Huge Commander Bans! | Should CEDH Split And Become Its Own Format?
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
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0:00 Intro
3:40 My Thoughts On The Bans
4:58 Breakdown of Banned Cards
12:53 Breakdown of Deck Changes
23:53 Meta Changes
26:55 The Emotions Around This Announcement
30:22 Should CEDH Become Its Own Format?
49:14 I Want To Hear From You!
#cedh #edh #mtgcommander #mtg #magicthegathering
Oh man the intro without the usual slogan really set the tone :(
lol never watched before
I just want to say: thank you so much Ryan for being so organized, open, and wholistic about this banning. We appreciate you!!
b&sEDH. It's EDH but with Blackjack & Strippers
I can get behind that!
Great video! we have a huge community of Conquest in Brazil. It's a very good format. Give it a try!
Can attest to how wonderful the conquest community is! It’s a great format and it’s full of great people 🙂
What is Conquest?
Nadu is going to have to reevaluate their strategy. A lot… 13:37
Yeah I reevaluated and decided to move back to krark sakashima
I think right now, cEDH is having a bit of an identity crisis. Our format's governing body isn’t interested in catering to our meta, and cards that weren’t a problem for us have been banned for the sake of casual EDH.
We need to decide: are we EDH taken to its logical extreme, or aren’t we? If we are, then we need to accept that this is how things are. Even if we don't agree with them.
I think the bans were too sudden, and handled very poorly by the RC. But bans are also a normal part of every other format. It's very telling that we react this poorly to cards being banned.
cEDH folk need to realize that these cards (especially Dockside and Nadu) warp the meta around themselves and, unless you really enjoy blinking Dockside for the next 50 years, the cEDH meta has been stale for a while and not in a good way.
You need a meta shake-up once in a while and this banlist incidentally provides that.
Now, I don't know whether this will be a good for the format or RogSi will dominate it all, but splitting the formats just so you can play with broken and banned cards is not it. If cEDH splits, a new banlist is in order (ban Rograkh and Thoracle maybe?), and reintroducing Dockside is not a smart move
This is my take on it too. I know a lot of people won't agree (and that's okay) but I've always thought that cEDH is just the rule 0 talk saying we're going to play EDH at the highest power we can. I think limitations are a foundation of the format, that's why we play with color identity. This changes how and what we play, but we'll be just fine.
@@florinalinmarginean1135this is a false equivalence.
Dockside in cEDH would likely face a ban or be heavy restricted at tournament.
So what the OP stated is true.
CEDH is causing and while also being overly affected by bans for casual players.
Dockside being a blow out Win More card in casual while being an interact or scoop card in competitive cause it to get banned in casual games. The peak of the cards annoyance is why it’s gone, which 99% of players don’t even have decks with the ability to do that.
Cedh isn't a separate format. It's just edh played at its most powerful and competitive spirit. Splitting the formats won't do anything. People will just break the new format and technically, a new cedh will be made.
@@mramisuzuki6962 I do not disagree with OP. However, why are cEDH players advocating for splitting the format right after this banlist? They clearly want to reverse the bans, and I don't think it will be healthy for the format.
Anyway, the community seems pretty divided. Some want a split so they can play with these powerful cards, while others recognize cEDH is just EDH, but pushed to its limits, so a split doesn't really make sense
Mana crypt was "soft banned" IMO in casual edh, as are many cedh staples, at least in high quantities. No one was okay with a casual deck running all the fast mana and free interaction pieces, even if your commander/win conditions are bad. That is just a bad cedh deck. Sure it is okay to run a mox opal in your artifact theme deck, or a mana crypt in your coin flip deck, or dockside in your pirates/goblins deck, etc.
But there is technically nothing in the rules preventing some one from doing this. Which leading to lopsided public games where people don't abide by the soft bans or have a proper rule 0 conversation. Hence why sadly theses cares are actually banned now.
But its not just these 4 cards that are "soft banned" IMO, it is probably a good portion of the top cedh meta. Mox diamond, sol ring, chrome mox, rhystic study, mystic remora, the one ring, orcish bowmaster, thassa's oracle, demonic tutor, vampiric tutor, underworld breach, smothering tithe, etc. I foresee some of these cards being banned in the future with the recent precedent. And I would agree with those bans! In a casual setting of course. In a cedh setting though, I don't want to play a watered down version. I like you, want to play with the broken cards. Will it take another cedh meta card ban before we say "enough is enough" or just do it now because both formats would be healthier in the long run. Will it be difficult, will it stunt growth, maybe but worth it when "enough is enough".
They aren't really soft banned in casual EDH, otherwise these cards wouldn't demand such a high price tag on the secondary market.
Thoracle is soft banned in casual EDH, even at high power tables, and its price reflects that. Dockside, Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt on the other hand...
People need to realize that casual does not mean most people are playing at precon level. Most of the time, these cards will be played in casual decks, but they won't be abused for infinite combos or along Thoracle
The problem is though no one's actively trying to tell people that they can't do something. I've had people have those cards in their deck and I didn't even know because the only thing they claimed was the deck wasn't cedh. So just like your example, it's just a weak cedh deck but from their perspective it is not a CEDH deck at all.
Ryan, this is the most eloquent and thoughtful take I have seen about this all week. I volunteer a substantial amount of time as an admin, moderator, brewer, and reviewer for cEDH in a wide variety of spaces. Because of the nature of my position in in this community, I have seen so much ugliness from within our community this week. I love and care about this community, and it hurts my heart to see the constant anger, mocking, and harrassment we've seen. Thank you for taking the time to address the community and share your perspective, and thank you for being kind and caring in your response to this community. It comes as a light in dark times, and I couldn't agree with you more.
You very briefly mentioned Bowmasters, but just on that point, I firmly believe the purpose of bans should be making weak decks more viable as opposed to putting a handicap on strong decks.
Just to briefly explain with some cards people often want banned, as I've said in another comment how I believe banning fast mana hurts slow decks more than fast decks.
