it’s “citations all the way down” 4. Moral Outcome/Function/Fruits - Not sure this was discussed much, directly… or perhaps I had anything to add. 5. Authority is your own opinion and thus your own authority. What’s the reason for this? 47:15 - “You” and “Yours” is the fundamental property that I believe is misunderstood here, even from a deeply Mormon perspective. That which is acting upon “you” is not “you” but I would grant that it is “yours.” Your hand is yours but you are not your hand. Your hand is a make-up of intelligences held within a different sphere of creation and is eternally progressing in conjunction with you; in union, yolked upon one another. How else does Christ heal the lepers and the blind and move mountains and water and change staffs into serpents and healthy flesh into rotten flesh and back again, et al? He understands the fundamental difference between you and yours, order and chaos. He moves mountains with his, in the end, self-reasoned and self-authorized priesthood knowledge and understanding of the order of gods things; gods straw dogs; “Conhecendo de coisas de Deus.” After-all, did God not say he hath created all things both to act and to be acted upon? Additionally, I feel like the concept you discuss here contradicts ideas of intuition. “You” have been given a mind and heart, and you’re supposed to trust in that mind and heart, have faith in it, reason of your own authority that it is true, but as you say it all arises from your own self-evident truth and intuition, which also happens to coalesce with what you say about distorting revelation or mingling the philosophies of those men wanting you to strip away your endowments. You trust in that mind and heart so long as it is tuned or integrated properly. You decide and know when it is properly tuned and integrated. The problem here is this is the battle over the natural man and one would be far better to be mindless and heartless; not in the dejected and foolish senses, but in the self-less non-ego sense-aligning with the mind and heart of god rather than the veiled mind and heart you’ve been given. You vs yours. Great episode, gents.
Great review I really enjoyed the attention to the detail here. I just posted my own review on my channel of all these concepts. I think you might enjoy it, as it is an attempt to show some of your points as well as a few more. If your interested take a look.
My old bishop said once "if you want pure evidence that God lives, pray to him and ask him to humble you."
Best advice I ever got
Holy crap! Yeah idk if that’s good advice but yes that would for sure provide you a witness God is real haha.
That is excellent advice.
If something bad happens to you, it is evidence that god exists. Because you asked to be humbled.
If you want evidence that God lives. Pray to him and ask him to make it rain.
Eventually it will rain and prove god lives
@@getharryonsaxexactly
So true. Had a friend ask the Lord to humble him and it happened.
I realized what I mean when I say, "I know the church is true," on my mission. When I say it I am saying this is the same church that Christ established on the earth restored to the earth again.
I think a beautiful aspect of LDS epistemology is that God is literally revealing Himself to you personally and He will reveal Himself to us in a way that is enough for us on an individual level. Some may have dreams, so may just feel peace, some may have words spoken to them, some may have burning bosoms or visceral experiences, etc. For me, God knew that I could never deny feeling and hearing the Spirit testify to me that the Book of Mormon is true - I cannot doubt it, it is written in my soul.
That is 100% precisely God's intent.
@@thebenplatt that’s a good point, and I think it’s worth more discussion. From a cultural perspective, this is probably less discussed because most assume the Bible is already true whereas the BoM the new guy on the block that needs testing. Additionally, the BoM is the keystone of the religion, in that if the BoM is true, we can also assume the Bible to be true, because the BoM testifies of the veracity of the Bible. And personally, I’ve had spiritual witnesses that all of the standard works, especially the Bible, are true. Hope that helps.
God knows me too. I probably made Him worry due to how long in my youth I waited to pray about it. I am SO THANKFUL for the members of my ward who sacrificed their time, their efforts, their own ease of life, to try to be there for all of the youth of my ward. Their testimonies (evidenced by their efforts) helped a lot of us. I was almost 20, I cannot ignore what I was able to feel as it was like NOTHING I had ever experienced before. My doubts and worries and even dying faith in a God even existing, have always been overcome because of that spiritual experience I had as a 20 year old.
Thanks for sharing your testimony really quick. Just typing one sentence can bring the testifying witness of the Spirit to even just one rando (me) on the internet as he or she scrolls through some comments on a UA-cam vid. Thanks for following the prompting to share your few and simple words
@@ItsSnagret😊
As an investigator of the Restored Gospel (47 yrs ago) I recognized James 1:5-6 and coupled it with 1 Thessalonians 5: 21 Prove (test) all things, hold fast that which is true. Sounds like the scientific method doesn’t it? 😮
I taught my course 10 sunday school kids this same thing today. The come follow me lesson this week was James 1:5
This scripture is a perfect example of this principle in action. It explains that you should trust your own experience and go to the source for enlightenment and intelligence.
This action of seeking creates your spiritual inertia, God will create the fruit.
Guys, this is one of the best. Pure knowledge proceeded forth! I just loved this one. I haven't wanted to part of a group of guys or a clique in a long time until y'all came along. I love the logical approach along with the spiritual. I've been talking to machines (computer programmer) for over thirty years so speaking in logical terms is important to me. For a long time I've seen the restored gospel as far more logical than anything else, but that understand took a while to fully process. I most certainly wasn't there when I was on my mission because it would have helped.
