You see, I actively agree with this notion. High tier edh play was sweet, playing cards only legal in vintage (and commander) was sweet. Now its, hey neat. Thanks for this clearly marketed for me card. I'll try really hard not to break it accidentally 🙃
IKR WTH are they doing to their game? Let US determine the META. Stop making FOR-COMMANDER OVERPOWERED necessities that are making it a "must run" in decks and causing a rift in the player base.
I really do miss old commander. Now, at my lgs gotta make the most cancer I can. While I enjoy playing with my friends as well. It has sadly been much more a race to the bottom as well as a battle of the wallets moreso than the game that got me back into magic. We actually started playing modern commander to allow for more refreshing gameplay. Not allowing anything before 8th edition. Though things like commander legends are fine, though a card printed in let's say, 5th edition and reprinted in some random set would be banned and only allowed if it enters the standard rotation. We still have op agent and jeweled lotus but things like demonic consultation are at least something you see every game. We still play cEDH games but I miss the days when the format was a fun new and unsolved frontier. Zur is the only old commander I can remember who is still top tier but literally everyone else has either been forgotten or sacked. As Thrasios and Tymna literally erased them from the competitive format. I'm running food chain sliver just to have some diversity. I think most people at my shop run T&T just because its so good. I understand that not all shops will play like this. Though, with the format only getting faster. It has made sure to abandon previous decks which used to be played. Rest in piece, Boonweaver Karador you shall be missed.
it was a sure way to get people to buy alllll the product. I'm not saying "greedy profit motive only" for Gavin and his design team, but if you think they are not thinking about the chase cards making their design profitable while they design cards for the format, then you are giving them too much credit. I could hire a 18y/o and have him/her come up with "commander black lotus" or "mono green Kodama partner that combos with almost all other magic cards" and they would make them easily... but the team doesn't seem talented enough to fix 'Commander specific' power gaps such as designing opposition agent in white instead of black, or hullbreacher in white instead of blue. And if JLK is telling the truth about testing these cards with designers, it's obvious that their claims of 'help white/red, don't make green/black/blue stronger" are going in one ear and out the other.
@@tomragnarok6538 agree 100%. Worth noting that Hasbro gave Wizards 5 years to double their profits, so the idea that JLK alluded to in this episode, that Wizards employees don't care about the money, is kind of irrelevant. Like, yeah, maybe Gavin agrees with Josh that this card shouldn't be printed, but when the higher ups ask if this card will make more money do you think Gavin is gonna lie?
Nice. Without needing too much persuasion & reason, I’m happy fer almos any reaction that slaps Hasbro/WotC in the face & kick em in their nutz. A very early ban on Lotus, definitely would.
With a disclaimer like that, you can feel how abused these guys have been recently. Rule #783 - it's not your fault. Two things you don't seem to be focused on with Opposition Agent: Another person is pawing at your property & tutoring can be stupid slow depending on who does it, have someone tutor another person's library and now you're watching that person read 100 pieces of paper for 25 minutes.
@@MaTrIXBaws i don't mean to cast the card, i mean you can just time walk them. T7, they play evolving wilds, crack it. you flash in Opposition Agent, tap all their lands. At best, they have to use that mana this phase, at worst it is just rinsed off. I'm also assuming you can't play instants while you search? otherwise this is total grief on a stick
@@benmccarthy6702 you don’t receive priority or pay for any costs. You can see their hand, facedown cards and all that, but you can’t tap mana because you don’t have the opportunity to do that
@@Cyberium I mean, if we really think about it... your opponent tutors or casts bribery and you use Opposition Agent, you just gave mono white access to, and this is on a varying scale: Omniscience Jin Gitaxias Progenitus Etali, Primal Storm Zendikar Resurgent Expropriate and with those few examples, makes mono white pretty busted. Now the question comes down to, can mono-white even ramp to those big spells, and with all of this artifact mana, and the ability to spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast those cards, I see this being a snap keep in a mono white deck.
When I saw Opposition Agent for the first time, I didn't realize it was a permanent effect on a creature. I thought it was a "when it ETB you do that" so I thought you stole a single tutor from a player, and that it was pretty damn good already for just 3 mana like that. Then I realized it stayed on the field and just messed with everything and everyone.
Man I thought I was the only one hahahaha , I thought , woow it steals 1 tutor , great card , idk y ppl are discussing about this card, and then .. hey ... this is a permanent effect .... mind blowing in 3...2...1... LOL
The card does way too much for three mana. It's like they designed it from the wrong end, like instead of asking: what does it need to do to be good enough to be playable and do the job it is supposed to, meaning, fucking with tutors, they asked: what can we get away with? 3 mana instant speed deny tutoring on a body would already have been decent. Slap Deathtouch on it and you got yourself a nice situational card. But did they stop there? No, you also get to look through your opponent's entire deck, and figure out their game plan. But it doesn't stop there either. You also get to steal pieces from their deck, and to add insult to injury, you get to play those pieces yourself, and of course you don't need to fix your colors for that, which would have been an option, since "any color" on things like Darksteel Ingot isn't restricted to your deck's color identity. And that still isn't the end of it. Instead of making it an ETB, it's a static effect. In a color that has easy graveyard access. That card is just wrong.
This was an excellent episode. There were a couple moments that really stood out to me. Josh's behind the scenes input was very interesting. From what Gavin has said he doesn't seem to think the Lotus is good enough to be a problem but clearly some people in the design stage saw it. It looks like there needs to be more weight given to the feedback process. If the testers were like, "This card is just all downside as a play pattern," then it should have gotten a rework. I also liked the few moments they spent talking about other formats. As someone who spends more time with eternal formats than commander it was good that have that. Thanks guys for taking some time to address problematic cards.
Bauble is overrated and it's basically become a meme at this point thanks to all the 'Mitching' about it. Don't get me wrong, it's still a good ramp card. But, it's NOWHERE near as good as everyone seems to believe.
@@vahnthemannraseru1810 Try to be clam a civil just like Josh and Jimmy suggested you should be. You have used profanity against another person, made undocumented claims (what Mitch uses his private money also doesn't seem to be important). If Commander Quarters is not for you and you want to spend more money on cards, then by all means do so. However, it doesn't mean Commander Quarts isn't a useful channel for those how want to make cheap commander decks.
@@Tupiaz To add to that even if you're not on a budget, you can still find some good combos, like, the fact that Mirror Entity isn't a 40 dollar card doesn't stop it from being baller in a Rin and Seri deck.
there has never been a time when commander wasn't a broken format. commander is getting more popular the more people that play the format the more efficient the format will become. people will "solve" the format. even if people separate them selves from cedh. a top end of casual commander will still develop below cedh.
I'm actually really excited about all the cool new toys they've been giving us! I'd rather have cards printed that are strong enough to push out old ones than have nothing to get excited about. Staleness sounds boring, I don't really get that mindset.
Off-topic, but I thought it was cool to hear that y’all were play-testing this two years ago. Will y’all do a similar video for the cards and interactions you found in play-testing that really got you excited for the set?
I really, _really_ wonder why they made Opposition Agent's effect a static effect. That seems to be the main problem to me (from a gameplay perspective), more so than the perhaps awkward coloring or the casting cost. Consider a version of it with the following text: Flash, haste {T}: Until end of turn, the next time an opponent would search a library, you search that library instead. Exile each card you find. You may play those cards for as long as they remain exiled, and you may spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast them. This wouldn't be particularly bad. It doesn't need to sacrifice itself (the table will probably take care of that for you) and it won't stop everyone from playing (since it's probably going to be tapped immediately when you play it, giving other players a one-turn window to adapt). Some decks can obviously mess with untapping it for greater effect, or sacrificing it and recurring it. It would overall be quite balanced in my opinion, and not a problematic card at all - quite fun, in fact.
Power Creep, plain and simple. Your idea makes it a fair card, that works sometimes when you really want it to. It challenges the player to find the right moment to use it, and gives others a chance to avoid its punishment. But forget all that crap, just all upside, all the time. See Oko, Uro, Questing Beast, insane Commanders, etc etc.
Ok, Gavin designed the card, he thought "this could be cool in commander", its fine, no complains. Then Josh tests it and advises not to print it, good call. Then Wotc does it anyway.... the only honest and reasonable explaination here is that Wotc did it anyway because...money. So when you say "people working for MTG are good people", ok, again, fine, they are just doing their jobs. But you cant deny THE ONE ulterior motive that drives Wotc: maiking more money. And that needs to be said.
I think most of the misdeeds come from Hasbro not WotC, or are twisted. Of the, admittedly few, people I've met from WotC they were all really cool. And yeah, designers probably just make things that are fun, or interesting, then it goes for balancing. We aren't mad at the designers... they aren't the ones who have the last say in corporate mis/handling.
But it’s making short turn game at the cost of destroying the format in the long run... eventually this will lead to less people wanting to play and eventually a shift to other games
@@yoyepo91 Unfortunately there's not really anywhere else for people to go if they are looking to get away from fast, powerful cards creating fast, powerful metas. Magic and in particular commander is like the last hold out for that sort of more casual, varied playstyle.
@@TB317 and its being destroyed for profit because the fans refuse to demand op old cards be banned. opposition agent for example is a counter to cheap tutors like demonic tutor that simply shouldn't exist. Its sad to see the power levels continually rise instead. in 5 years I wonder if even casual commander decks will be winning by turn 6
This is why you should run a better mulligan. 9-4-2 Draw 9, 'scry' 4 away, draw 2. No shuffling, no redraws. (If you can show 0 lands in opening 9 and people trust your deckbuilding, then you can reshuffle + redraw).
@@n3wm3r1c5 I haven't met anyone that disliked it after trying it. :) Let me know if you run into any problems or make any tweaks to it for your playgroup. Back when there was any contention about mulligans, we also let lowest roll (when rolling for first) pick the mulligan.
Neither is broken but the they definitely don't need to print cards on jeweled lotuses power level. The jeweled lotus just works to homogenize the format. It may not be broken but if someone pulls or buys one their playing it whenever possible. We really just don't need more 0 Mana ramp artifacts that are 100's of dollars.
Yea I totally agree. I just think it doesn't help the format, at all. If someone draws Jeweled Lotus on turn one or two, it will give them a massive advantage. If they draw it any later, it's pretty meh, if not a dead draw. So really it never does anything good for a game. I think Opposition Agent is totally fine, powerful maybe but not busted at all.
To be fair, not everyone dislikes 0 mana artifacts. I love them, and I play them in specifically two (sometimes three) out of my 7 commander decks - the cEDH ones. I'm super hyped for jewled lotus because now I get to know what it feels like to play black lotus. BIG NOTE: I won't be playing this in any of my casual decks - I don't think it's designed for casual commander play, and I don't think every card made for commander should be designed specifically for casual commander: casual commander is NOT 100% of the player base. It is the majority, and the majority of cards should be, and are, designed for casual commander. I will add: I think they probably could've done a better job about putting a restriction on this card that would've made it appear less in casual games due to a lower power level, but I do still think it's restrictive enough to not see that much play in casual games along side it's mythic rare price point. If someone is playing a pre-con level deck and they pull and run this card, that's fine. But as soon as you get even slightly into the constructed level of commander, this card shouldn't be played unless you're nearing cEDH level stuff, or you're using this card in an Ayula bear tribal deck (or the like). If jeweled lotus is played against me when I'm using my Syr Gwyn voltron deck (with none of the swords in it to regulate power level) I'm going to be upset, at the PLAYER, not the card (unless of course they bring out Ayula, or the like). Every time I sit down at the table I ask for power levels and pull out the deck that matches what other people are playing. Syr Gwyn is my weakest deck, so I pull that out to play with pre-con or slightly above pre-con level decks. I won't be expecting to play against mana crypt or jewled lotus while at those tables. Sol ring is fine because it's the face of the format, and I along with many others, got drawn to the format because we get to play ridiculous cards like sol ring. I want a couple more cards like this (like Josh said, the more of these there are the closer the format gets to becoming completely power creeped), and I like that jeweled lotus has drawbacks and restrictions to make it so that it's not played in every deck like sol ring or mana crypt is (I personally don't even think this card is going to see as much play as josh though when he evaluated the top 21 commanders. Akiri, for example, definitely shouldn't run jeweled lotus). If they do make more cards like this, I want them to be closer to chrome mox/mox diamond, where you get ramp at the cost of card advantage. Cards like that are FAR less likely to be seen at casual tables, simply because they aren't as good in decks that don't have consistent ways to regain that advantage back by using that mana. Mox amber, for example, is a great power level for fast mana. Mox tantelite was underwhelming, and probably should've just been suspend 2. Regardless, the community is definitely overreacting. I agree that more cards like this should become a problem, but I don't expect them to be making a SECOND black lotus "reprint", at least not in my lifetime lol. I do expect another mox soon, since it's been quite a while and the last one was in modern horizons, which was over a year ago now. I just hope the community doesn't overreact to that as well.
