Ranking Every Destiny 2 Subclass for PvE: A Discussion with Above & Saltagreppo
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- Опубліковано 5 чер 2024
- A lot of you in chat were asking for an upload of this to my channel so here it is :)
I'll be creating a more comprehensive and decisive tier list later, these were just my rough thoughts in the moment
View the tier list here: tiermaker.com/list/destiny-2/...
DPS spreadsheet: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Twitch: / theaegisrelic
Twitter: / theaegisrelic
Speedrun server: / discord
Personal server: / discord
Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
05:36 Nightstalker
12:34 Dawnblade
27:43 Shadebinder
35:49 Sunbreaker
41:12 Arcstrider
46:56 Berserker
55:04 Voidwalker
1:00:22 Behemoth
1:05:17 Threadrunner
1:14:55 Stormcaller
1:22:32 Sentinel
1:35:05 Gunslinger
1:43:54 Broodweaver
1:55:04 Revenant
2:00:02 Striker
2:04:09 Outro - Ігри
Well being able to be destroyed has only made it more meta (especially in lfg). Because you need even more wellocks to replace the broken ones.
You honestly don't even need a well. I get a lot of content done where a well is "needed" without a well.
You can stun crota with 2 burning maul titans and use well only for final stand. But lfg is too stupid and want only wellocks
@@SD7skillslfgs often just use wells because they are really easy to use and make the experience better with more uncoordinated teams. Having an easy team wide heal/damage buff is really simple and understandable and is genuinely the best option with lfgs most of the time due to having any complexity in an lfg group being like herding cats lol
@@Cardinalsqr bungie should nerf wells into the ground. That shit is so annoying for endgame. They need to come up with something new to make things interesting again.
@@SD7skills ward of dawn already serves the purpose well does with an actual tradeoff since you have to leave the bubble to do damage and cant just sit there and dump rounds into a boss
2 hour video?! I wish I was in bed with aegis for 2 hours if he keeps coming out with these bangers
Oh my days
Aegis body pillow when?
@@TheAegisRelic merch ❌❌❌ body pillow ✅✅✅
@@ThatLazyyGuySTOP
Username checks out :)
Sunbracers is such a crazy build. You get near infinite grenades, restoration x2, and really high well uptime with ashes to assets. The only caveat is you need a melee kill which isn't even hard with ignitions from phoenix dive. Its crazy that you have some of the best ad clear in the game and the best super too.
Sunbracers are good for low tier pve. Hard to proc on GMs.
@@NicotineBlackyou would think so but like quite honestly even in gms, your snap one taps red bars still with the ignition especially. And then it still gets rolling just as good.
@@NicotineBlackeven then it’s just GMs. Everything else including contest raids it’s incredibly realistic to use sunbracers in.
Wait, Ignition kills with Phoenix Dive count as melee kills???
@@sunshotwithanornament2475 if its not GM just use Sunshot, you dont need a specific build for that.
Watching the section about Well atm. The trouble with nerfing Well is that a lot of proposed nerfs for it will cause players to run *more* Wells (things like duration nerf, or encounter design that forces you to move out). So my take is drop the restoration amount a bunch.
Crota breaking the wells on contest proved that
Yeah I think DR removal and lowering it to Resto x2
I think the well should.function like div or bubble shield, with the well player sacrificing their ability to use weapons in exchange for survivalbility
@@TheAegisRelicwould be funny if the well moved in random direction
@@thesonicfanboithat would just make nobody want to use it. That'd be awful
I like that despite having differing views from Salt, Aegis defends Salt's point of view to his chat. That's the mark of someone who's open minded and willing to assess different inputs. Bravo.
Redditor comment
What in the Christmas morning is this? A two hour aegis vid with salt and above!
It’s seems I’ve been a good little guardian this year
Just saying I would totally watch a podcast with these three discussing anything in the game
I would want Aegis and Above there but not Salt. Salt is annoying and a lot of his takes are just based around him and not really for the game.. and if it is for the game it is usually wrong. And Bungie just follows what he wants at times and it just isn't healthy for the game.
@@forsakenagony3574Trolling? If you aren't I suggest you take a critical look at what you just wrote because its deranged. You can disagree but that doesn't make him "wrong", in fact in the most high profile case he's been proven right. Also suggesting bungie follow him when deciding how to balance their game is simply delusional.
This thumbnail is so good. How does he consistently make such banger professional thumbnails??
