Personally have enjoyed taking Fey Touched feat to grab my Arcane Archer, not only Misty Step but, Hex. The latter spell alows you to use a bonus action to give the target disadvantage on the Grasping Arrow Strength ability check (+1d6 dmg), prior to you taking the attack action.
I like it a lot, since you feel like a Ranger anyways, so you get an (for this occasion) improved Hunter's Mark. I thought about taking the Telekinetic feat for triggering the Grasping Arrow slashing damage. While your DC won't be amazing, it's a free use of the bonus action you lose by not being able to go Crossbow Expert and you get a Wisdom increase and invisible Mage Hand on top, which is never bad.
@@buraeen5735 I guess that's better, but it is also a higher investment with a lvl AND a feat which you will get later through taking that warlock level. The question is: Does the extra damage from the Dao feat count as being part of the attack itself in RAW?
@@0ff5PR1NG I agree it is harder to get to. I'm assuming it works RAW, but not entirely sure. Thought I remembered TM using it for spike growth before which seems the same to me, but I didn't do any checking to make sure.
Big brain time: When you miss, use Curving Shot to turn the arrow back at yourself, then use the Monk Reflect Projectiles to throw it again as a reaction
If it only didn't cost a bonus action, a reaction, a ki point and the possibility of not reducing all damage at all and just damage yourself I think it could be a good idea
1:40 Opinions like this are why I hate Hand Crossbows (or rather bonus action attack part of Crossbow Expert). When anyone thinks of a ranged build, Hand Crossbow is assumed automatically. Any other option is just unviable for them. And the worst is, in most cases they're right. Glad you've decided to defend the proud name of Longbow here.
I mean, I think you have to take a hard look at what you consider "viable" is. A baseline fighter without subclass is viable in most campaigns. The worst monk subclass is still viable in 95% of most campaigns. I like to optimize the characters I make, but I like starting or having an idea rather than just a weapon and a feat.
I loathe the hand crossbow, not least because it didn't even exist until the late 70s and has no place in a medieval fantasy game. But I also have no interest in a "ranged" weapon with an effective range of 30 feet ... and unlike the sling (I used to hit tin cans with a sling at 40 or so yards back when I was a teenager-and I was no expert marksman), the range on the hand crossbow is fairly accurate in the game.
Hand crossbows should be 1d4 damage like in previous editions. Especially if they basically net you the bonus action attack that pole arm master gives. Would they still be good? Yes, would more players think hard on a two die drop on damage. I think so.
@@jamesbolt1003 Nah, Hand Crossbows themselves are fine. What needs nerf is the bonus action attack. I personally would remove it completely, turning Crossbow Expert into a half-feat almost exactly like Gunner. I get that people may like the flavor of rapidly firing hand crossbows, but I don't see how you can nerf it while keeping the flavor.
@@antongrigoryev6381 but it's shooting a tiny bolt from a toy gun looking crossbow. A thrown dagger is only 1d4. How does this toy earn 1d6? The point on it looks to be the size of a caltrop.
Sometimes, I feel like I'm the only person that just hates the hand crossbow. I wish it didn't exist, except maybe as a 1-2 dmg ranged poison delivery system ( with no static modifiers). My suspension of disbelief isn't strong enough to accept it being the super weapon 5e has made it.
That's fair, that tiny little weapon is somehow better to use than a longbow. But I suppose you could flavour it to be a shortbow instead, and keep the benefits of the hand crossbow
My DM has banned the things entirely. But then he, like myself is a medieval longbow archer, and both of us have shot hand crossbows. We were not impressed to say the least. Someone trying to claim a piddly little toy crossbow could have anything close to the impact of a 160+ lb at 36 draw weight War Bow has no idea what they are talking about. Hell a medieval longbow had serious difficulty penetrating even the weak points in full plate historically, the guy wearing that armour is not even going to notice the bolt from a hand crossbow. Even worse, a hand crossbow is no faster to cock and fire than a big war bow. So no, you are not the only person who hates the things, and I hate even more that min maxers have made it the weapon of choice for so many archer builds in AD&D.....
Certainly not the only one. It's one of the biggest Suspension of Disbelief plinkers in the game--more than Fireball, honestly. If going for a CBE build, I think it makes a tonne of sense to do what im hulki suggests and calling it a Short Bow, but using the Hand Crossbow stats and range and such. If it's all make believe (it is) who's to say it has to look like a Hand Crossbow? So long as someone doesn't do things which require a bow and not a hand crossbow, so long as there's no actual rules advantage and just gets less silly, should be fine.
Completely agree. I don’t think I have ever considered giving any of my characters a crossbow. Even though CBE is a great feat, actual bows just look cooler.
I honestly think that 1-2 dmg is a bit of an overkill as a nerf, as you're basically saying a mechanically drawn bolt is the equivalent delivery system compared to someone's lungs. (A Blowgun already deals 1 + Dex Mod in damage.) Though I do agree that the damage should be reduced a bit, turning that d6 into a d4. As you stated, the Hand Crossbow is more intended to deliver poisons rather than raw damage. So I think a d4 fits well into its constructed (and expensive, 75gp) nature, while not encroaching on other superior (and cheaper) ranged options. In addition, the Range on the Hand Crossbow should be reduced from 30/120 to 20/80. (Watching a few videos of them, the Hand Crossbow has a dubious accuracy at 30ft and has issues penetrating at 100+ feet.) The Hand Crossbow definitely shouldn't be a high pick for a Fighter or Ranger, but even with these changes, the Hand Crossbow would and should still feel at home in the hands of the Rogue. If these reductions still arent enough, you're honestly better off either banning or regulating what weapons the Sharpshooter Feat allows +10 damage bonus applies to or to the Crossbow Expert Feat.
I’ve said it before and i’ll likely say it again, i never get tired of being mentioned in Chris’ videos. This is content i am more than happy to support.
I feel like it's worth noting that Shadow Arrow, if they fail the save, sets you up to have advantage for the rest of your attacks this turn. A great time to Action Surge and lay down some Sharpshooter hits, especially if you got Elven Accuracy.
It's also beneficial for everyone else on your team. You're giving advantage to other ranged combatants like the rogues, rangers, and spellcasters using attack roll spells and cantrips. It's also going to benefit e.g. the Paladin who took polearm master and sentinel to try and tank for the party, as he can just stand 10' away and poke the bad guy with advantage for free.
@@alanschaub147 yeah, I think so. That teleport will also help you get in position, and get away if they get in melee. Plus, since Arcane Archer can't use Crossbow Expert, you don't have as much competition for your bonus action
I feel like a Samurai does the Sharpshooter + Elven Accuracy thing better. No saves involved and if you drop your target before running out of attacks (which could happen while action surging) you still have advantage against any other targets you switch to since it's a buff on you, not a debuff on them.
The AA really only needs one fix, scaling uses as prof bonus instead of a flat 2. Although some of the weaker shots could use a damage increase before level 18; maybe at level 11?
Yeah, 1d8 at 11th level and another 1d8 at 18th sounds like it would even out the progression, just like either using Proficiency Bonus or, as Cris suggests, adding a shot at 7th, 11th and 15th or 18th would even out progression as well. But if a DM were to add shots using either of these methods, I'd suggest dumping Ever-Ready Shot, as these features really are quite powerful. But the thing is, the Arcane Archer doesn't really need to be more *powerful.* It just needs to even out its progression a bit. ;-)
@@morganpetros9635 Well I was think of d6s not d8s. Evening out the power progression was exactly my point. Instead of doubling the bonus damage at 18, gradually increase it by one die until doubled at 18. Tracking and piecing shots might get an extra d6 that way, but they are the weakest options anyways.
I would disagree with regards to increasing available shots, because I see the AA more like a 1/3 warlock, looking at their ranged shots equating to eldritch blast and the arcane shots like their pact slots. This would then lead to damage increases at lvl 10 and 15.
Both are very reasonable. My games - both the ones I DM and the ones I play in - tend to have 0 combat on most days, or maybe one unusual one (usually meaning there were a bunch of ways to handle a thing and the players woke up and chose violence). But then you hit your 'dungeon crawl' days where they're in enemy territory and then a lot of encounters can certainly make sense.
i for sure run the game with 3 to 4 encounters in a busy day. 1 on a rest day. I sometimes get to 6 when the “pressure is on” and the “clock is ticking.” You should see those PCs sweat, but they are selling themselves short.
Grasping Arrow also works on literally everything. Immune to grappled condition? This isn't the grappled condition. Incorporeal? Doesn't matter. It still works. Throw in enemies with a legendary action that involves moving? Sure you can use that... But you eat damage for it. I'd save this one for big, scary enemies with a lot of health. Most fights go 2-3 rounds, so it would hardly affect things unless you're dealing with a damage sponge.
Nonstandard spells and effects that dodge traditional immunities are invaluable late-game. Which ironically makes game effects that are kind of pants like Confusion suddenly valuable to have as a backup.
I think its bad on its own, as a 3 level fighter splash it might actually not be terrible because it gets very little meaningful from levels 4+ compared to other fighters. So take 3 levels of it (maybe 4 for the ASI) then take an archery based ranger for the rest of your career. You'll only have 2 arcane shot options, but you can pick the 2 most iconic to your character concept. A disgusting combination for an Arcane Archer/Ranger would be to take the archery style with ranger, and the martial adept style with fighter, take the intimidating battlemaster maneuver (frightened condition) and when you use the Grasping Arrow ALSO apply the frightened condition, which disadvantages ability checks. Now if they want to remove the vines its not just an athletics check its a disadvantaged athletics check.
I think it's completely the opposite. It's so niche if you are going to do it you might as well solo class so you get the benefits of being a full fight like that third extra attack. Going ranger you will be delaying extra attack and require intel and Wis.
thing is, fighters also peak in power from 4 to 6 because of feats You don't get more shots but you get two feats if you want, and than you can move to another class if you desire. If you're starting fighter there is no sense in not going straight to 5 for extra attack anyway so it's easy to imagine another lvl for a feat. I like the combo you mentioned, and tbh this subclass pairs well with most rangers (gloomstalker, fey wanderer and swarmkeeper notably)
@@Booklat1 if you are playing a martial, you should choose which you want to focus on imho. otherwise you are having wasted features in duplicated extra attack. For the treantmonk testcase sort of campaign, I would start 1 level in fighter - I like con save and multiclassing into ranger gives you a skill, 5 into ranger, then my last 2-3 levels into fighter before going back to ranger. Missing out action surge until later sucks, but you have to choose whether you want consistent or bursty damage and the consistent extra attack is probably better than 1 action surge. For bonus action, I might suggest you actually go beastmaster ranger so you get a personal "tank" and a way to weaponize your bonus action without having to go crossbow expert.
I like it the other way around. A two, three, or four level dip in Ranger would give you both the Archery fighting style plus Defense or Superior Technique without using a feat, not to mention a limited suite of first level spells. You might as well concentrate on one of those if you're focused primarily on being a Fighter and they could feel like additional arcane options beyond your two arrows. 17 levels of Arcane Archer with 3 levels of Monster Slayer added in the mid game is basically Hawkeye.
Also if you're trying to focus on Grasping Arrow, Rangers can also learn Spike Growth. Difficult terrain minus ten feet of movement could be crippling, and is a natural fit for a party planning on abusing forced movement.
Off topic, but Prestidigitation is amazing, especially for evil or anti-establishment characters. Nothing cleans up a crime scene like Prestidigitation!
I played a necromancer that used prestidigitation to clean up after his skeleton minions murdering a poor drunk dude. Naturally the body did not go to waste and my army increased that night...
@@kibbo86 I didn't murder him. My skeletons murdered him. They were told to kill any intruders in my room at the inn and the DM concluded a drunk guy wandering in and getting shanked would be funny. She was correct.
@@bodbyss It is absolutely impossible for me to image a shortbow that can be fired one handed. Of course, I can imagine firing a crossbow one handed, but my mind stops when I try to explain how a crossbow can be reloaded one handed.
After some brainstorming, I can imagine how to fire a shortbow one-handed. you have a belt around your torso, you have a hook on that belt to hold the bowstring next to the arrow . You move your arm close to your body and catch the arrow and the string. then you push the bow out. You have a thumb ring that attaches near the head of the arrow. with the arrow nocked, you can unhook, aim the bow, and release the arrow with a flick of the thumb. But this is a stunt, not a practical way to gain an extra attack with your off-hand every six seconds. But I still have no idea how to reload a crossbow one-handed.
@@shishkabobby RAW you need to have a free hand to load a bolt into the hand crossbow (not cause of loading, but because of ammunition) so you can't fire a hand crossbow more than once if you don't have a free hand. So just use the shortbow normally and have your other hand empty.
I'm always impressed with your analysis. I finally joined your Patreon. Thank you for making me a more fun player at the table and a better dungeon master.
An important thing to remember about longbow vs handcrossbow is range. Sure, in a dungeon crawl it may not matter much, but bonus action attack or not, if you're getting two or more rounds of free attacks before the enemy can even begin to threaten you because you're several hundred feet away, in those situations longbow easily outperforms handcrossbow.
I think a telekinetic arcane archer could be good. Gives you something to do with your BA if all your sharpshooter shots hit. Plus it gives an intelligence boost
Dunno. It only has a range of 30 feet. If I'm a ranged character, I probably would want to take full advantage of the range and stay as far as I can from the enemies. Doubly so considering that we don't have CE and can't shoot if we get into melee, in which case we'll need to spend a whole turn to disengage if enemies get to us.
@@antongrigoryev6381 Your still a fighter with a d10 hit die, and the monsters speed will be reduced by 10 feet automatically and you can push it 5 feet away. Even assuming your the only one with forced movement it is still a strong move.
@@MarcLucksch Oh, *YES.* This is a great way to get Hex without dipping into warlock and having to improve your CHA on a build that's already pretty MAD. After all, you can improve your INT and use that for the spell's DC instead of Charisma. Only problem is, you could only cast it once per long rest unless you multiclassed into a spellcaster class, but then you could go Wizard ... and I love the Shield spell for lightly armored builds ... ;-)
While Peircing arrow is quite weak, it's worth noting that if your DM gives you specialized magic arrows, such as an arrow of slaying. Piercing arrow allows you to apply their effects to multiple creatures.
The combo Arcane Archer with Grasping Arrow + a Warlock with Hex and repulsive blast, cursing Strength checks, has really too many synergies! It can really be devastating - likely is just a win.
I love the concept of an arcane archer! I want to make it work well, I considered multiclassing with arcane trickster, 2 attacks, consistent damage, and more spells and utility.
Battlesmith is a reasonable way to go; I also considered dipping into it on my Hexbow. It wouldn’t have been until really high levels, though; too much good Hexblade stuff before then.
@@adamkaris Battlesmith also gives you a pet that can take the Help action, giving you Advantage on one attack ... which helps offset the -5 you're going to take using Sharpshooter. Or possibly two if you choose to learn to build a homunculus.
@@adamkaris I think battlesmith works best the other way around, dipping into arcane archer rather than an arcane archer dipping into battlesmith. Because you are building with Int as your primary stat, you would want battlesmith as soon as possible so you start there. But if after level 3 you go arcane archer, you're not getting extra attack until level 8, and that's rough. So arcane archer dipping into battlesmith is only good if you build with int as your primary stat and start close to level 8.
