A couple of big green marbles for me. When i was 13 my older brother was one week away from returning home from his mission when he got in a car accident that nearly took his life. While my family fasted and prayed for him, I cannot describe how I felt. It shook me and gave me a solid understanding that my brother was willing to give his life to teach the gospel to strangers in Argentina and my parents were of course sad and nervous, but they had faith to accept God's will whatever the outcome and taught us, prepared us to do the same. He survived and although he was in physical therapy for a year are that to learn to walk again, he is currently serving in the United States Army, stationed in Poland right now, still sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ and living what he knows to be right. Also, a few years later, I had an incredible experience at age 16 when I read the Book of Mormon for the first time all the way through by myself. I don't think I should share what specifically happened, but I can say that there is absolutely no doubt in my mind or heart about the Book of Mormon being true and that Jesus Christ is real. No doubt. Great discussion! As always
Unless you have seen Jesus or a true Heavenly Messenger.....it's all in your head. Human Emotions are very powerful. Who cannot read The Book of Mormon and not be "moved" by some of the stories in it. King Benjamin is a great example of after reading what he "said" who would not get warm and fuzzies?
@krismurphy7711 I never said I didn't see Him, but it does not matter if I have or haven't. Seeing is not believing. You can know Jesus is real without seeing Him. I know Jesus is real. Many saw Him and didn't believe He was who He said He was. You probably wouldn't know Jesus Christ if he was standing in front of you, Kris, with that understanding of faith. Very sad. We'll keep praying for you, brother. Also, you don't believe those who say they HAVE seen Him with their own eyes, and dozens of heavenly messengers. They have seen His face and described it, they have heard His voice and described it. You don't believe them, why would you believe me if I said I have? No matter how many red marbles you try to pour on my scale, they'll never outweigh my green marbles. Ever.
The biggest Red Marble is Joseph Smith's STORY about his CLAIMED "First Vision." The FIRST TIME he tells the Story it ends up differing radically from ALL LATER VERSIONS. This is almost certain proof he made it all up. If You or Me had a face to face with GOD THE FATHER AND JESUS CHRIST, we would not forget one or the other were not there in LATER Versions. AND in the 1838 Version of His Story, HE LIED. FLAT OUT LIES. The "scale" in question only needs ONE RED MARBLE to tilt ALL THE WAY, THAT WAY.@@establishingzion688
I went to a Jewish Torah study class to see what it was like. What struck me was how, as we read and discussed the scriptures, verses from the New Testament, the BOM, and D&C so readily jumped into my mind. They gave an added richness and a testimony to the scriptures I was studying.
Your observations highlight interesting connections between the scriptures. It's worth noting, though, that the New Testament, BOM, and D&C were written when the Old Testament was already established. This means writers could've been influenced by it, intentionally or unintentionally weaving in its themes. So, while there's a sense of divine cohesiveness, there's also the possibility of human-driven continuity between the texts.
My faith crisis was immediately solved by The Book of Mormon. Just reading the words of Jesus in 3 Nephi was enough to outweigh all the reasons to doubt. God reconstructed my faith from there and I have come out stronger than ever. My armor has no shine but it speaks of the battles I've fought. I don't care what people have to say about Joseph Smith because in the end, the Book of Mormon is a true testament of Christ and his status as King and God. JS was chosen to bring it forth and he did so when the world finally accepts it, they will also have to re-evaluate their position on him. That will be fun
Same for me but I had to be broken and humbled to the lowest to make that approach back and it transitioned to Christ and the Book of Mormon. Within days, I was on fire fully prepared to repent and save the world!
@@beau4307 I'm sure our souls met in the mist of darkness. We are the people of Revelation 7: 9-17. Keep running and preaching, brother for you are chosen. The best way to fight the enemy is to know the enemy and that's why God allowed us to face the darkest tribulations. My profile pic is actually meant to show the pig slop us prodigal sons once did eat. Thank you for answering your call back home. There's no telling how many people you will touch and help turn back to God.
@@Cleeveable because it confirmed that I wasn't following a false Jesus, or even a distorted version which is something LDS hear constantly and I was actually starting to believe it. Anti-Mormons have a very cunning way of convincing us something isn't biblical even when we are quoting straight from the Bible. If we aren't equipped with wisdom and understanding, or we choose to just go through the motions of church without actually studying the scriptures, we can be easily convinced. The Book of Mormon flat out says over and over that Father, Son, Holy Spirit, are one eternal God. Alma 11:44, Mormon 7:7 are just 2 of many. Even Joseph Smith said it through revelation from God. D&C 20:28 is the only one I can cite for sure but It does not say in purpose and It does not separate them in any way. I'm not saying it's the exact Trinity in the same sense that some Christians believe but what's written is written. It does not contradict The Bible and in fact it completely strengthens it while absolutely confirming Jesus is Lord and savior by him coming out of heaven after his resurrection to visit his other sheep. So no matter what teachings get passed down through our church, we literally have the liberty to refute and reject any of them if they contradict The Word.
I love how the more I study and learn the more pieces of the “puzzle” of this gospel fits perfectly. There is nothing else that leads me to Christ better than His restored gospel!
That mindset is why I left Quora. One of my final questions I asked was a long the lines of, "Assume your argument has convinced me that Mormonism is wrong, what do I do now?" The first answer came within an hour and was basically, "repent, believe in Christ. And join a Biblical Church." I commented "done, I went back to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Now what?"
I know a woman who currently has passed away but decades before she died of old age, she died in the hospital while a faithful priesthood holder was there. He laued his hands on her head and commanded her spirit to come back into her body in the name of Jesus Christ and power of the priesthood. Her spirit was on the other side, heard him speak and realized that her son and husband needed her. She chose to return and her body responded back to life.
When you witness miracles like that first hand, or hear it from reliable sources, it's a really big green marble! I have a few miracles in my life that I told my brother during his faith crisis but unfortunately my experiences weren't enough to buoy him up.
Whenever a criticism is made, I love the question of "compared to what?" Any criticism is just a comparison. When no comparison is made explicit, then the implicit comparison is some ideal that is probably not being contested. If we are comparing the history of the church to a heavenly ideal, of course it will fall short. If we compare it to other human institutions, assuming complete transparency, we won't find anything better.
Is the history of the church all that stellar compared to all other human institutions? Just FYI I'm nevermo and not here to tear down or anything, I just find LDS interesting and I enjoy having dialog with those with differing worldviews. I grew up Catholic but went on a determined search for Total Truth that began in 2006 and continues to this day.
@@truthbebold4009 A lot of it depends on how much you trust the narrative told by each institution. Every institution that survives tells its own history in a positive light. Every government has its share of bad history and corruption. And if you look at other churches, he also have their fair share of corruption and self-dealing, including the general acceptance of priestcraft.
What are my green, yellow and blue marbles? There are so many. Here are three: ~ As a four year old boy I experienced something that could only be described as God's embrace as I sat in an LDS chapel. ~ As the years passed and my understanding of the universe grew, I could listen for hours to my oldest brother as he spoke about astronomy and God. ~ On a particular Sabbath Day, I had a C. S. Lewis experience; I went to my Elder's Quorum lesson out of duty. Before the Elder's Quorum lesson, I logically knew that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. After the lesson, I SPIRITUALLY knew that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. After these three life changing experiences and several others, I had personal, customized evidences for the existence of God The Father, His Son, Jesus Christ and The Holy Ghost. I knew that I could fully rely on forgiveness of my sins and so forgiveness became easier to extend. My conclusion is that as I learned how to learn to about Jesus Christ, I became spiritually aware of His character and I then knew I could trust God to teach me how to forgive, be compassionate, love my enemies etc... When Jesus Christ said that He is The Way, I believe that He truly is THE ONLY WAY that I could learn these things to become like Him. Everything else related to His Gospel and doctrine are plain and simple now that I spiritually know these characteristics of Jesus Christ. Keeping my marbles stacked high on the right side of the scale takes daily effort.
So was your experience like what Joseph Smith claimed.... An Angel with a Flaming Sword appeared to you?? (Joseph said one did to him telling him to marry all the Young Girls and women he could...in a State where Polygamy was illegal.)
@@krismurphy7711 check your history Poligamy wasn't illegal until the Edmunds act in 1882. The Edmunds Act, also known as the Edmunds Anti-Polygamy Act of 1882,[1] is a United States federal statute, signed into law on March 23, 1882 by President Chester A. Arthur, declaring polygamy a felony in federal territories, punishable by "a fine of not more than five hundred dollars and by imprisonment for a term of not more than five years"
"Polygamy was against the law in Illinois. An Illinois state law was enacted February 12, 1833: "Bigamy consists in the having of two wives or two husbands at one and the same time, knowing that the former husband or wife is still alive. If any person or persons within the State, being married, or who shall hereafter marry, do at any time marry any person or persons, the former husband or wife being alive, the person so offended shall, on conviction thereof, be punished by a fine, not exceeding one thousand dollars, and imprisoned in the penitentiary, not exceeding two years." (Revised Laws of Illinois, Vandalia: Greiner & Sherman, 1833, pg. 198-199)."@@TheRegimentalscot
Just in case this wasn't included in your "etc" -> Unshaken with Bro Hal (Jared Halverson) is a MUST. He went to Vanderbilt and his emphasis was on American religious history with a focus on the anti-religion movement therein. He weaves anti-anti-religious content into all his magnificent lessons. The man is a living treasure. I also vote for pretty much anything Anthony Sweat puts out as well. His stuff on the unfolding restoration and temple, for example, are exceptional.
So "The Temple" is not just Joseph Smith's mind ablazing with his "creative thoughts" including that Masonry, which was his new fad, WAS a lost series of rituals that needed to be RESTORED!!!....???@@DaremoDaremo
@@lukev483 Luke, Luke, I am your Father!! -:) -:) Anyhow, the point of this video is the attackers must defend what they believe. Anyone can throw stones. Step up your game -> What do you believe? And why?
@@lukev483 If you truly understand the amount of effort it takes to make one woman happy let alone 2 or 3. you would realize how asinine and shallow your statement is. Especially if you consider the implications. Imagine dealing with PMS not from one person a month but 2 or multiple women and what's worse they all sync. Imagine not having 1 mortgage or households to maintain but 2 or three which was required under the time it was practiced. Imagine having up to 25 kids to all feed, clothe, educate and provide for. If you think the sexual gratification was worth that then you truly have earned the Darwin award. Putting up a bunch of saloons like most of your 19th century western ancestors or multiple revolving door marriages with divorces in the east US and Europe would have been far less exasperating and frustrating. But I'll humor your premise for just a second by just stating methinks thou art a little jealous. Especially in light of todays society and the culture of the last 60 years at least my ancestor ( by the way only one of which was polygamous because only 15-20% of the church ever practiced it and it had to be sanctioned by church leadership. You just couldn't do it) had the decency to marry the Woman and be a father to all the kids till death. I might well ask how many bastard step siblings, divorces or affairs will you find through out your family history. Not to mention that if you are also an advocate of LGB marriage then you lose any standing at all to make such an argument or be dubbed a hypocrite if one variable can change then why not another if there is no religious foundation to marriage and it is all a social construct then as long as they're consenting adults where do you have any moral standing whatsoever other than cultural bias. and by the way I have one wife and even if it were possible I would not want more because any more would drive any sane person crazy.
