The pitfalls of global group lyricism
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- Опубліковано 9 лип 2024
- English songs about empowerment have a hard time avoiding being considered cringey universally, which I think spells out an even bigger problem for emerging global groups out of the kpop industry
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Honestly I am generally getting tired of these "look at us, we are so great" "we are on top" "nobody can stop us" songs. Especially early on or as debute songs saying you are the best, watch out, back of haters comes of so juvenile to me. These flexing songs in general are getting boring especially when you dont have the experience or sucess to back it up.
Like how can you sing about stuff like being on top, making it and besting haters when you are fresh in the industry for 5 seconds
LMAO on point with the last bit
A lot of Vcha's songs has a lot of meaning, except the first 2 b-sides in their predebute track, and Vcha's main target audience are kids, unlike Katseye who targets teens and adults but the lyrics comes off as kids pretending they are cool
I think so far it's obvious what the weaknesses are within these two groups: VCHA'S actual sound doesn't appeal to the west because kids these days will pick Sabrina Carpenter over a Disney Channel type sound and KATSEYE'S lyricism so far is weak. (So far it's been one weak song, maybe we just gotta wait a bit more for something better.) I hope these two groups have a turn around because obviously at the end of the day, they all have talent. It's just their company's fault.
Song meaning ideas:
•"crushes are a waste of time"
•"stepping out of a comfort zone"
•"having bad days and good days will happen in life, and that's ok"
•"healthy friendships are cool"
•"I don't need to have a lover to be cool, I'm cool being single"
•"beautiful things take time"
•"I'm different, and that's cool"
•"addiction isn't healthy"
•"making mistakes in life is fine"
ALL these song meaning ideas would most likely relate to a western audience and be more intriguing.
THANK YOU
I think another point in the discussion is how these "back off" haters type of tracks are given as... debut tracks. A group is barely out in the world, and they're already calling for their hypothetical haters to not mess with them; it adds A LOT to the cringe, english lyrics or not.
This. Glad someone else thinks its weird. Like wow out the gate swinging 😭
This is how I feel about the new girl group Bad Villains like we just got here who are yall "spinning the block" on?
Ummm… they were literally getting hate as soon as they were announced by Kpoppies lmao. I feel like it’s an automatic when you debut in HYBE.
@@josereyes-fd1qpLiterally every debut group gets hate. It's not just Hybe debutants.
@@Luna-rl5wu it doesn't make sense to me either 😂 like, I understand that you'd wanna express confidence and charisma through first impressions but flexing on haters who haven't really even started existing yet??? These girlies just got started. Why couldn't they just sing about "learning to grow confidence" rather than "being confident and flexing on imaginary haters"??? Makes no sense.
“I dont need no one two three or bourgeoisie” what😦
I heard yanny 😭
What is bud yapping abt😭
like you're under geffen youre literally the bourgeoisie
Teach me japanese first 😂😂😂
the way she sings bourgeoisie is so satisfying tho✨
I feel like the lyricism is holding them back. It makes them feel immature. I hope they get some really good writers in the future. Wishing them the best. And considering they can all speak English I trust the girls to deliver some more complex lyrics and deeper meanings. Just the power of one incredibly done metaphor in a fun song can never be underestimated.
Exactly!!
the immature comment is unnecessary but ok
The sad thing is that Ryan Tedder, the main writer for Debut is a great writer, he worked on Greedy and Ex’s by Tate McRae and Teeth and Easier by 5SOS. For some reason Kpop always picks his worst songs though…
@@ggcntrlbut it DOES sound immature, this song sounds like it was written to motivate kids into doing their best in school, when their target demographic is more for young adults.
I agree
I feel like this is why the English version of Cupid got so viral. Besides how addicting the voices and melodies are, they actually put effort into the English version instead of making it a direct carbon copy of the literal translation of the Korean version. Like the English lyrics are clever and also sound natural with the melody even tho it’s different lyrics than the Korean. They even took out the Kpop rap that is typical in Kpop songs but not western pop songs.
i think the eng version of cupid is the original lyrics. i mean i won't be surprised, cause many kpop songs were written in english. like look at lyre and their works, or the demos we see getting shared online (la vie en rose, love dive, etc.) after all, kpop was influenced by western music
lyricism is huge in western pop rn, from taylor to lana to chappell to olivia to billie- all of those people have other factors going for them, in production or vocals but they do write all their lyrics. it's why i think kpop will have a hard time expanding to the west through english releases- i love kpop but it's not really the "authentic/self-produced" image that the average western popstar has right now. it's strength has always been in production, vocals, and visuals- not writing, which is what western pop is focusing on. it might make them stand out, but it also might sink them
edit: apparently i need to clarify that not every western artist is hugely involved in their writing, not every kpop idol is not. the point i'm making is how they emphasize their writing by presenting an "authentic" image(think taylor swift and her diaristic songwriting), which kpop doesn't do as much. that doesn't mean a facade of authenticity makes a song better, just that its what western audiences gravitate to
100%! as most listeners in the west are on an individualism and relatability kick; k-pop’s maximalism, visual focus and lack of authenticity does not translate well over to a general western audience that is already privy to not taking idols seriously to begin with
@@arimes31 i feel like kpop would've had a better chance in the west if the musical landscape was how it was 10-15 years ago
Well said
Exactly
I think you gotta double down on what Kpop specializes in. You build relatability through vlogs, lives, and TikTok, but the music needs to feel huge.
lisa can you teach me japanese i said hai hai… like… welcome back shakespeare!
😭
😂
The lyrics for Lisa's songs are so bad it should be illegal
@@everythingsfinett3903lisa is the type of artist to make fun music to vibe to, if people want to listen to something deep then go for someone like rose
@@balladofahomeschooledboy0514not an excuse for them being shut ALL the time
Here's the solution: hire writers that work well with women and girl group
Victoria Monet
Kamille
Anija
MNEK
Jade Thirlwall
Max Martin
Tommy Brown
Finneas
The Dream & HIT BOY
hire em and watch the difference
Cool for the most part but NOT The Dream he's allegedly moving like Diddy in the industry.
I agree with list but no, not the dream! He can’t be allowed near any young girls ever! I know he has written hits but girls & women need to be safe more than they need hits.
HEAVY ON MISS MONET !!!
They NEED Lolo Zouai.
I'd add charli xcx too, she's written great songs for TXT and Twice before
It’s so weird to come out with a song about flexing on haters as a new group. It feels like a) you’re starting your career by engaging with meaningless hate comments and b) you’re making it more difficult for the general public to relate to you. I can relate to a song about loving my girlfriends but I can’t relate to a song about proving the haters wrong because I’m a normal person and I don’t have haters. If this first era is supposed to be about introducing the girls to the public and creating a parasocial bond (for better or for worse) this song topic just doesn’t do it. Also in the west I feel like we’re so over music just referencing money nonstop. It’s not relatable for the vast majority of listeners and quite frankly it’s boring. I feel like you make a great point about K-pop being behind in that. They still think Americans like to listen to music about how much money the artist makes and we really couldn’t care less because most of us are struggling to make ends meet as it is.
