There's a small error around 16:20: you claim that grappling is not technically an attack, but it is one according to the Player's Handbook p195. "When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can *use the Attack action to make a special melee attack*, a grapple" (emphasis mine). Otherwise, great video!
On the other hand, maybe something like blind fighting could be useful to have when going up against a mage who is relying on mirror image , perhaps especially when combined with the alert feat?.
I tried to comment the same re mirror image and linked a Sage Advice where Crawford states that Grapple, while considered a Special Attack, is an attack for rules purposes. Think I was deleted as spam cause of the link.
@@fortunatus1 Now that's a good point. Yeah, mirror image actually should work on grapple in that case. This probably requires some DM interpretation though.
I think the biggest problem with a mage hunter like this is that the best way to hunt a mage is to be a mage. Many people interested in "mage hunters" have been frustrated by the power that mages have, and making a sorcerer or wizard to take out sorcerers and wizards is more of a "if you can't beat them, join them." answer.
Actually arcane archers regularly do more than 20 damage and can blind the wizard or banish them or all sorts of cool things. Rogues with mage slayers also regularly do more than 20 damage. Rogues are great counters. Most damaging spells are dex saves.
@@conradkorbol We'll maybe Treantmonk will make a build that goes that direction. But all his biggest suggestions were arcane spells, namely Counterspell, Dispel Magic, and Silence. One of his major class feature selections was Subtle Spell, which is a Sorcerer feature.
@@halfmask3 I think you're right, him choosing a sorceror or bard seems very likely. Having the ability to cast multiple of these spells will probably mean a high level caster
@@halfmask3 oh I know, I just think he doesn’t look at leas optional classesz arcane archer sucks so he probably never even considered it. He also doesn’t trike rogue that much. Those are both like niche builds that are good at only killing wizards lol
I think you're right, but, to be fair, thematically one doesn't really choose to be a sorcerer. Depending on why one is a sorcerer, it's very reasonable one might want to kill other people with magic
A good spell I often use against mages is Maximillion's earthen grasp because it is a strength saving throw which restrains the enemy, and 9 times out of 10 the enemy mage is going to get restrained. The best part about it is that if they get out of the spell via teleportation you can move the hand again to put them in it.
Here's hoping we get one in the future. Probably a fighter and/or rogue subclass. Abilities that counter spells or magical abilities on reaction so you don't need Counterspell. Advantage against spell saves. The ability to end magical effects on a weapon hit. Maybe prevent Somatic or Verbal casting until the end of your next turn, etc
Non caster as in no spellcasting at all? Because then it’s basically any character that can deliver a giant nova from range, and hopefully you just down the mage in one round.
@@fortello7219 I could see battlemaster/rogue being decent. Precision attack can help you hit through the high ACs, sneak attack damage to try and get a lot of damage through to break concentration. Stealthing can help you not be targeted by spells, and they have good mobility. There's probably more you can do to optimize it, but that was my first idea.
I think a lot of people avoid counterspell because 'mage slayer' can be as thematic as it can be mechanical. Many concepts for mage slayers are inquisitor-like, or anti magic. If you have to go full caster, it spoils the flavour of such mage slayers. Mages can fight mages, some people want a non-mage who focuses on putting mages in their place.
Personally I think you could choose a casting class and flavor it more like an artificer who uses artifacts to take down mages. Something like I wouldn't exist if you mages didn't keep ruining everything for your drive for knowledge. I do understand though wanting to be completed sperate from magic. In that case I would probably go the damage route with something like a SS CBE fighter and focus fire the mage.
I played a bladesinger wizard with mage slayer once. Getting up and close against mages was very effective. Mainly because you could Counterspell, but if they're low on hp you can attack instead. Also the concentration thing helps if you're using booming blade.
Yeah, kinda disappointing. Beat spell casters by playing another full caster...no shit? Other option: Assassin/Battlemaster/Deep Stalker that kills an enemy mage (or anyone else really) in the surprise round.
When people hear "Mage slayer" most people would think "a non-caster that trained their entire lives to fight mages". It's a shame that we don't have sub-classes for martial classes that are specifically mage hunters
There are some things I wanted to add, a few of which are DM and campaign-dependent: - Some DMs will allow counterspell to work against the Subtle spell metamagic if the counterspeller is under the effects of Detect Magic. - You have to be able to see the target casting in order to counterspell. That means Devil's Sight may be a good option, and Blindsight from the Blind Fighting fighting style may be similarly effective. - Wizards often have monstrous guards between them and the party, especially constructs. So our character should ideally have a way to get around those creatures. Teleports should work for this, but having high mobility in general is also a plus. - Hiding will protect you from most bad things a wizard might try to do to you. If they have to guess your position then they're very likely to miss you entirely. - Not very practical, but use of the Glibness spell on charisma casters allows them to succeed on their counterspell attempts 100% of the time even when using lower level slots. I say this is impractical only because it's an 8th level spell With all of that in mind, a goblin warlock (using Tasha's to customize them to have a charisma bonus) could be a very effective mage killer. You'd want two levels of fighter (action surge to get around counterspell if needed, and blind fighting). You'd also want to take the feat Metamagic Adept and choose Subtle as one of the options, giving you two subtle spells per day (which is probably fine, since how often do you need to fight casters per day?). Eldritch Sight and Devil's Sight should be taken so that we always see ALL magic around us, no matter the conditions, as long as we're not concentrating on something besides Detect Magic (which becomes free with Eldrtich Sight). With this combination of sight features, it should be basically impossible for any spellcaster to do anything around us without us knowing about it and being able to subtle Counterspell or subtle Dispel Magic the effect as needed. Our weapons include use of obscurring effects like fog cloud, from within which we still have 10 feet of sight, can hide as a bonus action, and can blast the target with eldritch blasts and other spells. Action Surge will allow us to overwhelm enemy spell casters via action economy, which is a nice way to get around their attempts to counterspell us (assuming they even have that spell). Fiend pact would be particularly noteworthy for this character since Dark One's Own Luck, Fiendish Reslience, and Hurl Through Hell may all be extremely effective for fighting enemy mages. Hurl Through Hell, when we get it, will allow us to temporarily toss either the spellcaster or a troublesome minion of his out of the combat for a full round, and we only need to land one attack to do so (which we have multiple attempts to do if we cast eldritch blast or even Scorching Ray).
Just want to say that I love the idea of Detect magic countering subtle spell. I have a sorcerer BBEG who will be spamming subtle spell, so this is something they could gain knowledge of before they are finally ready to defeat him.
Based on all those requirements I’m leaning towards something like: Yuan-it Oath of Ancient’s Paladin 7/Divine Soul Sorcerer 5. Adv on saves, resistance on spell dmg, boost to saving thrown, Charisma is a primary save, as well as the 2d4 Favored by Gods, misty step always prepared from Oath, Dispel/Counter from Sorcerer, Subtle Spell as well from Sorcerer.
Try to imagine an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, with Warlock dip of Undying, u get the silence spell, u have also psionic spell (synaptic static, Tasha's mind whip and dissonant whispers). The 1st level of undying gives u "resistance to undead" EVEN against SPELL... So let's remember, on the monster manual who is a mage and also an undead? U got it the lich :')
I'm thinking some kind of Tasha's sorcerer with a 3 level dip into lore or eloquence bard for jack of all trades, access to silence/extra spells known, athletics expertise and cutting/unsettling words.
Yes divine soul but 2 levels of paladin and booming blade smite from darkness. If not darkness then spirit guardians, haven't tried silence though. Now that he can fly with 1 bonus action with no concentration he has even more control.
There is a difference between a character that has something little extra that might be useful against a mage, and a mage hunter. Both are absolutely fine, but if your backstory is one of a mage stealing your chest hair, and you really want revenge, you better become a proper mage hunter.
@@CufflinksAndChuckles i would argue it depends on the rules you play. if feats are not allowed (which we often forget is true for most tables confirmed by JC) then i would agree with you. If you are rolling stats and play a standard or low magic campaign then hell yea they are not bad.
@@geniumme2502 The build I would recommend for Shadow Monk only involves Sentinel feat. But if there are no feats allowed, the Monk wouldn't need Sentinel to get their strategy going. Just take a look at the build down below. I make a couple counterarguments against TM's criticisms, which I think need to be taken with a grain of salt for the most part. A strength and wisdom monk with proficiency in athletics can still do quite a lot. And if we're talking about the type of table being played, then I can equally make an argument that the DM might not have a spellcaster that's as optimized as TM described. Most spellcasters you'd go up against probably won't have incredibly high AC AND Constitution to the point that they're tankier than your party's own frontline.
@@CufflinksAndChuckles I made a long post somewhere here about TM creating an enemy before creating the character - it ends up being geared towards a very very specific thing - not generally well rounded which i find to be a huge concern - If that Mage you are hunting happens to have subtle spell you are screwed. If he can wildshape. same. if he has telekinetic, is an echanter a chronurgist or one of may others, hell if hes a summoner the beast will just shove you away. (and so would any allies of that mage) ... TM even told everyone that mages should nearly always have acrobatics proficiency (for his lv 8 encounter with a 14th level caster that would mean at the absolute minimum a +7 Acrobatics, possibly a +8 or 9 likely even with lucky to turn your advantage into super disadvantage if its necessary (and its kinda a 50/50 before that) .... Yea i think he created a strawman caster and then the solution for that one encounter and generalized it to "if the DM actually made custom mages which are optimized" ... if i made any of those mages bad kitty would have a bad time >.>
My favorite anti mage maneuvers are Eldridge knight action surging out two silence spells, because the first one is going to be counterspelled, or a theif rogue/ Eldridge knight making a cloud of flour with a bonus action, then casting silence (can’t counterspell what you can’t see, thank Tasha for blind fighting!) then casting silence and action surge grappling with expertise.
Was also going to call out the counter spell cheese. The reason most people don't go that route is it's cheesy /too easy /boring, and thematically speaking ime most mage slayers fluff wise would rather be martial than casters. I like how shadow monk checks pretty much every box for your requirements for a good mage killer. Especially once you tack on skill expert athletics. Fey touched with hex to give them disadvantage to resist grapple and you more damage plus misty step when not in darkness is also a solid option. And both are half feats, which can allow you to throw in alert to pretty much guarantee you go first. Easy reliable access to grapple and prone in silence, stealth to get the drop on them, and of course up to 4 chances to stun lock (which also ends concentration) and is pretty much never gonna have to worry about immunity to stun. I mean sure, one or two custom bad guys in a campaign MIGHT be specially built to give u hard time, but same goes for literally ANY build. The vast majority of casters and magic users in a given campaign are NOT going to just be shrugging off stun attempts, never mind the grapple prone in silence... But TM isn't totally biased against monks, we all know that ;p
How is counterspell cheese? It's literally the opposite of cheese? I'm going to assume you're saying the idea of a mage slayer is that the character doesn't use magic or isn't a full caster themselves (think templars from dragon age), and that going the spellcaster route is a bit of a cheat. Under that assumption, well the truth is WotC just hasn't published any good anti magic options, at least nothing that competes with what actual spells can do. That's the reality of it. However, you can certainly make ANY character at least effective against mages. There isn't anything available in official dnd content that is like Dragon Age templars or w/e though.
Lots of DMs tend to be wizard players. Lots of those wizard players tend to have high-level PC builds that they never get to play. Lots of those builds end up becoming liches, illithids, and witch-kings thrown against the party. And lots and lots of players have absolutely no clue how to deal with that. What I'm saying is, on behalf of my players, this is sorely needed, thank you.
This is very accurate, at least for me. All the builds I do that I know will never see the light of day end up as prevalent PCs, either baddies or even sometimes allies that tag along or do something else for the party.
Missed the School of Abjuration Wizard. I often call it the anti-spellcaster spellcaster. Improved Counterspell, magic resistance, a bubble of hit points that must be depleted before they need to make concentration checks, access to Sleet Storm and Silence spells. Multiclass a couple levels of fighter and throw up a Force Cage (non-concentration) and a Silence spell in the same turn. Get a simulacrum to create a counterspell chain in the event the enemy spellcaster tries to counterspell you.
Assuming that the CR and general level of difficulty remain the same... if you have a mage spec against a mage hunter to that degree, I would hope that the rest of your party would have an easier time against the mage. Otherwise, all you'll be doing is raise the CR and end up wiping the party.
How about a human, Mark of Sentinel, Star Druid. The race allows access to Counterspell. The dragon constellation allows you to never roll under a 10 on a Wisdom check. And dispel magic and counterspell are Wisdom checks for druids. They also have sleet storm and are pretty good controller overall, so you will be good at stopping mages without being less of a druid overall. The only caveat is that druids aren't the best at dealing damage, nor at teleporting. (Misty Step from Fey touched and Metamagic from feat)
Spell Breaker does have a second use-case where it can be better than Dispel Magic. Dispel Magic doesn't allow you to choose which spells you do or don't want to dispel. So if the party member you want to free from a debuff also has one or more buffs on them, say Haste or Mirror Image, those spells would get dispelled too. With Spell Breaker you only end the spell you want to end. Obviously not enough to make Arcane Clerics a "mage slayer", but certainly a welcome addition if you want to (help) protect your party from mages while still being a Cleric doing Cleric things (and some Wizard things at level 17).
