What if the Romulans Never Entered The Dominion War? | Star Trek
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- Опубліковано 25 сер 2024
- Perhaps more than any other single event, the Federation's victory in the Dominion War might be owed to the Romulan Star Empire. But what might have happened if the Romulans had remained neutral?
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I think Grenak needs a new suit I know a good tailor
I like the first option. Analytical analysis of what "might" have happened.
I should hope this gets picked up. I'd be very interested to know what might be different if 楓 had met コウタ before she met 孤児院の少女.
I'd personally like to see an example or prototype of the more formal 'what if' episodes, but I think the more informal one is probs better. The formal content tends to be less critical, bringing to bear the facts therein rather than making a judgement call.
I definitely think your first idea for how to do the alternate history series is better - the point of an alternate history is to explore all the other options of what might happen - and there's almost always more than one outcome which isn't what happened.
"And if your conscience is bothering you, you should soothe it with the knowledge that you may have just saved the entire Alpha Quadrant, and all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal… and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer." - plain simple Garak, a Cardassian tailor
Also four Romulan guards Vreenak brought with him but we don't count them lol
"I don't know about you, but I call that a bargain." - Elim Garak
Quite a bargain.
Garak is StarTrek greatest character….I said what i said, dont @ me
@@HaldorZX they were wearing curiously red versions of the Romulan uniform, classic mistake
The "fifteen bases at once" point you made was excellent.
Every nation likely has at least one vague battle plan to invade every other nation.
The Romulans, known for espionage and mistrust, probably has a battle plan not just to invade the Dominion but also the Klingons and Federation.
I think the Rpmulans recognized the Dominion as a threat quite quickly. But it also makes perfect sense that they waited as long as possible to enter the war. After all, why would they want to intervene and end a war in which three of their enemies are weakening each other.
They probably have at least a few ship already in position to attack any nation if the need arises
@@--INDIGO-- Don't forget that the Romulans got a major wtf when the Tal Shair got wiped out in their "unauthorized" attack on Dominion capital. That tipped off the Romulans that they were not only compromised but that it was at highest levels. The Dominion were like nothing they'd ever dealt with before so clearly they needed time to rethink their plans and prepare for their next move.
@@anidiot2284 Maybe not they only seem to sneak around when they either don't have the advanatge or aren't sure they have it where as overtime they do they tend to go with kicking the door in and disruptoring everything in their path.
I always felt like the Romulans operated a bit like TF2's Sniper in that they "Have a plan to kill everyone you meet." The Romulans drafted up plans to invade the Cardassians and Dominion long before they actually attacked and just kept the resources in theater to execute upon command.
Something like:
"Praetor has ordered battle plan theta omega five."
"That should take exact 1.85 hours to execute with the assets we have on station."
Meanwhile, the Federation is like, "Who the keeps 15 battlegroups just sitting there? Oh right. The Romulans."
The Humans are Space Orcs stories really show how much I believe in phrase "when faced with extinction, every alternative is preferable". In any case, we'll be here to stay once we've bridged the stars, Terra Invicta!
Haha, I just mentioned "Agro Squirrel Narrates" yeah no one has a chance against the deathworlders call HO-MAM-ITLY or how ever these vile creatures are pronounced.
Red vs Blue.
I love how you're presenting this in character, specifically, that the Institute would have no way of knowing that the whole event was orchestrated by Cpt. Sisko and Garak and that nobody else involved survived to talk about their unwitting part in the ploy. Also Sisko's confrontation of Garak remains one of the best scenes in the show.
Its very interesting how much the Instutute knows and doesnt know. They obviously have eyes in private situations, like the conversation with Dukat and Weyoun, but not everywhere.
Well, I will say, based on how skillfully the reimagined New Republic/First Order conflict was done, I think doing these videos as a slightly more narratively-driven, "as if it actually happened" style would be really good.
I agree 100% with you.
The reimagined New Republic/First Order war is exactly what I had in mind for these kinds of videos!
I concur; I'd be game for that, at least.
Completely agree!! Templin's re-imagining of Star Wars (post-Empire) was fantastic....I would love to see other franchises - like Star Trek - get a similar treatment!
