Live From The Table - Former Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren. Iran, Gaza, Anti-Semitism, Obama...
Вставка
- Опубліковано 15 чер 2024
- Historian, Member of Knesset, Ambassador, and Author Michael Oren joins us for an interview analyzing the current conflict.
Takeaways
Israel faces challenges in responding to Iran's strike while avoiding triggering a regional conflagration and alienating allies.
The concern of Iran obtaining nuclear weapons and the potential risks involved.
The changing policies of the United States towards Israel and the impact on the Israeli response.
The psychological impact of the conflict and the rise of anti-Semitism. The conversation highlights the cultural struggle surrounding the terms 'Israel' and 'Palestine', which encompass a wide range of meanings and ideologies.
The Obama administration's worldview and misrepresentation of historical events, particularly regarding the Arab-Israeli negotiations, are discussed.
The conversation explores the challenges and complexities of the settlements in Israel and the need for creative thinking to achieve peace.
Michael Oren emphasizes the importance of recognizing the rights and identities of both Israelis and Palestinians in order to move towards a resolution.
Sound Bites
"Courage, a little luck would help at this point."
"If they are humiliated or shown to be impotent, that might lead them to the conclusion that we can't put up with this anymore."
"If Iran were to break out and have a nuclear weapon, then we might as well just pack our bags and move somewhere."
"This war has given us clarity on a lot of issues. One of them is on the nature and extent of antisemitism."
"When people say Palestine in America today, they mean many things. They mean socialism. They mean LGBT rights, strangely, because there are no LGBT rights in Palestine, or women's rights. They mean anti-colonialism. They mean anti-nationalism."
"His worldview was a democratic worldview, which included respect for international institutions, a strong feeling about Palestinians, a reticence to use military force, and unfamiliarity with military force."
00:00 Introduction and Personal Connections
10:27 Risk and Consequences: Israel's Decision-Making
27:21 The Lingering Effects: Rise of Anti-Semitism and Psychological Impact
43:38 The Complexities of the Israeli Settlements
51:50 Exploring Alternative Approaches to Peace - Розваги
My goddamn hero.Oren is brilliant,polished,knowledgeable and articulate.so smooth.He should run for PM
Like before the first word was said. That's my level of confidence in this convo.
Why is this the best podcast covering the conflict? I’m happy it is. But why?
@@dmoneythatbigdudeFirstly, Noam is very soothing to listen to. Personally. His voice and tone are pleasant on the ears. That said, if Norman Finkelstein sounded like Noam, I'd switch channels ;).
I'm constantly surprised at how well read Noam is. You genuinely feel like your listening to a conversation as opposed to a debate. There are many opinions he has espoused I disagree with, but he's more of a classical liberal (as they're called today), not a leftist. It's not his identity.
Michael Oren’s book Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East is a great read.
LET’S GO!!! Keep it coming!!!!
Thank you Noam.
You know what this is your best interview.
Thanks for this. Great episode, very informative. Hope for a more optimistic future.
You did it again Noam. Another largely amazing interview ( though who's side blew the connection? Terrible to where he is talking over you because he thinks you stopped and statement or question at least a dozen times ) . I'm not your mentor but NOAM I know you have your own life and I have no way of knowing if it's your calling/ destiny but if I could bless-urge you that you spend even more efforts at these interviews with Jews' subjects and Israeli subjects BECAUSE you bring them down avenues seldom addressed in English. Then get writers to edit the transcripts with notes to fill in explanations and sources for the masses- you could throw in the show notes to links and monetize it with ads any way you want because it will be disseminated much farther and more eyeballs will see it because in print they will read much more easily what millions will not have inclination of time to listen to. IMPACT will increase by millions in written form. BECAUSE YOU ARE - FOR YOUR AGE- ONE OF THE BOMB INTERVIEWERS and the benefit long term by getting some of your approaches into the field of vision of people - dispelling false frames- would be of benefit to countless people who needs to see real FRAMINGS. Thank you for your Benny morris and oren and even my gosh your bomb rashid k. Interview, Sir. ( Now as always you are invited and embraced to learn Torah).