Thassa's Oracle, it's strong, yes, maybe too strong, but with the fast mana among other things, decks could counter it, this should be supported, banning Thoracle doesn't just mean the card, it effectively removes a playstyle (one you may not enjoy, but some people do)
The One Ring, blue is very good at drawing cards, and the strongest colour by a long way, with or without the one ring blue will have card advantage, the ring being colourless gives each other colour some sort of option to compete, supporting other colours, not nerfing blue
Bowmasters, basically is the reason (parts/most of) green isn't playable at a high level, banning it creats more viable deck options in the meta while not significantly hurting black because bowmasters isn't a strategy or namesake of any deck and is replaceable
Personally I view Bowmasters in Dockside on the same level, but that's just me 🤷. The thing about those two cards are that your being punished by just playing the game. With Dockside your punished with just playing alot of artifacts and enchantments. With bowmasters you're punished by drawing extra cards. I think Bowmasters is worse and more toxic because you don't even have to be the one drawing extra cards and you're still getting punished. Having all your mana dorks shot down and killed. When you haven't even drawn a second card :///
@simplexius9250 Dockside unfortunately was abused and therefore I understand it's banning and avoided putting it alongside Thoracle and The One Ring in my comment, however with the way it scaled with table power it was a good tool, I.E. if I bring a cEDH deck to pubstomp my casual LGS, Dockside is typically one of the worse early rituals in my deck, however if I drop a handful of fast mana and an opponent plays a Dockside, it doesn't make us even but it gave them some kind of chance, these are of course extremes, but effectively it had the ability to close a gap in power imbalance.
Granted it made people less likely to dump a hand full of rocks, but it didn't make treasures by oppressing those players (it wasn't Hullbreacher), looping it made it strong enough to deserve it's ban, outside of that (in an ideal world where things aren't ever abused) it was a great catch up tool that made a burst of mana to compete with opponents explosive starts
Just starting this vid I'm gonna quickly list my personal thoughts on the bans.
Dockside: Good fucking riddance. This was just a step too far in terms of fast mana.
Nadu: Probably for the best that this is banned. Manual """storm""" that is even more boring than Krarkashima casting Gitaxian Probe 15 times in a row.
Mana Crypt: I think I'd rather not have this be banned, but it's not a ban I'll complain about.
Jeweled Lotus: This is a ban I will complain about. I like cooking with more expensive commanders and having the potential to rip my commander 3 mana faster than normal is a massive point in favor of the more cooked commander picks.
My thoughts exactly on this list except flipp Nadu and dockside
I also build creature less EDH decks and JL essentially made every commander a viable choice now.
My Legolas will not be dropping JL anytime soon regardless of the ban.
Don't worry next year we well have "Jeweled Mox" and "Mana Lotus".
Thassa's should've died too!
Gotta say ur takes were awesome I’ve been tired of everyone saying their decks are dead and the format needs to be split.
It makes me super torn. On one hand it makes me realize how big the format has gotten on the other it made me realize that not everyone is into Cedh for the same reason I got into the format. End of day Cedh is just no holds barred cutthroat commander splitting it off makes it not that. My first deck was paradox Joihra when that got band I swapped and brewed another version untill flash got big and I left. I realized that meta wasn’t for me and left to eventually come back when it was. Some of yall may need to do that and that’s ok.
Cedh has eras we just entering another one.
I know I'm the minority, but cedh was my escapism. I'm a father of 2. I have a full time job and a mortgage. My once a month cedh night at my lgs is the only me time I get atm. I don't collect, I buy exactly what I need. I was playing Etali and now I have no real replacement for it. It was my favorite deck I've played in almost 3 decades of magic. Can't play it in casual so it's just gone now.
Allen from Mental misplay is experimenting with a new post ban Dino. As a korvold player I’m feeling you tho. I’m gonna probably try and look at some of the Asian meta lists they have been a bit more mid range for a while.
I'm in a very similar situation. I'm a father with a full-time job, and I get twice a month to cEDH with a core friend group. I was attracted to cEDH because of the quick pace of the game. We tried to play casual but the games kept dragging on. With cEDH we get many games in through the evening. One benefit I have is that I play with the same 3 other guys and we instantly agreed to Rule 0 these bans to the void where they belong. Maybe you could propose the same idea if you play with some friends at your LGS?
The argument about Mana Crypt being auto include. Can't that same argument be used for Ancient Tomb, Gemstone Caverns, and Sol Ring?
Yeah. I don’t understand how these talking heads still don’t get it…
Outside of Sol Ring, Mana Crypt is far more ubiquitous compared to those cards.
Yes
In the article, they specifically mention Sol Ring and admit that it meets all of the criteria that they lay out for mana crypt, but defend Sol Ring by saying "it's fun sometimes"
You are correct about it but I think. It came down to “do we ban like 100 cards or do we pick the stronger options?”
They chose the latter and they also probably don’t want to completely stop all quick mana or potential explosive turns but to make them less consistent. It is a matter of a lesser of 2 evils for this one.
I like the point about clones, but lotus to me felt like it enabled bad table politics mana was getting so easily avalible we were seeing atraxa in cedh and it was getting powered out consitently on turn 3 ,8 mana consitently turn 3 and this only came from the laters of mana generators we had avalible.
I would say the use for clones spiked hardest when atraxa came out and we had great reason too, people were playing 8 mana commanders with nuts etbs and everyone else ssid clone just got better.
If my whole stratagy is generate absurd amounts of mana and slam my commander repeatedly until it sticks its kinda unfun tbh.
The game is less of creative interactions and more of everybody whos not atraxa better have a cpunter ready and w can all take turns not letting that player play, the guy olaying the big commander does nothing but ask if he can cast his now 12 mana commander on turn 5 for the third time to see if the table has it again. And the whole table gets to save interation and let other big threats slide with because of the impending doom of the atraxa cast for the 4th time.
Its not competitive its roll the dice did i have enough fast mana to make 8 by turn 3 ? Very glad that shits gunna get dumpstered.