How does he do it
I use void hunter for gm content where I use Orpheus rig and under the right circumstances can get up to around 4 supers cast within a minute due to the super and nade regeneration
I think void hunter is very very valuable for the majority of the Destiny player base, and a top pick for wanting to lay back or pay as little attention in higher end activities as possible. But they’re on point with it for their respective playstyles
@@seffers4788 oh yeah for sure the most i use void hunter in a raid for a to make very specific situations free ( i.e. knights at the end of bridge encounter for crota ) with most other content im using mostly solar and some arc then the normal stasis traversal. i do really like learning from other people how they play characters and sometimes i teach people a deferent perspective cause im newer
The community as a whole on the subreddit and twitter and what not are sorely missing out on all the incredible information you've put out there for us. The next time I see someone recommend slug shotguns as the "best shotty option" I'm definitely directing them to your channel
Super valuable content here, and I loved hearing everybody's perspectives. That said, boy was it confusing that you all had different sets of levels that meant different things (S vs S+ vs S++ and so on).
Yeah I think the tiers above S were a bit excessive given only 15 subclasses
@@TheAegisRelic someone posted Salta's tweet of his list in my clan's discord and I was like "bruh four of the seven tiers are S"
The thumbnail is so funny, I love the idea of aegis and saltagrepo taking lessons from above
The traveler shines upon us today. A 2 hour destiny video with Aegis and Salt. Super interesting to see the differing perspectives from Aegis and Salt with their different styles and ways they play the game.
Can't wait to see what Salt has to say here, speed run community is going to be rolling
salt just got the nobel prize in medicine for mrna and curing cancer. I assume that he will thank us.
great video, lot's of interesting insights and thoughts!
Amazing video. I've always played the taken king subclasses (Nightstalker, Sunbreaker, Stormcaller) and I'm glad that they're finally all in a good place. Obviously arclock will never beat well, but I find it a lot more fun.
Revisiting this video. There are many worthwhile suggestions Re: Well, however a no brainer change is that if the Warlock who cast the Well dies, the well should break. Just like Titan bubble.
Remember when bungie wanted to straight up delete ward of dawn because they were tired of balancing content around it? Guess bungie forgot when making well
Completely agree with everything you said, definitely on point.
One thing I think should be granted to threadrunner is that the super counts as crits. Meaning that it physically makes contact with weak points. This makes it strong for killing tormentors, especially if you don't have the best aim. In addition it can also easily dodge suppress attacks with its grapplr
Very nice discussion by y'all. I am very curious to see how Strand feels from Final Shape onwards. This whole year, we have Strand Surge in the activities that ask the most. Everything that Strand is doing now will be nerfed by 25%.
Suspend will still be the best cc in the game so it'll still be strong
@@joshuanolte9126 isn't stasis the best cc ? It's just strand has more overall damage and utility
@@gyrozeppeli8303 it would be if the team wasn't just insta shattering the frozen enemies
@@joshuanolte9126 teammate issue ngl, should be fine tho since most stasis things dont rely on kills
@@gyrozeppeli8303 so the solution is to just not damage the enemies?
Subclass talk officially starts at about 8:05
Striker being better than Nightstalker is certainly a take I wasn't expecting.
Definitely is overall at this time
Just a symptom of the fact that grenade spam is what makes or breaks a subclass.
Offense>>defense
@@bumponalog5001The whole S tier is just melee classes lol
This should be a weekly podcast. Not this topic but this group of people. Destiny needs a decent podcast.
Oh y’all were cooking with this 🔥
I could feel the PTweetSD when Salt wanted to get well out of the way early
Great job all, was a good listen
There is no way this guy said nerf well's duration, bro thatll make people crutch well MORE, literally binding warlocks to well or theyre throwing.
Still insane to me that the 4 years old Datto's 13 minute well of radiance video is still relevant to this day. Great tier list btw, I love it when top tier players get together and talk about shit like this
to the super regen on well, i think a reasonable nerf is that you have 50% less passive/all super energy gain when your well still exists. it’ll set it back a lil bit and make chaining super harder by itself while reenabling the usage of phoenix protocol
I'm glad I'm not the only one whos experienced how shite discord can be what salt experiencee happens pretty much everytime I use it multiples times during a session lasting only a couple hours, another thing ive noticed is sometimes when I join a call my voice just wont be transmitted until either I leave or join back or the other person leaves and joins back
What if Well slowly ticked down the super bar like chaos reach over its duration? That way you couldn't build more super until it is ended. We still generate super back very quickly, but it would help a little with a one size fits all situation.
- Pheonix protocol has left the chat
interesting idea on its own, but that would mean phoenix protocol would need a rework i think
Or allow Pheonix to retain the ability to regenerate the super, maybe adjust the amount given per kill, so then the exotic is actually useful again. It's so easy to regenerate super without Phoenix from within the well anyways.
i think make it so it doesnt go down, but you cant regen in a well, but phoenix protocol allows you to regen super at an expedited rate, also keeping well skating from any unintended changes
Yes, and let Phoenix protocol give you the ability to Regen while in well
Can't wait to watch this short video on my lunch break.