Thanks again! I love the five witness concept!
Yeah… it’s one of my favorites.
10:18 5 witnesses. Intuition. Sensory data. Reason. Moral outcomes. Authority. For those who want a quick refresher.
God thank you!
I came back just for this refresher, thank you!
Thank you!! 🙏🏻
Thank you!
When I say the church is true I literally mean that I know for a fact that it is the true church on the earth. And I then say I know because God has told me it is true.
Really great episode because Cardon was mostly quiet. More content, less noise, better episodes.
Before I was a member of the Church, i had a Bible once (I think an NIV) that said in the study notes that the “for” in Acts2:38 could mean “because of.” The author of that note was Dr Charles Ryrie, who certainly knows Greek, and knows that statement is incorrect (because of the case of the word that the “for” modifies.). But his denomination forced his interpretation in the wrong direction.
This is why I can’t deny that this Church is true because of that experience I had 42 years ago in Michigan because I know too much from my past!
I enjoyed this episode, Jacob!
Hey Leo, I enjoyed your Never Ending Story reference in one of their other episodes. You really do bring a different life experience and personality to the program. I made my own response to this video. Do you feel like taking a look at the other side of this claim? If so check out my latest post.
I've always turned to Moroni 7: 11-18 (proper way to discern truth& error) to verify if something is true or not. In these verses, it mentions how we can have a PERFECT KNOWLEDGE TO THE TRUTH. There are not many if any times the scriptures teach, we can be perfect in something. But here, as we apply the formula in these scriptures, we can have perfect knowledge. Personal revelation wasn't addressed in this video, or at least I didn't think it was emphasized enough. Anyway, I love Moroni 7: 11-18. It makes it so simple, that even a child can understand and apply.
MORONI IS NONSENSE HOW DUMB CAN ANYONE BE TO SWALLOW THIS NONSENSE JOE SMITH WAS A CONMAN END OF
This episode was epic! Very few have come close to the value this one has. Thank you for standing at the forefront of the discussion and crying the truth from the rooftops!
I know, because I have read the book of Mormon, prayed sincerely to ask if it's true, received an undescribable testimony from the holy Spirit. Since I know that the Book of Mormon is true, Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. If he is the prophet, then the church of Jesus Christ is true.
Amen! Right on!
First video of yours I have seen! Wonderful, engaging, faith promoting discussion. Subscribed and can’t wait to hear more.
The Holy Ghost has pure knowledge and has testified this to me, that I will always treasure. Yes the restoration is true. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true and as a pure knowledge as that I live. That is one of of the Holy Ghosts mission. Carol
One of brother Joseph’s quotes was The Things Men Believe in are the Things They Do!!
Hollow earth and casting out goblins in fun fuller, but these types of discussions are the real reason I stick around!
All Christians should have this lesson about Epistemology.
I hate the parroted phrase that "I know the Church is true" especially when it is said by youth. It generally is said with no emotion or conviction. Elder McConkie gave a list of 3-4 things you should always say in your testimony. They are 1- You know that God lives (is real) 2- You know or accept that Jesus is the Christ and died for our sins 3- You believe or know that Josoph Smith was a prophet of God 4- You know the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I understand that these other statements also use the same "I know or I believe" words but the specific reference of belief makes them sound so much more sincere.
Elder Corbridge gave a great talk at a BYU devotional back in 2019. He discusses the 4 methods to know truth, they include scientific, analytical, academic, and divine methods....It's a great talk....highly recommend!
Thank you for taking these matters head-on and helping us all understand how we come to know Gospel truths
We LDS need to quit explaining ourselves trying to get to a more clearer point of how we know how things are true and whatnot... We just need to testify honestly and let the Holy Ghost do the rest. Many members sleep on the power of fasting unto the Lord. If we fast for 24 hours on a fast Sunday and dedicated unto the Lord and His gospel, we will get that Elder Bednar and Elder Holland power. If you're not good at fasting, get good at it and start teaching. You'll thank God that he inspired me to write this comment ✊
I know the church and the Gospel are true. I've never had to be convinced,it just burns in me EVEN when I was away from the church 30yrs.
So glad your program is reaching so many. Think how many would "Know" if only to be taught 1x!!!
This is own of those shows that drops so much knowledge you just got to watch it twice. Thanks Ward Radio and Jacob.
This is you guys at your best: scary smart and informed, logical, fun, entertaining, and intellectually diverse to a point that nobody watching this can simply dismiss you or The Church.
Thanks for an amazing and faith promoting episode!
I dismiss them and the church.
I dismiss Church History as the basis for Truth.
"scary smart" hahahahaha
I dismiss it. This is just motivated reasoning because of brainwashing by the church since birth. The life of joseph smith is all I need to dismiss thie truth claims of the church. How can you continue to believe this?
So well said! Nice, Total Freedom!
This is AWESOME!
I had no idea that all people (members of the LDS Church, other Christians, and all other people) didn’t already know this stuff. Mind blown.
Best WR so far imo. Really really good guys. Thank you. Lots to ponder about.
One thing I notice from the sola scriptura folks is the assumption that we have the burden to prove that the Book of Mormon is true. That's false. The person that demands that God kindly keep His mouth shut has the burden of proof, not the person that listens for His voice with the intent to obey.
