How dare you to imply that those existed and AR family isn't the only weapon of NATO forces that competed with AK family?! It's as if you're a sane person;)
@@thatoneengineer5525 They already did the M1A in a previous dust test (one of the very early videos on the channel) and it jammed up after a single round every single time.
@@worldfamousgi86 They did, but it was a very different test. Also their M1A was in an aftermarket stock, and they left the selector switch cutout open. I wouldn't mind seeing them do this test with an M1A/M-14 that is in a USGI stock, and has the cutout plugged like it should be.
Well, if they're going to test the FAL platform, it had better be the Commonwealth L1A1 Australian with its enlarged sand grooves. The whole purpose of that specific modification was to remediate the failures encountered while training in the Simpson. But for even more interesting comparison, the Israeli FAL should also be tested since it's considered the worst the platform has to offer. So test the best and the worst FAL variants against the practically standardized G3.
Little anecdote here. I used to HATE the AR platform and M9 for unreliability. It was pretty much for reasons you said: service rifles/pistols. Qualifying in BMT as a young Airman, we were given franken-16’s, which were a hodge-podge of M16 and M16A1/A2 lowers and M16, A1, and A2 uppers that we’re barely kept in running order and fed no-lead frangible ammo. The rifle I got had a 16 lower with “auto” hand stamped out with X’s and “burst” hand stamped under it, and an A1 upper, however the hand guards had broken and been replaced with A2 style. Good news was it had the old school lefty sheet metal brass hood. Past round 10, however it was a bolt action. Fast forward to Afghanistan, 2012, we were again issued tired, Reagan-era A2’s as we weren’t front-line troops (aircraft mechanics). At least we were given ammo, as the ANA had been shooting about as many Americans as they had their own countrymen. I cleaned my rifle as often as I could and it was never abused (just worn around base and on the ramp), however it was rare that I could drop the bolt and chamber a round after a day or two. A dust storm would make it hard to even open the rifle without mortaring it. Why? We were only given CLP to maintain the rifles, and as much as I tried to dry out every cranny and never use the CLP after the armory-mandated first cleaning, the thing remained a magnet. Combine that with a buffer spring as tired as the Russian “hairdressers” at the boardwalk, the thing was more useful as a brick. My opinion didn’t get better, as each recurring qual was done on equally tired A2s with leadless ammo, until the Camp Bastion disaster. Marines got rekt by Taliban on the flightline due to lack of security and complacent training for non-combat troops, losing a good chunk of Harriers and some good guys. If it happened to Marines, we all figured we were screwed. After some well-deserved peepee smacking by the top levels of the Pentagon, the AF dumped all the trashed A2s and standardized the M4/M68 combo, changed qualification to a tactical course of fire, and started using proper ball ammo for quals. My opinion of the M9/92 was equally bad for very similar reasons. Every encounter with the service pistol, it was trashed and unreliable. Fast forward a few years, and my two go-to guns are a Colt 6920/Aimpoint PRO and a 92FS. What changed? My guns aren’t 30 year old service weapons abused by generations of teenagers. Accepting that EVERY design will be trash when placed in military service allows you to less critical of any of them. Give it ten years, and the P320 will be widely hated.
1990: "Those 1911's worked no matter what! No problems! Nothing! Best handguns evar! These new 9mm sissy pistols are crap, break, and choke!" 2020: "Those Beretta 92's worked no matter what! These new SIG pistols jam and choke!" 2050: "Those SIG P320's worked no matter what! These new pistols just jam and choke!" 2080: "Man, those old Plasma Pistols, man..." 2180: "Those old Phase Pistols, man..." 2280: "Those old Type 1 Phasers, man..." Moral of the story: Soldiers will always complain, they will abuse their gear, and they will be fed plenty of propaganda from old salts that revered the olderweapons they used, because the ones that lived long enough to tell them about it, were the ones with well-maintained weapons. Speaking of, I remember someone saying years ago, that with the AR15/M16's reputation, combined with how the military keeps demanding "near 100% improvements" on new rifles, we're going to be hearing from future generations of Marines complaining about how their M4A9's are jamming on Martian dust.
I agree I started life in the Marines with an A1 than transitioned to A2 at one unit I checked into the A2 rifles where all silver not an once of finish left on them my gun was crap then I got a M60E3 man jamomatic gun couldn't shoot for the life of me. I was told use more LSA really? I eventually moved to the Saw loved that gun lighter then the PIG and it just plain worked. I eventually moved to the 92F I got yet again a tired pistol the problem with the US armed forces as a whole is One maint and the so precious attitude towards weapons equip. What I mean by this is DONT GET RID OF THAT MAGAZINE ITS SOOOOO PRECIOUS! when the damn mag is done spring crapped out mag dented but yet we have to keep it good grief then you try to qual and all you hear is Tap Rack Nothing!
Throw in a couple of rockets, some RPK fire from the hills, and a mad scramble for the nearest trough or tire in the middle of a reload (bolt group locked back, dust cover open).
@ParselyBunny Condoms. I'm not kidding. We would use condoms or the fingers of silicone gloves over the muzzle. I knew one bloke who always brought packs of novelty camouflage condoms with him. Charged 50c a piece. At the end of the deployment he earned himself enough on condom sales to buy himself a soft gun case for his rifle.
@@PedroThePanda64 Necessity is the mother of invention. Brings a whole new meaning to the term "protect your piece" and "always practice proper safety"
pretty accurate test. In the invasion of Iraq we still put CLP on the inside of our rifles. The taping up the barrel is pretty legit we used duct tape to make shoot through muzzle caps. My rifle jammed our first ambush from the dust inside from the convoy. Switched to my M203 until I could get it back up and running. Thanks for giving me nightmares of the moon dust Have photos of how we set up our rifles if you ever need a reference
About a third of infantry reported a malfunction with their M16 that took a long time to clear during a firefight, or disabled the weapon for the entirety. It's just negligence by the Army.
In the interest of science, please do this test again with properly lubricated weapons. My M16 and M60 were always lubricated and never failed to work due to coastal sand or highlands red clay dust contamination. as a door gunner, we constantly generated clouds of dust and or sand going into and out of landing zones.
Frankly it’s better they run without lube as each type of firearm requires different types, levels and locations of lube to be considered “proper” which would no doubt cause people to cry foul for not being fair, in this way each platform gets the best chance possible ( as there is nothing to hold on to the dust and it is consistent between platforms) on the test, afterall, they aren’t ACTIVELY trying to make the rifles fail, rather they want to see which platforms perform better in each situation.
curious if, being the doorgunner and thus half hanging out a chopper that's in motion, might not remedy that problem a compared to a footslogger or ground vehicle mounted trooper in the same conditions.
Fair points, but when Vining said "properly lubricated" the Army standard is no carbon residue remaining on the weapon internals with a light coat of CLP/oil on all working surfaces. IMO this would begin to gum up the weapon. It may not truly fail, but it would not help its chances in any way. Moon dust didn't do my tanks or mounted machine guns any good at NTC last year and we maintain them religiously.