Possibly my biggest “green marble” is that I do not believe wicked men could have written the scriptures. Too many lives have been changed and even saved through their words to say that they were made up by people trying to swindle others. Whether those people lived in 1830 or 33 A.D.
LOL...what a croc. Jacob has admitted that Joseph Smith lied. He admitted the "Adamic Language" was bunk....ANOTHER Smith LIE. If he is going to slay false prophets, he can start with Joseph Smith.
I love the phrase: I don’t want to know what you do not believe in- I want to know what you DO believe in. Human experience is about believing in something
Great episode!! The simple Truths of the gospel just make sense. The plan of salvation makes sense. Traditional family and the love that comes from that and the similitude of that with Heavenly parents and the Plan just makes sense…. And most importantly the confirmation of all of it by the Holy Spirit!!!
Our own church culture has looked down on any member attacking because that is considered "contentious". In fact, we are discouraged from preaching anything other than sunshine and rainbows (literally sometimes) at church. Personally, I never back down ever. That is why I will never be called as a bishop. I don't play Mr niceguy gospel. I tell the truth and most people don't want to hear it, especially among the membership.
Truth. "That is why I will never be called as a bishop." So, if you and I continue to be "obnoxious" (a name I have earned) at church we won't be called to be a bishop? Let's march on with truth!!!
@@lukev483 lol I love how people pull this out when they have an idea challenged. Nelson also said “…I am not talking about “peace at any price”.” BOM teaches this very clearly. We have our muskets on standby 😂
We are commanded to be honest, we are commanded to be kind and love one another. There is a way to do both. We are not commanded to be a door mat. The Lord hands us difficult situations perhaps so we can learn about how to set healthy boundaries. How do you be child like without being childish 🤔 by standing your ground and still being tactful? How do you remain confident while not being prideful? 🤔 Stand up for what you know is true while remaining open minded/open hearted to expanding that knowledge. I once sat in an Elders Quorum while an obnoxious know it all sort kept interrupting the lesson to show us how smart he was. Finally he was interrupted by a furious member of the Quorum who called him out on some false doctrine he was spewing. With a wailing and gnashing of teeth, this brother told off the obnoxious one and left the room. I don't believe either man acted in a way that was Christ-like. None of us are perfect, is it so hard to cut each other some slack?
@5:00 this is basically exactly how I took my conversations with my evangelical friends in Indiana and I know now how bad that was for me to do over and over again, but at the time I thought that was my best course of action. To just answer their questions, criticisms, etc. and try to do so with as much patience and research as possible. I love the alternative perspective Jacob is sharing here with an emphasis on still being productive and basically applying Pres. Nelson's advice.
10 years ago I sat in my bishops office and felt the cleansing power of the atonement after the spirit guided me on the need to make an appointment with him. I left his office on fire, with a desire to do as much temple work for those who've passed on that I can. It's been life changing and has grounded me. I've had so many experiences with family history work and taking their names to the temple, the veil has become so thin. I've gone to the temple with heavy questions about church history and Joseph Smith after listening to family members who've left the church and have received answers in ways I will never forget and I've never doubted the character of Joseph Smith again, so because of the atonement of the Savior and weekly temple attendance my roots have gone deeper. There really is strength that comes from the temple, personal revelation becomes clearer and obedience becomes joyful.
PLEASE SHARE some of you "answers" about Joseph Smith. Since I found out about his fraudulent moneydigging....and his marrying YOUNG GIRLS (and keeping it from Emma and The Church...and publicly lying about it)...as well as ALL HIS OTHER BS, I've completely done a 180 on him. I was born and raised and indoctrinated...and now, I see it all so clearly. IF YOU REALLY HAVE ANSWERS TO ALL THIS "CRAP"....PLEASE SHARE.
@@lukev483 Don't study the Bible to closely or you might get creeped out by other Christians. Because you will see so much of the in their that you find in the temple.
Church life has been difficult for me. My experience in the church has been net negative. But the restored gospel has been a massive blessing and my experience with the gospel has been a massive net positive
Yeah we can understand that. It might have been a net positive for your experience, but it has also probably built your patience and your capacity to forgive. You have probably learned to serve and help a lot of people along the way. Christ does not promise a vacation in this life, but glory in. In the life to come. But we get it dude. Hang out here with us.
my reason to beleive is the amount of testimony from the spirit in my first year of contact with the church ,the bom,the elders, angels ,priesthood ,revelation is beyond comparaison with 25 years as a catho.
My reasons to believe have nothing to do with anything using your mind or intellectual discussions. Rather it has to do with actual experiences with the Holy Spirit. I have been healed by members of the priesthood, well rather buy God working through the priesthood, and that's a real thing that actually happened. I was healed of being transgender by the prayers of a woman with the most beautiful soul of anyone I've ever known. That is a very nearly impossible thing to have, happen, yet it did. The Holy Spirit is really with me all the time and that is a fact because you can sense His presence and the love of God he bestows upon you. There's a lot more to my testimony, but it all relates to things have actually happened.Intellectual discourse has its place, but actual experiences are more compelling!
For me, the Book of Mormon is a massive boulder on my scales. As Holland said, I have to crawl around or under or over that boulder before I leave the church. Haven’t been able to do it yet. Doubt I ever will.
MY BIG REASON to believe => I had a spiritual conversion at age 7 (months before my baptism) that Joseph saw God the Father and his Son in the Sacred Grove and it has DOMINATED my life since....it is almost as if I personally had my own first vision and as Joseph Smith stated he could NOT deny it.....I likewise CANNOT deny it.
In 1850 John Taylor, who was an apostle at the time, was doing missionary work in France and he was challenged to a debate by three protestant ministers. He accepted and debated them for three nights. Things have definitely changed since then. Could you imagine one of the twelve doing that today?
Regardless the darts thrown by the world at my faith, I can always find strength in the incredible organization and consistency found in the Church all over the world. No other religion can compare. The more I discover about the layers of order the more I am amazed. God is a God of Order. His church would follow that pattern. God takes this huge fault filled volunteer army of disciples and created world wide church of order. How could it not be true? That and of course the tender relationship I have with the same God. I stand all amazed!
Thank you for the episode! I believe because of the spiritual witnesses I’ve had regarding The Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, Jesus Christ, Heavenly Father and more. Obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel have guided me in receiving those witnesses. I’m so grateful for them and hope all men, women, and children will experience the same.
One big green marble for me is how the Book of Mormon and our other restoration scriptures makes the Bible come even more alive. They come together like two sides of a zipper.
My personal experiences with the Saviour in my study of the Book of Mormon and the scriptures in general, including conference talks, are my principles reasons for believing. I mean, really, I have a sure knowledge of many of those things, and because Jesus visits me in my worship it pretty much solidifies me in staying. All of the people who would try to sway me away from the gospel and the church have never come close to even touching those things. They usually cite things that are garbage, completely trivial, or have to do with someone else's accountability (which is irrelevant to me). Also, just about every time a "doubt" issue arises for me, when I humble myself by saying that I don't know the answer to this, but I know that God does, His Spirit enters my mind and heart and either teaches me about it or gives me peace sufficient to dissipate any doubt or worry.
This is actually quite beautiful, Mark. Dont let anyone make you feel bad or stupid or sentimental because you are sensitive to the Spirit like that. It's awesome
@@krismurphy7711that’s because it’s true. The spirit testifies of truth and those movies portray the truth of Christ’s mission and atonement. I would expect people to have those feelings.
@@tacotuesday1960 That’s convenient. Everyone who gets a warm and fuzzy …it is The Spirit? War movie heroes? Good endings?? Character overcomes all?? Lol. Human Emotion vs Spirit?!?!
@@krismurphy7711 all those things are types and shadows of Christ. The hero’s journey is a type and shadow of our journey that we go through here on earth. We resonate with those stories because deep inside there’s something that resonates with our soul as more than true. Your spirit knows many things that you aren’t fully aware of. That’s why spirituality is so important and why almost every civilization has embraced the spiritual. It’s a part of our being.
The Prophet Joseph Smith said this about the persistence of wicked men: "The enemies of this people will never get weary of their persecution against the Church, until they are overcome. I expect they will array everything against me that is in their power to control, and that we shall have a long and tremendous warfare. He that will war the true Christian warfare against the corruptions of these last days will have wicked men and angels of devils, and all the infernal powers of darkness continually arrayed against him. When wicked and corrupt men oppose, it is a criterion to judge if a man is warring the Christian warfare. When all men speak evil of you falsely, blessed are ye. Shall a man be considered bad, when men speak evil of him? No. If a man stands and opposes the world of sin, he may expect to have all wicked and corrupt spirits arrayed against him. But it will be but a little season, and all these afflictions will be turned away from us, inasmuch as we are faithful, and are not overcome by these evils. By seeing the blessings of the endowment rolling on, and the kingdom increasing and spreading from sea to sea, we shall rejoice that we were not overcome by these foolish things."
The type of offense we must take is to love, share, and invite, so that the Spirit can do His work. The Book of Mormon shows why physically defending was always superior to being in the offense like the Lamanites. We don't need to shatter every argument, we need to focus on the humble and ready to learn, who are open to more light.
I think each member is being blessed, if they weren’t they would not be active. I became a member as an adult, it may be easier for me to recognize blessings coming to myself or others. I hear ex-LDS talk about how the church blessed their youth so greatly, they seem to be saying they don’t need God’s help anymore, right?
I believe because the power of God is in my life making changes I cannot make in my own. This happened when I decided to be “All in” as it were and promised to always doubt my doubts. If someone says the powers isn’t from Jesus but the devil I will tell them I worship Jesus and point them to all the same arguments they make for the over own apologia that mean Christ was Christ and not an evil wizard.
I had a faith crisis in my early 20’s (20 years ago now). I made my way back after 9 years of inactivity and unbelief. My belief in the Gospel, Christ, The Restoration and The Book of Mormon is based on the personal witnesses I have received of truthfulness of those things.