Yeah, not getting more uses of the special shots at 7 and 10 does suck. You are getting diminishing returns on your arcane shot choices, because (unlike spells) you don’t get access to new options. Battlemaster has that problem too, technically, but has more maneuvers to choose from and gets more uses of the maneuvers earlier. Still, I agree that the arcane archer is not bad overall, and is underrated. Good video, as usual.
Piercer feat plus heavy crossbow I just did some math for Fighters, so I thought I'd share. People often say the hand crossbow with crossbow expert is the best combination at low levels, but I just found some love for the heavy crossbow and piercer feat. With custom lineage you start with an 18 dex, instead of a 16 or 17. I'm not going to show all calculations, but the average damage for a regular hit with a d10 and piercer is 6.75 instead of the average 5.5. This leaves the hand crossbow with a hefty 13 average damage to 10.75 average damage lead on regular hits. This is where most people stop doing their homework, so I will continue with some damage per round calculations for you. Hand Crossbow Expert Heavy Crossbow Piercer Average Regular Damage 13 10.75 Average Critical Damage 20 22.75 To Hit AC 13 average damage 9.45 8.66 Crossbow Expert still wins right. 9.45 vs 8.66 is better. Let's dig a little deeper and remember a couple things. The Heavy Crossbow Piercer has one better AC, initiative, dexterity saves and skill checks, and doesn't use up your bonus action. So what happens in a 4 round fight when you have to start using your resources. I'll look at first and second/third levels. 4 round fight using second 8.27 8.66 wind 4 round fight using second 9.45 10.25 wind and action surge My conclusion is that the hand crossbow expert is better in generic fights, but when it hits the fan, the Heavy Crossbow Piercer pulls in the lead. Now, depending on your dm's style, the 0 foot range of the hand crossbow expert might be better than the 100 foot short range of the heavy crossbow. A fighter can always pull out a rapier and shield at 0 feet, while still being able to utilize the benefits of the piercer feat. Between 30 and 100 feet, there is no contest as the heavy crossbow won't be at disadvantage. I hope you found this interesting, Chris
I'd homebrew the addition, that, at the appropriate levels and in addition to the various Arcane Shots, the Arcane Archer gets Cordon of Arrows, Melf's Acid Arrow, Flame Arrows, Lightning Arrow, and Swift Quiver. Lean into the "arcane" a little more.
I had an arcane archer in a campaign, and he did absolutely insane amounts of damage. Especially at 11+, between 3 attacks/ round, action surge, and sharpshooter, he and the barbarian could often do 200-250 dmg to a foe in one round of combat. I literally had to balance encounters by giving bosses hordes of minions just so the archer couldn't burn the boss in 1 or 2 rounds.
Ah, but that only works if the Arcane Archer can't see the BBEG and the rest of the party doesn't have any kind of ranged forced movement to use on it ... ;-)
@@ericmunnisjr4763 in fact, samurais and battlemasters can do it better than AAs AA's gameplan: enemy fails Shadow Arrow save, Sharpshooter, death Samurai Gameplan: fighting spirit, sharpshooter, Death
For Bursting Arrow, I would have also pointed out the friendly fire. You can't choose to avoid allies with this one - if they're within 10ft of the target, they get hurt automatically, no save.
I would argue save DC is the biggest downside to the arcane archer, because if it scaled with dex like the battlemaster, I could see the justification for only 2 shots as opposed to maneuvers. For a ranged character, the arcane shots effects are better than maneuvers.
If you think about it? The AA subclass makes the Fighter MAD. It was probably on purpose to make it seem more balanced. But I took it and ran with it, multiclassed into Wizard.
@@snazzyfeathers that's a great idea, shield and absorb elements can balace less investment into constitution (or at least that's how i would do it because you are already far away from the enemies being a ranged character). Also teleportation effects
I think that an 8 encounter day with only one short rest is incredibly unlikely. It would balance it on a 5 encounter day with 2 short rests. That’s what usually happens in my experience.
I believe that's kind of the point. These numbers are intentionally the worst case scenario (or close to it) so pretty much everyone can depend on seeing these numbers, or better, at their table. Anything else and, since this is the internet, you end up with people saying a build doesn't work at a serious table, or that TM is fudging the numbers to make things look better then they would be in play. ...That's my take at least
@@mozartdminor It's the worst case scenario for a short rest class, sure, but we're talking about a lot more than short rest classes. If we're comparing classes and subclasses, as TM is, this will have the effect of boosting long rest classes above short rest classes, since the short rest classes suffer so much having only a single short rest for 8 encounters. So TM *is* fudging the numbers to make things better then they would be in play, just for the other classes.
I use 6 encounters and 2 short rests with 3 rounds per encounter. I think this one is the most fair to DPR, Long Rest and Short Rest classes. There is worse case scenarios for all of them, but none of them should ever be more than a 25% difference. And if there is, it'll be quickly visible.
At our table we rarely take 2 short rests, 1 or none is more likely because there’s almost always a time limit or chase component at our table - straight exploration, dungeon crawling is atypical.
Thank you SO much for doing a longbow build. I’m all for optimizing, but for me it’s more about how do I make a character I want to build turn out viable. It doesn’t need to be the ultimate min-maxed build. So bring on the longbows, the Dex-based fighters, the dual welders and the fairy enchanter mind-control builds!
You definitely turned my mind around on this one, and in particular on how a combination of an arcane archer and a Warlock with hex and repelling blast could be incredible--particularly considering that repelling blast can be used on every shot, and hex can give them disadvantage on the athletics check to escape.
I could see a build like this, especially since Grasping Shot and Burst Shot don't allow saving throws, and thus the Arcane Archer doesn't really need the highest INT for a multiclass warlock Of course, if you go Warlock you're losing out on a lot of extra attacks ... but I guess the big thing there is whether the campaign is going to 20th level or ending at 10th or 11th. But of course, there are other (and likely more efficient) ways to use forced movement for a warlock (cough DAOLOCK cough), but this is certainly a nice gimmick. I wonder, though, if I was going to multiclass an Arcane Archer, whether going wizard for a few levels wouldn't be a better idea just so I could take the Shield spell. I grant you, it wouldn't do much for DPR (would likely even reduce it or delay it quite a bit), but I like having more than just a pair of metal-studded leather skivvies between me and the enemy. :-D
@@morganpetros9635 Oh I meant a team of two characters, a warlock and an arcane archer, but yes, the multiclass would be solid as well--although in that case I think I'd rather just stay fighter and grab Hex via Fey Touched.
@@ColinKillick Only problem with that is you only get to cast the spell once per day. That can be useful, but it's a very limited resource. However, taking just a few levels of wizard could alleviate that problem ... at the cost of your 4th attack and likely the 18th-level damage boosts. But it all depends on how long the campaign is going to last. If it's going to 20th, I would likely not multiclass this build at all. But if it was ending between 10th-14th, I'd likely take a few levels of wizard along with Fey Touched so I could not only have Hex in my arsenal, but (as I said) Shield as well. In fact, I think Hex from Fey Touched alone would likely add more DPR to the build than Piercer, and getting it even one more time daily would likely improve things dramatically. The only other multiclass I could see as decent (and again, only if the campaign was going to end before 15th level) would be taking only the two no-save Arcane Shots, dumping INT and multiclassing to ranger after 3rd level so I could use Hunter's Mark and Spike Growth. Hunter's Mark offers a mild damage bonus like Hex, and Spike Growth would add pretty dramatically to the forced-movement pain. ;-)
The extra 2d6 damage only applies once during the Warlock's turn no matter how many shots they get, btw. It's still good, the Hex can keep the effect active for longer, and an extra 2d6 damage per round (4d6 if the enemy still tries to move anyway) is pretty great when you're basically just getting it on top of what you'd normally be doing, though.
One thing i would like to note, as scrolling through some of the comments I did not notice this. But at 22:00, it goes into Grasping Arrow effects. This DOES NOT work the way it was explained. the damage on movement is explicitly only applied once per turn, not every time it moves. It specifically states 'The first time it moves'. So only on the first movement on a turn would it take the slashing damage, not every time. It is still a decent ability, but not nearly as powerful as the video makes it out to be.
Cheese grater strategies revolve around "each turn" meaning turn as in each individual creature's turn. -Similar to how a rogue can deal sneak attack "once per turn" on it's turn, but then potentially again as a reaction on another creature's turn, such as with opportunity attacks. Elemental Bane may be a more direct comparison "The first time each turn the affected target takes damage of the chosen type the target takes an extra 2d6 damage of that type." -so members of a party squad would each benefit from this spell the first time they deal that element damage type to that creature. When people exploit cheese grating they are arguing that "... the first time on each turn it moves 1 foot or more without teleporting" is meant to apply in this multi-turn manner, otherwise it would be worded more possessively to specify the creature's turn, like with a cleric's Divine Strike "Once on each of your turns...". So something to the effect of "... the first time on its turn that it moves 1 foot or more without teleporting" or " the first time on each turn it moves itself 1 foot or more..."
I think you'll get a lot more out of Ranger where the core attack and defence is the same for most levels of play. Action Surge may be quite powerful but the flexibility of spells AND ranger class features are just so much fun and can be powerful even if not as obviously powerful as Action Surge.
As someone playing an Arcane Archer, thanks for defending the merits of the subclass. Yeah, there are more optimal damage dealers. I'm at lvl 6 right now and I started with grasping arrow and bursting arrow. Having an early AOE option at range has come in handy, and I'm glad I hadn't take banishing arrow that early. Also shadow arrow is(for most but not all enemies) a good way to give yourself advantage if you can get it to proc on your first shot because you can take advantage of being unseen for your shots and the shots of your allies until your next turn. But then again, the likelihood of passing the save until you get your INT higher is the challenge.
If you want the poison damage from grasping arrow to be reliable, Multiclass into Horizon Walker Ranger and use Planar Warrior to turn all that attack's damage to force, plus the additional 1d8(2d8) force damage. Also access to Ranger spells like Zephyr Strike, Hunter's Mark, and Absorb Elements. Or use Favored Foe if it's the first turn of combat or if you aren't concentrating on something, since it can be applied, on hit.
This is a great video! Arcane Archer is much better than people realize. As an additional note, you can use banishing arrow as an escape for allies. It’s not the best option but if your barbarian is swarmed getting them out of the way for a turn can be great.
I can already hear the outraged howls of my party's barbarian now as someone shoots him in the backside so the wizard can fireball all the bugbears while he's out of the way. I wonder if you can voluntarily fail a save like that. I'd allow it, but with the presence now of at least one spell for which the description specifically tells you whether or not voluntarily failing the save is possible, I one must wonder ... ;-)
When we first did this was in a three party brawl and to help our sorcerer out our barbarian took got in the way of the most of the mele fighters for the other two groups. Our Druid was helping but needed to go attack the casters of one of the parties. The barbarian held out a round or two more but then was close to dropping while still surrounded. The Dm ruled that the bad guys didn’t know what banishing arrow did so they moved when he disappeared and he was fairly safe when he came back.
@@morganpetros9635 If I'm not mistaken, you cannot willingly fail a saving throw unless it specifically states it, but in the end its up to the DM. I typically allow players to willingly fail any Strength or Dexterity saving throw as well as many Intelligence, Charisma, or Wisdom saves, but Constitution is typically your body naturally fighting things off so my group has agreed those cannot be willingly failed outside of a spell or effect specifically stating you can. One side note to this is something Jeremy Crawford stated, that being incapacitated or dominated would effect this. I don't allow someone under either of these effects to willingly fail any saving throw unless the thing dominating them wishes for them to do so.
One thing that feels kinda bad about Arcane Archer: you get two magic shots per short rest. Contrast an Eldritch Knight or Bladesinger, who gets a magical sword attack every round with cantrips like Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade, plus various spells to use a few times per day for big control effects. If the Arcane Archer had a few cantrip-level options you could use at will (maybe even at the cost of multiple attacks) or minor augments to attacks (like Eldritch Blast invocations, or Way of the Open Hand monk effects), it'd help the class overall feel more special. Even if the peaks of the Arcane Archer are worthwhile, it's important to do cool things in the valleys as well, so that you actually feel *ARCANE*.
yea it really sucks. What I, and other DMs in my group, have done is moved it to prof/day for magic shot. Still not a ton of uses but it helps and doesnt let it get crazy out of control.
@@vaalnailo5789 I guess I mind less having few "spell slot" style abilities, but it'd be wonderful to have some Cantrip-style ones, too. Warlocks spend most of their career with 2 spell slots. But they've got invocations and Eldritch Blast to feel special. Many "magic martial" characters have Booming Blade and Green Flame. Arcane Archer having something like those without resource cost would be sweet, and you'd feel ARCANE all the time.
@@thebitterfig9903 Yea, even if it's something as small as an extra d4 (since fighters get so many attacks) of an elemental damage type per arrow or something like that. Just that lil bit extra can make it *feel* magical. Just that extra spice.
Grasping arrow forces the target to make ability checks to try and remove the arrow? Pair that with the hex spell, and make the target even less likely to succeed on that strength check.
This has some of my favorite flavor for any subclass. My only issue with it is the hard limit to the arcane arrows, as it doesn't feel great to only have two uses of something and essentially be out of all of your subclass's unique features. Earlier this year I designed an entirely non-magic archer martial archetype, and the core of that design was the idea that you could expend a certain number of attacks to use different types of arrows. For one example, you could use two attacks to create and fire a tether arrow, and bind yourself or a creature or object in place. I've found that it works pretty well!
I saw a guy use Arcane Archer effectively in tier 1. He waited until he critted and then used bursting arrow and practically one-shotted the evil druid BBG. It was essentially a fireball at level 3 or 4 (probably 4). And besides that, he also consistently did well even when not using his arcane shots, just as a halfling archer fighter.
Sharpshooter really does help with range on a Hand Crossbow but I've been in fights where having even more range was very helpful. In a dungeon-heavy game I'd agree it's not a big deal, but in a wilderness, nautical, or even a city game, it can matter. Anyway, nice analysis, I really changed my mind about Arcane Archer from it. I think short rest type classes generally have a problem with not getting enough power refreshes given most "work days"... this is true for the Monk, Warlock, and often the Fighter.
My arcane archer was really bored with his abilities as he levelled up, due to the limited uses of arcane shot. I gave him a feature at level 10 to be able to cast Lightning Arrow and Flame Arrow up to his INT modifier number of times per long rest, and he can change the damage type to Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Poison or Thunder. At 15th level both spells upcast to 4th level, and at level 18 they upcast at to 5th level. He also gets at level 18 the ability to cast Swift Quiver once per long rest, and while concentrating on SQ enemies have disadvantage on saves against his Arcane Shots. He's level 14 rn, expected to hit 15 by the end of Descent into Avernus and from there the campaign can go anywhere.
For this sort of build (i.e. archer that uses a longbow instead of crossbow cheese), I'd go 5 levels of Fighter (in Arcane Archer, Grasping Arrow) for extra attack, archery fighting style, and action surge, but combine with 15 levels of Rogue (Assassin). - And maybe start out in Rogue for Dex saves (even though it'd push Extra Attack back to level 6).