Another problem with the AR design and military issue M16s and M4s is the that the buttstock is attached to the lower receiver and the barrel to the upper, and the upper and lower are attached to each other by steel pins going through aluminum. Due to age, hard treatment, and bayonet/buttstroke drills, the pin holes in the upper and lower receivers get wallowed out, leading to a sloppy fit between the upper and lower. In Afghanistan, I had a fairly new M16A4 but it already had quite a bit of slop between the upper and lower that let moondust in. The outside of the rifle could be spotless but I'd pop the rear pin and the bolt carrier and inside of the receiver would be coated with a decent amount of sand.
I think that over lubrication could cause malfunctions in conditions like that. That fine dust mixed with CLP would create a gritty paste. Chuck Pressburg said when he was overseas in super sandy environments he would carry his rifle dry. He would also carry a small bottle of lube on his kit and if he knew he was going to be in a extended fire fight, he would apply lube the first chance he could.
I’ve never liked hearing people say that lube “attracts” grit and debris. There’s no force of attraction (static or anything else) at play, the only effect/interaction of the lube is that it holds debris preventing them from being blown off. In the end it’s the same but I guess it’s like when someone says “tolerances” when they mean clearances. I’d like to see a real test to quantify the effects wet lube has on gritty guns, I would guess that the results won’t be the forgone conclusion most commonly accept. After all it doesn’t stop being lube just because it’s contaminated with grit unless the entirety of the lube is absorbed by the debris it would still provide lubricity, and possibly when heated by the firing of the gun it would flow away (downward by gravity) taking the grit with it. I’m not simply being pedantic, the “dust magnet” idea is an commonly held and repeated concept testing it’s validity would make for a good video.
Never been in a desert but I have literally never lubed my ARs. As long as its got good gas rings and the carrier isn't gummed up with carbon buildup it'll keep on running. It really doesn't need any lube at all, lube is for things that see a lot of friction and heat and the only part in a gun that sees a lot of friction is the barrel and lube won't help you there at all. Keep your gun clean and it'll keep shooting.
after 2 deployments with an m4, I FULLY trust the system. Other than the beat up old m16's we had in TRADOC, i've only ever had 1 malfunction with an m4 in 10 years, and it was a strange fluke of a trigger not resetting once. I just racked the charging handle once and never had another problem. This video also makes the case for dry types of lube. I use hornady one shot because it has crazy corrosion protection and quickly dries into a dry lube. DI systems will blow a lot of junk out of the action if there isn't wet lube keeping all the dust in.
Worth noting the the sand was kicked into the AK with dust cover open, bolt closed. With the AR, dust cover open, bolt locked open. So the AR actually had it worse for that last part. Impressive results from both guns.
Depends on how realistic you want to be. Ar locks open and dust cover is only closed in transit so the test simulates a GI eating dirt while reloading. For ak dust cover is pretty much always closed and most aks do not lock open on last round.
@@thephoenix756 safety works as a dust cover in a sense. But either way, when the ak's bolt is closed its chamber is mostly protected, vs the ar15 having the bolt and chamber open.
This matched my real life findings. My coyote calling rifle is a post ban heavy barrel (.950) AR15. We move around a ton on ATVs and dust is a real stopper of even bolt action rifles. I run my guns dry and carry a can of compressed air in my quad bag. Every time we stop to do a stand I blow out my rifle and shotgun. Oil has aways been our biggest enemy with dust.
I knew members of Sapper squads in Afghanistan who saw combat on a regular basis. They cleaned their guns, on average, every 2 weeks and lived to talk about it.
Last deployment to Iraq I was in dusty LZ on almost every mission, and out on patrol for days on end. I always ran dry (but pre lubed with Rem Oil) which seems to give it a dry smooth operation.
I just realized... This means throwing your m4 on the sand to get some of it stuck on your gun is a valid form of applying camo to it since it's gonna work fine as long as no holes are open.
I don't think it would i never had a issue with it in iraq. The A2 is not the A1 its like saying the current m16/m4 will jam because the original m16 in the 1960 was prone to jamming before the improvements the only reason a sa80 A2 will jam is because either the mag is damaged or the soldier has been slack with his or her cleaning drills.
In the '90s with the A1, standard practice was to clean it beautifully, put it in a dustbin liner, roll it up, tape it closed and put it in a locker. If it was needed, it could be pulled out through the side of the bag. I heard from one man that the only reason his L85 would be needed would be if he ran out of ammo for his AK-whatever-he-found.
@@Mjk10957 the L85A2 uses the same receiver and bolt design, which would be responsible for how ingress and mud would jam the firearm. As for your uninformed M16 comment, that was due to powder loads being changed by the Ordnance company in a total moment of negligence and intentional sabotage, as they hated the M16 and wanted to force the military to stick with the M14
It's honestly quite simple, tighter tolerances mean that coarse/large debris are less likely to get into the gun and interfere with the mechanism (by changing friction between components). But it also means that, when there's something fine enough to get inside, there's less space for the debris to move around, and the dimensional tolerances make it susceptible to friction issues. Looser tolerances mean the opposite: More likely to get coarse debris, but fine debris has enough space to move around and is less likely to cause a change in operation. Good videos
Speaking from some experience, as a 10yr army afghan vet, I think its just that soldiers are taught to use unreasonable amounts of break free CLP-4 Cleaner Lubricant Preservative. It makes the dirt stick in places it probably shouldn't go, and cleaning a weapon in the field just makes it worse. Additionally the under utilization of the dust cover is definitely a factor.
The only time I’ve ever had an issue with moon dust was during emv before my first deployment. I had just finished cleaning my rifle and had never thought of not running it wet and when some ospreys came in to land dust went everywhere. We were then flown to conduct an assault on a mount town and my rifle had become a magazine fed straight pull bolt action. After I had time to clean it out with a toothbrush I was left with a substantial clump of wet oily sand in my hands and a good lesson.
Tons and tons of people (including myself in the past) suffer from the outdated stigma that ARs are unreliable; I'll trust my life with a good AR any day.
original M16s and A1 models had problems when we lubed them per spec, mostly to keep them functioning in a very humid environment. We realized early on that minimal lube worked best, but frequent cleaning.
Are we not gonna talk about the fact that the AR had the bolt locked back when they did the "kick sand all over it" test? It still did just as well as the AK which had the bolt forward in the same test.
Had to mortar my AR today. My cheap reloaded ammunition had a round that looks like it was hit with a hammer (flattened on two sides). Cleared the stuck round and the double feed it caused ans was still able it to tag the coyote.
Almost heaven, Arizonaaa Snow Caped Mountains, Colorado River Life is old there, older than the cactis Younger than the mountains, growin' like a breeze Dusty roads, take me home To the place I belong Arizonaaa, desert mama Take me home, dusty roads All my memories gather 'round her Miner's lady, stranger to blue water Dark and dusty, painted on the sky Misty taste of mezcal, teardrop in my eye Dusty roads, take me home To the place I belong Arizonaaa, desert mama Take me home, dusty roads I hear her voice in the mornin' hour, she calls me The radio reminds me of my home far away Drivin' down the road, I get a feelin' That I should've been home yesterday, yesterday Dusty roads, take me home To the place I belong Arizonaaa, desert mama Take me home, dusty roads Dusty roads, take me home To the place I belong Arizonaaa, dusty mama Take me home, country roads Take me home, (down) country roads Take me home, (down) country roads The second stanza works really well for Arizona lol
Awesome video as usual. It's a standard full-semi m4gery . thanks for pointing that out ;-) . a well built AR-15 can be a very reliable rifle if done right. a 'lubed" rifle could bring more dust/dirt into the receiver and possibly cause more malfunctions. that is why both the AKm and the AR-15 were both originally designed NOT to 'require' lubrication.