And regarding academics and some seminaries: “We have met here today clothed in the black robes of a false priesthood.” -- Hugh Nibley. 'nuf said.
But you are making a fantastic claim...that the Book of Mormon is true. Of course the burden of proof is on you.
@@Themanyfacesofego Those are separate claims. Sola scriptura is one claim. The truth of the Book of Mormon is a different claim. It's not one or the other, except in that sola scriptura demands that God stop talking in any way, including through the Book of Mormon.
This is the 3rd time I've listened to this episode. It's truly one of the best episodes. Just send every single Anti-Mormon, especially Evangelicals, to this episode. Super awesome!
We need a part two to this.
I absolutely agree. More study is required on this topic. I just put my own review of this together if you want to take a look?
Edit: This was a BRILLIANT conversation. Definitely your best. This explains why so many will be confused in the last days and will think the AC is actually Christ. Most Christians have put their faith in their pastors and not in Christ. They don't have the relationship with God. This whole conversation addresses so much of what is going on in our world and in churches. Kwaku's point about churches and God not having a gender and the current gender fight we are battling was nothing short of genius. Gimme more!!
I never say the "Church is True". I say the "Gospel is True" because I understand that any organization staffed with mortals is going to have problems.
The church is the kingdom of God on the earth that encompasses the Gospel of Christ. The saving ordnances is the gospel. You can’t have those without the church’s priesthood authority.
This is a great episode. The best I've listened to. I was feeling sad and disheartened, it cheered me up and gave me a boost.
This episode was just excellent! This is how I feel.
Plato's parable of the cave is relevant. The guy that leaves the cave and sees reality is someone who has received revelation and bears witness of it.
I am at a huge family reunion. I will do everything possible to get the whole family to watch this episode. This is surely your best work ever. I will also feature it on my story, which will soon be advertised on a billboard on southbound I-15 in American Fork. Every living person would benefit from this episode! You are the good and faithful servants.
What is your billboard?
LDS 4 LIFE BABY ✊
according to survey data, 99% of people love completing surveys.
That bit was awesome!!!
I love that Jacob immediately used the example of the Matrix for judging whether something is real or not. It’s one of my favorite series of movies, and a big reason why is because of the philosophical questions like “how do you know what is real” being applied in such a significant way.
13:48. Cardon: "adopting the language of our oppressors"
30:23 Cardon: "their rhetoric, their vocabulary, their institutions and their methodologies"
Am reminded of The Silver Chair and the heroic speech of Puddleglum also by CS Lewis.
Beautiful thought ❤
Puddleglum is the bomb.
I used to consider myself an atheist, now I’m an agnostic, it’s true that atheists/secularists tend to discard what most other people would consider evidence such as personal human experience. Does the spiritual realm exist? Probably 🤔 I’m not sure what it is.
This is my favorite video you have done. Love, love, love it. Thank you!
I love these sorts of episodes (especially with Jacob), but i wish we could somehow get the list. Maybe popping up on the screen as they come up, or with chapters, or in the description. This and the Prodestant Paradox discussion are so good, but hard to navigate if you want to find things later on since the comments don't always seem exactly attached to the idea being discussed all throughout. One, or all, of those changes would really help me be able to find useful things again!
The ancient Jews did the same thing. They believed more in written words and the teachings of Rabi's than Christ. They are their own worst enemies.
This was amazing!
All of you nailed it!
I prayed for all four of you because l see as apostles of the Lord to the world.
You are so bright and spiritually powerful.
This episode:
Entertainment value: 7/10
Educational value: 2/10
Jacob could probably have laid out a good pragmatic argument… maybe. It’s a bit disturbing that he affirmed some of the tangents.
Tackling this issue is one of the most important tasks if you want to make a case for the church - but you have to separate empiric truth from pragmatic truth and let go of the claims of the former and lean into the latter.
This has downstream implications when it comes to “following the prophet” depending on what the prophet is asking of you (I.e. Nov 2015 policy on children of married gay couples) but letting go of empiric truth give you permission to do that.
Looking forward to y’all refining and improving on your arguments here.
Do you find any problems with Jacob’s 5 witnesses?
🤡🤦♀
@@danascully7358 are you implying that Jonathan is a clown?
I think he’s just jealous that this is actually entertaining
Hey Jon, I agree so I put together a review of the entire show. I used some of your cards from isitculty as visual aids it was a fun project and a really good creative way to blow off some steam. Nice seeing ya in the comments take it easy Colonel Totas.
For me, I know the Church is true means, I know the teachings of the Church are true because of my personal witness from the Holy Ghost. If the teachings of the Church are true, therefore the Church is Christ's true Church in this last dispensation of time.
You guys are doing a lot of conflating here.
The first half of the video you created a strawman by showing that self-evident evidence is the fundamental one for self-existence and the existence of the mind, mathematics, logic etc, the spiritual and therefore God.
The question at hand though is the truth of the legitimacy of the LDS church and its claims, not just the general claims of Christianity or most religions.
You then boiled it down to " our church literally just says, come here and have an experience with God, come and get to know Him and you will know for yourself, that its true".
Are you serious?