40:40 this point about finding magic weapons illustrates something that I find to be a greatly underused and under appreciated feature in D&D, one of the coolest ways to spend your downtime and gold: crafting! The only prerequisite to make a magic item is Proficiency in Arcana and appropriate ingredients. For a simple +1 weapon, this wouldn't even require any materials very difficult to get. So its not just having an Artificer in the party, but anyone who has Arcana Proficiency, and a little down time. This is my favorite downtime activity and why I give many of my characters Arcana Proficiency. Then I don't have to be reliant on the DM or the module for which awesome magic items I get; I can _make_ many of them myself! One of my favorite moments with my Bladesinger was when we found a corpse of a dragon and I harvested its scales and teeth and other parts to make a Dragon's Wrath Scimitar!
Seeking arrow is a good counter for invisibility. It's a bit niche to encounter it. But when you do, you want something like seeking arrow. Something fighters won't normaly get (save maybe a 8th level eldritch knight picking up see invisible)
Before the pandemic I played ADventurer's League at least once a weak and have organically brought up three wizards from L1 to L17. This is for both the canned adventures and hardcovers like Tales from the Yawning Portal. I have never had a workday with more than four encounters per long rest. The vast majority of workdays never got past three encounters and a plurality was 2 encounters per long rest. And that's not just a quirk of AL. I also play homebrew games, both at discord and kinda-sorta offline through video chat. 0-1 encounters per long rest is standard. So I automatically get suspicious at anyone who talks about the 5-8 encounters per long rest paradigm as if it were a real thing and not just the game designers not knowing how people actually play. Chances are that they don't actually reflect upon their and more importantly other peoples' past experiences.
For piercing arrow, it would depend on how your DM rules, but it specifically states that creatures take damage as if hit by an arrow. You might be able to convince your DM that RAI you could apply sharpshooter - especially if the alternative is you just always use grasping arrow. Another reason to take piercing arrow over bursting arrow or others is that it lets you shoot through objects and, since it states creatures take damage as if hit by an arrow, you could reason that allows you to apply banishing arrow or grasping arrow. I don't know how a DM would adjudicate it, but you could pull off things like shooting a piercing arrow through a wall of force or a wall of stone and banishing the caster on the other side?
I agree, my immediate thought when I saw that wording was you declare you are making an attack with an arrow, declare it is a sharpshooter attack, and then apply your arcane shot to the arrow. Your dm may claim thats not the way the shot is intended to work which is totally fair but I think considering how limited the shots are used taking advantage of a feat in this situation is just as fair
Another cool thing is, if you can get +3 arrows or even arrows with extra effects on them (e.g., Divine Favor), you can apply that extra damage across all enemies hit.
Super late, but I found a build for Arcane Archer after my character died last weekend; the core concept is battlesmith artificer and arcane archer to scale int and fighter save DC but i made some changes for the sake of cool flavor. Variant Human; take War Caster for feat. Artificer for levels 1 to 3; take Battle Smith so you can attack off of Intelligence and Repeating Shot infusion onto Longbow (no more ammo) Fighter for levels 4 to 9; pick up arcane archer and Magic Initiate (Wizard) for two damaging cantrips and a 1st level at Fighter 4; and Fighter 6 can be a personal choice Now, your firebolt and Ray of Frost essentially only require verbal components and can be fired from your bow :) plus you get some nice utility spells like Faerie Fire and Grease Seemed like a bit fun and fitting flavor - considering magic archer? Edit; Pretty sure, this is by no means is this "optimal" though lol
Yea, I'm a big Grasping Shot is awesome preacher. One thing I think is neat about Piercing Arrow is that it applies the damage to targets as if they were hit by the arrow. In our games, magic arrows with extra damage are common enough. So a +3 arrow, for example, does its bonus damage on all targets. Toss in something like Divine Favor and that applies too. It's still not close to beating Grasping Shot, but I think it gives it an edge on Bursting Arrow at my table.
Glad i found this video! I have a love for really Understimated and Underappreciated Subclasses, finding ways to boost the Underdogs (Yes, my favorite Classes are Monk and Ranger, why do you ask?). I know that a class should stand in it's own, but honest Arcane Archers work best as a multiclass. Build 1: 15 Levels Arcane Archer / 5 Levels Battle Smith Artificer. The most Boring, the Most Obvious and most effective. Spells make everything better, and your infusions allow to have variety to your build, as well as offering different options like your Blinding Infusions, or Spellwrought Tattoo for Find Familiar and give advantage on a Critical Attack. However, being able to use your Intelligence Modifier to Attack means, that you are an Intelligence based Hexblade. You only need Intelligence, nothing more, nothing less. Most of the demerits of Arcane Archer drop with this dip. Hey, and guess what? I'mma tell you a little secret: Artificers get Catnap! So if you're willing to take your Artificer to level 9, then you might get 6 uses of your Arcane Shot per day, even 8 if you are allowed to short rest more than once. Build 2: 11 levels of Fighter / 3 Levels of Shepard Druid / 6 Levels of Gloomstalker Ranger This one's a bit more my style, the Druid Levels are honestly optional, just Fighter and Ranger would work. "But wait, you need a high int for your Arcane Shot DC!" No, we don't. I'm only taking Grasping Arrow, and Bursting Arrow, none of them require Saving Throws. "But what about the ability Check to get rid of the Branches?" You activated mt Trap Card! Rangers (and Druids) have a little spell called Ensnaring Strike. When you hit them with a Weapon Attack, vines appear and restrain them, they make a Strength Saving Throw and if they fail, they are restrained by the Magical Vines. They need to make a successful Athletics Check to Escape. With the same arrow, you can basically burden your opponent twice, aplkying Grasping Arrow AND Ensnaring Strike. If they manage to escape from one, they still wasted their turn and they most likely waste another turn to get rid of their other restrains. All the while taking damage in the process. All the benefits still apply, while massively controlling one big enemy on the field. "But why Druid?" Shepard Druids get quite a powerful healing aura and Summon Beast can be quite effective while you don't have Arcane Shot Options, as well as better Spell Slots. This is optional, tho. Build 3: 14 Levels Arcane Archer / 6 Levels Genie Warlock Who said Spike Growth, Eldritch Smite and Grasping Arrow on the same build?! Me. Again, no need to invest in Intelligence when we could care less about our Save DC here. Best case Scenario, your enemy is prone, -10 feet of Movement, lost a turn and in a Field of Spikes which will damage them if they dare try to escape the field. And after they finally escape, you can push them back in with Repelling Eldtrich Blasts. Also you can fly now. Congrats. Also remember Catnap? Genie Warlocks can do it without expending Spell Slots, that requires 10 Levels Though.
When you mentioned forced movement and it dealing damage for forced movement per turn, not per round, I realised why this was so good. Until then, I didn't really see HOW MUCH DAMAGE this can really deal. If you have 6 players, and let's say half of them can inflict forced movement, then this deals 6d6 damage automatically and another 2d6 on turns where the target moves themself. This may only work until a successful strength athletics check is made, but there are many target with low strength
@@TreantmonksTemple You don't even need Hex. 5E D&D monsters are actually really crappy at Athletics checks. Hill Giants have a score of +5 and they're on the high end. There are some outliers like the Korred and the Fire Giant, but it's not out of the question for something like a 1st-level Barbarian to successfully outgrapple a Pit Fiend.
@@TreantmonksTemple I was wondering why you didn't mention Hex! Hex has incredible synergy with Fighter already, and actually being able to utilize the disadvantage on an ability check portion is just gravy on top. I was thinking the best time to pick up Hex would be instead of Piercer by taking Magic Initiate (Warlock), and you even get the advantage of picking up some excellent utility from cantrips like Minor Illusion and Mage Hand.
@@adonyx1 This is ... problematic ... with a build that has CHA 8. Probably better to let an actual warlock, or maybe an Aberrant Mind sorcerer, cast this spell for you.
one dirty necromancer combo if the party can pull it off, is one ally casting elemental bane [fire] onto an enemy, while the wizard casts flame arrows and distributes them to to the skeleton archers -and any other bow user in the mix. 12 arrows that once per creature's turn deals 4d6+Modifiers (+Prof for undead minions) and bypasses fire resistance on a hit. Granted it helps if the target is lower AC since skeletons only have +4 to hit]. And should the wizard-archer get a kill with their shot using one of these arrows they also regain 6hp lol!
Key word was "first time" and "1foot or more" not every 1 foot of movement on its turn. Still good. Easy fix is arcane shots increase with your profciceny bonus.
Increasing the number of shot uses equal to your Proficiency Bonus or having it increase at the feature levels is definitely something that would help it out. I'd also like to see a better scaling for damage, either starting at 1d6 at 3rd and increasing by 1d6 at 7th, 15th, and 18th, or starting at 2d6 and increasing at 10th and 18th. To me it just seems a bit silly having to wait for any noticeable damage boost all the way to 18th level when the Battle Master dice increase in size at 10th and 18th level (though it's hardly a comparison, it would be nice to have consistent increases all around). I am honestly surprised at how I did not see just how powerful Grasping Arrow is until now, it's honestly insane and really fun to optimize. But now, I think it has of a detriment than anything because now I can't look at the other shots the same. We're pretty much always gonna take Grasping Arrow as a first option and it will always be good, while the other options are either decent or not great. Again that probably isn't helped by having so few shot uses, but it's definitely one I'll be thinking of whenever I'm playing the Arcane Archer. If at some point there's a revision, the shot uses scaling would certainly help, but I'd also like to see more shot options as well! We've got Chronurgy magic, Graviturgy magics, Dunamancy, heck I'd argue the Hemocraft from the Blood Hunter could have its own specialty shot (and it especially works since it's also based on Intelligence). The versatility in combat and non-combat situations will always make the Battle Master a go-to, and if the Arcane Archer had more versatility in combat I think comparisons would be harder to make; shots that can be triggered Hawkeye-style could be pretty fun, or ones that have utility uses like setting things aflame or freezing things. I considered making it available not only to Bows, but also Crossbows and even guns, but now I think it's a bit unnecessary (gunslinger is right there, me, how did you forget that). I've seen homebrew that makes it a caster similar to Paladins and while I think it would be cool, it might be too much with what is already there and could easily overshadow the main draw of the class: do you want to be a really cool bowman that melds magic into your weaponry. I've been enjoying your analysis' on tons of classes and subclasses as of late, making them stronger, and pointing out aspects that are overhyped or not talked about as much. I look forward to whatever you may tackle next! (Id' love to see you take a look at making the Storm Herald better/more flavorful)
I like the concept of a Battle Smith with a 3 Lvl dip into arcane archer. fey touched with hex and the steel defender and you turn into a cyber ranger. after you hit with grasping arrow you can order your defender (with a bonus action) to grab and shove the target. I envision him/her as a Tortle who was damaged by an explosion and replaced parts of the body/shell with tinkered gimmicks and the the Defender is a spider-like creature, that is wrapped around the shell. I would also pick the seeking arrow and combine that with branding smite to fight invisible enemies. I would talk to the DM first but assume, the seeking arrow always hits, so the branding smite can reveal the enemy. What do you think ?
Prestidigitation does give the Arcane Archer access to the Eldritch Adept feat, though, which can provide some very tangible benefits to practically any build. I mean, Devil's Sight is an option, and it's *really* powerful.
That's... an interesting interaction I hadn't thought of before. Now I'm thinking that things like Armor of Shadows, Fiendish Vigor, and Mask of Many Faces might be worth a feat for certain character concepts, especially on a Fighter.
Arcane Archer grants the fighter the ability to cast a cantrip, but it doesn't give the fighter the Spellcasting feature. For Eldritch Adept to be a feat the fighter is eligible for, they have to have spell slots of some sort, like an Eldrirch Knight.
Grasping Arrow is definitely under-valued. I was skeptical until an Arcane Archer joined one of my games and I actually read the effect. We admittedly didn't have many forced movement options (though the Bard occasionally tore it up with Dissonant Whispers) but even then it was an immensely valuable tool. In the action economy, effects that require a turn in order to ATTEMPT to shake an effect tend to be amazing. Similarly, I think Wrathful Smite tends to be under-valued. I made a grappling-focused Paladin once that would fear a creature and then make sure it couldn't escape. It was at perma-disadvantage unless it ate its action to attempt a Wisdom CHECK (not a saving throw) to stop being scared. And if it managed, Wrathful Smite is only a 1st level slot. Obviously, unlike Wrathful, Grasping doesn't allow a saving throw at the start, but fear is a good debuff and if it sticks it sticks hard. Bonus points if you're Conquest, which I actually wasn't. Footnote: Wrathful is also concentration, which Grasping is not. Not that I think the two should be compared straight across, because they're incredibly different. It's just that effects of this sort are VERY RARE and I think Wrathful should have more attention than it gets. Not all the attention in the world, mind, but more than it gets.
I have a first-time player running a straight AA in one of my campaigns. He went for bursting arrow first but he's very quickly discovered how much damage he gets from grasping (The character is level 5). On advice from another DM I gave him a quiver that recharges 1 arcane shot per day as a bonus action to help with the resource pinch. He's not only keeping up with the bard, wizard, and barbarian in the party, but the range on his longbow has been vital in several encounters, once yes even to near the 600 ft mark.
As a DM looking at grasping arrow what jumps out at me is the fact that allies can break the vines. Not the case in all combats, but if there's a single big monster I personally have them assisted by some smaller creatures also so it could take their action away instead of the biggest creature. And because their initiative could be interspersed at any point in the round then there's a good chance they might break the effect for the creature before it has to use it's action. Don't get me wrong, it's still amazing and the above solution does require that the monster in question is assisted or has intelligent enough minions to help, but I can see obvious ways that the effects might be mitigated.
How good are these minions Athletics checks? This takes their action and swings economy toward the PCs even if they succeed, and when they fail, maybe multiple times, that’s Hypnotic Pattern levels of good with no Charm immunity potential
When monsters are using their actions to escape effects, rather than attacking, that's a win for the players. If you decide as the DM to pad your encounters with monsters dedicated to this sort of thing, that's your choice as DM. No judgment here, for or against; but the players can't make decisions based upon, "Well, the DM might start padding encounters if I use good tactics."
@@FruitsCSamurai might not be great, then again might be better if it's a spellcaster. And for sure it's definitely still a win, but maybe not as big a win as it's being presented.
@@elementzero3379 not something I'd intentionally include to combat that feature, just seems like something that would naturally happen imo since having any creature work alone is a bad idea for encounter balance.
Hot take on seeking arrow: The DM can do whatever the player’s do in regards to NPC actions. This means that monsters/NPCs aren’t 100% stupid. They know what they, and their allies, can do. They know some level of strategy that typically works for them. If there is even one rogue in their group that the archer saw at one point that uses the move, shoot, hide, shoot, move, hide model for their turns…..the Arcane Archer can hit them with this with their first attack. They can then use sharpshooter to negate the cover dealing more damage, and if needed, they can action surge to take out the sneak.
One thing to note in favour of Piercing Arrow, is that it benefits more from weapon buffs than Bursting Arrow (though I will admit Bursting Arrow is still more consistent). Things like elemental weapon, flame arrows, the Fey Wanderer's Dreadful Strikes, the chromatic dragon feat, etc., will all apply to every creature affected by Piercing Arrow. Also you can shoot through walls, but that's going to be very niche (for example if you have the warlock wall-vision invocation, you could wall bang enemies).
