I still use variant human for most of my builds. The 16 to main stat and 16 constitution is really hard for me to give up, even if I know custom lineage would be better damage.
finally my type of build! striker! action surge! multiattacking! great action economy! forced movement! burst! multiclassing! gloomstalker! more of these please. these are all the concepts i subscribe to and play with. It's really nice to see you step outside your comfort zone. kudos really. this is one of your best vids in a long while imo. great bless explaination. video length is not too long. excellent reasoning on party composition. overall just a fantastic vid chris!
Absolutely agree with the Caster-Martial argument, spells like bless, hold person, haste, blessed weapon, hold monster and many others deal WAY more damage than any spell at similar levels if you have a good martial to cast them on, and no casters on their own or martials on their own could ever achieve similar levels of damage, very simbiotic relationship
@@applecrow8 Bane may not work every time, but it reduces saving throws. The way I see it, Bless is a spell for boosting damage, while Bane is a spell for improving control. The issue with Bane is that initial saving throw can throw a wrench in your plans, but reducing a d4 from saving throws is amazing for pretty much everything except for straight damage.
The favored foe/rage concentration thing is yet more proof of how unhelpful 5e's "natural language" thing is. By your reading, and by most folks normal reading of the rules involved, it could have worked. RAI basically involves treating your concentration as a universal slot that only one thing can occupy and rage disallows use of, but it's never written that way. I like 5e a lot, but that doesn't mean it isn't hella frustrating at times. Too often the rules would have benefitted from even a small glossary defining some explicit game terms. "As if concentrating on a spell" is bullshit.
It's a good thing Wizards gave a statement saying that Jeremy Crawford's tweets are NOT official rulings and don't have to be followed. His initials may be JC but he's certainly not the Jesus of D&D.
If anything, I blame them for changing Favored Foe to use concentration. It was fine the way it was, but the community got so up in arms that it got nerfed into the dirt. And even the idea that you could stack it and HM didn't make sense as we've seen marking abilities not work that way even before we got here. But basically I'm just an old man yelling at a cloud. XD
Weird, from the way the rules are currently written I inferred that a creature can only concentrate on one thing at a time, regardless of what that thing is, and that rage makes you unable to concentrate on anything. Personally I find it incomprehensible that people would read it any other way just because "technically" rage just specifies spells - ignoring the fact that when it was written the only thing characters had to concentrate on were spells.
@@LupineShadowOmega The UA favored foe made it essentially a requirement for every monk to MC into Ranger. That extra 1d4 on 4 attacks no concentration, no BA, was just too perfect a fit. That said, I think they went a little too far the other way. It should either require concentration (thus not stack with Hunter's Mark) OR be extra damage only 1/turn.
@@richardwhaler8717 "If you are able to cast spells, you cannot cast them or concentrate on them while raging" taken literally means exactly what it says. Nothing more. I know what the rules and the intent are, but I still think my argument is obvious that the game could have used a bit more accuracy and precision in its rules.
Don't forget that GWM also lets you take a bonus action attack when you get a crit or killing blow. If you're attacking as much as 4 times in a round at level 3, the chances are you'll probably get a killing blow on something in that level range, and be able to make a bonus action attack on top of everything else.
For the last two levels, why not take another level or ranger and another level of fighter? Then we can get *two* additional ASIs that can be spent on feats, like the lucky feat which can help us turn some misses into hits and will even help our defense, or increase our constitution in order to make more attacks via our unleash incarnation feature *and* increase our defense at the same time, or even both!
@@JoeHero40k armorer artificer uses lightning launcher, tempest cleric allows you to channel divinity to max damage, rogue allows for sneak attack. My two favorite for this would be soul knife for concentration free invisibility to get into combat hopefully with surprise or at the very least have advantage on your first attack. Though with sharpshooter feat and 300 ft range on lightning launcher you’d probably be able to get surprise simply due to them not even being aware of you. Phantom allows you to pass through objects. So you’d be able to go underground or stay in a wall and ambush whomever you’re trying kill. It’s a first round of combat burst/nova damage build that basically you get 60 damage guaranteed flat if you hit, but 120 if you crit. It’s not crazy damage, but it’s fun. I prefer the new dragon monk mixed with tempest cleric for lightning kicks and thunderbolt strike. So you’re kicking people around and moving them as much as you like. Concentrate on spirit shroud so that you’re doing decent damage and now the dragon monk isn’t so bad.
26:59 "This way we can cause a big boom of thunder before we come in and kick everyone's ass." Scribbles note to self - Have Bobby Roode's intro qued up *GLORIOUS!!!*
No character exists in a vacuum. Team work makes the dream work. I love playing support characters and just letting friends wail on enemies. Cleric of peace is tailor made for the enabler and I've had a lot of fun playing a cowardly goblin cleric of peace who cozies up to the biggest, toughest, adventurer he can find and becomes his best friend.
For some perspective on the amount of damage you deal with this character at high level, here are some creatures that you could feasibly Kill outright on your first turn in combat: Purple Worm, Adult Dragon (any flavor), Iron Golem, Solar, Roc, Storm Giant.
1) I feel like not naming her Whoop Lass is a missed opportunity. 2) You're only 7 classes short from an Abserd build. Now I kind of want to see your take on that.
I'd like to see an attempt to "Optimize" Abserd. Especially since the Artificer class has came around since. At the very least, they'll have a monstrous list of Level 1 spells at their disposal.
Worth noting if you are focusing purely on damage, Battlemaster with precision attack, and maybe some of the reaction attack maneuvers like riposte, will deal more damage over a course of a day. One precision attack is going to bring about as much damage as one unleash incarnation, and with a single short rest you'll get 10 of them in a day (instead of 2 per day). Slightly less single round burst, I suppose? (Of course, you would miss out on a lot of busted Echo Knight utility, so Echo Knight probably makes a better character). I will say that I'm not enthusiastic about the spore druid pick, though, cause if you lose the temp HP (and we're talking 8 temp HP), the ability ends and you lose the d6 necrotic damage. Maybe that's no different than losing concentration on something like hunter's mark, but if it makes your AC worse, I'm underwhelmed. I would just take Barb to level 3 and grab Zealot. Little bit of extra damage every time you rage, and one more rage per long rest.
Could maybe use the fighter combat style for Superior Technique for riposte (could great weapon at the start and swap it later to take great weapon fighting as the ranger one.... blindsense can probably be dealt with with magic items). That last ASI could give Martial Adept for 2 ripostes per short rest. And some other maneuvers that won't get used because riposte is more helpful... maybe just social or utility ones....
The busted Echo knight utility does out weigh the battlemaster maneuvers. Having the ability to be so mobile and effectively be in two places at once is just too strong. Its so strong that every martial class should dip 3 levels for echo knight. The battlemaster is my favorite fighter class. Echo knight reeks of Cheese.
@@sharkforce8147 An echo knight can use that same feat slot to boost damage when the Battlemaster is using it to catch up on utility and mobility (finding phantom steed isn't a given either), so a BM is only better at damage if it gives up on mobility. The Echo is easily one of the most powerful abilities in the game and better enables a melee build than anything the BM has. Mobility is king.
This was fun! I really enjoyed it! I always love your builds. The other day I was reading through one of your threads on an old Pathfinder forum where you were defending optimization. You said that, not only is optimization compatible with role-playing, But sometimes it's necessary in order to play a particular character concept without becoming ineffective. Of course you said the same thing on this channel too, but it was different to read you responding directly to people who disagree. In my experience, this is not how most of us create characters, though I wish it was. Usually I will find a cool ability, feat, or combination and then work from there. I end up "discovering" my character through the process. I have played some really fun characters that way. But I like yours way better. I have a suggestion. I would love to see you explore that method more. You could take a particular concept and then show a couple of builds for it. You could maybe include a "you might be tempted to build it this way but here's why you shouldn't" example. This is kind of what you already did with your Mage Hunter videos. How would you feel about more of that type of analysis?
I always think these kind of characters even less extreme ones are undervalued by many. I get control feels more clever and can be more fun for people heck even me as I generally play mages. But stacking bodies is the ultimate control.
Martials are fantastic in a group if you have the really strong (sub-)classes - Echo Knight is great, as is most Rangers and Paladins. (Barbarians and Rogues require some effort to make them work, and of course there is also monks). A Hexblade or any Charisma build that dips into it for Eldritch Blast based builds could be considered a martial role as well. The gap mostly forms in 5e because a lot of players shy away from feats and multiclasses, as casters get the majority of their good stuff just passively by leveling up. Furthermore, there's the misconception on that martials are generally easier to play - many baseline, straight martials have significant shortcomings that lead to excessive burning of spell slots at best or standing around useless at worst if you don't work out your build to mitigate them. I will however say that noncombat challenges overall are massively pared down compared to 3.5 due to the overall unreliable value of most skills and adventure design moving away from tough to navigate environments. Finally, the main part where casters truly obsolete martials is stuff like the extremely stacked Tasha Clerics, Bag of Holding bombs, broken Chronurgy interactions and lastly the 9th level spells like Wish and True Polymorph. I'm not endorsing it for play but you won't see this level of broken on a martial.
