This video and the short you made along with it are probably the best of any explanation when it comes to layers. For me personally, you made the topic approachable, and i think for a lot of players( myself included)wouldn't even bother otherwise. So, thank you, i think this is a great baseline for understanding probably the most complicated part of magic lol
Thank you so much! That was the goal to make it click better for folks. I hope to share the knowledge with others so that the layers don't sound so scary to people
@@keepingitcasualmtg I started MTG back in Khans, I’ve played off and on since. I know interactions fairly well but had a weak spot when it came to layers. This is by far the best explanation I’ve seen on YT. Also that banding song you made 😂
fun layers fact: giving or removing changeling to or from a creature won't give or remove all creature types as the effect on layer 4 would already have happened, which is why mirror entity gives your creatures all creature types instead of giving changeling
Their is 1 extra layer, layer 0, but that is just anything the card itself does to itself, as in defining what effect it has aka the physical card text
Yeah. There's also an extra "layer 3.5" for the exclusive purpose of applying Altar of the Pantheon that is mentioned in an entirely different area of the rules. 700.5a: A player's devotion to each color and combination of colors, taking into account any effects that modify devotion, is calculated after considering any copy, control, or text-changing effects but before any other effects that modify the characteristics of permanents. This is an exception to 613.10. See also rule 613, "Interaction of Continuous Effects."
And also Layer 8, i.e. continuous effects that set game rules or otherwise don’t apply (things like hand size and things that make creatures attack if able)
@@HazmanFTW there are only 4 sub layers in layer 7. 7a: Characteristic defining effects like Tarmogoyf. 7b. Effects that set base power and toughness like Kudo 7c. Effects that give a + or - which includes stuff like Giant Growth, +1/+1 counters, or Dead Weight. 7d. Effects that swap power and toughness like Twisted Image.
4:00 The issue with reversing the application of an ability if it is removed later is that you will run into a lot of loops that don't make sense. For example, if you turn Dress Down into a creature, then it removes it's own ability, then you need to do back in time and stop it from applying, then you need to go back in time and apply it again since it regained it, ... The way things currently work, it would apply the whole effect to take away The abilities of all creatures, then it would just move on leaving you with a dress down with no abilities that is still taking abilities away from everything else. Edit: you added an example like this. Good explanations.
Just make it so that whatever creates a loop is destroyed and goes to the graveyard. Who the hell is turning Dressing Down into a creature anyway? Must we have an obtuse layer system just for the fringe cases? How many times are you playing regular magic and how many times are you creating weird scenarios on purpose to break the game? That's like saying "let's buy anti rhino window glasses just in case a rhino runs away from my local zoo and charges at my house"
@@pascalsimioli6777 the layer system is only obtuse in a subset of fringe situations. It's active all the time during "regular magic", you just don't notice it. Without a system to provide consistent rules for fringe situations, the Comprehensive Rules wouldn't really be comprehensive. Ever wonder why an animated Mutavault is given haste by Fervor? Layers did that. Ever wonder why Clone won't copy the abilities and stats given to my opponent's Grizzly Bear by the Rancor that's enchanting it? Layers did that.
@@pascalsimioli6777 Your alternative is significantly worse. For the exact same reason the legend rule has been altered multiple times. Weird lands can become removal for blood moon in your world. A player can accidentally destroy both of their permanents, resulting in both them destroying their weathertight and dress down on accident because they were unaware of a niche interaction. This creates far more negative scenarios than the current system and will be more detrimental to player experience. Magic is so complex you can build a functioning Turing machine (computer) within it, the fact that the current system only has issues in extreme edge case scenarios is evidence of its efficacy. TLDR: We definitely should not do that, its an abysmal alternative to the current state of the game.
The more I learn about this game, the more incredible it is to me! The guy who taught me how to play magic tried to explain the layers to me a few times but I never really understood it. You did a really good job of breaking it down in a way that I understood! Sure, part of the reason I didn’t understand before if probably because I’d just gotten into the game and was still learning, but still. This was a really simple and easy to understand explanation! Thank you!
I am not sure how practical this would be, but when you where talking about Kudo I had the idea of simply decoupling the changes so, that in the case with dress down everything is still bears as it applies before Kudo loses his abilities, but they are no longer 2/2 as that would apply after Kudo loses his effects, so that just learning the order would mean, that you can always just apply effects in that order and not apply them early, because they are coupled to an effect on a different layer.
So technically the effects from Kudo will still apply on their layer, it's just that they remember they still will apply despite being lost. If you also have another effect that will set the power and toughness of creatures to a specific value, you use timestamps to determine the result as both that and the 2/2 part of Kudo's ability will apply in the same layer. The real problem with your idea though is that the reason the rule exists is to prevent decoupling effects that are supposed to be grouped together. Ambush Commander's static ability for example has both a type changing effect (your forests are creatures) and a power and toughness setting effect (the forests that become creatures are 1/1s). If you cast Dress Down, the type changing effect (layer 4) will apply before the ability removing effect (layer 6). In that case, we still need to apply the p/t setting effect (layer 7) it else we will have creatures without a defined power and toughness.
Yep, great explanation. The layers work very well at their goal, which is to make most interactions work the way you expect them to if you knew nothing about the layers. Ask a non rules expert how bad moon + darkest hour should work, and they'll say all creatures are black and get +1/+1, obviously. If i mind control a creature, does my glorious anthem apply to it? Yes, obviously. Animate a man-land while you control Hive Stone? The land is a sliver creature. (i think that one's obvious, but maybe that one's less universal) But while these are "obvious", there needs to be a rule to make it rigorous, and that's what the layers do. Inevitably though, any set of rules you come up with will have some edgecases when applied to a game with 10s of thousands of moving parts. Those edgecases can be unintuitive, sometimes *very* unintuitive, but you can't fix them without making something else unintuitive in its place.
It does a wonderful thing of giving us definite answers. It may not always be the most intuitive but there is almost always an answer. I'm not a Yugioh player, but from my understanding they have rulings can be dependent on peoples interpretation and it's hard to know what the definite answer can be at times.
This maybe the first time I have ever felt i understood the layers. Thank you so much for your continued content to teach the less common rules of this game in fun and easy to understand ways!! Im straight up going to draw your layer chart just to keep on hand during my games!
I see a potential issue if we were to start going back up the layers; of creating an infinite regression of layers. A bit like in yugioh with Jinzo and Skill Drain
Great followup video dude. You explained things very very well. I would love to hear if someone answers your question about examples of gameplay that wouldn't work with what you suggest at 3:55.
I love your explanations of MTG rules. I remember understanding priority after one of your shorts. About this video: I think part of the problem is that if there were two abilities as in: "All other creatures have base power and toughness 2/2. All other creatures are Bears in addition with their other types." In this case with "Dress down" everything would be Bears, but they wouldn't turn into 2/2s. There are weird MTG rules, which basically fix wording problems on cards with rule change, but layers work like a charm in most cases, so it's fine.
Yeah. Most abilities with both a type changing effect and a p/t setting effect are ones that turn something into a creature. In those cases it makes a lot more sense why you don't want to apply only the type changing part.
Felt like I heard something similar with dependency so looked up those rules (rule 613.8), but apparently from what I can read that seems to be only in the same layer, so wouldn't change anything in the video. Still wanted to mention it :p
Yeah. Dependencies are important if, for example, you play Archetype of Courage and Kwende, Pride of Femeref. Both are in layer 6, but you don't want to use time stamps since if Archetype entered second, then you would hand out double strike before you handed out first strike. Because which things Kwende affects are depends on what Archetype does, we always apply Archetype first. Of course sometimes we get a dependency loop. Humility and Dress Down do this if you have an Opalescence out making them both creatures. Both of them are dependent on the other since they would change the existence of the other's ability. Because you can't break the tie with dependencies, you go back to using timestamps instead.
Though the layers system works extremely well for almost all cases, the fact that there are edge cases that cause such large amounts of confusion but have seemingly universally agreed upon intuitive results that the layer system doesn't result in makes me think there does exist a better solution for the resolution of these effects that would lead to more intuitive resolutions more of the time. I imagine it's a similar situation to that of pre and post-stack MTG, but I'm certainly not smart enough to create this replacement, but I hope that somebody does find it some day!
I believe that no matter what you do to change the system there will be card interactions that can find a way to break or make that system unintuitive too
@@keepingitcasualmtgpossibly, but I feel that WOTC should still try and do something. There's no (intuitive) reason that, "you lose all abilities" should just not work sometimes.
@BarbeqdBrwniez the team that makes the rules are extremely exhaustive in their approach, so the current result is not from lack of trying on wizard's part. Unfortunately in life and logic, you will always have issues like the halting problem. But that fact shouldn't stop you from trying!
This was a great description, and i think that youre right that layers work for most interactions. I still feel that there must be a way to handle this in a way that doesnt result in some rather wild edge cases like Kudo here.
I don't know. I can't think of any way to completely overhaul the system without breaking things and if we start making special exceptions for individual specific cards or interactions, then we lose a lot of consistently and start requiring people to memorize which things don't follow the normal system.
The only way I can think of that doesn't require a complete overhaul is an additional rule that says any static ability that applies in multiple layers is actually several separate static abilities that can all be on or off independently. Kudo would still make everything a bear but wouldn't make everything 2/2s and I'm having trouble coming up with anything that this new rule would break too badly.
@@fafdsfr Ambush Commander turns things into creatures on layer 4 but sets their p/t on layer 7. If lost halfway through, you have creatures with no defined p/t.
The layers are like some old lovecraftian god lol. One day you'll stroll around without a care in the world, having fun playing magic. Then something confusing will happen, you'll start to gain the insight that there might be something that exist beyond it all. An eldritch truth. The layers are this eldritch god, you were never aware of its existence before. But now, it simply IS. Spooooky. but yea the layers are confusing when you start messing with them like Kudo and dress down. but honnestly i might have had to make sens of them twice in the last 2 years ive been playing magic.They dont need fixing, just to be understood better. Like Ashaya and Blood moon... ok lets not get into that one... XD
one layer ruling i never see talked about is the altar of the pantheon losing its abilities will still add 1 to all your devotions since devotions calculated just after layer 3 lol
Yeah. It has a secret layer 3.5 since you want it to apply after Volrath's Shapeshifter but before the Gods check devotion for their type changing abilities.
Most of the times I get how the layers work, but sometimes I struggle with effects that do the same thing at the same time. For example: Life and limb makes saprolings and forests both green saprolings and forests in addition to their other types. Ambush commander makes forests elfs that are still land, but doesn’t say “in addition to their other type” With both in play, are they just elf forests? Or also saprolings? And if I then use Jolrael, empress of beasts to turn all lands into 3/3 creatures until end of turn. Do they lose the green color? Or does it keep the color because it was already set? (Yes, I’m building a land animation deck 😂)
For things that happen on the same layers that try to change the same object first we go off of dependencies. (Do one of the effects depend on the results of the other to apply itself?) In this case what Forests Ambush Commander makes into elves depends on what Life and Limb makes into Forests. So we apply Life and Limb's ability first making all Forest into Saprolings and all Saprolings into Forests, which then Ambush Commander can apply making them all Land Creature- Forest Elves and no other types.
But in all seriousness, your statement of “it started to apply” makes a lot of sense. It’s like a spell that has to be completed before it can be interacted with (sans Panglacial worm).
@@Zip_yermouth thats an interesting way to go about thinking about it and I think it could be a good way to think about it. Just be careful cause replacement effect do make changes as spells resolve where with layers only other other layers interactions would be able to change it
It's literally just the grandfather clause which just says if I'm doing something before something says I can't then I'm still allowed to do it. The point at the end is the main point. There will always be times where strange things will happen within the layers. You can't switch up the layers to fix this so the only option is like you said. Make the layers work for the majority since it can't work intuitively all the time Edit: it's on the players to learn how to distinguish an ability with two parts vs two separate abilities on the same card
Given the mass difficult that the general public seems to have with apply order of operations (PEMDAS) on social media, I suppose Magic The Gathering will ever reside on the far side of the aisle with the folks who secretly get a bit of a kick when solving a difficult mathematical puzzle (even if they don’t show it aloud).