I do tend to do more encounters per day as I only allow 1 long res a day. However sometimes its tough to make players continue along. In a dungeon, approaching an enemy stronghold, or having a time limit have worked well though. In all those there is heavy incentive to keep moving. I learned a lot when they went into some Dwarven mines that were overrun by goblins. They learned a lot too. Party was used to the leomunds tiny hut being safe and so the goblin shamans had dispel magic. They got attacked close to 12 times on approach to and inside the mines. Most of these encounters they were very aware that many more goblins were between them and the throne room and they had to get creative to run and not be chased entirely. It was a great time all around.
So, what you're SAYING is, I should start with a Grasping Arrow, Action Surge to cast _Tasha's caustic brew_ (by feat or multiclass, doesn't matter too much), and laugh as they have to take two separate actions to end two separate instances of extra damage on them?
@@imhulki463 even better, I recently realized an 11th level artificer of any kind (with access to _find familiar_ ) can imbue a sling with _web_ and tie it to their familiar who uses it. Meanwhile, you cast _Tasha's caustic brew,_ with higher level slots even, on enemies within the _web._ It's an action to break free of _web_ (which they could fail) and an action to get rid of the acid. I'm playing an artificer right now, but I'm only 10th level. I'm really looking forward to level 11.
So the poisoner feat allows you to apply poisons to your weapon/ammunition as a bonus action, hey something else to do with your bonus action early, it also ignores resistance to poison when you deal damage (including grasping arrow) and the big one is when you hit with a poisoned weapon or ammo, now it states the poison remains for 1 minute or until you hit. Piercing arrow says that all the creatures in the line take damage is if they were hit by the arrow. Now I assume that the poison would only affect the first creature in the line but if it allows you to hit all creatures in the line with poison that would be a wonderful feat for arcane archer and a damn good reason to pick up piercing arrow. The other thing with piercing arrow is Bursting arrow deals extra damage to creatures around you that isn't part of the attack, if a caster enchants your weapon and you use piercing arrow through 2-4 creatures, they also suffer whatever the enchantment to the weapon does as well, such as Casting Holy Weapon and then using Piercing Arrow. I also wonder if this would be a solid 3 level multiclass option with a ranger or ranged rogue for the use of the shots.
Also, forced movement is a hugely underrated tactic and I'm surprised at how many players don't take more advantage of it. It's so underrated that 4E D&D literally rewrote most of its powers so that Murder Pinball wouldn't be as dominating. Graviturgists get to be a top-tier wizard just from their level 6 feature, turning spells like Eldritch Blast (if they can swing the stats), Magnify Gravity, Jim's Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, and even Magic Stone (with the help of Crusher) into easy 'you don't get to attack this round, you poor melee-dependent peasant'.
Come to think, you could probably do a whole video on the evil and hilarious things you can do with reliably access to Forced Movement. It's really hard to get, especially if we're talking about 10-foot forced movement -- where the real magic happens -- but it's oh-so-worth it. A Graviturgist and a Sorlock can keep entire enemy bruiser teams from taking a meaningful turn in T2, without even relying on stuff that requires saves.
I kinda wish Arcane Archer had another feature that scales of intelligence (maybe your arcane shot uses or a limited bonus to damage/attack roll equal to int). That way increasing your intelligence wouldn't feel like chore just to keep your shots effective.
this is what hurts me with AA too. I guess it's nice that AA doesn't need Int for, say, AC or something, but it still FEELS like you're losing out because of the MAD.
@@youtubeisawebsite7484 Say... an alternate AC of 10 + Dex + Int could be nice. At +2 int (an easy enough starting value) you've basically got free Studded Leather. Things just get better from there. Dumping Int would be no worse than status quo (you could still wear armor and function, unlike a Monk), but investing those many Fighter ASIs into stats rather than feats at a high level would eventually pay off.
I think you could take Fey Touched instead of Telekinetic feat and take Hex as first level spell, it would help to increase the dpr, gives a decent use of BA and impose a disadvantage in STR checks for Grasping Arrow, which could be helpful against high strenght monsters. Also, misty step is a good disengage option :)
I love to take fey touched for my arcane archer. Gives you +1 int, misty step and you can take hex. Enemy gets disadvantage for str checks, 1d6 extra damage and you have a use for your bonus action. Multiclass with Chronurgy Wizard for intmod on initiative and you can force save/check rerolls. Also you can use silvery barbs as a Wizard and later haste yourself.
I saw some suggestions somewhere to tune up arcane archer without giving them more shot uses. The suggestions were to let you concentrate for one minute on the Beguiling, Banishing, Enfeebling, and Shadow arrows. This gives some more value for your shots without giving you more uses, kinda like how warlock can make their pact slots more impactful by choosing good concentration options. *And* to learn a 1st level wizard/druid spell corresponding to the magic school of each magic shot option you know, which you can cast each once for free per Long Rest. So at 3rd level if you choose Banishing Arrow and Bursting Arrow, you could choose to learn Absorb Elements (Abjuration) and Faerie Fire (Evocation). This gives you the option to choose some damaging spells if you want, or go for more utility. And potentially gives you a reason to choose one of the weaker arcane shots because you might want to learn a certain 1st level spell, like choosing Beguiling Arrow because you want to learn Silvery Barbs.
Back in the day when this was a prestige class I would roll them as a wizard mostly. The result was a wizard that relied on arrows for saving spell slots, but when a spell was needed I had them ready. Plenty of utility and solid ranged attacks. Some would argue it was a less powerful wizard or an underperforming archer, but I felt pretty capable compared to the other party members.
The biggest issue here it shows how the much reliance the Arcane Archer has on others for that forced movement. Drakewarden/ Beastmaster pets, Barbarians, telekinesis all help them but that means you give up a subclass that can stand more on it’s own and others may have to give up bonus actions and it that is the case then it works. Big ask. But I see that longbow really works for them. Thanks.
I don’t see how that is a big ask. There are so many features with forced movement that it is unlikely your party doesn’t have any, and they are more likely to use them if there is an extra 2d6 damage applied. If you really don’t want to involve party members, bump up Wisdom and grab 3 levels of Swarmkeeper Ranger for an auto proc every turn plus everything else they get front loaded.
you can just multiclass into swarmkeeper after 5th or 6th lvl if you want to make the most of this feature. It'll come somewhat late but you'll do alright before that if you pick the right ASI and feats
I think I'll make a homebrew redesign. Essentially you're playing a Wizard whose Proficiency align with Archery. You have spell slots but only for the sake of knowing and imbuing spells into your ammunition as well as limiting how many and what type of spells you can imbue. You may pull from the Wizard or Ranger spell list. Ammunition fired, regardless of hit or miss, have their spells exhausted and even if the munition may be reclaimed the spell is expended. The spell imbued within a munition can be upcasted if the spell allows. The Arcane Archer can learn spells outside of leveling if they spend x days studying an enchanted object's innate spell with x the level of the spell within the object regardless of rarity. Spells from your ammunition when triggered act as if being cast via a spell scroll with the archer the one casting the spell. All arrows imbued with a spell are Magical until expended. Lv 3: Delayed Shot. You can choose for the spell to immediately active or to trigger as your reaction. If you do not trigger this spell before the start of your next round the spell within the arrow is expended without it's effect going off. Lv 7: Empowered Shot. You can use a bonus action to expend a spell slot to empower a piece of munition to deal an extra xd6 with x being the level of Spell Slot used. This empowerment lasts 1 round and can be used any number of times. Lv 15: Zone Control. Up to twice a day you are not required to hit your target with munitions for the spell to trigger. If any creature is within 30ft of the munition they become valid targets for the imbued spell.
Is it just me or creatures hit by Grasping Arrow can only take the slashing dmg once per turn? It is written "the first time on each turn it moves" ...
Unknowingly brought banishing arrow into a particular place where spells to get "out" of the dungeon such as teleportation, indeed to move to another plane would be redirected to a certain room. That was interesting and boosted it up a bit in power.
Couldn't you stack Grasping Arrow with the Poisoner feat to get even more mileage out of it? Poisoner allows you to ignore poison resistance. Since the poison you can make gives the target disadvantage on Ability saving throws (assuming they fail it, of course - it IS a Con ST), it would be less likely for them to remove the effect.
this is probably the best use i've seen to poisoner along with using it for green dragonborn I think the feat is underpowered either way tbh, for more than a few reasons even, but it is an interesting combo that I could see being used if you can spend the 50 gold. At least it gives the feat something cool to be used with.
My first ever character was an Arcane Archer, I didn’t know much about the game though so I don’t know if it was good or bad. Nostalgia will always make me like it though. :)
Honestly love this subclass, my only grievance with it is the low amount of arcane shots use, much like the warlock feels to limiting, and that it doesn't work with crossbows of any kind feels very nit picky to me. Like if I had firearms an arcane Archer with guns sounds awesome.
@@ericm3327 awesome how's it going on with that? Actually might be playing a arcane Archer, warlock multiclass myself. Once the dm gets a new place since this week his place burned down. World really wants me to be a forever dm.
I think you've underrated shadow arrow in a group with more ranged players. Just as grasping excels in a group with more forced movement, shadow is amazing in a ranged attack group. Yourself included. Shadow arrow is burst time, it's when you'd action surge and focus fire something down. It also excels against your ranged or spellcaster enemy. Let's not forget how many spells require sight to work, it doesn't merely impose disadvantage on spell attacks, it negates many spells entirely. For these reasons, I rate shadow arrow higher, 2nd to grasping, if a little bit group dependent. It is competing for 2nd place with banishing arrow imo. I'd also emphasize telekinetic as a feat a bit more for this subclass, it fills out your turn, giving you a reliable bonus action, lets Force that movement each of your turns for grasping arrow damage, and as we're not taking crossbow expert, we're worried about things getting into mellee with us and imposing disadvantage on our ranged attacks. Telekinesis shove lets us push them off us first, before firing. All while being a half feat. Yes curved shot uses some bonus actions, coming online at 7, but that is late, and not always needed.
I think Grasping Arrow definitely has a lot of potential, but personally I think if you're trying to build around it, you really need to coordinate with party members to make sure they're actually going to be able to synergize with it. The game I'm currently in, for example, no one has forced movement abilities. Seems like just getting 2d6/round (or 0 if they're already next to their target) in this case wouldn't scale all that well. Late game I'd think monsters would be fine just tanking it over spending their actions.
Good reason to take Telekinetic then, or multiclass to Swarmkeeper ranger or maybe Dao patron warlock and take Repelling Blast and Grasp of Hadar to go with your Eldritch Blast, Hex and Spike Growth spells. But yeah, getting other party members to cooperate and coordinate is definitely a good idea.
Too bad crusher has only +1 to con or str because that and a single level dip in Dao Lock would net you a Hex per short rest for str check disadvantage, no save forced movement (so a free 2D6 from grasping shot on your turn), PB damage added once per attack from bottled respite. So with that and hex that is 4D6+3 extra damage. If you dip Dao at lvl 7. Also what would stop you from pulling out a finesse weapon on turn and hitting with booming blade when you can't disengage. You can stow the weapon for free next turn to go back to ranged stuff. This would push them away (Dao crusher) and they would have to take booming damage to close the gap.
If you can find the ability points, a warlock dip would be fantastic on this build. Hex gives disadvantage on an ability check. If you go Dao and take the crusher feat, you have guaranteed forced movement each turn. I’d estimate that this will give an extra 8d6+PB of damage for a one level dip, a bonus action, and a half feat.
Shaper shooter is great, but I would also heavily recommend posioner. As it allows you to apply 2d8 as a bonus action. Your posions ignore resistance and since the roll against posions is applied when they take damge from the arrow. Arrows that auto hit and deal dmg without a roll or half dmg gaureentee the posion procing. It says it disaprears on hit, so depending how your gm reads it, you may be able to burst posion. Plus the stronger posions you can get
I thought about this too, but the poison damage (for the poison created with the feat) isn’t dealt unless they fail a dc14 con save, which is pretty low. Becomes a lot better if stronger poison acquisition is a thing in your game though. Similar idea though is the Gift of the Chromatic Dragon feat from Fitzbans. Bonus action gives you 1 minute of 1d4 elemental or poison dmg to all of weapons damage rolls once per long rest [in addition to a reaction for resistance to an instance of a element/poison, w/ uses = to prof]
Pierceing arrow would appear to allow you to shoot through walls and doors. There is jo requirment to see thr target and it passes through all objects. It's a niche use but could be effective in certain situations.
Like many people commented here- multiclassing is pretty good with this. I think a Level 3 Fighter arcane archer with the rest of the levels in Battle Smith Artificer could be really powerful.
With the ammunition property of the bow that allows you to make a melee Attack(improvised), Could you wrathful smite with that attack as one of your attacks, then grasping arrow with the other?
Also what are the limitations of that melee attack? Or other applications of that part of the ammunition property? Any augmentation on that attack would be useful if surrounded with only a bow, or out of arrows. Booming blade maybe?
Personally have enjoyed taking Fey Touched feat to grab my Arcane Archer, not only Misty Step but, Hex. The latter spell alows you to use a bonus action to give the target disadvantage on the Grasping Arrow Strength ability check (+1d6 dmg), prior to you taking the attack action.
Ohhhhh that's dirty, I like your style.
I like it a lot, since you feel like a Ranger anyways, so you get an (for this occasion) improved Hunter's Mark. I thought about taking the Telekinetic feat for triggering the Grasping Arrow slashing damage. While your DC won't be amazing, it's a free use of the bonus action you lose by not being able to go Crossbow Expert and you get a Wisdom increase and invisible Mage Hand on top, which is never bad.
Crusher and 1 level dip daolock. Pick up hex, get a free movement when you hit, some more extra damage....
@@buraeen5735 I guess that's better, but it is also a higher investment with a lvl AND a feat which you will get later through taking that warlock level. The question is: Does the extra damage from the Dao feat count as being part of the attack itself in RAW?
@@0ff5PR1NG I agree it is harder to get to. I'm assuming it works RAW, but not entirely sure. Thought I remembered TM using it for spike growth before which seems the same to me, but I didn't do any checking to make sure.
Big brain time: When you miss, use Curving Shot to turn the arrow back at yourself, then use the Monk Reflect Projectiles to throw it again as a reaction
That is honestly a really interesting idea
If it only didn't cost a bonus action, a reaction, a ki point and the possibility of not reducing all damage at all and just damage yourself I think it could be a good idea
LOL @@facundoperez2766
But consider: funny
@@AlexMunz-bg3bc I like the way you think
1:40
Opinions like this are why I hate Hand Crossbows (or rather bonus action attack part of Crossbow Expert). When anyone thinks of a ranged build, Hand Crossbow is assumed automatically. Any other option is just unviable for them. And the worst is, in most cases they're right.
Glad you've decided to defend the proud name of Longbow here.
I mean, I think you have to take a hard look at what you consider "viable" is. A baseline fighter without subclass is viable in most campaigns. The worst monk subclass is still viable in 95% of most campaigns. I like to optimize the characters I make, but I like starting or having an idea rather than just a weapon and a feat.
I loathe the hand crossbow, not least because it didn't even exist until the late 70s and has no place in a medieval fantasy game. But I also have no interest in a "ranged" weapon with an effective range of 30 feet ... and unlike the sling (I used to hit tin cans with a sling at 40 or so yards back when I was a teenager-and I was no expert marksman), the range on the hand crossbow is fairly accurate in the game.
Hand crossbows should be 1d4 damage like in previous editions. Especially if they basically net you the bonus action attack that pole arm master gives. Would they still be good? Yes, would more players think hard on a two die drop on damage. I think so.