I don't know if this was intentional or just a happy side effect, but I love the idea of doing theory/thought process videos on Friday and following them up with a build on Monday. I think it really encourages us to try our hands at a build over the weekend and compare on Monday. I know I am working on my own mage slayer now, at least.
Without subtle spell, can we cast a 60ft range spell against enemy counterspell? Easy! Just move out of 60ft range or enemy vision to cast the spell as ready action. Then we can move within range to release the spell during the same turn! Because we are just releasing the spell that has been casted, the enemy cannot counterspell.
That does require concentration, which isn't a problem if the spell in question is your concentration spell for the fight, and your reaction, which means you cannot counterspell them either.
@@predwin1998 If your spell can CC enemy caster, then you don't need to worry about counterspell later. If you are fighting against multiple enemy casters, your counterspell can be countered anyway.
@@Zynovus True enough. Though most spells that CC a caster (or anyone really) to the point where they can't cast spells anymore tend to require a saving throw of some sort. Most spells without saving throws tend to hinder movement or sight moreso than the actions available to the target, as far as I'm aware. The only 60 feet spell that reliably CC's a caster that I can think of is Maze, though I might be missing something. That said, your idea is valid, and my reply might have come across more bluntly than intended. The points I mentioned are limitations, but they do not invalidate your idea.
@@predwin1998 Thanks for your input. I think every task will has a price. The counterspell is one of great spells in game. If we need to cast a 60ft spell that cannot be countered, the reaction triggering ready action is the cheapest price to do so. Will it guarantee 100% CC the enemy caster? Of course not. It's a chance anyway. In 5e, it's very common to buy a chance in the cost of class feature or feat choice. My idea here is just to offer a way with possibly lowest cost.
For things like this I would run it by your dm first. They might not like the cheese of casting just out of range and walking in. Personally if I was dming I don't think I would allow it unless you had counterspell yourself
My personal mage hunter build is a fighter eldritch knight 3/bladesinger 17. I use a Drow, but others work well. Fighter gets us con saves, action surge, and blind fighting style amongst other things. Eldritch Knight gives us a couple utility abilities, but it also gives as a ton more cantrips and the ability to have shield, absorb elements, and magic missile always prepared. Like you implied, the mage slayer feat is a bit of a trap pick and our reaction will be needed and better spent primarily for either counterspell or defensive wards. Metamagic adept for subtle spell, war caster, and try to get your Cleric friend to cast silence in a ring of spell-storing for you. I pick Drow for flavor (Eilistraee follower, yada yada) and for mechanics drive you get great darkvision and some great free spells. I also try to grab Drow high magic if I have good rolled stats because not having to wait 10 minutes for detect magic is a game changer (and a free counterspell!)
It's worth noting, I think, that most "Mage Hunter" character concepts implicitly assume you yourself AREN'T a mage. That is, that you're ideologically opposed to arcane magic rather than just a mercenary who is optimized for taking down enemy mages. By things you say, this will likely be a sorcerer taking out their "own kind", which is definitely a different flavor than combating magic from the outside.
Straight abjuration wizard with metamagic adept for some subtle spellcasting when needed is a pretty good mage slayer, if you want to keep it simple or can't multiclass. Also, I liked the way this video examined the building blocks of what you want when optimising this build, I wouldn't mind some more general videos about what to keep in mind when trying to optimise a character.
Since none of my players are wizards I made wizards a hated class in my campaign world and created a wizard villain that ticks all of the "Mages made to kill PC" checklist you listed. I am glad I met those requirements without having to watch any of your videos beforehand :-D. The main feature I made with this wizard is they have no damage dealing cantrips, so spell slot resources are going to be a problem in a long fight, of course the party still has to find ways around their control effects and outlast them before they can really get control of the battlefield.
If I may, I'd like to introduce you to a build. Thrown Weapon fighting + Net + Sharpshooter Or Crossbow Expert Or Gunner A net is a special ranged weapon with a range of 5/15 feet A creature that gets hit with a net is restrained until it is freed, so no somatic spells. It's a dc 10 strength check, there is NO saving throw And you can only make 1 attack on you turn if you use a net. Sharpshooter allows you to use it at up to 15 feet as it is a range weapon Gunner or Crossbow Expert allow you to use it within 5 feet as it IS a range weapon attack. Thrown weapon fighting allows you to draw and throw a thrown range weapon as a single action on your turn. If you run a class that allows you to give your bonus action to another character, you can still get that same damage off. Just avoid slashing damage as that will cut the net and free the large or smaller creature that you have restrained
I just watched both your videos and I would surmise that a Shadow Monk isn't as bad as you think it is, but still only slightly worse than your Mage Slayer build at getting the job done. My build is: Firbolg (+2 Wisdom, +1 Strength). Assuming a standard array, I would give them 15 Strength, 14 Wisdom, and 13 Dexterity. I would spend my first ASI on Sentinel and the rest on STR and then WIS, allowing me to have 20 STR and 20 WIS by level 19. I also chose Athletics and Stealth as my proficiencies. This allows me to have great grappling checks while at the same time having a 19 Ki Save DC, which is as high a DC as one can have in D&D. Optionally, you can also use an ASI to get the Alert feat for better initiative. So, imagine this: The strategy can be used as early as level 5 and scales well into the latter stages of play. First turn, I rely on my Dexterity to get a higher initiative than the caster. This would be aided with the Alert feat. For my full action, I cast Silence on the caster. As a bonus action, I cast Hidden Step to turn invisible and gap-close as much as I can to the caster. I'm able to use Silence and Hidden Step in one turn because Hidden Step is a spell-like ability and does not count as a spell. In the next video, you mention that it would be easier indoors to cast Silence because of the nooks and crannies of something like a dungeon. Your words, not mine. Outside, I'd have to be at least 10th level to cast Silence without being Counterspelled before gap-closing in the same turn. On the caster's turn, they can't move because I have advantage on my opportunity attack and Sentinel. I can even try to stun them with Stunning Strike, but I don't need it to keep them in the zone of Silence. On my next turn, I can do any combination of Stuns and/or Grapples as my Attack action and then use Flurry of Blows on my Bonus Action to get in as much stuns as I can to stun-lock or grapple-lock the caster every turn. At the very least, the Silence + Sentinel + Hidden Step/Shadow Step mobility would do very well as a way to keep Silence on the caster without needing to do much on the monk's full action. Another strategy I might use is to just use Shadow Step as a Bonus Action, giving me advantage on 1 attack that turn. And instead of casting Silence, I will either try to stun you twice or grapple you twice. If I'm lucky, I can stun and grapple you in one turn. And if I'm close enough, I don't need to use the Bonus Action to gap close, and instead just use it for Flurry of Blows. A monk has options in how they are able to lock down a caster when they have Sentinel and Hidden Step. Regarding your thoughts on Shadow Step, a light cantrip and a torch would require at least a bright light radius of 20 feet. A Shadow Step would take me at most twenty feet away from them, allowing me to walk the rest of the way. And if for some reason Shadow Step can't be used (on broad daylight or a well-lit indoor zone), Step of the Wind is still a great option for sticking to a caster. By level 5, a monk has Extra Attack (for two grapple opportunities), 80 feet of movement with Step of the Wind and possibly 100 feet of movement with Shadow Step. Shadow Step also gives me advantage on my first attack until the end of the turn. But if I don't think that will work, I can use the Firbolg's Hidden Step, which gives me Invisibility until my next action, as I had mentioned in the strategy above. Regarding your thoughts on stunning strike, I agree that an optimized mage can have a high AC (Mage Armor + Shield), and it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to see one have an AC of 20+ in the middle stages of play. It also wouldn't be out of the ordinary to find a mage that is optimized to have 20 Consitution. But by this point, I'd imagine that a mage that has 20 Consitution and 20+ AC at the same time would have to be a high enough CR where the monk's later skills would be online. And besides, if a monk decides that they want to do four attacks with Stunning Strike in the first or second turn would still have a chance at locking down a mage. Finally, if the monk decides they want to be a strength monk, their attacks and grapples would be pretty effective. Your argument is "if the mage is built effectively." I think it is safe to assume that most mages the party will come across won't have high AC and high CON consistently until later levels. Sure, there might be some set-piece mage encounters early on, but surely not ALL of the mages I can come across as a level 5 monk will be tankier than my other party members... not until at least the higher stages of play. I think it's safe to assume that with my build's diversity of gap-closing and lock-down options, I stand a good chance as any to lockdown a mage at a consistent enough basis without having to sacrifice too many things. You used the example of a 5th level monk with +6 to hit going up against a 20+ AC spellcaster (not including shield and magical items) and enough CON to upset him... In what scenario barring a BBEG is this level of "optimization" appropriate? I understand that you're preparing for the worst case scenario, but I think a Shadow Monk can be decent enough to get the job done. At the very least, I would hope that I would at least be higher than level 5 before my monk meets a mage of this calibre. It is also possible that if the mage is putting all his points on Constitution, then his Spellcasting modifier is not that high, giving a monk ample space to keep repeating the strategy until one stun or grapple comes through in the zone of Silence. And then, there's that one Sage Advice where Jeremy Crawford ruled that the Stun Condition could necessitate an automatic failed grappling check on the part of the mage, according to RAI. However, I do concede that not every DM is going to rule the game the way that Crawford would. Regarding your thoughts on Evasion... Your Mage Slayer build can't protect a party from that many fireball spells any more than a monk can assuming your Mage Slayer is within the effects of their own Silence spell, which you indicated was your intent at turn 1. The difference between your Mage Slayer and my Shadow Monk is that I can at least survive one fireball if I didn't first lock them down in the first place. Unlike your Mage Slayer, my monk can eat up a fireball pretty well. And besides, I think the idea behind a Mage Slayer is locking them down in the first place, so Evasion isn't even in the strategy. It's just icing on the cake. I agree with your thoughts on Stillness of Mind. I agree that Diamond Soul is pretty late. But I would argue that a party meeting enough optimized spellcasters on a consistent enough basis would probably mean that they are already late enough into their level progression to experience this. I would also argue that most of the spellcasters a monk will meet AREN'T optimized in such a way unless the DM is running a setting where every spellcaster is a BBEG or a set-piece encounter, which is unlikely. I'm not saying that a party won't meet such a villain before 14th level. I just think it is unreasonable to expect to rate a subclass based on an unlikelihood versus what is more likely to happen.
I've come to realize that the approach of character building is very different when you are building it for home games and a DM running his own world vs an AL game or someone running a published adventure. The entire foundation of assumptions are different concerning party make up, DMing style, and magic items available.
I'd like to see those optimised npc mages as well, I suppose building one that provides a good challenge for adventurers is different from building one that is good against monsters.
if your playing in high levels, a 15th level bard who cast glibness cant roll lower then a 15 on a charisma check, their counter spell includes a charisma check, pair that with jack of all traits adding half your profiency bonus so +3, and then at that level you can expect maxed out charisma or near maxed out if you multiclass so at least a +3. you aren't always going to be fighting a mage so save your 8th level slot for those cases and you can never fail a counter spell even when cast at 3rd level. if you want to use the mage slayer feat take 1 level of hex blade and 4 levels of paladin. you can shut down any spell either through counter spell or by dealing massive damage through smites to force those difficult concentration checks. you also have a vast amount of spells that can combat mages such as tashas hideous laughter, darkness, etc. id even go swords bard to focus on that melee bard mage slayer
Hiding and breaking line of sight is also good for avoiding counterspell. Hide as an action bonus action quicken spell. Sometimes you only need to move around a corner or drop to the floor behind a table. Also manage your distancesyou gotta be within 60' to counter spell. It's very fun to start your turn within 60 feet and then move back cast spell move forward. My mage hunter build has been a sorcerer for a while. She didn't start as a yuanti pureblood but when she became one the benefits made it obviously the better choice.
it's weird because he assumes the enemy mage is always going to have medium armor, shield, shield spell, HIGH con saves, full casting, high DC and hit bonuses but not subtle spell mm to ignore silence, counterspell, etc
My personal Mage Slayer build is Paladin/Divine Soul Sorcerer. It has access to counterspell, dispel magic, silence, misty step, shield, mirror image, and spirit guardians. It also has access to metamagic. A particularly useful one is subtle spell, allowing you to cast counterspell subtly so that the enemy mage can't counterspell your counterspell. Also, subtle spell allows you to cast spells with vocal components while inside an area of Silence, allowing you to grapple an enemy mage inside Silence while retaining your ability to cast spells. It has good burst damage with smites to help break concentration. If you go 6 levels into Paladin, then you get great saving throws from Aura of Protection. If you feel spicy, you can go Oath of Ancients for that warding aura. Access to heavy armor allows you to make one of your primary stats strength, which is useful for grappling. I feel truly sorry for any mage that faces this monstrosity.
