EFFICIENT MASS STORAGE - TIMBERBORN Update 6 R&D Session 2
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Join us in Research & Development as we investigate how storage works and how we can create efficient mass storage.
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This is part 53 of a challenging new gameplay series in the awesome beaver city building game TIMBERBORN Update 6 on Hard Mode. Can I survive the terrifying droughts and bad tides and engineer the ULTIMATE Beaver Paradise?
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Hear me out, it's another big project, what if you put a tunnel through the dam to give lower access to the storage from the ground level?
ok THAT is an interesting idea! .. gonna use that :)
Re: warehouse choice
It seems that when picking up debris they are looking for the closest warehouse.
If the closest warehouse is full, then they are looking for next warehouse that is closest.
But NOT closest to the debris, CLOSEST to the warehouse that could not accept the item.
This would also explain why they are choosing the Archie side first then small-one&big-one direction.
Simply their pathfinding algorithm is looking there first on archie side then in then small-one&big-one direction
Agree, this is more obvious in the double helix test where beavers fill the three alternating warehouses on the same single helix. (13:08, btw they won’t prioritize the fourth because beavers returned to the rubble and start calculating the next hauling job, and now they find the first warehouse in the other helix closer. This pattern already starts when filling the third one in the helix, because some beavers returned from the second warehouse and found the first on the other helix is closer)
Along your line of thought, my hypothesis is that the beavers will trigger the rerouting when they arrived at the warehouse and then find it is full. In this situation, they start the finding the path again, which naturally points to the closest warehouse to the current full one. This is definitely a better choice versus triggering reroute at the exact moment when target warehouse is full, since it makes computation easier and covers more edge cases (like when another beaver takes out something immediately). To verify this, we could make the rubble way further from warehouses. Currently they are too close to judge the details.
Also it seems like the calculation is not just by distance, but a score calculated by various conditions with different weight. Conditions definitely involve distance, emptiness and building settings, could involve height or direction, or even random numbers. So if there is no clear winner in one batch of calculations, we could see scattering.
Also seems like they prioritize filling a warehouse before starting to fill an empty warehouse. So if they already started filling a warehouse they will finish filling it before moving on to a closer warehouse.
you also have to take into account how many beavers are moving items, so if enough are allocated to 1 warehouse but are further away, that warehouse might not be filled before the next is started on. only way to know is to just have movers next to where goods are to be moved then run the test
And the side choice (if the distance is the same) is probably on grid level closer to coordinates 0.0 are first.. So Archies side is probably the 0.0 side
I'd normally wait to the end of the video to comment but so many questions.
Could it be the order in which the paths were laid (previous comment about districs and lag placing connecting paths without them could suggest complex path tracking), could it be radial distance from the hauling posts (fill of second row in third test area), could it be cardinal directions having an influence on fill direction (what would it look like filling from a path at one end, multiple paths, rather than central and also with storage N,S,E,W from the source pile)?
You really should consider doing complex testing outside of your production environment, is it time for a Matrix style "white void" for these R&D sessions? 😉
i think it could either be paths laid, or order the buildings are built. if none of those match, then there could be a function combining order built and distances
@@semperrabbit05I was thinking it might have something to do with closest to path/closest to district center or middle of map. Meaning they set the targets when they leave the idle area. Target pathing is usually based on closest to something. Just has to find what the something is.
@@CringeMeHarder there are different types of close. it could be cardinal(( north < south)
I would presume that the storage allocation is done at the point the goods become rubble (so the system checks they're valid for collection as storage is available) and then there is a seperate logic controlling which rubble the beavers collect (which will be the same for every beaver, hence the clumping), which isn't linked to the storage they're assigned to. So chances are the goods are allocated in a sensible way, but the intersection with the beaver rubble collection logic makes the overall process seem illogical.
I thought the double helix would be around the central column since Skye is such a fan of symmetry
Dear Skye and Picture,
It is based on patching from the district it seems like. Whichever is closes via the shortest path gets started first. so when you were on the mountain the left path may have been shorter than the right. When you were on the ground the left path may have been shorter than the right. Watch the haulers and which way they run off to. It is based on either hauling posts or the city district and patching and how close it is to one or the other it seems like. The haulers take the shortest path first.