This is awesome. This is so cool to hear. Nice work finding your way back. Yeah, no matter what I think about this ir that, the simple fact remains that the BoM is impossible. No one could have just written that book. It's a miracle. I received my witness of it and that will always be my foundation.
@@WARDRADIO yes, I know it’s true and God knows I know it is. All other temporal evidences are icing on the cake because of the witness given to me by the Holy Spirit of Promise and my relationship with Christ. I can’t be “talked out” of those because there’s no denying truth.
What about the Koran? What about Tolkein?? "It came to pass" is not the sign of literary genius. Lifting KJV Bible passages (plagiarism) took little skill. I too wonder about WHO ALL WROTE IT....but there was enough TIME AND TALENT TO DO SO. And why did Joseph Smith try to sell the BOM Copyright in Canada....for money? How do you sell "a Bible"????@@WARDRADIO
100 hundred Tolkiens in 100 years could never equal the Book of Mormon. We know you hate us, but you still have to contend with that Book, Kris. You still have to figure out how some kid wrote that book. Don't ignore it. It came from somewhere. We have an answer, but you only have excuses.
Koran? You omitted that? How many other LONG books have been written? War & Peace?? Dracula?? Considering that 15% of the Book of Mormon is direct KJV BIBLE PLAGIARISM....AND HOW MANY HUNDRED BIBLE NAMES IN IT? 200?? @@WARDRADIO
I think its great to have an understanding of reasons why you believe and dont believe. For me it became a choice to believe. After watch the case for christ movie they can down to a point where they say there can as many reasons to believe as not believe so we get to choose which way we want to go. That is the fundamental truth of the Gospel. Not am I a lutheran of catholic those are distractions. Agency can not be effective with out positive and negative. God valued agency so much that he allowed and even his favorite person to die to preserve it if it is that important to the creator of everything maybe it should be important to us.
Dude! Me too! Swine flu 2015. Almost did me in. I was out for 2 weeks. I was shaking all the time. It was so awful. Finally i relented to asking for a blessing. I knew who to call. This one brother with the Gift of Healing, amazing man. Not the guy youd think. He had long hair and a huge beard and wore a cowboy tie. But hoh man. He was ready. He kicked that sickness right out. Stood up out of bed immediately. Appetite came back. It was totally crazy. It was a flipping miracle
@@WARDRADIOHi Cardon. I was surprised when you mentioned about people raised from the dead at the time of Jesus but today, having the same Priesthood, you never hear of it. I posted a comment you might like to read. I put it on the main feed I think it is called but I'm sure you can find it. I'm 70 years old and love your channel.
When you think how the Church fell into apostasy at the beginning of the 2nd century and was basically taken over by Greek philosophers who interpreted the scriptures according to their own understanding and added heresies like infant baptism and the Trinity, how the Romans married the church to the state and continued to add heresies like indulgences and praying to Mary, how the reformers broke away and added things like sola scriptura and schisming, how can any church claim to be the Church that Jesus established. If, for example, the Baptists claim that they are the unbroken line from the time of Jesus, how can any other church say that they also are the Church that Jesus established withought making a mockery of the Saviour's Church, in that He cannot control or lead that church? Those churches that attack the Church are in no position to do so as they broke away from a church that came before them and both churches cannot be right but they can be wrong. Our critics are in no position to criticise us. Unfortunately, we encourage and enable our enemies, like Pastor Jeff to present our Church as problematic and plagiarisers of the Bible...even though he cannot understand the Bible because he doesnt have the gift of the Holy Ghost to teach him. And, before anyone says that people outside the Church can be directed by the Holy Ghost, i would agree with that but it can only happen when that person is moving towards the truth and not trying to tear it down. If you look at the psychology of defence and attack, defenders have no goal to score into, they only have a goal to defend in a reactionary way. Defenders can never win. They onliy can take the pressure off by kicking into the attackers half, and think they are doing well. I agree that we shouldn't 'apologise' for anything and not be ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We should stop trying to convince others that we are Christian, like them. I don't want to be like them. I was like them once and i dont want to be compared to them any more. Their god is a god of wrath that would punish my poor mother for eternity who lived a relatively righteous life. Our God has perfect love for all His children and our Saviour has paid for the sins of my mother who will accept Him in time and will be free of the consequences of sin and death forever. Stop comparing, stop apologising and stop emboldening people like Jeff.
Given the amount of interests and abilities I have, not to mention how those two things continue to increase, it's hard to believe 1) that I was and accident, and/or 2) that I'm only meant for a life of 100 or so years. I know there's more to me, therefore I know there's more to the context of my existence.
Jacob has identified a key truth - in the military, I did anti-terrorism planning (counter terrorism are the guys who fight there terrorists, anti-terrorists design architecture and facilities to try to stop the terrorists from being effective). The problem with defending is that you have infinite possibilities you have to plan for, while the attacker only has to plan for the one that you havn't defended against. Trying to defend our faith from those who are against us is difficult because no one can know everything and so all the anti-mo has to identify is the potential area you don't know. We can never educate members, bishops, stake presidents enough to convincingly answer every challenge that someone can come up with. Instead, I remember the witness I received. I can't forget it. I know the Lord knows I received it. Regardless of whatever else happens, I can't forget that. All the minutiae about who did what and what someone said is always going to be limited by history - we don't have access to the thoughts and feelings - the context - surrounding the event, and so it's merely an academic excercise. People can try to provide their own context to justify an attach, but it's always just a strawman.
I got in a debate with someone who said they were an Atheist and a good person. First off, how do you determine what a good person is without religion? I told him he was only a good person because he grew up in a world with religion. And that without a higher power threatening punishments people would do whatever they wanted to whoever they wanted. Je would have grown up surrounded by this, and would not have learned anything different, if he survived to adulthood.
I love this video cuz one of my heaviest blue marbles has nothing to do with my beliefs as a CJClds. My backbone of how I know God absolutely exists is because there are verifiable demons in this world and if they exist, that means that an afterlife exists, which means there is more than this life and if there is bad there's also good.
One of the reasons I believe is because of miracles. The miracles I have seen over and over and over again have proved to me beyond any reasonable doubt the coincidence doesn't exist and that God loves his children deeply.
The source for human objective morality are human social instincts. These social instincts are universal across all cultures, peoples, and ethnicities. These social instincts are directly observable, measurable, and able to be catalogued. So, if you agree that humans objectively have eyes, you must also agree that humans objectively have these social instincts. There you go. The objective source for morality in only 4 sentences.
My twin to believe is the Holy Ghost. There's a lot behind that and the comments section isn't the place for that kind of conversation but if I met anyone in person, I'd be more than willing to share it given the proper setting
All of the ‘lies’ of ex-Mormons I was taught as FACTS by a professor at BYU who was an editor for the Joseph Smith Paper Projects and you can find the topics in the Gospel Topics Essays. So please stop diminishing the actual truths that people learn that can be a catalyst for some to leave the church.
The church is making positive claims to which critics put forth valid arguments against those claims. I wouldn't simply dismiss them as "recycled crap that you get on ex-mo subreddit." The CES letter, while not perfect, does effectively highlight some very serious issues that undermine the church's positive claims. To say that you should stop playing apologist and go on the offensive appears to just be dismissive of the critiques being levied. I suspect Jacob promotes this for similar reasons that he spends more time on the intellectual and philosophical model. Mormonism is hard to defend, it's easier to sidestep the issues or ground your belief in a better foundation than what Mormonism can provide.
The problem with playing defense is it allows anti LDS and critics to dictate what topics we end up discussing. Merely refuting a criticism from an anti source doesn’t build faith.
The Savior contended with Nicodemus when he told him in John 3:5 that if he were not born of water and the spirt, Nicodemus would NOT see the kingdom of God.....think about it, Christ was being a bit HARSH, in a loving way.
This is true, but I feel Jacob in his last conversation with Vocab never really went on the offense when he could have . It was mostly defense and playing nice.
This was before Don Bradley's episode debunking the story surrounding about Fanny Alger, the first possible instance of polygamy, and that she was actually 18.
I listened to that debate with Jacob and Bill and I thought Bill totally won the morality debate, but Jacob had Bill going in circles on the free will debate. Jacob does a good job holding his own in debates, but has a few huge blindspots. Some concepts Bill was trying to communicate were just not getting through.
For the absolutely BEST examples of a 19th Century Saint going on the offense check out “Defending Zion: George Q. Cannon and the California Mormon Newspaper Wars of 1857-1857.
I think doubt your doubts means you should hold the doubt to the same scrutiny that people tell you to do with faith. When someone say such and such, you should doubt that just as much as anything else and not just believe the negative things instantly.
My big reason to believe is the simple manifestation of the Holy Ghost's witness in my life. When I was in my darkest times, a scripture or someone will just come to me and reminds me of the love that God has for me. It is spiritual witnesses that are planted firmly in my belief, and although I may not read the scriptures daily, I know them, and I know that they all contain spiritual truths, and I cannot deny it. Even if my soon to be wife denies the Book of Mormon as a Testament of Jesus Christ.
What a mess. The fact that LDS apologists use violent metaphors to describe critiques of the church is telling. They don’t have answers for the criticisms so they think of them as offensive and combative. If the church is true, just answer the questions.
Jacob’s strategy can be summarized like this: You cannot criticize Joseph Smith’s polygamy or say that the Book of Abraham is a fraud unless you have solved morality, the hard problem of consciousness, free will, and the origin of the universe. You know, the hardest questions in philosophy.. Perhaps it’s more likely that the person that claims to know these answers is fooling himself and trying to fool you.
Or maybe these questions are easily solved by the restored Gospel and the proud don't want to accept them..? I guess we end up having to rely on faith either way.
@@lukev483 denying that we don't have to rely on some foundation of faith to intelligently act in the world is a farce. You have to start somewhere and base your belief in something you can't "prove"
@@ItsSnagret yeah I’m sure Socrates, Nietzsche, Kant, Hume and Benthem were just wasting their time on these hard questions because they were too proud. If only they had the mormon church! Then their answers would’ve been solved. Goodness the arrogance is astounding.
Plus this tactic isn’t new! Jacob is adopting presuppositional apologetics. Just look up people like Greg Bahnsen! And the Christian’s over at Apologia Studios! this isn’t new! Just adjust your conversational style with Jacob Hansen and use his presup tactics back on him.
@@latterdayskeptic that's not the argument I was making, but okay. I guess I can be considered arrogant because the worldview I espouse helps to explain the purpose of life, the problem of evil, the source of morality, dark matter and physics, along with solving a myriad of theological, psychological, relational issues better than other competing worldviews. Of course good philosophy is useful as long as it leads to Truth - but starting from false premises will make that pursuit difficult if not impossible. The cosmology of the Restored Church is robust and full of intellectual heft. I guess that can come across as arrogant, but I truly haven't came across better alternatives.