Wonder if someone could confirm or correct my thinking of this scenario: Omo is on the field with an "everything counter" on herself. She therefore makes herself ever creature type with her 3rd ability. Opponent plays a Sluge Monster and puts a slime counter on Omo. It's ability "Non-Horror creatures with slime counters on them lose all abilities and have base power and toughness of 2/2." Since Omo is a Horror, does that protect her from both the ability removal and 2/2 stat change since type changing effects happen first through the layers?
Omo's ability is a type changing effect on layer 4. Sludge Monster's effect applies on layer 6 and layer 7b. Since those effects happen later on the layers Omo's effect would apply before her abilities gets removed. It will continue to apply even after they're removed
They should take more care in making card design make more upfront sense with the layer system. If Kudo had the bear setting and 2/2 setting as separate abilities, it wouldn't be perfect, but it would be much better.
I didn't realize this was a problem for players 😅 at least the players in my area seems to understand this better lol i appreciate this video so much tho. Thanks. You're definitely right about fixing the understanding of it. Big ups for such a video
One interaction I've been having trouble wrapping my head around is The Jolly Balloon Man making copies of something like Crusader of Odric, or when Porcelain Gallery is on the field (both state the creature's power and toughness are equal to number of the creatures you control) but Jolly Balloon Man makes the copy a 1/1 Red Balloon with flying and haste. Would the Odric/Porcelain Gallery effect happen in Layer 7a, followed by the Jolly Balloon Man setting the P/T to 1/1 in layer 7b making the copy just a 1/1? Or would they both apply in Layer 7a resulting in a timestamp ruling, where whichever effect was on the board first would apply?
So Jolly Balloon Man isn't exactly a P/T setting effect on 7 but actually making the base P/T of the creature it's making a 1/1 on layer 1. Crusader of Odric will no longer have an X P/T to define so it's ability won't have anything to apply to. So we look at it base P/T 1/1, then 7b we set P/T with porcelain gallery to make it equal to creatures you control
Yeah. Here's a ruling from Soul Separator which has a similar ability: "If the copied creature card has an ability that defines its power and toughness, such as that of Sage of Ancient Lore, the Spirit token will still have base power and toughness 1/1."
Hi, love your videos, they are amazing ! I have a question, how does bello ( the raccoon that turns artifact and enchant into creatures) and kudo works ? I mean you go by time stamp (between kudo and bello) or kudo always applies since it happens in an upper layer ?
For the type changing effects, Kudo will apply after Bello since it is dependent on things being creatures in order for it's effect to apply to them. For the p/t setting effects, you will go by timestamps. Note that Bello's ability will have a timestamp of when the card entered rather than the start of your turn.
When effects try to apply on the same layers if one of those effects don’t depend on the results of the effect of the other effect then we go by timestamp order
I think the only solution really is to completely remove and replace the layer system with something that allows effects to work as they intuitively seem to. Or overhaul it from the ground up at least. For example, you could staple to the rules an entire library of every static ability in the game that's continuously expanded with each set and includes the ability to add tags to those abilities. Currently, they already basically have tags in the sense there are many many categories of static abilities and the only way to determine which abilities are what is to read the criteria spelled out for the category in the rules, compare that to the ability, and determine whether it applies. Judges are good at this, average players struggle but can be corrected to learn/memorize. So once you create this library you remove this interpretation step by using tags to indicate what categories of static abilities things belong to, allowing for simple lookups. You can also have tags that list all cards that have these abilities, creating even easier ways of searching it. And you add an additional tag called the layer tag which determines which layer abilities are applied in. The layer system is then made generic, with the current ability categories-layer mapping being a soft recommendation that most cards will continue to follow, but if a card works better in a different layer than recommended it has the flexibility to be put in that layer instead. This also has the extra benefit of making the layer system more modular as the game progresses. If you suddenly need another layer because you have a new kind of effect that doesn't fit the current structure you don't need to create a whole category and rigidly confirm that everything that fits the criteria for that category works right in that layer, you just know you can put the ones that do fit in there as needed. The biggest downside to this is that it makes it much harder for people who want to fully understand the rules as there will no longer be a simple way to memorize the categories of abilities, interpret which categories abilities fall into, and then understand from memorization which layers they go into. You basically have to look it up each time or memorize every abnormal layer placement which is a very difficult task. Still, if the system works in making static abilities function intuitively, then you won't really need to make those assumptions. That last one is a big "if" because this entire overhaul assumes that every ability has a place in the layer system that will allow it to function intuitively with all other abilities. In your example in the video, moving the ability-modifying category entirely caused problems, which is what this is avoiding, but it's entirely possible that one ability alone could have no good position.
I mean, this doesn't really seem like a great solution. It requires so much more work to keep it updated (constant updates for any new card with a static ability compared to the current system which pretty much never needs to be updated) and is pretty much impossible for players to learn. What, I don't really think people are having trouble determining that Magus of the Moon is a type changing effect or that Dress Down is an ability removing effect. Those are both pretty apparent. They just take issue with what happens when they interact. I don't think that forcing effects into layers they don't belong in makes any sense either. In the Dress Down + Magus of the Moon interaction, would you move Dress Down to layer 3 so it always applies before Magus? If so, it now would never apply to things that were turned into creatures, like Vehicles, manlands and Gideon planeswalkers. Moving Magus to layer 7 now means that the lands can no longer gain abilities either. You also need to be clear on the difference between static abilities and continuous effects since they aren't the same. Some continuous effects can be created by a non static ability. Crew abilities create a type changing continuous effect. Some static abilities don't create continuous effects such Notion Thief's static replacement effect.
@seandun7083 Firstly: my point overall is that layers as a concept may not be a maintainable rules structure to make everything work as it appears it should. Second: in the hypothetical overhaul there is no "correct" place anymore, just the location(s) that allow the effect to work most intuitively. Third: using tags, there's no reason to assume they can only have one layer tag. If you decide that you want this ability to catch type-changing abilities and hit cards whose type is changed to be applicable, you could give it both the layer 3 and layer 5 tag and have it be checked twice each pass. The biggest problem with the overhaul, aside from it being cumbersome to learn and update if you aren't writing an entire application to manage it, is that once you turn the layers into recommendations and start moving things around a bit it's impossible to guarantee you can hit the effects you want to by being in the right layer. If a type changing ability is put into layer 2, suddenly dress down doesn't work, and that could be a problem. Honestly, the best option for effects that remove all abilities is probably to just include reminder text so players know "all" does not actually mean "all". But I've always felt like the layer system is already an inelegant solution that was at least worth it to maintain intuitive function. But if it fails on even that function, and seems like it's going to fail more and more as the game is made more complicated, I think it genuinely just needs to be replaced entirely, but even overhauled.
@@RedOphiuchus Saying that there isn't a single correct method for determining their order but instead we just go off of what is intuitive isn't that great an idea. What is intuitive varies from player to player in quite a few scenarios. If we have Dress Down apply on both layer 3 and layer 6 (5 is color changing), then it now applies before effects that turn creatures into non creatures like Swift Reconfiguration meaning that the thing being turned into a vehicle loses all it's previous abilities even though it isn't a creature. The problem you brought up is probably the biggest problem I have with your suggestion. I feel like a lot of people who have a knee jerk reaction to a single weird corner case example try to fix the system without really understanding the ripple effects of such a change so I appreciate you acknowledging them. Your reminder text option is a good recommendation, though it's probably hard to phrase it in a way that it clarifies things without making things more confusing for players completely unaware of the layer system. I should also clarify that Dress Down DOES actually remove Magus's ability, it just does so after it applies. That means that even though non basic lands are mountains, Magus will still get buffed by Muraganda Petroglyphs. That makes it even harder to word it in a way that is accurate, that clarifies things, and that also doesn't require a whole paragraph of text. I would say "removes all abilities that haven't yet been applied", but that doesn't really mean the right thing if you aren't already aware of what it means for layers to apply effects. I think that layers do actually lead to the intuitive answer the vast majority of the time, and some of the more complicated aspects (like dependencies) actually help that to happen more often, but it's really easy for players to not realize that since you generally only need to think of layers, or even realize they exist, when they do something weird. Given the size of magic though, I really don't think it's possible for any system to give the intuitive solution every time. I don't think a couple fringe cases are really enough to throw the whole thing out without a replacement that does at least as well. It's hard to say how they will fair in the future. They have done a pretty damn good job of handling everything that's been thrown at them so far (on a side note, I don't actually know when they were first added. I think it was after the big 6th edition rules change and they have definitely been around for at least a decade, but between the l those points I'm not sure), but there are definitely some cards and mechanics in recent years that stretch them a little. Mutate and Exchange of Words come to mind. Those so still work though.
This is an incredibly huge undertaking that I don’t think is realistic to do. The rules that currently exists works for every card that has been created so far. Overhauling that entire system to work for new cards and ALSO work for old cards (especially weird old wording). It also sounds like the overhaul you’re suggesting is how Yugioh works which that system has its own host of issues
It always bothered me that MtG had *so many* continuous effects. I get it's because discreet timing effects don't have visual reminders, which auras function as, but after playing games where changes to the board state aren't ongoing and instead discreet points in time it's just so much more intuitive.
I think it can be intuitive, but it could lead to more tracking which can lead to a lot of confusion. I think there probably isn't a completely perfect system, but I haven't explored many card games beyond magic
He did make a short about that, but it's a bit hard. For reference, the layers are: 1. Copy effects 2. Control effects 3. Text changing effects 4. Type changing effects 5. Color changing effects 6. Ability adding and removing effects 7. Power and toughness altering effects: --7a. Characteristic defining --7b. Setting base power and toughness --7c. Adding or subtracting per and toughness --7d. Swapping power and toughness
dang it. ok if true then true. SO IF Kudo used 2 different lines of text to describe what it did. other creatures bears. other creatures 2/2. Then a dress down is played, then creatures would be bears but not 2/2. But because of the way the card is written 1 part of the sentence is true so everything in that sentence is true.
Yes. Another reason for that rule to exist is that things can break when your only apply half of an ability that was designed around the entire things being applied, so it's better to either apply all of it or none of it. You don't want Ambush Commander + Dress Down to give you a bunch of creatures, but not set their p/t.
Timestamps apply when 2 effects happen in the same layer and don't involve dependencies. Kudo has an effect with both a L4 type changing effect (turning stuff into bears), and a L7 p/t altering effect (turning stuff into 2/2s). Humility has both a L6 ability removing effect, and a L7 p/t altering effect (turning stuff into 1/1s). In layer 4 we turn stuff into bears. In layer 6 we remove abilities. There is a special rule that says that if an ability has been removed after part of it has been applied, you apply the rest anyways (613.6). In layer 7, we have 2 effects since Kudo still applies. Here, we will use timestamps to order them. Whichever entered first sets p/t to one value, then the later one sets p/t to the other value. Note that Kudo doesn't hit himself so he will always end up a 1/1 even if other things are 2/2. I believe 613.6 is in place to stop things from turning stuff into creatures (L4) without setting their p/t (L7). 613.6: If an effect should be applied in different layers and/or sublayers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate ones. If an effect starts to apply in one layer and/or sublayer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer and/or sublayer, even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process.
Oko's ability consists of 4 separate effects. -"becomes a ... Elk Creature" applies on layer 4. -"becomes green" applies in layer 5. - "loses all abilities" applies in layer 6. -"with base power and toughness 3/3" applies in layer 7b. Of course only the layer 6 effect interacts with Kudo's ability. Kudo has both a layer 4 effect (are bears in addition to their other types) and a layer 7b effect (have base power and toughness 2/2. So in layer 4, Kudo turns things into bears. In layer 5 Kudo becomes Green. In layer 6 Kudo loses abilities. In layer 7, Kudo becomes 3/3. Also in layer 7, we still apply the other half of Kudo's ability since the first half applied before it was removed. So the outcome will be the same. One card that will be different is Song of the Dryads. It removes abilities on layer 4 by using a type changing effect to turn it's target into a forest, similar to how Blood Moon works. Because of that, it applies on the same layer as Kudo's first ability. Since it changes the existence of Kudo's ability, Kudo's ability will be depent on it and therefore will be applied second, at which point it will be removed so won't apply. Note the difference between removing abilities using a type changing effect and removing abilities in an ability that also includes a separate type changing effect.