Just attending an LDS church service or 2 weeks of services, equates to an experience with God and a certainty that He endorses the LDS church?
Why then are long time LDS members having major faith challenges with shelves that are teetering on the brink of crashing and many continue to leave the beloved true church?
I guess that can only be because they are sinful apostates and knowingly reject a relationship with God?
Is that not what all cults say if you leave?
At least a regular Christian church has the general view that the issue may simply be,
a non-essential disagreement or a different taste in the style of worship.
Just face it , one does not need a supernatural witness or lack of warm fuzzies to know that
a church whose major claims about its prophet have been draped in lies for decades and whose main piece of faith literature has all the evidence of human invention and a major lack of corroboration from geographical and historical sources.
How can you expect to be taken seriously when you have no consensus on where the
main events of the BOM took place in the Americas?
This is my fav episode so far! I just got back from a girls trip w two evangelical friends and we had some awesome discussions about similar topics. One area I need to explore further that I was having a hard time articulating in our discussions was why Christ isn’t “enough.” In talking about covenants/temple work/ etc. my friends were adamant that none of that is needed. Honestly I didn’t have a good answer - I talked about being bound to Christ through covenants but they feel they are already bound to him because they’ve accepted him. Anyway… this episode was beautiful in so many ways. I think you’re getting better at not talking over one another. Haha. Thx for a great one. ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Parable of the talents yo str8 from the masters lips. U have to show them what u have learned by your works. The mysteries u know that they only know in parable u have to teach them by the spirit of truth. The Holy Ghost will teach them actually it won't be you.
Matt 13:10-16 this is Jesus saying Jesus is not enough. That their are levels and not everyone is on the same level.
John 16: 12-15 this shows how Jesus is not enough. You have to show them eternal truths. To this end were you born for this cause came you into the world to bear witness to the truth. Those who are of the truth hear his voice. Think about the fruits of the spirit and approach your friends with those fruits you partake together. Don't go about proving to them, they are blind they will see nothing. It will avail u nothing u have to open their eyes. Find what they don't know on the level they are at and raise them up. In the end they have to understand the one true God John 17. Jesus in the end is not enough he is essential to learning to take your first steps like Peter stepping out into the storm tossed sea. Parables use them to reveal the mysteries and their devine potential/birthright. Christ teachings all point to losing your life to find it the greatest work ever wrought was the atonement. Jesus is not enough he is essential but only the rock on which you build. Find scriptures that show the promises of God to those who build on the rock of the redeemer. Stay in the bible till they start to have aha moments and then dive into the restoration. Line upon line. Milk before meat. We eat the bread of life and then partake of the living water. A work the apostles observed after the death of christ.
Or just invite them over to your house to talk shop with the missionaries that's the best way to go.
Faith vs works is a hard one because the bible is mad contradictory in that department. Show them your good works that they may glorify your father which is in heaven show them what they are missing. Christianity wants to side step accountability show them that Jesus held men accountable he asked that they bring forth fruit meet for repentance and to be a light to the world. Ask them what they think the jews did in the temple? Ask them what they think moses did? If god does not change why would these things change for us. They will say jesus. Then ask them why the apostles were at the temple daily? Ask then why do we get baptized? Baptism is a work an ordinace of heaven (somewhere in job 38 it talks about the ordinaces of heaven) you could say if Jesus was enough then why does the scriptures say that he will send the spirit of Elijah before the great and dreadful day. To turn the hearts od the children to the fathers and the hearts of the children to the father if not he would smite the earth with a curse. It appears jesus is not enough. if they believe baptism comes from faith alone then ur pretty much screwed. Continue to show them ur good works and pray that he will soften their hearts.
Congratulations on becoming a Mormon. This life will begin to make a ton of sense for u now. (If in fact your a recent convert if not my bad)
Review the Sacrament Prayer....that should be enough...every week?? (Secret Handshakes, Passwords and Which Shoulder your Robe is on shouldnt control your access to Heaven or God...and really sounds human in origin.)
@@krismurphy7711 sacred temple ordinances don't control access into gods presence? Baptism by the proper authority of the priesthood does. Also, the temple endowment pertains to exaltation, not salvation or inheriting the celestial kingdom which is possible for those who have been baptized as explained. Also, do some more studying about the covenant relationship Christ has with his disciples, sacred embraces of Israelite and Egyptian origin as well as the apocryphal episodes describing Christ's prayer circle, his hand clasps with disciples and how these relate to signs, tokens, handclasps and his crucifixion.
@cptn-4085 The LDS temple endowment ceremony claims specifically and explicitly that it enables you to enter God's presence.
Oh my friend… Jesus IS Enough!
Man I miss back when Kwaku was fighting secularism and the way progressives think
This requires another show so that we can get a deeper dive on the epistemology of Church doctrine
This is one of the best discussion I’ve heard from you brethren. It’s so packed with stuff to digest, think about, and learn, I need to watch it several times and take notes. Great job guys.
I've been jumping around through your episodes for a few weeks, watching different ones, and this one is my absolute favorite now. I can't even describe how important it is for everyone to understand this. Thank you so much for this discussion, and for explaining these 5 ways to ̶k̶n̶o̶w̶ ̶ be confident of the truth of something. 🙏
The difference between faith and sure knowledge is when my wife points to our children and says “these are my children.” She speaks with sure knowledge. I speak with faith.!!