Fool
You did a great job writing how I exactly about the kpop music industry
at this point the companies behind these groups have to be blissfully ignorant. every thing you highlighted in this video has been a complaint of not only kpop fans, but music fans in general. there has been a shift where people desire more than surface level lyricism and production, so it shouldn’t be a surprise that songs that are the opposite aren’t being received well. there are off instances, but even in those cases there is some redeeming quality that makes it understandable why it did well. you can’t market to an industry that is currently not favorable towards girl groups with something people don’t want and expect it to be successful… it feels like setting the girls up for failure when simple market research and creativity could prevent that
That's what I said in the comments on another video that is looks like hybe is setting them up for failure and I got attacked by kpop fans for saying it.
@@juanquintero4773 It's important to remember HYBE isn't micromanaging them all the way from SK, a lot of this dissatisfaction with the music might be attributed to Geffen Records. Hybe entrusted them with handling Katseye, and while I'm not saying Hybe is completely hands off, I can't see them willfully sabotaging such a huge investment they made when they are super hungry to break further into the Western market.
They need to change the lyric song writers, it's like old people trying to resonate with gen z kids by using random cringe slang and lyrics. It's SO BAD. 😭 Also it's really not that hard, I'm saying this as someone who enjoys music AND poetry. First, find a good topic to sing about. Heck even ask a group member for some song inspiration based off a cool story, challenge in life or good days. Then, WRITE. All you gotta do is write a whole paragraph of junk, shorten it into sentences that work well in verses and find what melody works best.
@@juanquintero4773 their mv looks cheap as well, the studio set is just plain white. 😅
@@sekar9901what are you talking about? They went to Columbia for the MV and filmed there. Plus the hanging scene was filmed out doors, they had to unfortunately overlay their surroundings cause they couldn’t make it blend well with the irl background
When I first saw the MV of Debut, I was anticipating a Maybelline logo to appear somewhere in the chorus. It looks and sounds exactly like it was approved by a board of boomer directors to market an old brand to the new generation. It’s the kind of song/video that would play on repeat in a makeup store.
oh my gosh that's why it felt so familiar thank you I couldn't put my finger on it
Kpop companies have no idea what the west is looking for point blank period. All these “global” groups fall flat bc who exactly is the audience when the talent is there but lyrics, styling, and mvs are all cheap and terrible.
agreed, i feel like atp kiss of life is one of the only groups that has potential to expand to the west
@@user-z810I just got into kiss of life and they’re so good. They deserve more attention.
@@user-z810 and the thing is, kiof's songs aren't necessarily super personal either. others still write their lyrics and that's ok because it's well written, so not being self-made is not the problem like how some others are trying to make it out to be. the problem is simply that vcha and katseye's lyrics are just pure corporate slop. it's absolutely soulless in the way that you can tell that the writers didn't care either.
Let's stop forgetting about xg people
@@erikaisabella2651xg does not have potential to be famous globally lmao
i think western music fan's are often drawn to the authenticity of the artists they listen to. to me, that's typically why we see more individual artists rise to fame (people like sabrina carpenter, chappell roan, olivia rodrigo, etc.) rather than groups. many western artists are hated for not writing their own lyrics, it's entirely something that's expected of an artist who wants to become successful here. because these new global groups factor that out and take the more kpop-centric approach to music creation (their companies being in charge of the concept & lyrics), their songs are entirely vague, and the few lyrics that do attempt to describe the songs meaning are tarnished by the cringy lyrics that would be excusable in a kpop song, but not in a song primarily sung by english speakers. i really hope that both vcha and katseye (or rather jyp & hybe) are able to work with writers located in the united states, especially considering that both groups are located here.
Yess
the hate for not being songwriters is mostly an online thing, if we're being honest. artists who either don't write or are constantly accused of not writing by randoms don't run into issues with building a fanbase or getting hits.
I totally agree. I do also want to add that I feel like a great example of “authenticity” that a lot of music listeners nowadays enjoy is NewJeans’s ‘Ditto.’ Now, it’s not really the lyrics but more so the music video. The lesser cut videos, realistic environment (rather than the elaborate generic k-pop MV stages), and the raw footage feel really elevate it for viewers, I think.
@@lainee_kwongg this is so true!!!
@@xrrgr good point! however i really do believe that an artist's personality, whether that's shown through lyrics or not, is a big factor of what leads to their success. katseye's upcoming netflix show might be a good way for them to work through that issue. i do truly wish global groups the best future possible!
I was expecting a more experimental sound for Katseye, like imagine if they embrace international friendship, women around the world united, showing their culture’s diversity, talking about how differences don’t matter cause we are one or something that actually represents a global girl group and not just pretty girls with sassy english lyrics
I don't understand how the art film for Dream Academy, introducing all the girls and their talents is A MILLION times better than the actual debut song for KATSEYE lol. HYBE x Geffen did then dirty by giving a first song which doesn't highlight the vocal strengths and diversity these girls have AT ALL.
We can Wait it's just 2:15 min song you can't blame it when their actual aim is on Ep album @@mahdireza5695
I'm surprised they didn't go that route too. And there was an example of a global co-ed group that did it and cultivated some success that could've served as inspiration. Now United had songs like "One Love", "Wave Your Flag", "One World", "All Around the World" with lyrics emphasized the global nature of the group. That was also reinforced with other choices like putting each group member's flag on stage costumes or sometimes having members sing verses in their native language, ex. "Pas de Choix (Manal Mix)".
When I heard the song I literally printed out the lyrics so I could annotate them like I was back in high school English just to see if i just wasn't understanding them. But they're really incoherent when you go line by line. Actually pay attention to the lyrics? What is this song about? What does "No this ain't a debut" mean. Genuinely.
Is it just a statement? "This isn't a debut." Okay? Then why is so much emphasis put on it as a powerful line? Is it meant to imply we're so cool this isn't even a debut? But what does that mean? The best interpretation I could come up with is "we're so cool and you ain't seen nothing yet" but the rest of the song doesn't really match that. The verses seem to imply "we're already so cool" so these messages aren't compatible.
And the final line being "Love me once I know you'll love me twice, love me once it's time to roll the dice?" I understand the first half, but what are they trying to say in terms of rolling the dice? Rolling the dice on what? Their success??? But wasn't this whole song saying "we're so cool and we're going to be successful"
The lyrics just make no sense. I was really disappointed with this song. I'm hoping their august mini album is better crafted because these girls deserve so much better.
i completely agree with you, maybe what they mean by this aint a debut is that this isnt the first time they are shown to the world as seen by being on dream academy but it also just doesnt need to be a line in the song
This is so true, when I first listened to the chorus in the sneak peeks they posted to TikTok it was very catchy, especially the “loved me once I know you’ll love me twice” part. But when I heard the full song and paid attention to the lyrics, it just came off as very shallow and even generic, the concept itself came off as very soulless, as if their only characteristic is to be sassy. Many of the lines feel like they’re just together to rhyme without actually adding any meaning.
As for VCHA, I loved their song “Only One” but I think the lyrics also have this issue of being incoherent at times. It’s generally a love song, but then you have Savanna and Lexi with the “when I walk in through that door, I make a scene I sparkle like it’s too bright to ignore” which feels off because that’s more following their “girls of the year” theme than a love song theme, and the line “treasure, let’s find out what’s buried underneath” I don’t even know how that relates. I think I’ll stop now cause maybe I’m reaching haha but idk
Most western artists I listen to don’t always write about their experiences, but about a concept they come up with, but the way they develop the concept in the lyrics shows more complexity.