If a meta is clone heavy it probably means the threats are crazy good, and if crazy good threats are everywhere what do you interact with? If you cant interact with the crazy good threats becuase there is so many of them why play interaction? If your not playing interaction and fast mana and crazy effects are easy to come by why not kust jam like a clam ?
Basiclly we were going backwards, interaction was dropping expeneive effects were on the rise and people were slowly leaning into sharing
Thank you for actually playing some games with the new ban list! So many people are getting super mad without even trying out the new format. Your voice stands out as very level-headed and grounded.
Wonderful take on the topic. You mentioned the other formats and I have heard of them because of Moxfield and Scryfall. However I have only played Oathbreaker. I really like Oathbreaker, almost as much as EDH. I must point out that while Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt are banned in Oathbreaker, Dockside is still legal. Not as good though without the fast mana.
On the discussion of the banned cards, I do not agree with Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt at all. I do play cEDH and have recently gotten i to the tournament scene. Top 16 my first tournament (64 players) with Malcolm / Vial Smasher. Not sure how I will pivot the deck now. I used Dockside as an enabler to use Magda to cheat Hoarding Broodlord into play. I could also use the treasures to hard cast Hoarding Broodlord. I also had Dualcaster Loops and of course Underworld Breach Lines. Not to mention Thoracle and Consult. The loss of crypt, lotus, and dockside have really neutered the build. I have a tournament in three weeks and I am not aure what I will do.
I for one love the bans! For context I main Atraxa, and I see a lot of people say the deck died, but I beg to differ! I've been trying my hand at playing crucible of world effects coupled with exploration to ramp past my opponents and slingshot past them. And it hasnt been that bad as of yet, just being able to basically go up a card each turn I would have missed a land drop makes a world of a difference.
The RC literally said that cedh has no consideration, in my dream world the RC actually recognizes that commander has different play styles and accommodates with making a casual ban list and a tournament ban list. It is big enough to be its own format not a meta, and if tournaments are run and its all done within the rules committee you will not have that big of a fracture of the cedh community that your talking about. The RC needs to grow with edh, that’s my opinion.
I am not a fan of banning lotus but.. I do understand why. I built an Adeline deck for a friend that with lotus powers out his commander on turn1.
But overall I’m excited the overall price of cedh has gone down with the banns and I’m hoping I can get goshintai to that level ( slowing down other decks was a serious boost to my slow stax enchantment strategy)
Great video.
You said something really important when you started talking about Conquest specifically: "geared toward CEDH." EDH not being geared toward competitive players shouldn't take anyone by surprise. This is nothing new. Competitive players decided to do it differently, which is totally fine, but different is still different.
I'm glad that you touched on the fact that having access to data results in the same conclusions, as I've always found the backlash to be both insulting and, honestly, kind of gross. Yesterday's "Sheldon bans cards that he loses to" is today's "The RC is offloading cards and screwing over collectors!"
We need to be better than this.
I was almost done with the video and started writing a comment listing all of the commander-esque formats that have failed to gain widespread adoption. Glad I waited until the end of the video 😂
There are a lot of smart people behind these formats and they have all failed to gain any sort of broad adoption. I think the split group underestimates the benefits of remaining EDH and overestimates the ease of getting players to adopt a new format en-masse.
I'm an American, so I definitely understand the impulse to toss the tea into the harbor, throw up the one-finger victory salute to the RC, and declare independence. I really do get it. Beyond the phisplophocal and emotional issues though (no bans without representation!), I think there is precious little evidence to indicate that a split would improve the long term health of cEDH. I think there's a good chance it would diminish it.
Mine is probably an unpopular opinion: banning Crypt, JLo and Dockside just removed significant barriers to entry. And with it, you want to break away and start your own CEDH group. And people are more acceptable of proxies now. Why not make the most of the bannings?
You say it is a barrier and the proxy are allowed, it have no sense, CEDH always be proxy friendly. Keeping it in other side, one CEDH deck is 3000$ and this 3 cards was 300-400. If you think it was a barrier, Leon eye diamond, intuition, one ring, chrome mox, mox diamond etc etc etc still are
This is the kind of video that I like. Not a heated video posted the day of about how everything was wrong, but a calculated, thought-out video about how everything is impacting the format. This was really well done.
And as a side note, please be nice to people
If we're voting for people to help cEDH management, then I nominate Ryan to be speaker of the house. Love you and thank you for being a voice of reason and empathy in the community ❤
what about a point system for cards that can set decks in certain Tiers? That way you can ban certain cards for tiers let’s say tiers 7 and below. And if you play those cards, no matter the deck, you’re automatically in the high power/cedh tier
Instead of specific card tiers, which would be a hell to put in practice fairly, just use cards price, thats your natural card tier. So, decks capped to 1.000 USD could be a tier, for example.
@@thiagoschernikau4769 I can dig it
I believe the format Canadian Highlander already does something along these lines, just its more of a 1v1 format.
@@galarosr248 I see! With my idea you would set decks with a maximum points for each tier with no maximum points on tiers that are considered high power/cedh. Some cards, like Mana Crypt, would auto include into the higher power tiers. A banlist would still be implemented not to completely homogenize the top tiers. It will take a lot of work and in my experience anything great takes hard work.
Great video. It takes a lot to recognize your own up to your initial emotional reaction as valid as it is and come out later with a great analysis on why everything is ok. Superb explanation and super informative.
Yo I drank the dune-juice. Tatyova shows the fuck up in a few months
When you were covering the Rc decision, I was surprised you didn't pick up on the attitude they had towards Sol Ring. Because the exact same argument they had on that also applies to crypt.
Basically, the thing that sucks about the RC is the absolute lack of consistency and follow through.
Wizards will not ban sol ring Because soldering is in now and every precon. They make that loses them if that card is banned.
Hundreds of thousands o dollars. They would have to rework their Entire printing strategy
@heath1948 Wotc have very little to do with bans in edh
The biggest issue with EDH having any kind of banlist at all, is it is a primarily casual format.
When cards get banned from 60 cards, for better or worse, it's based on competitive tournament data. EDH isn't a tournament format, so every ban is going to be based on vibes. It's how we ended up with an insane looking banlist where Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, and Time Vault sit alongside Coalition fucking Victory and Sylvan god damn Primordial.