I feel its strange that the throwable shield melee doesnt apply weaken, sure second chance gives that now but at base, that extra option for weaken could add so much offensive utility
If I was balancing Well of Radiance, I would reduce it to a 20% buff, give Ward of Dawn blessing of light from D1 to give a bit more survivability, and make a new Hunter super with similar utility to bubble and well, like maybe a new strand super that creates a strand tether between the hunter and nearby guardians to grand woven mail or a stasis super that’s basically a big renewal grasps grenade that last longer
You can't nerf Well's damage buff lower than Radiant, otherwise it's moot because you just have Torches.
Strand super like tether who gives woven mail is is actually super cool idea
@@RikiazGamingIt just means you need to run torches if you want DR. No "you can't" about it.
@@GoneAngeltorches gives radiant, a DMG buff, not DR
@@colewilliams3621 My bad. No can read. Same thing applies with damage instead of DR.
An interesting rework of cataclysm nova would be to scale the damge of the mini bombs with how many connect on the same target. This changes nothing about multiple targets and instead adds increasing damage to larger targets
I know this isn't a "buff stasis" video, but since it was mentioned at the end, I do believe it warrants a tiny bit of discussion. I've had a few ideas in mind that could potentially help at the very least spark a few ideas in the community on what bungo could do to buff or rework it.
As it stands now, for me, the identity of stasis is CC and defense. It may not be the BEST at those things, but those are the 2 things that in my opinion make it fall into its own niche. So, there are a few ways we can buff stasis to make it stand out would be to either make it better at what it already does, or expand upon what it can do, or a combination of both. I don't believe the CC aspect of stasis is in need of too much of a buff, especially after the suspend nerf. So I'll be mostly focusing on the defensive capabilities and how we can improve or expand them.
I'm gonna share a few examples of additions I would add to stasis, but feel free to disagree or expand upon them.
One idea I've seen floating around for a while is a kind of "Ice Armor" to replace stasis shard overshield, because let's face it, it sucks. Even before the Rime nerf they were just a normal overshield. Now with things like void overshields and woven mail, stasis overshields are just not nearly as strong even when you combine them with other damage resist options. From a purely design aspect, they're extremely boring and don't tie into the power fantasy of stasis at all other than just making shards. So, to fix these issues, I'd replace it with what in my head I've called Frigid Scales, because it sounded cool and why not. Mechanically, they'd be a 50 health stacking overshield that stacks up to 5 times in PvE, and 2 times in PvP. Every time a stack runs out of health, it deals aoe stasis damage and also shatters. They could even rework a few of the behemoth aspects to make frigid scales tie in better and have titan be the main user of this ability, but still make it a core part of stasis. This would in my opinion separate stasis's defensive capabilities from the other options in the game because it's a form of offense from a defensive ability. It would also give behemoth titans another part of their kit to specialize in and build around. Make icefall mantle give an instant 5 stacks, make lancecap give a stack every time a diamond lance hits something, just anything to help build into that power fantasy.
On the topic of shards, I believe they should be an intrinsic part of the stasis kit and not tied to aspects. Tie them to fragments and rework the previous aspects tied to them. Every other subclass has a means of generating pickups from fragments or just the base kit. Stasis is the only one that you NEED to run the right aspect or you just don't get them.
You know how the damage of an ignition scales based on what started the scorch stacks? I believe a similar philosophy needs to be applied to shatter. In my very short testing, and you're free to correct me on this one, I figured the easiest way to confirm this is the newly buffed winter's guile, since it insta shatters on hit and buffs damage. One hit without the buff, the other hit with 5 stacks. Both shatter numbers were the same. This change would help out shatters by potentially buffing weaker options that rely on shatter damage, but letting bungie control things like chill clip from getting too insane.
I think just adding new supers to stasis would be a great change but I don't see it happening. BUT a one and done super for warlocks and titans would make their overall kit much more viable, and a roaming super for hunter would make it a bit more interesting for the player that enjoys roaming supers, even if it wouldn't be the most viable option for endgame. Mentioned it because they'd have to balance the new supers out somehow.
And lastly just general buffs to weaker/obsolete abilities to make them more applicable in more scenarios. An immediate one I thought of was silence and squall acting like tether but only making what it's hitting weaker to stasis damage (in addition to everything it already does of course). Obviously you don't wanna make tether worse. This change would give revenant hunters an, albeit niche, but still viable super to use in dps scenarios, while still maintaining that role of CC and support that revenant has seen over the years. Make behemoth's melee deal more damage or at least give it another charge to let it be competitive with frenzied blade.
All of these changes would most likely not happen and I do not expect them to happen. But, I do hope they at least spark some ideas in you guys and can get a conversation started on what can be done to help stasis out. Keep it civil in the replies, but I know someone's gonna rip me apart anyway. Hope you guys are having a good day.
Also, Aegis, if you managed to see this and make it through all this, keep up the good content! Been really enjoying your stuff and I hope you continue to put out what you consider good content!
I agree with most of what has been said here - I am definitely interested in creating a series where I talk about how I would improve the sandbox in the future :)
@@TheAegisReliccan't wait to see it then! Stasis would be a no-brainer first in that series of videos, but judging by this video I assume void would be up on the list as well?