I'm currently shaping a Fighter (later to be multiclassed into War Cleric) towards being an effective anti-mage/magic build. Definitely going to be using these points for that.
What i'd do is a valor bard 6 (athletics expertise at 2, warcaster at 4) -> fighter 2 (unarmed fighting) -bard 8 (metamagic feat) >bard to 18, might dip sorc instead of the feat if i fight more than 1 scary mage a day. Race would be either satyr or Yuan-ti If those are banned, as they should be, I'd play a deep gnome (mini magic resistance) or an orc (for agressive). Play style: turn 1: get to the mage,weather by dispelling a crowd control effect (jack of all trades helps a bit) or if you go first using a teleport or orcs aggressive trait. (I assume a bonus action and most of the movement was used here) You then use the attack action to grapple the mage, you get 2 attemps and you have expertise, if the first attempt goes well, shove prone or smack them in the face. Action surge and cast silence (with subtle spell) centered on the mage. Following turn if you dipped sorc for extra sorc points then cast thasha's hideous laughter (using subtle spell) to Incapacitate the mage, and hope they die by turn 3.
Archmage is the official "enemy". A lvl18 wizard... with +1 Concentration save and 15 AC. Mage Slayer seems like a pretty good feat. if you just inflict a lot of spread-out damage (like Damage at the beginning of the round, while attacking and at the end of the round). If the target hast to roll 4 concentration checks at disadvantage even with +7, they are about to fail sooner or later.
I found that a Rune Knight Devine Sorcerer Aaracockra combo works really well against one wizard, you bonus action Giants Might rush in advantage grapple, Action Surge Subtle Spell Silence then bully. This combo with Enlarge also helps with grounding dragons.
I would build a sorcadin for that purpose. Probably just 2 or 6 levels paladin and the rest in shadow sorcerer with subtle spell and quickened spell metamagic. If i go paladin 6, i would choose the oath of conquest, which gives "Armor of Agathas" and "Spiritual Weapon". AoA is not really useful against spellcasters but against melee opponents, and spiritual weapon is a nice ongoing bonus action, which can pummel the mage while you grapple him. The Channel Divinity "Guiding Strike" helps to overcome high AC. We also get "Aura of Protection" to help us against all saving throws. Shadow Sorcerer can use his sorcery points to cast darkness and can even see through it, we can also summon dire wolves to help us chasing a fleeing mage or pummel him and at level 14th we can teleport through darkness and dim light with a bonus action. If you really want to pummel a mage with this built, you quicken "Hold Person", if he uses "Counterspell", you just use yours, and if he fails you use your attack action to attack with advantage, if you still can't hit him, which is unlikely, you still have "Guiding Strike" to get a +10 to hit. A hit on a paralyzed creature is an automatic crit, so you just use your highest spell slot and divine smite his ass. I think this build is generally really strong, but could be flavored as an Inquisitor-like Mage Hunter who swore an Oath to catch all evil mages. His sorcerer powers could be explained through his backstory. Why does he hate mages so much? Maybe he was killed by one which awakened his innate shadow sorcery. I think feats that would work well with this build are "Metamagic Adept" and "War Caster" if you use a shield. "Skill Expert" is also a great feat, which you can use to get expertise on athletics to make it even harder to escape your grapple.
So I actually had this thought a few months ago and I think Eldritch Knights work great here mostly when they hit level 14~15 but pretty well before than too. Variant Human and Grab Fey Touched to get Misty Step and your choice of Bless or Gift of Alacrity Have high Str, Int, and Con in that order. Weapon would be Greatsword(for damage) or Glaive (Polearm Master). Spells I would take are Booming Blade, Mind Sliver, and Lightning Lure, Shield, Absorb Elements, Hideous Laughter, Darkness, Mind Whip, Binding Ice(new addition), Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Slow. Feats I would take are Tough and Shadow Touched and Polearm Master if you chose Glaive all other ASI should be allotted to Max out Str and Int which is why I grabbed Tough. So you Can turn Invisible(Shadow Touched) and Darkness prevents being targeted, teleport with Misty Step and Arcane Charge, cause opponents to roll low on your spell saves with Eldritch Strike and Mind Sliver, Mind Whip and Slow reduces what the Mage can do on their turn and prevents Counterspells and Shield, Bless(if taken) and Slow increases your likelihood to hit, Gift of Alacrity(if taken) is great boost to intiative to get start throwing debuffs, Shield and Absorb Elements Mitigate damage taken, Hideous Laughter and Binding Ice keeps the Mage locked down and only able to teleport away, Lightning Lure can pull the mage to you and deal damage if needed, Booming Blade is an to deal high burst damage to try and break concentration, Action Surge allows you to cast two spells per turn so if they do counter one spell cast it again, and one final note make scrolls of spell you know that way the few spell slots you do have are not as big of a problem. Also for simplicities sake I'd like to crunch damage number real quick 2d6+str (5) averages about 12 damage you get three attacks per turn assuming the mage has been rebuffed by Slow of Mind Whip you will hit about 2 out of three attacks that means average melee damage per round is 24. Assuming the Mage is the same level as us and rolls average on hit points and has a +4 Con we are looking at about 120 hp that means we will take them down in about 5 turns. If you made it this far thank you for reading my thoughts and please give any advice you can. Thank you
Spell Breaker is more useful than that. Using Dispel Magic will also remove buffs that a Cleric could give to the party, while Spell Breaker let them choose what effect to remove. It was an oversight talk about how the abilities interact with a party and forget how the mage slayer itself interacts with the party too.
16:20 grappling and shoving are actually called "special attacks" (phb 195 )* and mirror image responds to attacks rather than attack rolls or hits, so mirror image should work against them. *crawford says that "special attack" refers to it not being a weapon or spell attack www.sageadvice.eu/2018/11/21/so-grapple-a-special-attack-is-not-an-attack/
Agreed, but its odd because its an attack that can't hit, and mirror image says hitting is what dispels an image, so grappling may be strictly worse against mirror image.
Definitely seems like a paladin would be a good choice for this, because they hit hard and have access to some pretty useful abilities, also it'd be pretty easy for them to grapple and smites would make it difficult for mages to maintain concentration
I think mister slayer is very very good because the counter spell they get can’t be counter spelled so it’s Guaranteed and the save bonus is great and once you get to level 15 your unstoppable trading an action for a reaction and not needing spells on your own turn means a spellcasters can’t possibly get the same value. In addition with the mage slayer fest every reaction attack still gets a bonus from the third level feature because it’s once per tune so add that with hunters mark and forcing the caster to have disadvantage on con checks you can pretty consistently get 20 damage or so and if you end up using crossbow expert and sharpshooter you can even do 30
Abjurer grappler or Rogue Soul knife as damage + homing strikes and a fighting style breaks conc. or Phantom for saved, no hit roll damage and ghosting past defences !
Oath of ancient paladin also has misty step, giving him good mobility. But I still agree that just having counter spell and dispel magic is still better. Which is why the best mage slayer is a sorcadin (or, as I call it the paladorcerer)!!!
First feature you want is the silence spell, then the first feat you want is sentinel. There are no escape spells in the PHB that doesnt require V component. So multi-class Totem Bear Barbarian/War priest/trickster rogue. Barbarian for proficient in con saves, good armor, multiattack/rd, and farther speed. priest for silence spell. rogue for sneak attack and sneaking up. Do Rogue Trickster for casting Misty Step. Use barbarian wreckless attack for advantage on attacks so you can sneak attack every round with a scimitar.
Eh. U lose out on a lot of ability score increases by multiclassing so much then on top of that ur grabbing a feat all for sentinel where an optimal wizard is gonna have 22+ ac. They likely would just walk out let u do ur opportunity attack since ur likely to miss then cast spells outside the silence aoe.
Counterspell can really seem like a waste of a spell pick if you only encounter two hostile spellcasters between level 6 and the end of the campaign at level 12.
I’ve got a build for a Barbarian mage slayer that is specifically meant for closer quarters beat downs of mages. 3 levels bear totem barbarian/17 levels psi warrior fighter. Choose to make him a war forged far traveler who came from an ancient mage empire that fell long ago. He was designed as a mage hunter/ executioner that would accompany a state sanctioned wizard on missions to kill those who where rebelling against the empire. He uses mage slayer cause he is a melee fighter through and through. Bu I did consider give him some swashbuckler rogue levels just for the extra mobility he would get from cunning action but I think fast movement and the mobile feat fork for that, and I would lose out on the latter abilities I wanted. What do y’all think I should do to improve him???
The real problem lies in the fact that mages are not simply mages but a range of playstyles. Like, an bladesinger charges the enemy and fights in close quarter combat with ridiculous AC and Temporary HP stackt (like false life wich as a reminder can be restored any time) and multible other enchantmens on him self (tensers transformation) so that he can at last fight on equal footing with any other martial class. An necromancer or conjurer on the other hand will let his minions rush in as an expandable source with gives him an the advantage on action economy and he will boost them or give his enemy disabiletating effects to win the fight. And last but not least the famous "blaster" archetype which relies on his distanz to his enemies and as well as huge damaging spells. All these archetypes have very different strategies, taktiks and fighting styles and it requier diffrent strategies, taktiks and fighting styles to face them. For example, can you close the distance to your blaster type enemy before he can shoot you down or can you reach him in the first place if he can fly and teleport? Or how you deal with a conjurers swapping ability and his willing conjurations with which he can swap places an unlimited number of times and be in every spot on the map? In favor of simplicity let's forget that every respectable wizard has if not his own tower at least a cave or some retreat, which is heavily enchanted to ward of every intruder. And let's also ignore death cheating methodes, spells like "Clone", "Contingency" with a teleport or healing spell or that you have fought the hole time a simulacrum. I believe we all have watched enough of treantmonk's content that i dont have to spell all the OP possibilities and versatility with which a high level wizard can fight his enemies. I love his series to wizards and all the stuff around that. So how do you counter that if you are not a wizard or spellcaster yourself. How do you fight a reality bending force of magic? Someone who travels planes and shadow dimensions in research of magic that not only bends but outright breaks the laws of nature? Someone who traps the weakminded in endless ilusions with a flick of his fingers? You have to be not only a strong, tough and dextres but also intelligent and strong minded to go against a wizard and be at least able to withstand his spells long enough so that you can get to your turn. So you optimize and what now? How do you win the fight? The answer: you don't. You can optimize to go eventuell against a specific type of wizard but thats it and the fight would also be tough and the victory would not be shure. But there is a solution... There is a mage slayer witch kills his target 100% of the time. A mage slayer so feared that no mage dares to set foot outside his tower and has to send his minions to do his tasks insted. I believe the best mage slayer is the 1 round surprise kill build that you can find everywhere when you look to optimize for most damage in a turn. You know what i mean... the Assassin rogue fighter sharpshoter multiclass. The Ultimate Assassin v2.0 - The Deadliest D&D 5e Archer Supernova Build Ever! ( ua-cam.com/video/UY-r2Z5gcME/v-deo.html ) or "Shadow Blade Assassin: 1000+ damage build. Adventure League" (ua-cam.com/video/5eJDWG0UlsM/v-deo.html) The only way to beat a wizard is to dont let him do anything. PS: Mask your traces and make hell of a lot sure they can´t track you down by any means. (like the Spell Nondetection, easily obtained from the svirfneblin Racial Feat)
I think you kinda overlooked ensnaring strike (strenght save), protection from energy and misty step (for closing distance) on oath of ancients, along with smite for breaking concentration.
I always liked the portrait and skill set of the Witchhunter class in The Elder Scrolls. No armor proficiency, but lots of speed, agility, and skills with a bow.
How i think this can be build: Race: Satyr for magic resistance + changing the ability score if needed INT Class: 17lvl Abjurer Wizard + 3 Armourer Artificer, if you want more spell.. or 10lvl Abjurer + 10lvl Armourer for more infusions and others good stuffs CHA Class: 17lvl Aberrant Mind Sorcerer + 3lvl Paladin/Hexblade, for the subtle spell Counter.. or 6lvl Aberrant Mind + 14lvl Paladin/Hexblade for more combat focused FEAT: Fey Touched or Telekinetic as the half feat + Sentinel
The Mage Slayer I’m currently playing is an Arcane Trickster with Find Familiar and the Mage Slayer feat. A sneaky Booming Blade with Advantage cuts through the AC and damage problem. I’m also going to be getting Mobile to Dash through any difficult terrain the mage tries to create.
My favorite build echo knight 3 arcane trickster XX. Take vuman ritual caster wizard at lvl1 for find familar. 1st level fighter w blindfight. Lvls 2 thru 5 as rogue/arcane trickster taking mobility at 5th lvl.
@@adverseflower9551 you can but darkness is easily countered. Better opportunities are available with concentration free full obscurement. Pyrotechnics works for this or if you can get your hands on an eversmoking bottle your familiar can lay down the smokescreen for you.