In my opinion, the genuine best thing for EDH as a whole is to completely abandon a banlist. Let casual players rule zero their way to appropriate power level games, and let cEDH players play Singleton Vintage which is what the format basically was.
No banlists, use tierlists instead. Removed the deck power level convo, unites cedh and commander, and means all cards have a home.
As a main Duel Commander player who plays some cEDH on the side, Dockside Extortionist is perfectly reasonable in a 1v1 setting. Unlike Commander, traditional aggro is ubiquitous in the format and your opponent might not even have a single artifact or enchantment for it to do anything. Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt are a different story however. Remove them from the ban list and the pitchforks come out.
I can genuinely say that I have believed that a competitive form of commander should be its own format well before this past week’s bans. Yes, the new format would not be exactly the commander that we know. I believe innovation is necessary for progress. Commander is a casual format, that was fan made. It caught on over a number of years and went through several evolutions to reach its current state. A New format would have to be distinct in itself, that part is true. However, it also needs time to germinate. I love your channel, Playing with Power. But even the initial statement at the beginning of your videos “playing with the most powerful cards in the most powerful formats” should inevitably continue to progress into its own singular entity and hints to as much in its very utterance, if It is allowed to happen organically , I think it will be a fantastic new format that people will enjoy evermore over time and this new format will thrive. I know that several other formats have come and gone, but some of them have stuck around and it’s only through taking action to make it happen that these things are possible in the first place. I hope and pray that competitive commander continues to evolve and become its own distinct entity, but naturally and organically.
Tiny Leaders got kinda big.
eh, I don't see why people are so up in arms and want to split cEDH from EDH, I mean its already in the name cEDH is "COMPETITIVE edh", ergo it is the competitive version of its namesake, EDH. I would just roll with the punches and get to playing with the new bans in mind. Its not like we havent seen this before considering the fact that we all play card games, and games like this are no stranger to bans. I used to play YUGIOH and that game doesn't have rotation and has some powerful cards and combos, but players already are expecting bans when they need to happen and are sad when their favorite card/combo is banned out of existance, making their current deck unplayable, but we move on to the next broken deck. Tthat's how I see it and that's how Im going to play it out. Stop whining, people. Stay Calm, play cEDH.
14:36 korvold is dead in CEDH, kinnan or magda will win before korvold be casted. The new meta isn't slower, is only cheaper. Big commanders are out. The best deck was rogsilas and now is better... The bann is a no sense
I get the cedh = edh argument. I do. I really do. I also feel that after the growth over the last few years it has really become its own thing(reminded of the post-Ravnica/Theros rotation when Modern got really popular with player growth and loving/upgrading their various decks), and if there isn't a split then.... I would suggest that there needs to be more work (and honestly more bans) from the RC to delineate power levels for us, as this does nothing to fix the "rule 0" / "it's a 7, bro" issue, which I feel is actually the main problem and is just gonna keep coming back up and maybe even get worse.
So like how WotC controls 60-card constructed - modern, legacy, vintage, etc - let the CAG/RC set some edh "format" expectations. Like, let a cedh tier exist, with fast mana, coalition victory, no flash, and the izzet otter. Let the people play with the stronger, faster stuff. Call it Daft Punk, idc. Then a more casual one (names are a work in progress, clearly) with the current banlist. Whatever the baseline "vision" is for EDH. Then another one, with no free commander spells, even less fast mana(and maybe it's just me, but if I was grim monolith, mana vault, or mox ___ I would be pretty worried about how long I have left right now), flash unbanned, etc. And then one for straight Battleship.
And seriously tho, free the izzet otter. Banned as companion, whatever. He did nothing wrong.
Speaking as somebody who was... Very vocal in the cEDH community after the banlist, I've since separated myself entirely from the wildfire debate that's been going on. The level of toxicity that I received both in public and private messages was far too much to bare. It was nearly impossible to have a reasonable conversation with anyone, because emotions quickly got involved. The amount of times I was able to stop the conspiracy theories and revolutionary vitriol for one night, I'd wake up and it'd start up twice as bad.
It's a very volatile time. Maybe I'll return in the future... But I've since completely removed myself from the community. I've been debating on selling off my high-end staples due to how bad things got, because I'm not sure I want to deal with it again. I just hope things get fixed up in the future. Thanks for the great video, PWP.
"Adapt or die" should be the creed of a true competitive player. I'm shocked at the lack of competitive spirit being shown by so-called cEDH players.
Because there were people that literally are technicians that gravitate towards one and only one commander. The band completely made their deck unplayable. Try and look at it from their point of view? Our attitude is now, tough luck?
@@uscgckatwalker nothing new in competitive MTG
Its less change and more a lot of players now have to re work decks and likely completely scrap others. Its crap like this ban that leaves bad taste in peoples mouth.
Interesting to hear your thoughts and I especially appreciated your covering the edh spin-off formats and those banlists. I knew some of them, but as you said not most, and it was interesting to learn that EDH, with its ban signposts, not every problem card approach was actually late to banning those particular cards. Provided some helpful perspective on this whole thing. Also enjoyed your tone in framing the conversation you're trying to have. Good job
Thanks for mentioning Rocco. Day 1 in the discord was a bit rocky but the brewers put heads down and we have some solid lists. Tutor in command one is good 😊
A long watch, but this definitely opened my eyes to the other side of the argument. I appreciate the thorough discussion; you made some great points. I'm still salty, but definitely more understanding now 😊
This was spoken like a therapist. So spot on about emotions. I think this was really well thought out and really well articulated! Thank you for this.
Great, thoughtful takes. I really appreciate your thorough articulation of these very reasonable views. I massively agree with the majority of them! Glad to see these perspectives being voiced to contrast all the rage.
If you hadn't mentioned that there was no script I wouldn't have noticed. Very good video, very well presented and reasoned points.
This feels eerily nostalgic to me, the first video that I saw from this channel was the podcast about flash being banned, been here ever since, thanks for all the content and here’s to many more!