@@StretchyPlays So it's a worst sol ring is what you're saying. Jeweled lotus, though strong, is not as crazy as people like to claim. As you said, in the early game it's powerful, but after your commander is out, it does nothing for you. Turn one Sol ring will give you more mana and more value over the course of the game then the lotus will. It loses even more value. There are also answers to it in the form of stuff like Mental Misstep. So it's not like it's a sure shot anyways.
I don’t like when people attack people at wizards personally. But saying that they don’t print things just to make money is just wrong. It’s also important to realize that even if they are printing cards to make money it’s not the people designing cards or the sets fault it’s the Company that is telling them that this product whatever it might be has to sell.
Yeah. They don't blindly design 300 cards, then let Joe down in the mail room slap the rarities on them. They know they're producing cards that will sell, and create supply shortfalls for those cards. Might as well be Konami.
This all day. Because players shun mass land destruction, green has almost no weaknesses. If you say creature board wipes, then you don't understand green as well as you think. Green has way too many things it can do and almost no counterplay. There is a reason why green is the top used mono color as well as the most common color used as a support color. I think the only exception is black because it tutors. Oddly enough green can do this really well. Mainly because the tutors are typically to go find creatures and green has a creature for just about every effect in the game that is relevant. Green also doesn't care about casting costs cause it can ramp 3 times faster than average. It also can draw cards, only surpassed by blue..barely. it can gain life. Has some of the biggest creatures in the game. It has ramp ( did I say that already? Well that is how rediculously powerful it is), it can destroy just about any permanent. It can counter it's enemy colors better than its enemies can counter them outside Acid Rain (refer to mass of comment earlier). It can recur and recycle cards from the graveyard. The only thing green can't do is counter spells (unless you count Life force),
@@architectofdreams73 The problem is that mass land wipes like Armageddon don't *just* hit the green player (and the green player will recover from that faster than the rest of the table), and targeted land destruction won't keep up with their ramp unless you're literally just sitting on them the whole game, which isn't really fun for either player. But besides that, it isn't just that green has the best ramp that's problematic, it's also like you said about how it's also not really *bad* at anything.
They did get some pretty good cards. Keeper of the Accord is a pretty damn decent card. Akroma's Will can and will have good impact and is versatile. They probably could have given them a juicy reprint like Enlightened Tutor if they could bring back vamp tutor, but overall those 2 cards are going to be decent additions. If your hope was for them to suddenly give white cEDH material cards it's going to be a lot harder than you think with what whites color identity is to bring it even remotely close to the big colors in cEDH, but it got some good battle cruiser magic stuff.
There's like 2 white cards I really like. All but 1 of the white partners aren't viable. Felidar retreat style effects that give heaps of value would've been very welcome
@@braddorcas9363 Whits color identity is basically Wizards wish it disnt exist. Opposition Agent is whites identity, and given to black. Meanwhile white got a mythic rare equipment that is terrible.
@@GodwynDi Oh agreed the agent should be whites based on the color pie. I just don't think it actually helps them like people want where they already have plenty of affects that do similar things, so it's not like they need it to survive and the fact that it wasn't given to them here is whats causing whites problems. White needs something else to stand on it's own. White is a great support color but thats about it, and giving it opposition agent wouldn't have broken that mold at all. Just my opinion though. I don't think it'll ever be cEDH power level strong, they'd have to push way to many cards in a short time period to catch it up. But they definitely need to help it out in the 7-8 power level battle cruiser style of magic.
I believe that Gavin designs cards with a good intent. I also believe that Hasbro puts pressure on designers to make cards that sell packs regardless of the impact they have on the game long term. These are not mutually exclusive.
Let me guess before even watching: "these are stupid but commander is self regulating so it's fine" Edit: Aight, I thought this was gonna be a lot of apologia for the design but I was wrong. You guys hit the nail on the head, thank you!
When I started playing commander, people just take all the cards that they didn't use and made a deck, it was very experimental. The format now have so many staples that the decks looks very similar. My problem with those 2 cards are not they effect, but how you both said, its costs and color. A 0 mana ramp artifact, a 3 mana black card who manipulates tutor on the color who tutors it, I think that exist space for a more elegant design.
I think opposition agent is far more agregious than jeweled lotus. It’s black. It shouldn’t be. Ramp turned off. Jeweled lotus is overrated, I think people see that the card is ridiculous and the social contract will correct for it. It’ll be a problem In Cedh though.
@@AccelusDominus hullbreacher should also be a different color. Preferably white. But that being said, there is a precedent for that kind of effect in blue. Notion thief is a perfectly fine blue(and black) card that establishes a space for blue to be tricky and mean in that way. I just wish it didn’t ramp. It makes flavor sense for it to make treasure though. I think that card is fine. Not ideal but not something to worry too much about.
@@elijahdavila3684 it’s overrated in the sense that the player base in general is making a significant hullabaloo over it. And I think people are over rating how much it’ll actually be used.
That's still abusable since you can keep yourself from losing if you're the one that cracks the Lotus. Instead it would be more detrimental like this: "As long as Jeweled Lotus is in your graveyard, your opponents can't lose the game."
@Servbot 40 So let's just ban all those cards then. Easy enough. Another problem is that Commander is a "casual" format that is at this point so ubiquitous with Magic that it can't really afford to be so laissez-faire with its rules and banlist anymore.
@@abderianagelast7868 agreed. Fast mana has caused a nearly irreparable issue with the "casual" side of the format since its inception. WotC only managed to make it seem accessible by reprinting Sol Ring into every commander set ever made and then when they released Arcane Signet they repeated the process (and I wouldn't even consider that "fast" mana, it's just an efficient rock).
These two cards can create big and extremely uneven advantage early in games, but maybe the more serious problem is that they are just too easy. The thing that makes EDH fun is that most decks can't be perfectly tuned. Magic cards, and the game itself, have generally been designed so that cards and plays that create such big effects also pose big potential drawbacks. Players use their cunning to navigate situations with clever opponents and lots of interactions that can derail a deck strategy. But there is no downside to playing either of these two cards. They give players who use them big advantage without any consequences. They are "glue cards" that smooth out decks for faster, easier wins.
Also, Opposition Agent just feels like a better version of Aven Mindcensor and somewhat Leonin Arbiter. I personally like the sultai colors, but to just simply make blue and black have better versions of what should be in white's wheelhouse is disappointing. I felt kinda the same way when they gave black efficient enchantment removal, not necessarily that black got it, just that black now may eventually take that away from white when white should be able to do it better.
@@leviangel97 also, in an episode of dies to removal, the professor talked about how he saw Mark Rosewater at an airport, and Mark just ranted to him about how much of a mistake white getting path to exile was, since it is not part of white's slice of the pie to get unconditional removal, and also how much he hates commander. I feel like this whole thing may have something to do with Mark, but I definitely could be wrong.
Two hot takes: 1 - Opposition Agent would be less problematic if it said “exile each NONLAND card they find.” It might be a little more confusing and you could still make people fail to find lands, but you wouldn’t be forced to. You could choose to leave the lands alone, or it could even be a political tool. “Ok, I’ll let you Skyshroud Claim normally, but you owe me one.” 2 - I don’t play Sisay, but I think Sisay would play Lotus. Ramping on Turn 3 to play her on Turn 4 and immediately activate seems strong.
"One does not simply ignore the power of ramp and fast mana" R.I.P Boromir son of Denethor II. "We wants it, we needs it, my precioussss!!!!" - Smeagol (Gollum)
I am going to be honest, this whole trend of Commander being pushed towards lower CMC and higher power etc has made me not want to play the format that much anymore. It's just no longer fun.
@@seanedgar164 Agrees to what? Ban every card that leans a bit on the more powerful side? They went through this in the episode that this is a problem because you cannot just go through every card in everyones decks and ask if it is too powerful or not. The problem has nothing to do with any specific card being too powerful . The problem is many cards that are only slightly too powerful
I dont like jeweled lotus, but in my casual playgroup it won't have much effect. The big issue here for me 8s Opposition Agent and even Hullbreacher. While I actually like what the Agent does, I agree it should have been 2WW or 2WR. Hullbreacher, in my opinion, should have been either 2W or 2WU because it is SO reminiscent of Smothering Tithe. Basically a Nothion Thief stapled to a Smothering Tithe.
I do like Opposition Agent as a concept, but the card is so all-encompassingly powerful that it's ridiculous. It's cheap, it has flash, it's a respectable 3/2, it stops your opponent from tutoring, you can tutor for a card yourself, AND it stays on the battlefield permanently?! This would have already been a black staple if it was just an ETB effect, a 1/1 without flash, or had a mana cost of 5+. I don't understand why they crammed so much into it without any downsides.
Would have been interesting if they made Jeweled Lotus into something like a "Lotus Sprite". Make it a 0/1 flyer with the same ability. Make it so it has summoning sickness.
i usually tend to agree with you, but with opposition agent i don't. it is a rogue type effect and a white rogue would break the color pie more imo. also i like having another option for landfall counterplay and punishing expensive manabases, which not everyone has access to. also if it was 4 or 5 cmc it would be so much worse. you can't just hold that much mana open usually. and as JLK stated i like that it might bring down tutor density a bit.
Thanks for the GREAT content! Regarding Jeweled Lotus, I am most excited about it assisting to casting cost prohibitive commanders (not even necessarily overly powerful ones) to open up seeing these commander actually played and cast.
I would argue that Jeweled Lotus is powerful, but narrow enough that I'm not up in arms about it. Opposition Agent is powerful and always good unless you're at a pretty low power table (where nobody can afford tutors, including fetch lands). That puts it pretty much on the line for what I would consider a design mistake. Hullbreacher is really powerful in any playgroup (who doesn't like to draw cards?), so much so that I'm willing to call it a mistake.
Well... "The conversations can't get that long." I like this statement; it helps by pointing out why, even if some people complain about it, maintaining a ban list is required for all TCGs, even one as generally excellent as MtG. Not everyone can be perfect, even game designers; if cards are made that are inherently unhealthy for the game or for a format, the ban list can bring balance to the Force. The one great lesson we can learn from Konami's Yugioh TCG is this very thing: ban lists must exist.
The reason which justifies it being a black and not white is as follows: Its not prohibiting, it is stealing the effect for yourself. It is a decisively dimir thing to do. There are a lot of cards in black and blue that do that. Moreso in blue but still.
Some variations to Opposition Agent that would made it less powerful, but still potentially useful: 2BR Flash If an opponent would search their library, you may flip a coin. If you win the flip, You control your opponents while they’re searching their libraries. While an opponent is searching their library, they exile each card they find. You may play those cards for as long as they remain exiled, and you may spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast them. If you lose the flip, discard a card. If you cannot discard, you lose 3 life. OR Maybe 2B Flash You control your opponents while they’re searching their libraries. While an opponent is searching their library, they exile each card they find. T: Sacrifice Opposition Agent. Until end of turn you may play cards exiled this way. You may spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast them.