@@jeffdietz630 With Pyrotechnics you do need to worry about the opportunity cost of having a fire around to cast it. Also, since you're getting Ritual Caster for Find Familiar, what's your lvl 1 non illusion/enchantment spell?
@@adverseflower9551 you have your familiar carry the flame source for pyrotechnics. You can have it drop it and use pyrotechnics on it. For your 1st level non illusion I like fog cloud. I also like use of silent image to create an illusory fog cloud to use for ranged attacks. It has the benefit of not causing allies within the illusory fog bank to be obscured. As long as the enemy doesn't interact i.e. physically move into it it remains a viable illusion giving total obscurement advantages and is mobile for 10 min duration. (A very strong case can be made for eldritch adept feat taking misty visions i.e. silent image at will) Finally, hiding yourself in a minor illusion box/Boulder allows you the ability to manifest your echo to deliver your (sneak) attacks without reprisal in most instances.
I think the actual build will either be a Lore Bard (CHA saves + 6th level secrets Counterspell and Dispel Magic), or an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer (All of that + subtle spelling)
Another factor that can be taken into consideration to counter mages would be to use stealth. Since most spells require the caster to even see the target in the first place. But a stealth build would likely have to contest the enemy's likely high perception, also as said in this video "The dm is making a mage built to counter players" they may give them proficiency in perception or even the alert feat to shut down their strategy, the environment may be bright, also the really high AC that you explicitly mentioned to make an attack that bit harder to pull of (Lets not forget many creatures have darkvision, though Gloomstalkers deal with this). Worth noting regardless
I mean...if you’re throwing a monster with a 25 AC against a 5th level party, that seems more like the DM just deciding that martial characters don’t get to have fun rather than an inherent problem with the shadow monk build. It would be like deciding that your monsters have proficiency in every save, counterspell, an anti-magic cone, evasion, the lucky feat, and legendary resistances. I guess casters would be less effective, but it seems unsporting.
My bet is divine soul sorcerer x/oath of glory paladin 3-6 -Silence through divine soul -Counterspell, dispel and misty step through sorcerer -High 1 hit damage through divine smite -Subtle spell and quicken spell metamagics. -Advantage on grappling through channel divinity -Find steed if you take paladin higher for greater mobility. Rune knight is also a workable alternative to paladin since action surge and making yourself big are both brilliant, but you aren’t advancing your spellcasting progression at all, and you are also not going to have brilliant options for dealing a tonne of damage in 1 hit if you need damage to break their concentration.
This is my idea for anti-mage. Gnome Rouge/Barbarian for advantage in almost all saving throws. Go with expertise in stealth and slight of hand. Go with arcane trickster for invisibility and maybe eventually dispel magic or counter spell. Then, slight of hand their spell components or arcane focus. Finally, rage and grapple them and then stab as they are grappled and therefore you get advantage. They got no spells and are fairly damaged AND grappled first round.
My guess b4 the video is that it's going to be a sorcerer bard multiclass based on bards getting the best counterspell possible, needing to avoid being counterspelled and TM favoring casters. Edit: oooo....I think I might be right after watching!
Going through the list of criteria for mage slaying, my first impulse every time Chris went to a new topic was to think of how a Zealot Barbarian that was too angry to die would check most of that list off except for getting out of things like a Force Cage. The other obvious exception being the need to spend some attention on bolstering your Wisdom saves so you don't become an asset for the Mage against your party (Poor Yasha). But I generally think the best mage slayer is another mage that's better prepared for the engagement. Probably something like your Githyanki War Wizard/Battle Master build, as the War Wizard toys (Arcane Deflection, Power Surge, Durable Magic) will probably help significantly more than being a Bladesinger. I pretty much already envisioned that build as a Darth Vader type, so the idea of hunting down mages feels like Vader doing some Jedi purge stuff. I still want to play that build whenever my DM gets around to our next game, but I'm curious if you have any suggestions for updates in the wake of Tasha's.
I think the most important thing to have is a good wisdom save. If the enemy mages are optimized, you're looking at hold person as soon as level 3. They might up cast it against the whole party. That's a very, very big deal. So Resilient Wisdom should be included at some point, preferably immediately unless you have advantage on wisdom saving throws for some reason, then you can pick it up later.
That end sounded like "i'll be making a mage slayer next time , aka a Paladin Oath of Watchers" I bet Custom Lineage for Fey touched for charisma, so we start with 18 charisma, go level 2 or level 6 into hexblade based on how much we want to delay extra attack get metamagic adept feat at level 4 (or 5) max charisma at level 9 what do we cover? solid support spells and damage in a normal combat misty step from fey touched solid charisma save against force cage and banishment counterspell and dispell magic after level 10 good channel divinity to protect allies from the most devestating spells a mage has high enough strength and athletics to grapple divine smites to drastically increase the mage's concentration spell (if the player deems it necessary) blindsight to ignore mirror image
Waiting impatiently for the next video now. After a re-listen, my money is on a Sorcerer/Rogue/Bard multiclass. - Silence spell? Check. - Good Grappling? Check. - Boosted Counterspell and Dispel Magic checks? Check. - Teleports? Check. - Charisma save proficiency? Check. - Fast movement? Check. - Subtle metamagic? Check. - Spells that break concentration? Check. - Super high single attack damage? Check. - Good at Murder? Check. - Versatile for non-mage combat? Check.
I think something you miss with spellbreaker vs dispel magic is that dispel magic on someone ends all the spells on them, harmful or positive, so if you have a buffed paladin who failed a save, you may want to heal them and end the bad effect, but keep the buffs. I also think the mass dispelling factor is better than you make it out to be, as most parties will have everyone end up taking a little damage, even if that damage is focused on certain characters, so you are likely to be able to end effects on any memeber of the party
divine soul sorcerer seems like an obvious pick but hear me out: wild magic sorcerer. you can use tides of chaos to gain advantage on your counterspell check if you need it. you also get bend luck, which can help allies on nasty saving throws. you miss out on silence but you can pick that up with at least a 3 level dip into fathomless warlock, which also nets you pact of the talisman which can again, add to your counterspell checks. pick up eldritch mind and another invocation of your choice, maybe agonizing blast so you can do sorlock things when you're not fighting mages.
Any sorcerer dipped with Hexblade 2, get Hexblade’s Curse + Magic Missile, Subtle Spell + Counterspell, Darkness + Devil’s Sight, Dispel Magic, Silence, and a couple of teleports. Add Alert, Lucky, and Resilient along the way. There, solved.
Nice video! Without getting too far into optimizing, I have always felt that eldritch knight makes a good basic chassis for an "anti-mage" character. Looking forward to your next
Not sure how to lore it together, perhaps similar to Sentry from Heroes of Aerois, some sort of ancient fey adjacent machine of order. More stonehenge than steampunk. Yuanti pureblood ancients paladin 6/ clockwork soul sorcerer 14 Advantage on all magic saves +Cha Resist spell damage Smite for concentration breaking dmg Subtle metamagic Reaction "warcaster advantage" canceling Counterspell, Entangleing, and movement spells
Just started the video, so here's my guess / shot at it - Bladesinger with Misty Step, Counterspell, Dimension Door, and Mage Slayer feat. Though I wish I had Silence and Quickened Spell, so maybe multiclassed with Divine Soul sorcerer for 3 level dip.
After having seen the video - yeah, I did not take into account the high AC. 😅 But I think you have a particular build in mind to counter. A subtle spell sorcerer may be great against a bladesinger, but a bladesinger is great against a subtle spell sorcerer. So I'm looking forward to see how you counter different mage builds with your mage slayer(s).
Another bonus to bladesinger wizard is that they have decent melee attacks so you could [eventually] cast antimagic field and put that melee attack of yours to use. Maybe throw in the sentinel feat and 3 levels of arcane trickster levels [a little sneak attack, athletics expertise, cunning action, + some spell progression].
Going to hazard a guess and say satyr race for magic resistance and fey type, so humanoid-only spells like hold person won't work on you. Aberrant mind sorcerer for the psionic sorcery and metamagics, ancients paladin 7 for the 2 auras, and maybe fighter 2 for action surge
It's not something I had thought about before. But as soon as I clicked on it, my first thought was "High Saves... Dex, Con and Wis, mostly." Second was "Counterspell". I'm no advanced player, but, as you said, how could anyone make a Witch Hunter and not have Counterspell??
Taking guesses on his build based on what he said here. I am betting he goes against his normal halfling love and goes Satyr, Divine soul sorcerer/hex blade.
I’ve been waiting for this build ever since Treantmonk said wizards were his favourite build, in other words “forever”. Need a way to “challenge” those highly optimised pesky PC spellcasters that “someone” has been bandying around 😥 Thanks as always and really looking forward to your next vid. 👍
One of the places where Silence really shines is against clerics/priests. Every spell on the cleric's spell list has the verbal component so this spell is devastating to divine casters. You need to be able to limit their movement so they can't walk out of the area, though
If you’re looking for a number crunched optimal mage slayer (which you said you do) this is all true. However, mage slayers often have a hatred or extreme dislike of magic and in those cases there aren’t a lot of options. Monk works ok for non-magical mage slayers but Wizards didn’t give many options for a traditional mage slayer :/
and what we will get is probably a multiclass between sorc hexblade and pala. Sorlockadin! the answer to all things. welp that or a grappling build (which i would really not enjoy if thats the case but i dont think so)
I was thinking Aberrant or Shadow. Aberrant get even more ability to subtle spell, but shadow sorcerer gets basically ALL the goodies the shadow monk gets
Two tactics I was expecting: counter a spellcaster by overwhelming them. Counterspell is a reaction, so hitting them twice on a single turn us a reliable way to get past that effect. For this reason a fighter 2 dip, maybe 3 for eldritch Knight can be very helpful. Second is simply beating them in the initiative. Spellcasters need time to set up, so hitting them early is a must in my opinion, so high Dex builds and alert are very helpful. Lastly, bit wierd spending a whole half a video ragging on shadow monk, and then pretty much ignoring the good aspects: mobility, initiative, good saves for dexterity and wisdom, darkness is also undersold in my opinion, sure there're spells which don't need sight but ones which effect the action economy often do. You could certainly do a lot worse, not to mention your standard for a mage slayer is very different from the usual definition?
For a oneshot I used a Shadow Sorcerer as a Mage Hunter. It is very good and fun, but fun to hear the oneshot was in the underdark (no shadows). Worst scenario ever hahaha
Sounds a lot like the Tabaxi Pally 2/Swords Bard X, Azorius Functionary build I've been harping on for months. It covers 5/6 of those points well, only really lacking Subtle Spell, which could be easily made up via Metamagic Adept feat.
There's a small error around 16:20: you claim that grappling is not technically an attack, but it is one according to the Player's Handbook p195. "When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can *use the Attack action to make a special melee attack*, a grapple" (emphasis mine). Otherwise, great video!
Technically correct. I think what TM meant is that it doesn't go against AC.
Yes, but no. It doesn't target AC. it's a strength check and I think that's what he was going for.
On the other hand, maybe something like blind fighting could be useful to have when going up against a mage who is relying on mirror image , perhaps especially when combined with the alert feat?.
I tried to comment the same re mirror image and linked a Sage Advice where Crawford states that Grapple, while considered a Special Attack, is an attack for rules purposes. Think I was deleted as spam cause of the link.
@@fortunatus1 Now that's a good point. Yeah, mirror image actually should work on grapple in that case. This probably requires some DM interpretation though.
I think the biggest problem with a mage hunter like this is that the best way to hunt a mage is to be a mage. Many people interested in "mage hunters" have been frustrated by the power that mages have, and making a sorcerer or wizard to take out sorcerers and wizards is more of a "if you can't beat them, join them." answer.
Actually arcane archers regularly do more than 20 damage and can blind the wizard or banish them or all sorts of cool things. Rogues with mage slayers also regularly do more than 20 damage. Rogues are great counters. Most damaging spells are dex saves.
@@conradkorbol We'll maybe Treantmonk will make a build that goes that direction. But all his biggest suggestions were arcane spells, namely Counterspell, Dispel Magic, and Silence. One of his major class feature selections was Subtle Spell, which is a Sorcerer feature.
@@halfmask3 I think you're right, him choosing a sorceror or bard seems very likely. Having the ability to cast multiple of these spells will probably mean a high level caster
@@halfmask3 oh I know, I just think he doesn’t look at leas optional classesz arcane archer sucks so he probably never even considered it. He also doesn’t trike rogue that much. Those are both like niche builds that are good at only killing wizards lol
I think you're right, but, to be fair, thematically one doesn't really choose to be a sorcerer. Depending on why one is a sorcerer, it's very reasonable one might want to kill other people with magic
*spends years telling the internet how to build the best spellcasters*
“Ok, now this is how you wreck them!”
Spoilers: to defeat the mages, you must become a mage yourself
Treantmonk: Can a monk do this well?
Me: Has the day finally come?