15:35 The "things about Mormonism that are unique..." His answer ends up being the narrative of it's origins. Not doctrine, not teachings, not anything of value for anyone living today. Every religion has it's own origin narrative. If the only thing that mormonism uniquely offers to the world is an origin narrative, why believe in that above any other religions unique origin narrative. This is mormonism according to Jacob. No mormon with ANY authoritative position, would concede what Jacob is conceding here.
I felt the same way. I really wanted to hear what Jacob was saying, but the frequent silly interruptions are frustrating. There are times to be quiet and let others talk.
Actually one of the biggest reasons I believe is the existence of apparent opposites that work together. This is a hallmark of something that legitimately represents a bigger truth. In science, we have this: relativity and quantum mechanics seem to conflict, but they both also seem to describe our reality. Therefore, scientists believe there is bigger, fundamental model that we just haven't full grasped yet. God is, by Christian definition, beyond the wisdom of man. He is a bigger, fundamental reality. You would expect, then, that his religion would have these marriages of apparent opposites. For example, Christianity in general has a marriage of justice and mercy. But the Mormon church has more. For example, Catholics and Orthodox religions focus on priesthood authority, protestants on personal witness. The Mormon church has strong threads of both: a prophet and the individual duty to interpret prophetic and scripture words in the light of personal witness. I find this again and again. Calvinists have determinism, other churches believe in free will, Mormons have a highly developed theology of fore-ordination that creates posits that God essentially ordains you to your maximum potential, but then allows you to become whatever you choose to become. We believe in past and present revelation. We believe you must be baptized, and also God hasn't damned all those who didn't have the opportunity (for most Christians, one or the other folds). We believe in a true church AND that God can and does speak to people outside it; we believe that prophet speaks for God AND that anything lovely or praiseworthy or of good report is worth seeking within or without the church. We believe a man can speak for God AND still be fallible. Clearly, if you believe in the Bible, you believe that people can speak for God and be fallible... but most people don't truly believe both. And you can tell it when they attack Joseph Smith because their assumption is that if they can catch him in anything wrong, he couldn't have been a prophet. I mean, I could give up a church that provides rich examples of these marriages of opposites to believe in nothing, or in a church that only believes in one half if that... but why? It's kind of like looking through a keyhole at a beautiful painting. I could step away from the keyhole because my view is imperfect, but I'm not going to get a better view.
I am loving and learning from your videos (converted 42 years ago with not a single day passing but I give thanks ) may I offer though an objection to corse language occasionally expressed during your show .. the “p” word and the “ f” word … which I know Father in Heaven would not approve of… that aside, I totally appreciate your strength of testimony and knowledge.. God bless..
Every time I have doubts, the first thing I hold on to is Joseph Smith’s inability to have written the Book of Mormon without God. The artistic and mathematical significance of the Book of Mormon is enough for me to hold on to in order to keep going back to the temple and to church. But now I think a better practice is to stay where I’m at, continue researching, and having honest conversations with other people about their beliefs like what Greg and Jeff are doing from Cwic and Hello Saints. If people adopted the principle of talking about beliefs without attacking each other, we would feel a lot less polarized.
Oh it is very obvious how he wrote it. Many books published before the BoM demonstrate direct sources of plagiarism and inspiration used in the BoM. That's not even in question these days.
@@braydenweese1407 Yes. How misguided the mormon way of thinking is. Hey I used to be one of them. They think shooting facts means "I'm pulling out the big guns" but the truth is these are legit arguments that debunk the truth, but never offer a legit answer that is corroborated by evidence. For example they just say 7:20 That the critics "they don't have to answer any questions..." But the reason 'why' they don't have questions is because what questions can you ask someone who is just stating facts back by evidence? Then he states at 7:40 "I don't have to defend anything, I only have to make you defend ideas.." So these guys do the classic non-answer answer. Because the critics DO defend their ideas with FACTS and EVIDENCE. So they are misguided. Please open your mind.
@@GwPoKo How am I uninformed? And yes the View of the Hebrews is one of many sources available to Joseph at the time of writing the BoM. But the big one is the King James Bible to which exact verbatim sections are copied including the errors the bible translators made in the 1600. Why does the Book of Mormon not include the supposed JST translations he made much later? Sermon on the Mount being a good example. Other sources include The Late War between U.S. and Britain, The Golden Pot, and even the Spalding novels. You say I'm uninformed?? Oh sir. You are really uninformed.
Here is my Reason to Believe: I'm an artist. I'm very familiar with the process of creation and what creating things looks like. It's not rocket surgery, but there is a clear difference between the Mona Lisa and a splash painting. There's a clear difference between eroded mountains versus Mount Rushmore. Chaos doesn't create order. I don't care how many monkeys are banging on typewriters for eons upon eons, they will NOT write Shakespear's Hamlet word for word. An explosion at a printing press will NOT create a perfect bound Dictionary. The evidence for a creator is blatantly obvious to me. As an artist I am a creator. I know purposeful creation when I see it.
I am very impressed by the words of the British theologian Austin Farrar in speaking about C. S. Lewis (and quoted by Elder Maxwell on several occasions): “Though argument does not create conviction, lack of it destroys belief. What seems to be proved may not be embraced; but what no one shows that ability to defend is quickly abandoned. Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish.
I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory. 1 Nephi 14:14
If someone believes in God then I always tell them that anyone can be successful in Coming Unto Christ and developing faith in God the Father through the LDS Church just as well if not better than through any other Christian Denomination. If people still chose to leave the Church then you know they are doing so for other reasons.
Are we correct or not? We either proclaim ourselves to be The [only Living and True] Church of JESUS CHRIST or we do not. Ambiguity and vacillation have no place among the People of Christ.
How many people has Jacob baptized as a member missionary? Cardon asked but Jacob didn't answer. I suspect the number is zero. Jacob is stroking Mormon egos, not converting people.
Cardon- “And usually it’s some sort of straw man or lie about church history that’s, at best, 10% true” I like how he talks so much about how faith-damaging church history is lies but never says HOW they are lies. Very persuasive 👍🏽
It usually comes down to perspective and interpretation of history. I just saw two divergent accounts of Trump's rally tonight, both WITH VIDEO as evidence. One showed how packed it was, while the other video panned many empty seats. It was all biased perspective depending on the person making the video.
@@lemjwp1756 I see what you are saying I just never see faith defenders layout all the data/ facts available. They actually benefit in their defenses by leaving things out while “antis” benefit from including as much history as possible. In your trump example, all we would have to do is look at total seats available and total filled seats. No disparity and bias there just data of how filled it was or wasn’t. I’ve only ever heard Cardon and midnight Mormons gloss over church history topics. While “anti” channels go in depth, even if they are technically just as bias. That’s why they are so much more persuasive
I know Joseph Smith is taking care of my boy beyond the veil. I know my older boy is teaching my family beyond the veil because I was virtually handed records of my family to which I was able to send 55 pages of names to the Manti temple. I know Joseph Smith is the prophet of the restoration. He translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God. I have received a testimony, a realization if you will, that these people are real. They really lived. This is a historical record of their lives.
Jacob needs to go back and listen to his conversation with Bill......he apparently didn't listen to him, he put Bill into the atheist box he wanted him to be in.
Mine are hope, the fruits of my faith, and the miracles that continue to show in my life. The fire that is still burning in my heart when I ask for confirmation. The peace that surpasses all understanding. Also, to know that perfection isn't here and now but it's after and forever. This helps me to forgive others/myself and depend completely on Jesus Christ.
A faithful Catholic could have the same scales, so could a Baptist or a Methodist or Presbyterian or a Jehovah's Witness or a Seventh-day Adventist and on and on and on. Members of the LDS Church aren't the only ones with reasons to doubt and reasons to believe their religion.
Absolutely! We hope all of them do! Don't let the Atheists reduce it to a shelf! We hope all our faithful brethren proudly count their reasons for believing!
A couple of big green marbles for me.
When i was 13 my older brother was one week away from returning home from his mission when he got in a car accident that nearly took his life. While my family fasted and prayed for him, I cannot describe how I felt. It shook me and gave me a solid understanding that my brother was willing to give his life to teach the gospel to strangers in Argentina and my parents were of course sad and nervous, but they had faith to accept God's will whatever the outcome and taught us, prepared us to do the same. He survived and although he was in physical therapy for a year are that to learn to walk again, he is currently serving in the United States Army, stationed in Poland right now, still sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ and living what he knows to be right.
Also, a few years later, I had an incredible experience at age 16 when I read the Book of Mormon for the first time all the way through by myself. I don't think I should share what specifically happened, but I can say that there is absolutely no doubt in my mind or heart about the Book of Mormon being true and that Jesus Christ is real. No doubt.
Great discussion! As always
Unless you have seen Jesus or a true Heavenly Messenger.....it's all in your head. Human Emotions are very powerful. Who cannot read The Book of Mormon and not be "moved" by some of the stories in it. King Benjamin is a great example of after reading what he "said" who would not get warm and fuzzies?
@krismurphy7711 I never said I didn't see Him, but it does not matter if I have or haven't. Seeing is not believing. You can know Jesus is real without seeing Him. I know Jesus is real. Many saw Him and didn't believe He was who He said He was. You probably wouldn't know Jesus Christ if he was standing in front of you, Kris, with that understanding of faith. Very sad. We'll keep praying for you, brother.
Also, you don't believe those who say they HAVE seen Him with their own eyes, and dozens of heavenly messengers. They have seen His face and described it, they have heard His voice and described it. You don't believe them, why would you believe me if I said I have?
No matter how many red marbles you try to pour on my scale, they'll never outweigh my green marbles. Ever.
YOU ASSume. You judge me. You don't know me from Adam. SHAME ON YOU!! Don't judge lest ye be judged???@@establishingzion688
The biggest Red Marble is Joseph Smith's STORY about his CLAIMED "First Vision." The FIRST TIME he tells the Story it ends up differing radically from ALL LATER VERSIONS. This is almost certain proof he made it all up. If You or Me had a face to face with GOD THE FATHER AND JESUS CHRIST, we would not forget one or the other were not there in LATER Versions. AND in the 1838 Version of His Story, HE LIED. FLAT OUT LIES. The "scale" in question only needs ONE RED MARBLE to tilt ALL THE WAY, THAT WAY.@@establishingzion688
@@establishingzion688well said!!! 👍
I went to a Jewish Torah study class to see what it was like. What struck me was how, as we read and discussed the scriptures, verses from the New Testament, the BOM, and D&C so readily jumped into my mind. They gave an added richness and a testimony to the scriptures I was studying.