Totally agree, there are some gamebreaking options in the game. Generally as a DM you basically have to encourage players not to break your game when those options come up.
For a 1-level dip to add some extra attack beef (although it does also cost you an extra feat), I like to weild a piercing or slashing weapon, take Genie Warlock, pick Dao, and take both Crusher AND whichever of Piercer/Slasher applies. It's not improving every attack, but it is potentially significant to have both feats trigger on at least one of them per turn. As well, it gives me this lovely flavour idea where you made your weapon out of unusually heavy material and that's why it crushes as well as doing whatever else it does.
Ive got an interesting character who went Echoknight 18 and Barbarian 2. He uses feats for a majority of his ASIs to have two fighting styles Archery, Thrown Weapon Fighter. He also took Slasher, Sharpshooter and Thrown Arms Master (from Crit Role) and I was allowed to take the UA feat Fell Handed because he fights with hand axes. In addition to this he had an artificer enchant his hand axes to make them Returning Weapons (and give em a +1 as well, gotta have magic weapons of course) while his eventual damage output does not equal yours I think I’ve come up with something a bit unique. I have a barbarian who can kite. He reckless attacks through his echos,can attack at range and yet still be the agro draw with his echo, has incredible mobility because of echos and when he does take a hit can soak the most common forms of damage and deals some pretty darn good damage without putting himself in melee range to do it. It been damned fun to play especially when he hit level 20 and got his second echo.
Starting once the Gloomstalker levels are finished up, if this character is in the dark and gets suprise, I think this character could potentially whipe out an entire party of PC's of similar level...
Even though it makes no strategic sense, I can TOTALLY see a Cleric casting a 9th level Spirit Guardians just to flex when he has more disdain than respect for a particular recurring villain.
I actually came across a case a while ago where 9th level spirit guardians did make sense. It was a game where they took it to level 20, and then had a one-shot "level 30" epilogue with 10 multiclass levels. Paladin 20 Bard 10 ended up with 9th level spells, but at most 5th level spell slots, and up-casted 9th level Spirit Guardians was the best use we could find for the 9th level slot.
@@TreantmonksTemple I agree. I think its sad that spirit guardians is probably the best use for a lot of the higher level cleric slots. Most high level spells are super situational and clerics I think get hit harder than most.
@@cp1cupcake hey just cause their best offensive spell is lvl 3 isn't bad. That means they don't have to worry about offensive concentration spells as they level and they can pick up more diverse spells.
Personally, I disagree with the druid here, the ability gives temp hp equal to 4 per druid level so 8 and if you lose em if the ability turns off, taking 8 damage at lvl 20 is going to happen always and very easily, and it takes a full action to set up wich you can't do on first round cuz you'd lose out on gloomstalker damage. Personally, even tough this is a damage build I'd take barbarian to 3 and take bear totem totem as to not explode at higher levels, remember if you go down you ain't dealing damage. The last level could just be in barb for more hp a feat or improvement, or hex blade for hex blade curse, if you can set it up that's 6 more damage per attack and that's insane
I concur. Hitting Fey Wanderer 3 would add a d4 per round per target of psychic damage without touching action economy, Zealot 3 would give +1d6+1 per turn for two minutes a day, plus they give a sliver more health.
I was thinking the exact same for the Spores temp hp. Going further in barbarian seems to make sense... an extra rage and an extra ASI for more Con so more Echo Knight Attacks seems more valuable than Symbiotic Entity unless you can guarantee that you will get to attack before you get hit AND that you have time to pre use Symbiotic Entity before the fight. If you wanted more damage regardless of defensive ability you could go for Zealot over Bear Totem though... though Ancestors wouldn't be terrible either. Alternatively you could up your ranger and fighter levels and have 2 ASI's if that's worth it to you....
Agree that the druid ability is not likely to carry over into round two. Bear totem plus tough feat would definitely make Whoopi harder to put down after then jump you for 11 attacks. That or Zealot to let your party revive you for free after you go down haha. Hexblade Warlock is not viable with this build due to CHA requirement.
@@Spectrulus Three minutes per day.... you'd have a third rage at level 3. Fey Wanderer is out because it's already a Gloom Stalker for the extra attacks and if nova damage is being looked at over steady damage then it would lose out.
Aren't Jeremy Crawford's twitter responses essentially just, how he would rule it at his table? The rage plus non-spell concentration is not the worst call I've seen from him, but it's definitely in the "not supported by the printed text" category (and not alone there, either!)
you're right that what Jeremy Crawford says on twitter shouldn't be rule of law. that being said I think he's right here and I would rule the same way. in the text for favoured foe it says "as if you were concentrating on a spell" being in a rage means you can't cast spells and can't concentrate on them. concentrating on favoured foe is the same as if it were a spell. it was written that way so it wouldn't cost spell slots to use, and that people wouldn't have to pick hunters mark every time look at it from a flavour standpoint. if you're a raging barbarian you aren't concentrating on fighting a favoured foe. you're red in the eyes and hitting anything that moves. you don't have time for anything that even resembles a spell
I generally consider his tweets the intention of the rule, which generally speaking I try to follow. In this case, honestly it's pretty small stakes, FF isn't adding much, but it was a pain to have to go back and edit all the damage calculations!
@@jackbuggeln4870 From a flavor standpoint, wouldn't being in a rage synergize well with a favored enemy? Wouldn't it even be appropriate to consider a favored enemy the _cause_ and focus of going into a rage? Look at how often a "blind rage" is portrayed as a single-minded focus on a target in media rather than lashing out at anything within arms reach. D&D certainly doesn't enforce the latter instance by making the barbarian roll a d100 to determine a target for each round.
@@TreantmonksTemple So would you require a 25gp consumed component for casting Protection from Evil and Good? He said both ways within ~15 minutes of each other. Or do you flip a coin to decide?
And now imagine that cleric is a peace cleric that manages to get their emboldening bond going before they cast bless….or your eloquence bard dishes out unfailing an infectious inspiration for an extra d12 to hit. Or both.
Perhaps I missed it, but did you change out of your heavy armor? Chain mail and rage don't mix as you cannot rage in heavy armor. By level 6 when you start multiclassing into barbarian, you probably have enough gold for half plate but with spells, it seems like the raging is not your primary method of dealing damage - especially if you are going to multiclass into druid later.
@@jrgenchristensen7240 Correct. You CAN rage in Heavy Armor you just don't gain the benefit of the 3 effects provided by rage, namely advantage/damage/resistance. However if you are a totem barbarian you can still gain the benefits of any totem that does not specifically state that you cannot.
At lvl 4 on this build when you pick up GWM the target ac for when to use it is 16 without and 17 with advantage. Lvl 5 it goes up to 17 without advantage and 18 with advantage because of the proficiency increase.
You said near the 24 minutes mark that the first turn bonus action is taken by raging. But to be able to nova like you show in the video and use unleash incarnation, you need to have an eccho out. That means the first turn of combat, you need to use your bonus action to manifest your eccho. The video is great as always, I'm just nitpicking. Nice to see war cleric find a spot in a build even if it's only 2 levels at the end.
@@joseluizps95 exactly. As you should already have the echo active, you don’t need to use a BA to manifest it. Granted, sometimes you won’t already have it out so you then will have to spend a turn manifesting, but since there’s no time limit on echos you should have them up all the time anyway. It’d be like a warlock walking around without their pact weapons or familiars ready, it just doesn’t make sense except from the rare situation of trying to be incognito and sneaking somewhere.
@@joseluizps95 100% right. It's weird to summon and/or move the eccho all the time outside of combat (it must be taxing for the character), but it's possible to always have it by your side. I stand corrected :)
This build is almost exactly the same as a character I am playing. In my case I went Ftr(EK)5 / Barb(AG)4 / Ftr+1 / Rgr(GS)4 / Ftr^. In that sequence, you can start with WIS 10 and then take Resilient(WIS) at 9th Level and ASI(+2 WIS) at 10th, which means you have the prerequisite for Ranger at 11. Admittedly, I wasn’t maximizing damage over every other consideration. As a tank I think you really need to get your WIS save covered at levels where fear, charms, and dominating effects are simply expected. You can re-skin the backgrounds of Echo Knight Fighter, Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, and Gloom Stalker Ranger into a mysterious spirit warrior. Start with Japanese Lamellar armor (scale), wielding a Tetsubo (maul) and using a disguise kit to apply Kumadori…you are dedicated to the forest Kami aspiring to join the ranks of Mujina, Faceless Ghost Killers. When you finally get disguise self…what do you use it for? I’m Slender Man.