Treantmonk: No, the monk is still a monk
My dream aboul a shadow monk tabaxi with sentinel, mage slayer and some rogue level for sneak attack inside a silence is still a dream for a reason
A good spell I often use against mages is Maximillion's earthen grasp because it is a strength saving throw which restrains the enemy, and 9 times out of 10 the enemy mage is going to get restrained. The best part about it is that if they get out of the spell via teleportation you can move the hand again to put them in it.
That’s not a bad idea
200IQ idea if the mage doesn't counterspell it.
@@CufflinksAndChuckles If they're counter spelling, that's spell slots they aren't using to nuke your asses, so still a pretty good win!
Dispel magic is also a concern since it is a concentration spell.
@@JacopoSkydweller agreed
I have to say that part of the fantasy of mage slaying is doing it as a non caster
Here's hoping we get one in the future. Probably a fighter and/or rogue subclass. Abilities that counter spells or magical abilities on reaction so you don't need Counterspell. Advantage against spell saves. The ability to end magical effects on a weapon hit. Maybe prevent Somatic or Verbal casting until the end of your next turn, etc
That's just obvious, treantmonk is just trolling in this video.
Non caster as in no spellcasting at all? Because then it’s basically any character that can deliver a giant nova from range, and hopefully you just down the mage in one round.
That was my thought too. More of the badass normal that trains to kill the fantasy supers.
@@fortello7219 I could see battlemaster/rogue being decent. Precision attack can help you hit through the high ACs, sneak attack damage to try and get a lot of damage through to break concentration. Stealthing can help you not be targeted by spells, and they have good mobility.
There's probably more you can do to optimize it, but that was my first idea.
"Does Shadowmonk make a good mageslayer? I'd say they make a better mageslayer than other monks do." Oof.
I think a lot of people avoid counterspell because 'mage slayer' can be as thematic as it can be mechanical.
Many concepts for mage slayers are inquisitor-like, or anti magic. If you have to go full caster, it spoils the flavour of such mage slayers.
Mages can fight mages, some people want a non-mage who focuses on putting mages in their place.
that's a good point. Some people want to stick it to the magic folk
Same, I know I don’t think of a magic user when I think mage hunter. I don’t mind a little bit of magic but definitely not full caster.
Personally I think you could choose a casting class and flavor it more like an artificer who uses artifacts to take down mages. Something like I wouldn't exist if you mages didn't keep ruining everything for your drive for knowledge. I do understand though wanting to be completed sperate from magic. In that case I would probably go the damage route with something like a SS CBE fighter and focus fire the mage.
I played a bladesinger wizard with mage slayer once. Getting up and close against mages was very effective. Mainly because you could Counterspell, but if they're low on hp you can attack instead. Also the concentration thing helps if you're using booming blade.
Yeah, kinda disappointing. Beat spell casters by playing another full caster...no shit?
Other option: Assassin/Battlemaster/Deep Stalker that kills an enemy mage (or anyone else really) in the surprise round.
When people hear "Mage slayer" most people would think "a non-caster that trained their entire lives to fight mages". It's a shame that we don't have sub-classes for martial classes that are specifically mage hunters
There are some things I wanted to add, a few of which are DM and campaign-dependent:
- Some DMs will allow counterspell to work against the Subtle spell metamagic if the counterspeller is under the effects of Detect Magic.
- You have to be able to see the target casting in order to counterspell. That means Devil's Sight may be a good option, and Blindsight from the Blind Fighting fighting style may be similarly effective.
- Wizards often have monstrous guards between them and the party, especially constructs. So our character should ideally have a way to get around those creatures. Teleports should work for this, but having high mobility in general is also a plus.
- Hiding will protect you from most bad things a wizard might try to do to you. If they have to guess your position then they're very likely to miss you entirely.
- Not very practical, but use of the Glibness spell on charisma casters allows them to succeed on their counterspell attempts 100% of the time even when using lower level slots. I say this is impractical only because it's an 8th level spell
With all of that in mind, a goblin warlock (using Tasha's to customize them to have a charisma bonus) could be a very effective mage killer. You'd want two levels of fighter (action surge to get around counterspell if needed, and blind fighting). You'd also want to take the feat Metamagic Adept and choose Subtle as one of the options, giving you two subtle spells per day (which is probably fine, since how often do you need to fight casters per day?). Eldritch Sight and Devil's Sight should be taken so that we always see ALL magic around us, no matter the conditions, as long as we're not concentrating on something besides Detect Magic (which becomes free with Eldrtich Sight).
With this combination of sight features, it should be basically impossible for any spellcaster to do anything around us without us knowing about it and being able to subtle Counterspell or subtle Dispel Magic the effect as needed. Our weapons include use of obscurring effects like fog cloud, from within which we still have 10 feet of sight, can hide as a bonus action, and can blast the target with eldritch blasts and other spells. Action Surge will allow us to overwhelm enemy spell casters via action economy, which is a nice way to get around their attempts to counterspell us (assuming they even have that spell).
Fiend pact would be particularly noteworthy for this character since Dark One's Own Luck, Fiendish Reslience, and Hurl Through Hell may all be extremely effective for fighting enemy mages. Hurl Through Hell, when we get it, will allow us to temporarily toss either the spellcaster or a troublesome minion of his out of the combat for a full round, and we only need to land one attack to do so (which we have multiple attempts to do if we cast eldritch blast or even Scorching Ray).
I mean... any sorcerer with Hexblade 2 would dominate most mages.
Just want to say that I love the idea of Detect magic countering subtle spell. I have a sorcerer BBEG who will be spamming subtle spell, so this is something they could gain knowledge of before they are finally ready to defeat him.
Based on all those requirements I’m leaning towards something like: Yuan-it Oath of Ancient’s Paladin 7/Divine Soul Sorcerer 5.
Adv on saves, resistance on spell dmg, boost to saving thrown, Charisma is a primary save, as well as the 2d4 Favored by Gods, misty step always prepared from Oath, Dispel/Counter from Sorcerer, Subtle Spell as well from Sorcerer.
"Oh SWEET another Treantmonk build" Almost immediately dunks on monks.
Somewhere here, I argue that they're still pretty decent!
So, a Divine Soul Sorcerer, with a careful selection of spells and probably a two level dip in warlock, got it ;D
Thats like working for everything. Damage Healing Counterspelling Social Interactions etc. Its just wonderful
Try to imagine an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, with Warlock dip of Undying, u get the silence spell, u have also psionic spell (synaptic static, Tasha's mind whip and dissonant whispers).
The 1st level of undying gives u "resistance to undead" EVEN against SPELL...
So let's remember, on the monster manual who is a mage and also an undead? U got it the lich :')
I'm thinking some kind of Tasha's sorcerer with a 3 level dip into lore or eloquence bard for jack of all trades, access to silence/extra spells known, athletics expertise and cutting/unsettling words.
Yes divine soul but 2 levels of paladin and booming blade smite from darkness. If not darkness then spirit guardians, haven't tried silence though. Now that he can fly with 1 bonus action with no concentration he has even more control.
Really any sorcerer with two levels of Hexblade. Hexblade’s Curse + Magic Missile and Subtle Spell + Counterspell.
There is a difference between a character that has something little extra that might be useful against a mage, and a mage hunter.
Both are absolutely fine, but if your backstory is one of a mage stealing your chest hair, and you really want revenge, you better become a proper mage hunter.
*Hearing Treantmonk talk about the benefits of playing a monk* - Something's wrong. I can feel it.
I guarantee you they're not that bad!
@@CufflinksAndChuckles i would argue it depends on the rules you play. if feats are not allowed (which we often forget is true for most tables confirmed by JC) then i would agree with you. If you are rolling stats and play a standard or low magic campaign then hell yea they are not bad.
@@geniumme2502 The build I would recommend for Shadow Monk only involves Sentinel feat. But if there are no feats allowed, the Monk wouldn't need Sentinel to get their strategy going. Just take a look at the build down below. I make a couple counterarguments against TM's criticisms, which I think need to be taken with a grain of salt for the most part. A strength and wisdom monk with proficiency in athletics can still do quite a lot.
And if we're talking about the type of table being played, then I can equally make an argument that the DM might not have a spellcaster that's as optimized as TM described. Most spellcasters you'd go up against probably won't have incredibly high AC AND Constitution to the point that they're tankier than your party's own frontline.
@@CufflinksAndChuckles I made a long post somewhere here about TM creating an enemy before creating the character - it ends up being geared towards a very very specific thing - not generally well rounded which i find to be a huge concern - If that Mage you are hunting happens to have subtle spell you are screwed. If he can wildshape. same. if he has telekinetic, is an echanter a chronurgist or one of may others, hell if hes a summoner the beast will just shove you away. (and so would any allies of that mage) ... TM even told everyone that mages should nearly always have acrobatics proficiency (for his lv 8 encounter with a 14th level caster that would mean at the absolute minimum a +7 Acrobatics, possibly a +8 or 9 likely even with lucky to turn your advantage into super disadvantage if its necessary (and its kinda a 50/50 before that) .... Yea i think he created a strawman caster and then the solution for that one encounter and generalized it to "if the DM actually made custom mages which are optimized" ... if i made any of those mages bad kitty would have a bad time >.>
@@geniumme2502 I agree, there are a few things some mages can have that would absolutely trounce mage slayers like subtle spell.
My favorite anti mage maneuvers are Eldridge knight action surging out two silence spells, because the first one is going to be counterspelled, or a theif rogue/ Eldridge knight making a cloud of flour with a bonus action, then casting silence (can’t counterspell what you can’t see, thank Tasha for blind fighting!) then casting silence and action surge grappling with expertise.
Was also going to call out the counter spell cheese. The reason most people don't go that route is it's cheesy /too easy /boring, and thematically speaking ime most mage slayers fluff wise would rather be martial than casters.
I like how shadow monk checks pretty much every box for your requirements for a good mage killer. Especially once you tack on skill expert athletics. Fey touched with hex to give them disadvantage to resist grapple and you more damage plus misty step when not in darkness is also a solid option. And both are half feats, which can allow you to throw in alert to pretty much guarantee you go first. Easy reliable access to grapple and prone in silence, stealth to get the drop on them, and of course up to 4 chances to stun lock (which also ends concentration) and is pretty much never gonna have to worry about immunity to stun. I mean sure, one or two custom bad guys in a campaign MIGHT be specially built to give u hard time, but same goes for literally ANY build. The vast majority of casters and magic users in a given campaign are NOT going to just be shrugging off stun attempts, never mind the grapple prone in silence...
But TM isn't totally biased against monks, we all know that ;p
How is counterspell cheese? It's literally the opposite of cheese?
I'm going to assume you're saying the idea of a mage slayer is that the character doesn't use magic or isn't a full caster themselves (think templars from dragon age), and that going the spellcaster route is a bit of a cheat.
Under that assumption, well the truth is WotC just hasn't published any good anti magic options, at least nothing that competes with what actual spells can do. That's the reality of it. However, you can certainly make ANY character at least effective against mages. There isn't anything available in official dnd content that is like Dragon Age templars or w/e though.
Lots of DMs tend to be wizard players. Lots of those wizard players tend to have high-level PC builds that they never get to play. Lots of those builds end up becoming liches, illithids, and witch-kings thrown against the party. And lots and lots of players have absolutely no clue how to deal with that.
What I'm saying is, on behalf of my players, this is sorely needed, thank you.
This is very accurate, at least for me. All the builds I do that I know will never see the light of day end up as prevalent PCs, either baddies or even sometimes allies that tag along or do something else for the party.
Missed the School of Abjuration Wizard. I often call it the anti-spellcaster spellcaster. Improved Counterspell, magic resistance, a bubble of hit points that must be depleted before they need to make concentration checks, access to Sleet Storm and Silence spells. Multiclass a couple levels of fighter and throw up a Force Cage (non-concentration) and a Silence spell in the same turn. Get a simulacrum to create a counterspell chain in the event the enemy spellcaster tries to counterspell you.
Video about How to Make a Mage Hunter. Would be a shame if somebody took your advices and used them to build even stronger mage MUHAHAHHA
Sounds like an optimization arms race that the dnd world isn't ready for.
The Mage Slayer Slayer has terrorised the Mage Slayers of the land.
We need a Mage Slayer Slayer Slayer or a miracle...
Assuming that the CR and general level of difficulty remain the same... if you have a mage spec against a mage hunter to that degree, I would hope that the rest of your party would have an easier time against the mage. Otherwise, all you'll be doing is raise the CR and end up wiping the party.
And here I thought you undersold the monk in previous videos. I see you're an optimized monk slayer build.
Somewhere here I argue that the Monk isn't as bad as this video observes!
How about a human, Mark of Sentinel, Star Druid.
The race allows access to Counterspell.
The dragon constellation allows you to never roll under a 10 on a Wisdom check. And dispel magic and counterspell are Wisdom checks for druids.
They also have sleet storm and are pretty good controller overall, so you will be good at stopping mages without being less of a druid overall. The only caveat is that druids aren't the best at dealing damage, nor at teleporting. (Misty Step from Fey touched and Metamagic from feat)
"...next time."
Bamboozled! I say!