Good stuff! Thank you, Noam!
Best episode and podcast EVER + feel always grateful listening to Ambassador Oren on endless levels 🫡
Thank you gentlemen, outstanding conversation 🫶
Superb interview.
I’ve been learning all I can about this conflict for months, maybe years now and after finding this podcast a few weeks ago, I keep hearing Noam make some of the most incisive, important points about this situation. Sharp guy here.
Thank you for this amazing episode!
WHAT AN INCREDIBLE DEPTH OF ANALYSIS AND ELOQUENCE!
OREN MUST TAKE A MORE ACTIVE POLITICAL ROLE RIGHT NOW, FOR THE SAKE OF ALL OF US. HIS VOICE OUGHT TO BE HEARD LOUDLY AND CONSTANTLY.
I’ve never heard of this dude but this is my fav episode so far.
Michael is so blinded by his Biases and close-mindedness, I feel sorrow for his blindness to having true Clarity.
Noam - your getting amazing guests. Keep em coming
REQUEST: If it was possible to include the timestamps in the podcast version of the discussion, that'd be a big help.
32:00 brilliant point
The reason I posted the earlier comment under this video , before i watched it is simple..I've watched every single video you guys have put out on this issue, andvthat is how I felt, I posted it before I watched this latest one, because I had just finished a video that you turned the comments off .
My moms second cousin,Michael Oren.
I believe the casualties of children in Gaza being recorded as such a large portion of deaths is just based on the large percentage of children present in Gaza. If every fifth Gazan is a child then they might assume that every fifth unintended civilian death is the death of a child. I’m not sure it’s substantiated beyond that, but I feel it follows. If innocents are not targets and they still die, you would imagine their demographics to be reflected. It doesn’t represent an intention to kill children necessarily.
At worst, it is criminally negligible ...
There is maybe another reason also, Hamas recruits very young people to be fighters/terrorists. Even 10 years old boys or even younger are trained in UNRWA "schools" to hate and kill Jews.
In addition, several statisticians have proven the Hamas casualty figures are fictional. For one thing, they don't count Hamas members as combatants. For another, if you believed their figures, you would have to conclude that women and children are seldom in proximity to each other. Essentially, Hamas lies, and nobody should believe them.
What happened near that hospital???
@@KryMoore huh
At minute 40:00 the moderator condemned Abbas for not accepting Israel as a Jewish in a proposal by Obama. Why should abbas accept that? Israel should be a state of its people.
this podcast is a blessing! Thumbs up from Germany 🥨
No way y’all just quoting Henry Kissinger casually
Israel will winning GBY Israel Shalom Sabbath
have to teach that peaceful resistance like mlk jr and gandhi is the way to peace. and must always condemn violence as amoral.
Pacifism can work when you have a reasonable negotiating partner, as India had in Gandhi's time. Hamas, by contrast, is an internationally recognized terrorist organization whose explicit aim is to eliminate not only the state of Israel but every Jew on the planet. The math is remarkably simple: if Hamas laid down its arms, there would be peace tomorrow; if Israel laid down its arms, there would be no Israel.
@@HotelierNYC yes i agree. we must teach the palestinians to only use peaceful resistance and never justify violence or terrorism. peace is an idea that must be taught as the state of nature is violence.
@@michaelmoskowitz3212 been there, done that, didn't work. you should research the great march of return
@@Dudemeister i know about great march and it was a good first start but it wasnt peaceful and there has to be many tries. they threw molotov cocktails and lit tires and rolled them into the soldiers. mlk jr and gandhi trained their protesters to not fight back so that when they were attacked their moral superiority would be clear for all to see. but the palestinians have always tried everything at the same time including violence.
That’s soooo not true! It’s social media! We see it! It’s horrible
It's only his imagination that rescuing the hostages was ever an objective. He seems biased in favor of war. Disappointing.