I'm thinking about building Sram storm now that Dockside count doesn't matter.
Incredible video! Love the tone and outlook and how well you were able to get your viewpoint across! We need more of this kind of content
Great take Ryan. This actually has me wanting to get back into cedh.
To reinforce why spliting the format won't be best as a solution, look at the history of the Captain format.
Captain was originally created during high emotional time in the format over The Walking Dead secret lair. They were going to have community votes over format decisioms and bans. In at most a year, the format went defunct because of power struggles among the leadership and community harassment
Commander is a social format. We're here to have fun, and have fun TOGETHER
Captain failed because you had trolls and a horrible leadership. The RC do not care about CEDH. They specifically say so. Why keep feeding to their egos? Until they ban every possible CEDH staple and we are left just playing Precons? Yes that might be too much but they put the line in the sand.
Dockside was the Primeval Titan of cEDH.
JLK said it well, if you didn't own or didn't use these cards, you're not the ones losing out.
If people don't want to use cards, don't use them, dont play against them, simple, don't take away my ability to decide what I want to play
New meta No ban commander at longest you own the card you can play 🙌🏽
Great video. I thought your points were articulated very well.
I'm mind blown nobody is talking about thoracle
You shouldn't be because the purpose of the banlist is not to curate cEDH.
The ban was aimed at casuals and thoracle doesn't show up at casual tables.
first
Rule Zero took care of the cards they just banned. Banning cards because they think players can't regulate themselves is very bad. cEDH players already played with these cards. EDH players use rule zero. Players also need to remember the ban list is just a suggestion by the committee. Play the cards that make you happy.
You advocate for the Mana Crypt ban because it is in 99% of cEDH decks. With that argument, Sol Ring should go as well, Lotus Petal, Mana Vault... then pick every color and ban the 10 or 15 staples every color run in every deck. In the end, you banned cEDH.
Exactly. It does not make sense and I’m sure they know it. They’re giving a lot of smoke trying to get people to think it is reasonable. I mean… This guy linked the freaking Mindscalpers
Consider this for a second. Mana crypt is considerably better than vault lotus petal and tbh it’s better than Sol ring. It’s better than force of will and swords to plowshares. Name a card it’s not better than? I think that’s why it’s banned, not just because it goes in every deck, but because it’s the BEST of the cards that go in every deck.
cedh should have its own ban list been saying this for a long time.
i agree with dockside and nadu ban but the other 2 i disagree. Mostly there is alot more worst cards that should be ban like cradle and other oppressing cards, but we shall see.
Mana crypt is the poster child for why I would have two seperate banlists. Dockside falls into the same camp. Jeweled Lotus should have been hit before it was released. Nadu was an obvious design mistake.
I was mad and am mad at WotC. They pushed expensive products with these banned cards to push those products. Though since EDH is a eternal casual format, no banlist is needed. RC should give nuanced guidance on what cards represent certain power levels and speed of game.
From the wotc who brought you magic 30th
Ludevic replaces Kraum
YES SPLIT FORMATS !!!
Rebrand the name and goodbye to the casuals and their ban list.
Considering millions now ignore the RC because of their stupidity no. It is the SAME FORMAT. Rule 0, if you’re a pub stomper who can only win at low power tables then that’s on you. If you’re too neckbeardy to ask someone to leave then that’s on you.
One thing that's difficult to determine: What philosophy would the CEDH side actually take if it split off?
There are a lot of people who play CEDH and share your preference for being able to play very powerful cards, and view the cutthroat aspect of one player getting to play a T1 Mana Crypt as a large part of the competitive environment. However, on the other hand, there are a lot of people who, specifically for competitive reasons (such as wanting the format to have less variance and be slower/more skill-based) actually approve of the bans, and in fact think that MORE bans should be forthcoming (particularly Thoracle).
Something I haven't seen any content creator talk about outside of a brief mention by Commedian on The Mindsculptors is whether in a perfect world where the logistical issues surrounding splitting the format were not present it would be better for the community. From what I've seen in my travels, cEDH players seem to be looked down upon and ostricized from the greater commander community as is. To then also be told by our governing body that they don't consider us when making decisions not only feels bad, but further cements that wedge between the two groups. We're already split. We just don't have people looking out for us. I do recognize the logistical problems with creating a new format. But if there is a shot at having a more competitive-focused version of this format aimed at providing the insane power level I'd imagine most of us originally fell in love with, I'm going to support it. Content creators are the face of cEDH to the outside world, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that if they have doubts and choose just to even entertain the idea it could be huge for the movement.
If it isn't another format, please stop calling it Cedh. And if it is, why follow a committee that doesn't have the best interests for that format at heart.
Mana crypt and jeweled lotus allowed for diversity, IMO
It gave commanders with higher CMC and more pips in their cost a chance of relevance. But that's something for a group of individuals with the interest of the format to discuss. Those who claim to be leaders and represent the competitive community and have courage to try to organize something like this should be appreciated.
What's the the alternative? A rules committee that clearly has a very different vision of the game. And a very different definition of fun for THEIR format.
"If you build it, he will come". Until that happens, I'm out.
We need our own competitive format. Spearhead this please. Categorizing a deck based on a power level doesn't work. (A level 7-8 deck to a casual player is more like a level 9999 deck that is ruining their fun (also, how do you quantify power level in such a way with a 100 card deck?). Making a format with specific rules and card bans sets power level. Banning fast mana is just the first step. What's next Drannith? Thoracle? It's out of our control. These bans were from a casual player's perspective. They did target CEDH players.
I get that Jeweled Lotus was not impressive if you were using an MV1 or MV2 or even 2-color MV3 Commander, but there are a large number of very meta, MV3 and MV4 commanders that run Jeweled Lotus because in a format where the most important spell in your deck is your Commander, Jeweled Lotus is just Black Lotus.
I know he's not a specifically cEDH creator, but I like JLK's story about when he had early access to Jeweled Lotus and how he told WotC when he saw that card before it was printed to just not make that card -- that card was a terrible card for the game.