Of course this isn’t the girls’ fault, they are working with what the companies give them. All these girls are talented and work hard, hence why they earned a spot in the group, but their companies really need to study the market better.
I’m definitely not defending the lyricism but I took the “this ain’t a debut” line as a reference to the voting show they were on. Like no you already know us, you voted for us before, you love us, and now we are here to give you more.
Everything was looking like winx club Bratz y2k, then we received a generic camp rock lookin' song and concept.... Hear me out, 90s/retro futurism combined with cats or mystical elements as a concept would EAT. Something along the lines of TLC/Blaque's futuristic concepts. They need to actually show us that they're not that "cookie cutter perfect ordinary" yet that's what we got lol. You know it's bad when people are actually complaining on the official music video and there was WAAAY more hype on the teasers. HYBE x Geffen, do better.
The way that the end of your comment could be worked into a catchier lyric than many lines in the actual song 😅@@Abigail-tf2eo
Vcha works. As long as jyp focuses on truly being global and not just focusing on America they can find great success. Given the response from twice fans during ready to be, it seems they do have an audience. The only problem i see is jyp not knowing how to premote them and just keeping them in a vault between appearances.
They didn't post anything in one month. It looks like JYP have already putting them in the dungeon
DUNGEON??👽@@sekar9901
@@sekar9901I meant to use the 😭
@@sekar9901I think they're preparing for a comeback. It's on JYPE's idols comeback schedules.
@@orion5445 if they don't have comeback and they're not performing in lollapalooza next month, I'm afraid JYP is giving up on them.
I feel like lyricism is dying in kpop in general. I'm bored of love songs (magnetic) or a self-impowerment/flexing (rockstar) type song. they can both be good if the meanings were deep and felt like genuine emotions that the artists wanted to share, but it really doesnt.
Lisa from BP embodies this lol. Hopefully she will have more diverse things in the future.
It’s technically a love song, but ARTMS’s Virtual Angel has such a cool concept and lyrics to go with it: many interpret it to subtly criticizing the para social “love” of people and their idols (who are the virtual angels). I also ascend every time i listen to it
@@jenerak.yuzernaim2302 loona was (still is) that group and the 5 girls that went to artms are so amazing 😭😭 virtual angel is SO good in all aspects
@jenerak.yuzernaim2302 LOONA MENTION 🤩🫶✨
@@jenerak.yuzernaim2302 the post-loona groups and triples are honestly killing it in the lyricism department. they can do love songs or empowerment songs but it's rarely ever cringey. wish people tuned into them more!
"I don't need no 1, 2, 3
No bourgeoisie
I'll step in"
what. does. that. mean.
Fr
My brain has been loading ever since I've first witnessed that lyric lol
Okay im not certain either, but i think the "1, 2, 3" part is supposed to be ppl bossing them around like they have a list to follow? And bourgeousie is either middle or upper class, so they're saying they don't need their money 😭
@@toastedbananas4760 that explanation just makes it even more confusing
kateye's debut lyrics is perfect in line with how this songwriter writes as I have watched one of his lessons: create a few catchy phrases then try to connect meaning betweeen them. Opposite as some create : theme, advanced wordplay / rhymes that contribute to the theme, hook / chorus, then story telling verse.
Right? I agree, it definitely comes off like a Ryan Tedder song. His love on top days have long since past
Even Taylor swift, considered one of the best songwriter of current pop had criticism in her latest album. That should tell how much the west values lyricism
taylor swift and best should never be in the same sentence ever
This!!! Omggg
I love a lot of her music but the lyrics on her new album are definitely not her best.😭
@@mohhhhhhhhgjghvcy even swifties were making fun of it or expressing disappointment online, you know it's not her best work. I'm all about vocals and conceptual vision/artistry when it comes to having a favourite artist, but I'd say Taylor's strengths so far has been more in the songwriting department. I've enjoyed some of Taylor's songwriting (I'm not exactly a swiftie) I do feel it could've been more interesting or different this time round. It just felt... Generic and predictable of Taylor.
@@mahdireza5695Most criticism comes from people who didn't even heard the album unfortunately, and not every fan will like everything an artist puts out
Not only is the lyricsm a big issue but the lack of authenticity is in my mind. I feel like more western listeners like western artists for their authenticity or their style which is something they lack. I don't think Hybe knows how to not be so controlling when it comes to their artist as they are at their roots a kpop company
overall, the song lacks artistry, creativeness which makes the song seem like when a kpop group comes out w an english single to make a lazy attempt at the west or when the company just goes “damn, here you go” to add to discography. which is a whole other problem in k-pop that nobody talks abt, honestly wishing the best for them ive been there since the members were announced but if hybe wants to make waves here they need to know what people actually are listening to instead of making them release stock music
Spot on video. Will add that Korean lyrics also hold back kpop from being more popular globally. Korean is a flowery and poetic language and is sometimes cringey when translated. As for English lyrics, it sometimes feels like cosplaying what it means to be a Westerner. The trend of using English expletives is a prime example. Simply including “f*ck” in your song doesn’t make you cool or edgy or hip - How many title tracks include Korean expletives like 시발? Bueller …. Bueller? And I’m frankly tired of lyrics bragging about one’s wealth or social status or being on top or selling out tours or topping charts or hitting back at haters or being girl bosses - by now, it’s trite and pedestrian
It just gives kidz bop and I’m so over it.
been with Nizi Project and NiziU debut, also with A2K and Vcha, the reception of Glocalized groups always depends on the general public, NiziU is now a big group in Japan, while Vcha was with Twice as an open act, and is going to lollapalooza hoping for a high trajectory on their popularity, especially teen crush/ disneyisque are cringy on the get go, as a prejudice, hoping for the best. while we argue for lyrics with english speakers, we have XG that has Japanese members but is crushing the english lyrics, there is no set in stone criteria, star power sky rockets you on all fronts, so lyrics and cohesion is a pressure for native speakers, I'm just excited for more of this. breakdowns
honestly, i was really surprised when vcha debuted and people seemed to insist that they were targeted at the general US market--i.e. the same people who listen to artists such a sabrina carpenter, fifth harmony, or even megan thee stallion. my impression was always that vcha and katseye were targeted at international, english speaking kpop fans, who wanted to see idols who looked like them, and spoke the same language, trained under the kpop system. it seems that i was wrong, but honestly i think that's where these companies need to pivot for success, because like you said, there's not much of an *interest* for idol groups in the mainstream US audience right now. the majority of these girls' fans are kpop fans, and usually company stans at that. if they focused on marketing to and appealing to intl kpop fans, while also adjusting their lyricism and concept, i think they'd be much better off
debut's lyricism confused me as well. at some point of listening to the song, i pulled up the lyrics to see if i was hearing it right ... lyric analysis is one of my hobbies and i really love thinking deeply about it but i was super disappointed by debut. i could excuse the vague girl empowerment concept if the lyrics were good, creative, and specific, but they aren't, and so it falls flat in both categories to me. i hope katseye's actual debut is better and more focused!
regarding vcha, i was a little confused on their debut's concept, as i was hoping it'd be something more concrete than "we're idols now!" but after it i saw the potential, especially if it turned into something like what you were hoping to see with lucky girl syndrome- a manifestation concept, something about personal will bringing your dreams into reality. they did end up pivoting with only one though, which i don't think was a bad idea considering xo call me was so well received as a b-side of their debut... it's been a while since vcha has done anything so i hope they can really lock in with their next release
Ur first observation is so real!