Isn’t it great to be able to have so much to draw from to understand the Plan of Happiness provided us by our Father in Heaven!
Your observations highlight interesting connections between the scriptures. It's worth noting, though, that the New Testament, BOM, and D&C were written when the Old Testament was already established. This means writers could've been influenced by it, intentionally or unintentionally weaving in its themes. So, while there's a sense of divine cohesiveness, there's also the possibility of human-driven continuity between the texts.
My faith crisis was immediately solved by The Book of Mormon. Just reading the words of Jesus in 3 Nephi was enough to outweigh all the reasons to doubt. God reconstructed my faith from there and I have come out stronger than ever. My armor has no shine but it speaks of the battles I've fought. I don't care what people have to say about Joseph Smith because in the end, the Book of Mormon is a true testament of Christ and his status as King and God. JS was chosen to bring it forth and he did so when the world finally accepts it, they will also have to re-evaluate their position on him. That will be fun
Same for me but I had to be broken and humbled to the lowest to make that approach back and it transitioned to Christ and the Book of Mormon. Within days, I was on fire fully prepared to repent and save the world!
@@beau4307 I'm sure our souls met in the mist of darkness. We are the people of Revelation 7: 9-17. Keep running and preaching, brother for you are chosen. The best way to fight the enemy is to know the enemy and that's why God allowed us to face the darkest tribulations.
My profile pic is actually meant to show the pig slop us prodigal sons once did eat. Thank you for answering your call back home. There's no telling how many people you will touch and help turn back to God.
Why?
@@Cleeveable because it confirmed that I wasn't following a false Jesus, or even a distorted version which is something LDS hear constantly and I was actually starting to believe it. Anti-Mormons have a very cunning way of convincing us something isn't biblical even when we are quoting straight from the Bible. If we aren't equipped with wisdom and understanding, or we choose to just go through the motions of church without actually studying the scriptures, we can be easily convinced. The Book of Mormon flat out says over and over that Father, Son, Holy Spirit, are one eternal God. Alma 11:44, Mormon 7:7 are just 2 of many. Even Joseph Smith said it through revelation from God. D&C 20:28 is the only one I can cite for sure but It does not say in purpose and It does not separate them in any way. I'm not saying it's the exact Trinity in the same sense that some Christians believe but what's written is written. It does not contradict The Bible and in fact it completely strengthens it while absolutely confirming Jesus is Lord and savior by him coming out of heaven after his resurrection to visit his other sheep. So no matter what teachings get passed down through our church, we literally have the liberty to refute and reject any of them if they contradict The Word.
Wow what an amazing response! I wish I was able to communicate my thoughts so clearly.
I love how the more I study and learn the more pieces of the “puzzle” of this gospel fits perfectly. There is nothing else that leads me to Christ better than His restored gospel!
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Truth tends to fit together! Common sense is all it takes to realize it.
When I had my little faith crisis I went back to a priesthood blessing I received, I couldn't deny I had been healed.
❤ it
That mindset is why I left Quora. One of my final questions I asked was a long the lines of, "Assume your argument has convinced me that Mormonism is wrong, what do I do now?"
The first answer came within an hour and was basically, "repent, believe in Christ. And join a Biblical Church."
I commented "done, I went back to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Now what?"
This is great!
I know a woman who currently has passed away but decades before she died of old age, she died in the hospital while a faithful priesthood holder was there. He laued his hands on her head and commanded her spirit to come back into her body in the name of Jesus Christ and power of the priesthood. Her spirit was on the other side, heard him speak and realized that her son and husband needed her. She chose to return and her body responded back to life.
When you witness miracles like that first hand, or hear it from reliable sources, it's a really big green marble! I have a few miracles in my life that I told my brother during his faith crisis but unfortunately my experiences weren't enough to buoy him up.
Whenever a criticism is made, I love the question of "compared to what?"
Any criticism is just a comparison. When no comparison is made explicit, then the implicit comparison is some ideal that is probably not being contested.
If we are comparing the history of the church to a heavenly ideal, of course it will fall short. If we compare it to other human institutions, assuming complete transparency, we won't find anything better.
totally agree!
Love this comment.
Exactly
Is the history of the church all that stellar compared to all other human institutions? Just FYI I'm nevermo and not here to tear down or anything, I just find LDS interesting and I enjoy having dialog with those with differing worldviews. I grew up Catholic but went on a determined search for Total Truth that began in 2006 and continues to this day.
@@truthbebold4009 A lot of it depends on how much you trust the narrative told by each institution. Every institution that survives tells its own history in a positive light. Every government has its share of bad history and corruption. And if you look at other churches, he also have their fair share of corruption and self-dealing, including the general acceptance of priestcraft.
What are my green, yellow and blue marbles? There are so many.
Here are three:
~ As a four year old boy I experienced something that could only be described as God's embrace as I sat in an LDS chapel.
~ As the years passed and my understanding of the universe grew, I could listen for hours to my oldest brother as he spoke about astronomy and God.
~ On a particular Sabbath Day, I had a C. S. Lewis experience; I went to my Elder's Quorum lesson out of duty. Before the Elder's Quorum lesson, I logically knew that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. After the lesson, I SPIRITUALLY knew that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God.
After these three life changing experiences and several others, I had personal, customized evidences for the existence of God The Father, His Son, Jesus Christ and The Holy Ghost. I knew that I could fully rely on forgiveness of my sins and so forgiveness became easier to extend. My conclusion is that as I learned how to learn to about Jesus Christ,
I became spiritually aware of His character and I then knew I could trust God to teach me how to forgive, be compassionate, love my enemies etc... When Jesus Christ said that He is The Way, I believe that He truly is THE ONLY WAY that I could learn these things to become like Him.
Everything else related to His Gospel and doctrine are plain and simple now that I spiritually know these characteristics of Jesus Christ. Keeping my marbles stacked high on the right side of the scale takes daily effort.
So was your experience like what Joseph Smith claimed.... An Angel with a Flaming Sword appeared to you?? (Joseph said one did to him telling him to marry all the Young Girls and women he could...in a State where Polygamy was illegal.)
@@krismurphy7711 check your history Poligamy wasn't illegal until the Edmunds act in 1882.
The Edmunds Act, also known as the Edmunds Anti-Polygamy Act of 1882,[1] is a United States federal statute, signed into law on March 23, 1882 by President Chester A. Arthur, declaring polygamy a felony in federal territories, punishable by "a fine of not more than five hundred dollars and by imprisonment for a term of not more than five years"
"Polygamy was against the law in Illinois. An Illinois state law was enacted February 12, 1833:
"Bigamy consists in the having of two wives or two husbands at one and the same time, knowing that the former husband or wife is still alive. If any person or persons within the State, being married, or who shall hereafter marry, do at any time marry any person or persons, the former husband or wife being alive, the person so offended shall, on conviction thereof, be punished by a fine, not exceeding one thousand dollars, and imprisoned in the penitentiary, not exceeding two years." (Revised Laws of Illinois, Vandalia: Greiner & Sherman, 1833, pg. 198-199)."@@TheRegimentalscot
My big reason to believe is the power the Book of Mormon contains when I REALLY read and study it. It goes hard.
Yes! We don't speak up and fight enough. I appreciate Midnight Mormons, Jacob Harris, Cwic Media, True Millenial, Come Back Podcast, ect!
Just in case this wasn't included in your "etc" -> Unshaken with Bro Hal (Jared Halverson) is a MUST. He went to Vanderbilt and his emphasis was on American religious history with a focus on the anti-religion movement therein. He weaves anti-anti-religious content into all his magnificent lessons. The man is a living treasure. I also vote for pretty much anything Anthony Sweat puts out as well. His stuff on the unfolding restoration and temple, for example, are exceptional.
So "The Temple" is not just Joseph Smith's mind ablazing with his "creative thoughts" including that Masonry, which was his new fad, WAS a lost series of rituals that needed to be RESTORED!!!....???@@DaremoDaremo
@@lukev483 Luke, Luke, I am your Father!! -:) -:) Anyhow, the point of this video is the attackers must defend what they believe. Anyone can throw stones. Step up your game -> What do you believe? And why?
You're in a cult within a cult. Thought you should know.
@@gordianknot9595 So, you apparently don't understand how history and archeology work. Gotcha. Anyhow, what do you believe and why?
My reason is eternity and LDS view of life after death. This keeps me going.
clearly you don't understand the gospel at all. Sit down.
@@lukev483 If you truly understand the amount of effort it takes to make one woman happy let alone 2 or 3. you would realize how asinine and shallow your statement is. Especially if you consider the implications. Imagine dealing with PMS not from one person a month but 2 or multiple women and what's worse they all sync. Imagine not having 1 mortgage or households to maintain but 2 or three which was required under the time it was practiced. Imagine having up to 25 kids to all feed, clothe, educate and provide for. If you think the sexual gratification was worth that then you truly have earned the Darwin award. Putting up a bunch of saloons like most of your 19th century western ancestors or multiple revolving door marriages with divorces in the east US and Europe would have been far less exasperating and frustrating. But I'll humor your premise for just a second by just stating methinks thou art a little jealous. Especially in light of todays society and the culture of the last 60 years at least my ancestor ( by the way only one of which was polygamous because only 15-20% of the church ever practiced it and it had to be sanctioned by church leadership. You just couldn't do it) had the decency to marry the Woman and be a father to all the kids till death. I might well ask how many bastard step siblings, divorces or affairs will you find through out your family history. Not to mention that if you are also an advocate of LGB marriage then you lose any standing at all to make such an argument or be dubbed a hypocrite if one variable can change then why not another if there is no religious foundation to marriage and it is all a social construct then as long as they're consenting adults where do you have any moral standing whatsoever other than cultural bias. and by the way I have one wife and even if it were possible I would not want more because any more would drive any sane person crazy.
Possibly my biggest “green marble” is that I do not believe wicked men could have written the scriptures. Too many lives have been changed and even saved through their words to say that they were made up by people trying to swindle others. Whether those people lived in 1830 or 33 A.D.
One of your best conversations ... good job!!!
Jacob is really coming into his own. One day jacob is going to go on tour and just slay the false phophets of baiil. Lol
These past two episodes have been fire
LOL...what a croc. Jacob has admitted that Joseph Smith lied. He admitted the "Adamic Language" was bunk....ANOTHER Smith LIE. If he is going to slay false prophets, he can start with Joseph Smith.
He is on track to be another Snufferite type. He just apostatizes on another part of the spectrum.
Love you guys. So clear and intelligently spoken. Keep it coming!
I love when you get Jacob on the show
❤❤❤❤❤❤ me too
This is true for me as a blk person who plays defense too much and we loose. Playing offense is the way.