I also think that just having some saturation bans targeting fast mana would be good for cEDH. The dominance of Turbo vs. Stax is a little silly, and I don't think one ban of one unconditional fast mana piece (no, I'm not counting Dockside because Dockside isn't consistently active until Turn 2) is enough to really unwind that.
Yes, cEDH needs its own ban list administered for the health of its meta.
Nadu did NOT need to be banned in cEDH, but i can understand it. Playing in tournaments with numerous Nadus, our games never went very long, and the snowball turns quickly became obvious that the game was over.
Dockside and Jeweled Lotus should never have been printed in the first place, but if they were so bad, they should've been banned years ago. Mana Crypt should've been banned in 2009 but at this point it shouldn't have been banned at all.
The fact that the reaction to these bans has been overwhelmingly negative shows how badly the RC fumbled all of this. They should be looking to UNBAN cards, not ban things
Its good to voice how unnaceptable this harrassment is but its important to note
The people doing that are unwell, i dont think any of them are doing it cause they think its perfectly acceptable behaviour
And to be honest i find it surprising how taken aback the rc seems by it. I wanna make it clear im not advocating for it at all, of course im not. But its entirely predictable. It happens to anyone making decisions that impact other people esoecially when its handled the way it was. Even more so when it impacts them financially
And im sorry but its another example of the rc seeming like a bunch of out of touch numbskulls. I feel entirely entitled to say that, its not nice to say that. But thats not harrasment. These people have no clue what theyre doing. Its like acting confused when you pants a stranger in public and they clock you in the nose
Should they have done that? No, but you kinda had to see that reaction coming. And if you didnt you shouldnt be in the position to be making these decisions
I absolutely think this was an awful decision by the rc, and handled in about the worst possible way, and for a format thats of the people for the people i dont know how these random people got into the position to be making these decisions in the firdt place. Are they elected or appointed? Of so by whom? Who in gods name are these people
I also think its incredibly weird that the people governing this format do it specifically from a "social" non competitive perspective when literally the only people these bannings impact are competitive players
And in my experience pubstompers have never made other people feel bad, theyre the ones made to feel bad if they bring a deck like that to a casual table
onestly if i had total control, id appoint the top cedh players to ban for this format. If they banned for the most fun competitive environment possible i think it would lead to a better casual environment. Waaay better than what the rc has managed, it would still have a rule zero and simply make for a balanced top end. I feel like thats exactly what bannings are for. Its uncomplicated and makes the most sense for everyone, its my experience cedh and high power comboned are about the same sized demographic as casual anyway so i think it would do the most good for everyone
You missed the point how RC specifically said they don't care about cEDH. A separate format committee WOULD care about cEDH.
Over halfway in and to not hear anything about price is a huge sigh of relief. Not sure if it'll hold up until the end of the video, the more problematic issue at hand is how long it took to ban these after they've been identified as a problem, regardless of if you believe they were right or wrong, there just isn't anything of substance that made them more banworthy earlier.
There are tons of other formats to enjoy! I came to enjoy CEDH after modern. Likewise I'm seeing people mention Canadian highlander, pauper edh, premodern etc. I'm still having a hard time finding CEDH content here on YT for some of the more fringe CEDH decklists.
Split, agree with the title. Not with the concept of a seperate banlist. There is far too many variables at play to make it an easy decision.
Love the comments about how few decks got nerfed and nothing gained anything. If you were using it for loops you can find another loop outlet. Mana crypt / Lotus you can find two replacements.
Vocal cry, please please PLEASE look at results that should be what drives these bans and it shows! Sales or player movements absolutely should not!
I'm not a CEDH player at all but I like watching cEDH content online like your channel. The cEDH players at my LGS who splinter off each commander night didn't have too much gripes about the ban announcement besides losing monetary value. They basically said the players will adjust and the meta will shift to the next set of fast mana and strategies. Seems like most of the people who were complaining were those heavily invested or have 5x copies of those cards. I have one of each of the banned cards and proxied them like 20 times for all my decks that needed them so I'm not losing sleep over the value tanking. Although I can understand why those heavily invested are upset. I'm curious what would be your breaking point of wanting to splinter off cEDH from EDH? For example, what if the RC banned all partners (I'm secretly wanting this for casual commander)?
I think what we learned from this is that cEDH players don't actually like being competitive, they just like playing with their broken toys. Banning way too powerful cards and player having to change and build new decks is nothing new for competitive play in any card game. These bans make the format less prone to unbalanced overwhelming starts, thus making the format slightly less based on luck with your opening hand, and slightly more skill oriented, which should be exactly what competitive players wan't. To me it's a bit ironic that cedh players are at the same time the ones complaining most vocally about the bans and the ones that are going to benefit the most in gameplay from them.
I'm saying this as someone who does not play CEDH, so please correct me if my perceptions miss the mark. But it does seem to me like EDH and CEDH do have enough philosophical and mechanical differences that they should be considered different formats with different ban lists. "Regular" EDH is a format where the point is to self express, take things slow, build decks that do silly things and the games should focus on ensuring everyone has a fun time and no one feels bad leaving the table. CEDH is focused on optimizing decks to win the game. Treating the two as the same format, and banning strong cards because of their (real or perceived) harmful impact on the casual side, strikes me as analogous to WotC saying "hey guys we're banning X card in both Standard and Modern, because it's too strong for Standard".
Dockside had to go; it’s too cheap to cast for what it does, it can be flickered, recurred, and enables all manner of wincons. Just a do-it-all powerhouse that should never have been printed.
Mana crypt and jeweled lotus are also obviously very powerful, but they’re less broadly useful than dockside. No one tutors for these, they aren’t even remotely common combo pieces, and they at least have some sorts of restrictions/downsides.
Wish dockside and Nadu would have been axed, and the other two were left alone.