TM, great video as usual. Shockingly, I've never seen anyone comment on the art you display in your videos. I absolutely love it. Thank you!
This is such an exciting concept and an extreme tease! Can't wait to see the full build and add it to my daydreams hahaha
Spell Breaker does have a second use-case where it can be better than Dispel Magic. Dispel Magic doesn't allow you to choose which spells you do or don't want to dispel. So if the party member you want to free from a debuff also has one or more buffs on them, say Haste or Mirror Image, those spells would get dispelled too. With Spell Breaker you only end the spell you want to end. Obviously not enough to make Arcane Clerics a "mage slayer", but certainly a welcome addition if you want to (help) protect your party from mages while still being a Cleric doing Cleric things (and some Wizard things at level 17).
I don't know if this was intentional or just a happy side effect, but I love the idea of doing theory/thought process videos on Friday and following them up with a build on Monday. I think it really encourages us to try our hands at a build over the weekend and compare on Monday. I know I am working on my own mage slayer now, at least.
Without subtle spell, can we cast a 60ft range spell against enemy counterspell? Easy! Just move out of 60ft range or enemy vision to cast the spell as ready action. Then we can move within range to release the spell during the same turn! Because we are just releasing the spell that has been casted, the enemy cannot counterspell.
That does require concentration, which isn't a problem if the spell in question is your concentration spell for the fight, and your reaction, which means you cannot counterspell them either.
@@predwin1998 If your spell can CC enemy caster, then you don't need to worry about counterspell later. If you are fighting against multiple enemy casters, your counterspell can be countered anyway.
@@Zynovus True enough. Though most spells that CC a caster (or anyone really) to the point where they can't cast spells anymore tend to require a saving throw of some sort. Most spells without saving throws tend to hinder movement or sight moreso than the actions available to the target, as far as I'm aware. The only 60 feet spell that reliably CC's a caster that I can think of is Maze, though I might be missing something.
That said, your idea is valid, and my reply might have come across more bluntly than intended. The points I mentioned are limitations, but they do not invalidate your idea.
@@predwin1998 Thanks for your input. I think every task will has a price. The counterspell is one of great spells in game. If we need to cast a 60ft spell that cannot be countered, the reaction triggering ready action is the cheapest price to do so.
Will it guarantee 100% CC the enemy caster? Of course not. It's a chance anyway. In 5e, it's very common to buy a chance in the cost of class feature or feat choice. My idea here is just to offer a way with possibly lowest cost.
For things like this I would run it by your dm first. They might not like the cheese of casting just out of range and walking in. Personally if I was dming I don't think I would allow it unless you had counterspell yourself
My personal mage hunter build is a fighter eldritch knight 3/bladesinger 17. I use a Drow, but others work well. Fighter gets us con saves, action surge, and blind fighting style amongst other things. Eldritch Knight gives us a couple utility abilities, but it also gives as a ton more cantrips and the ability to have shield, absorb elements, and magic missile always prepared. Like you implied, the mage slayer feat is a bit of a trap pick and our reaction will be needed and better spent primarily for either counterspell or defensive wards. Metamagic adept for subtle spell, war caster, and try to get your Cleric friend to cast silence in a ring of spell-storing for you. I pick Drow for flavor (Eilistraee follower, yada yada) and for mechanics drive you get great darkvision and some great free spells. I also try to grab Drow high magic if I have good rolled stats because not having to wait 10 minutes for detect magic is a game changer (and a free counterspell!)
It's worth noting, I think, that most "Mage Hunter" character concepts implicitly assume you yourself AREN'T a mage. That is, that you're ideologically opposed to arcane magic rather than just a mercenary who is optimized for taking down enemy mages. By things you say, this will likely be a sorcerer taking out their "own kind", which is definitely a different flavor than combating magic from the outside.
Straight abjuration wizard with metamagic adept for some subtle spellcasting when needed is a pretty good mage slayer, if you want to keep it simple or can't multiclass. Also, I liked the way this video examined the building blocks of what you want when optimising this build, I wouldn't mind some more general videos about what to keep in mind when trying to optimise a character.
Also with a dip into Druid(Circle of the Moon); good attack ability, and selection of other/optimized anti-mage spells
Since none of my players are wizards I made wizards a hated class in my campaign world and created a wizard villain that ticks all of the "Mages made to kill PC" checklist you listed. I am glad I met those requirements without having to watch any of your videos beforehand :-D. The main feature I made with this wizard is they have no damage dealing cantrips, so spell slot resources are going to be a problem in a long fight, of course the party still has to find ways around their control effects and outlast them before they can really get control of the battlefield.
If I may, I'd like to introduce you to a build.
Thrown Weapon fighting
+
Net
+
Sharpshooter
Or
Crossbow Expert
Or
Gunner
A net is a special ranged weapon with a range of 5/15 feet
A creature that gets hit with a net is restrained until it is freed, so no somatic spells.
It's a dc 10 strength check, there is NO saving throw
And you can only make 1 attack on you turn if you use a net.
Sharpshooter allows you to use it at up to 15 feet as it is a range weapon
Gunner or Crossbow Expert allow you to use it within 5 feet as it IS a range weapon attack.
Thrown weapon fighting allows you to draw and throw a thrown range weapon as a single action on your turn.
If you run a class that allows you to give your bonus action to another character, you can still get that same damage off.
Just avoid slashing damage as that will cut the net and free the large or smaller creature that you have restrained
I just watched both your videos and I would surmise that a Shadow Monk isn't as bad as you think it is, but still only slightly worse than your Mage Slayer build at getting the job done.
My build is: Firbolg (+2 Wisdom, +1 Strength). Assuming a standard array, I would give them 15 Strength, 14 Wisdom, and 13 Dexterity. I would spend my first ASI on Sentinel and the rest on STR and then WIS, allowing me to have 20 STR and 20 WIS by level 19. I also chose Athletics and Stealth as my proficiencies. This allows me to have great grappling checks while at the same time having a 19 Ki Save DC, which is as high a DC as one can have in D&D. Optionally, you can also use an ASI to get the Alert feat for better initiative.
So, imagine this:
The strategy can be used as early as level 5 and scales well into the latter stages of play. First turn, I rely on my Dexterity to get a higher initiative than the caster. This would be aided with the Alert feat. For my full action, I cast Silence on the caster. As a bonus action, I cast Hidden Step to turn invisible and gap-close as much as I can to the caster. I'm able to use Silence and Hidden Step in one turn because Hidden Step is a spell-like ability and does not count as a spell. In the next video, you mention that it would be easier indoors to cast Silence because of the nooks and crannies of something like a dungeon. Your words, not mine. Outside, I'd have to be at least 10th level to cast Silence without being Counterspelled before gap-closing in the same turn. On the caster's turn, they can't move because I have advantage on my opportunity attack and Sentinel. I can even try to stun them with Stunning Strike, but I don't need it to keep them in the zone of Silence. On my next turn, I can do any combination of Stuns and/or Grapples as my Attack action and then use Flurry of Blows on my Bonus Action to get in as much stuns as I can to stun-lock or grapple-lock the caster every turn. At the very least, the Silence + Sentinel + Hidden Step/Shadow Step mobility would do very well as a way to keep Silence on the caster without needing to do much on the monk's full action.
Another strategy I might use is to just use Shadow Step as a Bonus Action, giving me advantage on 1 attack that turn. And instead of casting Silence, I will either try to stun you twice or grapple you twice. If I'm lucky, I can stun and grapple you in one turn. And if I'm close enough, I don't need to use the Bonus Action to gap close, and instead just use it for Flurry of Blows. A monk has options in how they are able to lock down a caster when they have Sentinel and Hidden Step.
Regarding your thoughts on Shadow Step, a light cantrip and a torch would require at least a bright light radius of 20 feet. A Shadow Step would take me at most twenty feet away from them, allowing me to walk the rest of the way. And if for some reason Shadow Step can't be used (on broad daylight or a well-lit indoor zone), Step of the Wind is still a great option for sticking to a caster. By level 5, a monk has Extra Attack (for two grapple opportunities), 80 feet of movement with Step of the Wind and possibly 100 feet of movement with Shadow Step. Shadow Step also gives me advantage on my first attack until the end of the turn. But if I don't think that will work, I can use the Firbolg's Hidden Step, which gives me Invisibility until my next action, as I had mentioned in the strategy above.
Regarding your thoughts on stunning strike, I agree that an optimized mage can have a high AC (Mage Armor + Shield), and it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to see one have an AC of 20+ in the middle stages of play. It also wouldn't be out of the ordinary to find a mage that is optimized to have 20 Consitution. But by this point, I'd imagine that a mage that has 20 Consitution and 20+ AC at the same time would have to be a high enough CR where the monk's later skills would be online. And besides, if a monk decides that they want to do four attacks with Stunning Strike in the first or second turn would still have a chance at locking down a mage. Finally, if the monk decides they want to be a strength monk, their attacks and grapples would be pretty effective. Your argument is "if the mage is built effectively." I think it is safe to assume that most mages the party will come across won't have high AC and high CON consistently until later levels. Sure, there might be some set-piece mage encounters early on, but surely not ALL of the mages I can come across as a level 5 monk will be tankier than my other party members... not until at least the higher stages of play. I think it's safe to assume that with my build's diversity of gap-closing and lock-down options, I stand a good chance as any to lockdown a mage at a consistent enough basis without having to sacrifice too many things. You used the example of a 5th level monk with +6 to hit going up against a 20+ AC spellcaster (not including shield and magical items) and enough CON to upset him... In what scenario barring a BBEG is this level of "optimization" appropriate? I understand that you're preparing for the worst case scenario, but I think a Shadow Monk can be decent enough to get the job done. At the very least, I would hope that I would at least be higher than level 5 before my monk meets a mage of this calibre.
It is also possible that if the mage is putting all his points on Constitution, then his Spellcasting modifier is not that high, giving a monk ample space to keep repeating the strategy until one stun or grapple comes through in the zone of Silence.
And then, there's that one Sage Advice where Jeremy Crawford ruled that the Stun Condition could necessitate an automatic failed grappling check on the part of the mage, according to RAI. However, I do concede that not every DM is going to rule the game the way that Crawford would.
Regarding your thoughts on Evasion... Your Mage Slayer build can't protect a party from that many fireball spells any more than a monk can assuming your Mage Slayer is within the effects of their own Silence spell, which you indicated was your intent at turn 1. The difference between your Mage Slayer and my Shadow Monk is that I can at least survive one fireball if I didn't first lock them down in the first place. Unlike your Mage Slayer, my monk can eat up a fireball pretty well. And besides, I think the idea behind a Mage Slayer is locking them down in the first place, so Evasion isn't even in the strategy. It's just icing on the cake.
I agree with your thoughts on Stillness of Mind.
I agree that Diamond Soul is pretty late. But I would argue that a party meeting enough optimized spellcasters on a consistent enough basis would probably mean that they are already late enough into their level progression to experience this. I would also argue that most of the spellcasters a monk will meet AREN'T optimized in such a way unless the DM is running a setting where every spellcaster is a BBEG or a set-piece encounter, which is unlikely. I'm not saying that a party won't meet such a villain before 14th level. I just think it is unreasonable to expect to rate a subclass based on an unlikelihood versus what is more likely to happen.
I've come to realize that the approach of character building is very different when you are building it for home games and a DM running his own world vs an AL game or someone running a published adventure. The entire foundation of assumptions are different concerning party make up, DMing style, and magic items available.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood Aberrant Sorcerer with the Metamagic Adept feat!
what would be REALLY cool, is a Mage Hunter party build! and party builds in general! (partys that synergize together well) ...just an idea 😎
Enjoyed this little teaser! Show me the build.
I'd like to see those optimised npc mages as well, I suppose building one that provides a good challenge for adventurers is different from building one that is good against monsters.
if your playing in high levels, a 15th level bard who cast glibness cant roll lower then a 15 on a charisma check, their counter spell includes a charisma check, pair that with jack of all traits adding half your profiency bonus so +3, and then at that level you can expect maxed out charisma or near maxed out if you multiclass so at least a +3. you aren't always going to be fighting a mage so save your 8th level slot for those cases and you can never fail a counter spell even when cast at 3rd level. if you want to use the mage slayer feat take 1 level of hex blade and 4 levels of paladin. you can shut down any spell either through counter spell or by dealing massive damage through smites to force those difficult concentration checks. you also have a vast amount of spells that can combat mages such as tashas hideous laughter, darkness, etc. id even go swords bard to focus on that melee bard mage slayer
Hiding and breaking line of sight is also good for avoiding counterspell. Hide as an action bonus action quicken spell. Sometimes you only need to move around a corner or drop to the floor behind a table. Also manage your distancesyou gotta be within 60' to counter spell. It's very fun to start your turn within 60 feet and then move back cast spell move forward.