Ive gotten ny m4 all sorts of dirty running lanes and 5 second rushes in the field and its been all lubed up, with those gi mags and its ran for me just fine, these havent been the best taken care of, these weapons are really sealed up and function well, however if you put them up to unnatural abuse youre going to have issues for the army doctrine you always put your dustcover up, it just becomes habit after a while and even if you dont they still are just fine in those conditions as long as the bolts closed, great video yall
Upon rewatching this... During the dust kick test, the bolt was locked back, the AK does not lock back, so the AK had the benefit of the chamber being protected by the bolt, the AR did not. So the test was actually worse for the AR.
@@thephoenix756 Not the chamber… The bolt being closed helps protect the chamber from dirt incursion. There are three important areas in a firearm that contain tighter tolerances… The chamber, locking lugs, trigger. These areas need to most protection from debris, as they will cause hard failures if they get gummed up. It doesn’t take much dirt to cause big issues if it gets into the chamber. If you watch several test such as this one, the chamber getting dirty and preventing extraction of the casing is the leading cause of failures. Even an AK will choke hard if grit gets into the chamber. It is a bit more tolerant though, as steel cased ammo is the most common and a little less susceptible to the grit, as the steel is harder than brass. So the grit doesn’t dig into it as much.
Look up Fajr al Joroud, its an operation launched by the lebanese army in the summer of 2017 to take back 120 square kilometers of barren dusty mountains from isis, their m4s and m16s worked fine
10:59 Maybe the difference in the fire control group, civilian semi only vs military select fire (full auto) has something to do with it. Semi auto only having less moving parts and fewer components to trap dirt.
In VietNam in the dry season in I Corps we had failures due to grit and dust with the LSA we used. The muzzles we covered with unlubricated condoms and always checked the dust covers, the Mags were the problem in our web gear the flaps did not keep dust out well enough.
Here's how I envision the InrangeTV gun test battery in a few years; First, convoy dust test (with dust cover closed if available, then open), then dust kick in the chamber to simulate "convoy dismount" or whatever, then BAM mud test cause its "raining". Every gun gets a 30 min. test video that we can argue about for years, It'll be great.
I was a Marine artilleryman for 6 years and have an interesting story about lubricant and sand/dust at 29 Palms. We were told to disassemble the howitzer's breech and primer feed mechanism and remove all grease and clp from them due to the desert conditions. Four of our six guns, all M777A2, did this. I was one that didn't and while yes my breech turned into a nasty dirty soup it never once failed or seized up. The three other guns with no lube or grease ended up seizing their breech blocks after a week of firing.
I must say you are correct when it comes to ole boys in general. Been lucky enough to deal with some older A2 variant rifles and often times castle nuts as loose as a 1/16th inch rolled out in the buffer tubes is enough to slightly warp the spring and cause massive short-stroking issues. Quarter turn on the pipe wrench and they run like new models.
The one thing I hate about some test videos is they get it so obviously dirty and won’t try to make it shootable as if the soldier wouldn’t try anything to make it run. I like that y’all shake the gun at least
In 1987 in bct at fort dix. I was issued a gm hydromatic m16. I put a round in the mag that had dropped on the sand and had particulate on it. Had a horrendous malfuntion, drill sergeant and i had an awfull time clearing it. He was laughing at the end and said, pvt lee. I hope you learned something. Did not have to do pushups over it. I think a lesson learned is to keep your magazines covered in the pouch on your ta50 gear and aways check your ammo when loading a mag and make sure it is clean.😂
I remember reading something written by a Marine (Stryker unit?) about the Iraq invasion of 2003. The Marine wrote about the constant weapon maintenance done by Marines during the invasion, and seemed surprised that the Army units he observed did not do the same. He commented on the state of the soldiers weapons that they passed on the road, and the fact that no one was working on filthy weapons. Anyway, I'm sure that everyone has read the story of Jessica Lynch's unit and how their weapons jammed during the ambush due to a sandstorm. I have no doubt that constant weapon maintenance and protection from dust is a must in a sandy environment.
The Army uses primarily a form of government-issued CLP. We're trained to use it to clean the system, then leave a light-thin coating on all working surfaces, so we never really run our weapons dry. That may explain the anecdotal stories of jams due to dust in the field. Commercial CLP is allowed and encouraged, but if the same light residue is left then it would likely have the same result. Keep doing what y'all do gents!
Military ammo is about as reliable as ammo gets, its meant to work every time and accuracy comes second. The mags are definitely trash, aluminum AR mags are all originally designed to be disposable after a single use and all they've done is tweak a few things in the design over the years to get them to last longer. A purpose built mag for longevity and reliability like the old steel HK mags are a much better choice for the military since they always refuse to scrap things they don't need unless they get told they'll get brand spanking new toys if they "forget" to properly rig up drop chutes in air exercises like they do with HMMVs a lot.
Genuinely surprised conventional knowlage suggests Mud = AR>AK Sand = AK>AR Id say the Ak handled it better but still. All in all, another solid informative vid from inrangetv. 👍
Makes sense. The AR is better at keeping grit out of the action, but the AK seems to tolerate more grit once it gets in the action, and fine dust is harder to keep out than mud.
@@joshuab7737 That an objective lie: Dust cover open worked fine ua-cam.com/video/S5phNgZsaRg/v-deo.html And unlike the AR they didn't blow into the AK before trying to chamber the first round.
This definitely show's the good and the bad. The good - it's a milled, high quality weapon that works fine if it's clean. The bad - imagine hearing that dreaded click during the only moment in desert combat when you have the enemy in your sights.
13:33 Did you notice the different angles the fired brass is being ejected in? Bolt speed changing either from higher chamber pressure (dirt in the chamber/bolt face) or dirt fouling up BCG and/or buffer. Ian probably just change his point of aim.
Wait...You guys kicked moondust onto and into the AR with its bolt locked back, but the AK had its bolt forward sealing up a huge opening into the chamber.
@@austinm2980 Ugh...Really? Try for reading comprehension. I said the bolt seals up the chamber when it is closed (which it does on both the AR and the AK...and every other gun). I am aware that the AK does not have a bolt hold open device. The point I was making is that the testing should be fair where both rifles are in the same state during the tests. So since the AK bolt was closed, they should both have the bolt closed. Or rig the AK bolt to stay open during the test to match the AR's test.
I know of at least one story from a Primary & Secondary modcast where it was stated that they would go out with no lube, or as little lube as possible to allow their gun to get through a mag, as 9 times out of 10 they never needed to fire more than one mag (if that, or at all); if a "real" firefight broke out, however, they would "lube-douche" their rifles with as much lubricant as possible right then-and-there, and worry about cleaning up the mess when they got back to base. In other words, the trick to breaking an M4/M16 is to be in a unit where you're screamed at if you don't properly lube your weapon before every trip past the gate.
Yup. In a dry dusty environment you want the weapon dry as possible and still function. I live in Georgia. So to protect from corrosion I run my guns reasonably wet, but still not soaked. Just a little oil on bearing surfaces and keep the barrel with a think coat to protect it.