Since reading Meditations on First Philosophy by Rene Descartes I've had more confidence in what I know from the holy ghost over any other knowledge.
The role of the Holy Ghost is to reveal truth directly - totally separate from our flawed perception and logic. That's his role. Any other way to know anything is flawed.
I want to chat about this over a campfire.
So well said. Yes!
You guys should review Street Epistemology with Anthony Magnabosco. He talks about some of these issues and he interviews missionaries from time to time.
I always thought the "burning in the bosom" feeling about the truth of the Book of Mormon had something to do with heartburn.
I'm going to watch this again and take notes. This topic in a more harnessed form would make an amazing sacrament meeting talk or fifth Sunday lesson
I was watching the witnesses last night again, and at the end the statement is made by David witmer that we need to read the book of Mormon for the evidence. I have come to the conclusion that knowing the Bible, and how it is portrayed as truth because of all the archaeological evidence, makes most people lazy about reading it. So they that accept the Bible, except that most of time because of its popularity within their circles, whether it's true or not. The Book of Mormon requires the investigator to actually read the book, even though that it has evidence showing its historical concepts, but is not laid out with towns that are readily available for us to go to and explore. I see this as a necessity, because our our attempt of reading the book of Mormon is to discover Jesus Christ, and you cannot discover Jesus Christ without discovering the people that have had some very unique experiences throughout history.
That was a fantastic discussion!
Glad you liked it :)
One thing I love about the Mormoni promise is it applies the scientific method to prayer and Christianity
That’s heresy. How dare you. 😂
I hope this is sarcasm
it is the opposite of the scientific method. You start out with a belief something is true and ask God to confirm that. You are not starting from an independent perspective and drawing conclusions based on testable hypotheses and the evidence generated.
The thought of Graven Images comes to mind, but we aren't worshipping this, just admiring a faithful servant of our Savior 😊
20:00 - I think I’ve misunderstood you - is this an argument against the old earth perspective? Are you making the case for a young earth and then claiming it’s because of “Shame based” secular academics that people believe the earth is way older than 7000 years?
I think that's exactly what he's saying.
What I am saying is that I think both “young earth creationists” and “old earth” enthusiasts have deep flaws in their views. Young earth folks cling to the Bible saying “it was made in 7 days!… and you don’t have faith if you question me!” This is untenable because even if you believe it was made in 7 days as the Bible says, the metric of a DAY (24 hours) depends upon the heliocentric and Gregorian interpretation of time dependent upon a SUN, that, according to the Bible wasn’t even created until the end of day 2…. Therefore, dear faithful young-earthers, what metric for day are you using in a galaxy with no sun? Don’t limit God like that… it’s not faithful, it’s a legalistic approach to the gospel that condemned the Sadducees.
On the other hand….
Old earthers and “Science” TM nowadays is EVEN WORSE because they’re just as dogmatic, if not more, but they don’t recognize it, claim not to be, and have even more faith-based arguments, holes in their theories, and mythology in their perspective but the whole time they arrogantly claim intellectual superiority. Planetary Red Shift, proven aspects of Relativity, and honest theoretical physicists can reasonably surmise the earth is expanding in a way that would support a Big Bang TM concept, but they cannot explain the small force, they cannot prove basics like “black holes” (despite recent leaps in CERN data from 2018) and where life comes from that “seeded” “Evolution” TM. Also, Science Inc. has been corrupted by market influences worse than religion in the 7th-14th century ever dreamed of. James Lindsay completed discredited Science Inc. (what all the ‘rational’ and ‘aetheist’ folks depend on to ‘prove’ their opinions). All intellectually honest and observant thinkers in the know nowadays concede this, Brett Weinstein, Sam Harris, Tyson, et. al. have recognized, conceded, and lamented the market influence of “grant-based” and corporate-funded “science” that requires “science” proving “scientifically” that cigarettes don’t cause cancer, pesticides aren’t in the drinking water, and all the preservatives and sweeteners we are consuming aren’t killing us. Science, honestly, is a bigger joke than religion… by far. And the anti-religionists that use it to promote evolution over creationism knew the only way they can override the overwhelming self-evidence of God and the grandeur of His creation to make intellectual room for Evolution was by extending the timeline of this weaker dogma to operate over Billions and Billions and Billions of years. Honestly, they sound like the fat kid in the Sandlot talking how big the Beast is and his power “for-ev-er”.
Both are silly.
@@WARDRADIO thank you for this.
@@WARDRADIOYou guys should try to get Tarik D LaCour and Ben Spackman on your show. They'd have some opposing views that I think would be beneficial to discuss.
Great episode. We all need to share this with as many as possible. All believers and non-believers must watch this… and think.
My thoughts exactly.
I watched the whole thing, would you share my review that I posted on my channel as well? I think it shows another side to this claim that alot of members miss.
@@TdaPIANO I sat through OVER 2 HOURS to give you a chance. My review is:
1) Incredibly boring
2) Berdyaev and Jaspers talking points
3) You need a new host. Even the villain needs to be a person viewers care about (Ex: Felonious Gru).