Are you going to store water and other liquids? Because you may want to think about putting a layer of large drums under ground for misc liquids and have something on top of them to then out the water.
I think in the ground situation, the distance by path was exactly the same for both sides, as there was only a single path leading towards the whole storage area.
But on coordinates level one is allways closer to 0.0
@@PauxloE yes on the ground it was the same from the pile of stuff to the warehouses. However it isn't the same from the hauler posts to the pile of stuff on the ground. Some beavers may take one path and others may take another path. I think the path distances dictates which one they go to. If beaver A has 100 feet to go from its hauler posts to warehouse C and 120 feet to warehouse A it will go to C. While beaver B has 150 feet to go to Warehouse A but 160 feet to Warehouse B it will go to A. Sorry for the confusion. But it is about the paths from each warehouse and hauler post and patching and all that.
Have you thought of doing 2 wide platforms to hide the stairs going up into the towers on each side of the middle. Hide the stair channel that goes up and only have a small spot open where the stair comes up to the top.
18:48
Maybe the orientation has something to do with it?
Like is it setup north to south or east to west......?
Dear Skye,
I don't understand how they made their thing for the distribution on the storages. Official wiki just says it's the nearest storage, and some comment on their Discord point that it's the nearest storage when the beaver starts the tasks (way before actually picking the resource).
Well.. that's what they do.. they are picking an item for storaging. Probably knowing the closest storage. When picked the beaver willn controlling if the storage is still available. If not, search one the next storage in the area of the full storage. When 2 storages are even close together. 1 storage will have a lower coordinates number (like 0.0) and be the next storages. When there are to much beavers on there way to the same storage. The beaver will search for the next warehouse that is the closest to the actual location. That can be an other locatio, depending on the distances between storages
you could put impermeable floors on top of the leves of the pipes to cover them up and make it look better.
Hey Skye. Computer programmer here. Routing “problems” like this one are typically handled via a set of rules which would coalesce to form a priority destination.
Obviously, we don’t have access to the source code, but the algorithm might look something like this:
1. Storage is not full. Not paused. Not emptying.
2. Storage is prioritized by haulers.
3. Storage is set to obtain.
4. Accept.
5. ???
#5 could be random (all storages tied), some internal ID (which the game assigns and uses to distinctly identify the building), or other priority such as “elapsed time since last change” (which could be a timestamp of the last moment you checked/unchecked a box on the building).
Due to cuts in recording, we were not able to see your setup process. If there is some sort of tiebreaker, look into the setup steps.
I think it could also be some kind of cache system on path finding. I consistently see that they are taking the same turn on intersections. It seems like the system caches the path for the first hauling trip and then uses that to calculate subsequent trips even after the storage is filled. Only when the subsequent path becomes too long, it flushes the cache re-calculates the full path. That would explain this scenario (13:37) (and subsequently all the others, but that's the best example), where after the third storage it calculates a new path and the closest one turns out to be the first storage on the second pile. Then the occasional anomalies happen because these calculations are made per beaver instead of globally, so there's timing differences when the calculations are made and thus, different amount of available storage (and distance to storage) affecting the shortest path logic and cache.
Granted, I am no programmer by trade, nor have I any kind of education on it. I only understand some very basic programming logic, but have slightly better than average (to be modest) pattern recognition skills. So, I don't really know what I'm talking about.
But If I am correct, it would mean that the most efficient storage system would be one that has only one path. But overall, I don't see randomness anywhere in the "accept" behaviour. "Obtain" seems to have some.
Also, there can be different calculations for short and long distance pathing. It seems that on long distances they decide the closest storage by a straight line and on short distances they use actual walking paths.
Yeah I was thinking its probably based on which he built first. It might take a few cycles for it to be how it should be
What is happening is that the haulers get a final destination when they accept the tasks. So all available haulers on the map start by delivering to the obtain storage, once they arrive at it they either deliver or if it is full they create a new shortest path route. The shortest path for the ones that are routed originally to the obtain is the third one down. Once the obtain is full the few that need to go back to get more then choose the shortest path as being the second one down. The reason so much gets put in the third one down is because of the massive amount of haulers on his map already pathing to the obtain right before it fills.
20 minutes in and my theory is... The beavers go to the "closest" storage facility, So A (the location of the item) to B (the assigned storage).