"The AK platform is CLEARLY better and this proves it!" "We should go back to the M14, which was the last good rifle the US had!" God, I can hear it in my head.
Just for shits and giggles I'd like to see more open guns like say the M1 garand/M14 or SKS rifles do. Maybe some newer rifles like the Scar. AR-18 would be cool, but You'd probably need to go to Canada to fine one that the owner would be willing to strap to Karl's jeep. Then you have the problem of Canada is only dusty part of the year, and not everywhere would have the dust you are looking for.
@@venator5 it's a reference to the activist dude who's been going around telling the media he was a Recon Ranger in Vietnam for years, and was at the center of the MAGA hat smirking kid non-troversy.
Because prior to the GWOT, although mags were class 9 armories still account for everyone of them. If you were issued one, you better turn in one our a lost and missing gear statement. And units did not have money to buy new ones.
@@davet231 No, YOU look again. The bolt on the AR is CLEARLY locked open when Ian is kicking sand all over it. He even blows through the ejection port to try and get some of the sand out. When they did that to the AK, they had the bolt closed. Nick Neider's comment was correct.
I have carried an AR in a buggy (Chenowth) for many years. I am a girl, I don't want to be out in the desert alone so I always take an AR. I took my most over gassed upper, put an old chromed BCG in it with a heavy buffer and spring. Running it dry it's very resistant to sand/silt. I kind of built it to be my "sand gun" and it has lots of mass in the BCG and buffer so it doesn't shoot as smoothly as my other guns but it is highly reliable in sandy/dusty conditions. Foam ear plug in the barrel, dust cover closed and plastic bags rubber banded over spare magazines and it has never failed me.
For the sake of consistency, I must insist that you guys continue to use the SpongeBob tape on every single dust test.
I was wondering what was on that tape.
I concur. In testing important matters such as these, consistency is vital.
It's standard issue, of course they are going to use it in all future videos.
the official tape of carnik con.
Ecosse57 Karl did a collab with CarnikCon btw. I forget which channel its on but they were shooting bulletproof helmets and plates
FAL and G3 tests are definitely in order.
How dare you to imply that those existed and AR family isn't the only weapon of NATO forces that competed with AK family?! It's as if you're a sane person;)
pscwplb I’d also be interested to see an m1a
@@thatoneengineer5525 They already did the M1A in a previous dust test (one of the very early videos on the channel) and it jammed up after a single round every single time.
@@worldfamousgi86 They did, but it was a very different test. Also their M1A was in an aftermarket stock, and they left the selector switch cutout open. I wouldn't mind seeing them do this test with an M1A/M-14 that is in a USGI stock, and has the cutout plugged like it should be.
Well, if they're going to test the FAL platform, it had better be the Commonwealth L1A1 Australian with its enlarged sand grooves. The whole purpose of that specific modification was to remediate the failures encountered while training in the Simpson.
But for even more interesting comparison, the Israeli FAL should also be tested since it's considered the worst the platform has to offer. So test the best and the worst FAL variants against the practically standardized G3.
Little anecdote here. I used to HATE the AR platform and M9 for unreliability. It was pretty much for reasons you said: service rifles/pistols. Qualifying in BMT as a young Airman, we were given franken-16’s, which were a hodge-podge of M16 and M16A1/A2 lowers and M16, A1, and A2 uppers that we’re barely kept in running order and fed no-lead frangible ammo. The rifle I got had a 16 lower with “auto” hand stamped out with X’s and “burst” hand stamped under it, and an A1 upper, however the hand guards had broken and been replaced with A2 style. Good news was it had the old school lefty sheet metal brass hood. Past round 10, however it was a bolt action.
Fast forward to Afghanistan, 2012, we were again issued tired, Reagan-era A2’s as we weren’t front-line troops (aircraft mechanics). At least we were given ammo, as the ANA had been shooting about as many Americans as they had their own countrymen. I cleaned my rifle as often as I could and it was never abused (just worn around base and on the ramp), however it was rare that I could drop the bolt and chamber a round after a day or two. A dust storm would make it hard to even open the rifle without mortaring it. Why? We were only given CLP to maintain the rifles, and as much as I tried to dry out every cranny and never use the CLP after the armory-mandated first cleaning, the thing remained a magnet. Combine that with a buffer spring as tired as the Russian “hairdressers” at the boardwalk, the thing was more useful as a brick.
My opinion didn’t get better, as each recurring qual was done on equally tired A2s with leadless ammo, until the Camp Bastion disaster. Marines got rekt by Taliban on the flightline due to lack of security and complacent training for non-combat troops, losing a good chunk of Harriers and some good guys. If it happened to Marines, we all figured we were screwed. After some well-deserved peepee smacking by the top levels of the Pentagon, the AF dumped all the trashed A2s and standardized the M4/M68 combo, changed qualification to a tactical course of fire, and started using proper ball ammo for quals.
My opinion of the M9/92 was equally bad for very similar reasons. Every encounter with the service pistol, it was trashed and unreliable.
Fast forward a few years, and my two go-to guns are a Colt 6920/Aimpoint PRO and a 92FS. What changed? My guns aren’t 30 year old service weapons abused by generations of teenagers. Accepting that EVERY design will be trash when placed in military service allows you to less critical of any of them. Give it ten years, and the P320 will be widely hated.
1990: "Those 1911's worked no matter what! No problems! Nothing! Best handguns evar! These new 9mm sissy pistols are crap, break, and choke!"
2020: "Those Beretta 92's worked no matter what! These new SIG pistols jam and choke!"
2050: "Those SIG P320's worked no matter what! These new pistols just jam and choke!"
2080: "Man, those old Plasma Pistols, man..."
2180: "Those old Phase Pistols, man..."
2280: "Those old Type 1 Phasers, man..."
Moral of the story: Soldiers will always complain, they will abuse their gear, and they will be fed plenty of propaganda from old salts that revered the olderweapons they used, because the ones that lived long enough to tell them about it, were the ones with well-maintained weapons. Speaking of, I remember someone saying years ago, that with the AR15/M16's reputation, combined with how the military keeps demanding "near 100% improvements" on new rifles, we're going to be hearing from future generations of Marines complaining about how their M4A9's are jamming on Martian dust.
I agree I started life in the Marines with an A1 than transitioned to A2 at one unit I checked into the A2 rifles where all silver not an once of finish left on them my gun was crap then I got a M60E3 man jamomatic gun couldn't shoot for the life of me. I was told use more LSA really? I eventually moved to the Saw loved that gun lighter then the PIG and it just plain worked. I eventually moved to the 92F I got yet again a tired pistol the problem with the US armed forces as a whole is One maint and the so precious attitude towards weapons equip. What I mean by this is DONT GET RID OF THAT MAGAZINE ITS SOOOOO PRECIOUS! when the damn mag is done spring crapped out mag dented but yet we have to keep it good grief then you try to qual and all you hear is Tap Rack Nothing!
Is this to say CLP catches more debris since its wet VS the gun running dry?
"Shermans were death traps!"
Man who survived his tank getting destroyed
@@TheAlhouk57 The sherman had great survivability due to the ease of exiting the tank, but its armor and weaponry was subpar for sure.