My mage hunter build has been a sorcerer for a while. She didn't start as a yuanti pureblood but when she became one the benefits made it obviously the better choice.
it's weird because he assumes the enemy mage is always going to have medium armor, shield, shield spell, HIGH con saves, full casting, high DC and hit bonuses
but not subtle spell mm to ignore silence, counterspell, etc
My personal Mage Slayer build is Paladin/Divine Soul Sorcerer. It has access to counterspell, dispel magic, silence, misty step, shield, mirror image, and spirit guardians. It also has access to metamagic. A particularly useful one is subtle spell, allowing you to cast counterspell subtly so that the enemy mage can't counterspell your counterspell. Also, subtle spell allows you to cast spells with vocal components while inside an area of Silence, allowing you to grapple an enemy mage inside Silence while retaining your ability to cast spells. It has good burst damage with smites to help break concentration. If you go 6 levels into Paladin, then you get great saving throws from Aura of Protection. If you feel spicy, you can go Oath of Ancients for that warding aura. Access to heavy armor allows you to make one of your primary stats strength, which is useful for grappling. I feel truly sorry for any mage that faces this monstrosity.
I'm currently shaping a Fighter (later to be multiclassed into War Cleric) towards being an effective anti-mage/magic build. Definitely going to be using these points for that.
What i'd do is a valor bard 6 (athletics expertise at 2, warcaster at 4) -> fighter 2 (unarmed fighting) -bard 8 (metamagic feat) >bard to 18, might dip sorc instead of the feat if i fight more than 1 scary mage a day.
Race would be either satyr or Yuan-ti
If those are banned, as they should be, I'd play a deep gnome (mini magic resistance) or an orc (for agressive).
Play style:
turn 1: get to the mage,weather by dispelling a crowd control effect (jack of all trades helps a bit) or if you go first using a teleport or orcs aggressive trait. (I assume a bonus action and most of the movement was used here)
You then use the attack action to grapple the mage, you get 2 attemps and you have expertise, if the first attempt goes well, shove prone or smack them in the face.
Action surge and cast silence (with subtle spell) centered on the mage.
Following turn if you dipped sorc for extra sorc points then cast thasha's hideous laughter (using subtle spell) to Incapacitate the mage, and hope they die by turn 3.
Archmage is the official "enemy". A lvl18 wizard... with +1 Concentration save and 15 AC. Mage Slayer seems like a pretty good feat. if you just inflict a lot of spread-out damage (like Damage at the beginning of the round, while attacking and at the end of the round). If the target hast to roll 4 concentration checks at disadvantage even with +7, they are about to fail sooner or later.
I found that a Rune Knight Devine Sorcerer Aaracockra combo works really well against one wizard, you bonus action Giants Might rush in advantage grapple, Action Surge Subtle Spell Silence then bully. This combo with Enlarge also helps with grounding dragons.
I think this build will be a sorcadin.
I could be wrong.
Well it would have all the things he has said. High Str, high Cha, and probably use a few feats to get Athletics expertise
I would build a sorcadin for that purpose. Probably just 2 or 6 levels paladin and the rest in shadow sorcerer with subtle spell and quickened spell metamagic. If i go paladin 6, i would choose the oath of conquest, which gives "Armor of Agathas" and "Spiritual Weapon". AoA is not really useful against spellcasters but against melee opponents, and spiritual weapon is a nice ongoing bonus action, which can pummel the mage while you grapple him. The Channel Divinity "Guiding Strike" helps to overcome high AC. We also get "Aura of Protection" to help us against all saving throws. Shadow Sorcerer can use his sorcery points to cast darkness and can even see through it, we can also summon dire wolves to help us chasing a fleeing mage or pummel him and at level 14th we can teleport through darkness and dim light with a bonus action.
If you really want to pummel a mage with this built, you quicken "Hold Person", if he uses "Counterspell", you just use yours, and if he fails you use your attack action to attack with advantage, if you still can't hit him, which is unlikely, you still have "Guiding Strike" to get a +10 to hit. A hit on a paralyzed creature is an automatic crit, so you just use your highest spell slot and divine smite his ass. I think this build is generally really strong, but could be flavored as an Inquisitor-like Mage Hunter who swore an Oath to catch all evil mages. His sorcerer powers could be explained through his backstory. Why does he hate mages so much? Maybe he was killed by one which awakened his innate shadow sorcery.
I think feats that would work well with this build are "Metamagic Adept" and "War Caster" if you use a shield. "Skill Expert" is also a great feat, which you can use to get expertise on athletics to make it even harder to escape your grapple.
So I actually had this thought a few months ago and I think Eldritch Knights work great here mostly when they hit level 14~15 but pretty well before than too.
Variant Human and Grab Fey Touched to get Misty Step and your choice of Bless or Gift of Alacrity Have high Str, Int, and Con in that order. Weapon would be Greatsword(for damage) or Glaive (Polearm Master). Spells I would take are Booming Blade, Mind Sliver, and Lightning Lure, Shield, Absorb Elements, Hideous Laughter, Darkness, Mind Whip, Binding Ice(new addition), Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Slow. Feats I would take are Tough and Shadow Touched and Polearm Master if you chose Glaive all other ASI should be allotted to Max out Str and Int which is why I grabbed Tough. So you Can turn Invisible(Shadow Touched) and Darkness prevents being targeted, teleport with Misty Step and Arcane Charge, cause opponents to roll low on your spell saves with Eldritch Strike and Mind Sliver, Mind Whip and Slow reduces what the Mage can do on their turn and prevents Counterspells and Shield, Bless(if taken) and Slow increases your likelihood to hit, Gift of Alacrity(if taken) is great boost to intiative to get start throwing debuffs, Shield and Absorb Elements Mitigate damage taken, Hideous Laughter and Binding Ice keeps the Mage locked down and only able to teleport away, Lightning Lure can pull the mage to you and deal damage if needed, Booming Blade is an to deal high burst damage to try and break concentration, Action Surge allows you to cast two spells per turn so if they do counter one spell cast it again, and one final note make scrolls of spell you know that way the few spell slots you do have are not as big of a problem. Also for simplicities sake I'd like to crunch damage number real quick 2d6+str (5) averages about 12 damage you get three attacks per turn assuming the mage has been rebuffed by Slow of Mind Whip you will hit about 2 out of three attacks that means average melee damage per round is 24. Assuming the Mage is the same level as us and rolls average on hit points and has a +4 Con we are looking at about 120 hp that means we will take them down in about 5 turns. If you made it this far thank you for reading my thoughts and please give any advice you can. Thank you
Spell Breaker is more useful than that. Using Dispel Magic will also remove buffs that a Cleric could give to the party, while Spell Breaker let them choose what effect to remove. It was an oversight talk about how the abilities interact with a party and forget how the mage slayer itself interacts with the party too.
I love this concept. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
16:20 grappling and shoving are actually called "special attacks" (phb 195 )* and mirror image responds to attacks rather than attack rolls or hits, so mirror image should work against them.
*crawford says that "special attack" refers to it not being a weapon or spell attack www.sageadvice.eu/2018/11/21/so-grapple-a-special-attack-is-not-an-attack/
Agreed, but its odd because its an attack that can't hit, and mirror image says hitting is what dispels an image, so grappling may be strictly worse against mirror image.
Definitely seems like a paladin would be a good choice for this, because they hit hard and have access to some pretty useful abilities, also it'd be pretty easy for them to grapple and smites would make it difficult for mages to maintain concentration
I think mister slayer is very very good because the counter spell they get can’t be counter spelled so it’s Guaranteed and the save bonus is great and once you get to level 15 your unstoppable trading an action for a reaction and not needing spells on your own turn means a spellcasters can’t possibly get the same value. In addition with the mage slayer fest every reaction attack still gets a bonus from the third level feature because it’s once per tune so add that with hunters mark and forcing the caster to have disadvantage on con checks you can pretty consistently get 20 damage or so and if you end up using crossbow expert and sharpshooter you can even do 30
Abjurer grappler or Rogue Soul knife as damage + homing strikes and a fighting style breaks conc. or Phantom for saved, no hit roll damage and ghosting past defences !
Oath of ancient paladin also has misty step, giving him good mobility. But I still agree that just having counter spell and dispel magic is still better. Which is why the best mage slayer is a sorcadin (or, as I call it the paladorcerer)!!!
First feature you want is the silence spell, then the first feat you want is sentinel. There are no escape spells in the PHB that doesnt require V component. So multi-class Totem Bear Barbarian/War priest/trickster rogue. Barbarian for proficient in con saves, good armor, multiattack/rd, and farther speed. priest for silence spell. rogue for sneak attack and sneaking up. Do Rogue Trickster for casting Misty Step. Use barbarian wreckless attack for advantage on attacks so you can sneak attack every round with a scimitar.
Eh. U lose out on a lot of ability score increases by multiclassing so much then on top of that ur grabbing a feat all for sentinel where an optimal wizard is gonna have 22+ ac. They likely would just walk out let u do ur opportunity attack since ur likely to miss then cast spells outside the silence aoe.
Counterspell can really seem like a waste of a spell pick if you only encounter two hostile spellcasters between level 6 and the end of the campaign at level 12.
I’ve got a build for a Barbarian mage slayer that is specifically meant for closer quarters beat downs of mages. 3 levels bear totem barbarian/17 levels psi warrior fighter. Choose to make him a war forged far traveler who came from an ancient mage empire that fell long ago. He was designed as a mage hunter/ executioner that would accompany a state sanctioned wizard on missions to kill those who where rebelling against the empire. He uses mage slayer cause he is a melee fighter through and through. Bu I did consider give him some swashbuckler rogue levels just for the extra mobility he would get from cunning action but I think fast movement and the mobile feat fork for that, and I would lose out on the latter abilities I wanted. What do y’all think I should do to improve him???
The real problem lies in the fact that mages are not simply mages but a range of playstyles. Like, an bladesinger charges the enemy and fights in close quarter combat with ridiculous AC and Temporary HP stackt (like false life wich as a reminder can be restored any time) and multible other enchantmens on him self (tensers transformation) so that he can at last fight on equal footing with any other martial class.
An necromancer or conjurer on the other hand will let his minions rush in as an expandable source with gives him an the advantage on action economy and he will boost them or give his enemy disabiletating effects to win the fight.
And last but not least the famous "blaster" archetype which relies on his distanz to his enemies and as well as huge damaging spells. All these archetypes have very different strategies, taktiks and fighting styles and it requier diffrent strategies, taktiks and fighting styles to face them.
For example, can you close the distance to your blaster type enemy before he can shoot you down or can you reach him in the first place if he can fly and teleport? Or how you deal with a conjurers swapping ability and his willing conjurations with which he can swap places an unlimited number of times and be in every spot on the map?
In favor of simplicity let's forget that every respectable wizard has if not his own tower at least a cave or some retreat, which is heavily enchanted to ward of every intruder. And let's also ignore death cheating methodes, spells like "Clone", "Contingency" with a teleport or healing spell or that you have fought the hole time a simulacrum.
I believe we all have watched enough of treantmonk's content that i dont have to spell all the OP possibilities and versatility with which a high level wizard can fight his enemies. I love his series to wizards and all the stuff around that.
So how do you counter that if you are not a wizard or spellcaster yourself.
How do you fight a reality bending force of magic? Someone who travels planes and shadow dimensions in research of magic that not only bends but outright breaks the laws of nature? Someone who traps the weakminded in endless ilusions with a flick of his fingers?
You have to be not only a strong, tough and dextres but also intelligent and strong minded to go against a wizard and be at least able to withstand his spells long enough so that you can get to your turn.
So you optimize and what now? How do you win the fight?
The answer: you don't.
You can optimize to go eventuell against a specific type of wizard but thats it and the fight would also be tough and the victory would not be shure.
But there is a solution... There is a mage slayer witch kills his target 100% of the time. A mage slayer so feared that no mage dares to set foot outside his tower and has to send his minions to do his tasks insted.
I believe the best mage slayer is the 1 round surprise kill build that you can find everywhere when you look to optimize for most damage in a turn. You know what i mean... the Assassin rogue fighter sharpshoter multiclass.
The Ultimate Assassin v2.0 - The Deadliest D&D 5e Archer Supernova Build Ever!
( ua-cam.com/video/UY-r2Z5gcME/v-deo.html )
or "Shadow Blade Assassin: 1000+ damage build. Adventure League"
(ua-cam.com/video/5eJDWG0UlsM/v-deo.html)
The only way to beat a wizard is to dont let him do anything.
PS: Mask your traces and make hell of a lot sure they can´t track you down by any means. (like the Spell Nondetection, easily obtained from the svirfneblin Racial Feat)
I think you kinda overlooked ensnaring strike (strenght save), protection from energy and misty step (for closing distance) on oath of ancients, along with smite for breaking concentration.
I always liked the portrait and skill set of the Witchhunter class in The Elder Scrolls. No armor proficiency, but lots of speed, agility, and skills with a bow.