But if the storage fills up, prior to the beaver getting there, it is still traveling on that trajectory, so it keeps going to the next/nearest storage on that line, WITHOUT turning around. Which in this case would be C.
And maybe the beavers choose the left versus right side, depending on where they originally came from. If they came from the left side of the map, to the central cross road, the closest storage to them would be the first one one the left side.
Maybe there is so much lag between the calculation and that is why the beavers continue going in the one direction, rather than altering the course to go to the nearest storage on the opposite side.
Dear Skye, thumb, thump, finger on the screen of me phone;
As an observer of this game and a few select players on the tube and twitch, and not being able to play as i have 5 broken PC's from a decade ago.
The game seems to run in a clockwise fashion, like tree planting, crops, the harvesting the same way, so storage may be the same but from the orientation from the District Center, then path, and /or where it comes from, floor, building etc, still in a clock wise orientation. Could be the same for helix stairs and other pathing structures?
Maybe build a clock face of storage, with your mass of pine resin in the middle, multi-path to the times of clock, destroy and see if 1 is before noon etc?
Also in the storage demonstration/r&d, you used levies/dirt (at future proposed building site)but using wooden columns/pillars, you can use them as part of the structure and walk through them?
I enjoy your work, sort of the Tony Hart of Timberborn. ;).
I was going to say Rolf...
But he turned out to be a bad man. Sorry tmi.
Hits return... Click
Now back to my hole.
Runs back,... Hi, Picture.😊
Now back to hole.
since the double helix one is more for show, why not use 5x1's instead of the 3x1's? yeah, takes even more room, but then you could keep the outside ones centered, and put some large storages up the middle. only 7 minutes into this one atm
I think they choose storage locations based on the shortest distance from where they work or district centre, not the length of the road from where they pick the goods up.
21:48
Time to send this video to the Dev team and tell them that they have some explaining to do!!
we got a beaver on snow white to give the lesson 🤣🤣 Jk love the thumbnail
Dear sky, you have alot off pine resin😂
19:46 I bet it’s a something due to x y cords. Probably the way it’s coded and then the z probably code changes on each cord.
If you move all your industry ontop of Archie’s back then you can put a lot of storage on there
That was my thought as well. x,y,z coords and I think the distance is taken from the district center and not the hauling posts as well. Would need to test though
Just a thought...Are the beavers filling the storage on the basis of distance from the district center? Or a combination of distance, fill type request (accept or obtain), and proximity to source?
Dear Skye, Beautiful... Just Beautiful.
But the priest of the holy spud miss their temple. The holy spudonomicon needs a resting place.
Signed a concerned in awe potatostian
Since you are starting with all mats on the ground and empty containers all haulers start with a path to the closest obtain storage. If they arrive at the obtain after grabbing the materials and it is full, they create a new path to the closest walking distance accept. The closest accept is the third one down because of the double helix. Some beavers finish go back to grab more and at that point the closest path is to the 2nd down accept.
My thoughts.... On the Helix staircase, Beavers fill up level 1 on side A. then when it is full, they still try to take the produce to the first storage, but it is full, and then the next closest storage is level 2 on side B.
I would say that the beavers are coded to continue walking in the same direction along a path rather than doubling back, even if the warehouses are the same distance away.
OK warehouses, my theory is along the lines of when you spoke about about small water barrels and why beavers don't go to the closest storage coz of pre-assigned tasks and they have to complete that task first. So, each beaver (say 20 of them) will be told to go to left storage A all at the same for example, but because the beavers retain their assigned task as the storage gets full, then they will get reassigned to the closest next storage to the first storage assigned - they will get to left storage A, find out there is no capacity to put their carried item in that storage, so they go to the next closest storage at that moment of the reassigned task, and that maybe not be from the original task source, i.e. the debris pile. II appears the engine doesn't count the number of items, the pre-assign where beavers should go, for example, 4 storages of 5 capacity, 20 beavers will all be told to go to the same storage instead of 5 beavers go to storage A, 5 beavers go to storage B, etc.