I actually really liked that idea of an exotic to change banner shield and give it a nuke shield throw on the last hit. I'd personally just change Ursas to additionally do that, but they'd most likely make it a new exotic like with Pyrogale. Maybe a buff to vortex nova bomb to proc volatile similar to the changes they made to chaos reach proccing jolt? Wouldn't hurt the super by any means
Tldr nerd
A good way to balance well would be to make it an active channel like banner shield so you have to choose between unkillable or 6 people doing damage
It would need a substantial buff in order to make this actually worth while, what is more reasonable is just increase cool down, if you want those wells you give up super dps, or using other viable subclasses, in normal wades it won't change much but in the top end it might make well less of a immediate choice
@@Couchwreckeronly increasing its cd is just going to make people run MORE Wells, and people are happily going to drop some super dps because most peoples main source of damage is weapons and if you’re not alive to deal damage…well you won’t be dealing damage. contest mode crota showed how simply having more wells solved the problem. original dudes suggestion is perfectly fine. i’m not sure what’s the best change but increasing cd is going to make it worse.
@@CouchwreckerI also think the original comment is the way to go for balancing/nerfing it. In return for basically becoming invulnerable and unkillable, make the warlock unable to do dps. It's also pretty crazy that it doesn't go away if the warlock dies haha. Compare that with the next comparable defensive super in the Game, the titan bubble.
Bubble has you confined to one spot. Step out and you lose the shield too, unless you sacrifice an exotic armor slot for it. What drawbacks does warlock get for their invulnerable wells? Haha
@@OscarASevilla having a debuff person on top of well person means 4 people for dps, with no substantial buff to well a change like this fundamentally changes dps
@@Couchwreckerit's almost like that is the point.
they could move the DR from well to something titans could give out to help them play into the protector role of titans. Maybe rework weapons of light to give DR while the buff is active or something. That might just make bubble just as required as well so idk if that's a good thing at the end of the day.
I feel like an extremely reasonable starting point for tuning well would be to make it so you cant gain super energy while the well is still active outside of using phoenix protocol, itll give the exotic more viability and would keep you from being able just to spam well over and over again in any content you want just by throwing solar grenades everywhere
The Reppo Aegis colab im so happy
A way they could nerf well is drop the dr and resto to lower amounts but thrn add an exotic that buffs well to a little less than what it currently is, them you couldnt have that free ability to run just about any exotic
100% agree, drop DR and reduce Resto to x2 and it's balanced
A good way to balance well is to tie its potency and strength into intellect similar to how DR is tied to resilience. That way warlocks have to build around intellect in order for them to make the well more potent. Ex: T5 I = 1 restoration vs T10 = 3x restoration
Not even that much would make a difference, it needs a DR/resto flat nerf
I only used arc because of last seasons dmg reduction mods, since then they dust collect. I will say Arc warlock had 95% uptime on rift which felt really nice
Didn't know we were at a farm, with all these GOATs hanging around
Well could either reduce the DR, or reduce its regen rate. We have already seen a taste of a bootleg well with Banner of War and Into the Fray (if you wanna go full support), which already is absurdly strong. It just isn't as strong of sustain as an insta deployable, near unkillable 30s in boss dps.
I think for well they need to split it into different types, like tether.
Imagine a well that gives all healing and dr, but no damage buff, a well that gives damage buff but no healing. Then to get the same effects you’d need at least two wells.
It’d also give banner sheild room to breathe if a higher damage buff was available with protection, at the cost of a player doing damage.
They’ve just given some abilities to much function
The main issue, as other has pointed out, with nerfing Well in regards to buffs/cooldowns/boss movement etc is that it’ll encourage people to simply run multiple Wellocks.
Take Crota for example. Ideally you want at least two Wellocks; one for breaking his shield so the sword bearers don’t die and another for when he breaks the first well.
i initially figured that separating it into a sort of healing/empowering rift helps a lot, but it simply doesn’t work because well of radiance gives a 25% damage buff to everyone, which is the same increase of damage as the buff “radiant” is. so all some warlock has to do is put on the healing well and melee an enemy with ember of torches and now you just have a full well again. idk what the answer is but it has to shake things up entirely. no small changes will make an impact when the super is this busted
People really need to stop suggesting things that end up with the solution of run more wells. That completely goes against people wanting it nerfed because people are sick of it being a must run.
@@GoneAngelits bungie’s fault for designing entire raids around “sit here and hope you don’t die” like crota or warpriest for example he’s a chonky boi so you need to use swords for the free +30% on top of your other buffs. There’s too many encounters where your just trading blows with the boss. Also nobody wants or enjoys banner shield unless its some random with like a blue rocket or something.