Agreed
I prefer this style of What If. Makes it very clear that it's a hypothetical. Going over it like your standard videos could be incredibly confusing and could even reflect poorly on the institute if someone doesn't understand that it's merely speculation
I think separating it from the mainline investigations would be enough... perhaps a "Facets" division should be created where "what if" scenarios would be explored by the tweaking of the Gates.
Seconded.
I agree; another benefit would be to useful explanations to those of us who *don't* know what Burt Gummer once called "critical, need-to-know information." (ie, some of us didn't watch much of - or remember much of - DS9 )
I absolutely agree: the Romulans were always going to intervene. With their advanced cloaking technology, I'll bet that they had substantial forces already in place even before the war began, ready to strike. The Romulans were simply waiting for the most opportune moment, hoping to weaken the Federation and Klingon Empire as much as possible while they built up their own fleets. I can easily see the Dominion attacking Vulcan only for the Romulans (rather ironically) to show up and defend it. Vreenak's death forced them to attack sooner than preferred, however.
I like to think the Romulans were the kinds of people who'd have some kind of contingency in place in case the Dominion became a legit problem for them 🤔
They couldn't even evacuate their core worlds during the supernova crisis..
@@RoosterSauce69 to be fair a random not normal in any way supernova would be hard to expect
@@cornblaster7003 I think more the point is, "best laid plans of mice and men"...Romulans LOVE being smarter than others, but their intricate carefully laid plans often fall apart WITHOUT any useful contingency because they make them too intricately in an effort to maximize hypothetical gains.
I'm sure they would have joined in the war anyway. At a later date probably.
Yeah its like they were building a superweapon...the Scimitar and its array I assumed tbh.
First off, great idea for a series. What if is a beautiful way to investigate universes we've touched upon already. Presenting alternate histories as if they happened to an alternate universe you visited is more "on brand" both for you and of course many settings that have alternate timelines like Trek.
To answer the question, probably a defeat given the losses incurred by the Klingons and Federation forces in their own war and fighting the Dominion to that point. And if the Breen join anyways, then it's possible the Romulans join the Dominion just not to be left out in the new galactic order, though I could see them helping the Klingon/Federation alliance behind the scenes just to force the Dominion to quagmire. Also the Son'a and others were providing ketracel so it's not a given the Jem H'adar go feral at least in the near future timescale we are looking at here. Where are the Organians when you need them?
I agree. But what about commissioning artists to make some original art?
@@williamhumes7332 If they can, I never feel comfortable asking a channel to spend for my basically free entertainment.
@@rubaiyat300 fair point.
Organians probably retired long ago.
Love the use of the Dukat/Weyoun scene. Although there are many other examples, that is probably the best summation of Dukat's villainy in just a couple lines.
Ironically, it shows an instance of Dukat's narcissism saving lives, along with just a smidge of what morality he possesses. Even Dukat recoils at the genocide that the Dominion routinely undertakes. His initial response to Weyoun's plan is a flat and sober "you can't do that". He realises that Weyoun won't understand the moral objection, so he pivots to something else.
It's brilliant writing. Dukat is still a monster, but even he has his limits.
I think you should go the incoming route, because we’d be hearing your thoughts on the matter and not strictly the TI’s thoughts.
I prefer this version of the alternate history videos. Its more laid back and allows you to cover different conclusions and possibilities.
I think there were a few caged demons the federation would have entertained releasing, in the event that Romulus didn't enter the war against the Dominion. A suicide run with Omega to the Founders' world, a few technical experiments run amok, or an AI disaster like Moriarty all seem viable.
For real. If Starfleet wanted to, they have enough obscure tech to disintegrate half the galaxy
Scalosian water suicide MACOs (basically comic book superspeedsters...for a time anyways), a phase cloaked ship loaded up with a Genesis device or two (or red matter if that is a known thing in this era) on major Dominion strongholds. Galaxy class ships loaded up with armor and shields and a Mannheim Temporal experiment warping into the middle of a Dominion fleet locking them temporally in place forever. Fighting a Federation that is existentially threatened SHOULD be like fighting one of the most OP sci-fi powers out there. Only their lack of true galactic scale in this era (and being at least tenuously tied to an attempt at plausible mid-future real world science) prevents them from being at the very top end.