I thought JYPE was gonna promote VCHA to the US too. But as soon as I heard the pre-releases, I realised it was just the regular JYP group, just with American members and English lyrics. Then they went on to perform on K-music shows. Plus the show was about bringing American members into the K-pop industry, hence A2K.
I WISH there was a market for Vcha in the US. I'd love for tweens and young teens to have an uplifting, appropriate group to enjoy. There's definitely a shortage of that right now. I'm not sure why that is. What happened to the Disney/Nickelodeon teeny popper pipeline?
Kaachi walked so these girls could RUN!
I feel like the biggest problem with these groups is how unclear the audience is. KATSEYE and VCHA are essentially just kpop formula, but in english. But when you look at the top kpop groups... it's not like they don't speak English. In a way, groups like newjeans, blackpink and kiss of life already do the thing that is supposed to make global groups unique.
So if their competition essentially is kpop, they need to be able to stand on their own in the tough kpop competition. And in terms of concept... right now VCHA seems like a watered down TWICE, while KATSEYE is watered down LESSERAFIM. And I mean, that *could* work. If KATSEYE keep releasing radio friendly girl crush songs, they could go a similiar path as blackpink (if they're really lucky). VCHA would need a CUPID tho.
The other route would be to distingguish themselves from kpop. Essentially, everything you talked about in your video. I also think the fact that they don't write themselves makes it harder, considering the negative connotation groups in the west have of being "produced".
I think XG went through all these stages. With Mascara and Tippy Toes, it was cool songs, but could've been any other girl crush kpop group. Then, with shooting star, they really made their own identity and brought something unique to the kpop formula. And now with woke up, they released something kpop can't compete with
I think we try to hard to explain things that we don't like referencing palpable things, when in reality is more about what is going on in our uncouncious mind. Like, XG share a lot of things that is being criticized in the comments (lines that are not part of their vocabulary ("We don't want no opps"), not writing their own songs...) but still being viewed as an "authentic" group.
So what makes them have their quote unquote "own identity"? Because all we are seeing in the MVs/songs are very much planned by their company. As I said in another comment, things are much more complex than we think.
The problem might be inside us.
Btw the girls themselves clarified it IS their debut single.
then why does the lyrics say it isn’t a debut 😭
@@noahfan2719very confusing situation... 😔
@@ellenevolyn_ maybe it's a promotion strategy of some sort??? Confusing the public then coming out with an actual banger? Lol idk 💀
@@noahfan2719irony
@@ellenevolyn_have you ever heard of irony
There was only one English version I can listen to without completely cringing. And that was Cry For Me by Twice. Which sucked because the song was stuck on Alcohol Free as a CD exclusive for a couple years until the Remixes released.
Katseye in comparison to VCHA also have another problem when it comes to their lyrics. Vcha seems very youth focused in their demographics. While this doesn’t mean they can’t drop the next Shakespeare in upcoming releases, it’s definitely easier for them to skew the line of cringier lyrics because “target audience” or smth.
Katseye on the other hand, have a lot older of a sound / Concept. Which on some fronts makes the cringy lyrics more of a concern. It’s the mentality of “if you’re a grown up, act like it.”
I wish the best to Vcha and Katseye (I pray Katseye/Hybe America frees themselves of Scooter Braun 🙏), maybe in the future they will get to write some Shakespeare for us.
-I pray they secretly have a Dahyun or Chaeyoung among them.-
What did that guy scooter Braun do???
@@CaptainElijahAviation public opinion skews negative on him, especially for his viewpoints in today’s age concerning Palestine and Israel.
TLDR: Zionism
@@CaptainElijahAviation stolen music from artists, is a zionist, has intimidated fans on their Twitter dms for speaking out against him, and there are some *unproven* SA claims against him. He's just horrible regardless I have no idea why hybe ever thought it was good to associate with him (and their artists by extension) and then double down on their decision when fans pointed out their discomfort.
Another struggle for Katseye is the age gap with the members. The more mature songs just wouldn't work for the baby.
Yeah... I have the same opinion but in my case Hwaa by (G)-Idle.... I don't cringe because the concept itself is Poetic...
vcha's actual debut and comeback with only one was soo cute i tear up because it really resonates with me bc im getting married soon. LOL
i was quite impressed and im pretty harsh on english releases LOL
VCHA'S overall sound is not for me personally (I do like some OLDER Disney Channel songs, but that's for nostalgia purposes only) but Only One is actually really good? Catchy, cute, girly, sounds like something that would be aired on a Disney Channel sitcom episode and actually gives a good message. I think the choreo was more kpop though. I really liked the whole song!
I think Rockstar is another example of how English lyrics get way more scrutiny from Kpop stans. There's definitely a Blackpink effect there but I was so surprised at how worked up people were over the lyrics of a hyperpop-esque song.
And on the topic of hyperpop, I think Charli xcx is a counterpoint to the recent emphasis on lyricism. I think there are ways to build a popstar persona without being a singer-songwriter. But the visual and sonic storytelling has to be there.
I understand 100% what you mean, but imo, Charli does stand out in the lyricism area but because of the unexpected contrasts she creates. She can throw deep emotional topics between her fun clubby lyrics and sounds. She absolutely loves and makes music that she wants to party to, while being super personal about it. She feels genuine in a way that's hard to achieve I think! Like wdym she thinks about she's running out of time to become a mother, afraid of missing on a new life purpose and go "bumping that" a second later? lol The main difference is that she writes her lyrics so we know this is exactly what she wants to say, from deep to fun to shallow, while most kpop artists get the song handled to them along with lyrics that they didn't write, experience or even agree with.
Sorry for jumping onto your comment like this, this is very lighthearted, btw! But I had this same impression about Charli until I started digging into her lyrics and her producing/songwriting process. I don't even listen to her type of music lol but I love how she conveys her emotions through it.
@@akoyaahime I love the deeper discussion of Charli! I do think she is a good lyricist. Songs like So I, Girl so confusing and Apple are built on their personal lyrics.
I don't think it's the core of her popular persona though. The Brat singles are bombastic brags powered by the delivery and instrumentals. Now obviously Lisa doesn't have b-sides but I do think it's reasonable to expect that her b-sides will be more personal. Kpop fans just don't care about b-sides except for groups they stan, and b-sides do often get personal because the audience is fans already invested in the group.
@@bopete3204I totally agree, but adding on the Charli xcx discourse, it's interesting that Girl, So Confusing has blew up and received a remix bc of the talk regarding what she wanted to convey w/ the track!
@@bopete3204 You are right! I think her main listeners comes from people who enjoys her sound more than the lyricism like you said, but as someone that likes lyricsm but doesn't enjoy her type of sound that much, I think that's what drove me into her this era + the production, wow! So I believe one of the lots of reasons she "exploded" with brat comes from these two sides of the public colliding, i'm just guessing tho, but glad you agree!
And you are so right about the b-sides. I really wish companies would let their artists collaborate more on b-sides production. I know some of them do but it would be nice for it to be an standard practice, I think it could add more importance to b-sides!