Iran humiliated or impotent !!!!
This was literary the logic of Golda in the first days of 1973 war
Wasn't
" We don't think of ourselves as victims anymore."
I would leave it there for everyone to judge which side is more delusional.
I don’t understand this comment. Can you explain?
@@joge2468 That Jews don't think of themselves as victims is an absurd proposition. There is hardly anyone critical of Israel that hasn't been labelled anti-semitic or a self-hating Jew.
@@Yogesh-jq9jj Oh. You hate Jews. I thought you were making a different point.
@@joge2468 You are proving my point. Without a sense of irony.
@@Yogesh-jq9jj That’s not victimhood. I’m not whining about it. I’m just calling a spade a spade. You attributed a negative stereotype to entire race of people. It’s no different than me saying all Muslim are barbarians. And if you want to talk victimhood, nobody does it better than the Palestinians, who apparently have no agency.
At minute 26:00 the moderator says israel has only killed 30k Palestinians and thus its not a genocide. The serbs killed 5000 bosnians in seberenica and it was classified as a genocide.
The International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruling on Srebrenica, issued on February 26, 2007, was a significant legal decision regarding the genocide that occurred during the Bosnian War. The court found that the massacre of over 7,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys in Srebrenica in July 1995 constituted genocide. However, the ICJ ruled that Serbia itself was not directly responsible for committing genocide.
Free Palestine 🇵🇸
Citing a number is antisemitic? I need a list of what is antisemitic in order not to offend anyone.
The best solution probably would have been for Bibi to announce "look, we can't live with this, and the international community won't accept the necessary military response". What they do is lock down the border. Shut off electricity to Gaza, and tell the world you have 1 year to find a place for these people.
The International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruling on Srebrenica, issued on February 26, 2007, was a significant legal decision regarding the genocide that occurred during the Bosnian War. The court found that the massacre of over 7,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys in Srebrenica in July 1995 constituted genocide. However, the ICJ ruled that Serbia itself was not directly responsible for committing genocide.
A way to explain this to Americans is to imagine Tijuana (gaza) as terrorist cartel state rejected by Mexico (Egypt). Imagine decades of terror planning and October 7th happening in San Diego and the music festival being attended by their relatives. Imaging over 100 hostages being held in Tijuana. Would everyone be saying Cease Fire Now?
Yes, ceasefire today
there would be no tj left
@@ai_com Shut up Robot
"If you can't feel safe having a rave next to a concentration camp, where can you?" -Kurt Metzger
@@Nikola_C gaza was/is not a concentration camp....so who cares what some yutz says
just another attempt to shame the jews over the holocaust
At minute 20:00 Oren says the US has killed more civilians since 9/11 then Israel. Two iron clad allies accused the other for killing more civilians
It is a mistake to use the Bible as justification for claims to any land. It will be rejected by anyone who doesn't consider the Bible orthitative. All that is relevent is international law. The interesting thing is Israel's legal claim to Palestine is just as strong as it's historical or biblical claim. The league of nations created the mandate of Palestine which gave Jews the right to settle in Palestine and create a country. It did not specify any restrictions to that settlement. Before 1948 there was no legal document that gave any land of Palestine away from Jews. The Partition plan was rejected therefore non binding legally. Israel has a legitimate claim to all of the land in what was Mandatory Palestine.
If israel has a legitimate claim to all of the land that was Mandatory Palestine it also has a responsibility to give all the people in that land the same rights.
1. they give the same rights to everyone in israel proper.
2. tell that to the palestinians that promise peace only when all jews are gone and the few they allow to remain will be second class citizens.
When you read Norse mythology, it is set in Scandinavia, because that is where those people lived. When you read Greek mythology, it is set in Greece, because that is where Greeks lived. You don't have to believe the stories in the Tanakh, even though many of the names are also on archeological artifacts, but you must admit that Jews come from Israel. Note that wherever one digs in Israel, the older archeological relics have Hebrew or proto-Hebrew, but not Arabic.