@@rubaiyat300 yeah, you have to reach to other settings for a similar escalation of effect. Dark Angels emptying their vaults of archeotech, Inquisitor Ordos getting an amnesty on use of xenos or malleus artifacts, Reed Richards and Doctor Doom working together, Fucking Tinkers.
@@briankuczynski6884 Did not expect a Worm reference XD
@@Paul-A01 the Section 31 Blacksite is an armory of reality sunderers so if the Federation felt that they could not end the war through moral means they would be forced to become rather immoral and use whatever they had on hand.
There is an interesting opportunity that DS9 missed when it comes to Sisko as you suggested. With In The Pale Moonlight episode, Sisko feels bad for betraying Federation principles, but he comes to the realization that the Romulans inflicted heavy losses on the Dominion almost immediately beyond the normal expectations of what the Romulans were ever capable of. Later on, someone tells Sisko (or his own thoughts), "Do you feel you violated your principles or what the Romulans wanted you to believe?" The Romulans never hesitated in TNG in wiping out their own people for significant gain, and it fits appropriately for their shrewd personality.
As much as I would love to see you do these vids in an "actually happened" format, I think it would be best to keep them as they are. It helps in case people are unfamiliar with the source material. Great vid by the way, love this content.
"In the pale moonlight"
Such an amazing episode of DS9
07:26 I'd love to see a story like that. The Alpha Quadrant lies in ruin, the founders have perished, the Dominion has splintered into rival factions ... and then, suddenly, the Borg enter the scene.
I think the Borg would be very upset that the Dominion destroyed one of their most prized targets, and whatever was left of the Dominion by then wouldn't stand a chance against the wrath of the Collective.
@GrandmasterDevo Agreed, the Borg would want to assimilate species & their tech when everyone’s at their Peak. In a post-collapse galaxy, the Borg would likely have to settle for scavenging old battlefield graveyards, and assimilating populations of now-weakened species the way Astartes recruit from deathworlders.
Considering the Borg were recovering from Species 8472 and everything Janeway did to them, I'm not sure they would.
I have to say that I would love for you to continue the "What if?" series with the format of this episode. Not only will it allow you to use information from both timelines/universes, it will also make it easier for people not familiar with the canon events to learn a bit about them and maybe get invested enough to watch the actual shows/movies featuring the universe covered in the videos.
You know if we take future Trek content into consideration a Romulan victory is even more unlikely given that a devastating super nova is right around the corner that will rock them to their core.
Without Starfleet to intervene the death toll would be even bigger than in the Prime Universe.
Also I enjoy this Presentation more then the more in Universe one for this series.
Yeap, because as we know, vast Interstellar Empires die after loosing one planet and 'can not into astrophysics' :D
@@piotrd.4850 Unless you think the war is going to extend for a decade or so that stupid plot point wouldn't matter anyway.
For that question at the end there, I'd personally be fine with either and/or both alt-timeline formats.
For the specific video itself, I agree with the conclusions. If the Romulans didn't join the war, it wouldn't have been the UFP or the Dominion that would have won but the Borg. And in this case resistance would be futile. Thankfully for the UFP the Romulans joined sooner rather than later. Also, an intriguing thought is that in this timeline USS Voyager would have to go full Battlestar Galactica.
The Tal'shiar tried to glass the founder's homeworld. There's no way the Dominion would have left them alone, and the Romulans knew this. They were always going to enter the war.
For this series, on this channel, I think keeping the format like this works. I may not be familiar with some alternate worlds and trying to keep track of the alternates of alternates might be a bit much for my fragile little head. 😂 Making it clear when you are talking about "what if" scenarios of already divergent timeliness helps keep things clear if I decide I want to investigate the "baseline" alternate on my own.
The Romulans were waiting for a out come that would best align with interests they knew with the defeat of the Federation and the Klingons it would put them at a disadvantage by having one large hostile power on their border instead of two powers on their border trying to out do each other
There's little more interesting to me than alternate histories of stories I already love. As for the format, I think I would prefer the presentation of the regular videos, as though it were an Institute investigation. That said, keeping it separate may benefit the content and viewer experience; rather than a single set of events, multiple options can be proposed, opinions can be presented, and there's less danger of miscommunication
Between the dying founders, the inability to get reinforcements from the Gamma Quadrant, an unruly Cardassia tired of having their soldiers die for the Dominion and the quagmire of planetary conquests, I would say the Dominions position is impossible to maintain. When the founders die, I do not think the Jem Hadar would go beserk. They have already shown that they may not live having failed to protect their gods and so I think a mass suicide is more likely.