Yeah, they are designed for CEDH which is a part of the format. I find a right decision to put powerful cards for that part of the players too ^^ I don't think it is wrong. You don't like it? Your playgroup doesn't like it? Don't play it ^^
I absolutely agree with you about Opposition Agent's color identity and mana cost. While I'd love this to be white, white, white it probably more fairly costed at 4 mana. Though I have admit that this effect feels boros, red steals stuff, white prevents library searches. Yeah, its really a boros effect
Opposition Agent as far as effects go, is an Orzhov card. Black is the master of tutors and has cards to control players, while white restricts tutors. Red tends to steal things temporarily at best. I would be ok with it costing 2WB easily
Agreed, i'm not looking forward to playing against hullbreacher, for oposition agent they mostly depend on me using my own tutors/fetches(except for the 2 or 3 cards) and I control the timing for those effects, but wheels are a thing that affects every player
I love how we've been talking about Smothering Tithe like it's the second coming of white, and for no reason whatsoever we get a complete upgrade in blue. It straight up denies the draw, has flash, is a mana cheaper, and is in a much better color. I think I hate this card even more than Jeweled Lotus. You can justify using Rule 0 on Jeweled Lotus, but Hullbreacher is just niche enough where it will probably get past rule 0 and now we're all just stuck with this garbage.
I think you still run Jewelled Lotus with Kenrith and Sisay, you just actually want to use it a bit later. Now I can cast my commander and be more likely to have the mana available to also activate it.
Re: Opposition Agent - the “traitor” cycle messes with what their color does best. Black is the best tutor. Personally I think forcing the game back to 100 card singleton instead of 5 important cards, everything else is tutors or tools to draw into tutors, is good for the health of the format. Tutors speed the format up just as much as fast mana does.
Yes, lets print cards in colors that hose things those colors do, so that the colors with the best effects become even more powerful. Great idea WOtC...
@@theOmnissiah8 admittedly at the time I made my comment I wasn't aware that the whole set was released or hadn't seen it Now that I know it's not a cycle, I agree, it should have just been 2W for both of them.
I'm on the other end of the spectrum guys. I love cards that REALLY push the format and effect almost ALL metas. Just for context though guys, in my meta tutors almost always get a groan and an eye roll... so when I see something that really shakes up the kinda predictable, nigh cliché, EDH rubric of tutor for win-con...win game, I get excited. To put it bluntly, to all who hate on HP cards that envigorate the format and force change, I say... get good scrub!
How is it a very negative thing or an "ulterior" motive that a group of employees of a capitalist company are making a decision to "just" make money. That's literally your responsibility. That isn't the problem. The Problem is prioritizing short term profits over long term sustainability. And prioritizing sales over the community that uses the product sold.
The problem is that for some reason the player base has decided that making money is bad. Like how the professor is all about buy singles unless their from wizards then it’s horrible to do so.
Because we are not that company. That company making money is fine, but it doesn't help us. So if something ultimately just exist for the benefit of the company and often to the long term detriment of us, then it is bad, for us!
FOR BOTH: I think either of these cards could been printed in a different product that wasn't targeted at commander players specifically - such as Modern Morizons, Battlebond...etc. Vintage, Legacy, and Cedh players are our MTG brethren and need to be shown some love as well on occasion. That said in terms of commander: OPPOSITION AGENT - I'm fine that the card is black. Other colors needing help shouldn't automatically mean that the remaining can't have stuff until they do. However, I'm not opposed to the idea that it was a missed opportunity to give this to white specifically, since there is a precedent for it. That said, this card should: 1) Be 4 CMC 2) Be double black 3) Say "may" on it 4) Be a 1/1 JEWELED LOTUS - Once we move past the point that nobody asked for this card (and that it doesn't help the format in any way) to fix it WOTC could: 1) Have it cost 1 CMC 2) Have it come in tapped 3) Have it cost 1 to activate so it's more of a filter and less of an explosion
Why would Jeweled lotus be printed in a set that wasn't focused on commander? More importantly, how would that solve any issue? More more importantly, wouldn't that just hurt Commander Classic just as much as it hurts Commander?
In my opinion, Opposition Agent is just in the same neighborhood as cards like Agent of Treachery. Anything that takes cards or agency from other players is not something I like to see. Jeweled Lotus just feels unnecessary. I'm not even mad at it. I 100% agree that Opposition Agent should have been white, even if I'd rather it not exist. At least not as printed.
But Agent of Treachery is atleast 7 mana, thats a huge difference. It maybe hits turn 5 or 6 but not turn 2 or 3. Also Agent of Treachery isnt that good outside of specific decks (roone, yarok etc.)
What makes it a white effect? Casting/taking other people's stuff is typically Blue/Black. I agree that White needs the power, but it doesn't seem on theme.
I feel like they could have very easily not made this as bad if they made it so it was an enter the battlefield effect and not a constant dark aura infecting the table. At least then you save it for a an important time instead of possibly preventing people from searching for lands. Sure since its in black you could certainly repeat it from the graveyard but at least then you would know it was coming. I agree too, it SO should have been a white card.
@@Neonapfel9 Read the next part of my post. It's not the mana cost, but the _effect_ that puts them in the same realm for me. Taking cards from other players doesn't sit well, nor taking away their agency, as I stated before. In casual games, I don't like these; or mill, or discard effects. It's not what I consider fun. Y'all can do whatever you want in your groups, of course.
Thank you for being GENUINE! Exactly mythoughts on this card. If they print one more of these types its gonna drive me out of commander. Ive played every format for years and wound up at commander as my mainstay. Please dont vintage, modern, cedh my commander game
What about having the cedh guys have their own ban list? as well as the "casual" list. its already a diverse format w disclaimbers pre games and power lvls, i mean isnt it judging each others decks by power lvl another way of meassuring what a good game for everyone at the table would enjoy? and what is the ban list for
That wouldn’t change anything as the ban list is already based around casual edh. The rules committee rarely ban things based on cedh. Your better off just having a discussion with your playgroup.
I play a pretty bonkers sisay and i dont think the lotus will get a spot in the deck. Chulane will love it though and i think Anje will get some for it's ceiling potential.
I am Sisay player and I approve that. You can first drop 1-2 two-colored legendaries and then drop Sisay later if you have Lotus. And then you are ready to win in that turn cycle. That creates pseudo protection effect on your Sisay because you have WURBG mana online.
I have a big issue with Op Agent. It should be a white card given the history of Aven Mind Censor and Flash in general. If all Opposition Agent did was stop tutoring it would be pushed. The fact that it is also a Praetor's Grasp with a Flash 3/2 body and also stops tutoring is silly. That it creates a easy combo win with a 3cmc commander is also ridiculous... Either no considered thought was given to design here or it is a money grab. Those are the two options in my opinion
About the lotus ,CEDH is fine with that, people agree to play the most powerfull things they can and win as fast as possible, There is already turn 2/3 wins there, the problem is this can break causal play, imagine this in a table with a power lvl of 5 or 6, it just wins
Just theoretically thinking: Would you play cards like: "instant {W}: you win the game". Probably yes, since it would be one of the most powerful cards and wins you the game as fast as possible. According to your argumentation. Would this card be healty to cEDH in terms of how much you enjoy the game? I don't know, but i can't imagine, that there is a limit to the power of cards, when the games become unfun, even you want to win as fast as possible.
I'm glad of these cards for one reason: it shows you what's broken, i.e. Tutors, Fetchlands, Too Powerful Commanders, Fast Mana. These effects put one player so far ahead that synergy doesn't matter. These are the effects that make the game pay to win.
I don't know why so many people hate it. Personally, I hate tutoring a whole lot more than I hate being able to stop it. That being said, I am just a mono-white / boros player after all.
Tutors are a necessary evil in a singleton format. Yes the slow down gameplay with shuffling. But besides just drawing a bunch of cards its how you can make a deck at least semi consistent. Now do we all need to go the Cedh rout and have all our decks run a dozen tutors. Probably not. But it attacks decks in a way that slows down the game and if if just had that first line of text would be a good political card. But because you can never be someone's friend with it it just feels bad.
@@TheSmartCinema I just dont like the fact it punishes any fetch lands, like i run a lot of evolving wilds and the slow fetches. That and the fact it is not a "may" ability just makes it an unfunded card to me
I’m totally fine with it too. This kind of can level a playing field hosing someone with a 1000$ deck for example. No. You’re not gonna get your win con and now your 8 fetch lands are dead draws.
Of the two, opposition agent is the more likely to catch a ban. It leads to really bad play patterns, but the RC doesn't usually ban a lot for that anymore.
I was pretty "mhe" on the lotus, but then I realized that it will be mediocre on an average basis and near game winning in strategies that already are excellent and don't need the help. So, yeah, mistake
The cliff analogy is a very good one. It's something I've been afraid of for a while now, especially since Fire was introduced. And not only for commander. There are simply points of no return.
I think people are overestimating how bad jeweled lotus is after turn 1. 1) there's a ton of value to be stolen on a later turn when you're able to drop your commander and free up 3 on board mana to drop combo pieces all at once. 2) Commander tax is a thing and I think commander re-casts are uncommon not because it's bad to re-cast but because it's hard to ramp, get removed, ramp more, all while responding to the board. Even omnath might run this, just because if you have to re-cast it frees up so much space for you to still be getting combo pieces or board answers down, and also saves you from having to play your land for turn before you re-cast him. Like I don't think it's OP but I do think if your commander costs mana or if the commander tax rule exists then you go ahead and run this if you have it.
I really like opposition agent. I see black as the “screw with your opponents” color, and this card inspired me to make a deck. As for Jeweled lotus. There’s plenty of decks where it’s too powerful, but there’s plenty of commanders it doesn’t help with, or it doesn’t help enough with. And it’s hardly going to show up in the first couple turns where it will supposedly have the biggest impact on the game.
I believe that Skat players often use a checklist to set the table rules at the start; a quick list of cards with y/n/maybe answers seems possible. I agree with your shared views on both cards - white would indeed have been an excellent home for tutor-hate, and even for a jeweled lotus kind of card just for white (giving white commanders an edge getting out early).
On the question of banning Jeweled Lotus: since powerlevel isn´t the only factor for banning cards (Iona comes to mind) I think JL is very ban-able. My first reaction was also about the variance and unfun games this card creates. I feel a banlist is there to make a game enjoyable, not to keep its general powerlevel in check. Now obviously only time will tell, wether JL has that effect on the broader commander community, but it sure seems like it has the potential.
I think the worst part of opposition agent is flash and colour identity. Outside of stalling tutored win conditions, what this card affects most is land ramp. Land ramp is something that's really hard to interact with and is so powerful because there are so many ways to repeatably draw lands from within your deck. This stops this till they get removal
The sad part of all these problematic cards and products coming out lately is that just fractures the community meanwhile Wotc/Hasbro keep growing their pockets
Well articulated on a great many points. In particular, I like the talk about power creep in Commander; its a very important point and having the largest Commander content creators articulate it so well is a huge benefit.
It's not stronger. It's easier to deal with than the white tax card. And overall less effective. That said I love it and there should be more effects like it. Also busted in wheel decks. But what isnt. And is removable.
@@jeffnorris211 agreed. Locking out searches will more than likely always be more relevant. But on the rare chance my niv mizzet untaps with this and a wheel I've pretty much won.
@@Goodthrust69 compared to smothering tithe, tithe counts every draw and is an enchantment. That’s the upside. The downside is it cost 1 more mana, they can pay for the tax and it doesn’t prevent your opponents from drawing cards! The big difference that pushes the pirate so hard is that it is like tithe and narset combined! Replacing the opponents draw with ramp for you is nuts!
This was an excellent discussion of both these cards. It literally addressed all of my concerns as a player about what WoTC design like this does to the format. They need to STOP printing all this fast, free mana.
The only part of Agent I have a problem with is spending mana of any color. There should be limitations and this card has none. I should be limited by colors to cast what I get from Agent. Also, there’s way too many cards that let you spend of mana as though it were mana of any color. That phrase needs to go away.