Exactly. I was quite amazed to hear this religious dribble from him
I don’t disike Noam on a personal level, but this is more echo chamber content and this podcast isn’t trying very hard to broaden its scope lately. I suggest listening to the recent talk between Naomi Klein and Mehdi Hasan on the new Zeteo channel on the topic of disconnecting your wonderful Jewish identity from the settler colonial oppression generating violence in the middle east. Simone Zimmerman’s movie Israelism is also very imsightful and offers new and better future avenues than hardly anything discussed on the comedy cellar podcast, as much as these people seem perfectly appreciable when not discussing their far right politics.
I feel we are not addressing the root cause of resistance, but just talking about consequences. Israel should address issues of Palestinian refugees, equal civil rights, harsh discrimination, and injustice. However, all above require rethinking and core Israel strategies and policies. Human cannot sincerely happy while being injust to people around you. Many ways the covenant with Hashem is broken if people dont follow ten Commandments.....
You don't understand the root cause. The root cause is Israel's existence. Israeli Arabs have always had equal rights. The Palestinian Liberation Organization began in 1963. The root cause is that Hamas and Islamic Jihad consider all of the land from the River to the Sea Palestinian territory and as long as any land is in the hands of Israel then residdtence is necessary.
@@rennyskiathitis8178 yes, everything was going just fine for the palestinians up until 1963, then bad things happened
@@Dudemeister For one thing, in 1963 everybody knew they were Arab invaders, who were illegally occupying Israeli land. They hadn't even stolen the name they falsely use now, at that time. That fiction was the work of an Egyptian, with no connection to any part of Israel, who was trained in propaganda by the Soviets.
@@deborahfreedman333 yes, Israel is being occupied by Arab invaders, how perfectly accurate
Israel 🇮🇱 should never compromise !
Gaza isn't the most densely populated place on Earth.
Why does everyone keep saying this? Is there a reason?
7:01 You mean it wouldn't require F/A-18 pilots recreating Star Wars?
for all of his wisdom, Oren gets some things wrong & offers some things about which a wiser man would be reticent.
re obama: it's true that he is not controlled by a disabling anti-Jewish prejudice, at least on the personal level. but, there are few ppl who in the contemporary world have done more to harm Israel & the Jewish People - and, he is absolutely content to have done so.
true, but his mind was perverted by faux academic rashid khalidi
Meanwhile… somewhere else… Cornell West’s sensationalism is being quelled by Žižek. Looking forward to when you elevate the discussion with someone of his quality. Should have seen how goofy Cornell looked in his company, and I truly wonder how you’d fare if you listened more than spoke. Not all intellectuals are of the same substance 🌱♾️
Iran 100. Israel 0
The rise of antisemitism compared to the collective punishment of Gaza seems a little one sided. And as far as the history my layman understanding would be a evicted person coming back and squatting in a home with the current owner having zero to do with the previous situation.
Words hurt more to people with victim mentality.
Love all the responses, its not required that anybody " believes " in my compassion for both sides.
It doesnt require an " eye in the sky" to see that this is an absolute slaughter. I'm not even in the camp that claims genocide.
And yes, the number of casualties DOES matter, but that isnt what makes Isreal such an amoral actor in this, its the way it has been conducted, and the lies, and the contempt for people caught in the middle, who have almost nothing left.
The Palestinians have been treated as inhuman, and the fact that Isreal claims the moral high ground, but blames Hamas for everything happening on the ground, just isnt good enough.
Guess what, it is ypur responsibility to make sure those people dont starve, and that they arent bereft of any insfrastructure at all before the end of this.
You want the moral highground? Well that is what is required .
Palestinians got themselves into this position by refusing every settlement offer since 1937. Sorry, but I just can't feel bad for them when their leaders have steered them to where they are today. They must choose peace over violence.