I love the phrase: I don’t want to know what you do not believe in- I want to know what you DO believe in. Human experience is about believing in something
Great episode!!
The simple Truths of the gospel just make sense. The plan of salvation makes sense. Traditional family and the love that comes from that and the similitude of that with Heavenly parents and the Plan just makes sense…. And most importantly the confirmation of all of it by the Holy Spirit!!!
Beautiful lesson, Brother Hansen🌞
This is good. Giving me something to chew on. Great content.
Glad you enjoyed, Erica! Share with someone who might need it
Our own church culture has looked down on any member attacking because that is considered "contentious". In fact, we are discouraged from preaching anything other than sunshine and rainbows (literally sometimes) at church.
Personally, I never back down ever. That is why I will never be called as a bishop. I don't play Mr niceguy gospel. I tell the truth and most people don't want to hear it, especially among the membership.
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Niceguy gospel 👍🏽😂
Truth. "That is why I will never be called as a bishop." So, if you and I continue to be "obnoxious" (a name I have earned) at church we won't be called to be a bishop? Let's march on with truth!!!
@@lukev483 lol I love how people pull this out when they have an idea challenged. Nelson also said “…I am not talking about “peace at any price”.”
BOM teaches this very clearly. We have our muskets on standby 😂
We are commanded to be honest, we are commanded to be kind and love one another. There is a way to do both. We are not commanded to be a door mat. The Lord hands us difficult situations perhaps so we can learn about how to set healthy boundaries. How do you be child like without being childish 🤔 by standing your ground and still being tactful? How do you remain confident while not being prideful? 🤔 Stand up for what you know is true while remaining open minded/open hearted to expanding that knowledge.
I once sat in an Elders Quorum while an obnoxious know it all sort kept interrupting the lesson to show us how smart he was. Finally he was interrupted by a furious member of the Quorum who called him out on some false doctrine he was spewing. With a wailing and gnashing of teeth, this brother told off the obnoxious one and left the room. I don't believe either man acted in a way that was Christ-like. None of us are perfect, is it so hard to cut each other some slack?
I stand on my faith & testimony boldly 💪
@5:00 this is basically exactly how I took my conversations with my evangelical friends in Indiana and I know now how bad that was for me to do over and over again, but at the time I thought that was my best course of action. To just answer their questions, criticisms, etc. and try to do so with as much patience and research as possible.
I love the alternative perspective Jacob is sharing here with an emphasis on still being productive and basically applying Pres. Nelson's advice.
10 years ago I sat in my bishops office and felt the cleansing power of the atonement after the spirit guided me on the need to make an appointment with him. I left his office on fire, with a desire to do as much temple work for those who've passed on that I can. It's been life changing and has grounded me. I've had so many experiences with family history work and taking their names to the temple, the veil has become so thin. I've gone to the temple with heavy questions about church history and Joseph Smith after listening to family members who've left the church and have received answers in ways I will never forget and I've never doubted the character of Joseph Smith again, so because of the atonement of the Savior and weekly temple attendance my roots have gone deeper. There really is strength that comes from the temple, personal revelation becomes clearer and obedience becomes joyful.
PLEASE SHARE some of you "answers" about Joseph Smith. Since I found out about his fraudulent moneydigging....and his marrying YOUNG GIRLS (and keeping it from Emma and The Church...and publicly lying about it)...as well as ALL HIS OTHER BS, I've completely done a 180 on him. I was born and raised and indoctrinated...and now, I see it all so clearly. IF YOU REALLY HAVE ANSWERS TO ALL THIS "CRAP"....PLEASE SHARE.
@@lukev483 Don't study the Bible to closely or you might get creeped out by other Christians. Because you will see so much of the in their that you find in the temple.
Church life has been difficult for me. My experience in the church has been net negative. But the restored gospel has been a massive blessing and my experience with the gospel has been a massive net positive
Yeah we can understand that. It might have been a net positive for your experience, but it has also probably built your patience and your capacity to forgive. You have probably learned to serve and help a lot of people along the way. Christ does not promise a vacation in this life, but glory in. In the life to come.
But we get it dude. Hang out here with us.
What the Plan of Salvation covers is my reason for belief and to doubt my doubts.
my reason to beleive is the amount of testimony from the spirit in my first year of contact with the church ,the bom,the elders, angels ,priesthood ,revelation is beyond comparaison with 25 years as a catho.
YOU'VE SEEN ANGELS?!?!?!
yes ,in wash dc temple .@@krismurphy7711
My reasons to believe have nothing to do with anything using your mind or intellectual discussions. Rather it has to do with actual experiences with the Holy Spirit. I have been healed by members of the priesthood, well rather buy God working through the priesthood, and that's a real thing that actually happened. I was healed of being transgender by the prayers of a woman with the most beautiful soul of anyone I've ever known. That is a very nearly impossible thing to have, happen, yet it did. The Holy Spirit is really with me all the time and that is a fact because you can sense His presence and the love of God he bestows upon you. There's a lot more to my testimony, but it all relates to things have actually happened.Intellectual discourse has its place, but actual experiences are more compelling!
The holy spirit of god has confirmed to me beyond all doubt Joseph Smith was an evil man and the church is anything but "true."
Argument defeated!
God bless you.
@@itsdutchintime1907 Thanks man, I appreciate it. I'll take gods blessings whenever they come!
My reasons to believe: I've had experiences with God.
No one can take that away. That's as valid and glorious as any other reason.
For me, the Book of Mormon is a massive boulder on my scales. As Holland said, I have to crawl around or under or over that boulder before I leave the church. Haven’t been able to do it yet. Doubt I ever will.
MY BIG REASON to believe => I had a spiritual conversion at age 7 (months before my baptism) that Joseph saw God the Father and his Son in the Sacred Grove and it has DOMINATED my life since....it is almost as if I personally had my own first vision and as Joseph Smith stated he could NOT deny it.....I likewise CANNOT deny it.
I like the analogies, well done! The defensive side is truly fruitless and exhausting haha. Jesus also set a good example in this regard.
Really enjoyed this one and the metaphor of the scale.
In 1850 John Taylor, who was an apostle at the time, was doing missionary work in France and he was challenged to a debate by three protestant ministers. He accepted and debated them for three nights. Things have definitely changed since then. Could you imagine one of the twelve doing that today?
Holland would have them begging for mercy.
@@WARDRADIOHolland is awesome
My testimony is when i have one reason to doubt i have a thousand reason to believe
Regardless the darts thrown by the world at my faith, I can always find strength in the incredible organization and consistency found in the Church all over the world. No other religion can compare. The more I discover about the layers of order the more I am amazed. God is a God of Order. His church would follow that pattern. God takes this huge fault filled volunteer army of disciples and created world wide church of order. How could it not be true? That and of course the tender relationship I have with the same God. I stand all amazed!
Thank you for the episode! I believe because of the spiritual witnesses I’ve had regarding The Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, Jesus Christ, Heavenly Father and more. Obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel have guided me in receiving those witnesses. I’m so grateful for them and hope all men, women, and children will experience the same.
One big green marble for me is how the Book of Mormon and our other restoration scriptures makes the Bible come even more alive. They come together like two sides of a zipper.
My personal experiences with the Saviour in my study of the Book of Mormon and the scriptures in general, including conference talks, are my principles reasons for believing. I mean, really, I have a sure knowledge of many of those things, and because Jesus visits me in my worship it pretty much solidifies me in staying. All of the people who would try to sway me away from the gospel and the church have never come close to even touching those things. They usually cite things that are garbage, completely trivial, or have to do with someone else's accountability (which is irrelevant to me). Also, just about every time a "doubt" issue arises for me, when I humble myself by saying that I don't know the answer to this, but I know that God does, His Spirit enters my mind and heart and either teaches me about it or gives me peace sufficient to dissipate any doubt or worry.
This is actually quite beautiful, Mark. Dont let anyone make you feel bad or stupid or sentimental because you are sensitive to the Spirit like that. It's awesome
I have the same "feelings" when I watch portrayals of Christ on TV.... Jesus the Christ.... Greatest Story Ever Told.... etc etc etc
@@krismurphy7711that’s because it’s true. The spirit testifies of truth and those movies portray the truth of Christ’s mission and atonement. I would expect people to have those feelings.
@@tacotuesday1960 That’s convenient. Everyone who gets a warm and fuzzy …it is The Spirit? War movie heroes? Good endings?? Character overcomes all?? Lol. Human Emotion vs Spirit?!?!
@@krismurphy7711 all those things are types and shadows of Christ. The hero’s journey is a type and shadow of our journey that we go through here on earth. We resonate with those stories because deep inside there’s something that resonates with our soul as more than true. Your spirit knows many things that you aren’t fully aware of. That’s why spirituality is so important and why almost every civilization has embraced the spiritual. It’s a part of our being.
The Prophet Joseph Smith said this about the persistence of wicked men:
"The enemies of this people will never get weary of their persecution against the Church, until they are overcome. I expect they will array everything against me that is in their power to control, and that we shall have a long and tremendous warfare. He that will war the true Christian warfare against the corruptions of these last days will have wicked men and angels of devils, and all the infernal powers of darkness continually arrayed against him. When wicked and corrupt men oppose, it is a criterion to judge if a man is warring the Christian warfare. When all men speak evil of you falsely, blessed are ye. Shall a man be considered bad, when men speak evil of him? No. If a man stands and opposes the world of sin, he may expect to have all wicked and corrupt spirits arrayed against him. But it will be but a little season, and all these afflictions will be turned away from us, inasmuch as we are faithful, and are not overcome by these evils. By seeing the blessings of the endowment rolling on, and the kingdom increasing and spreading from sea to sea, we shall rejoice that we were not overcome by these foolish things."
Either believe in an infinite number of happy accidents or believe in a Creator. It takes more faith to believe in the accidents.
My biggest reason to believe is the profound transformation that the Atonement of Jesus Christ has brought into my life
The type of offense we must take is to love, share, and invite, so that the Spirit can do His work. The Book of Mormon shows why physically defending was always superior to being in the offense like the Lamanites. We don't need to shatter every argument, we need to focus on the humble and ready to learn, who are open to more light.
I think each member is being blessed, if they weren’t they would not be active. I became a member as an adult, it may be easier for me to recognize blessings coming to myself or others. I hear ex-LDS talk about how the church blessed their youth so greatly, they seem to be saying they don’t need God’s help anymore, right?
I believe because the power of God is in my life making changes I cannot make in my own. This happened when I decided to be “All in” as it were and promised to always doubt my doubts. If someone says the powers isn’t from Jesus but the devil I will tell them I worship Jesus and point them to all the same arguments they make for the over own apologia that mean Christ was Christ and not an evil wizard.