I can be a bit biased but I truly love charli’s lyrics. Her earliest works such as heartbreaks & earthquakes, true romance all have amazing lyrics which I initially didn’t like it instantly as much due to the production but I gave it a chance and her lyricism never fell short from that point on since. if anything, we witnessed more deep and personal tracks from her and I like how she conveyed heavier topics in brat, which was something I haven’t seen in her earlier release, prior to that
The always be talking about "I'M BREAKING THE RULES" or "I'MMA GO MY OWN WAY", girl you can't even eat a donut unsupervised
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it would have been perfect to mention XG and how theyre uniquely establishing themselves in the global market. Theyre not very loud in a way, but bet theyre gonna make it really big someday.
Agreed.
AND their songwriters are well chosen. left right was a huge hit and pushed them forward, perfectly rnb and nostalgic.
That's really intresting because a lot of these comments are talking about lyrisms and authencity being important to western listeners.
The thing with XG is, their lyrics also aren't that deep. (Their debut was also a self-hype song) But XG's company has done a great job of making the girls feel like authentic artists. I wonder how they did that.
@@W-I463 Another interesting thing is that the majority of the people behind their songs tend to be men so, not only they exude an "authentic aura" performing songs that they didn't take part in writing, but also performing songs from people who don't directly resonate with the group's core audience (if you agree with this line of thinking). That is really curious indeed.
@@W-I463their producer Jakops has an international team with people different ethnicities not just Japanese or Korean on the music side. The girls are also allowed to give input on Choreography to add bits of their own personality and I think that definitely helps them especially since they state they are trying to break stereotypes they have more incentive to be different from other groups.
Yeah I just don’t get who the audience for this group is. I don’t see them appealing to K-pop fans and I don’t see them appealing to western audiences… yes there’s still the rest of the world but I don’t see them appealing to Latino pop listeners or anyone else for that matter 😭
They just create ambigous groups. 😅
It looks like the have no confident to create 100% hollywood GG,. Then juat create ambigous GG, so if it didn't do well in the west mainstream, they still have kpop fans audience.
I think Vcha is weirdly doing good with hispanic fans though. I see so many latinos praising Vcha (Probably because of Camila and Savanna tho)
If they wanted to, at some point, appeal to latinos they messed up, Katseye is being quite badly received aroud here, especially in Brazil, after both LATAM contestants (Samara and Celeste) were eliminated
@@lonelyperson8316 Vcha was well received here in Brazil, when they opened for Twice, in both days they performed, the crowd seemed to know their songs, and sang very loudly
@@stayinneverland Yess I saw that, I also saw many clips of mexican fans cheering for them too. They’re definitely doing great with hispanic fans
Not on the topic of lyricism but one thing that annoys me about the global groups is the lack of a concept. I know katseye hasn't even debut yet and VCHA hasn't really had a first mini album. But what got me excited was to see anyone of any background get to be in a concept that only really happens in kpop, aswell as musically. For example Red Velvet has an overall spooky vibe and then uses this in each comeback in a different way, we got Chill Kill with more apparent creepy visuals and storyline of killing someone, and then we got Cosmic, a midsommar aesthetic with that creepy undertone. Every group has their overall vibe and then each comeback can basically do any concept they want, instead these global groups concept is just "were a global girl group you cant hurt us". Like give us something new and unique, your not gonna make a mark in the western or asian industry with that?
i think vcha so far has that disney live action vibes, or western early twice vibes. not sure if they were what was intended but so far i see a bit of consistency of what i think a vcha song would sound like
can't wait to see more songs like xo call me, definitely one of their best songs, but so far been loving only one and goty too
What's unfortunate here is that I know KATSEYE girlies have talent, but HYBE x Geffen are just holding them back with a weak first official song which doesn't highlight any of these girls' vocal strengths at all, it's all just visual talk and talk singing. Let's hope there's a turn around at some point with the creativity and vocal direction....
Another thing about KATSEYE'S music vision that we're getting so far, is that it's getting to somewhat of a type of western appeal, BUT it's lacking in artistry and depth which is a very important detail in order to create music that appeals to the west. (Think, Pink Pantheress, or Sabrina Carpenter, or Ariana Grande. These girlies can sing, BUT they're also putting out an image or conceptual vision of themselves which make them more memorable to the public. All KATSEYE has been given so far is cute y2k outfits, kick ass choreo and basic tiktok-style cookie cutter baddie-type lyrics. They had potential with the branding before which was mystical, enchanting, futuristic and kind of "witch-like" but their song "Debut" doesn't align or melt together with it at all.)
I think the major problem is having no female lyricists or limited female producers working with GIRL groups. No offence but a man can never fully understand the intricacies and nuances of girl & womanhood especially from the point of view of a woman. So men writing songs for girls & women will always be plagued with superficial lyrics because they are only writing how they perceive girls and women not writing out of lived experience. That’s why the songs sound like something a 40yr old man thinks a young girl or young woman might say rather than what they might actually say. Hollywood has the same problem, writing girls & women in a weird “I’m hot, you’re a hater cause you’re not” type of way, that’s why Olivia & Billie are such a breath of fresh air because they delve into actual girl & womanhood issues form their experiences. Even though they write with men, their voices/experiences are the loudest in the lyricism.
This is a great opportunity for their team to get the girls in the writing room. Vcha and Katseye are both around the age of the demographic they’re trying to reach, so let them write! Plus, it could give them some legitimacy as contributors to their music.
YES !! especially since some of the girls in VCHA have expressed an interest in songwriting and have actually written songs before
i do wonder how xg's discography fits into this discussion since almost ALL of their songs are in english and about empowerment, and yet they seem to be very good at attarcting a global audience
XG's bigger worldview accommodates themes like rising above hate & appreciating the authenticity and uniqueness every person brings to the table. Similar to how aespa has a worldview concept, XG's concept seems to be framing these values differently (& in a more artistic way) via their alien backstory
they just need to be 20+
even us kids under 18 can’t understand who this song is marketing to
I agree, mostly. The #GirlPowerAnthem concept has become largely outdated in the West even longer than girl crush has in K-POP. Similarly with the "flexin on the haters" types of songs as well. I'm not necessarily saying that these kinds of songs cannot be done right, but it requires a certain finesse to make those songs decent, and K-POP almost never does it right and to be honest, I have the same criticism for some of the songs by Fifth Harmony and Little Mix as well. Just lyrics that you can tell were written by a board room of old men, and songs that sound like you'd only hear them in a Claire's.
Speaking of western girl groups, I think they are taking too much inspiration from the ghosts of global girl group' past. We may be in a nostalgic era at the moment, but they aren't taking inspiration from the catchy hooks and melodies of the 2000s period, just the obnoxious parts instead. "Debut" kind of sounds like a lesser, more childish version of "Don't Cha" by PCD.
That being said, I don't think super high quality or deep-meaningful lyricism is necessary for Katseye's success. Not saying it wouldn't benefit them (Debut's lyrics are pretty nonsensical) but I don't think having more average or just good but not deep lyrics would hurt them. What I feel they need the most are better melodies. Debut was way too one-note and the talk-singing also ruins it further, it doesn't have replay value at all. Compare this song to other songs that are popular amongst both the Western GP and what demographic I believe they are aiming for like "Birds of a Feather", "Espresso/Feather/Nonsense", "Good Luck, Babe!" what they all have in common are sweet, easy-listening melodies and catchy hooks, elevated by good lyricism as well. Debut just sounds like a 5h reject from 2012.