Ohh wait a minute, does that mean that if dress down changed it's wording from, "Creatures lose all abilities" to "Creatures lose all ability text" (Or whatever the text box is technically defined as) Then it would actually turn off Kudo's and others abilities since they would no longer have the ability before the type change applies?
If it removes text then yes. Since text applies before type, but it would only remove words printed on the card itself. Any abilities that were added to Kudo would not be affected. For example if we played Sure Strike on Kudo, it would retain the first strike
Layers are fine until you hit magus of the moon and the like that keep all abilities even when they get elked or imprisoned in the moon. And im always unsure which cards apply in that category. I know we have blood moon, dryad of ilysian grove, mycosynth lattice, kudos, urborg, yavimaya, sudden spoiling and probably a lot more. But then theres other cards that also statically give abilities to others that i don't think apply like that such as nadu, sorin vengefull bloodlord and tazri stalwort survivor (tell me if im wrong about those😅). The way i understand it, if a card statically change attributes they stay. But if they just add attributes, they don't
Look at the list of layers on his whiteboard. Kenrith's Transformation and Imprisoned in the Moon both remove abilities in layer 6 (ability adding and removing). Effects that change a thing's type, super type, or subtype (Magus of the Moon, Mycosynth Lattice, Kudo, Urborg and Yavimaya) will all still apply after an effect says they "lose all abilities" since those are handled earlier, in layer 4 (type changing). Effects that grant an ability, like the 3 you listed, are also in layer 6. If you remove abilities from a card they granted them to, then since they are in the same layer, you use timestamps. If you play the card that removes all abilities first, then play the card that grants an ability, the thing in question will only have the ability you granted it. If you instead grant the ability then remove it, it won't have any abilities. If instead we remove the ability of only the card that is granting abilities, then we have 2 effects, in the same layer, where one depends on the other for either which things it effects, or what it does to them. Because of that, the one that is dependent on the other is applied last, meaning we remove abilities first.
@@pascalsimioli6777 yes it is unintuitive, but it's also the result of a design that does do the intuitive things the majority of the time, does things consistently when more and always gives a single answer. We need to apply type changing effects before ability removing effects so that things that turn stuff into creatures (the card Living Lands, the crew ability on vehicles, etc) will turn them into creatures before we decide what something like Dress Down, which only affects creatures, will apply to. Same thing for stuff like Swift Reconfiguration which makes things no longer creatures. We can't reverse the effect of abilities that have already been applied without running into loops with cards that turn themselves into creatures like the interaction between Dress Down and Weatherlight Compleated that was mentioned in the video. As a sidenote, the abilities of the cards are still removed, they just continue to apply since they already were applied. A Weatherlight Compleated will get a buff from Muraganda Petroglyphs while Dress Down is out. You can think of it being similar to how killing a creature in response to one of it's activated or triggered abilities won't remove the ability from the stack.
@@pascalsimioli6777 the same people that came up with "Lord of Atlantis (a card that gives Merfolks Islandwalk) should give Changelings (creatures with every type, including Merfolk) Islandwalk" This interaction works this way for the exact same reason that Lord of Atlantis gives Changelings Islandwalk. WotC is fully aware that it is unintuitive, but fixing it will fix like 10 interactions and break 100's of different ones
I’ve always found that removing an ability should just apply on an earlier layer say 3 so it’s after copies and control but before all the static ability shenanigans so that cards that say creatures lose abilities work as templated. Can be super confusing for even veteran players who don’t have an eidetic memory to remember all the layers and how to apply them. Let alone from the perspective of the new player since how am I going to explain to them without sounding like I’m cheating that using darksteel mutation on my Bello the bard deck doesn’t stop them from being elementals
The problem with that is that it needs to apply after type changing effects otherwise Dress Down won't take away abilities from stuff like Crewed vehicles. Ability adding also needs to be after color changing so that Darkest Hour + Corrosive Mentor works as expected. We want to have ability adding and removing on the same layer so that they are decided by dependencies and timestamps (stuff like Mist Dragon also requires it).
The main point is that no matter where you move it, it will break something else. I believe this way breaks less things but still has an issue of something being unintuitive. It’s difficult to make it work perfect
@@keepingitcasualmtg I can agree with this point the current system although not perfect is still a good system that works to resolve irregularities in the game but fringe cases such as these tend to slip through the cracks
So, if we remove abilities in layer 3, one of 2 things will happen depending on how you do it. -You only remove abilities in layer 3, and keep adding abilities in the current layer: If I attach Darksteel Plate to a creature, and you activate Shadowspear's activated ability, my creature is still indestructible. If you cast Exterminatus, it is still indestructible (although it stops immediately after Exterminatus destroys the Plate). If you play Dress Down, it is still indestructible. There is no way to remove that Indestructible without removing the Plate. -You also move adding abilities to layer 3, to prevent exactly what I described above: Lord of Atlantis will give Changelings +1/+1, but not Islandwalk.
i’d love an example of when removing an ability after it’s partly resolved would break the game and not just make rulings different, i’ve done some digging and haven’t found any yet (i feel like there’s maybe something with artificial evolution, faerie artisan, humility, and dress down, but i couldn’t crack it)
Can you give me the explanation with Bello and Darksteel mutation, please? Because I understood the video, but Bello and DsM effects are both abilities, no? What is the explanation about DsM not working on Bello? Just because both happen at the same time? I don't buy that xD Or is it? jajajajaja (The layer system would be much simpler by only doing the Last Effect is the one tacking effect if the effect overlap, imo. Surely it would break some things without an study, but is easier to understand).
Darksteel Mutation has multiple parts to it's ability which each apply on different layers. Layer 4 (type changing) "... Is an insect artifact creature... And it loses an other ... Card types and creature types" Layer 6 (ability adding/removing) "with indestructible... it loses all other abilities" Layer 7 (p/t altering) "with base power and toughness 0/1" Bello also has parts of it's abilities apply in separate layers. Layer 4 (type changing) "... Is a ... elemental creature in addition to it's other types" Layer 6 (ability adding/removing) "has indestructible, haste, and 'whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, draw a card" Layer 7 (p/t altering) "is a 4/4" We apply each effect on the appropriate layer. Layer 4: these 2 aren't dependent on each other, so we use timestamps. In this case, the order doesn't matter. Either way, Bello is now an insect artifact creature and your stuff with mv 4 or more is now a elemental creature. Notice how we have now applied part of Bello's ability. That means if we later remove it, we will still apply the rest (rule 613.6). I believe this is in place so that in situations like this ability, you won't turn things into creatures without setting their power and toughness. Layer 6: because of 613.6, these also aren't dependent on each other, so we will apply these in timestamp order. Because we have already started to apply Bello's ability, the order here doesn't matter either. Your stuff will gain indestructible, haste, and the curiosity ability, then Bello will lose it's abilities. Layer 7: in timestamp order Bello becomes a 0/1 and all the animated things become 4/4s. 613.6: If an effect should be applied in different layers and/or sublayers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate ones. If an effect starts to apply in one layer and/or sublayer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer and/or sublayer, even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process. TLDR, while the type changing effects happen at the same time, DSM's ability removing effect (L6) happens after Bello's type changing effect (L4) so the ability has already started to apply meaning it fully applies.
Just checking my understanding. What I get from this video is that Kudo is basically immune to dress down because of layers? When do we check layers? Is it like a constant thing like state-base actions? Like, I get that there is an order for the layers, but I'm stll not sure I understand the timing around them or WHAT they are exactly.
They’re pretty much always being checked. I believe they’re pretty much checked before we even check state-based actions but we don’t really stop the game and check it. It’s something that’s always being checked
State Based Actions are checked right before a player gets priority, but Layers are updated constantly and immediately, including during the resolution of a spell or ability. It can be handy to think of them as being checked whenever something wants to know the characteristics of an object. Whenever that happens, the game builds them back up from scratch. The order of the layers is the order the characteristics are modified in. 0. Start with the printed characteristics of the card. 1. Apply any copy effects. 2. Apply control changing effects. 3. Apply text changing effects. 4. Apply type changing effects. 5. Apply color changing effects. 6. Apply ability adding/removing effects. 7. Apply effects that change power and toughness. Once you have applied each of those effects in that order, you now know what the characteristics of that object are. 613.5: The application of continuous effects as described by the layer system is continually and automatically performed by the game. All resulting changes to an object's characteristics are instantaneous.
So i had a question about my volrath deck. If the volrath the shapestealer can become a copy of a creature and it's one of the enduring enchantment creatures and that he becomes a copy of a due to enduring circle coming back as a regular enchantment would volrath come back as just a enchantment with his abilities and if so would it be temporary since it says he becomes a copy of a target creature with a counter until your next turn
Both of the effects that set base power and toughness apply on the same layer/sublayer which is 7b. Because of this, we use timestamps to order them. If Kudo enters first, things will be 2/2s and then 2/1s, but if Maha enters first, they will be */1s, then 2/2s.
the part that bugs me about the layer system isn't really the main mechanics of it. it's when it intersects with timestamps and makes headaches, and the fact that all abilities fall under the same umbrella in the same category. I'd love to see you do a takedown of "layer system but after each step there's a tiny step about the abilities relating to that step" like having type step and then type abilities step. like there's probably a reason why it isn't like that but I don't know it yet and it's gonna keep bugging me until I know why
There are actually a couple ways to remove abilities on other layers, they just aren't phrased as ability removing effects. Copy effects apply in layer 1 and remove all the printed abilities of the card since they are turning it into something else. Volrath's Shapeshifter and Exchange of Words both do similar things via text changing effects on layer 2. Blood Moon and other effects like Song of the Dryads, which set a card to have a single basic land type will also remove all abilities through that type changing effect on layer 4.
That hypothetical of "Copies" being *anything under Layer 1* legit counts as a jumpscare. Copying requires two objects (the copier & the copied) that have a relationship (the copy copies the copied). Before you can muddle abt w/ any attributes of an object (& magic lets you muddle w/ just abt any of those attributes), you need to establish what an object *is* first. & at their base level, copies are defined by their relationship to their copied. Copy effects are the only domain of layers where the effect determines what an object *is* rather than what an object *is like*. If you apply effects that modify what attributes an object has before what a copy is copying, then the copy won't have the changed attributes. & that's obviously wrong & counter-intuitive. I also really like the example using lord effects bc lord effects were exactly what made layers click for me as a player. Before you can grant bonuses or abilities to, say, white Vampires you control, you need to establish what is or is not a white Vampire you control. & magic has so many different variants on lord effects (Slivers that affect all Slivers regardless of controlling player; effects that boost all creatures you control of a single type or a single color; lords that change the type &/or color of specific permanents) that they make for a handy, intuitive guide for why the layers are set up like they are.
Wait, doesn't this "layer window" thing go against the Humility/Opalescence example that's always used? I keep seeing it written that timestamps apply to that combo, but shouldn't it be Opalescence wins because it starts earlier in the layer stack?
Both Humility and Opalescence have an ability with effects that apply in 2 separate layers. Humility has: -"Creatures lose all abilities", which is in layer 6 (ability adding/removing) -"and have base power and toughness 1/1", which is in layer 7b (setting power and toughness) Opalescence has: -"non-aura Enchantments are creatures in addition to their other types", which is in layer 4 (type setting) -"with power and toughness equal to their mana value", which is in layer 7b (setting power and toughness) So, On layer 4 enchantments become creatures On layer 6 creatures lose abilities On layer 7b, we have 2 effects so in timestamp order they either become MV/MV and then 1/1, or 1/1 then MV/MV. TLDR, part of their effects uses layers, but part is on the same layer so it uses timestamps.