As for the Romulans, they were waiting for an excuse. I concur in your opinion that they waited for the right moment; preferably when the Federation could still fight and the Klingons had sustained so heavy casulties to not be a threat. The Federation and the Romulans have - for all their animosity - more in common than not.
Damn, that's a good point from the episode where Capt Sisko takes over the crashed Dominion ship. The Dominion was designed not to function without its Gods, the Founders. Tyrannies are often very brittle and have no succession planning.
Wouldn't the Vorta just say the Founders dying is a big lie? 99.9% of Jem'Hardar never saw a Founder/God.
I think the analytical format is better for most alternate history episodes, but the format mimicking the regular Templin Institute deep dives would be better for a deeper, more focused alt-history, one with perhaps a better defined narrative with tighter speculation.
Keep up the wonderful work!
I like the way you think. It makes sense now why the Romulans wouldn't tip their hand with strong border security, and why an apparently hostile Senator might accept the invitation of a station commander (who might have been offering those generous terms you mentioned) while on a supposedly secret mission. The Romulans starting their offensive at exactly 0800 DS9 Station Time seemed like too big a coincidence. It had to be a message to Starfleet that they knew what had happened.
I think this could lend itself to another series akin to your Sequel Trilogy reimagining you did a little ways back. I loved seeing you take everything apart and put them back together in a unique but still similar way, and I think you could do that with this format as well!
If you guys go ahead with this series, I think having the explainers like this (aka like Incoming) makes it clearer when you're talking about alternative events rather than those that occured in the respective cannon. That said, it'd be good to see both versions of this show so we can compare and contrast.
Great video btw, DS9 is a great star trek to focus on for this sort of show
Two and a half decades later and DS 9 is still relivent! Well done!!!!
I just finished watching the whole series on Netflix in less then 2 weeks straight. How different this time compared to first time as a kid waiting up til late with my mum and watching the whole series over 7 years of my teens .Hahaha
I do figure that if not for the Vreenak affair, the Romulans would still enter the war, likely right around when the Feds really got turned a bit more defensive and the Dominion committed to 'turning their backs' on the Romulan Empire.
I prefer this format to the other suggested one. As someone who watches all of your video, but happens to be unfamiliar with Star Trek, it allows me to keep straight what happened in the show and what is your projection of what could happen based on the hypothetical change.
good to know! thanks for the feedback
I think I would support either an analytical presentation over a alternate narrative. I think this way lays out the thinking behind the conclusions in a better way than storytelling narrative could provide.
Sci-Fi Alternate History? What a great place for your channel to explore. Love your channel. Keep up the good work.
Definitely prefer the presentation person in this episode. I find it interesting to hear how you came to conclusions and your thoughts on other possibilities
Definitely preferred this premise to the "things that annoyed me" pilot. As for which format to use, I think I'd prefer this style over the "as if it really happened" option, but both would work well imo.
I loved the First Order/New Republic war reimagining (even if you did take a page from the German Empire's war plans) that was done. But what made that episode amazing was the preceding episodes explaining the faults in the two sides and how you would go about fixing them. I think a combined approach would be the best - analize the information, the present a compeling story for the "what if" scenario.
i like this type of "what if" video as i can see the other option becoming confusing to people who don't know some of the universes that you would cover
Love the episode as the minion war is my favorite story in all of Trek. As for style, I think you should use a hybrid version. Start with where things stand at the moment, then give a detail of what changes you are assuming then tell us a story. End with a quick overview of the long-term consequences as you see them.
I got a good one.
What if Baltar knew about the cylon back door and plugged it without sixes knowledge.
In other words what would have happened if when the cylons attacked the 12 colonies the back door didn't work and the colonies could actually put up a counteroffensive.