Cool build-thanks for showing what is possible. Would prob grab war cleric at 1st for wis saves and more power in early game. Appreciate your vids, Chris
If I recall correctly, JC discussed GWF(class ability) and a lot of his thinking was (appropriately) based on “we don’t want tons of rerolling”. Consistent with that idea, I house ruled GWF as follows. For every damage die rolled on a GWF-attack, there is a minimum damage as follows: d4 = min 2; d6 = min 3; d8 = min 4; d10 = min 4; d12 = min 5 If the player chooses to use GWF on a legitimate hit/target: Every die, regardless of source counts. Neither the player nor any allies can use any other ability to affect the damage rolls. No rerolling. Technically, this is a slight disadvantage in terms of “average damage” BUT it is a significant benefit in that it ensures a “big hit” doesn’t just happen to roll awful damage. If a melee combatant crits with a flaming greatsword and tosses in a couple more dice from some ability…they might be rolling 12d6 and still get…well, 12 would be pretty rare, obviously…but 20-25? It happens, and it just isn’t fun. What you really want, as a fighter choosing GWF, is some control and consistent damage. You’re forgoing a shield, you’re likely crit-fishing to some extent. Using a “minimum per die” rule eliminates re-rolling and gives the player a “safety net” of minimum 36 damage on a 12d6 “big hit”. If you look at the probability, it is possible to crit-fish a point or two of damage over the rules-as-written. But, in my experience that ends up being 30 vs 32. Getting a straight crit with any weapon and it is either the same or slightly disadvantageous. But, if you play it out…it works great. There are no re-rolls. The melee combatant that is really investing in “big hit” nova smack downs can still potentially role straight max damage, and is assured of getting a damage minimum better than a combatant-dabble. But, on average, they don’t do more damage round-to-round. I’ve been asked about allowing it for other weapons-groups…but, I think GWF exists (and analogous fighting styles with other weapons don’t) specifically to give Conan-style fighters something extra. A finesse-weapon fighter is probably more mobile and maybe higher AC. An archer isn’t in the front rank and taking damage. The tank/beatdown is the character that exposes themselves to the most immediate and punishing consequences in any combat…and in 3 rounds (considering target AC) they usually connect with 2-6 hits. If those dice don’t roll well, that enemy isn’t reduced to 0 hp and will usually respond by attacking the obvious threat…which is the tank. I told them that the point of the GWF fighting style was to provide control and consistent outcomes to a fighter that was inherently constrained in choices regarding mobility and tactical placement. If you’re willing to lumber forward into immediate melee contact and, in general, stay there…then you have a few moments to make sure, if you do connect, you get a decent blow. A GWF isn’t usually running away, so they can focus a bit more on follow-through. The point is, the players of the combatant characters preferred “dice minimum” to “re-roll” *knowing that it was usually slightly disadvantageous* especially in early levels when there are less smite abilities and other damage riders. It was much easier to roll a handful of dice without saying “sword, flame-blade, smite, hex” and constantly worrying about which dice were legal to reroll. It’s fast and simple. This was so much the case that, of course, everyone was asking for a version that complemented a different build; rogues, archers, spell-snipers, etc.
So, I completely remove the concentration requirement on favored foe, and I give them another 2nd level ability which is effectively a ranged version of divine smite which does the weapons damage type. The ability is called natures wrath, and what it does is when you hit an opponent with a melee or ranged weapon attack you can spend a spell slot to deal an additional 2d6 damage of the weapons damage type increasing by 1d6 per level maxing out at 5d6 damage. This gives the ranger the boost it desires to be competitive in terms of damage, and the lower damage dice along with the lack of magical damage balances out its ability to be used at range. Additionally, this means the ranger has a much higher burst damage when compared to its original damage output which was more reliant on consistent damage being completely outdone by the fighter.
There is something I don’t understand … how can this build use the “Symbiotic Entity” feature during the 1st turn and pair it with Gloom Staker’s “Dread Ambusher” if it requires you to spend an action to give up wildshape to activate spores? I think I’m missing something. Can someone explain this please?
Chris, one big issue I see with taking Spores Druid is that as soon as you lose the 8 Temp HP you lose the extra damage and it requires an action to do. This means you will not have it up in many or even several combats a day.
Super late, but another point in favor of Hunter's Mark is that later on you're upcasting with higher spell slots. If you hit 3rd level slots, you can concentrate for 8 hours allowing you to cast it earlier in the day and still be able to use another Bonus Action ability like the GWM ability or a spell like Healing Word, Sanctuary, or if you keep going Cleric levels at the end - Spiritual Weapon. Now you've got 1d6 on every weapon attack and 1d8 + 2 on the Bonus attack (if you don't crit). I think Circle of Spores is a good idea still if you're able to get it ahead of time, though all the spellcasting late game seems to make the Barbarian levels useless.
If you rage on round one, doesn't that invalidate hunters mark and zephyr for the rest of the fight? Or is this to supplement multiple combats with only two rages?
On the first round of combat don't you have to use your bonus action to create your Echo so that you can use Unleash Incarnation? I don't think you can Rage on the first round
Just a couple thoughts: using a quarterstaff one handed and with the polearm master feat would work well with this build, and crusher feat, and would allow the use of a shield. With sentinel, it would reduce the creature's speed to zero and allow the 5' push when it came into range. Also, i feel 1 level of peace cleric for emboldening bond, plus the bless spell provides 2d4 for all those attacks would be worth a 1 level dip.
So, im going through a very similar build, but i have found the list of magical mauls from WotC, and most places i play is sorely lacking. As such, i went with greatsword and slasher instead of maul and crusher. Tons of cool magic swords. Not many mauls.
I'd be really interested to know how you would build a full leveled Echo Knight. Multiclassing is cool and all, but I'm always curious to know how the class compares by itself.
OBJECTION! Unleash Incarnation specifies that the additional attacks are made "from the echo's position". This requires an echo and summoning one requires a bonus action. You can either unleash incarnation OR rage on turn one, not both.
@@valentinrafael9201 Yes it does. In order to use Unleash Incarnation you need to have an Echo present. That means you have to use Manifest Echo, and Manifest Echo *does* require your Bonus Action.
I have a Kobold Bladesinger X/Echo 3 that I wonder how it stacks up vs this higher levels. First few levels I had to play as a caster b/c damage was basically below baseline, then the middle levels were above your baseline but not amazing, but at 6/3 the nova is 2x attacks + 2x GFB + 2x invoke echo attacks all with advantage. And then if you run into 10 mooks and want to go all out you can do like 150 - 200 with a fireball on the occasion because you're still a pretty full spell caster. And it would be even crazier if I got Illusionist's Bracers.
Amazing build, change the race to the new Bugbear from MotM and you're first round is crazy! To ensure you go first I might switch out Great Weapon Fighting with Superior Technique and take Ambush, just to add a 1d6 to each Initiative roll.
11:46 I might have put in a quick aside on a Primal Path you could chose if you wanted to trade damage for something else, like Ancestral Guardian, a build you did, is phenomenal at L8 here for protecting the team, and link to that video. (For a L8 one shot, 5AG 3Echo is better). Or the self-centered route, Bear Totem Or Beast for more survivability.
I wouldn't want to be pulling aggro with this build due to the lack of defense built in, also with reckless attack and medium armour at best with rage the beast won't do a great job turning hits into misses. I would say Totem barb with bear totem would give the most bang for buck.
@@staxus 1. Do you know what the echo can do with ancestral guardian + echo? you can draw agro while being protected by your whole party and echo being able to get AoO. 2. At least for the first few attacks, you shouldn't be "drawing" aggro unless the DM is metagaming you, and even then I don't know how much a creature can tell what's going on. That's true, boy this character is a squishy martial. Bear is probably better for most campaigns. Checking the math: If you have 16 AC and creatures have +6 to hit, they hit you 55% of the time without advantage and 79.75% with, very squishy. With tail it's only 32.5% and 54.3%, 41% and 32% damage reductions. It's more nuanced because it's only once per round, but you get to choose what attack and after the roll. But likely you'll have about +2 to AC from either using a shield, shield of faith, ceremony, or magic items (a party priority would be to boost your AC, should probably get a defense fighting style realistically) This changes the math to 45/69.75% to hit and 22.5/40% with tail for 50/43% reductions.
Toss in the Paladin throwing up Crusader's Mantle and somebody else can Animate Objects for fun. 🤣 Bonus points for ten silver pieces so they're silvered and magical, averaging 90 additional damage per round with this combo, split up to 10 ways. Side note, not sure why Favored Foe is so strongly suggested if you're not taking 6+ Ranger levels (where the die scales), and just need burst. It's 1-2 d4s per turn, since you only get the damage once per turn - it definitely doesn't stack with Extra Attack.
i don’t understand how Zephyr Strike works for this build, the extra movement/OA dodge is mostly negated by Echo Knight’s teleports and advantage has been taken care of by Barbarian levels. So you’re left with the occasional 1d8 damage at the cost of a bonus action on a build that is pretty bonus action-heavy. What am i missing here?