No lube....Extra sand. Sounds like mondays at my work.
Sounds like my time in the Marine Corps.
Sounds like discount night at the local gentleman's establishment
I don't like sand...
I also hate working for Amazon.
I’d like your comment but you have 666 likes, can’t mess that up.
Ugh, flashbacks. No lube or dry lube is the key. All you need is an IED blast to make it 100% legit.
Throw in a couple of rockets, some RPK fire from the hills, and a mad scramble for the nearest trough or tire in the middle of a reload (bolt group locked back, dust cover open).
@ParselyBunny Condoms. I'm not kidding. We would use condoms or the fingers of silicone gloves over the muzzle.
I knew one bloke who always brought packs of novelty camouflage condoms with him. Charged 50c a piece. At the end of the deployment he earned himself enough on condom sales to buy himself a soft gun case for his rifle.
@@PedroThePanda64 Necessity is the mother of invention. Brings a whole new meaning to the term "protect your piece" and "always practice proper safety"
@ParselyBunny There is an "issue" dust cover available
I always had the black cap. If the shit hit the fan, fuck it, blow that piece of shit off and don't even think about it.
No suprising to me ar15s are usually very reliable as long as nothing gets in the mags or internals. Great video guys
Most malfunctions ARs are due to shitty mags or REALLY poor maintenance.
I mean he purposely kicked up sand into the action and mag near the end of the video, but what really helped was keeping the thing dry
And the thing is, dirt in the mag or internals will ruin almost any gun. Even AK-47s.
Isn't that the fatal flaw for most guns lol
I think that's with every firearm 🤷♂️
pretty accurate test. In the invasion of Iraq we still put CLP on the inside of our rifles. The taping up the barrel is pretty legit we used duct tape to make shoot through muzzle caps. My rifle jammed our first ambush from the dust inside from the convoy. Switched to my M203 until I could get it back up and running. Thanks for giving me nightmares of the moon dust Have photos of how we set up our rifles if you ever need a reference
About a third of infantry reported a malfunction with their M16 that took a long time to clear during a firefight, or disabled the weapon for the entirety. It's just negligence by the Army.
What is used now rather than CLP?
@@WQuantrill CLP is still used afaik. It was when I was in in 2020
I always love the "its not full auto it's not real" in every experience ive had in the military ive never fired full auto unless it was blanks
This just in: Popular and well developed service rifles tend to work. People's minds are collectively blown. Love you guys :^)
Yes, they wouldn't be major military firearms in many countries for long if they were prone to failure. Unless it was the UK.
Eric N L85A1 noises
This is what i want.
Independent tests that are realistic and unbiased.
Thank you for your great work!
Tuorekelmu, Pekka.
The action sounded gritty as fuck after the sand kicking test.
Impressive that it basically kept going though!
In the interest of science, please do this test again with properly lubricated weapons. My M16 and M60 were always lubricated and never failed to work due to coastal sand or highlands red clay dust contamination. as a door gunner, we constantly generated clouds of dust and or sand going into and out of landing zones.
Yeah, unless you're one of the high speed low drag types, you lube your weapon before you head out. Institutional momentum says so.
Door gunners got,balls of steal or should I say lead
Frankly it’s better they run without lube as each type of firearm requires different types, levels and locations of lube to be considered “proper” which would no doubt cause people to cry foul for not being fair, in this way each platform gets the best chance possible ( as there is nothing to hold on to the dust and it is consistent between platforms) on the test, afterall, they aren’t ACTIVELY trying to make the rifles fail, rather they want to see which platforms perform better in each situation.
curious if, being the doorgunner and thus half hanging out a chopper that's in motion, might not remedy that problem a compared to a footslogger or ground vehicle mounted trooper in the same conditions.
Fair points, but when Vining said "properly lubricated" the Army standard is no carbon residue remaining on the weapon internals with a light coat of CLP/oil on all working surfaces. IMO this would begin to gum up the weapon. It may not truly fail, but it would not help its chances in any way. Moon dust didn't do my tanks or mounted machine guns any good at NTC last year and we maintain them religiously.
It's almost as if they knew what they were doing when they designed them...
Get out of here with that common sense.
The Kübelwagen is running again! Nice!
vw thing.
When wasn't it running? I'd love to have a Kubelwagen, it'd go great with my TDI Jetta Sportwagen.
Would love to see some older WWII stuff put through this test. Put the North African theater into perspective a bit. Maybe even Wild West...
Plus, it would make a great pairing with the kubelwagen.
@@Tobascodagama it's not a kubelwagen. it's a thing.
Seconded. Would love to see this test on a Garand.
Forest Firearms did a test like that.
A bolt action would probably fair a bit better in this test too.
I was counting the days for this video. 👍
Editing. It's work.
Another problem with the AR design and military issue M16s and M4s is the that the buttstock is attached to the lower receiver and the barrel to the upper, and the upper and lower are attached to each other by steel pins going through aluminum. Due to age, hard treatment, and bayonet/buttstroke drills, the pin holes in the upper and lower receivers get wallowed out, leading to a sloppy fit between the upper and lower. In Afghanistan, I had a fairly new M16A4 but it already had quite a bit of slop between the upper and lower that let moondust in. The outside of the rifle could be spotless but I'd pop the rear pin and the bolt carrier and inside of the receiver would be coated with a decent amount of sand.
I think that over lubrication could cause malfunctions in conditions like that. That fine dust mixed with CLP would create a gritty paste.
Chuck Pressburg said when he was overseas in super sandy environments he would carry his rifle dry. He would also carry a small bottle of lube on his kit and if he knew he was going to be in a extended fire fight, he would apply lube the first chance he could.
@@joshuab7737 Only where it needs it makes a huge difference.
No idea who chuck pressburg is, but sounds about right, I did the same. Or dry lube (graphite=carbon)
I’ve never liked hearing people say that lube “attracts” grit and debris. There’s no force of attraction (static or anything else) at play, the only effect/interaction of the lube is that it holds debris preventing them from being blown off. In the end it’s the same but I guess it’s like when someone says “tolerances” when they mean clearances. I’d like to see a real test to quantify the effects wet lube has on gritty guns, I would guess that the results won’t be the forgone conclusion most commonly accept. After all it doesn’t stop being lube just because it’s contaminated with grit unless the entirety of the lube is absorbed by the debris it would still provide lubricity, and possibly when heated by the firing of the gun it would flow away (downward by gravity) taking the grit with it.
I’m not simply being pedantic, the “dust magnet” idea is an commonly held and repeated concept testing it’s validity would make for a good video.
@@joshuab7737 Chuck was never in Delta or Special Forces, he was in the 75th Ranger Regiment. www.opdsource.com/Presscheck-s/178.htm
Never been in a desert but I have literally never lubed my ARs. As long as its got good gas rings and the carrier isn't gummed up with carbon buildup it'll keep on running. It really doesn't need any lube at all, lube is for things that see a lot of friction and heat and the only part in a gun that sees a lot of friction is the barrel and lube won't help you there at all. Keep your gun clean and it'll keep shooting.