Kind of reminded me of High School “Intro to Philo”. I file your show next to Honey Boo Boo and Gigli. Sorry, man.
Don’t give up- Script these out and use teleprompter.
@@BlueHalfVision Sounds like your looking for entertainment more than substance. GRU from despicable me? I'm honored that I gave you that impression. Even bad guys get right from time to time. Thanks and take care.
@@TdaPIANO I like substance. But in this format, it also has to be worth someone's time. It seemed like a 20-minute read stretched out. And, yes, Despicable Me as example that every character's lines need to be compelling. Don't be too hard on yourself. Hang in there. I think my suggestions will help.
Keep bringing Jacob!
Best vid I've seen you guys do so far. And also one of the best I've seen anywhere.
I have taken undergrad and graduate level philosophy courses on Epistemology. I have always subcribed to the theory that all begins with the Spirit (intuition) and other ways of knowing can help increase understanding of and conviction to that which the Spirit reveals. I enjoyed your discussion. Thank you for sharing your perspectives in a lively discussion.
The biggest thing missing from the conversation is people who believe conflicting self-evident ideas. If A believes X is self evident and B believes Y is self evident, and X and Y cannot both be true, then you have an issue. How do you solve this appeal?
I think truth is most usefully defined as that which conforms to reality. So something that does not conform to reality and is not true (like belief in reincarnation based on good works) can still provide a moral good like social order. Moral truth is not a good indicator of actual reality.
Yet another banger. Been waiting for one on this subject. Well done
I’ve been asked by numerous people “What do you do when God is silent to your prayers?”
Cardon @ 41:53 is that why it also says in the scriptures that in the last of days Men’s hearts will fail them? And that even the elect among us will be fooled? … That’s deep brother!!
I was kinda excited about this one, but it fell short for me. Studying epistemology threw a pretty big wrench in my relationship with the church. I was looking forward to some strong arguments, but I didn't hear any. This discussion might feel helpful to someone who knows someone who has mentioned epistemology as a reason for a faith crisis, but it doesn't actually dive into it with substance.
"neverenough"
'fell short?'
Could then it be said that your handle spells it all out about you?
@@rconger384 wow. That's gaslighting.
@@catherinecooper8370 Nope. Not gaslighting. He's making a guess about evidence that "neverenough" has provided.
You can't just study but go and do. Don't stop studying. It'll come.
I agree with using method to disprove the atheist argument.
Athiest: you can't prove God is real.
Me: of course I can.
Atheist: how?
Me: how do you know that DNA is real?
Atheist: because scientists have done studies that show that DNA is real.
Me: So you have faith in scientists. Well, prophets apostles and others have witnessed the power of God, and I have faith in prophets.
Atheists: yes, but scientific studies are repeatable.
Me: So are religious. Study the scriptures and ask God if those teachings are true, and he will give you a personal witness.
It's the scientific method.
Many people ask god and don’t receive anything, and even if they believe they do, many people in many conflicting religions experience the same, they can’t all be true, and it’s not scientific because it’s not observable or empirical
Awesome! I love simple truths and wisdom discussed and presented to clearly logical that its depth of profoundness completely blows my mind!
Kwaku is the king of swerving the conversation into head on traffic.
Like other Christians when you speak of personal revelation and they look at you like you have a third eye...
I loved this discussion!! My baby has an ear infection. Thanks for helping me get through the late nights! ☺️
You're a good mama. If it keeps recurring, then in a few years, check on adnoid removal.
Awesome podcast god bless you gentlemen . I agree 1,000 % with everything y’all said.
You're just flattering yourselves saying the LDS church is true. The church is not God. God is true. People are not true and the church throughout history has always apostatized.
Disgusting cult
Another enjoyable watch even though I disagree with much of it. Thank you for the insight, gentlemen!
Lol
What's interesting is that the scriptures use the verb "conocer" to know things, but when we bear a testimony in Spanish, we use the verb "saber" to know that the Church is true. Maybe in the next fast and testimony meeting I'm going to say "Les conozco a Dios y a Jesucristo" instead of "Sé que Jesucristo existe" 🤔🙌
I had this same thought. “Yo se….yo se…” is all I heard in Peru.
Hey guys!! I’m an evangelical sola____ I violently disagree with most of the LDS doctrine but LOVE listening to epistemological conversations like these.
Christ or CHAOS
-Frank
What is the name of Jacob's podcast? I think you guys have mentioned that he does one
Wow, Jacob! You used the verses in 1 Corinthians that I have long used to defend the Church since joining 5 years ago. You are a miraculous midnight mormon to me, by my epistemology.
5 years in? Congrats I was born into it back in 1981. Since then I served my mission in southern France, served in the US Air Force studying many facets of communication. I currently enrolled in the theology and religion department at the University of San Francisco. I just did a review on this entire video. It's a very serious critique of some of the flaws in this video and LDS claim as a whole. I just posted it on my channel if you want an in depth review of the other side of the coin?
Thanks man :)
Just sharing what I find as I explore the depths of the gospel.
This is sooo helpful. I love how this channel balances the kooky stuff and these really thought-provoking ideas about our faith.