Dunno if you figured the tower scenario out yet but the path to get to the 2nd floor down has to go up first then down to get to the 3rd level from the floor. In the double towers they are going down first and every down is the odd floor. If that makes sense
The thing with the weird hotbox might have been the regular pile & not the underground one
→ 3:56 A simple solution here seems to be to just put the large warehouses here one level higher, e.g. on some medium warehouses + platforms. (With the ironteeth, an industrial pile works best.)
→ 4:02 seeing the stairs going in this direction gives an interesting thought: You can put in the stair double helix in the opposite direction to the platform double helix, and it still works. (Doesn't change anything about accessibility of warehouses, though.)
→ 13:38 "What are the haulers going to do?" - Picking rubble off the ground is the job for builders, not haulers. (As shown here by all your builder bots coming, not the hauler beavers.)
→ 12:50 "Why on earth is it going into those?" - it seems like they prefer one of the staircases to the other one?
→ I think there might be a difference between builders cleaning up rubble and haulers moving things from one warehouse to another (or from a production place to a warehouse). So all your experiments might not have that much relevance to the actual work happening in a beaver colony, where "clean up rubble" is more of a one-off activity, not something we really need to optimize for.
→ 30:15 I think you should be able to arrange these a bit more space-efficiently - there is no need to have a gap between each two. Though the need for the overhang makes it a bit tricky to get many more in. - 39:22 At least the second row can get done without the spaces, as you can do the overhangs from over the central corridor, and also have no pillars blocking the doors. This should allow at least two more stacks of large storages on both halves of the second row. Maybe in the top level you space them out again to allow the fast access to the always needed goods.
→ 35:20 I think the lumbermill is famously slightly to high for the overhangs, while the gear workshop fits under them.
I think maybe you may have the space to add a 9th tower of storage in the middle of the front row? That'll give you 17 in total.
Maybe it has to with the moment of completion. Codewise they are numbered, maybe they just go to the next integer in the database. I know that the stacked ones don’t track in that case because you can only complete them in order, but maybe it has to do with path connections - they could be stored as integers as well.
In fact this makes some sense, as a completed building only comes available when it gets a path hooked up, so maybe there is another database with path connections, and those get addressed logically by first come first serve.
There is sone merit to that if you see the behaviour between accept/request doesn’t differ anything.
You do need to force path haulers from a central storage for if you have an abstract hauler they're all bots It's a game if a hunger bar doesn't go into a negative like wellbeing, you do play games right you know I also have a laugh when I watch people create organics in Minecraft. Probably not your thing but 'FunTimesWithScar' is entertaining...........👋
We only saw you testing distance, but you had 9 different starting locations.
To reduce variables, use a separate district, then control for,
- path laying order
- location of rubble ( compress rubble to one tile )
- left vs right
- number of beavers / only 1 hauling post
- distance from hauling post
- distance from town hall
I think when the haulers finish a job they pick the nearest thing that needs moving and the nearest destination that can accept it, then they do that. So if they dropped something off on the right they pick the nearest item and warehouse. Its not the closest warehouse to the item but to where the beaver was when he decided to take the job.
OH my, I've just restarted this map on my Steam deck, and I found a hidden mine on the hill where the two waters come together before coming down. There used to be a little hole. They have changed that to 14 natural overhands with a mine deep under it,
Ignore me if you have all already found it, I have no friends to get all excited with, so I thought I would say it here lol,
The only question is if the underground storage goes in at the bottom layer.
Going to be fun seeing you build this system several times in the next episodes because following a blueprint is hard.
Especially one you made yourself.
Don't you just love how when a dam piece is being built then some builder from the opposite side of the map allocates to build it. Why are they programmed to path find in a sequence is about game stability. You know kids these days they love mods an easy game error code maker, have you manually defragmented your computer or expect the auto function to task manage it for you so you can go off and do something more productive? Food for thought.... Sluice gate, goes where?
At the risk of saying something that you figure out later in the episode. The double spiral is two paths that switching between requires back tracking to the top.
In the first stacked test one and three are on the same branch of the double helix, if a beaver was headed for one and it became full going to two would require going to the top or bottom to get on the other half of the helix, making three closer.
On the second stack they also favored the warehouse on the same spiral as 1 and 2 on this first stack.
However they didn't favor the bottom of the second stack in any way so the redirection idea probably isn't right.