Hey Chris. I’m kinda of a newbie so sorry if I missed something important. At higher levels, are we still using rage? If so, does that negate every concentration spell including the ranger and cleric spells? Once we rage we’re committing to no magic, right?
Hi, @ 22:44 you mentione that you would have 3 normal attacks plus with action search you would have 6. I think that is incorrect. Action serge gives one action, so you could use that to attack bringing your total to 4. Could be wrong.
Can a full spell caster (with 9th level spell slots) get more burst dpr than this character in any way, in particular single target dpr? What about daily dpr?
Could you go into more detail into how you calculated Divine Strike into your Burst Damage? I couldn't find much info online, and I'm working on a build that uses a similar ability.
Divine Favor should ~2.169 per attack; best is probably to favored foe a number of times, particularly if you crit or think it will add enough to kill, and then also bonus action attack attack. But if you think combat will go on at least 3 rounds, and not worried about losing your concentration, divine favor is probably better.
Did anyone else catch how many echo attacks this build gets in the end?… constitution would have to be max to get full use of that and I’m not sure he got much into con.
I'm honestly surprised you skipped Assassin Rogue. If you can manage a surprise round, which is honestly fairly possible at this high level, you turn all 10 of those attacks into guaranteed crits.
Rather than the last minute Druid dip. I think I would take another level in Fighter and Ranger to bump Con to 18. 40 more HP and one more full Nova per LR.
I really like it, on a campaign I think it would be better a third lvl in Barbarian getting Path of the Totem Warrior Bear for the resistances instead of the druid levels. However I understand the extra spellcasting levels are also useful for upscaling spells.
Some of the BM maneouvres work really well with the archery fighting style, i'd probably go with that subclass over echo knight since the unleash incarnation ability doesn't work at range
@@TreantmonksTemple I like the 5 gloomstalker, 3 assassin, 3 battlemaster build for a ranged damage dealer. Assassin gets trashed a lot but in this niche build its mainly there to add advantage on round 1 which is likely due to Dex + wis to initiative. I take gloomstalker 5 rather than fighter for pass without trace in a campain but for a lvl 20 1 shot i would likely swap that to 11 battlemaster 3 gloom, rest assassin.
My personal fav all damage build has been Fighter Paladin and Barbarian multiclass. Champion Zealot and Vengeance all to make a lovely crit fish smiter who doesnt mind making the cleric go take care of someone else. Just bring me back to life is my motto
do you actually need barbarian to get advantage ? Gloomstamler your considered invisible while in darkness, meaning you have advantage. And that way you can concentrate on favored foe
Treant - A number of people have commented that you are allowing to many uses of Unleash in the first round. Only one per Attack Action. Not per attack. So, 1 vs 2. Also, some have argued that Action Surge does or doesn't double the number of Unleashes that can be used.
It's one per attack action, not one per attack, but if you take 2 attack actions, then you can use it once for each of those actions, or at least that's how I read it.
Now a big question is if you should have a rogue or two to spam Voice of Authority reaction sneak attacks on with your order cleric 1 / clockwork soul X, or if you're still just better off casting bless on Whoopy Yass
With your Monk ranking coming up, I think you should revisit the Ranged Kensei. I think Focused Aim, Ki Empowered Strike, and the ability to pick up the Archery Fighting style via a feat have really made it viable. While you cap at 3 attacks per turn, the accuracy you can achieve before even getting advantage is insane. In my calculations it kept up with Ranged Fighters, except maybe levels 1-3, exactly level 11, and exactly 20. It really picks up once you hit level 6 and get deft strike and it's decent at conserving Ki (spending 1-2 per round). And you can kind of dump wisdom with this build, though you might want enough to be able to maybe multiclass War Cleric or Fighter or Gloom Stalker.
One thing I see with Kensei ranged damage calculations, especially comparing to other ranged builds, is sharpen the blade is used with the assumption of no magic weapons, and I don't think that's going to give accurate information since at 11th level I think it's pretty likely you're rocking a decent magic weapon by that point.
@@TreantmonksTemple Yeah. In my experience a lot of times bow users get Bracers of Archery and Magic Quivers or magic ammo over +1/2/3 longbows but… it’s an unknown. Best to ignore it. Like it’s a cool thing if you have a secondary weapon (e.g., melee weapon) or find a bow with a great magic property but no bonus. The latter happened to me, and it was almost broken because the bow wasn’t balanced around ever getting +1/2/3 bonus… but for comparisons I’d ignore the feature, because once you have a +2 bow it’s not really worth the bonus action and ki. Calculating focused aim damage was rough though. I actually had to do a ton of math on the optimal way to spend ki to maximize damage and ki empowered strikes while sustaining over 8-12 rounds. I can dig up my spreadsheets and let you know what I found. It was surprisingly good. Not A-tier or B-tier by your standards but I think it could cut C-tier. Great damage, eventually great saves, and a few good monk tricks for a tight jam. But it lacked the spells of a Ranger or the burst damage of a Battlemaster archer.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
"Generic Race became the strongest race."
Variant Human: "First time?"
I honestly like regular human for some mad builds
@@arrowodd7695 It's crazy good at it.
I still use variant human for most of my builds. The 16 to main stat and 16 constitution is really hard for me to give up, even if I know custom lineage would be better damage.
@@imjustwolf 14 CON is fine for most builds
Vhuman paladins are still better though, since 16 in both CHA and STR is basically needed.
@@dudor5126 14 CON is fine. I just like really tanky builds so the higher HP is nice to me.
Thaumaturgy for the pre-ass-kicking thunder is the most important part of the build
You need the Ka-boom.
I’m picturing an old school wrestling theme song playing as it happens.
Cause stone cold said so.
@@binolombardi Didn't Triple H theme song start with a thunder?
@@TreantmonksTemple you do need heavenly trumpets to play the "AND HIS NAME IS JOHN CENA!" melody before you melt faces.
If I was a cleric with 3 of these characters in my party, I’d be reflecting on my life choices.
Indeed you should rethink your life choice, peace would have been a much better choice in this situation than life ;)
Cleric, "OK, let's coordinate...." Rest of the Party "RAAARH RAGE! ME HIT THINGS!" Cleric, "Lord, why do you keep testing me?"
@@TreantmonksTemple Whoopi strikes me as the type who does sociopathic laughter while raging.
@@TreantmonksTemple 😂😂😂
@@fadeleaf845 this is assuming you do the wuss defense version ree lmao
finally my type of build! striker! action surge! multiattacking! great action economy! forced movement! burst! multiclassing! gloomstalker! more of these please. these are all the concepts i subscribe to and play with. It's really nice to see you step outside your comfort zone.
kudos really. this is one of your best vids in a long while imo. great bless explaination. video length is not too long. excellent reasoning on party composition. overall just a fantastic vid chris!
Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
The video length is a great boon.
Long videos = more goodness. Content like treantmonks', Colby's, and the dungeon dudes' is just right up my alley.
very good point about mixed partys in the end
Absolutely agree with the Caster-Martial argument, spells like bless, hold person, haste, blessed weapon, hold monster and many others deal WAY more damage than any spell at similar levels if you have a good martial to cast them on, and no casters on their own or martials on their own could ever achieve similar levels of damage, very simbiotic relationship
Druid deals more damage than all of these
@@wayward41 Wait what? Other than moon druid at low levels druid aren't good damage dealers
I'm fascinated at how often people choose Bane over Bless. Bless is guaranteed to work every time.
I've always said the Fighter is the premier magic weapons user, it's also a great target for these damage/accuracy buffing spells.
@@applecrow8 Bane may not work every time, but it reduces saving throws. The way I see it, Bless is a spell for boosting damage, while Bane is a spell for improving control. The issue with Bane is that initial saving throw can throw a wrench in your plans, but reducing a d4 from saving throws is amazing for pretty much everything except for straight damage.
you're killing me with these character names
they knock the wind out of me every time
The favored foe/rage concentration thing is yet more proof of how unhelpful 5e's "natural language" thing is. By your reading, and by most folks normal reading of the rules involved, it could have worked. RAI basically involves treating your concentration as a universal slot that only one thing can occupy and rage disallows use of, but it's never written that way. I like 5e a lot, but that doesn't mean it isn't hella frustrating at times. Too often the rules would have benefitted from even a small glossary defining some explicit game terms. "As if concentrating on a spell" is bullshit.
It's a good thing Wizards gave a statement saying that Jeremy Crawford's tweets are NOT official rulings and don't have to be followed. His initials may be JC but he's certainly not the Jesus of D&D.
If anything, I blame them for changing Favored Foe to use concentration. It was fine the way it was, but the community got so up in arms that it got nerfed into the dirt. And even the idea that you could stack it and HM didn't make sense as we've seen marking abilities not work that way even before we got here. But basically I'm just an old man yelling at a cloud. XD
Weird, from the way the rules are currently written I inferred that a creature can only concentrate on one thing at a time, regardless of what that thing is, and that rage makes you unable to concentrate on anything. Personally I find it incomprehensible that people would read it any other way just because "technically" rage just specifies spells - ignoring the fact that when it was written the only thing characters had to concentrate on were spells.