@@jamesbolt1003 Nah, Hand Crossbows themselves are fine. What needs nerf is the bonus action attack. I personally would remove it completely, turning Crossbow Expert into a half-feat almost exactly like Gunner. I get that people may like the flavor of rapidly firing hand crossbows, but I don't see how you can nerf it while keeping the flavor.
@@antongrigoryev6381 but it's shooting a tiny bolt from a toy gun looking crossbow. A thrown dagger is only 1d4. How does this toy earn 1d6? The point on it looks to be the size of a caltrop.
Sometimes, I feel like I'm the only person that just hates the hand crossbow. I wish it didn't exist, except maybe as a 1-2 dmg ranged poison delivery system ( with no static modifiers). My suspension of disbelief isn't strong enough to accept it being the super weapon 5e has made it.
That's fair, that tiny little weapon is somehow better to use than a longbow.
But I suppose you could flavour it to be a shortbow instead, and keep the benefits of the hand crossbow
My DM has banned the things entirely. But then he, like myself is a medieval longbow archer, and both of us have shot hand crossbows. We were not impressed to say the least. Someone trying to claim a piddly little toy crossbow could have anything close to the impact of a 160+ lb at 36 draw weight War Bow has no idea what they are talking about. Hell a medieval longbow had serious difficulty penetrating even the weak points in full plate historically, the guy wearing that armour is not even going to notice the bolt from a hand crossbow. Even worse, a hand crossbow is no faster to cock and fire than a big war bow.
So no, you are not the only person who hates the things, and I hate even more that min maxers have made it the weapon of choice for so many archer builds in AD&D.....
Certainly not the only one. It's one of the biggest Suspension of Disbelief plinkers in the game--more than Fireball, honestly.
If going for a CBE build, I think it makes a tonne of sense to do what im hulki suggests and calling it a Short Bow, but using the Hand Crossbow stats and range and such. If it's all make believe (it is) who's to say it has to look like a Hand Crossbow? So long as someone doesn't do things which require a bow and not a hand crossbow, so long as there's no actual rules advantage and just gets less silly, should be fine.
Completely agree. I don’t think I have ever considered giving any of my characters a crossbow. Even though CBE is a great feat, actual bows just look cooler.
I honestly think that 1-2 dmg is a bit of an overkill as a nerf, as you're basically saying a mechanically drawn bolt is the equivalent delivery system compared to someone's lungs. (A Blowgun already deals 1 + Dex Mod in damage.)
Though I do agree that the damage should be reduced a bit, turning that d6 into a d4. As you stated, the Hand Crossbow is more intended to deliver poisons rather than raw damage. So I think a d4 fits well into its constructed (and expensive, 75gp) nature, while not encroaching on other superior (and cheaper) ranged options.
In addition, the Range on the Hand Crossbow should be reduced from 30/120 to 20/80. (Watching a few videos of them, the Hand Crossbow has a dubious accuracy at 30ft and has issues penetrating at 100+ feet.)
The Hand Crossbow definitely shouldn't be a high pick for a Fighter or Ranger, but even with these changes, the Hand Crossbow would and should still feel at home in the hands of the Rogue.
If these reductions still arent enough, you're honestly better off either banning or regulating what weapons the Sharpshooter Feat allows +10 damage bonus applies to or to the Crossbow Expert Feat.
I’ve said it before and i’ll likely say it again, i never get tired of being mentioned in Chris’ videos. This is content i am more than happy to support.
I feel like it's worth noting that Shadow Arrow, if they fail the save, sets you up to have advantage for the rest of your attacks this turn. A great time to Action Surge and lay down some Sharpshooter hits, especially if you got Elven Accuracy.
It's also beneficial for everyone else on your team. You're giving advantage to other ranged combatants like the rogues, rangers, and spellcasters using attack roll spells and cantrips. It's also going to benefit e.g. the Paladin who took polearm master and sentinel to try and tank for the party, as he can just stand 10' away and poke the bad guy with advantage for free.
Would an Eladrin make a good choice for an elven subrace, if you want Elven Accuracy?
@@alanschaub147 yeah, I think so. That teleport will also help you get in position, and get away if they get in melee. Plus, since Arcane Archer can't use Crossbow Expert, you don't have as much competition for your bonus action
I feel like a Samurai does the Sharpshooter + Elven Accuracy thing better. No saves involved and if you drop your target before running out of attacks (which could happen while action surging) you still have advantage against any other targets you switch to since it's a buff on you, not a debuff on them.
@@yhnujmik987 You're right that it does that better, so Arcane Archer would be more about versatility than specialization
The AA really only needs one fix, scaling uses as prof bonus instead of a flat 2. Although some of the weaker shots could use a damage increase before level 18; maybe at level 11?
Yeah, 1d8 at 11th level and another 1d8 at 18th sounds like it would even out the progression, just like either using Proficiency Bonus or, as Cris suggests, adding a shot at 7th, 11th and 15th or 18th would even out progression as well. But if a DM were to add shots using either of these methods, I'd suggest dumping Ever-Ready Shot, as these features really are quite powerful.
But the thing is, the Arcane Archer doesn't really need to be more *powerful.* It just needs to even out its progression a bit. ;-)
And maybe let it's features work with all ranged/thrown weapons
@@morganpetros9635 Well I was think of d6s not d8s. Evening out the power progression was exactly my point. Instead of doubling the bonus damage at 18, gradually increase it by one die until doubled at 18. Tracking and piecing shots might get an extra d6 that way, but they are the weakest options anyways.
@@devildham Nah, I think that makes crossbow expert too powerful.
I would disagree with regards to increasing available shots, because I see the AA more like a 1/3 warlock, looking at their ranged shots equating to eldritch blast and the arcane shots like their pact slots. This would then lead to damage increases at lvl 10 and 15.
"8 encounters a day"
"Nah man, 5 encounters a day"
Me, a DM who sometimes runs an entire session without having any combat *laughs nervously*
Imo, 8 or 5 encounters a day is a fighting game, not a roleplaying game.
You're right.
I usualy do only 2 or 3.. deadlyer and fewer combats..
Both are very reasonable. My games - both the ones I DM and the ones I play in - tend to have 0 combat on most days, or maybe one unusual one (usually meaning there were a bunch of ways to handle a thing and the players woke up and chose violence). But then you hit your 'dungeon crawl' days where they're in enemy territory and then a lot of encounters can certainly make sense.
Wargamers are a minority. MOST people are running combats caused by narrative. They don't just bash on enemies all day. It's boring.
i for sure run the game with 3 to 4 encounters in a busy day. 1 on a rest day. I sometimes get to 6 when the “pressure is on” and the “clock is ticking.” You should see those PCs sweat, but they are selling themselves short.
Grasping Arrow also works on literally everything. Immune to grappled condition? This isn't the grappled condition. Incorporeal? Doesn't matter. It still works. Throw in enemies with a legendary action that involves moving? Sure you can use that... But you eat damage for it.
I'd save this one for big, scary enemies with a lot of health. Most fights go 2-3 rounds, so it would hardly affect things unless you're dealing with a damage sponge.
Nonstandard spells and effects that dodge traditional immunities are invaluable late-game. Which ironically makes game effects that are kind of pants like Confusion suddenly valuable to have as a backup.
I think its bad on its own, as a 3 level fighter splash it might actually not be terrible because it gets very little meaningful from levels 4+ compared to other fighters. So take 3 levels of it (maybe 4 for the ASI) then take an archery based ranger for the rest of your career. You'll only have 2 arcane shot options, but you can pick the 2 most iconic to your character concept.
A disgusting combination for an Arcane Archer/Ranger would be to take the archery style with ranger, and the martial adept style with fighter, take the intimidating battlemaster maneuver (frightened condition) and when you use the Grasping Arrow ALSO apply the frightened condition, which disadvantages ability checks. Now if they want to remove the vines its not just an athletics check its a disadvantaged athletics check.
I think it's completely the opposite. It's so niche if you are going to do it you might as well solo class so you get the benefits of being a full fight like that third extra attack. Going ranger you will be delaying extra attack and require intel and Wis.
thing is, fighters also peak in power from 4 to 6 because of feats
You don't get more shots but you get two feats if you want, and than you can move to another class if you desire. If you're starting fighter there is no sense in not going straight to 5 for extra attack anyway so it's easy to imagine another lvl for a feat.
I like the combo you mentioned, and tbh this subclass pairs well with most rangers (gloomstalker, fey wanderer and swarmkeeper notably)
@@Booklat1 if you are playing a martial, you should choose which you want to focus on imho. otherwise you are having wasted features in duplicated extra attack. For the treantmonk testcase sort of campaign, I would start 1 level in fighter - I like con save and multiclassing into ranger gives you a skill, 5 into ranger, then my last 2-3 levels into fighter before going back to ranger. Missing out action surge until later sucks, but you have to choose whether you want consistent or bursty damage and the consistent extra attack is probably better than 1 action surge. For bonus action, I might suggest you actually go beastmaster ranger so you get a personal "tank" and a way to weaponize your bonus action without having to go crossbow expert.
I like it the other way around. A two, three, or four level dip in Ranger would give you both the Archery fighting style plus Defense or Superior Technique without using a feat, not to mention a limited suite of first level spells. You might as well concentrate on one of those if you're focused primarily on being a Fighter and they could feel like additional arcane options beyond your two arrows. 17 levels of Arcane Archer with 3 levels of Monster Slayer added in the mid game is basically Hawkeye.
Also if you're trying to focus on Grasping Arrow, Rangers can also learn Spike Growth. Difficult terrain minus ten feet of movement could be crippling, and is a natural fit for a party planning on abusing forced movement.
Honestly, the number of special shots you could take should've been based on the character's PB bonus instead of having the 2 pact slot dilemma again.
That makes sense. Talk to a DM and see if they would allow this in a Homebrew campaign
Off topic, but Prestidigitation is amazing, especially for evil or anti-establishment characters. Nothing cleans up a crime scene like Prestidigitation!
I played a necromancer that used prestidigitation to clean up after his skeleton minions murdering a poor drunk dude. Naturally the body did not go to waste and my army increased that night...
An old ninja assasin character of mine always kept a wand of this cantrip for pretty much that purpose.
@@napoleontheclown Why would you murder a poor drunk dude?!?
@@kibbo86 I didn't murder him. My skeletons murdered him. They were told to kill any intruders in my room at the inn and the DM concluded a drunk guy wandering in and getting shanked would be funny. She was correct.
@@kibbo86 it's what my character would do
I'm especially happy with this because, when I'm building an actual archer, I generally don't like the flavor of a crossbow.
Solution: reflavor your hand crossbow as a shortbow with shittier range than normal
@@bodbyss It is absolutely impossible for me to image a shortbow that can be fired one handed. Of course, I can imagine firing a crossbow one handed, but my mind stops when I try to explain how a crossbow can be reloaded one handed.
After some brainstorming, I can imagine how to fire a shortbow one-handed. you have a belt around your torso, you have a hook on that belt to hold the bowstring next to the arrow . You move your arm close to your body and catch the arrow and the string. then you push the bow out. You have a thumb ring that attaches near the head of the arrow. with the arrow nocked, you can unhook, aim the bow, and release the arrow with a flick of the thumb. But this is a stunt, not a practical way to gain an extra attack with your off-hand every six seconds. But I still have no idea how to reload a crossbow one-handed.
@@shishkabobby RAW you need to have a free hand to load a bolt into the hand crossbow (not cause of loading, but because of ammunition) so you can't fire a hand crossbow more than once if you don't have a free hand.
So just use the shortbow normally and have your other hand empty.
I'm always impressed with your analysis. I finally joined your Patreon. Thank you for making me a more fun player at the table and a better dungeon master.
Idk why exactly but this post just made me want to go to his Patreon too haha
An important thing to remember about longbow vs handcrossbow is range. Sure, in a dungeon crawl it may not matter much, but bonus action attack or not, if you're getting two or more rounds of free attacks before the enemy can even begin to threaten you because you're several hundred feet away, in those situations longbow easily outperforms handcrossbow.
The battle master is standing 400' away doing maneuvers
I think a telekinetic arcane archer could be good. Gives you something to do with your BA if all your sharpshooter shots hit. Plus it gives an intelligence boost
I like this, kind of seems like a natural extension of their other abilities like redirecting arrows and such
Dunno. It only has a range of 30 feet. If I'm a ranged character, I probably would want to take full advantage of the range and stay as far as I can from the enemies. Doubly so considering that we don't have CE and can't shoot if we get into melee, in which case we'll need to spend a whole turn to disengage if enemies get to us.
@@antongrigoryev6381 Your still a fighter with a d10 hit die, and the monsters speed will be reduced by 10 feet automatically and you can push it 5 feet away. Even assuming your the only one with forced movement it is still a strong move.
Fey Touched with Hex works well as well, give them disadvantage on their athletic checks and more damage per shot? Yes please
@@MarcLucksch Oh, *YES.* This is a great way to get Hex without dipping into warlock and having to improve your CHA on a build that's already pretty MAD. After all, you can improve your INT and use that for the spell's DC instead of Charisma. Only problem is, you could only cast it once per long rest unless you multiclassed into a spellcaster class, but then you could go Wizard ... and I love the Shield spell for lightly armored builds ... ;-)
While Peircing arrow is quite weak, it's worth noting that if your DM gives you specialized magic arrows, such as an arrow of slaying. Piercing arrow allows you to apply their effects to multiple creatures.
The combo Arcane Archer with Grasping Arrow + a Warlock with Hex and repulsive blast, cursing Strength checks, has really too many synergies! It can really be devastating - likely is just a win.
Just take fey touched
I love the concept of an arcane archer! I want to make it work well, I considered multiclassing with arcane trickster, 2 attacks, consistent damage, and more spells and utility.
Battlesmith artificer to attack with int and get the repeating shot infusion for your longbow!
@@adamkaris ooooh didnt think about the artificer touch! I like that!
Battlesmith is a reasonable way to go; I also considered dipping into it on my Hexbow. It wouldn’t have been until really high levels, though; too much good Hexblade stuff before then.
@@adamkaris Battlesmith also gives you a pet that can take the Help action, giving you Advantage on one attack ... which helps offset the -5 you're going to take using Sharpshooter. Or possibly two if you choose to learn to build a homunculus.
@@adamkaris I think battlesmith works best the other way around, dipping into arcane archer rather than an arcane archer dipping into battlesmith.
Because you are building with Int as your primary stat, you would want battlesmith as soon as possible so you start there. But if after level 3 you go arcane archer, you're not getting extra attack until level 8, and that's rough.
So arcane archer dipping into battlesmith is only good if you build with int as your primary stat and start close to level 8.
Yeah, not getting more uses of the special shots at 7 and 10 does suck. You are getting diminishing returns on your arcane shot choices, because (unlike spells) you don’t get access to new options. Battlemaster has that problem too, technically, but has more maneuvers to choose from and gets more uses of the maneuvers earlier.
Still, I agree that the arcane archer is not bad overall, and is underrated. Good video, as usual.
Piercer feat plus heavy crossbow
I just did some math for Fighters, so I thought I'd share. People often say the hand crossbow with crossbow expert is the best combination at low levels, but I just found some love for the heavy crossbow and piercer feat. With custom lineage you start with an 18 dex, instead of a 16 or 17. I'm not going to show all calculations, but the average damage for a regular hit with a d10 and piercer is 6.75 instead of the average 5.5. This leaves the hand crossbow with a hefty 13 average damage to 10.75 average damage lead on regular hits. This is where most people stop doing their homework, so I will continue with some damage per round calculations for you.