The problem there is that even if the Colonial forces had taken a stand, would it have been enough? The Cylons were massed, ready, knew where every military and civilian asset was located. Even if the backdoor shutdown was turned off, the attack would have been blunted but not necessarily stopped. The Galactica was spared only because it was scheduled for decommission so it was a low priority target.
@@jamesneese7663 The Cylons would've inflicted massive casualties at first, but after the Colonial Fleet rallies, everything changes. The Cylon basestars were built for one purpose: to destroy the Twelve Colonies and Colonial Fleet with nuclear missiles. They were poor warships because the Cylons (having the limitations of machines) failed to account for the unexpected.
In a straight fight with what's left of the Colonial Fleet, the Cylons are soundly beaten. They're simply no match for the humans in a war, which is why they needed the CNP in the first place. In the fifty years since the last war, the Twelve Colonies dramatically increased the size and lethality of their military, likely thanks to an industrial capacity that the Cylons couldn't compete with.
@@Cailus3542 But that the's thing...the "after the colonial fleet rallies". That's a big if. Only get to see once in Razor just how huge the full cylon fleet is and it's pretty massive. They know where all the colonials are and they know to hit HARD, like how they completely obliterated the Scorpion shipyards before most of the battlestars there could even leave their moorings. They weren't going to just hit once and fade away, they were going to keep pressing and even where the colonies rallied, once the softer targets are wiped out, would likely reinforce and press their attacks. The colonies had more to lose and more ways to lose than there were victory conditions under such circumstances.
now here's the thing with Galactica: the Cylons never once threw EVERYTHING they had at her. The battle of Ragnar anchorage was Galactica against two basestars. Galactica and pegasus took on a convoy of four basestars and their resurrection ship. A lot of their fleet remained in the colonies long after the galctica fled but the cylons never once really turned their full might against the battlestar.
After the initial shock and destruction I reckon the Colonial fleet would rally and it would start hitting back hard halting the Cylon advance leading to a similar war as the first one
@@jamesneese7663 You're forgetting one thing about the scorpion shipyards none of the ships could leave their moorings They were all disabled by the back door. If the back door was patched and they were able to leave their moorings a lot of them probably would have pulled what the Pegasus did and just jump away and regroup.
I doubt the federation would have fallen, at least not as quickly as it may seem here. As the war progressed further into federation territory and closer to the sol system the supply lines of the federation would be shorter and the situation more desperate, the fighting would become more vicious and the defenders more tenacious, enough so that it would impress even the Klingons, speaking of which I don't think the Klingons had entirely committed to the war in its entirety by this point, and some reserves were still being held back. I think that the war would have encroached into federation core territory and Klingon space as well but as long as the wormhole could be held to prevent Dominion reinforcements from the gamma quadrant, they would run out of ships and jem hadar before the federation runs out of miranda class vessels. At this point the Dominion may begin to split and shatter as the founders perish. Maybe then the romulans would join the war to look like the heroes who ended it.
I'm a simple man. I see an Akira-class starship, I like 🙂
As someone who has a few What IF comics, please keep this one in the rotation.
Heck I can think of one other event for the Star Trek universe "What if Humans did not develop faster than light travel when they did"
I can see the people of the hills of eastern KY with bourbon in the blood fighting to the bloodily end and I know my blood line if it still lives in KY to do the same.
I prefer this style of what if. Where it is clear it is alternate history / timeline and it can be neatly compared to what actually happened or other possibilities.
I would like more alternate fictional histories in this format please.
"I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain."
Simple tailor
I love this alternate history of Star Trek! Can you do more of it? I love the realism you used!
This will probably be my favourite. What if's/alternate history is my favourite genre.
I think you're missing one key factor in a Dominion Civil War: the Cardassians. During their alliance with the Dominion, the Cardassians retained autonomy. If Gul Dukat was still around by the time that the Founders died off, it wouldn't be out of character for him to try to put Cardassians on top of the new Dominion hierarchy. This would probably result in the Cardassians becoming the dominant power in the Alpha Quadrant.
Another possibility is that the Founders delay the invasion of the Romulan Star Empire, possibly due to the morphogenic virus. If so, the Romulans would certainly take the opportunity to expand. We might see an Alpha Quadrant divided between Romulan and Cardassian spheres of influence. That certainly sounds dire, except that both societies faced internal pressure to reform. The Cardassian reform movement was explicitly allied to the Federation and might be able to draw support from Federation remnants.