1:17 “like a musket..” 😂😂😂
I had a faith crisis in my early 20’s (20 years ago now). I made my way back after 9 years of inactivity and unbelief. My belief in the Gospel, Christ, The Restoration and The Book of Mormon is based on the personal witnesses I have received of truthfulness of those things.
This is awesome. This is so cool to hear. Nice work finding your way back.
Yeah, no matter what I think about this ir that, the simple fact remains that the BoM is impossible. No one could have just written that book. It's a miracle. I received my witness of it and that will always be my foundation.
@@WARDRADIO yes, I know it’s true and God knows I know it is. All other temporal evidences are icing on the cake because of the witness given to me by the Holy Spirit of Promise and my relationship with Christ. I can’t be “talked out” of those because there’s no denying truth.
What about the Koran? What about Tolkein?? "It came to pass" is not the sign of literary genius. Lifting KJV Bible passages (plagiarism) took little skill. I too wonder about WHO ALL WROTE IT....but there was enough TIME AND TALENT TO DO SO. And why did Joseph Smith try to sell the BOM Copyright in Canada....for money? How do you sell "a Bible"????@@WARDRADIO
100 hundred Tolkiens in 100 years could never equal the Book of Mormon. We know you hate us, but you still have to contend with that Book, Kris. You still have to figure out how some kid wrote that book. Don't ignore it. It came from somewhere. We have an answer, but you only have excuses.
Koran? You omitted that? How many other LONG books have been written? War & Peace?? Dracula?? Considering that 15% of the Book of Mormon is direct KJV BIBLE PLAGIARISM....AND HOW MANY HUNDRED BIBLE NAMES IN IT? 200?? @@WARDRADIO
I think its great to have an understanding of reasons why you believe and dont believe. For me it became a choice to believe. After watch the case for christ movie they can down to a point where they say there can as many reasons to believe as not believe so we get to choose which way we want to go. That is the fundamental truth of the Gospel. Not am I a lutheran of catholic those are distractions. Agency can not be effective with out positive and negative. God valued agency so much that he allowed and even his favorite person to die to preserve it if it is that important to the creator of everything maybe it should be important to us.
Yeah a big green marble for me is being healed miraculously by the power of the priesthood. I don't care what's said, I'm a lifer.
Dude! Me too! Swine flu 2015. Almost did me in. I was out for 2 weeks. I was shaking all the time. It was so awful. Finally i relented to asking for a blessing. I knew who to call. This one brother with the Gift of Healing, amazing man. Not the guy youd think. He had long hair and a huge beard and wore a cowboy tie. But hoh man. He was ready. He kicked that sickness right out. Stood up out of bed immediately. Appetite came back. It was totally crazy. It was a flipping miracle
@@WARDRADIO exactly, mine was a my 3rd gallbladder attack, and the person that healed me was my wife.
Marry her twice.
Marry her twice.
@@WARDRADIOHi Cardon. I was surprised when you mentioned about people raised from the dead at the time of Jesus but today, having the same Priesthood, you never hear of it. I posted a comment you might like to read. I put it on the main feed I think it is called but I'm sure you can find it. I'm 70 years old and love your channel.
When you think how the Church fell into apostasy at the beginning of the 2nd century and was basically taken over by Greek philosophers who interpreted the scriptures according to their own understanding and added heresies like infant baptism and the Trinity, how the Romans married the church to the state and continued to add heresies like indulgences and praying to Mary, how the reformers broke away and added things like sola scriptura and schisming, how can any church claim to be the Church that Jesus established. If, for example, the Baptists claim that they are the unbroken line from the time of Jesus, how can any other church say that they also are the Church that Jesus established withought making a mockery of the Saviour's Church, in that He cannot control or lead that church?
Those churches that attack the Church are in no position to do so as they broke away from a church that came before them and both churches cannot be right but they can be wrong. Our critics are in no position to criticise us. Unfortunately, we encourage and enable our enemies, like Pastor Jeff to present our Church as problematic and plagiarisers of the Bible...even though he cannot understand the Bible because he doesnt have the gift of the Holy Ghost to teach him. And, before anyone says that people outside the Church can be directed by the Holy Ghost, i would agree with that but it can only happen when that person is moving towards the truth and not trying to tear it down.
If you look at the psychology of defence and attack, defenders have no goal to score into, they only have a goal to defend in a reactionary way. Defenders can never win. They onliy can take the pressure off by kicking into the attackers half, and think they are doing well. I agree that we shouldn't 'apologise' for anything and not be ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
We should stop trying to convince others that we are Christian, like them. I don't want to be like them. I was like them once and i dont want to be compared to them any more. Their god is a god of wrath that would punish my poor mother for eternity who lived a relatively righteous life. Our God has perfect love for all His children and our Saviour has paid for the sins of my mother who will accept Him in time and will be free of the consequences of sin and death forever. Stop comparing, stop apologising and stop emboldening people like Jeff.
Given the amount of interests and abilities I have, not to mention how those two things continue to increase, it's hard to believe 1) that I was and accident, and/or 2) that I'm only meant for a life of 100 or so years. I know there's more to me, therefore I know there's more to the context of my existence.
This reminded me of Caligula going to war with the sea. Unfortunately for the delusional, reality always wins in the end.
Holy snap Jacob, what a beautiful testimony at the end, I felt the spirit very strong confirm that God is real. Thanks man ❤️
😂
Jacob has identified a key truth - in the military, I did anti-terrorism planning (counter terrorism are the guys who fight there terrorists, anti-terrorists design architecture and facilities to try to stop the terrorists from being effective). The problem with defending is that you have infinite possibilities you have to plan for, while the attacker only has to plan for the one that you havn't defended against.
Trying to defend our faith from those who are against us is difficult because no one can know everything and so all the anti-mo has to identify is the potential area you don't know. We can never educate members, bishops, stake presidents enough to convincingly answer every challenge that someone can come up with.
Instead, I remember the witness I received. I can't forget it. I know the Lord knows I received it. Regardless of whatever else happens, I can't forget that. All the minutiae about who did what and what someone said is always going to be limited by history - we don't have access to the thoughts and feelings - the context - surrounding the event, and so it's merely an academic excercise. People can try to provide their own context to justify an attach, but it's always just a strawman.
I’ve always wanted to create a platform to attack all the critics just need the team to do it.
I got in a debate with someone who said they were an Atheist and a good person. First off, how do you determine what a good person is without religion? I told him he was only a good person because he grew up in a world with religion. And that without a higher power threatening punishments people would do whatever they wanted to whoever they wanted. Je would have grown up surrounded by this, and would not have learned anything different, if he survived to adulthood.
I love this video cuz one of my heaviest blue marbles has nothing to do with my beliefs as a CJClds. My backbone of how I know God absolutely exists is because there are verifiable demons in this world and if they exist, that means that an afterlife exists, which means there is more than this life and if there is bad there's also good.
The implication that progmos don’t know base10 mathematics cracked me up
One of the reasons I believe is because of miracles. The miracles I have seen over and over and over again have proved to me beyond any reasonable doubt the coincidence doesn't exist and that God loves his children deeply.
The source for human objective morality are human social instincts. These social instincts are universal across all cultures, peoples, and ethnicities. These social instincts are directly observable, measurable, and able to be catalogued. So, if you agree that humans objectively have eyes, you must also agree that humans objectively have these social instincts.
There you go. The objective source for morality in only 4 sentences.
My twin to believe is the Holy Ghost. There's a lot behind that and the comments section isn't the place for that kind of conversation but if I met anyone in person, I'd be more than willing to share it given the proper setting
All of the ‘lies’ of ex-Mormons I was taught as FACTS by a professor at BYU who was an editor for the Joseph Smith Paper Projects and you can find the topics in the Gospel Topics Essays. So please stop diminishing the actual truths that people learn that can be a catalyst for some to leave the church.
The church is making positive claims to which critics put forth valid arguments against those claims. I wouldn't simply dismiss them as "recycled crap that you get on ex-mo subreddit." The CES letter, while not perfect, does effectively highlight some very serious issues that undermine the church's positive claims. To say that you should stop playing apologist and go on the offensive appears to just be dismissive of the critiques being levied. I suspect Jacob promotes this for similar reasons that he spends more time on the intellectual and philosophical model. Mormonism is hard to defend, it's easier to sidestep the issues or ground your belief in a better foundation than what Mormonism can provide.
The problem with playing defense is it allows anti LDS and critics to dictate what topics we end up discussing. Merely refuting a criticism from an anti source doesn’t build faith.
The Savior contended with Nicodemus when he told him in John 3:5 that if he were not born of water and the spirt, Nicodemus would NOT see the kingdom of God.....think about it, Christ was being a bit HARSH, in a loving way.
This is true, but I feel Jacob in his last conversation with Vocab never really went on the offense when he could have . It was mostly defense and playing nice.
I think he was being respectful and forging a relationship. I wouldn't be surprised if they do more of a formal debate going forward.
“I don’t like shelf. It’s a bad analogy,” says the apologist who refuses to see things the way that ExMormons see things.
This was before Don Bradley's episode debunking the story surrounding about Fanny Alger, the first possible instance of polygamy, and that she was actually 18.
I listened to that debate with Jacob and Bill and I thought Bill totally won the morality debate, but Jacob had Bill going in circles on the free will debate. Jacob does a good job holding his own in debates, but has a few huge blindspots. Some concepts Bill was trying to communicate were just not getting through.
For the absolutely BEST examples of a 19th Century Saint going on the offense check out “Defending Zion: George Q. Cannon and the California Mormon Newspaper Wars of 1857-1857.
But the prophet says no contention if we choose to say ow yes we should also be on the defense well you know
I think doubt your doubts means you should hold the doubt to the same scrutiny that people tell you to do with faith. When someone say such and such, you should doubt that just as much as anything else and not just believe the negative things instantly.
My big reason to believe is the simple manifestation of the Holy Ghost's witness in my life. When I was in my darkest times, a scripture or someone will just come to me and reminds me of the love that God has for me.
It is spiritual witnesses that are planted firmly in my belief, and although I may not read the scriptures daily, I know them, and I know that they all contain spiritual truths, and I cannot deny it. Even if my soon to be wife denies the Book of Mormon as a Testament of Jesus Christ.
What a mess. The fact that LDS apologists use violent metaphors to describe critiques of the church is telling. They don’t have answers for the criticisms so they think of them as offensive and combative. If the church is true, just answer the questions.
Yes, like if only they had a whole UA-cam channel with 65 "debunking" videos on it ....
Yes, but where would you find something like that?
@@WARDRADIO but there are 67 issues........