Hand Crossbow Expert Heavy Crossbow Piercer
Average Regular Damage 13 10.75
Average Critical Damage 20 22.75
To Hit AC 13 average damage 9.45 8.66
Crossbow Expert still wins right. 9.45 vs 8.66 is better. Let's dig a little deeper and remember a couple things. The Heavy Crossbow Piercer has one better AC, initiative, dexterity saves and skill checks, and doesn't use up your bonus action. So what happens in a 4 round fight when you have to start using your resources. I'll look at first and second/third levels.
4 round fight using second 8.27 8.66
wind
4 round fight using second 9.45 10.25
wind and action surge
My conclusion is that the hand crossbow expert is better in generic fights, but when it hits the fan, the Heavy Crossbow Piercer pulls in the lead. Now, depending on your dm's style, the 0 foot range of the hand crossbow expert might be better than the 100 foot short range of the heavy crossbow. A fighter can always pull out a rapier and shield at 0 feet, while still being able to utilize the benefits of the piercer feat. Between 30 and 100 feet, there is no contest as the heavy crossbow won't be at disadvantage.
I hope you found this interesting,
Chris
I'd homebrew the addition, that, at the appropriate levels and in addition to the various Arcane Shots, the Arcane Archer gets Cordon of Arrows, Melf's Acid Arrow, Flame Arrows, Lightning Arrow, and Swift Quiver.
Lean into the "arcane" a little more.
Grasping arrow + hex (str penalty)+ eldrichblast /(repeling blast) looks really nice. Arcane archer / warlock team combo can be awesome.
And genie warlock with crusher can force movement on a hit.
@@BittyVids Oh yeah, and have spike growth for more damage instead of hex.
Hex is there to give disadvantage on the Athletics check to escape the grasping arrow
I had an arcane archer in a campaign, and he did absolutely insane amounts of damage. Especially at 11+, between 3 attacks/ round, action surge, and sharpshooter, he and the barbarian could often do 200-250 dmg to a foe in one round of combat. I literally had to balance encounters by giving bosses hordes of minions just so the archer couldn't burn the boss in 1 or 2 rounds.
Ah, but that only works if the Arcane Archer can't see the BBEG and the rest of the party doesn't have any kind of ranged forced movement to use on it ... ;-)
Everything you listed is great but not arcane archer exclusive. Any fighter can do it
@@ericmunnisjr4763 in fact, samurais and battlemasters can do it better than AAs
AA's gameplan: enemy fails Shadow Arrow save, Sharpshooter, death
Samurai Gameplan: fighting spirit, sharpshooter, Death
Shadow Arrow works on creatures that are immune to the Blinded condition.
For Bursting Arrow, I would have also pointed out the friendly fire. You can't choose to avoid allies with this one - if they're within 10ft of the target, they get hurt automatically, no save.
I was also going to mention Friendly Fire. Bursts are very dangerous.
I would argue save DC is the biggest downside to the arcane archer, because if it scaled with dex like the battlemaster, I could see the justification for only 2 shots as opposed to maneuvers. For a ranged character, the arcane shots effects are better than maneuvers.
If you think about it? The AA subclass makes the Fighter MAD. It was probably on purpose to make it seem more balanced. But I took it and ran with it, multiclassed into Wizard.
@@snazzyfeathers that's a great idea, shield and absorb elements can balace less investment into constitution (or at least that's how i would do it because you are already far away from the enemies being a ranged character). Also teleportation effects
I think that an 8 encounter day with only one short rest is incredibly unlikely. It would balance it on a 5 encounter day with 2 short rests. That’s what usually happens in my experience.
I believe that's kind of the point. These numbers are intentionally the worst case scenario (or close to it) so pretty much everyone can depend on seeing these numbers, or better, at their table. Anything else and, since this is the internet, you end up with people saying a build doesn't work at a serious table, or that TM is fudging the numbers to make things look better then they would be in play.
...That's my take at least
@@mozartdminor It's the worst case scenario for a short rest class, sure, but we're talking about a lot more than short rest classes. If we're comparing classes and subclasses, as TM is, this will have the effect of boosting long rest classes above short rest classes, since the short rest classes suffer so much having only a single short rest for 8 encounters. So TM *is* fudging the numbers to make things better then they would be in play, just for the other classes.
I use 6 encounters and 2 short rests with 3 rounds per encounter. I think this one is the most fair to DPR, Long Rest and Short Rest classes. There is worse case scenarios for all of them, but none of them should ever be more than a 25% difference. And if there is, it'll be quickly visible.
At our table we rarely take 2 short rests, 1 or none is more likely because there’s almost always a time limit or chase component at our table - straight exploration, dungeon crawling is atypical.
Well, that's your experience.
Thank you SO much for doing a longbow build. I’m all for optimizing, but for me it’s more about how do I make a character I want to build turn out viable. It doesn’t need to be the ultimate min-maxed build. So bring on the longbows, the Dex-based fighters, the dual welders and the fairy enchanter mind-control builds!
You definitely turned my mind around on this one, and in particular on how a combination of an arcane archer and a Warlock with hex and repelling blast could be incredible--particularly considering that repelling blast can be used on every shot, and hex can give them disadvantage on the athletics check to escape.
I could see a build like this, especially since Grasping Shot and Burst Shot don't allow saving throws, and thus the Arcane Archer doesn't really need the highest INT for a multiclass warlock Of course, if you go Warlock you're losing out on a lot of extra attacks ... but I guess the big thing there is whether the campaign is going to 20th level or ending at 10th or 11th.
But of course, there are other (and likely more efficient) ways to use forced movement for a warlock (cough DAOLOCK cough), but this is certainly a nice gimmick. I wonder, though, if I was going to multiclass an Arcane Archer, whether going wizard for a few levels wouldn't be a better idea just so I could take the Shield spell. I grant you, it wouldn't do much for DPR (would likely even reduce it or delay it quite a bit), but I like having more than just a pair of metal-studded leather skivvies between me and the enemy. :-D
@@morganpetros9635 Oh I meant a team of two characters, a warlock and an arcane archer, but yes, the multiclass would be solid as well--although in that case I think I'd rather just stay fighter and grab Hex via Fey Touched.
@@ColinKillick Only problem with that is you only get to cast the spell once per day. That can be useful, but it's a very limited resource. However, taking just a few levels of wizard could alleviate that problem ... at the cost of your 4th attack and likely the 18th-level damage boosts. But it all depends on how long the campaign is going to last. If it's going to 20th, I would likely not multiclass this build at all. But if it was ending between 10th-14th, I'd likely take a few levels of wizard along with Fey Touched so I could not only have Hex in my arsenal, but (as I said) Shield as well. In fact, I think Hex from Fey Touched alone would likely add more DPR to the build than Piercer, and getting it even one more time daily would likely improve things dramatically. The only other multiclass I could see as decent (and again, only if the campaign was going to end before 15th level) would be taking only the two no-save Arcane Shots, dumping INT and multiclassing to ranger after 3rd level so I could use Hunter's Mark and Spike Growth. Hunter's Mark offers a mild damage bonus like Hex, and Spike Growth would add pretty dramatically to the forced-movement pain. ;-)
The extra 2d6 damage only applies once during the Warlock's turn no matter how many shots they get, btw.
It's still good, the Hex can keep the effect active for longer, and an extra 2d6 damage per round (4d6 if the enemy still tries to move anyway) is pretty great when you're basically just getting it on top of what you'd normally be doing, though.
One thing i would like to note, as scrolling through some of the comments I did not notice this. But at 22:00, it goes into Grasping Arrow effects. This DOES NOT work the way it was explained. the damage on movement is explicitly only applied once per turn, not every time it moves. It specifically states 'The first time it moves'. So only on the first movement on a turn would it take the slashing damage, not every time.
It is still a decent ability, but not nearly as powerful as the video makes it out to be.
Cheese grater strategies revolve around "each turn" meaning turn as in each individual creature's turn. -Similar to how a rogue can deal sneak attack "once per turn" on it's turn, but then potentially again as a reaction on another creature's turn, such as with opportunity attacks.
Elemental Bane may be a more direct comparison "The first time each turn the affected target takes damage of the chosen type the target takes an extra 2d6 damage of that type." -so members of a party squad would each benefit from this spell the first time they deal that element damage type to that creature.
When people exploit cheese grating they are arguing that "... the first time on each turn it moves 1 foot or more without teleporting" is meant to apply in this multi-turn manner, otherwise it would be worded more possessively to specify the creature's turn, like with a cleric's Divine Strike "Once on each of your turns...". So something to the effect of "... the first time on its turn that it moves 1 foot or more without teleporting" or " the first time on each turn it moves itself 1 foot or more..."
@@elliotbryant3459 that's a very interesting point. And I suppose it could be RAW, but I think RAI was ment to be once per round.
I think you'll get a lot more out of Ranger where the core attack and defence is the same for most levels of play. Action Surge may be quite powerful but the flexibility of spells AND ranger class features are just so much fun and can be powerful even if not as obviously powerful as Action Surge.
As someone playing an Arcane Archer, thanks for defending the merits of the subclass. Yeah, there are more optimal damage dealers. I'm at lvl 6 right now and I started with grasping arrow and bursting arrow. Having an early AOE option at range has come in handy, and I'm glad I hadn't take banishing arrow that early. Also shadow arrow is(for most but not all enemies) a good way to give yourself advantage if you can get it to proc on your first shot because you can take advantage of being unseen for your shots and the shots of your allies until your next turn. But then again, the likelihood of passing the save until you get your INT higher is the challenge.
Take fey touched feat for hex
If you want the poison damage from grasping arrow to be reliable,
Multiclass into Horizon Walker Ranger and use Planar Warrior to turn all that attack's damage to force,
plus the additional 1d8(2d8) force damage.
Also access to Ranger spells like Zephyr Strike, Hunter's Mark, and Absorb Elements.
Or use Favored Foe if it's the first turn of combat or if you aren't concentrating on something, since it can be applied, on hit.
This is a great video! Arcane Archer is much better than people realize.
As an additional note, you can use banishing arrow as an escape for allies. It’s not the best option but if your barbarian is swarmed getting them out of the way for a turn can be great.
I can already hear the outraged howls of my party's barbarian now as someone shoots him in the backside so the wizard can fireball all the bugbears while he's out of the way. I wonder if you can voluntarily fail a save like that. I'd allow it, but with the presence now of at least one spell for which the description specifically tells you whether or not voluntarily failing the save is possible, I one must wonder ... ;-)
When we first did this was in a three party brawl and to help our sorcerer out our barbarian took got in the way of the most of the mele fighters for the other two groups. Our Druid was helping but needed to go attack the casters of one of the parties. The barbarian held out a round or two more but then was close to dropping while still surrounded.
The Dm ruled that the bad guys didn’t know what banishing arrow did so they moved when he disappeared and he was fairly safe when he came back.
@@morganpetros9635 If I'm not mistaken, you cannot willingly fail a saving throw unless it specifically states it, but in the end its up to the DM. I typically allow players to willingly fail any Strength or Dexterity saving throw as well as many Intelligence, Charisma, or Wisdom saves, but Constitution is typically your body naturally fighting things off so my group has agreed those cannot be willingly failed outside of a spell or effect specifically stating you can. One side note to this is something Jeremy Crawford stated, that being incapacitated or dominated would effect this. I don't allow someone under either of these effects to willingly fail any saving throw unless the thing dominating them wishes for them to do so.
One thing that feels kinda bad about Arcane Archer: you get two magic shots per short rest. Contrast an Eldritch Knight or Bladesinger, who gets a magical sword attack every round with cantrips like Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade, plus various spells to use a few times per day for big control effects. If the Arcane Archer had a few cantrip-level options you could use at will (maybe even at the cost of multiple attacks) or minor augments to attacks (like Eldritch Blast invocations, or Way of the Open Hand monk effects), it'd help the class overall feel more special. Even if the peaks of the Arcane Archer are worthwhile, it's important to do cool things in the valleys as well, so that you actually feel *ARCANE*.
yea it really sucks. What I, and other DMs in my group, have done is moved it to prof/day for magic shot. Still not a ton of uses but it helps and doesnt let it get crazy out of control.
@@vaalnailo5789 I guess I mind less having few "spell slot" style abilities, but it'd be wonderful to have some Cantrip-style ones, too.
Warlocks spend most of their career with 2 spell slots. But they've got invocations and Eldritch Blast to feel special. Many "magic martial" characters have Booming Blade and Green Flame. Arcane Archer having something like those without resource cost would be sweet, and you'd feel ARCANE all the time.
@@thebitterfig9903 Yea, even if it's something as small as an extra d4 (since fighters get so many attacks) of an elemental damage type per arrow or something like that. Just that lil bit extra can make it *feel* magical. Just that extra spice.
Grasping arrow forces the target to make ability checks to try and remove the arrow? Pair that with the hex spell, and make the target even less likely to succeed on that strength check.
42:30 note if you choose goblin then you can't use longbow effectively as the heavy property causes disadvantage for small creatures
Eh, shortbow is only 1 point average less per hit so it's not that significant. Fury of the small makes up for it, IMO.
@@napoleontheclown I agree, just an addition I thought I'd make
This has some of my favorite flavor for any subclass. My only issue with it is the hard limit to the arcane arrows, as it doesn't feel great to only have two uses of something and essentially be out of all of your subclass's unique features. Earlier this year I designed an entirely non-magic archer martial archetype, and the core of that design was the idea that you could expend a certain number of attacks to use different types of arrows. For one example, you could use two attacks to create and fire a tether arrow, and bind yourself or a creature or object in place. I've found that it works pretty well!
I saw a guy use Arcane Archer effectively in tier 1. He waited until he critted and then used bursting arrow and practically one-shotted the evil druid BBG. It was essentially a fireball at level 3 or 4 (probably 4). And besides that, he also consistently did well even when not using his arcane shots, just as a halfling archer fighter.
Sharpshooter really does help with range on a Hand Crossbow but I've been in fights where having even more range was very helpful. In a dungeon-heavy game I'd agree it's not a big deal, but in a wilderness, nautical, or even a city game, it can matter.
Anyway, nice analysis, I really changed my mind about Arcane Archer from it. I think short rest type classes generally have a problem with not getting enough power refreshes given most "work days"... this is true for the Monk, Warlock, and often the Fighter.
My arcane archer was really bored with his abilities as he levelled up, due to the limited uses of arcane shot. I gave him a feature at level 10 to be able to cast Lightning Arrow and Flame Arrow up to his INT modifier number of times per long rest, and he can change the damage type to Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Poison or Thunder. At 15th level both spells upcast to 4th level, and at level 18 they upcast at to 5th level. He also gets at level 18 the ability to cast Swift Quiver once per long rest, and while concentrating on SQ enemies have disadvantage on saves against his Arcane Shots.
He's level 14 rn, expected to hit 15 by the end of Descent into Avernus and from there the campaign can go anywhere.
For this sort of build (i.e. archer that uses a longbow instead of crossbow cheese), I'd go 5 levels of Fighter (in Arcane Archer, Grasping Arrow) for extra attack, archery fighting style, and action surge, but combine with 15 levels of Rogue (Assassin). - And maybe start out in Rogue for Dex saves (even though it'd push Extra Attack back to level 6).