@@thethumblessn00b19 This has nothing to do with my comment. I'm talking about people's suggestions on what Bungie should do to make well less ubiquitous. People keep making suggestions that would make people bring more wells, which is the exact opposite of the goal of the nerf. It had nothing to do with how Bungie is designing the game.
Well of Radiance definitely needs a few changes to bring it in line with other options. My suggestion would be:
- Keep Damage Buff at 25% (Radiant)
- Change Health Regen to Resto 2 levels (minor nerf I believe)
- Change DR so that it provides the Warlock’s Resistance DR to players inside the Well (e.g. if Warlock is on 100 Res, then everyone in the Well is at 100 Res and gains up to 30% DR).
I like this idea
I think just removing the dr completely would be fine so renewals, woven mail, and banner would have a use
Finally finished the video, and as a hunter main I can agree with the placements here. Arc Hunter is hands down one of the best subclasses for survivability. Most people use Liars Handshake but they haven't even scratched the surface of Arc Hunter when they could be using Assassin's Cowl as mentioned here. My main problem in the community is people trying to tell me to run Star Eaters instead of Celestial as "it does more damage" but even so that's not the point. Pre popped Celestial Goldie will always be got tear for precision boss damage. I love showing those lfg nerds who's boss. I wish Revenant hunter had more versatility, but hey, at least we can skate.
itd be cool if well took damage for you, so the more you eat damage with the DR, the more the well suffers. that way it's not random how the sword randomly gets mauled by crota or sumn. youll also get more longevity with less people in it and by placing it where 6 guardians arent facetanking a raid boss
yo great video as always :)
just wanted to ask: is there any chance you can share your excel sheet with your own ratings and stuff? would be really interesting for me to look at all the builds you mention there etc. since i just now started playing warlock and titan. sorry if it's already linked somewhere i couldnt find it in the other excel sheets i saved from you.
woops nevermind when i searched for spreadsheet instead of excel i could find a comment where you replied that it's in the channel description.. ..i'll leave the comment in case someone else searches for excel.
I still think suspend should have two different types, area suspend and individual suspend. One for groups and one for single enemies. That could bring strand hunter back into being useful for me, which it currently isn't
For strand hunter, I think they need a buff in a few respects:
1. Cyrtarachne has to give you an additional grenade charge only on grapple, so you free up an aspect instead of a fragment only.
2. Silkstrike needs a buff.
3. It needs a unique functionality and I think throwing tangles and the wanderer are great... I would make it so grapple melees done when attahced to a thrown tangle deal additional damage. Something like that either on an exotic or something else. Anything to give it more of am acrobat fantasy and build into tricky dodges, suspended dives, and grappling to thrown tangles
One thing you guys forgot about Ursa, kinda niche, but any GM with unstoppables bring an Ursa and let them soak up the damage from it and they can make enough orbs to regen everyone else's supers. I've found it really helpful in nightfalls like heist europa to protect from the wizards and shriekers and feed 2 wellocks their wells 24/7, some things can kill you out of well, the boss in the mars GM, the europa GM shrieker (the big orbs) etc.
We explicitly talked about Ursa
@@TheAegisRelic yea I saw, wanted to point out the orb generation. I saw you guys reference an old meta with them (I didn’t play back then)
Jeez, I got interesting feeling immediately when I saw Mr.Nerf Everthing in title. Comment section gonna be wild for a while
I don’t know if it’s feasible but changing well to keep your super bar full until the timer is up sounds like a fantastic change and it gives some actual value to Phoenix Protocol. May need further nerfs ultimately but that alone as an uptime change would be really healthy for the game imo
Uptime would only affect it in long term scenarios like GMs and partially day 1s (multiple phases), but it wouldn't address the actual underlying concern of its essentially required status and unkillable properties
Yeah I think a ton of the other changes I guys mentioned are good (buffing bubble, nerfing the DR/healing, making it unkillable but shorter so it’s more consistent but has even less uptime) I just think the super bar thing specifically is such a great idea. Really entertaining chat though
Bleakwatchers are underrated in day one and other heavy power delta activities. Although not strictly needed the crowd control allows players breathing room which is huge for less skilled teams. Omni Hunter smoke resist also fills a similar role.
Definitely overrated not underrated overall but in the endgame community I think some people hate on it a little too much
I like your tier list better than theirs, hearing so many subclasses in S or above really diminishes what S means. That you put Nightstalker in B so far away from their S makes more sense to me because yeah offensively it's whack and defensively it pushes aggro on your teammates. I'd push it down to C with Revenant, the only saving grace left is tether.
Speaking of aggro, Threadrunner is being slept on I think. Threaded Specter is the only thing in the game that pulls aggro, you and your team are completely avoiding damage and you can shoot unlike invis. Whirling Maelstrom also does good damage and you can have 2 or more up, free damage and can clear crowds. Threaded Spike reducing enemy outgoing damage with sever is huge and then you're stacking it with woven mail, it takes everything Renewal Grasps does for Revenant and makes it mobile and it's easier to keep up. It doesn't have a hard hitting neutral ability but you are constantly lighting up the field with abilities. I personally think with all that it's slightly above Arcstrider just because of Threaded Specter because again it's the only thing in the game to draw aggro but offensively Arcstrider is so good it's fair to say you'll just kill harder to keep a team alive and it has healing.