Actually, I think it is a card that makes tier 2 cEDH fringe lists sit closer to tier one. So basically it makes anything at an 8-9 show the potential to be a 9-10 in power level. It is not good enough to slot in most tier 1 cEDH decks because usually their commanders are either multiple colors or they have such a low mana cost that the Lotus wastes mana putting them into play. It will inevitably become a casual staple if you want to keep up with literally anyone else in the game that has one in their list.
In addition to what was said in the video, I believe it his is a very powerful tool piece for artifact recycling decks. Because it can be sacrificed in response to removal. Most non counter spell themed decks are going to have a hard time dealing with that. I also think it is better in multi colored decks than I initially thought because it can get you whatever color you are missing to play your commander. Ritual effects usually aren’t that great in commander unless recursively built around. 0 CMC also provides some tutor options which will make it easier to find/play in people may realize. I also prefer strategies that draw more cards vs tutors because it keeps games from the same deck feeling different from game to game. I will say, however that I’m glad when many commander games finally end, which takes quite a bit longer in precon decks.
I don't know. For me, Jeweled Lotus is the weaker of the two cards discussed in episode. Jeweled Lotus in your starting hand will get you ahead but it's like playing a Sol Ring on turn 1. Players will target you if you cast your commander on turn 1. You will be the enemy to target. It's also a dead draw on turn 8, since it can be only used to cast they commander. Sol Ring is typically good on most turns. Opposition Agent is the more egregious of the two, since your controlling tutors and stealing the cards they tutor for. I am primarily a green player and play a lot of land tutors, so this card messes with me a lot. I don't want the jerk playing opposition agent to steal my lands. Now i'm gonna have to hold open Path to Exile now every time I try to tutor.
Agreed, I would very much prefer O.Agent to be banned over lotus.. Knowing my playgroup and our powerlevel, each deck with black will abuse that shit.. Probably looking at our first house-ruled ban..!
The problem with Lotus instead of sol ring isnt that it is more powerful, but that it makes games more one sided. Either u get a huge advantage of Lotus (bigger spike that sol ring) and nobody has an answer = you win or they have an answer and nothing else happens. The card doesnt make the game more fun or interactive. (Also its less accesable than sol ring which sucks too.)
I generally don't like Opposition Agent, but their solution of having it cost 1WWW is fairly brilliant if the card has to exist. Green as a color on it's own is pretty overtuned in Commander, and Opposition Agent is clearly going to mess with ramp the most. Sure it won't be as splashy as stealing a Vampiric Tutor or something similar, but it's going to hit Green ramp spells more than anything. Would be a step in the right direction to bring both White and Green in line with the rest of the colors if it worked this way.
Sol Ring (who should also be banned) doesn't give you access to colored mana, and it only ramps you 1 colorless mana at turn-1, since you're using one mana to cast it. Basically, Sol ring is a decision to have a 'worst' first turn so you can have a better second, while with lotus you get that good turn right away. And yeah, dropping a turn-1 commander can win you the game depending on what you're playing, as the play-tester said himself. You should also notice that you can have both Sol ring and lotus, which makes you more consistently play your commanders early. And about your 'politics' argument, that's just a meme. By the time your opponents can do anything to stop you, you already advanced the game more than they did. This is the famous Serra's Ascendant argument: 3 opponents can deal with Serra's ascendant at turn-1, but by the time they do, you already gained some life, reduced their life totals, and gained a 1 mana 6/6 flying lifelink in your graveyard (with possible recurssion), while they lost 1-2 removal spells on it; perhaps even losing their turn to take it down. Good cards win games, and if one card forces 3 players on the defensive, you're more likely to win, not less. If you're playing white and not playing Serra's Ascendant in your deck, you're playing Commander wrong.
If Opposition Agent JUST prevented searching, then yeah I can see it being in red/white. I think Jeweled Lotus will see a lot of play initially, but will eventually fade out when people get the feel bads of drawing it but having no use for it.
@@leojas You can't do that unless they have Panglacial Wurm. While you are resolving the tutor ability, you can't activate any other abilities, including mana abilities. You can look at their hand, though.
@@GunbladeKnight no, you CAN tap a land for mana whatever you can do, there is not a response to or triggered by don go to the pile. You are controlling the turn you can do it in that moment
Josh talked about how he didn't see any situation where Jeweled Lotus was fun and added something to the format, but here's one that I can think of: I think it's fine, and fun, if you use it on turn 4 or 5 to power out your Chorus of the Conclave, or your Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund, or your Garza Zol, Plague Queen. Huge, splashy, but impractical commanders that you just don't see anymore because they're too expensive, the lotus will let you get them onto the field at least once. That's why my fix for the lotus would be to only have it work to cast a commander with a CMC of 6 or greater
agent - antifun (taking away player agency should be rare, this thing is just... ugh) lotus - WAY overhyped (I don't like either of them, but whatever)
Well said overall. I must say though, i do think jewelles lotus is in here simply to sell packs even with wizards and the people who designed this product knowing full well its bad for the format.
Nah, they're absolutely fine. Tutors are strong cards and deserve strong answers, and the Jewel is not nearly as strong as other commander legal cards, such as Mana Crypt, Gaea's Cradle, and perhaps even Sol Ring
The problem with Opposition Agent is that its existence changes game decisions, but ultimately does not warp the format that much. People are still going to have tutors and fetches in their deck, they might just have to play around it. You can think of it more like a hate bear, or as mentioned, an upgraded Aven Mindcensor level effect, so I think it remains to be seen how much the Agent will affect the format. The problem with Jeweled Lotus on the other hand is that it _does_ warp the format. As mentioned, every low cost mana rock makes it more reliable to lean into high-powered commanders, pushing us closer to that cliff. It isn't interactive, Opposition Agent can be killed by any number of cards, Jeweled Lotus only is impacted by counterspells and things like Stony Silence, so it's much more reliable. It's the same reason that printing more free counterspells drags the format down by their existence, but whereas counterspells can only protect your combo pieces, Jeweled Lotus makes the combos much faster. And ultimately, as Josh said, what is the upside of this card? What does it give to the format? I don't think it gives anything positive. I think that it is very much a design mistake, and I personally suspect it was pressured in order to drive sales, which is completely unnecessary, this set is the most hyped I've seen my playgroup ever. Please, Wizards, stop going down this road. Nobody was asking for Black Lotus to be legal in commander, and I don't think it even would have occurred to anyone that you would print one that's even half as powerful. The format is tenuous, the game's future is uncertain. Step back from the ledge.
Commander was sweet before WoTC really noticed it. It was like a fun place to play cards that just had no other home.
2020 was 2020 for the Commander format too.
@@TheMarsCydonia And shit like this happened
You see, I actively agree with this notion. High tier edh play was sweet, playing cards only legal in vintage (and commander) was sweet. Now its, hey neat. Thanks for this clearly marketed for me card. I'll try really hard not to break it accidentally 🙃
IKR WTH are they doing to their game? Let US determine the META. Stop making FOR-COMMANDER OVERPOWERED necessities that are making it a "must run" in decks and causing a rift in the player base.
I really do miss old commander. Now, at my lgs gotta make the most cancer I can. While I enjoy playing with my friends as well. It has sadly been much more a race to the bottom as well as a battle of the wallets moreso than the game that got me back into magic.
We actually started playing modern commander to allow for more refreshing gameplay. Not allowing anything before 8th edition. Though things like commander legends are fine, though a card printed in let's say, 5th edition and reprinted in some random set would be banned and only allowed if it enters the standard rotation. We still have op agent and jeweled lotus but things like demonic consultation are at least something you see every game. We still play cEDH games but I miss the days when the format was a fun new and unsolved frontier. Zur is the only old commander I can remember who is still top tier but literally everyone else has either been forgotten or sacked. As Thrasios and Tymna literally erased them from the competitive format.
I'm running food chain sliver just to have some diversity. I think most people at my shop run T&T just because its so good. I understand that not all shops will play like this. Though, with the format only getting faster. It has made sure to abandon previous decks which used to be played.
Rest in piece, Boonweaver Karador you shall be missed.
I think it's a little unseatling how adamant Josh was about lotus being a bad idea and they still went with it :/
It was clearly someone's pet card at WotC lol
Unsettling but I can't say it's a surprise. Glad to hear about his experience nonetheless
it was a sure way to get people to buy alllll the product. I'm not saying "greedy profit motive only" for Gavin and his design team, but if you think they are not thinking about the chase cards making their design profitable while they design cards for the format, then you are giving them too much credit.
I could hire a 18y/o and have him/her come up with "commander black lotus" or "mono green Kodama partner that combos with almost all other magic cards" and they would make them easily... but the team doesn't seem talented enough to fix 'Commander specific' power gaps such as designing opposition agent in white instead of black, or hullbreacher in white instead of blue. And if JLK is telling the truth about testing these cards with designers, it's obvious that their claims of 'help white/red, don't make green/black/blue stronger" are going in one ear and out the other.
@@tomragnarok6538 agree 100%. Worth noting that Hasbro gave Wizards 5 years to double their profits, so the idea that JLK alluded to in this episode, that Wizards employees don't care about the money, is kind of irrelevant. Like, yeah, maybe Gavin agrees with Josh that this card shouldn't be printed, but when the higher ups ask if this card will make more money do you think Gavin is gonna lie?
@@exprime8872 i agree, I don't think gavin or the Playtest team is the Probleme, but the company behind, who pushes Powerlevel to sell packs etc...
JLK: Please Wotc, don't print this card
Wotc: Printers go Brrrr
JLK was correct in his assessment that there is no accompanying upside at all. Should be banned imo.
WOTC: Brrrrrrr...
WOTC: ok bro i got all your emails and you're never gonna believe what happened...
Nice. Without needing too much persuasion & reason, I’m happy fer almos any reaction that slaps Hasbro/WotC in the face & kick em in their nutz. A very early ban on Lotus, definitely would.
@@pvtpain66k can i modify my comment with your suggestion? It's kinda funnier 😂
You know it is serious business when it is no singing in the intro.
* stonks meme*
Kards!
@Omari Juelz this is some lazy as marketing
With a disclaimer like that, you can feel how abused these guys have been recently.
Rule #783 - it's not your fault.
Two things you don't seem to be focused on with Opposition Agent: Another person is pawing at your property & tutoring can be stupid slow depending on who does it, have someone tutor another person's library and now you're watching that person read 100 pieces of paper for 25 minutes.
This. Looking at an opponents library for a long time is no joy for any player. Unbelievable that this card survived playtesting
I'm also not a fan of static mindslaver effects. You don't just lose the tutor. The controller can tap out all your mana too which feels really rough
@@benmccarthy6702 It never says you may use your opponents lands, just that the mana (you produce) to cast their card can be of any colour..
@@MaTrIXBaws i don't mean to cast the card, i mean you can just time walk them. T7, they play evolving wilds, crack it. you flash in Opposition Agent, tap all their lands. At best, they have to use that mana this phase, at worst it is just rinsed off. I'm also assuming you can't play instants while you search? otherwise this is total grief on a stick
@@benmccarthy6702 you don’t receive priority or pay for any costs. You can see their hand, facedown cards and all that, but you can’t tap mana because you don’t have the opportunity to do that
The ultimate nerf: "Make it 1WWW"
“Add 3W”
White is in a state where even that much power may not be enough in mid-late game.
@@Cyberium I mean, if we really think about it... your opponent tutors or casts bribery and you use Opposition Agent, you just gave mono white access to, and this is on a varying scale:
Omniscience
Jin Gitaxias
Progenitus
Etali, Primal Storm
Zendikar Resurgent
Expropriate
and with those few examples, makes mono white pretty busted. Now the question comes down to, can mono-white even ramp to those big spells, and with all of this artifact mana, and the ability to spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast those cards, I see this being a snap keep in a mono white deck.
@@Bggujh you say that would make white busted, but now black has access to these cards, and black was already a super strong color in commander.