40:40 this point about finding magic weapons illustrates something that I find to be a greatly underused and under appreciated feature in D&D, one of the coolest ways to spend your downtime and gold: crafting! The only prerequisite to make a magic item is Proficiency in Arcana and appropriate ingredients. For a simple +1 weapon, this wouldn't even require any materials very difficult to get. So its not just having an Artificer in the party, but anyone who has Arcana Proficiency, and a little down time.
This is my favorite downtime activity and why I give many of my characters Arcana Proficiency. Then I don't have to be reliant on the DM or the module for which awesome magic items I get; I can _make_ many of them myself!
One of my favorite moments with my Bladesinger was when we found a corpse of a dragon and I harvested its scales and teeth and other parts to make a Dragon's Wrath Scimitar!
Seeking arrow is a good counter for invisibility. It's a bit niche to encounter it. But when you do, you want something like seeking arrow. Something fighters won't normaly get (save maybe a 8th level eldritch knight picking up see invisible)
I picked it up right off the bat because my character is a bounty hunter and the flavor just felt too perfect.
This has opened my eyes to a subclass I wrote off and have seen written off since it's inception. Thanks Chris, makes me wanna try one.
Before the pandemic I played ADventurer's League at least once a weak and have organically brought up three wizards from L1 to L17. This is for both the canned adventures and hardcovers like Tales from the Yawning Portal. I have never had a workday with more than four encounters per long rest. The vast majority of workdays never got past three encounters and a plurality was 2 encounters per long rest.
And that's not just a quirk of AL. I also play homebrew games, both at discord and kinda-sorta offline through video chat. 0-1 encounters per long rest is standard.
So I automatically get suspicious at anyone who talks about the 5-8 encounters per long rest paradigm as if it were a real thing and not just the game designers not knowing how people actually play. Chances are that they don't actually reflect upon their and more importantly other peoples' past experiences.
For piercing arrow, it would depend on how your DM rules, but it specifically states that creatures take damage as if hit by an arrow. You might be able to convince your DM that RAI you could apply sharpshooter - especially if the alternative is you just always use grasping arrow.
Another reason to take piercing arrow over bursting arrow or others is that it lets you shoot through objects and, since it states creatures take damage as if hit by an arrow, you could reason that allows you to apply banishing arrow or grasping arrow. I don't know how a DM would adjudicate it, but you could pull off things like shooting a piercing arrow through a wall of force or a wall of stone and banishing the caster on the other side?
But you can only do 1 arcane shot per turn
@@adamkaris Good catch.
I agree, my immediate thought when I saw that wording was you declare you are making an attack with an arrow, declare it is a sharpshooter attack, and then apply your arcane shot to the arrow. Your dm may claim thats not the way the shot is intended to work which is totally fair but I think considering how limited the shots are used taking advantage of a feat in this situation is just as fair
Rai?
Another cool thing is, if you can get +3 arrows or even arrows with extra effects on them (e.g., Divine Favor), you can apply that extra damage across all enemies hit.
Super late, but I found a build for Arcane Archer after my character died last weekend; the core concept is battlesmith artificer and arcane archer to scale int and fighter save DC but i made some changes for the sake of cool flavor.
Variant Human; take War Caster for feat.
Artificer for levels 1 to 3; take Battle Smith so you can attack off of Intelligence and Repeating Shot infusion onto Longbow (no more ammo)
Fighter for levels 4 to 9; pick up arcane archer and Magic Initiate (Wizard) for two damaging cantrips and a 1st level at Fighter 4; and Fighter 6 can be a personal choice
Now, your firebolt and Ray of Frost essentially only require verbal components and can be fired from your bow :) plus you get some nice utility spells like Faerie Fire and Grease
Seemed like a bit fun and fitting flavor - considering magic archer?
Edit; Pretty sure, this is by no means is this "optimal" though lol
Yea, I'm a big Grasping Shot is awesome preacher.
One thing I think is neat about Piercing Arrow is that it applies the damage to targets as if they were hit by the arrow. In our games, magic arrows with extra damage are common enough. So a +3 arrow, for example, does its bonus damage on all targets. Toss in something like Divine Favor and that applies too. It's still not close to beating Grasping Shot, but I think it gives it an edge on Bursting Arrow at my table.
Glad i found this video! I have a love for really Understimated and Underappreciated Subclasses, finding ways to boost the Underdogs (Yes, my favorite Classes are Monk and Ranger, why do you ask?). I know that a class should stand in it's own, but honest Arcane Archers work best as a multiclass.
Build 1:
15 Levels Arcane Archer / 5 Levels Battle Smith Artificer.
The most Boring, the Most Obvious and most effective.
Spells make everything better, and your infusions allow to have variety to your build, as well as offering different options like your Blinding Infusions, or Spellwrought Tattoo for Find Familiar and give advantage on a Critical Attack.
However, being able to use your Intelligence Modifier to Attack means, that you are an Intelligence based Hexblade. You only need Intelligence, nothing more, nothing less. Most of the demerits of Arcane Archer drop with this dip.
Hey, and guess what? I'mma tell you a little secret: Artificers get Catnap! So if you're willing to take your Artificer to level 9, then you might get 6 uses of your Arcane Shot per day, even 8 if you are allowed to short rest more than once.
Build 2:
11 levels of Fighter / 3 Levels of Shepard Druid / 6 Levels of Gloomstalker Ranger
This one's a bit more my style, the Druid Levels are honestly optional, just Fighter and Ranger would work.
"But wait, you need a high int for your Arcane Shot DC!"
No, we don't. I'm only taking Grasping Arrow, and Bursting Arrow, none of them require Saving Throws.
"But what about the ability Check to get rid of the Branches?"
You activated mt Trap Card! Rangers (and Druids) have a little spell called Ensnaring Strike. When you hit them with a Weapon Attack, vines appear and restrain them, they make a Strength Saving Throw and if they fail, they are restrained by the Magical Vines. They need to make a successful Athletics Check to Escape.
With the same arrow, you can basically burden your opponent twice, aplkying Grasping Arrow AND Ensnaring Strike. If they manage to escape from one, they still wasted their turn and they most likely waste another turn to get rid of their other restrains. All the while taking damage in the process.
All the benefits still apply, while massively controlling one big enemy on the field.
"But why Druid?" Shepard Druids get quite a powerful healing aura and Summon Beast can be quite effective while you don't have Arcane Shot Options, as well as better Spell Slots. This is optional, tho.
Build 3:
14 Levels Arcane Archer / 6 Levels Genie Warlock
Who said Spike Growth, Eldritch Smite and Grasping Arrow on the same build?! Me.
Again, no need to invest in Intelligence when we could care less about our Save DC here.
Best case Scenario, your enemy is prone, -10 feet of Movement, lost a turn and in a Field of Spikes which will damage them if they dare try to escape the field. And after they finally escape, you can push them back in with Repelling Eldtrich Blasts. Also you can fly now. Congrats.
Also remember Catnap? Genie Warlocks can do it without expending Spell Slots, that requires 10 Levels Though.
When you mentioned forced movement and it dealing damage for forced movement per turn, not per round, I realised why this was so good. Until then, I didn't really see HOW MUCH DAMAGE this can really deal. If you have 6 players, and let's say half of them can inflict forced movement, then this deals 6d6 damage automatically and another 2d6 on turns where the target moves themself. This may only work until a successful strength athletics check is made, but there are many target with low strength
And I didn't mention the hex spell, but I should have. Add the hex spell we can give disadvantage on that check with no saving throw.
Party member warlock with repelling blast and disadvantage on strength checks from hex?
@@TreantmonksTemple You don't even need Hex. 5E D&D monsters are actually really crappy at Athletics checks. Hill Giants have a score of +5 and they're on the high end. There are some outliers like the Korred and the Fire Giant, but it's not out of the question for something like a 1st-level Barbarian to successfully outgrapple a Pit Fiend.
@@TreantmonksTemple I was wondering why you didn't mention Hex! Hex has incredible synergy with Fighter already, and actually being able to utilize the disadvantage on an ability check portion is just gravy on top. I was thinking the best time to pick up Hex would be instead of Piercer by taking Magic Initiate (Warlock), and you even get the advantage of picking up some excellent utility from cantrips like Minor Illusion and Mage Hand.
@@adonyx1 This is ... problematic ... with a build that has CHA 8. Probably better to let an actual warlock, or maybe an Aberrant Mind sorcerer, cast this spell for you.
Underrated? Maaaan I don’t know how You’re gonna argue this, but I‘m intrigued..
I've paired the AA with a Necromancer Wizard. The idea was to send out the minions and then sit back and fire arrows.
one dirty necromancer combo if the party can pull it off, is one ally casting elemental bane [fire] onto an enemy, while the wizard casts flame arrows and distributes them to to the skeleton archers -and any other bow user in the mix. 12 arrows that once per creature's turn deals 4d6+Modifiers (+Prof for undead minions) and bypasses fire resistance on a hit. Granted it helps if the target is lower AC since skeletons only have +4 to hit]. And should the wizard-archer get a kill with their shot using one of these arrows they also regain 6hp lol!
Key word was "first time" and "1foot or more" not every 1 foot of movement on its turn. Still good. Easy fix is arcane shots increase with your profciceny bonus.
Increasing the number of shot uses equal to your Proficiency Bonus or having it increase at the feature levels is definitely something that would help it out. I'd also like to see a better scaling for damage, either starting at 1d6 at 3rd and increasing by 1d6 at 7th, 15th, and 18th, or starting at 2d6 and increasing at 10th and 18th. To me it just seems a bit silly having to wait for any noticeable damage boost all the way to 18th level when the Battle Master dice increase in size at 10th and 18th level (though it's hardly a comparison, it would be nice to have consistent increases all around).
I am honestly surprised at how I did not see just how powerful Grasping Arrow is until now, it's honestly insane and really fun to optimize. But now, I think it has of a detriment than anything because now I can't look at the other shots the same. We're pretty much always gonna take Grasping Arrow as a first option and it will always be good, while the other options are either decent or not great. Again that probably isn't helped by having so few shot uses, but it's definitely one I'll be thinking of whenever I'm playing the Arcane Archer.
If at some point there's a revision, the shot uses scaling would certainly help, but I'd also like to see more shot options as well! We've got Chronurgy magic, Graviturgy magics, Dunamancy, heck I'd argue the Hemocraft from the Blood Hunter could have its own specialty shot (and it especially works since it's also based on Intelligence). The versatility in combat and non-combat situations will always make the Battle Master a go-to, and if the Arcane Archer had more versatility in combat I think comparisons would be harder to make; shots that can be triggered Hawkeye-style could be pretty fun, or ones that have utility uses like setting things aflame or freezing things.
I considered making it available not only to Bows, but also Crossbows and even guns, but now I think it's a bit unnecessary (gunslinger is right there, me, how did you forget that). I've seen homebrew that makes it a caster similar to Paladins and while I think it would be cool, it might be too much with what is already there and could easily overshadow the main draw of the class: do you want to be a really cool bowman that melds magic into your weaponry.
I've been enjoying your analysis' on tons of classes and subclasses as of late, making them stronger, and pointing out aspects that are overhyped or not talked about as much. I look forward to whatever you may tackle next! (Id' love to see you take a look at making the Storm Herald better/more flavorful)
I enjoy these videos, where you show off ways to optimize a subclass. Liked.
I like the concept of a Battle Smith with a 3 Lvl dip into arcane archer.
fey touched with hex and the steel defender and you turn into a cyber ranger. after you hit with grasping arrow you can order your defender (with a bonus action) to grab and shove the target.
I envision him/her as a Tortle who was damaged by an explosion and replaced parts of the body/shell with tinkered gimmicks and the the Defender is a spider-like creature, that is wrapped around the shell.
I would also pick the seeking arrow and combine that with branding smite to fight invisible enemies. I would talk to the DM first but assume, the seeking arrow always hits, so the branding smite can reveal the enemy.
What do you think ?
I don’t often remember to comment but thank you! Your videos are amazing!
Prestidigitation does give the Arcane Archer access to the Eldritch Adept feat, though, which can provide some very tangible benefits to practically any build. I mean, Devil's Sight is an option, and it's *really* powerful.
That's... an interesting interaction I hadn't thought of before. Now I'm thinking that things like Armor of Shadows, Fiendish Vigor, and Mask of Many Faces might be worth a feat for certain character concepts, especially on a Fighter.
Having Prestidigitation doesn't give you the "Spellcasting" feature or the "Pact Magic" feature though, so it doesn't meet the prerequisite.
Arcane Archer grants the fighter the ability to cast a cantrip, but it doesn't give the fighter the Spellcasting feature. For Eldritch Adept to be a feat the fighter is eligible for, they have to have spell slots of some sort, like an Eldrirch Knight.
@@dylandugan76 you're right, i was looking at Elemental Adept's requirements. That's my bad x(
Underrated spells/abilities are my favourite, great video!
Grasping Arrow is definitely under-valued. I was skeptical until an Arcane Archer joined one of my games and I actually read the effect. We admittedly didn't have many forced movement options (though the Bard occasionally tore it up with Dissonant Whispers) but even then it was an immensely valuable tool. In the action economy, effects that require a turn in order to ATTEMPT to shake an effect tend to be amazing.
Similarly, I think Wrathful Smite tends to be under-valued. I made a grappling-focused Paladin once that would fear a creature and then make sure it couldn't escape. It was at perma-disadvantage unless it ate its action to attempt a Wisdom CHECK (not a saving throw) to stop being scared. And if it managed, Wrathful Smite is only a 1st level slot. Obviously, unlike Wrathful, Grasping doesn't allow a saving throw at the start, but fear is a good debuff and if it sticks it sticks hard. Bonus points if you're Conquest, which I actually wasn't.
Footnote: Wrathful is also concentration, which Grasping is not. Not that I think the two should be compared straight across, because they're incredibly different. It's just that effects of this sort are VERY RARE and I think Wrathful should have more attention than it gets. Not all the attention in the world, mind, but more than it gets.
I have a first-time player running a straight AA in one of my campaigns. He went for bursting arrow first but he's very quickly discovered how much damage he gets from grasping (The character is level 5). On advice from another DM I gave him a quiver that recharges 1 arcane shot per day as a bonus action to help with the resource pinch. He's not only keeping up with the bard, wizard, and barbarian in the party, but the range on his longbow has been vital in several encounters, once yes even to near the 600 ft mark.
As a DM looking at grasping arrow what jumps out at me is the fact that allies can break the vines. Not the case in all combats, but if there's a single big monster I personally have them assisted by some smaller creatures also so it could take their action away instead of the biggest creature. And because their initiative could be interspersed at any point in the round then there's a good chance they might break the effect for the creature before it has to use it's action.
Don't get me wrong, it's still amazing and the above solution does require that the monster in question is assisted or has intelligent enough minions to help, but I can see obvious ways that the effects might be mitigated.
How good are these minions Athletics checks? This takes their action and swings economy toward the PCs even if they succeed, and when they fail, maybe multiple times, that’s Hypnotic Pattern levels of good with no Charm immunity potential
When monsters are using their actions to escape effects, rather than attacking, that's a win for the players.
If you decide as the DM to pad your encounters with monsters dedicated to this sort of thing, that's your choice as DM. No judgment here, for or against; but the players can't make decisions based upon, "Well, the DM might start padding encounters if I use good tactics."