Gunslinger only having restoration x1 keeps it in B tier for me, A before it got nerfed but now it reminds me more of well of life and that on its own was too weak. I deleted all my foetracers in a purge before this season buffed it so I can't speak on how much it boosts the subclass sadly but again with x1 the inherent survivability is lacking to me.
Hearing insight on the other classes was nice though
I'd love some in proper in depth build videos to compliment the tier list!
Might consider it :)
2hr vid, another perfect vid to watch while laying in bed. also podcast discussing destiny 2 pve/meta/speedrun when?
Aegis pulling up his spreadsheet and having one build for strand hunter hurts my soul. Star eaters tractor with eremite is very solid dps (considering you’re tractor) and foe tracer is a really good gm/add clear build
Silkstrike is horrible for damage lol
the best thing to do with well is leave the duration and drop the damage resist, so that well and bubble together is a strat, if you let wells die, or reduce the duration, you're just asking for more well of radiance warlocks on a team which defeats the point.
Constant uploads = Awesome. Still of high quality tho
I love strand hunter but when suspend got nerfed it really gutted it bc the subclass doesn’t have many good offensive alternatives or survivability, the only reason I use it now over my abeyant leap titan is for lucky pants
it’s too late for this change, but if they made well similar to a sentinels shield/banner of war, would make it a little more restrictive (while nerfing its DR and restoration at a base level). forcing the wellock to hold a sword or something so they can’t deal damage. a cool thing they could do is maybe make it have a way to toggle between more damage less healing/less damage more healing while having the super active so that the wellock still has even the tiniest bit of interactivity. keeping the radius limited forces players to be even more careful using rockets inside of it and the warlock has to tank high content enemy attacks because he can’t just leave the well and come back when the aggro is off of him like warlocks can do rn. another suggestion i really liked, that would naturally happen with this change would be that the wellock cannot generate extra super energy while the hand held super is active. i know it’s a little crazy to think to have a healing buff that is also roaming but if they can’t deal damage with it it’s not a problem in pvp, AND since most damage in PVE as aegis had mentioned towards the start, it’s all in your heavy weapons now, and if 1 player out of 6, isn’t using their heavy weapon, then it’s a nerf to overall damage. there’s probably some considerations that i’ve not taken into account that makes this idea entirely garbage and i’m cool with that too, it’s really hard to find a way to change well to be more healthy for the sandbox.
I think all three nerfs would be too much combined, I think the just a Bubble buff, DR nerf, and Resto nerf would be enough, not forced inactivity :P
Well if Radiance has been the meta super since Forsaken, it needs a tone down but I think Daybreak needs something like cure when you get kills with the projectile idk. But definitely going to be running the new super over well
damn. 2 hours of subclass back and forth.
can't watch RN but later, shall enjoy.
People sleep on blinding grenades. A low base cool down stun capability and blind capability with jolt. Seriously shines with cold heart or legend arc trace. Remeber you get ionic trace on killing jolted AND blinded targets. The amount of gms I've done without a well and carried teammates is insane.
Are we talking flashbang grenades? They aren't bad, I've used them on Arcstrider before
@TheAegisRelic yes. Flashbangs aren't as strong as pulse but the utility is nice. Stuns unstoppable champs, blinds ads and you can jolt them netting you two ionic traces.
For well, I think that the trade off needs to be timed differently, like it has a burst of over shield and healing immediately, but the closer you get to the end of the healing cycle, the less healing it does, even if the damage boost is the same. It also allows for more of an outplay mindset where you can instant save someone without creating the invincibility zone like it does right now. It insentivises small mechanical things like warlocks using their class ability at the right time or running healing grenades to help compensate for the ending of the well. It also fits the genre of subclass and a fire burning bright and then flickering out... idk that feels fair to me.
Creative take!
"That discussion on well sure was insightful, therefore we should nerf stompees again" - Bungie probably.
The holy trinity has convened
I might get flamed for this, but I think a way to hit well is to make bubble stronger. My initial thought would be to give it a synergy with Citans so you can shoot through it.
Hate to be that guy but PvP exists and if bubble did that then everyone would play Void Titan
I was gonna comment this but that's the role Sentinel Shield is supposed to fill, and no one uses it still.
The reason is only one-sided protection, and one player is stuck in a channeled super
If Bubble can be shot though. PvP will catch fire.
Na. Cos the point is that Well is so strong even in pve content, making the content trivial. Solution isn't to give more OP stuff to us lol
@@alster06Bungie could find a way to make it work. They won't, but they could.