It's just such a great design there's a reason were still using it to this day. Great show guys.
after 2 deployments with an m4, I FULLY trust the system. Other than the beat up old m16's we had in TRADOC, i've only ever had 1 malfunction with an m4 in 10 years, and it was a strange fluke of a trigger not resetting once. I just racked the charging handle once and never had another problem. This video also makes the case for dry types of lube. I use hornady one shot because it has crazy corrosion protection and quickly dries into a dry lube. DI systems will blow a lot of junk out of the action if there isn't wet lube keeping all the dust in.
You forgot to register that plastic bag to the ATF with a form 2.
Worth noting the the sand was kicked into the AK with dust cover open, bolt closed. With the AR, dust cover open, bolt locked open. So the AR actually had it worse for that last part. Impressive results from both guns.
Depends on how realistic you want to be. Ar locks open and dust cover is only closed in transit so the test simulates a GI eating dirt while reloading. For ak dust cover is pretty much always closed and most aks do not lock open on last round.
@@DmitriyLaktyushkin Eating dirt and kicking it full of said dirt. Not going to happen.
@@ericn7677 my reasoning for that was maybe a recreation of dirt being tossed around by impacting rounds?
It's also worth noting that the AK has a huge opening on the side of the receiver, so it was just as exposed.
@@thephoenix756 safety works as a dust cover in a sense. But either way, when the ak's bolt is closed its chamber is mostly protected, vs the ar15 having the bolt and chamber open.
Holy crap, I wasn't expecting this series so soon. I'll have to go watch the other one as well. Can't wait to see more!
This matched my real life findings. My coyote calling rifle is a post ban heavy barrel (.950) AR15. We move around a ton on ATVs and dust is a real stopper of even bolt action rifles. I run my guns dry and carry a can of compressed air in my quad bag. Every time we stop to do a stand I blow out my rifle and shotgun. Oil has aways been our biggest enemy with dust.
I knew members of Sapper squads in Afghanistan who saw combat on a regular basis. They cleaned their guns, on average, every 2 weeks and lived to talk about it.
Last deployment to Iraq I was in dusty LZ on almost every mission, and out on patrol for days on end. I always ran dry (but pre lubed with Rem Oil) which seems to give it a dry smooth operation.
I just realized... This means throwing your m4 on the sand to get some of it stuck on your gun is a valid form of applying camo to it since it's gonna work fine as long as no holes are open.
"Didn't need the forward assist" Ian looking smug... "Click"
I'd like to see an L85A2/A3 dust test... It'd probably die but it'd be interesting to see.
I don't think it would i never had a issue with it in iraq. The A2 is not the A1 its like saying the current m16/m4 will jam because the original m16 in the 1960 was prone to jamming before the improvements the only reason a sa80 A2 will jam is because either the mag is damaged or the soldier has been slack with his or her cleaning drills.
In the '90s with the A1, standard practice was to clean it beautifully, put it in a dustbin liner, roll it up, tape it closed and put it in a locker. If it was needed, it could be pulled out through the side of the bag. I heard from one man that the only reason his L85 would be needed would be if he ran out of ammo for his AK-whatever-he-found.
@@Mjk10957 the L85A2 uses the same receiver and bolt design, which would be responsible for how ingress and mud would jam the firearm.
As for your uninformed M16 comment, that was due to powder loads being changed by the Ordnance company in a total moment of negligence and intentional sabotage, as they hated the M16 and wanted to force the military to stick with the M14
I did alot of convoy work when I was deployed, this is a very realistic test.
I think a K98K and a SMLE dust test would be interesting to see
Bloke and InRange colab?
@@SgtKOnyx screw Bloke
@@peregrine3845 I see you feel strongly about this
Why not just throw an 03-A3 and a 91/30 into the same mix too?
It's honestly quite simple, tighter tolerances mean that coarse/large debris are less likely to get into the gun and interfere with the mechanism (by changing friction between components).
But it also means that, when there's something fine enough to get inside, there's less space for the debris to move around, and the dimensional tolerances make it susceptible to friction issues.
Looser tolerances mean the opposite: More likely to get coarse debris, but fine debris has enough space to move around and is less likely to cause a change in operation.
Good videos
I'd give you a bazillion thumbs up purely for M4gery😂😂😂
This is a fantastic test to do. Dust is a much more common contaminant around than heavy mud, and much harder to avoid conflict with! Great work!
MilSpec Issue Spongebob 100 mph tape. Love it.
Speaking from some experience, as a 10yr army afghan vet, I think its just that soldiers are taught to use unreasonable amounts of break free CLP-4 Cleaner Lubricant Preservative. It makes the dirt stick in places it probably shouldn't go, and cleaning a weapon in the field just makes it worse. Additionally the under utilization of the dust cover is definitely a factor.
I see you have the standard issue Spongebob duct tape for this test. Nice job!
The only time I’ve ever had an issue with moon dust was during emv before my first deployment. I had just finished cleaning my rifle and had never thought of not running it wet and when some ospreys came in to land dust went everywhere. We were then flown to conduct an assault on a mount town and my rifle had become a magazine fed straight pull bolt action. After I had time to clean it out with a toothbrush I was left with a substantial clump of wet oily sand in my hands and a good lesson.
Tons and tons of people (including myself in the past) suffer from the outdated stigma that ARs are unreliable; I'll trust my life with a good AR any day.
The AR is the finest rifle ever devised.
objectively true
Totally wasn’t expected Gun Jesus when I clicked on this video. Nice seeing ya from Forgotten Weapons :)
original M16s and A1 models had problems when we lubed them per spec, mostly to keep them functioning in a very humid environment. We realized early on that minimal lube worked best, but frequent cleaning.
Is the sponge Bob tape an homage to carnickcon? The greatest firearm channel that was ripped away from us
If you ever need some Dugan in your life there's a youtube channel called "Carnick Con Archive" with all the videos still
forsenCD
Are we not gonna talk about the fact that the AR had the bolt locked back when they did the "kick sand all over it" test? It still did just as well as the AK which had the bolt forward in the same test.
Im shocked this isnt being mentioned more often. It outperformed the ak imo
Had to mortar my AR today. My cheap reloaded ammunition had a round that looks like it was hit with a hammer (flattened on two sides). Cleared the stuck round and the double feed it caused ans was still able it to tag the coyote.
Impressive last part, AR’s are at least as dust resistant as AK’s, another urban legend blown. Thanx!
5:20 DUSTY ROAD, TAKE ME HOME TO THE PLACE I BELONG!
_-West Virginia-_
_ARIZONAAAA_
this made me tear up, those tears of course immediately dried of from the 120 degrees of freedom unit
Almost heaven, Arizonaaa
Snow Caped Mountains, Colorado River
Life is old there, older than the cactis
Younger than the mountains, growin' like a breeze
Dusty roads, take me home
To the place I belong
Arizonaaa, desert mama
Take me home, dusty roads
All my memories gather 'round her
Miner's lady, stranger to blue water
Dark and dusty, painted on the sky
Misty taste of mezcal, teardrop in my eye
Dusty roads, take me home
To the place I belong
Arizonaaa, desert mama
Take me home, dusty roads
I hear her voice in the mornin' hour, she calls me
The radio reminds me of my home far away
Drivin' down the road, I get a feelin'
That I should've been home yesterday, yesterday
Dusty roads, take me home
To the place I belong
Arizonaaa, desert mama
Take me home, dusty roads
Dusty roads, take me home
To the place I belong
Arizonaaa, dusty mama
Take me home, country roads
Take me home, (down) country roads
Take me home, (down) country roads
The second stanza works really well for Arizona lol
Awesome video as usual. It's a standard full-semi m4gery . thanks for pointing that out ;-) . a well built AR-15 can be a very reliable rifle if done right. a 'lubed" rifle could bring more dust/dirt into the receiver and possibly cause more malfunctions. that is why both the AKm and the AR-15 were both originally designed NOT to 'require' lubrication.