@@1235q this is in the theoretical realm of the card being in white, a casting cost of 1WWW for example
When I saw Opposition Agent for the first time, I didn't realize it was a permanent effect on a creature. I thought it was a "when it ETB you do that" so I thought you stole a single tutor from a player, and that it was pretty damn good already for just 3 mana like that. Then I realized it stayed on the field and just messed with everything and everyone.
Well i like my commander games long instead of having 6 turns defeat because same combo all the times
Man I thought I was the only one hahahaha , I thought , woow it steals 1 tutor , great card , idk y ppl are discussing about this card, and then .. hey ... this is a permanent effect .... mind blowing in 3...2...1... LOL
The card does way too much for three mana. It's like they designed it from the wrong end, like instead of asking: what does it need to do to be good enough to be playable and do the job it is supposed to, meaning, fucking with tutors, they asked: what can we get away with?
3 mana instant speed deny tutoring on a body would already have been decent. Slap Deathtouch on it and you got yourself a nice situational card. But did they stop there? No, you also get to look through your opponent's entire deck, and figure out their game plan. But it doesn't stop there either. You also get to steal pieces from their deck, and to add insult to injury, you get to play those pieces yourself, and of course you don't need to fix your colors for that, which would have been an option, since "any color" on things like Darksteel Ingot isn't restricted to your deck's color identity. And that still isn't the end of it. Instead of making it an ETB, it's a static effect. In a color that has easy graveyard access.
That card is just wrong.
@@Volkbrecht lmao umad casual scrub?
if it only stole 1 tutor it would still be good enough
This was an excellent episode. There were a couple moments that really stood out to me. Josh's behind the scenes input was very interesting. From what Gavin has said he doesn't seem to think the Lotus is good enough to be a problem but clearly some people in the design stage saw it. It looks like there needs to be more weight given to the feedback process. If the testers were like, "This card is just all downside as a play pattern," then it should have gotten a rework. I also liked the few moments they spent talking about other formats. As someone who spends more time with eternal formats than commander it was good that have that. Thanks guys for taking some time to address problematic cards.
Wait, Opposition Agent stops Wayfarer's Bauble.
Mitch: [Complains about Walking Dead horseshit]
WotC: "So, you have chosen death."
BUT THEY TOO POWERFUL DUDE
Bauble is overrated and it's basically become a meme at this point thanks to all the 'Mitching' about it. Don't get me wrong, it's still a good ramp card. But, it's NOWHERE near as good as everyone seems to believe.
Mitch has abandoned Wayfarer's Bauble since its above $4 now xD
@@vahnthemannraseru1810 Try to be clam a civil just like Josh and Jimmy suggested you should be. You have used profanity against another person, made undocumented claims (what Mitch uses his private money also doesn't seem to be important). If Commander Quarters is not for you and you want to spend more money on cards, then by all means do so. However, it doesn't mean Commander Quarts isn't a useful channel for those how want to make cheap commander decks.
@@Tupiaz To add to that even if you're not on a budget, you can still find some good combos, like, the fact that Mirror Entity isn't a 40 dollar card doesn't stop it from being baller in a Rin and Seri deck.
Powercreep is really starting to hit commander. Kinda sad to watch :(
@James Black i mean like really go rampant
It was always going to happen. It's just ramping up now that wotc set it's eyes on the format :/
there has never been a time when commander wasn't a broken format. commander is getting more popular the more people that play the format the more efficient the format will become. people will "solve" the format. even if people separate them selves from cedh. a top end of casual commander will still develop below cedh.
I'm actually really excited about all the cool new toys they've been giving us! I'd rather have cards printed that are strong enough to push out old ones than have nothing to get excited about. Staleness sounds boring, I don't really get that mindset.
Opposition agent punish that power creep honestly will be sweet to punish those jerks that use more han 4 tutors in each game
Off-topic, but I thought it was cool to hear that y’all were play-testing this two years ago. Will y’all do a similar video for the cards and interactions you found in play-testing that really got you excited for the set?
Not they all did it - just Josh. Jimmy wasn't part of that.
I'm surprised neither of you mentioned how the Lotus doesn't get exiled. THAT by far was my biggest concern with the card.
It wouldn't be balanced even if it did say that, which just goes to show how bad of a design it is.
I really, _really_ wonder why they made Opposition Agent's effect a static effect. That seems to be the main problem to me (from a gameplay perspective), more so than the perhaps awkward coloring or the casting cost.
Consider a version of it with the following text:
Flash, haste
{T}: Until end of turn, the next time an opponent would search a library, you search that library instead. Exile each card you find. You may play those cards for as long as they remain exiled, and you may spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast them.
This wouldn't be particularly bad. It doesn't need to sacrifice itself (the table will probably take care of that for you) and it won't stop everyone from playing (since it's probably going to be tapped immediately when you play it, giving other players a one-turn window to adapt). Some decks can obviously mess with untapping it for greater effect, or sacrificing it and recurring it. It would overall be quite balanced in my opinion, and not a problematic card at all - quite fun, in fact.
Power Creep, plain and simple. Your idea makes it a fair card, that works sometimes when you really want it to. It challenges the player to find the right moment to use it, and gives others a chance to avoid its punishment. But forget all that crap, just all upside, all the time.
See Oko, Uro, Questing Beast, insane Commanders, etc etc.
Ok, Gavin designed the card, he thought "this could be cool in commander", its fine, no complains. Then Josh tests it and advises not to print it, good call. Then Wotc does it anyway.... the only honest and reasonable explaination here is that Wotc did it anyway because...money. So when you say "people working for MTG are good people", ok, again, fine, they are just doing their jobs. But you cant deny THE ONE ulterior motive that drives Wotc: maiking more money. And that needs to be said.
I mean yeah. They are a business. Making money isn't an ulterior motive. Its the primary one and always has been.
I think most of the misdeeds come from Hasbro not WotC, or are twisted.
Of the, admittedly few, people I've met from WotC they were all really cool.
And yeah, designers probably just make things that are fun, or interesting, then it goes for balancing. We aren't mad at the designers... they aren't the ones who have the last say in corporate mis/handling.
But it’s making short turn game at the cost of destroying the format in the long run... eventually this will lead to less people wanting to play and eventually a shift to other games
@@yoyepo91 Unfortunately there's not really anywhere else for people to go if they are looking to get away from fast, powerful cards creating fast, powerful metas. Magic and in particular commander is like the last hold out for that sort of more casual, varied playstyle.
@@TB317 and its being destroyed for profit because the fans refuse to demand op old cards be banned. opposition agent for example is a counter to cheap tutors like demonic tutor that simply shouldn't exist. Its sad to see the power levels continually rise instead. in 5 years I wonder if even casual commander decks will be winning by turn 6
In k'rrik, having him or t1 is worth mulling to 5 or 4
Absolutely. I’m debating turning my Yawgmoth deck into a K’rrik deck since I have K’rrik in the 99 anyway
This is why you should run a better mulligan.
9-4-2
Draw 9, 'scry' 4 away, draw 2.
No shuffling, no redraws.
(If you can show 0 lands in opening 9 and people trust your deckbuilding, then you can reshuffle + redraw).
@@suikodin2501 honestly im gonna try that sounds like a real time saver
@@n3wm3r1c5 I haven't met anyone that disliked it after trying it. :) Let me know if you run into any problems or make any tweaks to it for your playgroup.
Back when there was any contention about mulligans, we also let lowest roll (when rolling for first) pick the mulligan.
Neither is broken but the they definitely don't need to print cards on jeweled lotuses power level. The jeweled lotus just works to homogenize the format. It may not be broken but if someone pulls or buys one their playing it whenever possible. We really just don't need more 0 Mana ramp artifacts that are 100's of dollars.
Yea I totally agree. I just think it doesn't help the format, at all. If someone draws Jeweled Lotus on turn one or two, it will give them a massive advantage. If they draw it any later, it's pretty meh, if not a dead draw. So really it never does anything good for a game. I think Opposition Agent is totally fine, powerful maybe but not busted at all.
To be fair, not everyone dislikes 0 mana artifacts. I love them, and I play them in specifically two (sometimes three) out of my 7 commander decks - the cEDH ones. I'm super hyped for jewled lotus because now I get to know what it feels like to play black lotus. BIG NOTE: I won't be playing this in any of my casual decks - I don't think it's designed for casual commander play, and I don't think every card made for commander should be designed specifically for casual commander: casual commander is NOT 100% of the player base. It is the majority, and the majority of cards should be, and are, designed for casual commander. I will add: I think they probably could've done a better job about putting a restriction on this card that would've made it appear less in casual games due to a lower power level, but I do still think it's restrictive enough to not see that much play in casual games along side it's mythic rare price point.
If someone is playing a pre-con level deck and they pull and run this card, that's fine. But as soon as you get even slightly into the constructed level of commander, this card shouldn't be played unless you're nearing cEDH level stuff, or you're using this card in an Ayula bear tribal deck (or the like). If jeweled lotus is played against me when I'm using my Syr Gwyn voltron deck (with none of the swords in it to regulate power level) I'm going to be upset, at the PLAYER, not the card (unless of course they bring out Ayula, or the like). Every time I sit down at the table I ask for power levels and pull out the deck that matches what other people are playing. Syr Gwyn is my weakest deck, so I pull that out to play with pre-con or slightly above pre-con level decks. I won't be expecting to play against mana crypt or jewled lotus while at those tables. Sol ring is fine because it's the face of the format, and I along with many others, got drawn to the format because we get to play ridiculous cards like sol ring.
I want a couple more cards like this (like Josh said, the more of these there are the closer the format gets to becoming completely power creeped), and I like that jeweled lotus has drawbacks and restrictions to make it so that it's not played in every deck like sol ring or mana crypt is (I personally don't even think this card is going to see as much play as josh though when he evaluated the top 21 commanders. Akiri, for example, definitely shouldn't run jeweled lotus). If they do make more cards like this, I want them to be closer to chrome mox/mox diamond, where you get ramp at the cost of card advantage. Cards like that are FAR less likely to be seen at casual tables, simply because they aren't as good in decks that don't have consistent ways to regain that advantage back by using that mana. Mox amber, for example, is a great power level for fast mana. Mox tantelite was underwhelming, and probably should've just been suspend 2.
Regardless, the community is definitely overreacting. I agree that more cards like this should become a problem, but I don't expect them to be making a SECOND black lotus "reprint", at least not in my lifetime lol. I do expect another mox soon, since it's been quite a while and the last one was in modern horizons, which was over a year ago now. I just hope the community doesn't overreact to that as well.
@@StretchyPlays So it's a worst sol ring is what you're saying. Jeweled lotus, though strong, is not as crazy as people like to claim. As you said, in the early game it's powerful, but after your commander is out, it does nothing for you. Turn one Sol ring will give you more mana and more value over the course of the game then the lotus will. It loses even more value.
There are also answers to it in the form of stuff like Mental Misstep. So it's not like it's a sure shot anyways.
Its price isnt going to hold id be willing to bet it settles around the 20-30 range
it also just leads to unfun play patterns.
Yeah, "Sacrefice, ignore the Commanders Deathcounters this Turn" would be an way fairer card.
What are deathcounters? You mean "commander tax"?
@@michaellui5108 yeah, Commander cast for original costs reguardless how often he died.
Sooo, command beacon non land version?
Just wanted to say that it means a lot to me that u guys have kept me updated through the years. U DA BEST
I don’t like when people attack people at wizards personally. But saying that they don’t print things just to make money is just wrong. It’s also important to realize that even if they are printing cards to make money it’s not the people designing cards or the sets fault it’s the Company that is telling them that this product whatever it might be has to sell.
Yeah. They don't blindly design 300 cards, then let Joe down in the mail room slap the rarities on them. They know they're producing cards that will sell, and create supply shortfalls for those cards. Might as well be Konami.
Commander players: DON'T MESS WITH MY LANDS
Also Commander players: Why is green so powerful?