A 2 hour video?? Aegis you really shouldn't have, but thank you, we eating good tonight
The easiest way to nerf well of radiance is to take away it's damage resistance and neuter it's healing a lot, and THEN buff the damage boost on banner shield by a substantial amount to shift the power around
Agreed!
The easiest way yeah, but neutering well would cause a massive backlash and it’d be totally deserved. Nerfing strong things to incentivize worse things is a bad path that leads to a boring and unimaginative game
@@nathanflinchum1153 I don't think there would be much backlash especially not with this change. Well would serve the same purpose, but would become less effective relative to the sandbox as a whole.
Besides that, alot of people have wanted well nerfed much harder than this for a long time now. I'm personally quite excited to see how it plays out in the final shape.
Can you add the link to the sheet you are using in this video? I haven't played too much since the 3.0/dark subclasses and I like the breakdown stuff it looks like you have there. I don't quite have the understanding or mechanical ability yet in this game to get the most out of your main sheet, but I'd love to read through the more general notes of the one shown here!
Check Drive link in channel desc :)
If everyone wants well to be it's cureent power level, just make it a channel ability like a titan holding banner up.
It'd still be the best survival tool in the game, and if you have a 5 man, you'll be getting more overall damage than if you were shooting. Current well is oppressively op
For a dps strandlock would you recommend using necrotics w/ ascent/generation/evolution? I've been trying to come up with the remaining elements that'd allow it to hold it's own in ad clear and don't have many ideas
Yeah check seasonal DPS video for details
On Threadrunner: are you taking into account the current seasonal artifact? It is really carried by the artifact rn. Granted Elemental Munitions + Whirling Maelstrom got nerfed, but it's still one of the better ways to generate ammo that doesn't rely on a yellow bar being present.
I wasn't and I don't think they were either
I don’t think they will take into account seasonal mods tbh
hey a warlock main here and tbh im sick of well, im not a pro but i think reducing how fast you get well isent a good idea because it incentivises just having more well warlocks on your team and not actually solve the problem
I’m curious if you have your ranking spreadsheets posted anywhere. Would love to see them tbh.
Drive folder in my channel desc :P
I think a good change would be to nerf both well and bubble's damage buffs, but allow them to stack again, while keeping banner shield roughly the same. That way solar lock becomes less oppressive, void Titan becomes relevant again, and our overall dps doesn't change much.
As a behemoth stronghold enjoyer, the strand version of the build made my stasis one utterly obsolete
Its crazy to me how accustomed people have become to well, in crota if you use a bubble titan with saint 14 it almosts lasts the whole dmg phase but instead they would rather sacrifice 3 or 4 supers just on wells, absolute insanity
I think if well got nerfed (like taken out back and shot nerfed), I think void titan would be the go to support character
Honest opinion, I think one change to Dawnblade is to have Well of Radiance work more similarly to how the Sentinel Shield.
Super is now a Dawnblade Warlock eminating an area around them, which heals, provides DR, and weapon damage boosts.
From there, you can at least have Void Titan and Solar Warlock be on-par with each other, and thus be easier to balance. At least then, Solar Warlock won't be the immediate choice.
From there, apply the same philosophy to a Hunter, and bam. You have three S+ tiers for each class, each of them in equal competition.
They should combine Dawnblade and Well into 1 Super to turn the well aspect into a roaming super. Your team would have to stick by you to get the benefits of the well but you'd add the element where it wouldn't just be a 1 and done Super where you pop it and then start unloading rockets. Especially for a super that gives so many benefits. Losing out on DPS but still having a way to do damage feels better than just instant regen, radiance and DR. It should come at a cost. I always felt that Dome should be the only stationary Super
God Tier thumbnail ngl
The main nerf that I'd say I'd be okay with on Well is separating the damage buff and healing. Basically have 2 super options for Well, one that's an empowering rift-style with the buff to weapon damage, and the other that's the healing rift. It'll kill it, but still leave it as a useful option. Then again, people would just require 2 warlocks in their fireteam to stack the wells.....
i personaly think that they make it a high reward hight cost super you get healing you get dr, but maybe you lose 15% dmg if you standing in a well, so for gms, still great for raid day one as a panic ult geat as dmg option in a raid meh
Well loosing it’s DR would kill it. The biggest feature of Well is being able to survive consecutive burst damage. You still die to multiple adds pelting you in GMs if you misplay it.
What needs to happen: Well gets a healing cap. It scales with max fireteam size, but isn’t too outrageous. There is a minimum 5 second duration, and after that, the well just shatters when it runs out. It makes sense that way.
Alternatively, you could reduce damage resistance against bosses, but then Hive Homies like Kelgorath would one-punch you and the whole point of well should be surviving burst damage.
i need some more info on the prepop Nighthaw Goldie thing, so what's the idea here ? you just prepop nighthawk + goldie before dmg starts to avoid losing time you'd spend dpsing with weapons ? or is it to swap to like foetracer etc easier ?