How i think this can be build:
Race: Satyr for magic resistance + changing the ability score if needed
INT Class: 17lvl Abjurer Wizard + 3 Armourer Artificer, if you want more spell.. or 10lvl Abjurer + 10lvl Armourer for more infusions and others good stuffs
CHA Class: 17lvl Aberrant Mind Sorcerer + 3lvl Paladin/Hexblade, for the subtle spell Counter.. or 6lvl Aberrant Mind + 14lvl Paladin/Hexblade for more combat focused
FEAT: Fey Touched or Telekinetic as the half feat + Sentinel
The Mage Slayer I’m currently playing is an Arcane Trickster with Find Familiar and the Mage Slayer feat. A sneaky Booming Blade with Advantage cuts through the AC and damage problem. I’m also going to be getting Mobile to Dash through any difficult terrain the mage tries to create.
My favorite build echo knight 3 arcane trickster XX. Take vuman ritual caster wizard at lvl1 for find familar. 1st level fighter w blindfight. Lvls 2 thru 5 as rogue/arcane trickster taking mobility at 5th lvl.
@@jeffdietz630 Do you plan on using Darkness shenanigans with Blindfighting?
@@adverseflower9551 you can but darkness is easily countered. Better opportunities are available with concentration free full obscurement. Pyrotechnics works for this or if you can get your hands on an eversmoking bottle your familiar can lay down the smokescreen for you.
@@jeffdietz630 With Pyrotechnics you do need to worry about the opportunity cost of having a fire around to cast it. Also, since you're getting Ritual Caster for Find Familiar, what's your lvl 1 non illusion/enchantment spell?
@@adverseflower9551 you have your familiar carry the flame source for pyrotechnics. You can have it drop it and use pyrotechnics on it. For your 1st level non illusion I like fog cloud. I also like use of silent image to create an illusory fog cloud to use for ranged attacks. It has the benefit of not causing allies within the illusory fog bank to be obscured. As long as the enemy doesn't interact i.e. physically move into it it remains a viable illusion giving total obscurement advantages and is mobile for 10 min duration. (A very strong case can be made for eldritch adept feat taking misty visions i.e. silent image at will)
Finally, hiding yourself in a minor illusion box/Boulder allows you the ability to manifest your echo to deliver your (sneak) attacks without reprisal in most instances.
I think the actual build will either be a Lore Bard (CHA saves + 6th level secrets Counterspell and Dispel Magic), or an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer (All of that + subtle spelling)
Great stuff! Looking forward to seeing the build.
Another factor that can be taken into consideration to counter mages would be to use stealth. Since most spells require the caster to even see the target in the first place.
But a stealth build would likely have to contest the enemy's likely high perception, also as said in this video "The dm is making a mage built to counter players" they may give them proficiency in perception or even the alert feat to shut down their strategy, the environment may be bright, also the really high AC that you explicitly mentioned to make an attack that bit harder to pull of (Lets not forget many creatures have darkvision, though Gloomstalkers deal with this). Worth noting regardless
I mean...if you’re throwing a monster with a 25 AC against a 5th level party, that seems more like the DM just deciding that martial characters don’t get to have fun rather than an inherent problem with the shadow monk build. It would be like deciding that your monsters have proficiency in every save, counterspell, an anti-magic cone, evasion, the lucky feat, and legendary resistances. I guess casters would be less effective, but it seems unsporting.
I think the monster has 20 AC and access to the shield spell and mirror image (admittedly that's worse because crits practically can't happen)
My bet is divine soul sorcerer x/oath of glory paladin 3-6
-Silence through divine soul
-Counterspell, dispel and misty step through sorcerer
-High 1 hit damage through divine smite
-Subtle spell and quicken spell metamagics.
-Advantage on grappling through channel divinity
-Find steed if you take paladin higher for greater mobility.
Rune knight is also a workable alternative to paladin since action surge and making yourself big are both brilliant, but you aren’t advancing your spellcasting progression at all, and you are also not going to have brilliant options for dealing a tonne of damage in 1 hit if you need damage to break their concentration.
This is my idea for anti-mage. Gnome Rouge/Barbarian for advantage in almost all saving throws. Go with expertise in stealth and slight of hand. Go with arcane trickster for invisibility and maybe eventually dispel magic or counter spell. Then, slight of hand their spell components or arcane focus. Finally, rage and grapple them and then stab as they are grappled and therefore you get advantage. They got no spells and are fairly damaged AND grappled first round.
My guess b4 the video is that it's going to be a sorcerer bard multiclass based on bards getting the best counterspell possible, needing to avoid being counterspelled and TM favoring casters.
Edit: oooo....I think I might be right after watching!
Going through the list of criteria for mage slaying, my first impulse every time Chris went to a new topic was to think of how a Zealot Barbarian that was too angry to die would check most of that list off except for getting out of things like a Force Cage. The other obvious exception being the need to spend some attention on bolstering your Wisdom saves so you don't become an asset for the Mage against your party (Poor Yasha).
But I generally think the best mage slayer is another mage that's better prepared for the engagement. Probably something like your Githyanki War Wizard/Battle Master build, as the War Wizard toys (Arcane Deflection, Power Surge, Durable Magic) will probably help significantly more than being a Bladesinger. I pretty much already envisioned that build as a Darth Vader type, so the idea of hunting down mages feels like Vader doing some Jedi purge stuff.
I still want to play that build whenever my DM gets around to our next game, but I'm curious if you have any suggestions for updates in the wake of Tasha's.
I think the most important thing to have is a good wisdom save. If the enemy mages are optimized, you're looking at hold person as soon as level 3. They might up cast it against the whole party. That's a very, very big deal.
So Resilient Wisdom should be included at some point, preferably immediately unless you have advantage on wisdom saving throws for some reason, then you can pick it up later.
That end sounded like "i'll be making a mage slayer next time , aka a Paladin Oath of Watchers"
I bet Custom Lineage for Fey touched for charisma, so we start with 18 charisma,
go level 2 or level 6 into hexblade based on how much we want to delay extra attack
get metamagic adept feat at level 4 (or 5)
max charisma at level 9
what do we cover?
solid support spells and damage in a normal combat
misty step from fey touched
solid charisma save against force cage and banishment
counterspell and dispell magic after level 10
good channel divinity to protect allies from the most devestating spells a mage has
high enough strength and athletics to grapple
divine smites to drastically increase the mage's concentration spell (if the player deems it necessary)
blindsight to ignore mirror image
Waiting impatiently for the next video now. After a re-listen, my money is on a Sorcerer/Rogue/Bard multiclass.
- Silence spell? Check.
- Good Grappling? Check.
- Boosted Counterspell and Dispel Magic checks? Check.
- Teleports? Check.
- Charisma save proficiency? Check.
- Fast movement? Check.
- Subtle metamagic? Check.
- Spells that break concentration? Check.
- Super high single attack damage? Check.
- Good at Murder? Check.
- Versatile for non-mage combat? Check.
Waiting for the next vid. Hope it doesn't take long.
I think something you miss with spellbreaker vs dispel magic is that dispel magic on someone ends all the spells on them, harmful or positive, so if you have a buffed paladin who failed a save, you may want to heal them and end the bad effect, but keep the buffs. I also think the mass dispelling factor is better than you make it out to be, as most parties will have everyone end up taking a little damage, even if that damage is focused on certain characters, so you are likely to be able to end effects on any memeber of the party
divine soul sorcerer seems like an obvious pick but hear me out: wild magic sorcerer. you can use tides of chaos to gain advantage on your counterspell check if you need it. you also get bend luck, which can help allies on nasty saving throws. you miss out on silence but you can pick that up with at least a 3 level dip into fathomless warlock, which also nets you pact of the talisman which can again, add to your counterspell checks. pick up eldritch mind and another invocation of your choice, maybe agonizing blast so you can do sorlock things when you're not fighting mages.
Any sorcerer dipped with Hexblade 2, get Hexblade’s Curse + Magic Missile, Subtle Spell + Counterspell, Darkness + Devil’s Sight, Dispel Magic, Silence, and a couple of teleports. Add Alert, Lucky, and Resilient along the way.
There, solved.
And I guess if you wanna get really fancy, add Bard levels and possibly Fighter 2 for Action Surge.
Nice video! Without getting too far into optimizing, I have always felt that eldritch knight makes a good basic chassis for an "anti-mage" character. Looking forward to your next
Not sure how to lore it together, perhaps similar to Sentry from Heroes of Aerois, some sort of ancient fey adjacent machine of order. More stonehenge than steampunk.
Yuanti pureblood ancients paladin 6/ clockwork soul sorcerer 14
Advantage on all magic saves +Cha
Resist spell damage
Smite for concentration breaking dmg
Subtle metamagic
Reaction "warcaster advantage" canceling
Counterspell, Entangleing, and movement spells
Just started the video, so here's my guess / shot at it - Bladesinger with Misty Step, Counterspell, Dimension Door, and Mage Slayer feat. Though I wish I had Silence and Quickened Spell, so maybe multiclassed with Divine Soul sorcerer for 3 level dip.
After having seen the video - yeah, I did not take into account the high AC. 😅
But I think you have a particular build in mind to counter. A subtle spell sorcerer may be great against a bladesinger, but a bladesinger is great against a subtle spell sorcerer.
So I'm looking forward to see how you counter different mage builds with your mage slayer(s).
Another bonus to bladesinger wizard is that they have decent melee attacks so you could [eventually] cast antimagic field and put that melee attack of yours to use. Maybe throw in the sentinel feat and 3 levels of arcane trickster levels [a little sneak attack, athletics expertise, cunning action, + some spell progression].
TreantMonk I’d like to see a full build breakdown for an enemy mage that you outline at the start.
Lots of great idea and well thought out. Mirror image not working on a grapple I would say uhhh no it works. 😝
Going to hazard a guess and say satyr race for magic resistance and fey type, so humanoid-only spells like hold person won't work on you.
Aberrant mind sorcerer for the psionic sorcery and metamagics, ancients paladin 7 for the 2 auras, and maybe fighter 2 for action surge
Smashed this watch button fast
It's not something I had thought about before. But as soon as I clicked on it, my first thought was "High Saves... Dex, Con and Wis, mostly." Second was "Counterspell". I'm no advanced player, but, as you said, how could anyone make a Witch Hunter and not have Counterspell??
Taking guesses on his build based on what he said here.
I am betting he goes against his normal halfling love and goes Satyr, Divine soul sorcerer/hex blade.
The undying warlock hope is in the mix!
I’ve been waiting for this build ever since Treantmonk said wizards were his favourite build, in other words “forever”. Need a way to “challenge” those highly optimised pesky PC spellcasters that “someone” has been bandying around 😥
Thanks as always and really looking forward to your next vid. 👍
One of the places where Silence really shines is against clerics/priests. Every spell on the cleric's spell list has the verbal component so this spell is devastating to divine casters. You need to be able to limit their movement so they can't walk out of the area, though
Mage casts daylight
Monk Shadow steps to the Mages shadow being created by the daylight spell.
This is super niche I don’t know anyone who would build something like this
If you’re looking for a number crunched optimal mage slayer (which you said you do) this is all true. However, mage slayers often have a hatred or extreme dislike of magic and in those cases there aren’t a lot of options. Monk works ok for non-magical mage slayers but Wizards didn’t give many options for a traditional mage slayer :/
and what we will get is probably a multiclass between sorc hexblade and pala. Sorlockadin! the answer to all things. welp that or a grappling build (which i would really not enjoy if thats the case but i dont think so)
and here i am a few days later after we got a grappling build that is a sorc pala (bard) MC :(
So... Judging by hints in the vid we are up to Clockwork or Aberrant Mind sorc build. My money is on Clockwork
I was thinking Aberrant or Shadow. Aberrant get even more ability to subtle spell, but shadow sorcerer gets basically ALL the goodies the shadow monk gets
Pretty much any Sorcerer with Hexblade 2 can satisfy these criteria.
Two tactics I was expecting: counter a spellcaster by overwhelming them. Counterspell is a reaction, so hitting them twice on a single turn us a reliable way to get past that effect. For this reason a fighter 2 dip, maybe 3 for eldritch Knight can be very helpful. Second is simply beating them in the initiative. Spellcasters need time to set up, so hitting them early is a must in my opinion, so high Dex builds and alert are very helpful.
Lastly, bit wierd spending a whole half a video ragging on shadow monk, and then pretty much ignoring the good aspects: mobility, initiative, good saves for dexterity and wisdom, darkness is also undersold in my opinion, sure there're spells which don't need sight but ones which effect the action economy often do. You could certainly do a lot worse, not to mention your standard for a mage slayer is very different from the usual definition?
But fyi I agree, mage slayer isn't very good..
I know that it’s not a build per say, but I would love to see a “TM fixes the monk class”.
For a oneshot I used a Shadow Sorcerer as a Mage Hunter. It is very good and fun, but fun to hear the oneshot was in the underdark (no shadows). Worst scenario ever hahaha
Sounds a lot like the Tabaxi Pally 2/Swords Bard X, Azorius Functionary build I've been harping on for months.
It covers 5/6 of those points well, only really lacking Subtle Spell, which could be easily made up via Metamagic Adept feat.