@@FruitsCSamurai might not be great, then again might be better if it's a spellcaster. And for sure it's definitely still a win, but maybe not as big a win as it's being presented.
@@elementzero3379 not something I'd intentionally include to combat that feature, just seems like something that would naturally happen imo since having any creature work alone is a bad idea for encounter balance.
Hot take on seeking arrow: The DM can do whatever the player’s do in regards to NPC actions. This means that monsters/NPCs aren’t 100% stupid. They know what they, and their allies, can do. They know some level of strategy that typically works for them. If there is even one rogue in their group that the archer saw at one point that uses the move, shoot, hide, shoot, move, hide model for their turns…..the Arcane Archer can hit them with this with their first attack. They can then use sharpshooter to negate the cover dealing more damage, and if needed, they can action surge to take out the sneak.
One thing to note in favour of Piercing Arrow, is that it benefits more from weapon buffs than Bursting Arrow (though I will admit Bursting Arrow is still more consistent). Things like elemental weapon, flame arrows, the Fey Wanderer's Dreadful Strikes, the chromatic dragon feat, etc., will all apply to every creature affected by Piercing Arrow. Also you can shoot through walls, but that's going to be very niche (for example if you have the warlock wall-vision invocation, you could wall bang enemies).
I do tend to do more encounters per day as I only allow 1 long res a day. However sometimes its tough to make players continue along. In a dungeon, approaching an enemy stronghold, or having a time limit have worked well though. In all those there is heavy incentive to keep moving. I learned a lot when they went into some Dwarven mines that were overrun by goblins. They learned a lot too.
Party was used to the leomunds tiny hut being safe and so the goblin shamans had dispel magic. They got attacked close to 12 times on approach to and inside the mines. Most of these encounters they were very aware that many more goblins were between them and the throne room and they had to get creative to run and not be chased entirely. It was a great time all around.
So, what you're SAYING is, I should start with a Grasping Arrow, Action Surge to cast _Tasha's caustic brew_ (by feat or multiclass, doesn't matter too much), and laugh as they have to take two separate actions to end two separate instances of extra damage on them?
Bahaha that's evil
@@imhulki463 even better, I recently realized an 11th level artificer of any kind (with access to _find familiar_ ) can imbue a sling with _web_ and tie it to their familiar who uses it.
Meanwhile, you cast _Tasha's caustic brew,_ with higher level slots even, on enemies within the _web._
It's an action to break free of _web_ (which they could fail) and an action to get rid of the acid.
I'm playing an artificer right now, but I'm only 10th level. I'm really looking forward to level 11.
@@clarkside4493 BRUH
So the poisoner feat allows you to apply poisons to your weapon/ammunition as a bonus action, hey something else to do with your bonus action early, it also ignores resistance to poison when you deal damage (including grasping arrow) and the big one is when you hit with a poisoned weapon or ammo, now it states the poison remains for 1 minute or until you hit. Piercing arrow says that all the creatures in the line take damage is if they were hit by the arrow.
Now I assume that the poison would only affect the first creature in the line but if it allows you to hit all creatures in the line with poison that would be a wonderful feat for arcane archer and a damn good reason to pick up piercing arrow. The other thing with piercing arrow is Bursting arrow deals extra damage to creatures around you that isn't part of the attack, if a caster enchants your weapon and you use piercing arrow through 2-4 creatures, they also suffer whatever the enchantment to the weapon does as well, such as Casting Holy Weapon and then using Piercing Arrow.
I also wonder if this would be a solid 3 level multiclass option with a ranger or ranged rogue for the use of the shots.
Also, forced movement is a hugely underrated tactic and I'm surprised at how many players don't take more advantage of it. It's so underrated that 4E D&D literally rewrote most of its powers so that Murder Pinball wouldn't be as dominating. Graviturgists get to be a top-tier wizard just from their level 6 feature, turning spells like Eldritch Blast (if they can swing the stats), Magnify Gravity, Jim's Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, and even Magic Stone (with the help of Crusher) into easy 'you don't get to attack this round, you poor melee-dependent peasant'.
Come to think, you could probably do a whole video on the evil and hilarious things you can do with reliably access to Forced Movement. It's really hard to get, especially if we're talking about 10-foot forced movement -- where the real magic happens -- but it's oh-so-worth it. A Graviturgist and a Sorlock can keep entire enemy bruiser teams from taking a meaningful turn in T2, without even relying on stuff that requires saves.
I kinda wish Arcane Archer had another feature that scales of intelligence (maybe your arcane shot uses or a limited bonus to damage/attack roll equal to int). That way increasing your intelligence wouldn't feel like chore just to keep your shots effective.
this is what hurts me with AA too. I guess it's nice that AA doesn't need Int for, say, AC or something, but it still FEELS like you're losing out because of the MAD.
@@youtubeisawebsite7484 Say... an alternate AC of 10 + Dex + Int could be nice. At +2 int (an easy enough starting value) you've basically got free Studded Leather. Things just get better from there. Dumping Int would be no worse than status quo (you could still wear armor and function, unlike a Monk), but investing those many Fighter ASIs into stats rather than feats at a high level would eventually pay off.
I think you could take Fey Touched instead of Telekinetic feat and take Hex as first level spell, it would help to increase the dpr, gives a decent use of BA and impose a disadvantage in STR checks for Grasping Arrow, which could be helpful against high strenght monsters. Also, misty step is a good disengage option :)
Hex wisdom make your first shot shadow arrow giving your second shot advantage and psychic damage isn't resisted by most creatures
I love to take fey touched for my arcane archer. Gives you +1 int, misty step and you can take hex.
Enemy gets disadvantage for str checks, 1d6 extra damage and you have a use for your bonus action.
Multiclass with Chronurgy Wizard for intmod on initiative and you can force save/check rerolls.
Also you can use silvery barbs as a Wizard and later haste yourself.
I saw some suggestions somewhere to tune up arcane archer without giving them more shot uses. The suggestions were to let you concentrate for one minute on the Beguiling, Banishing, Enfeebling, and Shadow arrows. This gives some more value for your shots without giving you more uses, kinda like how warlock can make their pact slots more impactful by choosing good concentration options.
*And* to learn a 1st level wizard/druid spell corresponding to the magic school of each magic shot option you know, which you can cast each once for free per Long Rest. So at 3rd level if you choose Banishing Arrow and Bursting Arrow, you could choose to learn Absorb Elements (Abjuration) and Faerie Fire (Evocation).
This gives you the option to choose some damaging spells if you want, or go for more utility. And potentially gives you a reason to choose one of the weaker arcane shots because you might want to learn a certain 1st level spell, like choosing Beguiling Arrow because you want to learn Silvery Barbs.
Your videos are really great. I dismissed this class entirely when reading about it despite loving the idea of the class.
Subbed!
Homebrew additional; fix shots = proficiency bonus. Now it’s good. Also can allow crossbows/bolts not just short/long bow.
Thanks for the math break down. Love seeing this
Bloody hell, 5e really gimped the AA when compared to 3.5. Was one of my favorite builds back then.
Back in the day when this was a prestige class I would roll them as a wizard mostly. The result was a wizard that relied on arrows for saving spell slots, but when a spell was needed I had them ready. Plenty of utility and solid ranged attacks.
Some would argue it was a less powerful wizard or an underperforming archer, but I felt pretty capable compared to the other party members.
The biggest issue here it shows how the much reliance the Arcane Archer has on others for that forced movement. Drakewarden/ Beastmaster pets, Barbarians, telekinesis all help them but that means you give up a subclass that can stand more on it’s own and others may have to give up bonus actions and it that is the case then it works. Big ask. But I see that longbow really works for them. Thanks.
I don’t see how that is a big ask. There are so many features with forced movement that it is unlikely your party doesn’t have any, and they are more likely to use them if there is an extra 2d6 damage applied.
If you really don’t want to involve party members, bump up Wisdom and grab 3 levels of Swarmkeeper Ranger for an auto proc every turn plus everything else they get front loaded.
you can just multiclass into swarmkeeper after 5th or 6th lvl if you want to make the most of this feature. It'll come somewhat late but you'll do alright before that if you pick the right ASI and feats
Combining Grasping Arrow with Slasher feat would be pretty unexpected combination.
I think I'll make a homebrew redesign. Essentially you're playing a Wizard whose Proficiency align with Archery. You have spell slots but only for the sake of knowing and imbuing spells into your ammunition as well as limiting how many and what type of spells you can imbue. You may pull from the Wizard or Ranger spell list. Ammunition fired, regardless of hit or miss, have their spells exhausted and even if the munition may be reclaimed the spell is expended. The spell imbued within a munition can be upcasted if the spell allows. The Arcane Archer can learn spells outside of leveling if they spend x days studying an enchanted object's innate spell with x the level of the spell within the object regardless of rarity. Spells from your ammunition when triggered act as if being cast via a spell scroll with the archer the one casting the spell. All arrows imbued with a spell are Magical until expended.
Lv 3: Delayed Shot. You can choose for the spell to immediately active or to trigger as your reaction. If you do not trigger this spell before the start of your next round the spell within the arrow is expended without it's effect going off.
Lv 7: Empowered Shot. You can use a bonus action to expend a spell slot to empower a piece of munition to deal an extra xd6 with x being the level of Spell Slot used. This empowerment lasts 1 round and can be used any number of times.
Lv 15: Zone Control. Up to twice a day you are not required to hit your target with munitions for the spell to trigger. If any creature is within 30ft of the munition they become valid targets for the imbued spell.
Is it just me or creatures hit by Grasping Arrow can only take the slashing dmg once per turn? It is written "the first time on each turn it moves" ...
You're correct. Once per turn, potentially many times each round.
15:00 Arcane shots are magical effects it even lists which school it's from.
Unknowingly brought banishing arrow into a particular place where spells to get "out" of the dungeon such as teleportation, indeed to move to another plane would be redirected to a certain room. That was interesting and boosted it up a bit in power.
Couldn't you stack Grasping Arrow with the Poisoner feat to get even more mileage out of it? Poisoner allows you to ignore poison resistance. Since the poison you can make gives the target disadvantage on Ability saving throws (assuming they fail it, of course - it IS a Con ST), it would be less likely for them to remove the effect.
this is probably the best use i've seen to poisoner along with using it for green dragonborn
I think the feat is underpowered either way tbh, for more than a few reasons even, but it is an interesting combo that I could see being used if you can spend the 50 gold. At least it gives the feat something cool to be used with.
My first ever character was an Arcane Archer, I didn’t know much about the game though so I don’t know if it was good or bad. Nostalgia will always make me like it though. :)
Honestly love this subclass, my only grievance with it is the low amount of arcane shots use, much like the warlock feels to limiting, and that it doesn't work with crossbows of any kind feels very nit picky to me. Like if I had firearms an arcane Archer with guns sounds awesome.
I’m playing that right now in spell jammers
@@ericm3327 awesome how's it going on with that? Actually might be playing a arcane Archer, warlock multiclass myself. Once the dm gets a new place since this week his place burned down. World really wants me to be a forever dm.
I think you've underrated shadow arrow in a group with more ranged players. Just as grasping excels in a group with more forced movement, shadow is amazing in a ranged attack group. Yourself included. Shadow arrow is burst time, it's when you'd action surge and focus fire something down. It also excels against your ranged or spellcaster enemy. Let's not forget how many spells require sight to work, it doesn't merely impose disadvantage on spell attacks, it negates many spells entirely. For these reasons, I rate shadow arrow higher, 2nd to grasping, if a little bit group dependent. It is competing for 2nd place with banishing arrow imo.
I'd also emphasize telekinetic as a feat a bit more for this subclass, it fills out your turn, giving you a reliable bonus action, lets Force that movement each of your turns for grasping arrow damage, and as we're not taking crossbow expert, we're worried about things getting into mellee with us and imposing disadvantage on our ranged attacks. Telekinesis shove lets us push them off us first, before firing. All while being a half feat. Yes curved shot uses some bonus actions, coming online at 7, but that is late, and not always needed.
I think Grasping Arrow definitely has a lot of potential, but personally I think if you're trying to build around it, you really need to coordinate with party members to make sure they're actually going to be able to synergize with it. The game I'm currently in, for example, no one has forced movement abilities. Seems like just getting 2d6/round (or 0 if they're already next to their target) in this case wouldn't scale all that well. Late game I'd think monsters would be fine just tanking it over spending their actions.
Good reason to take Telekinetic then, or multiclass to Swarmkeeper ranger or maybe Dao patron warlock and take Repelling Blast and Grasp of Hadar to go with your Eldritch Blast, Hex and Spike Growth spells. But yeah, getting other party members to cooperate and coordinate is definitely a good idea.
Too bad crusher has only +1 to con or str because that and a single level dip in Dao Lock would net you a Hex per short rest for str check disadvantage, no save forced movement (so a free 2D6 from grasping shot on your turn), PB damage added once per attack from bottled respite. So with that and hex that is 4D6+3 extra damage. If you dip Dao at lvl 7.
Also what would stop you from pulling out a finesse weapon on turn and hitting with booming blade when you can't disengage. You can stow the weapon for free next turn to go back to ranged stuff. This would push them away (Dao crusher) and they would have to take booming damage to close the gap.
Beguiling arrow can actually be really good. The charm effect helps pull enemies of your Frontline.
If you can find the ability points, a warlock dip would be fantastic on this build. Hex gives disadvantage on an ability check. If you go Dao and take the crusher feat, you have guaranteed forced movement each turn. I’d estimate that this will give an extra 8d6+PB of damage for a one level dip, a bonus action, and a half feat.
Could you do a bard summoner. Cause if you can get the arcane archer working. I know you can make this playstyle work
All you have to do is become underage to summon a bard
I really enjoy your pun character names.
Always good videos. This is no different. Thanks.
Shaper shooter is great, but I would also heavily recommend posioner. As it allows you to apply 2d8 as a bonus action. Your posions ignore resistance and since the roll against posions is applied when they take damge from the arrow. Arrows that auto hit and deal dmg without a roll or half dmg gaureentee the posion procing.
It says it disaprears on hit, so depending how your gm reads it, you may be able to burst posion.
Plus the stronger posions you can get
I thought about this too, but the poison damage (for the poison created with the feat) isn’t dealt unless they fail a dc14 con save, which is pretty low. Becomes a lot better if stronger poison acquisition is a thing in your game though.
Similar idea though is the Gift of the Chromatic Dragon feat from Fitzbans. Bonus action gives you 1 minute of 1d4 elemental or poison dmg to all of weapons damage rolls once per long rest [in addition to a reaction for resistance to an instance of a element/poison, w/ uses = to prof]
Pierceing arrow would appear to allow you to shoot through walls and doors. There is jo requirment to see thr target and it passes through all objects. It's a niche use but could be effective in certain situations.
Like many people commented here- multiclassing is pretty good with this.
I think a Level 3 Fighter arcane archer with the rest of the levels in Battle Smith Artificer could be really powerful.
With the ammunition property of the bow that allows you to make a melee Attack(improvised),
Could you wrathful smite with that attack as one of your attacks, then grasping arrow with the other?
Also what are the limitations of that melee attack?
Or other applications of that part of the ammunition property?
Any augmentation on that attack would be useful if surrounded with only a bow, or out of arrows.
Booming blade maybe?