@@LupineShadowOmega The UA favored foe made it essentially a requirement for every monk to MC into Ranger. That extra 1d4 on 4 attacks no concentration, no BA, was just too perfect a fit.
That said, I think they went a little too far the other way. It should either require concentration (thus not stack with Hunter's Mark) OR be extra damage only 1/turn.
@@richardwhaler8717 "If you are able to cast spells, you cannot cast them or concentrate on them while raging" taken literally means exactly what it says. Nothing more. I know what the rules and the intent are, but I still think my argument is obvious that the game could have used a bit more accuracy and precision in its rules.
Don't forget that GWM also lets you take a bonus action attack when you get a crit or killing blow. If you're attacking as much as 4 times in a round at level 3, the chances are you'll probably get a killing blow on something in that level range, and be able to make a bonus action attack on top of everything else.
For the last two levels, why not take another level or ranger and another level of fighter? Then we can get *two* additional ASIs that can be spent on feats, like the lucky feat which can help us turn some misses into hits and will even help our defense, or increase our constitution in order to make more attacks via our unleash incarnation feature *and* increase our defense at the same time, or even both!
That's what I'm planning to do if I decide to use that build. I'm not a huge fan of druids so I avoid using the class.
Yeah, in retrospect I would probably not bother with the druid levels.
@@TreantmonksTemple could you do a video on 5 armorer artificer/2 tempest cleric/ 13 soul knife or phantom rogue build?
@@Trial88 what is that build trying to accomplish. You have me curious.
@@JoeHero40k armorer artificer uses lightning launcher, tempest cleric allows you to channel divinity to max damage, rogue allows for sneak attack. My two favorite for this would be soul knife for concentration free invisibility to get into combat hopefully with surprise or at the very least have advantage on your first attack. Though with sharpshooter feat and 300 ft range on lightning launcher you’d probably be able to get surprise simply due to them not even being aware of you. Phantom allows you to pass through objects. So you’d be able to go underground or stay in a wall and ambush whomever you’re trying kill. It’s a first round of combat burst/nova damage build that basically you get 60 damage guaranteed flat if you hit, but 120 if you crit. It’s not crazy damage, but it’s fun. I prefer the new dragon monk mixed with tempest cleric for lightning kicks and thunderbolt strike. So you’re kicking people around and moving them as much as you like. Concentrate on spirit shroud so that you’re doing decent damage and now the dragon monk isn’t so bad.
26:59 "This way we can cause a big boom of thunder before we come in and kick everyone's ass."
Scribbles note to self - Have Bobby Roode's intro qued up *GLORIOUS!!!*
No character exists in a vacuum. Team work makes the dream work. I love playing support characters and just letting friends wail on enemies. Cleric of peace is tailor made for the enabler and I've had a lot of fun playing a cowardly goblin cleric of peace who cozies up to the biggest, toughest, adventurer he can find and becomes his best friend.
For some perspective on the amount of damage you deal with this character at high level, here are some creatures that you could feasibly Kill outright on your first turn in combat: Purple Worm, Adult Dragon (any flavor), Iron Golem, Solar, Roc, Storm Giant.
A *Solar* ???????
Imagine just fighting the champion of Torm and demolishing them in 6 seconds
I’d love to see how all of your custom character builds fit onto the tier list you’ve been making
That would be hard, because these are specific builds, while the ranking is based on potential.
I’m glad you gave martial characters some love and acknowledged the important role they play in a party.
1) I feel like not naming her Whoop Lass is a missed opportunity.
2) You're only 7 classes short from an Abserd build. Now I kind of want to see your take on that.
Nice, this comment includes meta from the UA-cam community.
@@comfortablegrey I'm So Meta, Even This Acronym...
8 Classes now, with Tasha's.
I'd like to see an attempt to "Optimize" Abserd. Especially since the Artificer class has came around since. At the very least, they'll have a monstrous list of Level 1 spells at their disposal.
Worth noting if you are focusing purely on damage, Battlemaster with precision attack, and maybe some of the reaction attack maneuvers like riposte, will deal more damage over a course of a day. One precision attack is going to bring about as much damage as one unleash incarnation, and with a single short rest you'll get 10 of them in a day (instead of 2 per day). Slightly less single round burst, I suppose? (Of course, you would miss out on a lot of busted Echo Knight utility, so Echo Knight probably makes a better character).
I will say that I'm not enthusiastic about the spore druid pick, though, cause if you lose the temp HP (and we're talking 8 temp HP), the ability ends and you lose the d6 necrotic damage. Maybe that's no different than losing concentration on something like hunter's mark, but if it makes your AC worse, I'm underwhelmed. I would just take Barb to level 3 and grab Zealot. Little bit of extra damage every time you rage, and one more rage per long rest.
Could maybe use the fighter combat style for Superior Technique for riposte (could great weapon at the start and swap it later to take great weapon fighting as the ranger one.... blindsense can probably be dealt with with magic items). That last ASI could give Martial Adept for 2 ripostes per short rest. And some other maneuvers that won't get used because riposte is more helpful... maybe just social or utility ones....
The busted Echo knight utility does out weigh the battlemaster maneuvers. Having the ability to be so mobile and effectively be in two places at once is just too strong. Its so strong that every martial class should dip 3 levels for echo knight. The battlemaster is my favorite fighter class. Echo knight reeks of Cheese.
@@sharkforce8147 i can see the merit to these suggestions.
@@sharkforce8147 An echo knight can use that same feat slot to boost damage when the Battlemaster is using it to catch up on utility and mobility (finding phantom steed isn't a given either), so a BM is only better at damage if it gives up on mobility. The Echo is easily one of the most powerful abilities in the game and better enables a melee build than anything the BM has. Mobility is king.
This was fun! I really enjoyed it! I always love your builds.
The other day I was reading through one of your threads on an old Pathfinder forum where you were defending optimization. You said that, not only is optimization compatible with role-playing, But sometimes it's necessary in order to play a particular character concept without becoming ineffective. Of course you said the same thing on this channel too, but it was different to read you responding directly to people who disagree.
In my experience, this is not how most of us create characters, though I wish it was. Usually I will find a cool ability, feat, or combination and then work from there. I end up "discovering" my character through the process. I have played some really fun characters that way. But I like yours way better.
I have a suggestion. I would love to see you explore that method more. You could take a particular concept and then show a couple of builds for it. You could maybe include a "you might be tempted to build it this way but here's why you shouldn't" example. This is kind of what you already did with your Mage Hunter videos. How would you feel about more of that type of analysis?
If I come up with a good way to angle it to fit nicely in a video, then I would be up for that.
I'm liking this content... but I do know Treantmonk is doing it to push out doing a subclass ranking for his "favorite" class.
I always think these kind of characters even less extreme ones are undervalued by many. I get control feels more clever and can be more fun for people heck even me as I generally play mages. But stacking bodies is the ultimate control.
Martials are fantastic in a group if you have the really strong (sub-)classes - Echo Knight is great, as is most Rangers and Paladins. (Barbarians and Rogues require some effort to make them work, and of course there is also monks). A Hexblade or any Charisma build that dips into it for Eldritch Blast based builds could be considered a martial role as well. The gap mostly forms in 5e because a lot of players shy away from feats and multiclasses, as casters get the majority of their good stuff just passively by leveling up. Furthermore, there's the misconception on that martials are generally easier to play - many baseline, straight martials have significant shortcomings that lead to excessive burning of spell slots at best or standing around useless at worst if you don't work out your build to mitigate them.
I will however say that noncombat challenges overall are massively pared down compared to 3.5 due to the overall unreliable value of most skills and adventure design moving away from tough to navigate environments.
Finally, the main part where casters truly obsolete martials is stuff like the extremely stacked Tasha Clerics, Bag of Holding bombs, broken Chronurgy interactions and lastly the 9th level spells like Wish and True Polymorph. I'm not endorsing it for play but you won't see this level of broken on a martial.
Totally agree, there are some gamebreaking options in the game. Generally as a DM you basically have to encourage players not to break your game when those options come up.
For a 1-level dip to add some extra attack beef (although it does also cost you an extra feat), I like to weild a piercing or slashing weapon, take Genie Warlock, pick Dao, and take both Crusher AND whichever of Piercer/Slasher applies. It's not improving every attack, but it is potentially significant to have both feats trigger on at least one of them per turn. As well, it gives me this lovely flavour idea where you made your weapon out of unusually heavy material and that's why it crushes as well as doing whatever else it does.
it turns out that a good balanced party with bless is still the best! ty for the outro
Ive got an interesting character who went Echoknight 18 and Barbarian 2. He uses feats for a majority of his ASIs to have two fighting styles Archery, Thrown Weapon Fighter. He also took Slasher, Sharpshooter and Thrown Arms Master (from Crit Role) and I was allowed to take the UA feat Fell Handed because he fights with hand axes.