No wonder the US is still using this thing
Ive gotten ny m4 all sorts of dirty running lanes and 5 second rushes in the field and its been all lubed up, with those gi mags and its ran for me just fine, these havent been the best taken care of, these weapons are really sealed up and function well, however if you put them up to unnatural abuse youre going to have issues for the army doctrine you always put your dustcover up, it just becomes habit after a while and even if you dont they still are just fine in those conditions as long as the bolts closed, great video yall
Upon rewatching this... During the dust kick test, the bolt was locked back, the AK does not lock back, so the AK had the benefit of the chamber being protected by the bolt, the AR did not.
So the test was actually worse for the AR.
The AK literally had rocks inside and keep shooting.
@@dang0s804 They use different cycling systems.
The AK has a huge opening in the side of the receiver, so it was equally exposed to the dirt.
@@thephoenix756 Not the chamber… The bolt being closed helps protect the chamber from dirt incursion.
There are three important areas in a firearm that contain tighter tolerances… The chamber, locking lugs, trigger. These areas need to most protection from debris, as they will cause hard failures if they get gummed up.
It doesn’t take much dirt to cause big issues if it gets into the chamber. If you watch several test such as this one, the chamber getting dirty and preventing extraction of the casing is the leading cause of failures.
Even an AK will choke hard if grit gets into the chamber. It is a bit more tolerant though, as steel cased ammo is the most common and a little less susceptible to the grit, as the steel is harder than brass. So the grit doesn’t dig into it as much.
@@marine6680
Fair point, mate.
There's a reason why most countries field one or the other, they are both fantastic platforms. Excellent video guys keep it up.
ARs are incredible
Sand has been sprinkled
Look up Fajr al Joroud, its an operation launched by the lebanese army in the summer of 2017 to take back 120 square kilometers of barren dusty mountains from isis, their m4s and m16s worked fine
10:59 Maybe the difference in the fire control group, civilian semi only vs military select fire (full auto) has something to do with it. Semi auto only having less moving parts and fewer components to trap dirt.
If you want it to fail, give it to an Afghan.
Joke Bidet 2021: "Make Taliban Great Again." $85 Billion worth of weapons.
In VietNam in the dry season in I Corps we had failures due to grit and dust with the LSA we used. The muzzles we covered with unlubricated condoms and always checked the dust covers, the Mags were the problem in our web gear the flaps did not keep dust out well enough.
Not as spectacular as mud tests, but a very great tests. Thanks for driving to moon and back for this tests. ;)
Here's how I envision the InrangeTV gun test battery in a few years; First, convoy dust test (with dust cover closed if available, then open), then dust kick in the chamber to simulate "convoy dismount" or whatever, then BAM mud test cause its "raining". Every gun gets a 30 min. test video that we can argue about for years, It'll be great.
Looking Forward to the Type 38 test.
i hate watching these because the guns get ruined but i also like watching em because it shows whats more reliable
Did much better than I thought it would
I was a Marine artilleryman for 6 years and have an interesting story about lubricant and sand/dust at 29 Palms. We were told to disassemble the howitzer's breech and primer feed mechanism and remove all grease and clp from them due to the desert conditions. Four of our six guns, all M777A2, did this. I was one that didn't and while yes my breech turned into a nasty dirty soup it never once failed or seized up. The three other guns with no lube or grease ended up seizing their breech blocks after a week of firing.
When do we get a video of the tactical forward arrow on the magwell. This needs a video explaining the tactical applications of the arrow.
This just made me decide to get a BCM upper
I m russian and i think that the ak is a perfect gun for every situations
And i also think that the ar is a perfect gun for every situations
I must say you are correct when it comes to ole boys in general. Been lucky enough to deal with some older A2 variant rifles and often times castle nuts as loose as a 1/16th inch rolled out in the buffer tubes is enough to slightly warp the spring and cause massive short-stroking issues. Quarter turn on the pipe wrench and they run like new models.
The one thing I hate about some test videos is they get it so obviously dirty and won’t try to make it shootable as if the soldier wouldn’t try anything to make it run. I like that y’all shake the gun at least
In 1987 in bct at fort dix. I was issued a gm hydromatic m16. I put a round in the mag that had dropped on the sand and had particulate on it. Had a horrendous malfuntion, drill sergeant and i had an awfull time clearing it. He was laughing at the end and said, pvt lee. I hope you learned something. Did not have to do pushups over it. I think a lesson learned is to keep your magazines covered in the pouch on your ta50 gear and aways check your ammo when loading a mag and make sure it is clean.😂
Any plans to try out delayed roller guns that did so well on the original mud tests?
The bolt was also locked to the rear when kicking dirt on it and the AK was closed. So I’m even more impressed with the AR.
The AK it's an open system, the AR is not, so it's practically the same
FAL. Since IDF dropped the FAL for the Galil, I'd love to see how it actually performs or fails in moondust
IIRC they dropped it specifically because it didn’t function well in sand. Testing a G3 would be very interesting!
@@andreahighsides7756 yeah and this is a test of fine sand
IDF special episode?! K98, FAL, Galil?
About time! I've been looking forward for this vid. Thanks guys 👍👍
I remember reading something written by a Marine (Stryker unit?) about the Iraq invasion of 2003. The Marine wrote about the constant weapon maintenance done by Marines during the invasion, and seemed surprised that the Army units he observed did not do the same. He commented on the state of the soldiers weapons that they passed on the road, and the fact that no one was working on filthy weapons.
Anyway, I'm sure that everyone has read the story of Jessica Lynch's unit and how their weapons jammed during the ambush due to a sandstorm. I have no doubt that constant weapon maintenance and protection from dust is a must in a sandy environment.
The Army uses primarily a form of government-issued CLP. We're trained to use it to clean the system, then leave a light-thin coating on all working surfaces, so we never really run our weapons dry. That may explain the anecdotal stories of jams due to dust in the field. Commercial CLP is allowed and encouraged, but if the same light residue is left then it would likely have the same result. Keep doing what y'all do gents!
Military ammo is poop and mags in supply circulation are salt shakers half the time.
Military ammo is about as reliable as ammo gets, its meant to work every time and accuracy comes second. The mags are definitely trash, aluminum AR mags are all originally designed to be disposable after a single use and all they've done is tweak a few things in the design over the years to get them to last longer. A purpose built mag for longevity and reliability like the old steel HK mags are a much better choice for the military since they always refuse to scrap things they don't need unless they get told they'll get brand spanking new toys if they "forget" to properly rig up drop chutes in air exercises like they do with HMMVs a lot.
Glad to see you kept the dust out before you put dust in it. Lol
You didn't have the bolt locked open when you kicked the dirt into the AK. Why did you have it locked to the rear on the AR? Seems a little unfair.