I really enjoy listening to your podcasts, but there is one VERY IMPORTANT issue that none of you seem to be addressing, including the likes of John Dehlin; and those who are trashing the beliefs and doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We believe first and foremost in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior Secondly, we believe that Joseph Smith, Jr., was called by the Savior to be his prophet, and why was he called? He was called to bring about the RESTORATION of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Those who are being encouraged to leave the Church and debunking its teachings, do so at their own peril. If The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is false, then there can be NO CHURCH OR RELIGION presently on the earth that can guarantee one's salvation because of the APOSTACY and abominable doctrines that were taught and took place from the end of the second century until the reformers began questioning the teachings of the universal church beginning in the 1200's which ultimately led to the Protestant Reformation Movement thus creating hundreds, if not thousands of different churches and denominations, all claiming to be Christians. Paul asked the question, "Is Christ divided?"
These Christians see the 27 books that make up the New Testament as their unequitable authority to teach the gospel, but the Lord himself declared that they "teach the philosophies of men mingled with scripture." The New Testament has many missing parts, including lost scriptures, and the doctrines of Christ are incomplete, so if they are claiming The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is now a false church, then because of the fall of man we are all condemned despite the fact that Christ died to save mankind, and if this be the case, then there can be no other church or religion that is organized or sanctioned by the Lord to bring about the salvation of mankind, and we are all damned.
Those who think otherwise are modern day strawmen and false prophets like unto Kohihor and Zeezrum in the Book of Mormon, and furthermore, those who advocate against the teachings of Joseph Smith, our modern day prophets, etc., are anti-Christs. You need to remind people about the dangers of listening to those who would lead people away with flattery and smooth sounding talk as though they are self-proclaimed experts on religious teachings.
There was an apostasy that occurred by the end of the second century, and the reformation movement was necessary to reveal some of those false doctrines that were being taught, but those who believe in the teachings of these reformers do not understand the full picture. They became the forerunners to prepare the way for the restoration of the true gospel of Jesus Christ and his Church.
Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. He was taught by the Savior himself, as well as many other angelic messengers. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints may have its problems, but they are not as serious as what others would have you believe or to enlighten you to reject the teachings of our church and follow the likes of John Dehlin. I would go so far as to prophesy that the day will come when Dehlin and others like him who subscribe to his teachings will realize the terrible mistakes they've made in sitting themselves up as a modern day prophets and anti-Christs leading people away from the Lord's true Church.
And yes, as secularism takes root and society breaks down into tribes, those who believe in Christ will one day suffer even greater persecutions because they continue to believe in Christ, whether they are members of The Church of Jesus Christ or not, and they will be no different than those early martyred Christians and apostles who stood firm in the first and second centuries for their testimonies of Christ, only this time it will be because they also believe in the restoration which ought to be the bulwark of these discussions .
Thank you for talking about something that matters.
When we have apostles, telling every member that “your testimony is gained in the bearing of it,” then witnesses are not enough anymore.
It sounds like you are getting away from the question of what Joseph Smith claimed. Either he saw God and translated the book of Mormon from ancient records from real people, as he claimed, or he didn’t.
15:43 the metaphor of the oceanic blossom: Let’s turn that around. Imagine the church said, “don’t go to the ocean, because it’s not there.” this is what our church says to members “don’t counsel with those who don’t believe.”
Bible Reading Vs. Revelations
Furthermore, about 1832 Joseph Smith, Jr. began an account of the origin of the Mormon Church (the only one written in his own hand) that contradicts the official First Vision story he dictated some six years later. The account was never finished. (See the text in BYU Studies, Spring 1969, pp. 278ff.)
In this version Joseph presents himself between the ages of 12 and 15 as being a committed and perceptive reader of the Bible. He claims that his study of the Scriptures led him to understand that all of the denominations were wrong. He wrote: “By searching the Scriptures I found that mankind did not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatized from the true and living faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the Gospel of Jesus Christ as recorded in the new testament.”
I saw this podcast and the title grabbed me as epistemology is one of my favorite topics. I thought the discussion was spot on at first then quickly deviated from being reasonable. You should listen to Jonathan Streeter's podcast "How to fix your faith crisis with this one weird trick". He pushes the idea of wood tools vs. steel tools as a means of epistemology. Steel tools, as he defines them, are useful in discerning between truth and error; wood tools are not very useful. In the case of knowing if the LDS church is true, look methods you are pushing here to see if any church could use the same method you are purporting. If a member of both the Jehovah Witnesses and LDS can use these methods to be able to say they know, then its a wood tool, unable to give you the best opportunity to discover actual truth. The UA-cam video "Spiritual Witnesses" shows people of many religions saying they know theirs is the true church, mostly based on the ideas you are suggesting here. I realize I can't know anything for certain, but I want to use steel tools to help me have the best probability of finding and incorporating true ideas into my life.
Another great episode! Helpful ideas (going with sisters to a dude who rests on bibles authority) trying to get him to pray.
These fruits are so good!
Minor disagreement... I believe we CAN know 100% that the Church is True, or really anything. I say that because I did it.