While I feel for anyone that lost money in this or had their deck massively nerfed, I want to remind everyone cEDH demand alone does not make a card $ 100+ . Thassas Oracle, a cEDH staple without a reprint outside of a secret lair so far and a card played in some decks in Modern and Vintage is $ 20. The idea crypt was 100+ from just cEDH and vintage demand is having your eyes wide shut. Casuals played it , with the reprints even more casuals played it. It sucks for our format, but to act like it was done to hurt our format and it doesn't matter for casual is living in denial
Yes the RC missed a beautiful opportunity to draw a line in the sand about what they want for commander while giving cedh and hi power players a place to grow and evolve.
If they had shifted this way prices wouldnt have tanked. Players wouldnt have been angry and best of all you get the crazy decks out of commander and you can then easily ban more hi power cards from commander while leaving the more aggressive players a sandbox to experiment in.
This ban is great for casual commander as it keeps fast mana down. This makes games slow some giving everyone a chance to play their deck.
But this ban hurts commander because all it really did was hurt players. As such unless they split off and draw a clear line of what each form of commander that currently coexists which ends up with some players playing decks way over powered vs the casual deck. That's going to remain unless they get serious and admit commander has evolved. Without a clear line of what deck belongs were this wont stop.
Hi power/cedh needs its own home and its own ban list to allow its to continue to evolve without interfering with casual commander.
Also casual commander could evolve in its own way and bans can be easier to digest because its casual play and banning cards to facilitate that desire are good things.
Plus if it isnt banned in cedh then it still has a home to go two and financially speaking the hit wont be as bad.
So in short wotc or the RC or hell maybe us players need to change this mistake and shift commander so it can keep being the one format most magic players play in.
Just my two cents
I feel cEDH players talking about the bans is almost pointless. The bans were aimed at the casual players (if you’re causally playing these cards, idk though) If a whole subset of players are affected by negligent decision making by a group that does not care about cEDH, why should the ill affected players continue to stay in that format? New formats are created all the time, even if they never gain traction. I would argue that discouraging a splintering of the format is also stoping creativity, maybe just as much as dockside. Let people try it out. I may not like it, but I would play with anyone bold enough to do this.
Nobody wants a new format, we want a new ban list that is curated with a different philosophy.
Funny enough, the RC could have published two lists years ago and saved us from this unnecessary confrontation. One list is recommended for casual play, one for competitive play. It could have formed a sub-RC to run the second list.
Unfortunately, the RC is formed of a handful of random people with no real representation. They are self-appointed and hold a lot of power without any control or accountability.
Does Hasbro not care about losing customers b/c these guys nuke cards? Aren't they concerned about players who like to play the same game differently, taking arguments to a point where it seems like a political war of threats, insults and harassment?
In any case, it'd be great if you made a video sharing your thoughts on what this competitive ban list should be. I am sure other cards need to go and some can come back to have more than a handful of archetypes in the meta.
Some good points as usual by Ryan. I only hope that RC does learn from their decisions with this ban. Because things were indeed done wrong. Whether or not people think the bans were good, the RC didn't display good communication IMO.
As far as making a new format is concerned that is definitely a hard sell. Because all of Ryan's points would probably come to pass. It's like the church, you can nail your 95 Theses on the door but that won't be a fix all answer to your problem. But then again, WOTC ain't God and the RC sure isn't the Catholic Church. So make your own informed decisions just don't threaten people over some fancy cardboard.
After dealing with the fallout of this for a few days, I have made a conclusion. Commander players simple can’t build good decks anymore. If the lists they copy from online don’t contain the answers for cards that are wrecking them in their local meta, they hate on them & advocate for their banning.
People act like this isn’t Magic, which is full of removal & counters to almost everything. If 3 people with no answers are all relying on each other to deal with explosive starts & problematic cards, then who is really to blame?
I speak as a casual player of Commander. I legit am happy with the recent bans, but I'm not here to be negative. I honestly feel cedh and tedh players would benefit from branching into their own format with it's own banlist. As cedh games are fast, I feel it's fitting to be calling this as "Blitz" Format. Basically, it's cedh, so nothing is different. I'm not familiar with tedh, but I feel they're similar to cedh. Hence why I grouped them both into Blitz.
I would like to hear thoughts about Blitz. Is it a good idea?
OK SO... sol ring, chrome mox, mox diamond, mana vault and the one ring all should be banned in cEDH, got it. This IS the death of tournament cEDH and why I just sold my collection, thanks.
I have these cards. It took a while to get these cards. I didn't put these cards in non-cedh decks because I found them less fun. I think the format is healthier without them. I think the mana rocks should've never been banned out of precedence. I'm pretty split.
Okay take your Mana Crypt excuse and apply it to Sol Ring, Ancient Tomb, Mox Diamond, and potentially Chrome Mox. I do not agree with your take at all. Crypt did not need to get banned, agreeing with RC ban is nothing more than a circle jerk.
So how about we have Commander (casual) and actual EDH for competive play. Two separate ban lists, two different formats. RC gets commander, and WOTC gets EDH.
Kind of surprised that since the only thing you're really open to is a collective voice for the cedh quotent of players, but didn't mention the Competitive Commander Collective that ComedIan
Higher, Lua Stardust, and Ken Baumann have created and supported.
I dont really disagree with your points or anything like that, it just felt like a lot of knocking down strawmen while only kinda suggesting any better idea. Not to say you have to single handly come up with the solution to the format by yourself, I'm genuinely not trying to be rude or anything, it just felt like you only kind of mentioned a solution and shot down any ideas people had.
That said, I appreciate your balanced take, I'm certainly not angry or weird because we have different opinions, and im still going to support the channel.
You really are like the only person who’s conversation didn’t just deform to “but muh value”
I’m pretty sure this banlist was geared toward cEDH or at least had the most weight in that decision and I agree that these are warranted in terms of competition.for the regular EDH folks can still use it still. In yugioh it is usually better to hit consistency rather than kill deck completely. Which I think this was the best way to make meaningful changes.
The play pattern argument is fine. I'm on board with it but It seems inconsistently upheld. Why has Krark sakashima been allowed to exist for so long? That's going to be most people's problem here. Why is gaea's cradle legal? Mana vault? I'm not sure I disagree with the arguments you make on an exterior layer. I do think as I get deeper and begin making comparisons to other cards and how they play and warp a format I start seeing more issues. If we want a healthy more diverse format Thoracle should have been banned forever ago. Good video though. Appreciate your insight on the matter.