This all day. Because players shun mass land destruction, green has almost no weaknesses. If you say creature board wipes, then you don't understand green as well as you think. Green has way too many things it can do and almost no counterplay. There is a reason why green is the top used mono color as well as the most common color used as a support color. I think the only exception is black because it tutors. Oddly enough green can do this really well. Mainly because the tutors are typically to go find creatures and green has a creature for just about every effect in the game that is relevant. Green also doesn't care about casting costs cause it can ramp 3 times faster than average. It also can draw cards, only surpassed by blue..barely. it can gain life. Has some of the biggest creatures in the game. It has ramp ( did I say that already? Well that is how rediculously powerful it is), it can destroy just about any permanent. It can counter it's enemy colors better than its enemies can counter them outside Acid Rain (refer to mass of comment earlier). It can recur and recycle cards from the graveyard. The only thing green can't do is counter spells (unless you count Life force),
@@architectofdreams73 The problem is that mass land wipes like Armageddon don't *just* hit the green player (and the green player will recover from that faster than the rest of the table), and targeted land destruction won't keep up with their ramp unless you're literally just sitting on them the whole game, which isn't really fun for either player. But besides that, it isn't just that green has the best ramp that's problematic, it's also like you said about how it's also not really *bad* at anything.
i love how white still got shafted in the end even though they had said they would be giving white some more support this set
They did get some pretty good cards. Keeper of the Accord is a pretty damn decent card. Akroma's Will can and will have good impact and is versatile. They probably could have given them a juicy reprint like Enlightened Tutor if they could bring back vamp tutor, but overall those 2 cards are going to be decent additions. If your hope was for them to suddenly give white cEDH material cards it's going to be a lot harder than you think with what whites color identity is to bring it even remotely close to the big colors in cEDH, but it got some good battle cruiser magic stuff.
There's like 2 white cards I really like. All but 1 of the white partners aren't viable. Felidar retreat style effects that give heaps of value would've been very welcome
They needed to give white anti-ramp and anti tutoring too keep with the theme and to keep up to date
@@braddorcas9363 Whits color identity is basically Wizards wish it disnt exist. Opposition Agent is whites identity, and given to black. Meanwhile white got a mythic rare equipment that is terrible.
@@GodwynDi Oh agreed the agent should be whites based on the color pie. I just don't think it actually helps them like people want where they already have plenty of affects that do similar things, so it's not like they need it to survive and the fact that it wasn't given to them here is whats causing whites problems. White needs something else to stand on it's own. White is a great support color but thats about it, and giving it opposition agent wouldn't have broken that mold at all. Just my opinion though. I don't think it'll ever be cEDH power level strong, they'd have to push way to many cards in a short time period to catch it up. But they definitely need to help it out in the 7-8 power level battle cruiser style of magic.
I believe that Gavin designs cards with a good intent.
I also believe that Hasbro puts pressure on designers to make cards that sell packs regardless of the impact they have on the game long term.
These are not mutually exclusive.
Let me guess before even watching:
"these are stupid but commander is self regulating so it's fine"
Edit: Aight, I thought this was gonna be a lot of apologia for the design but I was wrong. You guys hit the nail on the head, thank you!
Kudos to you for admitting you were wrong! If more members of the community were willing to do that, I feel like we'd be doing a lot better.
When I started playing commander, people just take all the cards that they didn't use and made a deck, it was very experimental. The format now have so many staples that the decks looks very similar. My problem with those 2 cards are not they effect, but how you both said, its costs and color. A 0 mana ramp artifact, a 3 mana black card who manipulates tutor on the color who tutors it, I think that exist space for a more elegant design.
Remember when insurrection was like 50 cents for a couple decades and considered not all that great?
Anything, absolutely anything, that was once grassroots and then started getting corporate backing has always gone to shit
I think opposition agent is far more agregious than jeweled lotus. It’s black. It shouldn’t be. Ramp turned off. Jeweled lotus is overrated, I think people see that the card is ridiculous and the social contract will correct for it. It’ll be a problem In Cedh though.
Yea, Jeweled lotus if it works, will turn a game into Arch Enemy until that player is dead or another enemy actually pops off.
im suprised that they are not talking about hullbreacher here too. these two hatebears seem really strong
@@AccelusDominus hullbreacher should also be a different color. Preferably white. But that being said, there is a precedent for that kind of effect in blue. Notion thief is a perfectly fine blue(and black) card that establishes a space for blue to be tricky and mean in that way. I just wish it didn’t ramp. It makes flavor sense for it to make treasure though. I think that card is fine. Not ideal but not something to worry too much about.
I mean I don't really believe that it's overrated when experienced people who playtested it far in advance said it shouldn't have been printed.
@@elijahdavila3684 it’s overrated in the sense that the player base in general is making a significant hullabaloo over it. And I think people are over rating how much it’ll actually be used.
"Players can't lose while Jeweled Lotus is in a Graveyard"
That's still abusable since you can keep yourself from losing if you're the one that cracks the Lotus. Instead it would be more detrimental like this:
"As long as Jeweled Lotus is in your graveyard, your opponents can't lose the game."
@Servbot 40 So let's just ban all those cards then. Easy enough.
Another problem is that Commander is a "casual" format that is at this point so ubiquitous with Magic that it can't really afford to be so laissez-faire with its rules and banlist anymore.
@@abderianagelast7868 agreed. Fast mana has caused a nearly irreparable issue with the "casual" side of the format since its inception. WotC only managed to make it seem accessible by reprinting Sol Ring into every commander set ever made and then when they released Arcane Signet they repeated the process (and I wouldn't even consider that "fast" mana, it's just an efficient rock).
These two cards can create big and extremely uneven advantage early in games, but maybe the more serious problem is that they are just too easy. The thing that makes EDH fun is that most decks can't be perfectly tuned. Magic cards, and the game itself, have generally been designed so that cards and plays that create such big effects also pose big potential drawbacks. Players use their cunning to navigate situations with clever opponents and lots of interactions that can derail a deck strategy. But there is no downside to playing either of these two cards. They give players who use them big advantage without any consequences. They are "glue cards" that smooth out decks for faster, easier wins.
Wait, Hullbreacher is not a design mistake? Taking something that white was the only color doing and doing it 1000x better?
Also, Opposition Agent just feels like a better version of Aven Mindcensor and somewhat Leonin Arbiter. I personally like the sultai colors, but to just simply make blue and black have better versions of what should be in white's wheelhouse is disappointing. I felt kinda the same way when they gave black efficient enchantment removal, not necessarily that black got it, just that black now may eventually take that away from white when white should be able to do it better.
Since when was white the only color doing it Limiting the amount of cards people ca is to draw?! Narset and Leovold exist u know
@@akselhansen304 honestly, it's partly just that white is screwed over regularly
@@leviangel97 also, in an episode of dies to removal, the professor talked about how he saw Mark Rosewater at an airport, and Mark just ranted to him about how much of a mistake white getting path to exile was, since it is not part of white's slice of the pie to get unconditional removal, and also how much he hates commander. I feel like this whole thing may have something to do with Mark, but I definitely could be wrong.
Two hot takes:
1 - Opposition Agent would be less problematic if it said “exile each NONLAND card they find.” It might be a little more confusing and you could still make people fail to find lands, but you wouldn’t be forced to. You could choose to leave the lands alone, or it could even be a political tool. “Ok, I’ll let you Skyshroud Claim normally, but you owe me one.”
2 - I don’t play Sisay, but I think Sisay would play Lotus. Ramping on Turn 3 to play her on Turn 4 and immediately activate seems strong.
"One does not simply ignore the power of ramp and fast mana" R.I.P Boromir son of Denethor II. "We wants it, we needs it, my precioussss!!!!" - Smeagol (Gollum)
I am going to be honest, this whole trend of Commander being pushed towards lower CMC and higher power etc has made me not want to play the format that much anymore. It's just no longer fun.
I only build jank these days
If you have a group that agrees then you have no issues
@@seanedgar164 Agrees to what? Ban every card that leans a bit on the more powerful side?
They went through this in the episode that this is a problem because you cannot just go through every card in everyones decks and ask if it is too powerful or not.
The problem has nothing to do with any specific card being too powerful . The problem is many cards that are only slightly too powerful
@@seanedgar164 I agree with Skylos that the social contract is less applicable the more cards that violate it
They made it competitive. And yes games are all competitive, but not turn 1,2,or 3 competitive.
24:40 --> I think that's EXACTLY the kind of conversation R&D should have as a standard, no matter how long it is.
Another well reasoned analysis from The Command Zone. As per usual, I appreciate your civility and insight.
I dont like jeweled lotus, but in my casual playgroup it won't have much effect. The big issue here for me 8s Opposition Agent and even Hullbreacher. While I actually like what the Agent does, I agree it should have been 2WW or 2WR. Hullbreacher, in my opinion, should have been either 2W or 2WU because it is SO reminiscent of Smothering Tithe. Basically a Nothion Thief stapled to a Smothering Tithe.
In response to the title: yes
wrong answer pal
In response to your comment: no
@@dylanreddish8615 you can't respond, you don't have priority
I do like Opposition Agent as a concept, but the card is so all-encompassingly powerful that it's ridiculous.
It's cheap, it has flash, it's a respectable 3/2, it stops your opponent from tutoring, you can tutor for a card yourself, AND it stays on the battlefield permanently?! This would have already been a black staple if it was just an ETB effect, a 1/1 without flash, or had a mana cost of 5+. I don't understand why they crammed so much into it without any downsides.
Would have been interesting if they made Jeweled Lotus into something like a "Lotus Sprite". Make it a 0/1 flyer with the same ability. Make it so it has summoning sickness.
i usually tend to agree with you, but with opposition agent i don't. it is a rogue type effect and a white rogue would break the color pie more imo. also i like having another option for landfall counterplay and punishing expensive manabases, which not everyone has access to. also if it was 4 or 5 cmc it would be so much worse. you can't just hold that much mana open usually. and as JLK stated i like that it might bring down tutor density a bit.
Omnath and Atraxa are high priority targets, I think they will play jeweled lotus to help replay their commanders
Thanks for the GREAT content! Regarding Jeweled Lotus, I am most excited about it assisting to casting cost prohibitive commanders (not even necessarily overly powerful ones) to open up seeing these commander actually played and cast.
I would argue that Jeweled Lotus is powerful, but narrow enough that I'm not up in arms about it.
Opposition Agent is powerful and always good unless you're at a pretty low power table (where nobody can afford tutors, including fetch lands). That puts it pretty much on the line for what I would consider a design mistake.
Hullbreacher is really powerful in any playgroup (who doesn't like to draw cards?), so much so that I'm willing to call it a mistake.
I like idea of colour shifting agent to white. Especially when blue gets new and better smothering tithe in hullbreacher
"I can't find what its doing, like, whats the upside"
SELLING. PACKS.
Did you skipp the first min?
They put vamp, mana drain, swords, staff of domination, rings of brighthearth. They will sell packs like crazy even if Lotus didn't exist
@@hansdieter8801 Did you blindly accept the apologism?
@@hansdieter8801 I always skip the first couple because it's all advertisement.
@@shavedata5436 They didn't appologize. They explain why you should critice cards, not asault people. You just hear what you want
Well... "The conversations can't get that long." I like this statement; it helps by pointing out why, even if some people complain about it, maintaining a ban list is required for all TCGs, even one as generally excellent as MtG. Not everyone can be perfect, even game designers; if cards are made that are inherently unhealthy for the game or for a format, the ban list can bring balance to the Force. The one great lesson we can learn from Konami's Yugioh TCG is this very thing: ban lists must exist.
So Praetors Grasp isnt affected by Opposition Agent it says “their library” not any library 🤔
Yep, another reason why I love that card.
Preators grasp into their opposition agent
@@abuelovinagres4411 interesting card one i havent came across I like it!
The reason which justifies it being a black and not white is as follows:
Its not prohibiting, it is stealing the effect for yourself. It is a decisively dimir thing to do. There are a lot of cards in black and blue that do that. Moreso in blue but still.
I just have a feeling this video was made before hullbreacher was spoiled.