Jacob’s strategy can be summarized like this:
You cannot criticize Joseph Smith’s polygamy or say that the Book of Abraham is a fraud unless you have solved morality, the hard problem of consciousness, free will, and the origin of the universe. You know, the hardest questions in philosophy..
Perhaps it’s more likely that the person that claims to know these answers is fooling himself and trying to fool you.
Or maybe these questions are easily solved by the restored Gospel and the proud don't want to accept them..? I guess we end up having to rely on faith either way.
@@lukev483 denying that we don't have to rely on some foundation of faith to intelligently act in the world is a farce. You have to start somewhere and base your belief in something you can't "prove"
@@ItsSnagret yeah I’m sure Socrates, Nietzsche, Kant, Hume and Benthem were just wasting their time on these hard questions because they were too proud. If only they had the mormon church! Then their answers would’ve been solved. Goodness the arrogance is astounding.
Plus this tactic isn’t new! Jacob is adopting presuppositional apologetics. Just look up people like Greg Bahnsen! And the Christian’s over at Apologia Studios! this isn’t new! Just adjust your conversational style with Jacob Hansen and use his presup tactics back on him.
@@latterdayskeptic that's not the argument I was making, but okay. I guess I can be considered arrogant because the worldview I espouse helps to explain the purpose of life, the problem of evil, the source of morality, dark matter and physics, along with solving a myriad of theological, psychological, relational issues better than other competing worldviews. Of course good philosophy is useful as long as it leads to Truth - but starting from false premises will make that pursuit difficult if not impossible. The cosmology of the Restored Church is robust and full of intellectual heft. I guess that can come across as arrogant, but I truly haven't came across better alternatives.
15:35 The "things about Mormonism that are unique..." His answer ends up being the narrative of it's origins. Not doctrine, not teachings, not anything of value for anyone living today. Every religion has it's own origin narrative. If the only thing that mormonism uniquely offers to the world is an origin narrative, why believe in that above any other religions unique origin narrative.
This is mormonism according to Jacob. No mormon with ANY authoritative position, would concede what Jacob is conceding here.
Seems like you got alot to say. Maybe try and get on the show to discuss
@@troncarter6834 Not up to me
Jacob, way to stay on track while Cardon seems to side rail the convo every 15 seconds with bad jokes.
😂
I felt the same way. I really wanted to hear what Jacob was saying, but the frequent silly interruptions are frustrating. There are times to be quiet and let others talk.
🤙
Actually one of the biggest reasons I believe is the existence of apparent opposites that work together. This is a hallmark of something that legitimately represents a bigger truth. In science, we have this: relativity and quantum mechanics seem to conflict, but they both also seem to describe our reality. Therefore, scientists believe there is bigger, fundamental model that we just haven't full grasped yet.
God is, by Christian definition, beyond the wisdom of man. He is a bigger, fundamental reality. You would expect, then, that his religion would have these marriages of apparent opposites. For example, Christianity in general has a marriage of justice and mercy. But the Mormon church has more. For example, Catholics and Orthodox religions focus on priesthood authority, protestants on personal witness. The Mormon church has strong threads of both: a prophet and the individual duty to interpret prophetic and scripture words in the light of personal witness.
I find this again and again. Calvinists have determinism, other churches believe in free will, Mormons have a highly developed theology of fore-ordination that creates posits that God essentially ordains you to your maximum potential, but then allows you to become whatever you choose to become. We believe in past and present revelation. We believe you must be baptized, and also God hasn't damned all those who didn't have the opportunity (for most Christians, one or the other folds). We believe in a true church AND that God can and does speak to people outside it; we believe that prophet speaks for God AND that anything lovely or praiseworthy or of good report is worth seeking within or without the church.
We believe a man can speak for God AND still be fallible. Clearly, if you believe in the Bible, you believe that people can speak for God and be fallible... but most people don't truly believe both. And you can tell it when they attack Joseph Smith because their assumption is that if they can catch him in anything wrong, he couldn't have been a prophet.
I mean, I could give up a church that provides rich examples of these marriages of opposites to believe in nothing, or in a church that only believes in one half if that... but why? It's kind of like looking through a keyhole at a beautiful painting. I could step away from the keyhole because my view is imperfect, but I'm not going to get a better view.
I am loving and learning from your videos (converted 42 years ago with not a single day passing but I give thanks ) may I offer though an objection to corse language occasionally expressed during your show .. the “p” word and the “ f” word … which I know Father in Heaven would not approve of… that aside, I totally appreciate your strength of testimony and knowledge.. God bless..
Every time I have doubts, the first thing I hold on to is Joseph Smith’s inability to have written the Book of Mormon without God. The artistic and mathematical significance of the Book of Mormon is enough for me to hold on to in order to keep going back to the temple and to church.
But now I think a better practice is to stay where I’m at, continue researching, and having honest conversations with other people about their beliefs like what Greg and Jeff are doing from Cwic and Hello Saints. If people adopted the principle of talking about beliefs without attacking each other, we would feel a lot less polarized.
Oh it is very obvious how he wrote it. Many books published before the BoM demonstrate direct sources of plagiarism and inspiration used in the BoM. That's not even in question these days.
@@outlawedmedia4336 Did nothing stand out to you in this video?
@@braydenweese1407 Yes. How misguided the mormon way of thinking is. Hey I used to be one of them. They think shooting facts means "I'm pulling out the big guns" but the truth is these are legit arguments that debunk the truth, but never offer a legit answer that is corroborated by evidence. For example they just say 7:20 That the critics "they don't have to answer any questions..." But the reason 'why' they don't have questions is because what questions can you ask someone who is just stating facts back by evidence? Then he states at 7:40 "I don't have to defend anything, I only have to make you defend ideas.." So these guys do the classic non-answer answer. Because the critics DO defend their ideas with FACTS and EVIDENCE. So they are misguided. Please open your mind.
@@outlawedmedia4336 Are you talking about the View of the Hebrews? LOL I think your statement is a little bit uninformed
@@GwPoKo How am I uninformed? And yes the View of the Hebrews is one of many sources available to Joseph at the time of writing the BoM. But the big one is the King James Bible to which exact verbatim sections are copied including the errors the bible translators made in the 1600. Why does the Book of Mormon not include the supposed JST translations he made much later? Sermon on the Mount being a good example. Other sources include The Late War between U.S. and Britain, The Golden Pot, and even the Spalding novels.
You say I'm uninformed?? Oh sir. You are really uninformed.
Here is my Reason to Believe:
I'm an artist. I'm very familiar with the process of creation and what creating things looks like. It's not rocket surgery, but there is a clear difference between the Mona Lisa and a splash painting. There's a clear difference between eroded mountains versus Mount Rushmore. Chaos doesn't create order. I don't care how many monkeys are banging on typewriters for eons upon eons, they will NOT write Shakespear's Hamlet word for word. An explosion at a printing press will NOT create a perfect bound Dictionary.
The evidence for a creator is blatantly obvious to me. As an artist I am a creator. I know purposeful creation when I see it.
I am very impressed by the words of the British theologian Austin Farrar in speaking about C. S. Lewis (and quoted by Elder Maxwell on several occasions): “Though argument does not create conviction, lack of it destroys belief. What seems to be proved may not be embraced; but what no one shows that ability to defend is quickly abandoned. Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish.
16:30 Algebra does not require base ten arithmetic. You can derive arithmetic using set theory, which underlies algebra.
Always ask to discuss things you agree on first (do you believe God, in Christ etc). Then those other criticisms dont really matter in my daily life.
I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory. 1 Nephi 14:14
If someone believes in God then I always tell them that anyone can be successful in Coming Unto Christ and developing faith in God the Father through the LDS Church just as well if not better than through any other Christian Denomination. If people still chose to leave the Church then you know they are doing so for other reasons.
All about controlling the "frame".
17:50 JACOB...YOU ADMITTED ON BILL REEL' S SHOW THAT JOSEPH SMITH COULD NOT SPEAK "ADAMIC LANGUAGE".... that he was making it up?
Are we correct or not? We either proclaim ourselves to be The [only Living and True] Church of JESUS CHRIST or we do not.
Ambiguity and vacillation have no place among the People of Christ.
How many people has Jacob baptized as a member missionary? Cardon asked but Jacob didn't answer.
I suspect the number is zero. Jacob is stroking Mormon egos, not converting people.
I’d be curious to know how many he’s helped on their exit, too.
Cardon-
“And usually it’s some sort of straw man or lie about church history that’s, at best, 10% true”
I like how he talks so much about how faith-damaging church history is lies but never says HOW they are lies. Very persuasive 👍🏽
It usually comes down to perspective and interpretation of history. I just saw two divergent accounts of Trump's rally tonight, both WITH VIDEO as evidence. One showed how packed it was, while the other video panned many empty seats. It was all biased perspective depending on the person making the video.
@@lemjwp1756 I see what you are saying I just never see faith defenders layout all the data/ facts available. They actually benefit in their defenses by leaving things out while “antis” benefit from including as much history as possible.
In your trump example, all we would have to do is look at total seats available and total filled seats. No disparity and bias there just data of how filled it was or wasn’t.
I’ve only ever heard Cardon and midnight Mormons gloss over church history topics. While “anti” channels go in depth, even if they are technically just as bias. That’s why they are so much more persuasive
I know Joseph Smith is taking care of my boy beyond the veil. I know my older boy is teaching my family beyond the veil because I was virtually handed records of my family to which I was able to send 55 pages of names to the Manti temple. I know Joseph Smith is the prophet of the restoration. He translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God. I have received a testimony, a realization if you will, that these people are real. They really lived. This is a historical record of their lives.
I am trying to be like Jesus... He did not like the people at church either...
Jacob needs to go back and listen to his conversation with Bill......he apparently didn't listen to him, he put Bill into the atheist box he wanted him to be in.
Mobb Deep said there's no such thing as halfway crooks. I feel the same way about members. Ya either in or ya out haha..
Mine are hope, the fruits of my faith, and the miracles that continue to show in my life. The fire that is still burning in my heart when I ask for confirmation. The peace that surpasses all understanding. Also, to know that perfection isn't here and now but it's after and forever. This helps me to forgive others/myself and depend completely on Jesus Christ.
No peacemaking with evil, these saints are re-born
A faithful Catholic could have the same scales, so could a Baptist or a Methodist or Presbyterian or a Jehovah's Witness or a Seventh-day Adventist and on and on and on. Members of the LDS Church aren't the only ones with reasons to doubt and reasons to believe their religion.
Absolutely! We hope all of them do! Don't let the Atheists reduce it to a shelf! We hope all our faithful brethren proudly count their reasons for believing!