But that spiral, where they use the down stairs furthest from the cliff is clearly preferred.
Yes!! Another R&D episode. I love these skye! Keep up the great work. Can't wait for the next episode.... tomorrow lol 😅😅😅
So from your flat tests it looks like a slightly naive path finding algorithm but i would guess it selects random directions at intersections when looking for storage. Then it looks like that is probably assigned to the item, then a worker goes to the nearest item and i guess a few came from a different direction? Or pathed at a different time (busy on another task when you deconstruct) and go to a different pile which explains the random small amounts but it is very strange.
What you really need though is to constrain your variables a bit better and test changing one at a time but I would guess that could take some time in a dev world or seeing the actual algorithms in use.
Skye - If you put single high platforms (with paths) in the center of your double helix, wouldn't they be able to crossover much easier and reduce pathing?
Where are they coming from the moment haulers are prompted they will work from work so your hauler posts are where Mr symmetrical....? Asthetics huh, what 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂👋
13:30 so they are all using one side of the spiral stairs
the way those are built is it will only be on the same side every 4 layers, which means every other large warehouse
so as they go down the stairs to reach storage 1, when it fills, the beavers will logic from their current location to storage 2, which is the closest from where they intended to move them
and then again, continue to aim to fill it up. Once 2 is full, the logic over to find 3 which again is only two stairs further away
the few beavers which (and this is random) had their logic take them to the one opposite 1, or below 1, or just... not 1. They are the ones you see as "randomly getting a few" and their brains do the same, filling the odd warehouses despite the bulk of beavers going elsewhere
maybe there's a limit on how many beavers can be assigned to fill a storage at any one time
but i think once a beaver has selected a warehouse to fill, it won't swap until it's full, then it'll look for the closest based on it's previous target warehouse, and not just the new TRUE closest
the beaver's need to swap what they are hauling, or just have a pause all together, for the logic to reset
1. The builders are the ones picking things up from the ground. So Could the behaviour of prioritize what storage to go to differ between builders and haulers? Maybe they obtain and accept choices only effects the hauler?
2. Would it work with a 3x3 helix staircase and then a 5x5 helix on the outside of the 3x3 to access the buildings/storages? Probably really inefficient and a waste of space but it might look cool.
You can fit the spiral staircase in a 5x3 area, bacause you don't need access to the back. one of the helix's is always on the level you want and the second is just one level higher, so just add a staircase.
looks like they choose the closest storage, and if there are 2 it randomises, while the next storage looks to be calculated from the previously used storage? maybe?
On my last save I made a waterwheel generator with a large underground space underneath. I then placed all the industry and storage inside stacked in that underground space. I found out afterwards that I didn’t make the generator quite large enough, so it was a little underpowered. But finding how to make space for the industry for 6 bot assemblies plus its industry was lots of fun!
i think the way they are storing it is in priority order. once the second one is consumed, the third one is the next closest to them in terms of pathing.
seem to recall someone in a video saying the small storages only accepting 1 beaver/bot to queue up to bring or take from it, wonder what the numbers are for larger storages, if thats even a thing, and if so, that's playing some part along with pathing somehow in which storages are being selected
Haven't finished the video yet, but could it be with the length of path between the hauler posts to the destination and then it prioritising off that? Probably one of the many rules used to discern the behaviour of the beaver hive-mind. Perhaps run some tests in a blank map without all your current path work.
The reason for the pattern in which they fill the storage seems simple.
Well, of course there must be some simple internal rules that make them chose the storage to the right first.
But after that it makes sense for the beavers to fill the second storage on the right next.
You're only looking at the relative positions of the storages and the pile of items ... but there are beavers already on their way to the first storage on the right when it reaches max capacity.
Those beavers are closer to the second warehouse on the right than the one to the left.
And I assume the other beavers follow them and fill up one storage at a time to reduce the number of variable item stacks and simplify item management in the game.
Dee'uh @skye,
Oi, yuh tests had a whee bit of a flaw in 'em mate. Ya be needing to give them another go to verify consistent inconsistency.
Test one example: if upon reset the storage 2 was filled before storage 3, then you'd know that there truly is no consistency.
So 'ave another go at it Gov! Blimey, I wasn't taking tha piss, just trying to give a hand. Cheerio!