Some variations to Opposition Agent that would made it less powerful, but still potentially useful:
2BR
Flash
If an opponent would search their library, you may flip a coin. If you win the flip, You control your opponents while they’re searching their libraries. While an opponent is searching their library, they exile each card they find. You may play those cards for as long as they remain exiled, and you may spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast them.
If you lose the flip, discard a card. If you cannot discard, you lose 3 life.
OR Maybe
2B
Flash
You control your opponents while they’re searching their libraries.
While an opponent is searching their library, they exile each card they find.
T: Sacrifice Opposition Agent. Until end of turn you may play cards exiled this way. You may spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast them.
Short answer: yes
Long answer: YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES
Thank you Jimmy and Josh, for always keeping a cool head amidst all the rampant emotions every set release.
CEDH worthy yes. Casual.... going to target yourself off the table.
Yeah, they are designed for CEDH which is a part of the format. I find a right decision to put powerful cards for that part of the players too ^^
I don't think it is wrong. You don't like it? Your playgroup doesn't like it? Don't play it ^^
True, but it will be hard, one is a one time use (mostly), and the other wont let u tutor for answers. So hard to get target.
casual = banned
In casual it will lead to scoops
@@mirkomigliavacca9894 you shouldn't consider cEDH as part of EDH since the social contract does not apply which the base of EDH.
I absolutely agree with you about Opposition Agent's color identity and mana cost. While I'd love this to be white, white, white it probably more fairly costed at 4 mana. Though I have admit that this effect feels boros, red steals stuff, white prevents library searches. Yeah, its really a boros effect
Opposition Agent as far as effects go, is an Orzhov card. Black is the master of tutors and has cards to control players, while white restricts tutors. Red tends to steal things temporarily at best. I would be ok with it costing 2WB easily
I think hullbreacher is Very pushed too. And honestly, I can't think in any other reason for these cards to be made besides being easy cash grab
Yeah, Wizards be all about that cash money...cards like these are going to result in a lot of negative play experiences 😕
Agreed, i'm not looking forward to playing against hullbreacher, for oposition agent they mostly depend on me using my own tutors/fetches(except for the 2 or 3 cards) and I control the timing for those effects, but wheels are a thing that affects every player
I love how we've been talking about Smothering Tithe like it's the second coming of white, and for no reason whatsoever we get a complete upgrade in blue. It straight up denies the draw, has flash, is a mana cheaper, and is in a much better color. I think I hate this card even more than Jeweled Lotus. You can justify using Rule 0 on Jeweled Lotus, but Hullbreacher is just niche enough where it will probably get past rule 0 and now we're all just stuck with this garbage.
@@2good2bu7 honestly I think hullbreacher can be played in tons of decks, not Just specific ones. Denying card draw while ramping is insane
I think you still run Jewelled Lotus with Kenrith and Sisay, you just actually want to use it a bit later. Now I can cast my commander and be more likely to have the mana available to also activate it.
Re: Opposition Agent - the “traitor” cycle messes with what their color does best. Black is the best tutor. Personally I think forcing the game back to 100 card singleton instead of 5 important cards, everything else is tutors or tools to draw into tutors, is good for the health of the format. Tutors speed the format up just as much as fast mana does.
Yes, lets print cards in colors that hose things those colors do, so that the colors with the best effects become even more powerful. Great idea WOtC...
I didn’t notice that but that’s a good catch. The whole cycle should have been printed in white.
I would say cycle in quotes because only black and blue got cards like that.
@@theOmnissiah8 admittedly at the time I made my comment I wasn't aware that the whole set was released or hadn't seen it Now that I know it's not a cycle, I agree, it should have just been 2W for both of them.
I'm on the other end of the spectrum guys. I love cards that REALLY push the format and effect almost ALL metas. Just for context though guys, in my meta tutors almost always get a groan and an eye roll... so when I see something that really shakes up the kinda predictable, nigh cliché, EDH rubric of tutor for win-con...win game, I get excited. To put it bluntly, to all who hate on HP cards that envigorate the format and force change, I say... get good scrub!
How is it a very negative thing or an "ulterior" motive that a group of employees of a capitalist company are making a decision to "just" make money. That's literally your responsibility. That isn't the problem. The Problem is prioritizing short term profits over long term sustainability. And prioritizing sales over the community that uses the product sold.
The problem is that for some reason the player base has decided that making money is bad. Like how the professor is all about buy singles unless their from wizards then it’s horrible to do so.
Because we are not that company. That company making money is fine, but it doesn't help us. So if something ultimately just exist for the benefit of the company and often to the long term detriment of us, then it is bad, for us!
Enough said. Was the first thing I wanted to write and couldn't of said it better!
@@MrDennisCordell The problem is that "making money" doesn't happen in a vacuum. Making money at expense of the game's health IS bad.
They develop the game
If their ONLY motive is to make money, despite the health of the game it is a bad thing
Not rocket science bud
FOR BOTH: I think either of these cards could been printed in a different product that wasn't targeted at commander players specifically - such as Modern Morizons, Battlebond...etc. Vintage, Legacy, and Cedh players are our MTG brethren and need to be shown some love as well on occasion.
That said in terms of commander:
OPPOSITION AGENT - I'm fine that the card is black. Other colors needing help shouldn't automatically mean that the remaining can't have stuff until they do. However, I'm not opposed to the idea that it was a missed opportunity to give this to white specifically, since there is a precedent for it. That said, this card should:
1) Be 4 CMC
2) Be double black
3) Say "may" on it
4) Be a 1/1
JEWELED LOTUS - Once we move past the point that nobody asked for this card (and that it doesn't help the format in any way) to fix it WOTC could:
1) Have it cost 1 CMC
2) Have it come in tapped
3) Have it cost 1 to activate so it's more of a filter and less of an explosion
Why would Jeweled lotus be printed in a set that wasn't focused on commander? More importantly, how would that solve any issue? More more importantly, wouldn't that just hurt Commander Classic just as much as it hurts Commander?
@@shavedata5436 Same reason Omnath was printed into Standard when it clearly didn't belong there. LOL
In my opinion, Opposition Agent is just in the same neighborhood as cards like Agent of Treachery.
Anything that takes cards or agency from other players is not something I like to see.
Jeweled Lotus just feels unnecessary. I'm not even mad at it.
I 100% agree that Opposition Agent should have been white, even if I'd rather it not exist. At least not as printed.
But Agent of Treachery is atleast 7 mana, thats a huge difference. It maybe hits turn 5 or 6 but not turn 2 or 3. Also Agent of Treachery isnt that good outside of specific decks (roone, yarok etc.)
What makes it a white effect? Casting/taking other people's stuff is typically Blue/Black. I agree that White needs the power, but it doesn't seem on theme.
I feel like they could have very easily not made this as bad if they made it so it was an enter the battlefield effect and not a constant dark aura infecting the table. At least then you save it for a an important time instead of possibly preventing people from searching for lands. Sure since its in black you could certainly repeat it from the graveyard but at least then you would know it was coming.
I agree too, it SO should have been a white card.
Are you serious? It's 7 mana vs 3 mana... And just some totally insignificant flash keyword.
@@Neonapfel9 Read the next part of my post. It's not the mana cost, but the _effect_ that puts them in the same realm for me. Taking cards from other players doesn't sit well, nor taking away their agency, as I stated before. In casual games, I don't like these; or mill, or discard effects. It's not what I consider fun. Y'all can do whatever you want in your groups, of course.
Thank you for being GENUINE! Exactly mythoughts on this card. If they print one more of these types its gonna drive me out of commander. Ive played every format for years and wound up at commander as my mainstay. Please dont vintage, modern, cedh my commander game
welcome to what modern players have been experiencing for two years
What about having the cedh guys have their own ban list? as well as the "casual" list. its already a diverse format w disclaimbers pre games and power lvls, i mean isnt it judging each others decks by power lvl another way of meassuring what a good game for everyone at the table would enjoy? and what is the ban list for
That wouldn’t change anything as the ban list is already based around casual edh. The rules committee rarely ban things based on cedh.
Your better off just having a discussion with your playgroup.
Sisay plays lotus so you can drop her on the battlefield and activate the same turn as soon as you have WUBRG
I play a pretty bonkers sisay and i dont think the lotus will get a spot in the deck. Chulane will love it though and i think Anje will get some for it's ceiling potential.
I am Sisay player and I approve that.
You can first drop 1-2 two-colored legendaries and then drop Sisay later if you have Lotus. And then you are ready to win in that turn cycle.
That creates pseudo protection effect on your Sisay because you have WURBG mana online.
If her can't activate her same turn or turn after, you're just risking removal by having her around and getting no value
I have a big issue with Op Agent. It should be a white card given the history of Aven Mind Censor and Flash in general. If all Opposition Agent did was stop tutoring it would be pushed. The fact that it is also a Praetor's Grasp with a Flash 3/2 body and also stops tutoring is silly. That it creates a easy combo win with a 3cmc commander is also ridiculous... Either no considered thought was given to design here or it is a money grab. Those are the two options in my opinion
About the lotus ,CEDH is fine with that, people agree to play the most powerfull things they can and win as fast as possible, There is already turn 2/3 wins there, the problem is this can break causal play, imagine this in a table with a power lvl of 5 or 6, it just wins
Just theoretically thinking: Would you play cards like: "instant {W}: you win the game". Probably yes, since it would be one of the most powerful cards and wins you the game as fast as possible. According to your argumentation.
Would this card be healty to cEDH in terms of how much you enjoy the game? I don't know, but i can't imagine, that there is a limit to the power of cards, when the games become unfun, even you want to win as fast as possible.
@@aw-qs6wt probably would not be healthy, games would suck, but It would be accepted like things like LD or severe stax is
@@aw-qs6wt I dont want to win as fast as possible. I want to sit down and have a fun time playing games.
I'm glad of these cards for one reason: it shows you what's broken, i.e. Tutors, Fetchlands, Too Powerful Commanders, Fast Mana. These effects put one player so far ahead that synergy doesn't matter. These are the effects that make the game pay to win.
And you are happy about that? You honestly are an awful person.
I like that Opposition Agent punishes Tutors and Fetch-lands.
I don't know why so many people hate it. Personally, I hate tutoring a whole lot more than I hate being able to stop it.
That being said, I am just a mono-white / boros player after all.
Tutors are a necessary evil in a singleton format. Yes the slow down gameplay with shuffling. But besides just drawing a bunch of cards its how you can make a deck at least semi consistent. Now do we all need to go the Cedh rout and have all our decks run a dozen tutors. Probably not. But it attacks decks in a way that slows down the game and if if just had that first line of text would be a good political card. But because you can never be someone's friend with it it just feels bad.
Agreed I don’t like spending tutor priced money on cards so any chance to mess with it adds to my fun
@@TheSmartCinema I just dont like the fact it punishes any fetch lands, like i run a lot of evolving wilds and the slow fetches. That and the fact it is not a "may" ability just makes it an unfunded card to me
I’m totally fine with it too. This kind of can level a playing field hosing someone with a 1000$ deck for example. No. You’re not gonna get your win con and now your 8 fetch lands are dead draws.
Do NOT sleep on Daretti with Jeweled Lotus! He can recycle this bad boy all game.
Ps, LOVE the channel!!!
It's pretty dope that they went to Wizards about how much Jeweled Lotus would make the format suck.
Of the two, opposition agent is the more likely to catch a ban. It leads to really bad play patterns, but the RC doesn't usually ban a lot for that anymore.
I'm with you on this one. That card is just super un-fun. The fact that it is persistent is what feels the worst about it.
I was pretty "mhe" on the lotus, but then I realized that it will be mediocre on an average basis and near game winning in strategies that already are excellent and don't need the help. So, yeah, mistake
The cliff analogy is a very good one. It's something I've been afraid of for a while now, especially since Fire was introduced. And not only for commander. There are simply points of no return.