9:00 im not agree with your comparative between nadu and paradox. If you have paradox you have all the mana to use instants, to counter or whatever you want, you will have a "infinite" draw with the one ring etc etc its not the same. Nadu is the same as big Etali clon deck or krark sakasima with the coins and both are still there... Maybe not, etali go away without mana crypt and jeweled lotus but you know
This is one of the few videos I’ve watched this week that’s actually helped me process these bans. Still haven’t updated decks but that’s probably gonna be next weekend’s plan. Thanks for sharing.
no need to split it own group.
we all know RC is fault for abusing market. shame on them!
Everything was doing fine until Mana Crypt and Jeweled lotus? they dont have combo unlike other spell!
I’m not for a new format, I’m for adjusting the banlist for cedh tournaments.
I have to follow edh ban lists because that’s what TO’s go off of generally. I’d be all for an addendum adopted by TO’s, that reflect a different ban list for tournament play.
As much as I want to play my Jlo/dockside and mana crypt with my small playgroup, we can’t because we attend 3-4 big tournaments a year, and a handful of smaller local tournaments(50-60 people) every month or two. If we played the old(banned) cards, we wouldn’t be playtesting accurately for a tourney. This wouldn’t split the format, I feel. Maybe it would. Does that make sense. Thoughts?
I'm not an out and out CEDH player, although I have 1 deck which is within throwing distance and wouldn't get laughed out of the room. I play EDH for fun as well, and as long as people are having fun, I don't mind getting curb stomped. Personally, I'd be fine with the Lotus and Crypt coming back. Those cards I would say have a significantly high value floor, it's really hard not to get some value out of it. I do however support the Dockside ban. I do it because it has suchhhhhhh a high value ceiling. In a 4 player pod, as a two drop, worst you'll probably net is 3-4 mana. However, you resolve it late game, double it's ETB, flicker it, and so on and all of a sudden you have multiple Ancient Red Dragon's amounts of treasure which can present an insurmountable lead. Dockside is also just innocuous enough, especially to new players, that people won't explicitly Rule 0 it, but ends up feeling really degenerate at lower power level tables because it's not like people aren't just going to play their mana rocks. Dockside was the one card in the format that I've wanted the banhammer to hit for awhile now. So I'm happy with that, and i guess banning the bird, but the CAG banning Lotus and Crypt seem unecessary. Just my thoughts.
I think the banning of Jewelled lotus sends a clear message from the RC to Wizards of the coast: "don't mess with our format and print things that is only good for commander". For that same reason, they should have banned all the planeswalkers that say "this can be your commander" on them, because that text is format warping in a way, that I don't think Sheldon intended. I hate these commanders to be honest, I hate they are a thing. there is a format for using planeswalkers as your commander. The sad thing is, many of them are really powerful. I think Wizards of the Coast messed with the format and did irreversible damage to it by adding these powerful commanders.
What i honestly find funny is that it is mostly casuals complaining about the bans. I am complaining as there is no consistency
JLK said it well, if you didn't own or didn't use these cards, you're not the ones losing out.
If people don't want to use cards, don't use them, simple, don't take away my ability to decide what I want to play
@@KingSkinny-ww2pl Despite Josh being a casual player he sounds more and more like a competitive player as he is willing to go against anything
But then again at it's core Magic very well is a competitive game even for casuals
wrong
If you play with a brew group you already know that just dockside alone being banned makes the format much more healthy. Will we probably just fall back to Tymna/Thas as the best deck.
The decks that did not lose out like mono blue, they have a power cap regardless - they can only be so good URZA is never going to dominate anything (this is just an example). That's all that is really needed, just make so no deck is 60% dominant and has hard counters... healthy format. No matter how good Tymna/Thas becomes now, it still falls into that win rate... its not going to just be the best deck by a long-shot (if it even turns out to be the best deck).
Everything is slowed down so jeweled lotus needs go... the real issue is that jeweled lotus should have never been printed.
Lets be honest Korvold is not really good, and it only got worse. Maybe the format slowing down a turn helps, but its still a bad pile with no blue.
Sissay is pretty dead, you would have to be in a real dog-shit skill-level tournament to place with it with no dockside... that was 90% of the engine.
Anybody says that Kraum did not get kicked in the balls is a moron/they don't actually play in tournaments and play at the LSG.
As a Krark/Sakashima player, even "I" hated playing against Nadu decks and I have heard a myriad of players compare Nadu to K/S, but say it's just even more unfun to play against. Not sure if the meta agrees on that, but that was the consensus I got was and I am glad for the bird to be gone. That being said, regarding Crypt/Lotus/Dockside, I'm on the side of agreeing with all of them deserving a ban. Yes, this drastically changes the format, but honestly, I feel like we needed it. Just as Ryan said, like with Flash/Paradox Engine, any deck that was even in discussion for viable had to compete against those decks and Dockside especially made it more like if you weren't playing it, you were neutering yourself.
As a side note, from the groups I have posted my opinion on, I have gotten a lot of vitriol for my opinion and I can understand it to an extent, but basically anyone who was for the ban was touted as a "loser" or someone who "didn't understand" or in my case, an inexperienced player.
All I have to say to those detractors is (and this is also coming from a budget/casual commander setting), I cannot tell you how many people I played that became so reliant on these cards that they said their deck couldn't function without them, and that is NOT healthy as far as play OR deckbuilding.
Well.... I tried shifting my kriik to a different deck and ended up getting bored through 3 games..... I think it is time to quit and move on.... To a non-WOTC hobby
I’m happy they banned lotus and crypt. They wanted to reduce the frequency of explosive turn 1-2 plays. I believe Dockside is too good but, it didn’t create those explosive turn 1-2 plays. The rule 0 talk may work in playgroups, it’s not that good in random pods either in person or online.
Those explosive turn 1 plays set the tone for an unpleasant 1-2 hr game (it’s hard to concede once the game has started).