I'm seriously rooting for this group because I do think they have potential to be successful, however their team has to play it smart. There is no market for a girl group in the west, you have to focus first and foremost on the quality of the music, otherwise they will go nowhere.
If they stopped debuting young girls then they'd probably finally escape these cringy lyrics oh gosh
I think XG is a group that does english lyricism well. Although, I haven’t properly dissect/analysis their music on a deep level, so I may be fundamentally wrong 😅
Yesss!
I think a good example is xg, their lyrics are top tier without loosing that kpop-esque touch, like concepts and empowerment (ik theyre japanese, theyre marketed as a global group)
Exactly! XG is the perfect example but I also think the girls themselves are very edgy in terms of their artistry and also truly love hip hop and R&B music so it really comes out in their concept
@@GabbyDarioI've seen these girls in an interview video once and I can confirm they have TASTE. They love Kehlani, they know Rihanna songs.
I think these groups should take inspirstion from FLO. They're songs are well written and they can pull of the empowering elements without being cringey.
It's like the global thing is their whole identity. The concept is 'Global' and nothing else it seems like. You know what I mean? The goal is to be as vague as possible and no meaning no theme so it can fit anything cause that's global? very uninspired
I knew I loved your channel for many reasons, but seeing you fund raise for Gaza made me love you even more!
I love VCHA, so i may be biased, but i think they are slightly different than Katseye here because vcha seems to target a younger demographic with their music. Only One definitely has a youthful charm to it, and the same can be said for their previous releases (I think preteens and early teens personally).
Katseye seems to be targeted toward older teens and young adults imo. The dance and outfits really give that away if the lyrics and sound of the music didnt. But just going based on cringy lyrics, songs for a younger demographic arent held to as high of standards as songs that are meant for a more mature audience, resulting in the former receiving much less criticism and the latter receiving more. Whether you think that should be the case or not, this is just what ive observed personally.
I'm in my 20s but music from groups like VCHA are still definitely more of my vibe than the mature and "aggressively" empowering songs that groups like Katseye and, as a larger example, Blackpink put out. While I do appreciate mature songs/themes in music, I wouldnt say Katseye fits the mature type of empowerment that they were maybe going for because, unfortunately, they have an almost childish approach to it.
It kind of reminds me of old-school groups with writers like Max Martin. I do wonder why we used to be okay with nonsensical lyrics, but not as much anymore. I wonder why I’m disappointed by the lyrics in Debut and XG’s Woke Up, but I was never bothered by I Want It That Way.
I think it stems from 2 things.
1: a lot of songs aren’t of high quality nowadays, mainly from production choices and uniqueness, so at the very least you should have good lyrics, which wasn’t a known problem back then.
2: Songs with silly lyrics used to be very self aware. Nowadays (using katzeye as an example) they come swing out the gate with tough badass type lyrics legitimately. It comes off as cringy and taking one’s self too seriously.
Hopefully I made my point clear.
(DONT GET ME WRONG I LOVE KATZEYE 😭)
@@bbi2.052 I think a lot of hit songs right now *are* high-quality, but I agree with choujimi that lyrics matter a lot more in the Western pop scene at the moment. The trend is towards personal, emotional music, even in super catchy songs. Meanwhile, 2010s dancepop and edm was made for blasting at clubs. Those genres just aren’t usually radio hits in the 2020s. I Want It That way still seems like a bit of an outlier in the late ‘90s-early ‘00s R&B ballad scene, but maybe the vocals and production were just so good it didn’t matter?
Maybe the reason I can ignore the bad lyricism of older hits is simply because I don’t have that expectation-the song was already popular when I heard it, so there’s nothing I can get disappointed by like we can for new releases.
@@gemmamoon5998 i might of worded my point wrong. While yes its high quality in production, i meant to say higher in merit compared to the past. (Due to things like TikTok-ification, unoriginally, though doesnt mean modern songs are bad not at all)
I'm happy you made this video, because honestly I want the best for the group, but a 2 minute song with outdated lyrics after 7 months of not hearing from them isn't super promising.
Like don't get me wrong the song isn't bad, it's really catchy, but it just suffers from being to short to tell anything really worth listening to 😅.
Also I don't think it would be so hard to give Sofia actual lines, this might not be their debut, but it is the first song the general public will recognise them for, so I think it is quite a big deal in this case ( I know she's the one mainly singing her chorus parts in their live practice, but it doesn't sound like that in the actual song and I don't like that).
Overall I think the girls can still have a bright future ahead of them, if the companies play their cards right, but I have severe trust issues in that regard 😞.
would you say that some these points also extend to XG? you perfectly articulate how i imagine what people who have issues with XG's lyricism think whenever they complain abt XG's lyric and was wondering how you feel abt that
I think their lyrics got a lot better in Woke Up!
The most I see about xg lyrics is the "real rappers write their raps" discourse and them being marketed as real good rappers even though they dont write their songs or covers themselves tbh
@@carolinesch. Ohhh I see. I get why people would say that but they aren’t just rappers. They’re dancers and performers too so I think it’s a bit different.
@@vortexray8120 true I really like their more melodic songs more but their Marketing is clearly very Rap focused with their rapcovers so I wonder about their companies Plans for them tbh. A lot of the members started crazy young too and have been in the industry for years so I wonder if they will ever write themselves
I never had a problem with XG’s lyrics . . .. they do not repeat syllables ( su su su . .. la la la . . . ) and have nonsensical lyrics and do not adapt a chanting singing style . . .. honestly this issue is only being brought up by those who can’t really find any credible criticism for XG so they go this route . .as for XG not writing their own raps, some in the know or other hiphop heads acknowledge this but were willing to brush it aside as they were more concerned about how well the delivery was and how XG has shown respect to the industry . . . .
Kg has written and produced songs already before debuting in Vcha and we saw Camila perform an own self written rap on A2K. those two can def write songs, just hoping Jyp lets them.
Genuinely they remind me of 5th Harmony😭just the music I’m sure they’re very talented
it's giving fifth harmony...also i feel like this group doesn't seem that appealing to me because i'm not 14 anymore?? idk i'll have to see if their music improves over time
I’m 14, even I hate this song. It’s definitely the writers
@@treubaking omg being from 2010 is crazy😭😭
@@tsuyuasui7297nice cure macherie pfp!
I’m not even 14,I’m 15 and I still think the song is trash
You made so many good points here and then gagged at "can you teach me Japanese I said hai hai"…. I don’t understand 😭
Congratulations, you've had your first experience with sarcasm! Google "Sarcasm" to learn more! :)
XG do it perfectly, they are the best example on that case!
tru dat, those are my girls
@@amiga4everandever their lyrics are so natural
no…i love them but they have some of the worst lyrics ever…just listen to Cocona’s rap in Mascara
@@RoyaleMusicalLol that entire song is terrible, lyrically. I feel like they've definitely improved with the lyricism for that group since then though! You don't think so?