Been waiting to comment, was sure you were going to spot the 3 spaces you left that would give space for another stack. Removing that spacing allows for 4 more stacks or warehouses.
Dear: Skye
Beaver logic is not Human logic.
The Storage idea is an interesting one for sure. looking forward to the next video.
Just set the "deep storage" to supply. They wont fill a supply warehouse until everything else is full.
It looks for a bit like the behavior ot ants... the follow the group and then check the next closes target . To after the first beaver decide go to the storage on the right, the next closest to that storage without turning 180° around is the second one on the right
So about that sluice Gate under your aqueduct in the dividing wall of your dam, just so you know it should be above half way and more than one staged. Dear skye
Isn't it the same way for the planting pattern?
Look at how they approach planting out a new area with crops, pretty sure that is the same way...
The source is the significance if you stack 4 storage's the top one should have a storage on it 2 act as 1 entity so if you had 6 storage you'd actually have 3.
As a programmer the developer of the game probably couldn't even tell you why they have that behavior
Would the double helix staircase going around the pillar still give you access to all the levels? Might look a bit better.
I'm curious can you build an underground storage on the bottom 1 tile deep, I'm guessing you can.
We need "If you can understand the beaver" slogan merchandise
Could potentially save space on the side staircases, since they won't have to be double Helixes. They only need to go one direction.
Dear skye, what sort of seagul defence/pummeling systems does have the 633 squadron have available?
That storage complex is going to look very interesting. Its also going to be fun seeing it built in an actual lets play.
hmm... maybe if you made your helix using fours you could get it to work as you wanted originally
I was thinking its the storage closest to the town hall that they priorities but that doesn't work
I think the building you were thinking of was the centrifuge..
You have to go higher over the hauling post than you would think.
This experiment is giving you you xyz axes of the world grid it seems?
You forgot the impermeable floor tiles 😂😂😂
When life gives you lemons and peaches make peach lemonade
Can't wait to watch you actual put in the new storage
and also, it makes perfect sense! lol
Dear Shye
Thanks for sharing 👍
Yah it's very cool
I think there's 2 things: shortest path and current storage. If there's already stuff in one they might prefer this one to an empty one.
Other thing is they might calculate path when they pick it up so they see space somewhere and go there to realise there is no space anymore and recalculate from there. That would explain why they would continue on one side.
Another thing, The left and right might be due to where they picked it from. If you had only one tile of path leading to the pile that would remove that parameter.
Loved the store idea it was great.
Eger for it to star skye
I have a theory that it has to do with build order. and its a fragment of the coding. if you do the same experiments but when you place the empty warehouses, put them down in a random pattern and see if that affects the dispersion. I'd be curious to see the outcome
He talked about the build order and the order the stored item was selected.
@@Bama_Boy ah, I must have been distracted for that part. fair enough
Can you stack water pumps using overhangs, so the pump bringing up water goes into the tile next to where the above pump is collecting the water?
Not sure what you mean ...
I assume you mean the mechanical pumps? They tile one pumps discharges water in can't be the same one where the next one has the end of the straw, but if you offset them by one, I think you should be able to get a pumping tower.
@@SkyeStorme If you look at the mechanical water pumps in the fresh water dam, they are stacked in the same orientation at each vertical level. If you instead rotated the pumps 180 degrees each level, you should be able to stack them into a smaller footprint. You can then use the overhangs to support each pump as you build the stack.
6:18 I’m away from my computer so I can’t experiment but with the double helix could you run the stairs in the opposite direction and so the path goes ant clockwise up the helix, when looked at from above….
Why?
Don’t know, just curious
Yes, I think it perfectly works to have the direction of the stairs opposite to the direction of the platform helixes. As for why: It obviously has no functional difference, but I think it might make the whole thing look a bit less squishy, as you get reinforcements between the helixes from the stairs.
12 mins in.
They are loading the 1st and 3rd then 2nd because those are the closest storages via the pathways.
I didn't expect you to drop an f-bomb at the end like that. I had to do an instant replay to make sure I heard it correctly
???
@@SkyeStorme51:09
“Foxed” according to captions, but I see why you heard that! 😂😂
@@alaska2oregon oh my bad
Dear Skye, how can a woodchuck chuck wood?that is all.