In addition to this he had an artificer enchant his hand axes to make them Returning Weapons (and give em a +1 as well, gotta have magic weapons of course) while his eventual damage output does not equal yours I think I’ve come up with something a bit unique. I have a barbarian who can kite. He reckless attacks through his echos,can attack at range and yet still be the agro draw with his echo, has incredible mobility because of echos and when he does take a hit can soak the most common forms of damage and deals some pretty darn good damage without putting himself in melee range to do it. It been damned fun to play especially when he hit level 20 and got his second echo.
Starting once the Gloomstalker levels are finished up, if this character is in the dark and gets suprise, I think this character could potentially whipe out an entire party of PC's of similar level...
It's why I love alert and blindfighting on my fighters:)
Even though it makes no strategic sense, I can TOTALLY see a Cleric casting a 9th level Spirit Guardians just to flex when he has more disdain than respect for a particular recurring villain.
I actually came across a case a while ago where 9th level spirit guardians did make sense. It was a game where they took it to level 20, and then had a one-shot "level 30" epilogue with 10 multiclass levels. Paladin 20 Bard 10 ended up with 9th level spells, but at most 5th level spell slots, and up-casted 9th level Spirit Guardians was the best use we could find for the 9th level slot.
I could see doing an 8th level spirit guardians, but I could never see casting it instead of a 9th level spell. Mass Heal is sooo good.
@@TreantmonksTemple I agree. I think its sad that spirit guardians is probably the best use for a lot of the higher level cleric slots. Most high level spells are super situational and clerics I think get hit harder than most.
@@cp1cupcake hey just cause their best offensive spell is lvl 3 isn't bad. That means they don't have to worry about offensive concentration spells as they level and they can pick up more diverse spells.
Personally, I disagree with the druid here, the ability gives temp hp equal to 4 per druid level so 8 and if you lose em if the ability turns off, taking 8 damage at lvl 20 is going to happen always and very easily, and it takes a full action to set up wich you can't do on first round cuz you'd lose out on gloomstalker damage.
Personally, even tough this is a damage build I'd take barbarian to 3 and take bear totem totem as to not explode at higher levels, remember if you go down you ain't dealing damage.
The last level could just be in barb for more hp a feat or improvement, or hex blade for hex blade curse, if you can set it up that's 6 more damage per attack and that's insane
I concur. Hitting Fey Wanderer 3 would add a d4 per round per target of psychic damage without touching action economy, Zealot 3 would give +1d6+1 per turn for two minutes a day, plus they give a sliver more health.
I was thinking the exact same for the Spores temp hp. Going further in barbarian seems to make sense... an extra rage and an extra ASI for more Con so more Echo Knight Attacks seems more valuable than Symbiotic Entity unless you can guarantee that you will get to attack before you get hit AND that you have time to pre use Symbiotic Entity before the fight. If you wanted more damage regardless of defensive ability you could go for Zealot over Bear Totem though... though Ancestors wouldn't be terrible either. Alternatively you could up your ranger and fighter levels and have 2 ASI's if that's worth it to you....
Agree that the druid ability is not likely to carry over into round two. Bear totem plus tough feat would definitely make Whoopi harder to put down after then jump you for 11 attacks. That or Zealot to let your party revive you for free after you go down haha. Hexblade Warlock is not viable with this build due to CHA requirement.
@@Spectrulus Three minutes per day.... you'd have a third rage at level 3. Fey Wanderer is out because it's already a Gloom Stalker for the extra attacks and if nova damage is being looked at over steady damage then it would lose out.
@@Vyke348 I totes forgot Gloom Stalker, because it's so forgettable for me. Still yeah. More barbarian is the way I would take it.
I never noticed that dread ambusher granted an extra hit per attack action... very cool synergy with action surge. Thanks for pointing that out!
Aren't Jeremy Crawford's twitter responses essentially just, how he would rule it at his table? The rage plus non-spell concentration is not the worst call I've seen from him, but it's definitely in the "not supported by the printed text" category (and not alone there, either!)
you're right that what Jeremy Crawford says on twitter shouldn't be rule of law. that being said I think he's right here and I would rule the same way. in the text for favoured foe it says "as if you were concentrating on a spell"
being in a rage means you can't cast spells and can't concentrate on them. concentrating on favoured foe is the same as if it were a spell. it was written that way so it wouldn't cost spell slots to use, and that people wouldn't have to pick hunters mark every time
look at it from a flavour standpoint. if you're a raging barbarian you aren't concentrating on fighting a favoured foe. you're red in the eyes and hitting anything that moves. you don't have time for anything that even resembles a spell
I generally consider his tweets the intention of the rule, which generally speaking I try to follow. In this case, honestly it's pretty small stakes, FF isn't adding much, but it was a pain to have to go back and edit all the damage calculations!
@@jackbuggeln4870 From a flavor standpoint, wouldn't being in a rage synergize well with a favored enemy? Wouldn't it even be appropriate to consider a favored enemy the _cause_ and focus of going into a rage? Look at how often a "blind rage" is portrayed as a single-minded focus on a target in media rather than lashing out at anything within arms reach. D&D certainly doesn't enforce the latter instance by making the barbarian roll a d100 to determine a target for each round.
@@TreantmonksTemple So would you require a 25gp consumed component for casting Protection from Evil and Good?
He said both ways within ~15 minutes of each other.
Or do you flip a coin to decide?
Id be interested in seeing a comparison between this build and other nova builds, like a sorcadin or hexbow
Great video. You should mention when multiclassing into Barbarian you can't use your chain mail or otherwise you can't rage.
And now imagine that cleric is a peace cleric that manages to get their emboldening bond going before they cast bless….or your eloquence bard dishes out unfailing an infectious inspiration for an extra d12 to hit. Or both.
Just FYI, Gloomstalker ability frequently gives you an opportunity to prep before battles. You frequently can get surprise as well.
This is perfect for a villian henchman you want to drop the party's barbarian before they have had a turn.
Custom Lineage is the best race; what a shock. Totally wasn't what everyone was predicting and worried about.
Perhaps I missed it, but did you change out of your heavy armor? Chain mail and rage don't mix as you cannot rage in heavy armor. By level 6 when you start multiclassing into barbarian, you probably have enough gold for half plate but with spells, it seems like the raging is not your primary method of dealing damage - especially if you are going to multiclass into druid later.
Yep, you need to abandon the chain mail at level 6 (scale or half plate instead) and then abandon metal armor at 19
It seems to me one can rage in heavy armor. Are you talking about "Fast Movement"?
@@jrgenchristensen7240 Correct. You CAN rage in Heavy Armor you just don't gain the benefit of the 3 effects provided by rage, namely advantage/damage/resistance. However if you are a totem barbarian you can still gain the benefits of any totem that does not specifically state that you cannot.
@@LeonJagerWulf so basically it's a 'soft' restriction? You can but you get literally no benefit from it. Sort of like Rogues and longswords
@@Wanderingsage7 Exactly.
At lvl 4 on this build when you pick up GWM the target ac for when to use it is 16 without and 17 with advantage. Lvl 5 it goes up to 17 without advantage and 18 with advantage because of the proficiency increase.
You said near the 24 minutes mark that the first turn bonus action is taken by raging. But to be able to nova like you show in the video and use unleash incarnation, you need to have an eccho out. That means the first turn of combat, you need to use your bonus action to manifest your eccho.
The video is great as always, I'm just nitpicking. Nice to see war cleric find a spot in a build even if it's only 2 levels at the end.
there's no time limit on the echo, so there's no reason not to have it out at all times
@@joseluizps95 exactly. As you should already have the echo active, you don’t need to use a BA to manifest it. Granted, sometimes you won’t already have it out so you then will have to spend a turn manifesting, but since there’s no time limit on echos you should have them up all the time anyway. It’d be like a warlock walking around without their pact weapons or familiars ready, it just doesn’t make sense except from the rare situation of trying to be incognito and sneaking somewhere.
@@joseluizps95 100% right. It's weird to summon and/or move the eccho all the time outside of combat (it must be taxing for the character), but it's possible to always have it by your side. I stand corrected :)
This build is almost exactly the same as a character I am playing. In my case I went Ftr(EK)5 / Barb(AG)4 / Ftr+1 / Rgr(GS)4 / Ftr^.
In that sequence, you can start with WIS 10 and then take Resilient(WIS) at 9th Level and ASI(+2 WIS) at 10th, which means you have the prerequisite for Ranger at 11.
Admittedly, I wasn’t maximizing damage over every other consideration. As a tank I think you really need to get your WIS save covered at levels where fear, charms, and dominating effects are simply expected.
You can re-skin the backgrounds of Echo Knight Fighter, Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, and Gloom Stalker Ranger into a mysterious spirit warrior. Start with Japanese Lamellar armor (scale), wielding a Tetsubo (maul) and using a disguise kit to apply Kumadori…you are dedicated to the forest Kami aspiring to join the ranks of Mujina, Faceless Ghost Killers.