When would the order of layer 1a and 1b would matter. And the layers should be: Control Characteristic (name, color, type, cmc etc.) Define Swap out (set to) Add or remove Text (anything in the textbox) Define Swap out (change) Add or remove P/T Define Swap out (set to) Add or remove (subtract) Flip Copy effects will be handled during the define sublayers.
1a applies copy effects then 1b applies face down effects. So if a facedown card would become a copy of something else it would still be facedown, but if we turn it face up it will be the face of whatever it copied. I think there would be issues with control and copies with this ordering, but it looks like an interesting concept. What if something were to make something blue and something gave flying to all blue creatures how would that be handled? Timestamp? Would colors be applied first?
Thanks for explaining that interaction, though now I feel that it shouldn't be a sublayer and should just use timestamps. Since they are separate sublayers creatures mutated under facedown cards should have just been added facedown, their abilities are cancelled anyways since they entire creature is "facedown" (with some faceup cards). My proposed version of layers handles the cardface then the textbox then the P/T box, so it would be the same as the actual layers in the example you provided. I assume you were thinking more along the lines of song of the dryads and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in which case it would work on dependencies.
Sorry to reply to your post twice but I don't see how copiable characteristics and change of control interact? It feels like control can be something outside of the layers like ownership.
@@brandontrefethen9971You want copy to be before control so that Clever Impersonator is made a copy of Mind Control before control effects are applied. You want Volrath's Shapeshifter to look at the top card of it's *controller's* graveyard after control effects are applied. (That's actually why they errataed that to be a text changing ability rather than a copy ability. If it was a copy ability it would ignore control effects when deciding who "you" was)
Type changing and color changing being before text changing breaks all the Trait Doctoring type effects since they would happen after the effects they are trying to alter. I am curious, are there any specific problems you are trying to fix with this order? I don't think it changes the Magus of the Moon+ Dress Down interaction since type changing is still before text stuff (which I assume includes ability removing here).
i do think negation effects should have its own layer that's high on the pole. i hate the idea of something saying a cards ability is negated or it loses the ability, but the ability still applies.
It would be tough to do it otherwise as then you'd have the reverse happen. Things that you would want to have gain abilities might not because of the order. I know there was also a suggestion of splitting the two, but of course there's unintuitive things with that as well. Bottom line is in most orderings there will be something that wouldn't make sense. I think they chose this because it would be less frequent.
@@keepingitcasualmtg i feel like it would be a simple fix. either add a clause that says "if a continuous effect would be negated or lost by this effect once, it applies until this permanent leaves the field or the effect is done". i understand it could cause those stupid loops like with the weatherlight example, but i think some wording changes could address it.
@@ninjaman0003 even amendments like that can cause a whole host of other issues to spring up. It’s really hard to realize how many interactions there are in magic and how many cards and interactions can make the game more of a mess. As robust as the rules are it’s also quite delicate
@@ninjaman0003Those loops are the main issue. There's also the problem that if you crew a vehicle with Dress Down out, it loses abilities then continues to have lost them after the crew wears off. We lose the current intended mechanic of how "loses abilities" isn't the same as "can't gain abilities". Mist Dragon for example breaks. You would need to word the fix pretty carefully as well to avoid a host of other other issues that I'm leaving out when just addressing the intention. Also, keep in mind that the ability is still lost in the current system, it just managed to do its job beforehand. That means a Magus of the Moon would get +2/+2 from Muraganda Petroglyphs while you have Dress Down out.
Throwing it in after layer 7 doesn't actually change things since both would be after Mugus has started to apply and encounter the same issues. Throwing it in before layer 1 means that it would cause Archetype of Endurance to give itself Hexproof even when enchanted with Swift Reconfiguration. Having 2 ability layers would also mean stuff that grants abilities that stack, like the exalted given by Sublime Archangel, would apply twice.
Can you make a video explaining timestamps and when they matter? Had this come up in a game with Sturmgeist and the Archon that gives everything base P/T of 3/3.
When ordering continuous effects, there are 3 systems that are used. Layers are the first one. If your effects are in different layers/sub layers, then you will apply them in that order. Dependencies are the second one. If 2 effects are in the same layer/sub layer and one changes the existence of the other, changes the text of another, or changes which objects the other affects, then you apply that one first since the other is "dependent on it". Timestamps is the third one. If 2 effects are in the same layer/sub layer, and either neither of them are dependent on the other or both of them are, you will use timestamps to resolve it (whichever has the earlier timestamp applies first). Effects created by the resolution of a spell or ability get a timestamp when it resolves. Effects from a static ability get a timestamp when their source enters the battlefield. Certain things will give an object a new timestamp such as equipping an equipment, or flipping a morph face up.
I will actually add that that situation doesn't involve time stamps. Sturmgeist has a characteristic defining ability (layer 7a) and Harmonious Archon has a power and toughness setting ability (layer 7b), so the geist always applies before archon regardless of which order they enter in.
@@shrouded8797 yeah. 7 specifically is broken up into: A: characteristic defining ("this creature's p/t are equal to _/_" or "create a _/_ creature token") B: p/t setting (target creature's base power and toughness are _/_" or "becomes a creature with power and toughness _/_" C: p/t increasing and decreasing (+1/+1 counters or "target creature gets +_/-_ until end of turn") D: p/t swapping ("swap target creature's power and toughness until end of turn") I think layer 1 is the only other one with sub layers and they don't come up much.
Okay I still have questions though. So Kudo's ability gets to resolve after you play dress down, but then after the layers have resolved wouldn't Kudo's ability no longer exist? How I'm gathering how this interaction would go: kudo on field, dress down played, kudo changes all creature type to bear, abilities removed from dress down, p/t changed to 2/2 to complete the true=true statement, kudo no longer has ability and all changes to creature type and p/t no longer apply. If this isnt the case then at what point does Kudo's ability no longer apply? If he leaves the field does the changes made to the creatures on the board still remain and only new creatures are unaffected? And what about the interaction between Kudo and imprisoned in the moon? I'm just trying to understand basically at what point would his ability end if his ability is removed from play. I understand the way in which the checks go between the layers with static abilities but at some point the remove abilities portion of dress down has to still apply to Kudo as he is not excluded from the verbiage on the cards so to me (and I'm sure many other people) his ability would have to end and stop applying at some point in this interaction.
Layers are constantly being recalculated, so every time they are you apply it in that same way if Layer 4: Other creatures become bears Layer 6: Creatures loses abilities Layer 7b: Other creatures become 2/2 (since this ability already began to apply earlier) Note that at the end, Kudo wouldn't have abilities so Muraganda Petroglyphs would apply to him. It's just that his first ability has already started being applied so removing it won't stop it. It's like if I paint your wall, then you take away my paint brushes. Doing so won't remove the paint that has already been applied. Once Kudo leaves the battlefield, you immediately apply layers again and just see: Layer 6: Creatures lose all abilities As to why they designed the rules to look like this, I like to look at the interaction between Dress Down and Gideon Blackblade. He has an ability that basically says "as long as it's your turn, Gideon is a 4/4 creature". Under the current system, here's what the layers look like: Layer 4: Gideon becomes a creature Layer 6: Creatures (including Gideon) lose all abilities Layer 7b: Gideon becomes a 4/4 (since this ability started to apply already) We want to apply his type changing effect before Dress Down's ability removing effect since Dress Down affects all creatures and type changing effects could change what things are creatures. We don't want to reverse abilities that have already been applied once they are lost since then Gideon would not be a creature meaning he's not affected by Dress Down, meaning he gets his ability back, meaning he is a creature again... Creating a infinite loop. We want the second half of an ability to still apply even if it's removed between the first and second halves since some abilities are weird if you only apply half of their effects. Gideon would become a creature, but wouldn't have a power and toughness. As to how you could stop Kudo from applying, Imprisoned in the Moon wouldn't work since it removes abilities via an ability removing effect same as Dress Down. Song of the Dryads would work since it removes abilities via a type changing effect which happens on layer 4 in the same way Blood Moon removes abilities. Since it applies on the same layer that Kudo starts to apply, it can remove his abilities before they apply. Metamorphic Alteration also works since it removes them via a Layer 1 copy effect meaning Kudo becomes a copy of another creature and gets all his abilities overwritten before any can apply. Hope that helped.
@@seandun7083so I reached out in a subreddit thread about IITM and Kudo interaction and after a bunch of back and forth I actually managed to get a visualisation that helps explain it better, in this video it's explained as a ball dropping through the layers so the part where I was getting hung up is that once it finished passing through layer 7 it should start the cycle over again. So example: Kudo and IITM resolve layer 4 changing creature types, IITM resolves layer 6 removing abilities, rule 613.6 states that kudos ability must finish resolving so Kudos p/t change resolves in layer 7, Layers start again, layer 4 hits and Kudo no longer has abilities since IITM still resolves and nothing officially states that it doesn't so when Layer 4 starts again only IITM has an ability in play and resolves as normal. The better way to be looking at it is instead of a ball dropping through the layers infinitely it's an infinite number of the 7 layers next to each other with a ball dropping through them simultaneously, is it still bullshit to me? Yes. Does it make more sense to me to look at it this way to explain how Kudo somehow manages to keep his ability? A softer yes but still a yes none the less
@@nicholassutphin6542 yeah. The big thing is that layers only go one way. You don't go through again after you remove the abilities. They are constantly reapplied so that updates happen instantaneously, but when that happens, you start from the beginning meaning Kudo will have his ability again until he loses it on layer 6. If nothing changes, then each time you go through, you should get the same answer. I get that it is pretty unintuitive and it's definitely a bit hard to explain well.
this video just explains why the layer system is broken. with the current system, I can have a card ON THE FIELD that stops the use of all other abilities of creatures (layer6) and my opponent can play a creature that turns all basic lands to forests (layer 4). although mine was on the field first, all lands are now forests because of the ability of the new card being higher on the layers making mine pointless. the issue it has is, priority. what's on the field should take priority over the new effects.
@@seandun7083 that is the case for my example. It affects abilities (layer 6) so anything layer 4 happens regardless. If you have that on the field and I play Magus of the moon, (a creature with the ability to turn all nonbasic lands I to mountains) all non basic land becomes mountains because that happened on layer 4 'type changes'.
@@youropinionisinspired9954 the way it currently works, only abilities that have effects on layers before 6 still apply. Leonin Abunas will stop granting your artifacts hexproof since it is on the same layer and therefore goes second due to dependencies. Benalish Marshal will no longer give +1/+1 to your board since it happens on layer 7. Abilities that apply to players or game rules as well as any abilities that aren't continuous effects like activated and triggered abilities won't be lost. It does quite a bit more than nothing to the stuff currently out.
@@seandun7083 and that's the problem. It makes some cards useless. The card you said is an example. Dress down is layer 6. Even if it is on the field first playing a creature card that has a type change effect still active even though dress down says it can't because it's on a higher layer. That can be solved with priority. Dress down is on the field first so no creatures have abilities regardless of layers. If you played both a creature with a type changer and dress down. Fine, both are on the stack, go through the layers but if dress down was on the field 3 turns ago. The new Magus shouldn't happen.