I’ve never seen a war where the civilians were walled in and forbidden to flee for safety. This to me is the main moral crime of this war. You want to flatten cities, you have to allow people to evacuate, have a valid plan for providing/distributing food and aid, and a plan for life and peace afterward. We’ll find more about Israel’s goals in this war by the outcome. Occupation and settlement? Or an end to the blockade and rebuilding homes and necessary infrastructure? While besieging and bombing hospitals, where will the population now recieve medical care?
The absolute lack of empathy is unsettling. I’m not sure why anyone should expect an occupied people to behave desirably for the occupation force. On the other hand I understand Israeli fear of a free Palestine but you can’t live like this forever whatever the solution. Israel being the only state on the land, I basically see Israel as the controlling gov/power of the entire region and for this reason, all people there are Israel’s responsibility. They may allow independent governors but it’s Israel who rules and that’s why the West Bank is considered apartheid.
Yes, they should have been evacuated to where they invaded Gaza from, Egypt. For some obscene reason, Biden puts all the pressure on Israel, and none on Egypt to take back their people.
so why isnt egypt allowing them in?
99.9 percent of what you wrote here is a total lie, or ignores facts on the ground
Why won’t Noam have people like Daniel Levy or Peter Beinart on? Lately it’s been a strew of guests who are just in a circle jerk of denial.
why?
who is daniel levy?
petey is a sad joke and an apikores
you can watch him when he goes on democracy now and spews his garbage
because every media outlet has them on as the "israeli" despite them representing 1% of israeli opinion. Turn on BBC, Sky, etc. you will see Levy
you're answering your own question
Because those men are well known liars, and add nothing to an intelligent conversation.
The people that listen to these podcasts seem completely out of touch and brainwashed
The settlements issue is not complex. Jewish immigrants from Europe and America want to live on a piece of a land where SOME (not all) of their ancestors lived 2000 years ago. Michael Oren has non-jewish ancestors. For some reason, despite him being the descendant of non-jews also and despite his ancestors having lived for centuries in europe and america he feels he has the same right to live in let's say Hebron as a palestinian farmer whose family has lived there for centuries. How is that not religious brainwashing? How is that not racism?
Being a 1/16 native american is not the same as being a native american in the 15th century. He is absolutely deluded.
2000? how about right up to 1948
no arab lived on the land for centuries
keep revising history
@@lesweizman388 this is absolutely not true. There were massacres of arabs perpetrated by jewish immgrants from europe long before 1945
Jews never left Israel. They were just fluctuating between minority or majority. Many Jewish refugees returned to Israel that is true. But they are still the indigenous people of the land.
@dankoKn the secular jews who found Israel didn't do that for religious reason. They were not talking about their ancestors being there 1000s years ago. Their main reason was to establish a jew- majority country where the jews will no longer be persecuted. They created an alliance with the religious jews to attract people into the land.
@@dankoKnyou now have radical religious settlers who believe that God gave them all the land. Making this issue a religious issue is dangerous
I just can't...the way people have to tie themselves into pretzels to justify Isreals response is shameful.
I'm not anti Isreal, nor pro- Palestinian, I'm a human being with compassion for both sides..however, it's so crystal clear, who has the most blood on their hands.
Shameful.
You posted this comment within minutes of the video being uploaded. How could you possibly have watched it first?
You don't measure who is right in a war by the number of dead people on the other side. That makes no sense whatsoever. If you have a bad cause but kill fewer people, then you still have a bad cause. If you have a good cause and kill more people, then you can still have good cause.
P.s. how did you manage to watch the whole video before posting. Are you showing your bias? 😳
Crystal clear from your personal eye in the sky? and as for your compassion.. keep it. We don't believe it anyway.
such a dumb take
Leaflets, text, phone calls and advance notice telling the enemy time of arrival. Is the standard for war the Arab-Muslim conflicts?
Your not gonna get truth from an Israeli ambassador
As far as I can tell, any factual statements Oren made were true. A bunch of statements were about his personal opinions, but I don't see why he would lie about what his opinions are.