When I first joined the Church, I joined because I saw from all the Evidence that is was good, the best, and the most correct, i.e. actually fitting the Bible that I would read in other religions and saw them not actually fitting the book. I saw the value of it at creating better human beings over anything else, so I joined. I then in my late teens early 20's became anti-mormon and anti-religion to a degree, due to my further learning and growing up in the modern perspective of things and studying anything and everything useful, I was big into Eastern Philosophy's and New Age btw during this time. I then decided to continue to learn, to put away my judgments and start fresh. I again eliminated anything else as potentially "true" and then compared anti-mormonism with LDS scholarship, saw that anti-mormonism did nothing but used a little truth to tell great lies. I then delved into the issues I had with the church, got again educated, that I was simply ignorant of the truths and facts related to them, and then literally one day the spirit hit me so hard, it literally felt like new brain cells were created, and I KNEW without question that the Church was literally true, not another man-made religion.
I had gained so much evidence from ALL the Epistemological methodology's that made the question unquestionable.
This is why most intellectuals in the world as studies have shown tend to LEAVE religion, while it's the complete opposite with LDS Intellectuals. They tend to remain IN the Church... and the reason for that is BECAUSE it's literally true. It CAN be scientifically demonstrated to be so. I was using the scientific method, aka the 5 Epistemological methods, intentionally since I was 6 years old, to understand human behavior, history, politics, religion, good and evil, etc.
Sometimes one just knows what one knows.
This was so good it was golden! Thank you!
I know this is Christ’s church because I know Christ would also treat gay people differently than straight people. I’m happiest following a prophet who doesn’t believe in equal rights. God bless you, straight brethren!
0. Knowing - 2:20 Agreed with Kwaku here. Nicely said.
4:25 “…except for the fact that you exist…” is included in that cloud of “rational certainty”. This is not a certainty, rational or otherwise. “I think therefore I am” is not complete without “I am, therefore I think.”
There is a valence to what one knows.
1. Intuition - While an intuition can and may be true all it is is the powerful sense that something is true without knowing the reason behind why. This touches on No. 0 and No. 3 as well.
Cardon - 15:40 I see what you’re going for here, but it’s too narrow. I spoke with sacred geometry and a dragon on dmt. I know some who have spoken with geometry, but none with a dragon. Many would probably tell me that this dragon isn’t real and doesn’t exist, but others have reported seeing a dragon flying by in their dmt experience. I invite you to come and see this, and in this case everyone will indeed tell us we’re trippin.’ We’ll know it’s “real” though. Additionally, could what you’re saying here not also be applied to the historical inquiry of evolution? 🤔
2. Sensory Data - I am therefore I sense. What if our brain was in our ass? How would our sensory input be presented and where would the “I” “you” feel seated? I think/sense therefore I am; I am therefore I think/sense are one and the same. Agreed on self-evidence. You don’t know what you don’t know until it is evident to you.
3. Reason is justification. The rest is authority. The only thing I’ll add is that faith is intertwined here. You were getting into this back at around 10:10 I think.
30:10 Secular Dementors
31:30 A, dare I say, Third Eye?
39:03 - Conhecer in Portuguese is used as “to meet” which is several different variations of “to know.” To meet in person, to meet at an understanding, etc.
40:35 - too bad everything is a waver
42:20 Agreed. I say it’s “citations all the way down”
4. Moral Outcome/Function/Fruits - Not sure this was discussed much, directly… or perhaps I had anything to add.
5. Authority is your own opinion and thus your own authority. What’s the reason for this?
47:15 - “You” and “Yours” is the fundamental property that I believe is misunderstood here, even from a deeply Mormon perspective. That which is acting upon “you” is not “you” but I would grant that it is “yours.” Your hand is yours but you are not your hand. Your hand is a make-up of intelligences held within a different sphere of creation and is eternally progressing in conjunction with you; in union, yolked upon one another. How else does Christ heal the lepers and the blind and move mountains and water and change staffs into serpents and healthy flesh into rotten flesh and back again, et al? He understands the fundamental difference between you and yours, order and chaos. He moves mountains with his, in the end, self-reasoned and self-authorized priesthood knowledge and understanding of the order of gods things; gods straw dogs; “Conhecendo de coisas de Deus.” After-all, did God not say he hath created all things both to act and to be acted upon?
Additionally, I feel like the concept you discuss here contradicts ideas of intuition. “You” have been given a mind and heart, and you’re supposed to trust in that mind and heart, have faith in it, reason of your own authority that it is true, but as you say it all arises from your own self-evident truth and intuition, which also happens to coalesce with what you say about distorting revelation or mingling the philosophies of those men wanting you to strip away your endowments. You trust in that mind and heart so long as it is tuned or integrated properly. You decide and know when it is properly tuned and integrated. The problem here is this is the battle over the natural man and one would be far better to be mindless and heartless; not in the dejected and foolish senses, but in the self-less non-ego sense-aligning with the mind and heart of god rather than the veiled mind and heart you’ve been given. You vs yours.
Great episode, gents.
Great review I really enjoyed the attention to the detail here. I just posted my own review on my channel of all these concepts. I think you might enjoy it, as it is an attempt to show some of your points as well as a few more. If your interested take a look.
@@TdaPIANO I’ll take a look later today!
Gotta listen to than one again. Well done!