@@youropinionisinspired9954 again, Dress Down still does quite a lot. It isn't useless. BTW, Timestamps would be a better term to use than priority. Priority has a separate meaning in Magic which is unrelated to continuous effects, while the timestamp system does exactly what you want, it's just the third system we use to order continuous effects behind Layers and Dependencies rather than the first. If two cards are on the same layer and neither is dependent on the other, the one that applies first is the one with the earliest time stamp. Timestamps are usually generated when their source enters or when the spell, activated ability, or triggered ability that creates then resolves, but there are some other things that can reset them like equipping an equipment or flipping a morph. The issue I have is that this is that it sacrifices so many interactions that are currently intuitive with out even fully fixing the few niche interactions you have a problem with. Dress Down goes from reading "creatures lose all abilities except for those that applied on an earlier layer" to "remove all abilities except for those already around". It might be easier to remember, but that only actually changes the Magus of the Moon + Dress Down interaction if Dress Down enters first. If Magus enters first, we get the same result the current rules give. I don't see how that's an improvement. In order to do this, here's a short list of some interactions which are no longer intuitive: 1. Clone now only benefits from Glorious Anthem or Fervor if they are played after it. Otherwise, they grant the buffs and then are overwritten by the copy effect. 2. If you Mind Control my creature, it still benefits from *my* Glorious Anthem and Fervor that were already out, but not the ones you already had since they have an earlier timestamp than the control effect. 3. If you Trait Doctoring on Blood Moon to change mountain into Island, then it has no effect since Blood Moon has already applied due to having the earlier timestamp. 4. Crewing a vehicle after playing Glorious Anthem or Fervor won't let the vehicle benefit from them since they apply before it becomes a creature. Casting Swift Reconfiguration on your own Archetype of Endurance still lets it give itself Hexproof since it does so before it stops being a creature. 5. Darkest Hour only synergizes with Bad Moon if played first. 6. Corrosive Mentor only synergizes with Darkest Hour if played second. 7. Benalish Marshal still applies if played before Dress Down. 8. Crewing a Vehicle while you have a Maskwood Nexus out doesn't give it any creature types. 9. Every single aura that says "enchanted creature loses all abilities" can no longer take away *any* static abilities that apply continuous effects from the creature since they all will have an earlier timestamp. Examples 1-7 include an effect from the appropriate layer. 8 includes one that currently utilizes dependencies. 9 is one which I hope shows you why "loses abilities" effects in particular would collapse under your proposed system.
If a legendary creature, like (Rayami, first of the Fallen) is equipped with (Psychic Papers) and then a clone, like (Phantasmal Image) enters the battlefield does the phantasmal immage clone enter with the name Rayami or the chosen name from psychic papers??!! 🤔🤔🤔🤔
Psychic Papers changes the name and is therefore a text changing effect that applies in layer 3. The copiable effects however are the characteristics immediately after applying only layer 1 effects. Therefore, the clone will be called Rayami. 612.8: Some cards create a continuous effect that sets the name of an object. This changes the text that represents the object's name. That object loses any names it had and has only the specified name. 613.2c: After all rules and effects in layer 1 have been applied, the object's characteristics are its copiable values. (See rule 707.2.)
I had no idea layers existed. Let me see if I understand this right. Even though you play dress down... all creatures are still 2/2 bears? If that is how it works, it makes no sense. It seems like it would severely limit your options in a lot of scenarios. Isn't that kind of the point of cards like Dress down? To stop the abilities from happening. But because of layers... if those abilities touch any layer higher than Dress Down... Dress down is useless on them. As a returning player, I find that not very user friendly. If I read a card that says Creatures lose all abilities, then I expect creatures to lose all abilities. I assume there was issues that brought about the need for the stack, I would be interested in hearing what they were. I've been away from MTG for about 10 years now, so I am still catching up on a lot of the changes.
The stack made it easier to process what was going on. There are still ways to deal with the bear, but they have to operate on layers before the bear could apply
Layers (used for ordering continuous effects that apply to things) are different than the stack (used for ordering resolving spells, activated abilities and triggered abilities), but yes there are reasons for them. I can also say that while I don't know when exactly layers were added, and I'm sure they have changed over the years, they were around 10 years ago. They just do most of their work behind the scenes so people only need to talk about them when something weird happens. One interaction that I find helps to illustrate why they designed them in a way that led to the Dress Down + Kudo Interaction is the interaction between Dress Down and Gideon Blackblade. Gideon is a Planeswalker with a static ability that turns him into a 4/4 creature as long as it's your turn. You want type changing effects to apply before ability removing effects so that he turns into a creature before Dress Down checks which things are creatures in order to apply it's effect. You don't want to retroactively reverse the effects of abilities that are later removed since if you did, Gideon losing abilities would make him no longer a creature, meaning he doesn't lose his abilities, meaning he is a creature so he does lose them... You want to apply the remaining effects of an ability if it is removed after some but not all of them were applied so that Gideon can still set his P/T to 4/4 on layer 7 (p/t changing effects) even though his ability was removed on layer 6 (ability adding/removing effects). LMK if you have any other questions.
Nice video, but still feel the layer system/paradigm is a net negative for the game. its unnecessarily confusing when cards doesn't do what the cards text says, e.g, dress down + the bear. Why not just have the last card played has priority.
Confusing, sure. Unnecessarily so is a different story. Dress Down + Gideon Blackblade might be a good example to explain why both Kudo and Magus of the Moon work the way they do under Dress Down. He has an ability that says: "During your turn, Gideon Blackblade is a 4/4 Human Soldier creature with indestructible that's still a planeswalker." We apply Gideon and other type changing effects first so that we know which permanents are creatures before applying Dress Down which only affects creatures. We don't retroactively reverse Gideon's ability because then it wouldn't be a creature so it wouldn't have it's abilities removed, so then it would be a creature and would have then removed, and so on. Applying layers in a single direction without going back stops that. We apply the rest of the ability's effects even though it's turned off halfway through so we don't turn him into a creature without setting his power and toughness.
In my opinion it's a net positive when two interactions that can be interpreted in multiple ways has one definite result. A game like Yugioh has this issue where there are multiple interpretations of a card and either way could be argued and by the end of it there isn't really a solid answer.
Magic USED to use timestamps to solve these interactions instead of layers, as you are suggesting. It gone done away with because people didn't like that an effect that only affects their board was capable of buffing your opponent's Clones, which in turn didn't benefit from "All black creatures get +1/+1" if they became black creatures.
The layers are there for tournament play and competitive. I hate hearing complaints from commander players. If you're playing casually, rule it however you want. The rules can be "this way because I said so". Just play what feels right. I'm sure this is happening more than people want to think about anyway.
In order for this to click for me I'd have to play it out in person with an actual interaction. I can understand the logic behind it, but applying it is a whole different matter
Yes. Layer 4: Kudo makes things bears. Layer 6: Dress Down removes abilities, but doesn't reverse ones that already applied. Layer 7b: Kudo is allowed to finish it's ability since it already started it, so it makes things 2/2s. Layer 7c: If you also have Muraganda Petroglyphs, All your creatures including Kudo will get +2/+2 since they don't have abilities (even though Kudo applied his before it was removed).
No. The stack is what keeps track of the spells and abilities that are about to happen and allows you to respond to things. If you cast Giant Growth in response to a Lightning Bolt to save the creature being targeted, Giant Growth goes above Lightning Bolt on the stack meaning it resolves first. Layers keep track of the order that we apply continuous effects which change the characteristics of permanents and other things. If you crew a vehicle and play a Glorious Anthem, we will always apply the effect that is turning the vehicle into a creature before the effect that gives your creatures +1/+1 regardless of the order they happened because type altering effects (layer 4) are applied before power and toughness altering effects (later 7).
Why is it that a +1 counter cancels out a -1 counter (allowing infinite persist etb shenanigans) but when I cycle avian oddity to give a flying counter and then equip colossus hammer, the creature loses flying but retains the counter? There’s nothing on cards that explicitly says a +1 removes a -1. If anything the creatures should retain the -1 counter but the +1 still keeps the P/T basically a net neutral. Layers is needlessly convoluted and wouldn’t be that way if wotc had just tried to keep card design somewhat leveled but the games been out for so long they ran out of ideas and had to start doing absolutely wacky shitt
Counters cancelling isn't a layers thing, it's a state based action thing. 704.5: The state-based actions are as follows: 704.5q: If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it. The Colossus Hammer situation is also a bit different. It's more similar to a +1/+1 counter and a Sicken on the same creature than it is two counters. It works via timestamps, which are a way to resolve conflicts in the same layer. Since you gave it the flying counter first and then equipped the "it loses flying" equipment, it gains and then loses flying. If you had reversed them, it would lose then gain flying since Hammer doesn't say "can't gain flying". The Hammer Time deck in modern actually abuses this by activating Inkmoth Nexus, equipping, then activating again to give it flying again. As to why the counter cancelling rule exists, I think the primary reason is that if you had to track both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on the same object, it would be easy to make mistakes and forget which was which. That's also why they try to avoid doing +1/+1 counters if they have another kind of counter as a big mechanic in a set (-1/-1 or oil). Also, I think you are vastly overestimating how long it took Wizards to start doing Wacky things. Blood Moon, Opalescence and Humility all came out before 6th edition in 1999, which was when the stack was invented. MTG is the first trading card game so they stayed designing cards before anyone knew what "Wacky" was.
Layers are not "needlessly convoluted." They are the way they are so that in 95% of situations, players can apply them intuitively without ever needing to learn how they work, 4.99% of the time you will have to understand the order but it'll still make sense, and then 0.01% of the time there is a niche edge case that doesn't work how anyone would intuitively expect. All black creatures get +1/+1 (Bad Moon)? Okay, then turning this creature black (Deathlace) gives it +1/+1. Untapped creatures you control get +0/+2 (Castle)? Okay, then turning an untapped Forest into a creature (Living Lands) gives it +0/+2. All swamps are 1/1 creatures (Kormus Bell)? Okay, then turning a land into a Swamp (Evil Presence) also makes it a 1/1 creature. I used these specific examples for 2 reasons: First, every effect listed here is from Limited Edition Alpha, Magic's very first set, so the game had not "been out for so long." Second, if you agreed with every interaction here...Then you can thank layers, because none of these scenarios describe how they worked back in 4th Edition, before layers existed (using 4th Edition rules instead of Alpha rules, because prior to 4th Edition, any player could arbitrarily decide how the game worked by winning a coin flip). You wanted a white creature to get buffed by Bad Moon? Too bad, your Deathlace doesn't make it get buffed. Wanted your Castle to buff your 1/1 Forest creatures? Too bad, they turn into 1/1's. Wanted to make an opponent's Mountain into a 1/1 creature to kill it easier? Nope, it's a Swamp but is still unaffected by Kormus Bell.
"Loses all abilities" at the end of the day isn't intuitive I think because it doesn't do what it says it does intuitively, I do understand how it works, but if you played the Magus of the Moon+Imprisoned in the moon combo to someone to basically make an un-interactable bloodmoon land that didn't really effect itself (Mountain that can only make colorless mana as I understand it) I fully understand why people would be confused and angry. Humility Opalescence is actually easier to explain than Moon nonsense imo. Something like "Loses all oracle text" or "loses all abilities and continuous effects" on the cards that say "Loose all abilities" would be required for the cards to work how people think they work. tl;dr I don't think its a problem with layers but more the "Loses all abilities" cards not playing as people would expect them to work Question though is true polymorph a simple copy card or is it an effect which goes and changes one card into another layer by layer
- 'Lose all abilities and continuous effects' is certainly not a solution. Cards don't have continuous effects. Continuous effects are created by static abilities on cards (or by the resolution of a spell, activated ability or triggered ability, e.g. 'creatures you control get +1/+1 until end of turn'). - 'Loses all oracle text' is not supported by the rules, and oracle text actually includes name, type line, p/t and even color and mana cost. 'Loses its text box' is likely what you'd want (text box already being defined as just the abilities, for Exchange of Words). This, being a text-changing effect, would apply in layer 3, and by virtue of dependencies it would also correctly remove its fellow text-changing effects. It would still not affect copy effects (which is probably fine) and control changing effects (which could still be counter-intuitive - Mind Control will still be immune to having its abilities removed). - True Polymorph is a simple copy effect.
@@Felixr2 another unintuitive thing about "loses it's text box" is that if you change Dress Down to that, it stops affective vehicles but still forces a Klothys to be a creature regardless of devotion. Effects that add abilities will also always apply later regardless of timestamp.
I think this is an interesting idea of changing certain language and definitions to make more intuitive sense for players. I wonder if there is a way to do that
@@seandun7083 I mean, intuitively I think most people would say that removing Klothys's ability that makes it not be a creature SHOULD mean that it's a creature now. Your point on it not counteracting effects that add abilities is certainly valid. At that point you'd need 'Loses its text box and all abilities and cannot gain abilities'.