When you finally get disguise self…what do you use it for?
I’m Slender Man.
Cool build-thanks for showing what is possible.
Would prob grab war cleric at 1st for wis saves and more power in early game. Appreciate your vids, Chris
changing the 2 levels of druid and one level of cleric with assasin rogue wouldnt increase the burst dmg?
Great content as usual! 😎
If I recall correctly, JC discussed GWF(class ability) and a lot of his thinking was (appropriately) based on “we don’t want tons of rerolling”. Consistent with that idea, I house ruled GWF as follows. For every damage die rolled on a GWF-attack, there is a minimum damage as follows:
d4 = min 2; d6 = min 3; d8 = min 4; d10 = min 4; d12 = min 5
If the player chooses to use GWF on a legitimate hit/target:
Every die, regardless of source counts.
Neither the player nor any allies can use any other ability to affect the damage rolls. No rerolling.
Technically, this is a slight disadvantage in terms of “average damage” BUT it is a significant benefit in that it ensures a “big hit” doesn’t just happen to roll awful damage. If a melee combatant crits with a flaming greatsword and tosses in a couple more dice from some ability…they might be rolling 12d6 and still get…well, 12 would be pretty rare, obviously…but 20-25? It happens, and it just isn’t fun.
What you really want, as a fighter choosing GWF, is some control and consistent damage. You’re forgoing a shield, you’re likely crit-fishing to some extent. Using a “minimum per die” rule eliminates re-rolling and gives the player a “safety net” of minimum 36 damage on a 12d6 “big hit”. If you look at the probability, it is possible to crit-fish a point or two of damage over the rules-as-written. But, in my experience that ends up being 30 vs 32. Getting a straight crit with any weapon and it is either the same or slightly disadvantageous.
But, if you play it out…it works great. There are no re-rolls. The melee combatant that is really investing in “big hit” nova smack downs can still potentially role straight max damage, and is assured of getting a damage minimum better than a combatant-dabble.
But, on average, they don’t do more damage round-to-round.
I’ve been asked about allowing it for other weapons-groups…but, I think GWF exists (and analogous fighting styles with other weapons don’t) specifically to give Conan-style fighters something extra. A finesse-weapon fighter is probably more mobile and maybe higher AC. An archer isn’t in the front rank and taking damage. The tank/beatdown is the character that exposes themselves to the most immediate and punishing consequences in any combat…and in 3 rounds (considering target AC) they usually connect with 2-6 hits. If those dice don’t roll well, that enemy isn’t reduced to 0 hp and will usually respond by attacking the obvious threat…which is the tank.
I told them that the point of the GWF fighting style was to provide control and consistent outcomes to a fighter that was inherently constrained in choices regarding mobility and tactical placement. If you’re willing to lumber forward into immediate melee contact and, in general, stay there…then you have a few moments to make sure, if you do connect, you get a decent blow. A GWF isn’t usually running away, so they can focus a bit more on follow-through.
The point is, the players of the combatant characters preferred “dice minimum” to “re-roll” *knowing that it was usually slightly disadvantageous* especially in early levels when there are less smite abilities and other damage riders. It was much easier to roll a handful of dice without saying “sword, flame-blade, smite, hex” and constantly worrying about which dice were legal to reroll. It’s fast and simple. This was so much the case that, of course, everyone was asking for a version that complemented a different build; rogues, archers, spell-snipers, etc.
So, I completely remove the concentration requirement on favored foe, and I give them another 2nd level ability which is effectively a ranged version of divine smite which does the weapons damage type. The ability is called natures wrath, and what it does is when you hit an opponent with a melee or ranged weapon attack you can spend a spell slot to deal an additional 2d6 damage of the weapons damage type increasing by 1d6 per level maxing out at 5d6 damage. This gives the ranger the boost it desires to be competitive in terms of damage, and the lower damage dice along with the lack of magical damage balances out its ability to be used at range. Additionally, this means the ranger has a much higher burst damage when compared to its original damage output which was more reliant on consistent damage being completely outdone by the fighter.
I'm getting warrior of darkness/death knight vibes from this build.
There is something I don’t understand … how can this build use the “Symbiotic Entity” feature during the 1st turn and pair it with Gloom Staker’s “Dread Ambusher” if it requires you to spend an action to give up wildshape to activate spores? I think I’m missing something. Can someone explain this please?
Holy weppon and bless on that chimera fighter and it goes though the roof.
Chris, one big issue I see with taking Spores Druid is that as soon as you lose the 8 Temp HP you lose the extra damage and it requires an action to do. This means you will not have it up in many or even several combats a day.
Pretty sure its just an optional extra if you can set up before combat then as long you get turn 1 out of the temp hp you get 10d6 damage.
@@staxus that’s a fair standpoint. He just said “You will have up most of the time.” Which i heavily disagree with. It’s still beneficial certainly.
Super late, but another point in favor of Hunter's Mark is that later on you're upcasting with higher spell slots. If you hit 3rd level slots, you can concentrate for 8 hours allowing you to cast it earlier in the day and still be able to use another Bonus Action ability like the GWM ability or a spell like Healing Word, Sanctuary, or if you keep going Cleric levels at the end - Spiritual Weapon.
Now you've got 1d6 on every weapon attack and 1d8 + 2 on the Bonus attack (if you don't crit).
I think Circle of Spores is a good idea still if you're able to get it ahead of time, though all the spellcasting late game seems to make the Barbarian levels useless.
If you rage on round one, doesn't that invalidate hunters mark and zephyr for the rest of the fight? Or is this to supplement multiple combats with only two rages?
On the first round of combat don't you have to use your bonus action to create your Echo so that you can use Unleash Incarnation? I don't think you can Rage on the first round
Just a couple thoughts: using a quarterstaff one handed and with the polearm master feat would work well with this build, and crusher feat, and would allow the use of a shield. With sentinel, it would reduce the creature's speed to zero and allow the 5' push when it came into range. Also, i feel 1 level of peace cleric for emboldening bond, plus the bless spell provides 2d4 for all those attacks would be worth a 1 level dip.
“Might as well rage” I want this on a t-shirt
So, im going through a very similar build, but i have found the list of magical mauls from WotC, and most places i play is sorely lacking. As such, i went with greatsword and slasher instead of maul and crusher. Tons of cool magic swords. Not many mauls.
That ending is so true. What good is battlefield control if you still can't win the fight?
I'd be really interested to know how you would build a full leveled Echo Knight. Multiclassing is cool and all, but I'm always curious to know how the class compares by itself.
OBJECTION!
Unleash Incarnation specifies that the additional attacks are made "from the echo's position". This requires an echo and summoning one requires a bonus action. You can either unleash incarnation OR rage on turn one, not both.
Unleah incarnation is something you do when you attack. Nothing to do with your bonus action.
@@valentinrafael9201 Yes it does. In order to use Unleash Incarnation you need to have an Echo present. That means you have to use Manifest Echo, and Manifest Echo *does* require your Bonus Action.
I have a Kobold Bladesinger X/Echo 3 that I wonder how it stacks up vs this higher levels. First few levels I had to play as a caster b/c damage was basically below baseline, then the middle levels were above your baseline but not amazing, but at 6/3 the nova is 2x attacks + 2x GFB + 2x invoke echo attacks all with advantage. And then if you run into 10 mooks and want to go all out you can do like 150 - 200 with a fireball on the occasion because you're still a pretty full spell caster.
And it would be even crazier if I got Illusionist's Bracers.
Have you done the bugbear gloom stalker echo knight build
Amazing build, change the race to the new Bugbear from MotM and you're first round is crazy! To ensure you go first I might switch out Great Weapon Fighting with Superior Technique and take Ambush, just to add a 1d6 to each Initiative roll.
Why didnt you choose two weapon fighting as the first martial archtype with fighter? Wouldnt that doulbe the attacks?
Love that name. May I suggest a slight variation? Whoopi Nyass.
11:46 I might have put in a quick aside on a Primal Path you could chose if you wanted to trade damage for something else, like Ancestral Guardian, a build you did, is phenomenal at L8 here for protecting the team, and link to that video. (For a L8 one shot, 5AG 3Echo is better). Or the self-centered route, Bear Totem Or Beast for more survivability.
I wouldn't want to be pulling aggro with this build due to the lack of defense built in, also with reckless attack and medium armour at best with rage the beast won't do a great job turning hits into misses. I would say Totem barb with bear totem would give the most bang for buck.
@@staxus 1. Do you know what the echo can do with ancestral guardian + echo? you can draw agro while being protected by your whole party and echo being able to get AoO. 2. At least for the first few attacks, you shouldn't be "drawing" aggro unless the DM is metagaming you, and even then I don't know how much a creature can tell what's going on.