I think people are overestimating how bad jeweled lotus is after turn 1. 1) there's a ton of value to be stolen on a later turn when you're able to drop your commander and free up 3 on board mana to drop combo pieces all at once. 2) Commander tax is a thing and I think commander re-casts are uncommon not because it's bad to re-cast but because it's hard to ramp, get removed, ramp more, all while responding to the board. Even omnath might run this, just because if you have to re-cast it frees up so much space for you to still be getting combo pieces or board answers down, and also saves you from having to play your land for turn before you re-cast him.
Like I don't think it's OP but I do think if your commander costs mana or if the commander tax rule exists then you go ahead and run this if you have it.
I really like opposition agent. I see black as the “screw with your opponents” color, and this card inspired me to make a deck. As for Jeweled lotus. There’s plenty of decks where it’s too powerful, but there’s plenty of commanders it doesn’t help with, or it doesn’t help enough with. And it’s hardly going to show up in the first couple turns where it will supposedly have the biggest impact on the game.
I like the opposition guy, there is a guy in our group that tutors ALOT and will be nice to have an answer for that
It would be smarter to house rule ban tutors than to play a card like "Opposition Agent" that will lead to a lot of feel bad.
Yeah and it dies to removal at instant speed too so its not like its too op.
I could use a tutor.
@@samd1757 yeah, sure
Because single target removal at instant speed is exactly what people that are tutoring usually have in hand
@@cacs2201 no I mean not the item you're tutoring for, just in general this card can be stopped quite easily.
I believe that Skat players often use a checklist to set the table rules at the start; a quick list of cards with y/n/maybe answers seems possible. I agree with your shared views on both cards - white would indeed have been an excellent home for tutor-hate, and even for a jeweled lotus kind of card just for white (giving white commanders an edge getting out early).
On the question of banning Jeweled Lotus: since powerlevel isn´t the only factor for banning cards (Iona comes to mind) I think JL is very ban-able. My first reaction was also about the variance and unfun games this card creates.
I feel a banlist is there to make a game enjoyable, not to keep its general powerlevel in check.
Now obviously only time will tell, wether JL has that effect on the broader commander community, but it sure seems like it has the potential.
The RC will never ban it, they are "owned" by wotc now.
@@hermodnitter3902 That is definitely an opinion
I'm not for a ban list but how about a CEDH ban list and a Casual commander ban list. Maybe that would work.
I think the worst part of opposition agent is flash and colour identity. Outside of stalling tutored win conditions, what this card affects most is land ramp. Land ramp is something that's really hard to interact with and is so powerful because there are so many ways to repeatably draw lands from within your deck. This stops this till they get removal
The sad part of all these problematic cards and products coming out lately is that just fractures the community meanwhile Wotc/Hasbro keep growing their pockets
I love Josh's highly nuanced answers to these recent problem cards.
1:53
Thank you.
These comments never get enough love.
Being so understanding with all the animosity and negativity constantly pouring towards you guys is truly inspiring. Keep on rockin!
Hullbreacher should have also been white.
Say that to Narset and Leovold
Well articulated on a great many points. In particular, I like the talk about power creep in Commander; its a very important point and having the largest Commander content creators articulate it so well is a huge benefit.
The merfolk with the treasure trigger on 2nd draw per turn is stronger in my opinion than both of these cards.
The higher the powerlevel the stronger opposition agent becomes
It's not stronger. It's easier to deal with than the white tax card. And overall less effective. That said I love it and there should be more effects like it. Also busted in wheel decks. But what isnt. And is removable.
Opposition agent shuts down opponents searches. One wheel and you net 21 treasures and a fresh grip. Which is more likely
To win you a game?
@@jeffnorris211 agreed. Locking out searches will more than likely always be more relevant. But on the rare chance my niv mizzet untaps with this and a wheel I've pretty much won.
@@Goodthrust69 compared to smothering tithe, tithe counts every draw and is an enchantment. That’s the upside. The downside is it cost 1 more mana, they can pay for the tax and it doesn’t prevent your opponents from drawing cards! The big difference that pushes the pirate so hard is that it is like tithe and narset combined! Replacing the opponents draw with ramp for you is nuts!
This was an excellent discussion of both these cards. It literally addressed all of my concerns as a player about what WoTC design like this does to the format. They need to STOP printing all this fast, free mana.
It's awful that they do this
So many people may not like it, but we're all thinking.. I need one..
@@Zarbon000 that's definitely the worst part. It becomes an arms race that none of us want to take part in - but everyone feels pressured to do so.
@@befuddledfaun Question, do you have or do you plan to get a Jeweled Lotus?
@@Zarbon000 I certainly feel a bit of pressure to get one for a deck or two. I'm not sure yet though. You?
The only part of Agent I have a problem with is spending mana of any color. There should be limitations and this card has none. I should be limited by colors to cast what I get from Agent. Also, there’s way too many cards that let you spend of mana as though it were mana of any color. That phrase needs to go away.
Jeweled Lotus is a cEDH card. That's really the value you'd see for games with decks looking to win by turn 3-5. Quick mana and moving fast.
Actually, I think it is a card that makes tier 2 cEDH fringe lists sit closer to tier one. So basically it makes anything at an 8-9 show the potential to be a 9-10 in power level. It is not good enough to slot in most tier 1 cEDH decks because usually their commanders are either multiple colors or they have such a low mana cost that the Lotus wastes mana putting them into play. It will inevitably become a casual staple if you want to keep up with literally anyone else in the game that has one in their list.
wow, Josh actually tried to prevent the lotus before we were aware of it...
In addition to what was said in the video, I believe it his is a very powerful tool piece for artifact recycling decks. Because it can be sacrificed in response to removal. Most non counter spell themed decks are going to have a hard time dealing with that. I also think it is better in multi colored decks than I initially thought because it can get you whatever color you are missing to play your commander. Ritual effects usually aren’t that great in commander unless recursively built around. 0 CMC also provides some tutor options which will make it easier to find/play in people may realize. I also prefer strategies that draw more cards vs tutors because it keeps games from the same deck feeling different from game to game. I will say, however that I’m glad when many commander games finally end, which takes quite a bit longer in precon decks.
I don't know. For me, Jeweled Lotus is the weaker of the two cards discussed in episode. Jeweled Lotus in your starting hand will get you ahead but it's like playing a Sol Ring on turn 1. Players will target you if you cast your commander on turn 1. You will be the enemy to target. It's also a dead draw on turn 8, since it can be only used to cast they commander. Sol Ring is typically good on most turns.
Opposition Agent is the more egregious of the two, since your controlling tutors and stealing the cards they tutor for. I am primarily a green player and play a lot of land tutors, so this card messes with me a lot. I don't want the jerk playing opposition agent to steal my lands. Now i'm gonna have to hold open Path to Exile now every time I try to tutor.
Agreed, I would very much prefer O.Agent to be banned over lotus.. Knowing my playgroup and our powerlevel, each deck with black will abuse that shit.. Probably looking at our first house-ruled ban..!
The problem with Lotus instead of sol ring isnt that it is more powerful, but that it makes games more one sided. Either u get a huge advantage of Lotus (bigger spike that sol ring) and nobody has an answer = you win or they have an answer and nothing else happens. The card doesnt make the game more fun or interactive. (Also its less accesable than sol ring which sucks too.)
I generally don't like Opposition Agent, but their solution of having it cost 1WWW is fairly brilliant if the card has to exist. Green as a color on it's own is pretty overtuned in Commander, and Opposition Agent is clearly going to mess with ramp the most. Sure it won't be as splashy as stealing a Vampiric Tutor or something similar, but it's going to hit Green ramp spells more than anything. Would be a step in the right direction to bring both White and Green in line with the rest of the colors if it worked this way.
Sol Ring (who should also be banned) doesn't give you access to colored mana, and it only ramps you 1 colorless mana at turn-1, since you're using one mana to cast it. Basically, Sol ring is a decision to have a 'worst' first turn so you can have a better second, while with lotus you get that good turn right away. And yeah, dropping a turn-1 commander can win you the game depending on what you're playing, as the play-tester said himself. You should also notice that you can have both Sol ring and lotus, which makes you more consistently play your commanders early.
And about your 'politics' argument, that's just a meme. By the time your opponents can do anything to stop you, you already advanced the game more than they did. This is the famous Serra's Ascendant argument: 3 opponents can deal with Serra's ascendant at turn-1, but by the time they do, you already gained some life, reduced their life totals, and gained a 1 mana 6/6 flying lifelink in your graveyard (with possible recurssion), while they lost 1-2 removal spells on it; perhaps even losing their turn to take it down. Good cards win games, and if one card forces 3 players on the defensive, you're more likely to win, not less. If you're playing white and not playing Serra's Ascendant in your deck, you're playing Commander wrong.
If Opposition Agent JUST prevented searching, then yeah I can see it being in red/white.
I think Jeweled Lotus will see a lot of play initially, but will eventually fade out when people get the feel bads of drawing it but having no use for it.
Should be white
Jeweled lotus can pay for commander tax too. It's not as dead as everyone says.
you CONTROL the turn of the opponent, in FACT you CAN tap ALL his/her mana BC tap mana dont go to the pile.
@@leojas You can't do that unless they have Panglacial Wurm. While you are resolving the tutor ability, you can't activate any other abilities, including mana abilities.
You can look at their hand, though.
@@GunbladeKnight no, you CAN tap a land for mana whatever you can do, there is not a response to or triggered by don go to the pile. You are controlling the turn you can do it in that moment
josh and jimmy, you do realize this is the most radical episode you've ever made? 360 DUUUUDE RADICAAAAAAL
Josh talked about how he didn't see any situation where Jeweled Lotus was fun and added something to the format, but here's one that I can think of: I think it's fine, and fun, if you use it on turn 4 or 5 to power out your Chorus of the Conclave, or your Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund, or your Garza Zol, Plague Queen. Huge, splashy, but impractical commanders that you just don't see anymore because they're too expensive, the lotus will let you get them onto the field at least once. That's why my fix for the lotus would be to only have it work to cast a commander with a CMC of 6 or greater
agent - antifun (taking away player agency should be rare, this thing is just... ugh)
lotus - WAY overhyped
(I don't like either of them, but whatever)
I hate ad's(I'm sure most do), but I always have to watch yours. Y'all are great
Spoiler:
"maybe they suck but they won't break the format"
So then the definition of power creep
You left out the part where Josh BEGGED Gavin not to print Jeweled Lotus.
Well said overall. I must say though, i do think jewelles lotus is in here simply to sell packs even with wizards and the people who designed this product knowing full well its bad for the format.
Nah, they're absolutely fine. Tutors are strong cards and deserve strong answers, and the Jewel is not nearly as strong as other commander legal cards, such as Mana Crypt, Gaea's Cradle, and perhaps even Sol Ring
Objectively correct on both counts.
The problem with Opposition Agent is that its existence changes game decisions, but ultimately does not warp the format that much. People are still going to have tutors and fetches in their deck, they might just have to play around it. You can think of it more like a hate bear, or as mentioned, an upgraded Aven Mindcensor level effect, so I think it remains to be seen how much the Agent will affect the format.
The problem with Jeweled Lotus on the other hand is that it _does_ warp the format. As mentioned, every low cost mana rock makes it more reliable to lean into high-powered commanders, pushing us closer to that cliff. It isn't interactive, Opposition Agent can be killed by any number of cards, Jeweled Lotus only is impacted by counterspells and things like Stony Silence, so it's much more reliable. It's the same reason that printing more free counterspells drags the format down by their existence, but whereas counterspells can only protect your combo pieces, Jeweled Lotus makes the combos much faster.
And ultimately, as Josh said, what is the upside of this card? What does it give to the format? I don't think it gives anything positive. I think that it is very much a design mistake, and I personally suspect it was pressured in order to drive sales, which is completely unnecessary, this set is the most hyped I've seen my playgroup ever.
Please, Wizards, stop going down this road. Nobody was asking for Black Lotus to be legal in commander, and I don't think it even would have occurred to anyone that you would print one that's even half as powerful. The format is tenuous, the game's future is uncertain. Step back from the ledge.
the best way to play around OA is just don't run tutors of any kind.