@@Felixr2 Should Klothys lose abilities if it's not currently a creature? There's also the example in the video about abilities like Wetherlight Compleat or Living Metal (on the Transformers cards) which make something into a creature.
If you look at the interaction between Gideon Blackblade and Dress Down, it might help to explain the reasoning behind both the Magus of the Moon example and the Kudo one. Gideon has a static ability that turns himself into a 4/4 creature as long as it's your turn. We want to apply type changing effects first so that Gideon becomes a creature before Dress Down applies it's effect to "all creatures". We don't want to retroactively reverse the application of abilities that already applied. If we did, Gideon would become a creature, meaning it loses abilities, meaning it's no longer a creature, meaning it regains abilities, meaning it becomes a creature, ... forever. We want to apply the rest of an ability with 2 effects even if the ability is removed in between so that Gideon's ability won't turn him into a creature but fail to set his power and toughness.
Aren't you overcomplicating things? Stormkirk is a continuous effect so it will give FS to any new vampire on the battlefield unless you remove Stormkirk Captain effect, or destroy the creature. Am I missing something here? Just make it so that continuous effects are continuous until interrupted and let's find a fix for loops
Of course Stromkirk Captain should buff other cards that are vampires, but what if one thing turns another into a vampire or removes the type of vampire? In that case, we want to make sure we apply all the effects that change types before we apply SC's effect which grants abilities and a power/toughness boost only to vampires. That's the intuitive answer, which is why layers applies type changing effects before effects that add/remove abilities and ones that alter p/t.
The example was to show how it would apply if we changed the system around. It was to illustrate or even ask how would continuous effects apply with each other? How should they apply with each other so that we can get a definite result so that there won’t be a clash of different interpretations.
"I pay 2 mana to remove all abilities from your creature so I'm safe from its ability!" - Me, a noob playing magic in an intuitive way. "Actually, how about you pay 2 mana and nothing happens?" - The layers. "But the card says..." Me, still a noob. "Lol. Lmao even. Did you really think reading the card explains the card? You fool. You clown." - The layers.
this all just makes me want to play the game less. its not that i dont understand it, it just overcomplicates things. its like the layer system is its own meta game that just saps the fun out of the game i actually want to play. id rather play the game wrong and have fun than sit there trying to figure out when layers take effect and blah blah blah itll make games take way longer. if the card says it, im doing it.
i don't think layers suck. i think how hard to remember the layers suck. i should literally just make a reference card of layers just so i can remember it better.
Sure. It's also always helped me to think about why they are ordered the way they are, though that only helps if you can remember which layers exist. If you have easy excess to the CR, then 613.1a-g has a handy list.
I get that I might make a video to try to make it a bit easier to remember, but it does take a bit of getting used to. An acronym I'm going to put out there is: CCTTCAP Copy Control Text Type Color Abilities Power and Toughness Might still be tricky remembering which C is copy/control and which T is text/type, but I'll try to refine it as I go
It's not particularly helpful to bash people when trying too teach them something, but it can definitely be annoying if someone is incredibly convinced of something that is flat out incorrect.
@@seandun7083 you could have the most recent, highest CMC, enchantment apply it's effect first. Then continue down the line. But the specific rule doesn't matter as long as it's simple and that no cards that break that rule are printed.
@@LightPink I mean, mana value doesn't work since not all continuous effects are from permanents. +1/+1 counters and ability counters don't have a mv. Timestamps is one method, but it often leads to results that are less intuitive than the current system. Using Clone on a Arcbound Worker would lead to a 2/2 creature (since the copy effect has a later time stamp than three Arcbound Worker's +1/+1 counter). Playing Fervor then Living Lands leads to your forest creatures not having haste (creatures get haste before forests become creatures). Any other single metric for ordering continuous effects WILL lead to weird outcomes. Simplicity is nice, but one advantage that layers have is that for the vast majority of situations, they lead to an intuitive outcome. You could rebuild the game but removing a whole bunch of continuous effects, but that leads to such a loss of design space that it's a different game entirely, and I'm not convinced it's a better one.
@@LightPink I mean, let's just look at type changing effects and ability granting effects. If you have Nature's Revolt and Fervor, turning your land into creatures should always happen before you give your creatures haste so that you know which permanents actually are creatures. The only way I see to make sure that that always happens (at least while remaining relatively simple) is just to say that type changing effects happen before ability granting effects. Both of those effects are also used everywhere. Manlands, vehicles, and stuff like Arcane Adaptation are some of the most common type changing ones. Ability granting appears everywhere from Mighty Leap to Nadu. Do you see another way to maintain the intuitive interactions between those two types of effects while making things any simpler? In terms of the rest of the layers, we could maybe remove text changing and color changing since not as many cards care about those, but I also don't really see as many rules questions about them because of that.
But the layers DON'T make intuitive sense. It was a failure in design. There isn't a single player in the history of MTG who understood layers intuitively the first time they played. Abilities wiping cards should exist OUTSIDE of the layer system. blanking cards. the layers can still resolve but the cards are still blanked.
Should Dress Down happen before or after the effects of the card Living Lands are applied? Should Dress Down happen before or after the effects of Benalish Marshal are applied? If your answers are "after" and "before", then congrats. You just placed layer 6 between layers 4 and 7. People don't understand the specific rules on how layers function when they are new any more then they understand APNAP order, but I think that just like APNAP, layers offer a system that both makes the intuitive answer correct the majority of the time as well as providing a consistent answer to all possible interactions. Another important point is that the simplest system isn't the same as the most intuitive one. There are parts of the layers system that are made more complex to support people's intuition. Only using timestamps would be simpler than using layers, dependencies, and timestamps, but that would lead to plenty of weird interactions like Dress Down not affecting crewed Vehicles that enter after it does.
@@shadowlife15then Dress Down will never remove the abilities of Vehicles or animated lands, but will remove the effects of stuff enchanted by Swift Reconfiguration which removes the type "creature".
@@seandun7083 Not if ability wiping cards aren't in the layer system at all. "does this card wor.... NOPE! BLANKED!" would be the response for every single card in the game.
@@shadowlife15 so the only ones allowed are the ones that remove abilities from all permanents? Or is it just that dress down would remove abilities from anything that is gaining OR losing the type creature? What if Dress Down is itself turned into a creature? What if we have both an animated Dress Down and an animated Humility? Other creatures will presumably not have abilities, but will they be 1/1?
This video and the short you made along with it are probably the best of any explanation when it comes to layers. For me personally, you made the topic approachable, and i think for a lot of players( myself included)wouldn't even bother otherwise. So, thank you, i think this is a great baseline for understanding probably the most complicated part of magic lol
Thank you so much! That was the goal to make it click better for folks. I hope to share the knowledge with others so that the layers don't sound so scary to people
@@keepingitcasualmtg I started MTG back in Khans, I’ve played off and on since.
I know interactions fairly well but had a weak spot when it came to layers. This is by far the best explanation I’ve seen on YT. Also that banding song you made 😂
fun layers fact: giving or removing changeling to or from a creature won't give or remove all creature types as the effect on layer 4 would already have happened, which is why mirror entity gives your creatures all creature types instead of giving changeling
Changeling being on the type layer is so weird
Now we need a shirt with "THE LAYERS SYSTEM F*CKED! 😩"
😆😆😆
Their is 1 extra layer, layer 0, but that is just anything the card itself does to itself, as in defining what effect it has aka the physical card text
Yeah. There's also an extra "layer 3.5" for the exclusive purpose of applying Altar of the Pantheon that is mentioned in an entirely different area of the rules.
700.5a: A player's devotion to each color and combination of colors, taking into account any effects that modify devotion, is calculated after considering any copy, control, or text-changing effects but before any other effects that modify the characteristics of permanents. This is an exception to 613.10. See also rule 613, "Interaction of Continuous Effects."
And also Layer 8, i.e. continuous effects that set game rules or otherwise don’t apply (things like hand size and things that make creatures attack if able)
There's also 5 sublayers in layer 7.
@@HazmanFTW there are only 4 sub layers in layer 7.
7a: Characteristic defining effects like Tarmogoyf.
7b. Effects that set base power and toughness like Kudo
7c. Effects that give a + or - which includes stuff like Giant Growth, +1/+1 counters, or Dead Weight.
7d. Effects that swap power and toughness like Twisted Image.
@@seandun7083 That is relatively new: counters used to be their own sublayer
4:00 The issue with reversing the application of an ability if it is removed later is that you will run into a lot of loops that don't make sense.
For example, if you turn Dress Down into a creature, then it removes it's own ability, then you need to do back in time and stop it from applying, then you need to go back in time and apply it again since it regained it, ...
The way things currently work, it would apply the whole effect to take away The abilities of all creatures, then it would just move on leaving you with a dress down with no abilities that is still taking abilities away from everything else.
Edit: you added an example like this.
Good explanations.
Haha thank you
Just make it so that whatever creates a loop is destroyed and goes to the graveyard. Who the hell is turning Dressing Down into a creature anyway? Must we have an obtuse layer system just for the fringe cases? How many times are you playing regular magic and how many times are you creating weird scenarios on purpose to break the game? That's like saying "let's buy anti rhino window glasses just in case a rhino runs away from my local zoo and charges at my house"
we shouldn't need to loop at all, just change the way continuous effects are resolved.
@@pascalsimioli6777 the layer system is only obtuse in a subset of fringe situations. It's active all the time during "regular magic", you just don't notice it. Without a system to provide consistent rules for fringe situations, the Comprehensive Rules wouldn't really be comprehensive.
Ever wonder why an animated Mutavault is given haste by Fervor? Layers did that.
Ever wonder why Clone won't copy the abilities and stats given to my opponent's Grizzly Bear by the Rancor that's enchanting it? Layers did that.
@@pascalsimioli6777 Your alternative is significantly worse. For the exact same reason the legend rule has been altered multiple times. Weird lands can become removal for blood moon in your world. A player can accidentally destroy both of their permanents, resulting in both them destroying their weathertight and dress down on accident because they were unaware of a niche interaction. This creates far more negative scenarios than the current system and will be more detrimental to player experience. Magic is so complex you can build a functioning Turing machine (computer) within it, the fact that the current system only has issues in extreme edge case scenarios is evidence of its efficacy.
TLDR: We definitely should not do that, its an abysmal alternative to the current state of the game.
The more I learn about this game, the more incredible it is to me! The guy who taught me how to play magic tried to explain the layers to me a few times but I never really understood it. You did a really good job of breaking it down in a way that I understood! Sure, part of the reason I didn’t understand before if probably because I’d just gotten into the game and was still learning, but still. This was a really simple and easy to understand explanation! Thank you!
I’m glad it helped!
I am not sure how practical this would be, but when you where talking about Kudo I had the idea of simply decoupling the changes so, that in the case with dress down everything is still bears as it applies before Kudo loses his abilities, but they are no longer 2/2 as that would apply after Kudo loses his effects, so that just learning the order would mean, that you can always just apply effects in that order and not apply them early, because they are coupled to an effect on a different layer.
So technically the effects from Kudo will still apply on their layer, it's just that they remember they still will apply despite being lost. If you also have another effect that will set the power and toughness of creatures to a specific value, you use timestamps to determine the result as both that and the 2/2 part of Kudo's ability will apply in the same layer.
The real problem with your idea though is that the reason the rule exists is to prevent decoupling effects that are supposed to be grouped together. Ambush Commander's static ability for example has both a type changing effect (your forests are creatures) and a power and toughness setting effect (the forests that become creatures are 1/1s).
If you cast Dress Down, the type changing effect (layer 4) will apply before the ability removing effect (layer 6). In that case, we still need to apply the p/t setting effect (layer 7) it else we will have creatures without a defined power and toughness.
its just like on courts, its komplex as hell and doesnt make sense but somehow it works until it doesnt.
Courts as in the justice system?
Or programming code.