That's true, boy this character is a squishy martial. Bear is probably better for most campaigns. Checking the math: If you have 16 AC and creatures have +6 to hit, they hit you 55% of the time without advantage and 79.75% with, very squishy. With tail it's only 32.5% and 54.3%, 41% and 32% damage reductions. It's more nuanced because it's only once per round, but you get to choose what attack and after the roll. But likely you'll have about +2 to AC from either using a shield, shield of faith, ceremony, or magic items (a party priority would be to boost your AC, should probably get a defense fighting style realistically) This changes the math to 45/69.75% to hit and 22.5/40% with tail for 50/43% reductions.
Toss in the Paladin throwing up Crusader's Mantle and somebody else can Animate Objects for fun. 🤣
Bonus points for ten silver pieces so they're silvered and magical, averaging 90 additional damage per round with this combo, split up to 10 ways.
Side note, not sure why Favored Foe is so strongly suggested if you're not taking 6+ Ranger levels (where the die scales), and just need burst. It's 1-2 d4s per turn, since you only get the damage once per turn - it definitely doesn't stack with Extra Attack.
i don’t understand how Zephyr Strike works for this build, the extra movement/OA dodge is mostly negated by Echo Knight’s teleports and advantage has been taken care of by Barbarian levels.
So you’re left with the occasional 1d8 damage at the cost of a bonus action on a build that is pretty bonus action-heavy.
What am i missing here?
So the damage calculations at the end are without hunter's mark right? Since you can't use while raging
For anyone who wants to play this build going PAM and GWM levels 1, and 4, any suggestions?
Hey Chris. I’m kinda of a newbie so sorry if I missed something important. At higher levels, are we still using rage? If so, does that negate every concentration spell including the ranger and cleric spells? Once we rage we’re committing to no magic, right?
yes if you rage you're not concentrating on spells. You need to decide if rage or spellcasting will be better for each encounter
@@joseluizps95 Thanks. I figured as much just wanted to check. This build stacks up a lot of options to choose from.
Why acrobatics over athletics? The two skills are so close, you can usually choose which to use.
Hi, @ 22:44 you mentione that you would have 3 normal attacks plus with action search you would have 6. I think that is incorrect. Action serge gives one action, so you could use that to attack bringing your total to 4. Could be wrong.
yes you are wrong, action surge gives you another action so you can use extra attack again
If you really wanted damage for levels 1-4, go High Elf, and get booming blade, you can take Crusher afterward.
Can a full spell caster (with 9th level spell slots) get more burst dpr than this character in any way, in particular single target dpr? What about daily dpr?
Could you go into more detail into how you calculated Divine Strike into your Burst Damage? I couldn't find much info online, and I'm working on a build that uses a similar ability.
30:10 What does Divine favor come out to?
Divine Favor should ~2.169 per attack; best is probably to favored foe a number of times, particularly if you crit or think it will add enough to kill, and then also bonus action attack attack. But if you think combat will go on at least 3 rounds, and not worried about losing your concentration, divine favor is probably better.
How would this be affected if a wizard cast haste on this build? How helpful and how much of a boost would this give?
One attack more a round
Bless would be more beneficial but one more attack is fun lol.
I really wish that you would provide Adventurer's League options for your builds. Many of them use content that is unavailable to AL players.
If you go with a 20 constitution, you get 5 Unleash Incarnations...with 3 Barb and 11 Echo you have 3 attacks...
Could Paladin with smites help this build at all? Or magic initiate feat (as i think i wouldnt bother with Druid 2 levels personally)
This question may have already been asked......if raging, does that conflict w/ your echo?
So I assuming even though you took two levels of Barbarian it was almost exclusively for the Reckless attack and almost never Raging, correct?
I think so!!
it's a trade of between hunter and raging since you only get two rages a day.
Did anyone else catch how many echo attacks this build gets in the end?… constitution would have to be max to get full use of that and I’m not sure he got much into con.
Insane damage has a control aspect all of its own... there aren't too many enemy actions coming from the dead.
Not sure Unleash Incarnation works as you think. Like the War Priest feature, I believe it can only be used once per turn, so only one extra attack.
It works just like dread ambusher just up to con mod a day.
When you use the attack action is the only prerequisite to trigger it. So you can unleash on the initial attack and again on the action surge attack.
Can't wait for next weeks bi-curious damage build!
I'm honestly surprised you skipped Assassin Rogue. If you can manage a surprise round, which is honestly fairly possible at this high level, you turn all 10 of those attacks into guaranteed crits.
Is there a reason you didn’t add smite to this character? Lots of attacks means lots of smites which means lots of damage?
Rather than the last minute Druid dip. I think I would take another level in Fighter and Ranger to bump Con to 18. 40 more HP and one more full Nova per LR.
I really like it, on a campaign I think it would be better a third lvl in Barbarian getting Path of the Totem Warrior Bear for the resistances instead of the druid levels. However I understand the extra spellcasting levels are also useful for upscaling spells.
the cool thing is that I guessed the build only by the name
i would have liked to get an idea of the Blood Hunter version
I really like this build I don't know when I never get to play it but I like the fact that you can go sharpshooter instead almost just as easy
I would go something other than echo with Sharp Shooter, since unleash incarnation requires a melee attack.
Some of the BM maneouvres work really well with the archery fighting style, i'd probably go with that subclass over echo knight since the unleash incarnation ability doesn't work at range
@@TreantmonksTemple I like the 5 gloomstalker, 3 assassin, 3 battlemaster build for a ranged damage dealer. Assassin gets trashed a lot but in this niche build its mainly there to add advantage on round 1 which is likely due to Dex + wis to initiative. I take gloomstalker 5 rather than fighter for pass without trace in a campain but for a lvl 20 1 shot i would likely swap that to 11 battlemaster 3 gloom, rest assassin.
My personal fav all damage build has been Fighter Paladin and Barbarian multiclass. Champion Zealot and Vengeance all to make a lovely crit fish smiter who doesnt mind making the cleric go take care of someone else. Just bring me back to life is my motto
I was really expecting a gloomstalker rogue with an action surge dip. Or some crazy smite build…
do you actually need barbarian to get advantage ? Gloomstamler your considered invisible while in darkness, meaning you have advantage. And that way you can concentrate on favored foe
You're not always going to be in darkness though. Meaning you're only strong when you're not lit up is just too big a price to pay i think lol
Treant - A number of people have commented that you are allowing to many uses of Unleash in the first round. Only one per Attack Action. Not per attack. So, 1 vs 2. Also, some have argued that Action Surge does or doesn't double the number of Unleashes that can be used.
It's one per attack action, not one per attack, but if you take 2 attack actions, then you can use it once for each of those actions, or at least that's how I read it.
Now a big question is if you should have a rogue or two to spam Voice of Authority reaction sneak attacks on with your order cleric 1 / clockwork soul X, or if you're still just better off casting bless on Whoopy Yass
You can bless them both (and a 3rd party member) and the rogue still benefits from voice of authority.
Drink everytime he says damage
Can I get level 4 and take 'Resilient: Constitution' first?
Do fighter's and hunter's extra attacks stack together?
No
With your Monk ranking coming up, I think you should revisit the Ranged Kensei. I think Focused Aim, Ki Empowered Strike, and the ability to pick up the Archery Fighting style via a feat have really made it viable. While you cap at 3 attacks per turn, the accuracy you can achieve before even getting advantage is insane. In my calculations it kept up with Ranged Fighters, except maybe levels 1-3, exactly level 11, and exactly 20.
It really picks up once you hit level 6 and get deft strike and it's decent at conserving Ki (spending 1-2 per round). And you can kind of dump wisdom with this build, though you might want enough to be able to maybe multiclass War Cleric or Fighter or Gloom Stalker.
One thing I see with Kensei ranged damage calculations, especially comparing to other ranged builds, is sharpen the blade is used with the assumption of no magic weapons, and I don't think that's going to give accurate information since at 11th level I think it's pretty likely you're rocking a decent magic weapon by that point.
@@TreantmonksTemple Yeah. In my experience a lot of times bow users get Bracers of Archery and Magic Quivers or magic ammo over +1/2/3 longbows but… it’s an unknown. Best to ignore it.
Like it’s a cool thing if you have a secondary weapon (e.g., melee weapon) or find a bow with a great magic property but no bonus. The latter happened to me, and it was almost broken because the bow wasn’t balanced around ever getting +1/2/3 bonus… but for comparisons I’d ignore the feature, because once you have a +2 bow it’s not really worth the bonus action and ki.
Calculating focused aim damage was rough though. I actually had to do a ton of math on the optimal way to spend ki to maximize damage and ki empowered strikes while sustaining over 8-12 rounds. I can dig up my spreadsheets and let you know what I found.
It was surprisingly good. Not A-tier or B-tier by your standards but I think it could cut C-tier. Great damage, eventually great saves, and a few good monk tricks for a tight jam.
But it lacked the spells of a Ranger or the burst damage of a Battlemaster archer.
If you were to revisit the best race today would you still go custom lineage?
Starting with an 18 in your main attack stat when you're gonna be multiclassing a lot is a massive boon and custom lineage can do that.