@@FOHaab yeah tbf all their other songs are pretty good lyrics, it’s just mascara that sucks 😭
It's literally ironic how international fans celebrated and praise the lord for the cringiest lyrics in KPOP saying the best album, the best songs, the bop of the year because the groups are famous or the companies are, yet some of the more thoughtful songs are being overlooked. Not only in lyricism, but the entirety of musicality and meaning of the songs, many of the more thoughtful ones are being pushed underground. I guess this is one of the factor why these KPOP companies give them such songs. To be able to differentiate them with those of western releases, as it will still feels like "KPOP" and cater to KPOP audiences. They forgot we could understand at first listen, it becomes 10x cringier and messy. Not talking about all releases, but in general.
imo, i feel like the only one being held back is katseye >< to me, vcha’s concept is inherently… childish? they’re in JYP and their mvs are very bright, for that reason, i don’t think that their lyrics hold them back at all! their slightly corny lyrics sometimes suit their concept, nobody should be expecting deep lyricism from a girlgroup with a 14 year old 😭😭😭 i do think that katseye was meant to appeal to a large audience, not necessarily just young teens, and for that reason i definitely agree that they need to up their lyricism.
Homestly, i had to laugh out loud when you mentioned that the target audience with global groups is mainly the west. With songs that sound like kidz bop and poor lyricism, they won't gain the popularity they want. They have to look for a different strategy.
I was kinda thinking the same thing when I was talking to my friends about it. But one main thing is to expand the vocabulary, like finding words with deeper meanings etc.
Tbh im kinda tired of these messages in all the freaking kpop groups i mean atleast most of them.. looks at XG they do it in English so good but damn the meaning is same like dont mess with me kinda. Blackpink has most of their songs like im the best. Its so so tiring that nowadays we cant find a song that truly suits what we feel. Kpop is now all about looks and dance and dresses...its boring now. Kiss of life's current somg "sticky" is mediocre too...but the dance is very different from other kpop groups.
I'm still hoping for a Spice Girls 90s 2000s type style and with less autotune since they can all sing
Oh i hope this video blows up. I love when people understand their stuff voice their opinion❤️. This advice or analysis can‘t get any better i swear. As someone who studies Marketing Management you‘re spot on and even with calling out their marketing team. Because this is the things that their supposed to pinpoint before even thinking of going this route!! This is what marketeers do!! Not sure where their investing but surely not in any target group analysis and so on. I truly wish for Katseye and Vcha to become successful✨
Off topic but linguistics majors rise!!!!!
I think the bad lyrics are more a symptom of the larger issue that is present in pretty much all of HYBE's output over the past few years. HYBE acts create music for the sole purpose of participating in the music industry, which means that this song doesn't really express or communicate anything because the people that created it had no intention of doing so.
This approach obviously works for short term profits(especially in tandem with a parasocial streaming machine), but if the music is not the priority, then the contexts in which it can be listened to are limited. When people decide what music they want to listen to, they are looking for something that not only grabs their attention, but also something that can be connected to their human experience at some level. If all you have to offer is a front without the substance, then most of your streams are gonna be coming from the grocery store speakers.
I genuinely think it's possible for a kpop style idol group to be well-received while making music in english. They just need to put forth some kind of actual effort into the music itself as a priority, and perhaps even try to be creative in some way.
Yes this is what ive also noticed, people in the west want emotional connection. That sordid intimacy, it doesnt have to be relatable but it has to feel like a confession of something.
I honestly feel like if a west group release a song like Ditto or First Love by Utada Hikaru will do really well. Just makes us feel that the artists also feel the emotions of the songs.
Its so apparent when u watch live videos of Adele, Chappell Roan, Billie. Whenever they sing their pop ballad its this pure emotional energy that u can feel (Adele singing Someone Like You in Brit Awards, Billie Eilish What was i made for in Grammys etc. etc.)
I'm not saying kpop dont have those moments but theres definitely korean songs that HURTS (exo dont go, bts butterfly, newjeans ditto) but most groups right now the songs their promoting end up with something too produced it almost feels plastic
another video already omg choujimi is keeping us well fed 🙏
this reminded me of something, txt said that during their monthly evaluations, trainees had to right their own raps and most of them would be dissing on their haters. beomgyu and soobin laughed and asked rhetorically who were they dissing on since they had no haters
one ofthe global gg i have been listening recently is XG. The lyrics in woke up is just chef’s kiss it’s so satisfying to listen to
Brandings also weird with these groups and their lyrics.
I think Vcha works or could work cuz they have a clear brand. There isn’t much tween content in this day and age and I feel like if there was then vcha would be part of it.
They aren’t Disney channel levels of squeaky clean per say, but they’re pg and super fun. They aren’t annoying and trying to talk down to they’re young fans either. Nor are they specifically “kids content”.
Katseye seems like it’s trying to be a group that gets the same respected as genuine music artists that could compete with big charting names. In that case then they’d need to ditch the generic lyrics. I also think they should focus on vocals more than dance. I know it’s usually the opposite w hybe but still.
2 videos in a row :) Thanks you so much for your hard work choujimi, I always enjoy your videos !
A pop song doesn't have to be deep, but it does need to be a little witty. These days with the biggest pop girlies there is sense ot humour to them, like Sabrina carpenter her lyrics are often dumb, but they're dumb in a way that is fun and cheeky and full of personality.
I feel like thats the current trend we are seeing, a little relatable, a little tounge in cheek, embracing pop aesthetic without fully buying into them.
baeeee omg they cookin u on twtt😭😭
Wait what were they saying? I’m nosy😭
i love the takes!!! id like to see opinions of groups such as xg where they also sing in english and have that "global" standpoint, despite them sitting in a different podium than let's say, vcha or katseye?
Really good video!
in my harsh opinion, international girl groups don't work in general. international groups are obviously trying to appeal to the west, but it's never successful. the answer is simply because we don't care for girl groups and never really have. sure, maybe if these international groups had better music they'd be more known in the west, but i even then I really don't think that'll change our minds about girl & boy groups.
yeah, honestly, why haven’t these companies made an “international boy group”? what girl group has been so obsessed over to the point people develop parasocial relationships with members for YEARS? bts, beatles, one direction… people go CRAZY for boy groups but only seem to go crazy for solo female acts such as taylor swift, ariana grande, or billie eillish.
you hit it out of the park!!!
i think vulnerability is really hot right now which is basically impossible to create in this current kpop landscape. chapell roan, billie a, charli and even sabrina are talking about their flaws and shortcomings. yes they are bad bitches but there are also bad at love and insecure
A big part of why these songs turn me off is because they're blatantly studio produced. Like they're just selling girl power music with the expectation we'd eat it up but there's no actual activism or depth behind it. It's all heavy handed "you can do anything" bravado that is almost patronizing.
The way I got curious about the groups by the way stan twt talked about them amd then I looked at their streaming numbers, let me tell you I was shocked. I thought there were at least on the Level of some groups from mid Level kpop companies given the fact they are from big companies and had a show behind the members selection. I am curious to see how far they will go with the start both of them had into their careers and how high the expections and goals have been set by the companies of they dont Blog up or get bigger
What i hate is this channel saying its not to hate any global kpop group but here we are with the shittiest reasoning just to start a talk. First of all, most of kpop fans specially if its not their bias group can be easily fooled on hating someone by just making a video about it. Thats why KPOP Fandom is so toxic. And making a hate video about the new innovation of kpop is just another food for those hungry beast to devour.