Yep, great explanation. The layers work very well at their goal, which is to make most interactions work the way you expect them to if you knew nothing about the layers. Ask a non rules expert how bad moon + darkest hour should work, and they'll say all creatures are black and get +1/+1, obviously. If i mind control a creature, does my glorious anthem apply to it? Yes, obviously. Animate a man-land while you control Hive Stone? The land is a sliver creature. (i think that one's obvious, but maybe that one's less universal)
But while these are "obvious", there needs to be a rule to make it rigorous, and that's what the layers do. Inevitably though, any set of rules you come up with will have some edgecases when applied to a game with 10s of thousands of moving parts. Those edgecases can be unintuitive, sometimes *very* unintuitive, but you can't fix them without making something else unintuitive in its place.
It does a wonderful thing of giving us definite answers. It may not always be the most intuitive but there is almost always an answer. I'm not a Yugioh player, but from my understanding they have rulings can be dependent on peoples interpretation and it's hard to know what the definite answer can be at times.
This maybe the first time I have ever felt i understood the layers. Thank you so much for your continued content to teach the less common rules of this game in fun and easy to understand ways!! Im straight up going to draw your layer chart just to keep on hand during my games!
Glad it helped!
I see a potential issue if we were to start going back up the layers; of creating an infinite regression of layers. A bit like in yugioh with Jinzo and Skill Drain
Yes that is absolutely one reason why we don’t go back
I spent a day googling layer rules and put them in a fold out sheet I called "why you hate Humility" that I carry with me in my Humility deck
😆😆 Have notes ready for game play
Saving this for later when it inevitably comes up while playing my Kudo deck xD
Good luck!
To the people who hate layers, try playing with timestamps instead and see how fun that experience is.
That was legitimately beautiful
Thank you!
Thank you very much, boss. This helps a lot. All of your Magic shorts are great. Keep up the good work!
Thank you so much! Glad it helped!
Great followup video dude. You explained things very very well. I would love to hear if someone answers your question about examples of gameplay that wouldn't work with what you suggest at 3:55.
Ambush Commander + Dress Down would make your forests into creatures with an undefined p/t if you could remove only the layer 7 part of it.
I love your explanations of MTG rules. I remember understanding priority after one of your shorts.
About this video: I think part of the problem is that if there were two abilities as in:
"All other creatures have base power and toughness 2/2.
All other creatures are Bears in addition with their other types."
In this case with "Dress down" everything would be Bears, but they wouldn't turn into 2/2s.
There are weird MTG rules, which basically fix wording problems on cards with rule change, but layers work like a charm in most cases, so it's fine.
Yeah. Most abilities with both a type changing effect and a p/t setting effect are ones that turn something into a creature. In those cases it makes a lot more sense why you don't want to apply only the type changing part.
Felt like I heard something similar with dependency so looked up those rules (rule 613.8), but apparently from what I can read that seems to be only in the same layer, so wouldn't change anything in the video. Still wanted to mention it :p
Yeah. Dependencies are important if, for example, you play Archetype of Courage and Kwende, Pride of Femeref.
Both are in layer 6, but you don't want to use time stamps since if Archetype entered second, then you would hand out double strike before you handed out first strike.
Because which things Kwende affects are depends on what Archetype does, we always apply Archetype first.
Of course sometimes we get a dependency loop. Humility and Dress Down do this if you have an Opalescence out making them both creatures. Both of them are dependent on the other since they would change the existence of the other's ability. Because you can't break the tie with dependencies, you go back to using timestamps instead.
Thank you for explaining it!
Hope it helps!
This is so great. For the first time, I feel like I understand the layers.
I’m so glad it helped!
Though the layers system works extremely well for almost all cases, the fact that there are edge cases that cause such large amounts of confusion but have seemingly universally agreed upon intuitive results that the layer system doesn't result in makes me think there does exist a better solution for the resolution of these effects that would lead to more intuitive resolutions more of the time. I imagine it's a similar situation to that of pre and post-stack MTG, but I'm certainly not smart enough to create this replacement, but I hope that somebody does find it some day!
I believe that no matter what you do to change the system there will be card interactions that can find a way to break or make that system unintuitive too
@@keepingitcasualmtgpossibly, but I feel that WOTC should still try and do something. There's no (intuitive) reason that, "you lose all abilities" should just not work sometimes.
@@BarbeqdBrwniez the thing is
If you change the system, you will end with more broken stuff.
@@Karonar maybe, maybe not, but if we never try to think of better ways we will NEVER have fewer broken things.
@BarbeqdBrwniez the team that makes the rules are extremely exhaustive in their approach, so the current result is not from lack of trying on wizard's part. Unfortunately in life and logic, you will always have issues like the halting problem. But that fact shouldn't stop you from trying!
Thats the kind of lesson we all want to have at school XD
😆😆
we need the layer system on a shirt ASAP - so we can rep ur merch and remember the layers stack easier
Haha that is an interesting idea
@@keepingitcasualmtg im a good idea machine sometime, if you want i can rough up a design in illustrator for you send it over
I think the Professor should have his tenure revoked. We have a new master of the Magic rule set.
Professor should be the Dean
This was a great description, and i think that youre right that layers work for most interactions. I still feel that there must be a way to handle this in a way that doesnt result in some rather wild edge cases like Kudo here.
I don't know. I can't think of any way to completely overhaul the system without breaking things and if we start making special exceptions for individual specific cards or interactions, then we lose a lot of consistently and start requiring people to memorize which things don't follow the normal system.
@@seandun7083 same. No idea how it could be done, but it just feels like there should be some way. Idk, I just hope WOTC is trying is all.
The only way I can think of that doesn't require a complete overhaul is an additional rule that says any static ability that applies in multiple layers is actually several separate static abilities that can all be on or off independently. Kudo would still make everything a bear but wouldn't make everything 2/2s and I'm having trouble coming up with anything that this new rule would break too badly.
@@fafdsfr Ambush Commander turns things into creatures on layer 4 but sets their p/t on layer 7. If lost halfway through, you have creatures with no defined p/t.
The layers are like some old lovecraftian god lol.
One day you'll stroll around without a care in the world, having fun playing magic.
Then something confusing will happen, you'll start to gain the insight that there might be something that exist beyond it all.
An eldritch truth.
The layers are this eldritch god, you were never aware of its existence before.
But now, it simply IS.
Spooooky.
but yea the layers are confusing when you start messing with them like Kudo and dress down. but honnestly i might have had to make sens of them twice in the last 2 years ive been playing magic.They dont need fixing, just to be understood better. Like Ashaya and Blood moon... ok lets not get into that one... XD
Before the Eldrazi there were The Layers
Pretty much yes 😂
one layer ruling i never see talked about is the altar of the pantheon losing its abilities will still add 1 to all your devotions since devotions calculated just after layer 3 lol
Yeah. It has a secret layer 3.5 since you want it to apply after Volrath's Shapeshifter but before the Gods check devotion for their type changing abilities.
This was incredibly informative.
Glad it helped!
@@keepingitcasualmtg thanks for making it!
I wish yugioh had something like this instead.of head judges deep diving a japanese forum to figure out how these things apply ona card by card basis.
Most of the times I get how the layers work, but sometimes I struggle with effects that do the same thing at the same time. For example:
Life and limb makes saprolings and forests both green saprolings and forests in addition to their other types.
Ambush commander makes forests elfs that are still land, but doesn’t say “in addition to their other type”
With both in play, are they just elf forests? Or also saprolings?
And if I then use Jolrael, empress of beasts to turn all lands into 3/3 creatures until end of turn.
Do they lose the green color? Or does it keep the color because it was already set?
(Yes, I’m building a land animation deck 😂)
For things that happen on the same layers that try to change the same object first we go off of dependencies. (Do one of the effects depend on the results of the other to apply itself?) In this case what Forests Ambush Commander makes into elves depends on what Life and Limb makes into Forests. So we apply Life and Limb's ability first making all Forest into Saprolings and all Saprolings into Forests, which then Ambush Commander can apply making them all Land Creature- Forest Elves and no other types.
@@keepingitcasualmtg ah, i see :) so now I have saproling tokens with a serious identity crisis 😄
Thanks!
Distracted by cat. Still don’t know how layers work
Foiled by the kitties
But in all seriousness, your statement of “it started to apply” makes a lot of sense. It’s like a spell that has to be completed before it can be interacted with (sans Panglacial worm).
@@Zip_yermouth thats an interesting way to go about thinking about it and I think it could be a good way to think about it. Just be careful cause replacement effect do make changes as spells resolve where with layers only other other layers interactions would be able to change it
@@keepingitcasualmtg So you’re saying, most of the time it works but when special cases emerge it doesn’t? 😜
@@Zip_yermouth haha I suppose that’s right
It's literally just the grandfather clause which just says if I'm doing something before something says I can't then I'm still allowed to do it. The point at the end is the main point. There will always be times where strange things will happen within the layers. You can't switch up the layers to fix this so the only option is like you said. Make the layers work for the majority since it can't work intuitively all the time
Edit: it's on the players to learn how to distinguish an ability with two parts vs two separate abilities on the same card
Grandfather clause is a good way to put it
Given the mass difficult that the general public seems to have with apply order of operations (PEMDAS) on social media, I suppose Magic The Gathering will ever reside on the far side of the aisle with the folks who secretly get a bit of a kick when solving a difficult mathematical puzzle (even if they don’t show it aloud).
Haha yeah PEMDAS is a great example
Insta-saved. I am going to be linking this video SO MUCH.
Glad it helped!
What a great explanation! Thanks a lot man
Thank you! Glad it helped
I'm a Jodah player. I start with Guildpact Leyline on board. You cast Blood Moon.
I cry. This is how layers work.
Well I hope you run some basics 😆
Great explanation! 🔝 The layer system is a fix, what that's realy fuuuued are the card designing teams 😜
😆😆 Well don’t grab your pitchforks for the design team either cause I like that they experiment a with things
Wonder if someone could confirm or correct my thinking of this scenario:
Omo is on the field with an "everything counter" on herself. She therefore makes herself ever creature type with her 3rd ability.
Opponent plays a Sluge Monster and puts a slime counter on Omo. It's ability "Non-Horror creatures with slime counters on them lose all abilities and have base power and toughness of 2/2."
Since Omo is a Horror, does that protect her from both the ability removal and 2/2 stat change since type changing effects happen first through the layers?
Omo's ability is a type changing effect on layer 4. Sludge Monster's effect applies on layer 6 and layer 7b. Since those effects happen later on the layers Omo's effect would apply before her abilities gets removed. It will continue to apply even after they're removed
@@keepingitcasualmtgthe more important part they mentioned is that Omo makes itself a horror, meaning it is immune to the effects of sliming as well.
They should take more care in making card design make more upfront sense with the layer system. If Kudo had the bear setting and 2/2 setting as separate abilities, it wouldn't be perfect, but it would be much better.
I think that would help with making the game more intuitive, but I also do like that they like to experiment and push the envelope at times.
I didn't realize this was a problem for players 😅 at least the players in my area seems to understand this better lol i appreciate this video so much tho. Thanks. You're definitely right about fixing the understanding of it. Big ups for such a video
There's some nuances to it that folks might have a hard time picking up
Thank you for having the time and crayons to explain this to me.
I just stumbled onto this and I swear this is like learning the OSI and TCP/IP stack in networking.
Magic I feel has some deep similarities to coding
One interaction I've been having trouble wrapping my head around is The Jolly Balloon Man making copies of something like Crusader of Odric, or when Porcelain Gallery is on the field (both state the creature's power and toughness are equal to number of the creatures you control) but Jolly Balloon Man makes the copy a 1/1 Red Balloon with flying and haste. Would the Odric/Porcelain Gallery effect happen in Layer 7a, followed by the Jolly Balloon Man setting the P/T to 1/1 in layer 7b making the copy just a 1/1? Or would they both apply in Layer 7a resulting in a timestamp ruling, where whichever effect was on the board first would apply?
So Jolly Balloon Man isn't exactly a P/T setting effect on 7 but actually making the base P/T of the creature it's making a 1/1 on layer 1. Crusader of Odric will no longer have an X P/T to define so it's ability won't have anything to apply to.