You just have it out while you're waiting for damage to start that's it lol
can you do a subclass ranking for the d2 minecraft versions
It feels like bungie is trying to build encounters to counter well, but like reckoning it just makes well become more used.
Disagree with this as well. Reckoning was year 2 with the introduction of Gambit Prime. For that activity, yes, Well was a must along with Tether(poor titans were useless). However, outside of certain activities or encounters(which is where the game should be as our kits are tools to mastering different encounters ) people had more freedom in year 2-4/5 than they do now after the 3.0 changes and nerfs to subclasses and exotics.
We’re in year 6 headed to year 7 in Destiny 2 and never has a subclass been so polarizing until now and this very super has been in the game for 5-6 years at this point.
Rig Hunters weren’t this hated and we could give constant uptime on supers feeding orbs to the team while providing crowd control and we always had our super up. It was easily more busted than well.😂
@@Five20three Idk why you disagree with me from what you said. I didn't talk about class balance or freedom just the fact that bungie has clearly designed some recent raid encounters around well. Before Root no other raid straight up required well to survive. Reckoning was the only other example that wasn't a raid so that's why I used it. Nothing else in the game has needed well besides early gms, but very few people did them compared to now so it would be a bad example. People in pve don't hate well they just hate being forced too use it. Hunters and titans have complained about the exact same thing in the past whether it be rig tether or cuirass.
Tier list: well of radiance. Done.
You got one thing wrong about Behemoth: it works really well for bosses that are wider than they are tall, so bosses like Riven's hand, cabal tanks and fallen walkers. But yes, for the remaining 95% of the game, it's not great.
Also, Lancecap spam is fun when the lances aren't being stolen by teammates.
In which world is Nightstalker not S+ Tier, you are basically unkillable with great utility and easy revives on Teammates. This Subclass alone carried Grandmaster Heist mars
its been power crept a bit, its main super being able to debuff has been outclassed by a tractor swapping. its neutral game is good but resto in solar hunter outclasses devour imo
Just up the cooldown on well...make it a 9min cooldown super. A super should feel powerful. Dont touch the hp regen since getting restoration 3 is pretty rare. Duration is fine or if you really need to nerf duration do it slowly and not knee jerk, like 5 seconds at first and see where it goes from there. You could remove dmg resist but give it slow overshield or make it so dmg resist granted is based upon the casters resilience.
I think strand hunter is the best “general” subclass you can run. Not the best at any category but good in all aspects imo. My load out is cyrtarachne, grapples, marksman dodge, windows silk, maelstrom, thread of fury, propagation, generation, and ascent with quicksilver and cold comfort with envious assassin. Male liberal use of your grapples for woven mail, which can be used passively and offensively. Maelstrom allows for some ad clear, fury gives melee energy which feeds into propagation and generation as well as your melee severing anything that lives (they deal less damage). You can unload almost an entire reserves of cold comfort by dropping a full 3 mag from envious, grapple to reload with ascent, dodge because agent cooldown, grapple to your grapple point for ascent reload.
Give Cowl a try over Cyrtarachne's; I find that because Strand has such high uptime on Woven Mail, giving it any healing at all tends to make it considerably more powerful (see Banner of War and/or Stronghold), plus it also lets you be bootleg Nightstalker in a pinch.
I would argue the best general subclass is voidlock, as you get devour for survivability, debuffs for increasing damage, and volatile for increased ad clear. Running it with contracerse makes you have near infinite charged vortex nades, and gives dr while charging your grenades, as well as being able to generate tons of orbs with firepower. It's also nice as you can run all 3 aspects if you run child and chaos accelerant, paired with the fragment that grants devour on orb pickup, giving ability regen from child suck as well as a debuff, while also having amazing ad clear from grenade spam.
I'm sorry to burst bubbles but it's definitely well lock
Well is insanely strong because you don't have to build into it. Not to mention every competent player is also running tier 10 resil (~40% DR) and resist mods (35% DR on 3 stack). You don't need good Intellect because you can rally from flag, plus boss mechanics leading up to dps are long enough to replenish the super bar (including the orbs intrinsically spawned from super). You already mentioned the Radiant/DR/Restoration effects the super gives as well. That's WITHOUT an exotic to improve the subclass.
I think to make well less necessary they would have to change their boss fight design so that its not optimal or necessary to sit in in the well and shoot together or just to not die from the all the trash mobs or incoming damage.
The health pools they give the bosses pretty much make 100% dps uptime a necessity (in contest anyway). If they lowered the total health and made standing still either impossible or at least not optimal you might see well drop off.
I want to agree with you but I have seen people try to bring well into Lightblade GM’s…that’s not really viable as that boss moves…a lot, but it’s the best subclass a Warlock has.
I think it doesnt even matter what they do with well. If they nerf it someone is probably still forced to play it and then its even more frustrating for that player and as long as you have that damage phases where you die without some form of healing you need it.