I think this style is better for this type of video. People who aren’t necessarily familiar with the source material are less likely to get confused. Either way I’m excited to see more.
I vote for the Incoming style; this one would actually be a lot better for these what-if scenarios you're discussing.
By the way, an interesting turn of events you speculate on if the Dominion won the Dominion War; the Dominion ultimately collapses in on itself because of the war, and then the Borg swoops in out of nowhere to conquer all life in the Galaxy. However, if this is the case, then how about what other, more unexpected guests, would have to say about Galactic geopolitics then? Like say, the Q, the Federation in the 31st Century, or even the Terran Empire?
Great question! But there's more. The Kelvans from the Andromeda galaxy ought to be arriving in the mid-25th century, Sphere Builders in the 26th century, where are the Metrons/Organians, what would the Cytherians (and "God" I guess) in the middle of the galaxy say? It would be a huge thing. And of course Species 8472 might very well have a say in all this as well.
@@rubaiyat300
Actually, I'm just sticking to those three factions for these reasons.
The Q might not be interested in seeing the Borg take over the Galacy because they are people who live for the mixture of chaos and order among mortals, something that the Borg are antagonistic against. The Federation in the 31st Century wouldn't want to see the Federation in the 24th Century conquered for glaringly obvious reasons. As for the Terran Empire, they are opportunistic bastards who take joy in conquering something which normally cannot be conquered; Terran rebels once worked together with Federation visitors to overthrow the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance, so whose to say that the Terrans won't eventually develop the proper technology for moving between universes to expand their empire to a Milky Way Galaxy in a different universe simply for the thrill of it?
Section 31's strategic outlook: From hell's heart I stab at thee. For hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.
Really enjoyed this, and the format suits this new type of content perfectly.
As long as we keep getting the normal style videos as well, then amazing 👌🏻
a simple tailor once told me that if a "spy" had motivated the Romulans to side with the Federation and Klingons well...as he put it "it would be the political shakeup of the century" but he was just a simple tailor after all.....just plain.....
A common problem I've noticed in what-if scenarios (Not this one necessarily just in general, this one provides good arguments for your case, I just thought it would be worth making this issue more widely known) is that there's a common assumption that the way the good guys won in the canon was the only way that could have possibly won. As if the rebellion could have ONLY won if they won the Battle of Endor, exactly the same way it happened in canon or that the Free People's could have ONLY won by following the exact way it happened in the films.
It's as if a lot of people don't consider the idea that the good guys could have won a different way. A remember a common piece of advice in military analysts that one of the most common reasons that a plan fails is that they assume that their enemy will do nothing in response to them. A good example of this would be the common what if Nazi Germany invented jet planes. A lot of people assume that the Germans would annihilate the Allied Airforce and somehow win the war, never considering that the Allies might find some countermeasure to the jet planes (A scenario that might have befallen the Death Star even without the plans) or create their own jet planes now that they know that the technology exists.
This isn't a problem with this scenario in particular, I don't know enough about Star Trek to criticise it in any case, and I like that you mentioned that the Romulans were inevitably going to join the war. It's just something worth keeping in mind, there's more than one path for good to triumph.
Also, I prefer the first format, which avoids things being confusing.
The way they brought the romulans in was genius writing I think..
Along the same vein, I would also love to see crossovers between universes, to compare their different technological and strategic capabilities.
Would the Federation be able to handle the Empire at the height of its power?
Could the world of Mass Effect survive a full-scale Tyrannid invasion?
It would be interesting to see how the battles, how the wars, change given the situation.
Assuming you mean the Galactic Empire, a war with the Federation would be a breeze for the Empire. Fighting other capital ships that don't usually use fighters is basically what the ISD was built for, and the Empire itself would be able to mobilize far more assets than the Federation.
@@FormerBunsenBurner I agree on the last part, but on the first part, when the cap ships in question can move like the fighters you can't hit that isn't entirely an issue.