The AK literally had rocks inside.
The AK does not have a bolt locked function.
Didn’t know you can just say fuck it to the buffer detent if you had too. Handy tip I guess.
Genuinely surprised conventional knowlage suggests
Mud = AR>AK
Sand = AK>AR
Id say the Ak handled it better but still.
All in all, another solid informative vid from inrangetv. 👍
Makes sense. The AR is better at keeping grit out of the action, but the AK seems to tolerate more grit once it gets in the action, and fine dust is harder to keep out than mud.
@@joshuab7737 That an objective lie: Dust cover open worked fine ua-cam.com/video/S5phNgZsaRg/v-deo.html
And unlike the AR they didn't blow into the AK before trying to chamber the first round.
Exactly, bolt open vs closed
This definitely show's the good and the bad. The good - it's a milled, high quality weapon that works fine if it's clean. The bad - imagine hearing that dreaded click during the only moment in desert combat when you have the enemy in your sights.
Let’s see the garand next!
Oof.
Interesting content as always! Looking forward to seeing more dust test videos in the future.
In your previous test you put dust on AK with bolt closed but in this video you put dust on AR with bolt open, that's unfair.
Inaka Sumi The magwell was open on both, so that doesn't make a great differense, but I get your point.
*difference, holy cow!
13:33 Did you notice the different angles the fired brass is being ejected in? Bolt speed changing either from higher chamber pressure (dirt in the chamber/bolt face) or dirt fouling up BCG and/or buffer. Ian probably just change his point of aim.
Wait...You guys kicked moondust onto and into the AR with its bolt locked back, but the AK had its bolt forward sealing up a huge opening into the chamber.
good point, had to go back and look
@@austinm2980 Ugh...Really?
Try for reading comprehension. I said the bolt seals up the chamber when it is closed (which it does on both the AR and the AK...and every other gun). I am aware that the AK does not have a bolt hold open device. The point I was making is that the testing should be fair where both rifles are in the same state during the tests. So since the AK bolt was closed, they should both have the bolt closed. Or rig the AK bolt to stay open during the test to match the AR's test.
@@austinm2980 I think you are objectively wrong.
One thing people forget to consider... is the fact the quality of the gun, if it's Colt, it's probably going to jam like hell.
Could you please link the video of the Swedish special forces with the g3? I haven't been able to find it.
Neo Lindholm Neo Lindholm ua-cam.com/video/eYdoG4_Hmyc/v-deo.html 5:00 minute mark. have a good one 👋🏻
It's not from a video, it's just a picture of a Norwegian Special Forces with a Norwegian Ag3-F2 version: i.imgur.com/9F2Nfki.jpg
Image is in the G3 Mud Test ua-cam.com/video/eYdoG4_Hmyc/v-deo.html
I think it's in the AK dust test.
Norwegian soldier ua-cam.com/video/2tMW1m0V99E/v-deo.html
I know of at least one story from a Primary & Secondary modcast where it was stated that they would go out with no lube, or as little lube as possible to allow their gun to get through a mag, as 9 times out of 10 they never needed to fire more than one mag (if that, or at all); if a "real" firefight broke out, however, they would "lube-douche" their rifles with as much lubricant as possible right then-and-there, and worry about cleaning up the mess when they got back to base.
In other words, the trick to breaking an M4/M16 is to be in a unit where you're screamed at if you don't properly lube your weapon before every trip past the gate.
Correct, it was Chuck Pressburg who mentioned that.
Yes; I just didn't name him specifically as not everyone reading these comments knows who he is. :)
Why ARE you missing the buffer detent?
Because they break and are not a necessary part. Explained in the WWSD series.
They're also easy to lose. Once they fall off your work bench, they enter an alternate universe. You won't be seeing it again.
@@PhilosoraptorXJ Yep they go hang out with wayward rear-takedown-pin springs, near the cracks in the fabric of space-time.
Because they are nothing but a part that can go wrong.
Yup. In a dry dusty environment you want the weapon dry as possible and still function. I live in Georgia. So to protect from corrosion I run my guns reasonably wet, but still not soaked. Just a little oil on bearing surfaces and keep the barrel with a think coat to protect it.
The drive part would be great with some music.
Something like this: ua-cam.com/video/Gb_8bOirTmw/v-deo.html
Oh that's good!@@ChucksSEADnDEAD The "Blackhawk Down" Soundtrack or "Ride of the Valkyries would work well too.
After the first failure from being buried with the bolt open someone, somewhere just said "SEE!?!?! THEY ARE UNRELIABLE TURDS".....
"The AK platform is CLEARLY better and this proves it!"
"We should go back to the M14, which was the last good rifle the US had!"
God, I can hear it in my head.
The irony is that:
They never fired an AR Rifle
They never even tested the AR platform with the AK Rifle
They never owned an AR Rifle.
Just for shits and giggles I'd like to see more open guns like say the M1 garand/M14 or SKS rifles do. Maybe some newer rifles like the Scar. AR-18 would be cool, but You'd probably need to go to Canada to fine one that the owner would be willing to strap to Karl's jeep. Then you have the problem of Canada is only dusty part of the year, and not everywhere would have the dust you are looking for.
Maybe the Brownells AR-18 upper?
As usual, excellent video.
I dunno years of _Vietnam_ _times_ veterans saying the M16 jams if you just even think about a dust mote must be true.
The vietnamese ones ammo related.
@@venator5 I'm being facetious. hell that is why put vietnam times veteran in there...
@@venator5 it's a reference to the activist dude who's been going around telling the media he was a Recon Ranger in Vietnam for years, and was at the center of the MAGA hat smirking kid non-troversy.
Ball propellant rather than IMR stick propellant in the ammo, specifically. Early non-chromed chambers didn't help either.
@@nickbeckwith6211 Also lack of training for cleaning and cleaning equipment.
Early on in the GWOT the problem was worn out magazines, magazines were just recirculated even if they had “bad” painted on them.
Going to the trouble of painting "bad" on a magazine when a quick stomp makes sure it never gets used again... Sheesh.
Because prior to the GWOT, although mags were class 9 armories still account for everyone of them. If you were issued one, you better turn in one our a lost and missing gear statement. And units did not have money to buy new ones.
Did you guys realize the bolt was open on the AR unlike the AK?
No it wasn't
@Nick Neider Yeah I realized that too. I think the AK would have done worse if the bolt was all the way open like that.
Look again both bolts were in battery
@@davet231 No, YOU look again. The bolt on the AR is CLEARLY locked open when Ian is kicking sand all over it. He even blows through the ejection port to try and get some of the sand out. When they did that to the AK, they had the bolt closed. Nick Neider's comment was correct.
crazyfvck I stand corrected I was looking at the the second on vehicle test.
I have carried an AR in a buggy (Chenowth) for many years. I am a girl, I don't want to be out in the desert alone so I always take an AR. I took my most over gassed upper, put an old chromed BCG in it with a heavy buffer and spring. Running it dry it's very resistant to sand/silt.
I kind of built it to be my "sand gun" and it has lots of mass in the BCG and buffer so it doesn't shoot as smoothly as my other guns but it is highly reliable in sandy/dusty conditions.
Foam ear plug in the barrel, dust cover closed and plastic bags rubber banded over spare magazines and it has never failed me.