If u dont have a mom, maybe u wont get it. But most mother always taught their son/daughter, if you will only talk shit THEN DONT TALK!
it's giving itzy...but KATSEYE's empowerment message is so general that it doesn't really stand out as a girl power song. that's my primary thing. but i hope they get better lyrics, especially considering how clearly talented/skilled they are---I mean, their synchronization is ridiculous.
Love the video! I've been thinking about how the absence of "fan-translators" like doolset bangtan, do you bangtan?, BTS trans/subs, armysalon, etc. has affected how people consume the music of (Hybe's biggest group), and by extention other kpop groups. Point being, I'd like to think that there IS a kpop fan audience for music with more complex lyricism, everywhere in the world. Maybe it's not young, or not the fans who are currently listening, but I think there is a market for it. AND it can feel like sometimes, companies, and execs, and the artists themselves, just don't seem to know that appealing to a slower form of music consumption can lead to longer term success. (To me, complex lyricism and reading lyrics with music in any language, but especially one the audience doesn't know, is a form of "slower consumption".) However, it's also possible the kpop music industry just doesn't believe that they will survive without focusing on quick money, but frankly I think it's more niave to think that way, than the opposite.
i agree. i think it’s evident that a lot of the writers writing these english lyrics are not native speakers, or at the very least not american and/or not a part of the younger generation whose vocabulary they are trying to use. in korean, even if the lyrical content is cliche or shallow, they at least have the ability to make a song and its lyrics flow correctly and sound pleasing to the ear as they understand the nuances of that language. just the same way any western pop artist can do the same in english, tons of popular pop songs all sing about the same old stuff but because it’s crafted by native english speakers they understand the nuances that make a song work and how to avoid the subtle pitfalls that make something sound cringey or corny. i think these things are naturally much harder to grasp for non-native speakers, as a lyric can be completely grammatically correct, etc. etc. (even though some still aren’t lol) but there are other subtle aspects that can’t really be taught and are just naturally picked up on by native speakers. just the same way native speakers of any language can almost always tell when someone else isn’t a native speaker due to the differences between how a language is taught and how it’s actually used conversationally, and there are really sooo many nuances that you can only really grasp them all holistically if you are immersed in that language at all times like native speakers are. even native speakers don’t always succeed, there are plenty of songwriters who make stuff seen as “corny” or even pandering (for example, katy perry as of late has been teasing a new era that is pretty universally being seen as corny and trying too hard to appeal to a certain lgbt audience). i think there is just frankly too many of these small obstacles to clear in terms of english lyrics, and while there are a few good examples that have succeeded (rv bad boy we love you), english lyrics usually do best as small phrases used as interjections amongst korean lyrics. these kpop companies really need to hire american native english speaking writers to, at the very least, act as consultants for english lyrics if they want to be taken seriously in the western market (which they seem desperate to be). there will always be a difference between proficiency and true fluency in a language, and in a language so complex and idiosyncratic as english it’s honestly not worth these companies time and money to keep trying to improve the english lyrics themselves rather than outsourcing them to actual english lyricists.
xg is a good example of how "haters back off" lyrics in english can be made cool and digestable, their songs are well loved by their fans. their concepts and style is just dripping coolness, they cant be compared to anyone. they don't lean too much into western or asian girl group vibe, they're able to give something completely new to the audience
I guess that the bigger picture is the target market of kids, teens and adults combined.
Vcha (mini twice) lean more on kids/ early teens so lyrics must be "parent-approved" and yet inspiring, love themes wont be aloud to be very messy as Rodrigo or Elish could do as they were teens. So they have the "cringe" potential for older teen and adults due naivety and simplistic view.
Katseye (I was expecting American le serrafim) is between teens / adults. This first song have a lot of song bites, not only the chorus, good for using on tiktok type of videos. Way cachy then their pre debut originals. I guess they will try a "light" girl crush next to show off "coolness". If they did something "like that" of babymonster (which their ages are more appropried) in the west I guess the expectation would be to go on the sexy route, what would be worst for building up their initial reputation with younger audience. I have learned about US kids bop thing.
But I am aware that did train in heels dance style that is a staple of sexy concepts, it will come. Hopefully way later.
Man, I think you nail it. I am not a native english speaker. I didn't know anything about the forming of this group. So when the song comes up, I can only say that their singing and dancing is quite interesting, but the song itself is forgettable. I guess analyzing it from the songwriting perspective explains most of it. Depending on their market target, they can't simply adopt a Kpop song formula and switch the language. KOF and XG are two groups that come into mind that releases songs in English and I find myself quite drawn to the lyrics.
Also, they are playlisting in kpop playlists but not in any western playlists on spotify
I agree. I actually don’t know much about this global groups projects, but even I can tell they don’t have a clear direction market wise; actually, I would say they fall into a very ambiguous zone, they are trying to appeal to the western market, they are also keeping the kpop sound and idol system, but at the same time they don’t define themselves as one thing or the other and it ends up being a weird mix.
Kpop it’s already global, it didn’t need to change the language or the sound to become successful in the west, so what exactly are they trying with these projects? Are they going to separate themselves from the kpop world by targeting more wide audiences but while keeping some aspects of kpop? That would be interesting IF they where actually doing it. They need to quickly decide what they are gonna do bc at the time being they are only known by kpop fans and they just come across as kpop wannabes but in English, which, like you said, fans already hate that.
(Not hating by the way, wishing them the best)
You seem very versed knowledgeable and experienced good ethos.
songs don’t need to have serious lyrics/meaning they can just be fun pop songs. idk why people have strayed away from this concept and for some reason they expect every song to be deep and meaningful 😭😭 the song doesn’t really convey a story or message but I think that’s okay it doesn’t have to 🤷♂️
Very good video. I also like analyzing or sometimes overlooking some kind of important events in kpop and debut of vcha and katseye is one of them.
I think companies don't know whom to market and how to market these groups for now.
And does anyone know where vcha is? They dropped single in March and gone since then, silence.
Choujimi is feeding us lol 🫶😭
I think the art direction should be geared towards modern K-pop- close up glamour shots, synchronized dance and outfits, subtle MV narrative that isn’t heavy handed, and heavy camera and fx manipulation.
But I think they should stick to nostalgia of 2000s pop and R&B without the corny and childish lyrics. They are closer to being an adult/mature group than they are for kids in both group name, age, and personality.
Trying to appeal to everyone leads to lacking a clear vision and missing a defined target audience. They already have one: upper teen and young adult international k-pop fans. It’s easier to have younger fans latch on to them with a mature but in touch direction than older fans latching on with a cringy childish direction.
katseye's song sounded good, but their lyrics were so 💀
i hate cringy lyrics so much, or just bad lyrics in general. if the lyrics aren't good, the song isn't good enough. if you want to make a song, at least make it meaningful by writing meaningful lyrics.
i need companies to stop making bad carbon copies of k-pop groups that will sizzle out in less than a year and focus on making good girl groups
Really great rundown, it got to the heart of why the song felt dated instead of nostalgic imho.
i just can’t get over the pre-release being called “debut”. i think global kpop groups are fine but at least make your song titles make sense in terms of communicating what it is intended to be 🫠
the type of music these groups make will never reach the US market