I actually spent a lot of time obsessing over what would happen in such a crossover, and I came to the conclusion that the fewer capital ships, the more likely the federation wins, but balance shifts heavily towards the Imperials as battles increase in size, due to the decreased space for maneuver and the federation's inferior ability to engage multiple targets at once. However, the empire would also have a near unbeatable trump card in the form of the TIE Bomber, which federation ships basically can't do anything against but which can easily cripple or destroy any federation craft.
Interesting but ultimately this would evoke more negativity than this channel probably wants. We see the narrator try to head a lot of it off (and it being a much lower scale than what would come from these) to make a tongue in cheek point, multiple times, about their opinion coming from an unassailable font of wisdom and truth (because for some folks on the internet that is how they view anyone else's view on their own claims). There are too many interpretations of canon and which side one is invested on to ever make this actually fun. Folks emotionally invested in a property NEED it to be the best and greatest or it reflects badly on their ego and then you are just gonna have zealots yelling at zealots. I've seen too many forums (and literal internet forums) devoted to VS battles devolve in this way.
the thing with ST vs SW is that ST literally makes up new tech and new techno magic wtf on the fly. I mean, look how even the mighty Borg got defeated and annihilated by a single broken down starship lost and far from home. The supposedly invincible borg. by one lone ship. How would the empire fare against when one Galaxy Class starship can probably do the trench run singlehandedly.....?
I think I prefer this format. it seems more in line with the theme of the channel. I'm down with more alternate fictional future history.
4:44 _"No greater sacrifice has ever been asked of a people but I ask you now, to step forward one last time, one last battle to hold the line against the night!"_
I really like how the alternative timelines worked out for Star Wars so I think that a similar style should be used for the series.
I think I like the casual speculation format rather than a usual factual accounting
A great idea. And I think maybe a mix of both options on how the lore is portrayed might work best although even if you did two separate episodes in each format that might be a good taster on which to choose
We need more What if episodes, because the possibilities are endless. For example, what if Anakin DIDN'T turn to the darkside and became Darth Vader? Or what if Frodo was able to throw the Ring of Power into the fires of Mount Doom before finally succumbing to its influence? Or what if the Zeon had won the One Year War? Like I said, the possibilities of episodes of this series are endless.
The part about the Borg is, Voyager was in the Delta Quadrant. Say the alternate future Janeway still comes back, Voyager will come blasting into the Alpha Quadrant to find the Dominion has taken over, but more importantly, the Borg would have still been heavily crippled.
Later in _Voyager,_ the ship spends quite a bit of time talking with folks back home (giving us our Dwight Schultz guest appearances.) How much would later _Voyager_ change with a Dominion victory, especially since _Voyager_ only made it home as quickly as it did by use of time travel from a Federation-victory timeline?
I like the idea of talking about it as if it already happened, like it's just another alternate universe that you're investigating.
This was dope keep it up. I like the analytical approach.
I think the ideal format for any form of alternate history is a narrative as long as why things turned ought that way are are understandable
The "as it happened" format is my preference. It offers the same data but presented in a more interesting way.
And you are definitely right that the Romulans probably planned to enter the war early, they are known for having contingency plans for contingency plans.
I prefer the way this episode was done. Felt more like a conversation then the "factual" way a normal episode style would come across.
I'd almost like to see a Best of Both Worlds. A quick analysis setting up the scenario, the elements at play, and why you think it'd go a certain way, followed by a shorter version of a normal concept, where you view the new scenario.
Almost like what was done with the New Republic and First Order reimagined stuff, but shorter.
I would love the Alt History vids to be done in the second more narrative style you mentioned. Alt history is entirely about "What if X happened?" so you might as well show it happening.
Excellent video.
A suggestion (to add to a large pile): What if the Oddessy in Deep Space 9 was able to handle the Dominion weapons and shields and survive the first contact with the Dominion? How would this change the Dominion's view of the Alpha Quadrant?
This made me wonder if the ketrasel white wasn't only to keep Dominion troops loyal but also to make them unable to be assimilated by the borg.
I would enjoy both, so mabye a mix of some analtical and some narrative, would be best, depending on the topic being covered as some what ifs, have wide range of possiblities, better suited to analtical style while some many only have one or a few possiblities which many fit a narrative style better.
I definitely prefer this format to the alternative - presenting events as hypotheticals allows you to show alternative options more easily, and toy with the various What-Ifs.
While I enjoy the straightforward delivery of the normal videos, i really enjoyed the speculative nature of this one and how it was explained. My main criticism is that you spent a significant amount of time on "romulans NEVER enter the war" while I feel the "romulans see whats up and enter anyways" is far more likely and deserved a bit more time. Of course, there is limited time for any subject and you cant give every theory equal time. Still, i feel this format works better than one where the assumption is it DID happen because that eliminates the discussion of other theories.
I like the analytical option
Now this is a lovely little timeline, I'd like to see more of it and whatever things are running through the Institutes files.
I love this new episode type, please keep it goong
I think a bit of both formats, the speculative discussion on Incoming ... but for the more detailed What Ifs? A narrative episode would be interesting, especially for canonical alternate timelines of franchises and worlds that are built on alt history (i am thinking in particular of your Kaiserreich videos)
For the first one, I think I am growing familiar with the "Incoming"-style presentation with the soothing voice of Marc explaining what would have happened in great detail.
For the second, it might sound like those narrations in-between and in the end of every Battlefield 1 Operations campaign. Would be interesting to see either way.
I would love to keep the more "x reimagined" style of reporting as though that was what happened. I'm sure it's more work, but it's also among the highest quality content this channel produces
My person headcanon is that the Tal Shiar actually arranged the whole thing to get rid of Vreenak and create a casus belli. Vreenak was a true believer who wanted the Dominion to *win*, and the fact that he was willing to meet the Dominion in person (and risk being replaced by a changeling) made him a massive liability. If Vreenak exposed Romulan plans to the Dominion that could be disastrous.
Personally, I think the most likely truth is that a faction within the Romulan Star Empire desiring to enter the war assassinated Vreenak both to eliminate a vocal proponent of continued neutrality and provide a casus belli for declaring war. In my opinion, the only plausible alternative to the Romulans going to war against the Dominion is not continued neutrality but as the Breen later did, going to war alongside the Dominion. However, if they had, I think it likely the Breen would have gotten involved on the side of the Federation Alliance.
For a "what-if" perspective, I prefer this format.
I genuinely believed the Romulans knew the datarod was a fake. But they knew by that point that they needed to get involved in the war, or face a Dominion dominated Alpha quadrant and this was the best excuse they were gonna get and the Federation just handed it to them.
I like discussing options. Alternate scenarios help me understand the actual timeline better.
I feel like for clarity's sake, this format is best. For my own personal enjoyment, I'd love to see these 'what if's in the format of the standard Templin Investigations.
Analytical what-ifs is better suited towards discussing sub-variants, so I like that idea better.
Excited for more o this series!
Seeing how the Institute investigates alternate worlds without much trouble, I have no problem with them making quick scans and reports of alternate timelines from those worlds that almost occurred but faded from reality before a thorough investigation could be completed.
In the pale moonlight is such a good episode
Honestly, seeing Earth glasses like that is... Heartbreaking.
Next sub series, what if the Templin institute got access to the world between worlds?
I like the idea of this series, and enjoyed the video. I do feel it could be more, however. I don't know if you intend for each "what if?" question to only have one episode. Maybe it's just my bias on this particular topic, but I would have loved to see at least another alternate take on the same question. The alternate scenario is a lot more open of variation, so examining what happens if the Federation still manages a more bloody win or a stalemate even without Romulan intervention, and what happens to the galaxy then. This vid was only 10 mins, and you've done longer ones before, so I think examining 3-4 outcomes would be great content (unless you plan on additional videos to tackle those: "What if the Romulans part 2/3/4").
I say this is a better what-if format. If nothing else, I think that the variety of formats will make them less repetitive to watch and possibly less confusing.
What if Horus won horus herecy?
And the other alternative what would have the imperium become if the Horus Heresy never happened?
Honestly I love this as a huge alternate history fan, and honestly I feel like both formats could be intermixed depending on the story in question. I did love for example a presentation of the mass effect galaxy post reaper war as very factual and straightforward,and i admit to enjoying this style as well with the branching paths that alternate history inevitably leads to. Feel like both serve a great purpose for the institute.