So we look at it base P/T 1/1, then 7b we set P/T with porcelain gallery to make it equal to creatures you control
Yeah. Here's a ruling from Soul Separator which has a similar ability:
"If the copied creature card has an ability that defines its power and toughness, such as that of Sage of Ancient Lore, the Spirit token will still have base power and toughness 1/1."
Hi, love your videos, they are amazing ! I have a question, how does bello ( the raccoon that turns artifact and enchant into creatures) and kudo works ? I mean you go by time stamp (between kudo and bello) or kudo always applies since it happens in an upper layer ?
For the type changing effects, Kudo will apply after Bello since it is dependent on things being creatures in order for it's effect to apply to them.
For the p/t setting effects, you will go by timestamps. Note that Bello's ability will have a timestamp of when the card entered rather than the start of your turn.
@@seandun7083 thanks !!
When effects try to apply on the same layers if one of those effects don’t depend on the results of the effect of the other effect then we go by timestamp order
I think the only solution really is to completely remove and replace the layer system with something that allows effects to work as they intuitively seem to. Or overhaul it from the ground up at least.
For example, you could staple to the rules an entire library of every static ability in the game that's continuously expanded with each set and includes the ability to add tags to those abilities. Currently, they already basically have tags in the sense there are many many categories of static abilities and the only way to determine which abilities are what is to read the criteria spelled out for the category in the rules, compare that to the ability, and determine whether it applies. Judges are good at this, average players struggle but can be corrected to learn/memorize.
So once you create this library you remove this interpretation step by using tags to indicate what categories of static abilities things belong to, allowing for simple lookups. You can also have tags that list all cards that have these abilities, creating even easier ways of searching it. And you add an additional tag called the layer tag which determines which layer abilities are applied in. The layer system is then made generic, with the current ability categories-layer mapping being a soft recommendation that most cards will continue to follow, but if a card works better in a different layer than recommended it has the flexibility to be put in that layer instead.
This also has the extra benefit of making the layer system more modular as the game progresses. If you suddenly need another layer because you have a new kind of effect that doesn't fit the current structure you don't need to create a whole category and rigidly confirm that everything that fits the criteria for that category works right in that layer, you just know you can put the ones that do fit in there as needed.
The biggest downside to this is that it makes it much harder for people who want to fully understand the rules as there will no longer be a simple way to memorize the categories of abilities, interpret which categories abilities fall into, and then understand from memorization which layers they go into. You basically have to look it up each time or memorize every abnormal layer placement which is a very difficult task. Still, if the system works in making static abilities function intuitively, then you won't really need to make those assumptions.
That last one is a big "if" because this entire overhaul assumes that every ability has a place in the layer system that will allow it to function intuitively with all other abilities. In your example in the video, moving the ability-modifying category entirely caused problems, which is what this is avoiding, but it's entirely possible that one ability alone could have no good position.
I mean, this doesn't really seem like a great solution. It requires so much more work to keep it updated (constant updates for any new card with a static ability compared to the current system which pretty much never needs to be updated) and is pretty much impossible for players to learn.
What, I don't really think people are having trouble determining that Magus of the Moon is a type changing effect or that Dress Down is an ability removing effect. Those are both pretty apparent. They just take issue with what happens when they interact.
I don't think that forcing effects into layers they don't belong in makes any sense either.
In the Dress Down + Magus of the Moon interaction, would you move Dress Down to layer 3 so it always applies before Magus? If so, it now would never apply to things that were turned into creatures, like Vehicles, manlands and Gideon planeswalkers.
Moving Magus to layer 7 now means that the lands can no longer gain abilities either.
You also need to be clear on the difference between static abilities and continuous effects since they aren't the same.
Some continuous effects can be created by a non static ability. Crew abilities create a type changing continuous effect.
Some static abilities don't create continuous effects such Notion Thief's static replacement effect.
@seandun7083
Firstly: my point overall is that layers as a concept may not be a maintainable rules structure to make everything work as it appears it should.
Second: in the hypothetical overhaul there is no "correct" place anymore, just the location(s) that allow the effect to work most intuitively.
Third: using tags, there's no reason to assume they can only have one layer tag. If you decide that you want this ability to catch type-changing abilities and hit cards whose type is changed to be applicable, you could give it both the layer 3 and layer 5 tag and have it be checked twice each pass.
The biggest problem with the overhaul, aside from it being cumbersome to learn and update if you aren't writing an entire application to manage it, is that once you turn the layers into recommendations and start moving things around a bit it's impossible to guarantee you can hit the effects you want to by being in the right layer. If a type changing ability is put into layer 2, suddenly dress down doesn't work, and that could be a problem.
Honestly, the best option for effects that remove all abilities is probably to just include reminder text so players know "all" does not actually mean "all". But I've always felt like the layer system is already an inelegant solution that was at least worth it to maintain intuitive function. But if it fails on even that function, and seems like it's going to fail more and more as the game is made more complicated, I think it genuinely just needs to be replaced entirely, but even overhauled.
@@RedOphiuchus Saying that there isn't a single correct method for determining their order but instead we just go off of what is intuitive isn't that great an idea. What is intuitive varies from player to player in quite a few scenarios.
If we have Dress Down apply on both layer 3 and layer 6 (5 is color changing), then it now applies before effects that turn creatures into non creatures like Swift Reconfiguration meaning that the thing being turned into a vehicle loses all it's previous abilities even though it isn't a creature.
The problem you brought up is probably the biggest problem I have with your suggestion. I feel like a lot of people who have a knee jerk reaction to a single weird corner case example try to fix the system without really understanding the ripple effects of such a change so I appreciate you acknowledging them.
Your reminder text option is a good recommendation, though it's probably hard to phrase it in a way that it clarifies things without making things more confusing for players completely unaware of the layer system.
I should also clarify that Dress Down DOES actually remove Magus's ability, it just does so after it applies. That means that even though non basic lands are mountains, Magus will still get buffed by Muraganda Petroglyphs. That makes it even harder to word it in a way that is accurate, that clarifies things, and that also doesn't require a whole paragraph of text.
I would say "removes all abilities that haven't yet been applied", but that doesn't really mean the right thing if you aren't already aware of what it means for layers to apply effects.
I think that layers do actually lead to the intuitive answer the vast majority of the time, and some of the more complicated aspects (like dependencies) actually help that to happen more often, but it's really easy for players to not realize that since you generally only need to think of layers, or even realize they exist, when they do something weird.
Given the size of magic though, I really don't think it's possible for any system to give the intuitive solution every time. I don't think a couple fringe cases are really enough to throw the whole thing out without a replacement that does at least as well.
It's hard to say how they will fair in the future. They have done a pretty damn good job of handling everything that's been thrown at them so far (on a side note, I don't actually know when they were first added. I think it was after the big 6th edition rules change and they have definitely been around for at least a decade, but between the l those points I'm not sure), but there are definitely some cards and mechanics in recent years that stretch them a little. Mutate and Exchange of Words come to mind. Those so still work though.
This is an incredibly huge undertaking that I don’t think is realistic to do. The rules that currently exists works for every card that has been created so far. Overhauling that entire system to work for new cards and ALSO work for old cards (especially weird old wording).
It also sounds like the overhaul you’re suggesting is how Yugioh works which that system has its own host of issues
This dude should work for wizards
Haha maybe
It always bothered me that MtG had *so many* continuous effects. I get it's because discreet timing effects don't have visual reminders, which auras function as, but after playing games where changes to the board state aren't ongoing and instead discreet points in time it's just so much more intuitive.
I think it can be intuitive, but it could lead to more tracking which can lead to a lot of confusion. I think there probably isn't a completely perfect system, but I haven't explored many card games beyond magic
Keep up the good content!
Can you make a video about good mnemonics for remembering the layers or other rules? Like APNAP etc
He did make a short about that, but it's a bit hard. For reference, the layers are:
1. Copy effects
2. Control effects
3. Text changing effects
4. Type changing effects
5. Color changing effects
6. Ability adding and removing effects
7. Power and toughness altering effects:
--7a. Characteristic defining
--7b. Setting base power and toughness
--7c. Adding or subtracting per and toughness
--7d. Swapping power and toughness
dang it. ok if true then true. SO IF Kudo used 2 different lines of text to describe what it did. other creatures bears. other creatures 2/2. Then a dress down is played, then creatures would be bears but not 2/2. But because of the way the card is written 1 part of the sentence is true so everything in that sentence is true.
Yes. Another reason for that rule to exist is that things can break when your only apply half of an ability that was designed around the entire things being applied, so it's better to either apply all of it or none of it.
You don't want Ambush Commander + Dress Down to give you a bunch of creatures, but not set their p/t.
That's exactly right!
So what layer does aminatou, the veil piercer's second ability work on, the "each enchantment has miracle etc"?
Layer 6 with changing abilities
At what point do timestamps apply? I'm thinking Kudo and Humility. Would Humility not apply for the Kudo player?
Timestamps apply when 2 effects happen in the same layer and don't involve dependencies.
Kudo has an effect with both a L4 type changing effect (turning stuff into bears), and a L7 p/t altering effect (turning stuff into 2/2s).
Humility has both a L6 ability removing effect, and a L7 p/t altering effect (turning stuff into 1/1s).
In layer 4 we turn stuff into bears.
In layer 6 we remove abilities.
There is a special rule that says that if an ability has been removed after part of it has been applied, you apply the rest anyways (613.6).
In layer 7, we have 2 effects since Kudo still applies. Here, we will use timestamps to order them. Whichever entered first sets p/t to one value, then the later one sets p/t to the other value. Note that Kudo doesn't hit himself so he will always end up a 1/1 even if other things are 2/2.
I believe 613.6 is in place to stop things from turning stuff into creatures (L4) without setting their p/t (L7).
613.6: If an effect should be applied in different layers and/or sublayers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate ones. If an effect starts to apply in one layer and/or sublayer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer and/or sublayer, even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process.
So if kudo is elked by oko are creatures still 2/2 bears? or does the oko ability work diferent than dress down?
Oko's ability consists of 4 separate effects.
-"becomes a ... Elk Creature" applies on layer 4.
-"becomes green" applies in layer 5.
- "loses all abilities" applies in layer 6.
-"with base power and toughness 3/3" applies in layer 7b.
Of course only the layer 6 effect interacts with Kudo's ability.
Kudo has both a layer 4 effect (are bears in addition to their other types) and a layer 7b effect (have base power and toughness 2/2.
So in layer 4, Kudo turns things into bears. In layer 5 Kudo becomes Green. In layer 6 Kudo loses abilities. In layer 7, Kudo becomes 3/3. Also in layer 7, we still apply the other half of Kudo's ability since the first half applied before it was removed.
So the outcome will be the same.
One card that will be different is Song of the Dryads. It removes abilities on layer 4 by using a type changing effect to turn it's target into a forest, similar to how Blood Moon works.
Because of that, it applies on the same layer as Kudo's first ability. Since it changes the existence of Kudo's ability, Kudo's ability will be depent on it and therefore will be applied second, at which point it will be removed so won't apply.
Note the difference between removing abilities using a type changing effect and removing abilities in an ability that also includes a separate type changing effect.
Ohh wait a minute, does that mean that if dress down changed it's wording from, "Creatures lose all abilities" to "Creatures lose all ability text" (Or whatever the text box is technically defined as) Then it would actually turn off Kudo's and others abilities since they would no longer have the ability before the type change applies?
If it removes text then yes. Since text applies before type, but it would only remove words printed on the card itself. Any abilities that were added to Kudo would not be affected. For example if we played Sure Strike on Kudo, it would retain the first strike
@@keepingitcasualmtg Ohhhhh fascinating that is a neat extra usecase there. Cool ^.^
My head hurts and that is true.
Layers are fine until you hit magus of the moon and the like that keep all abilities even when they get elked or imprisoned in the moon. And im always unsure which cards apply in that category. I know we have blood moon, dryad of ilysian grove, mycosynth lattice, kudos, urborg, yavimaya, sudden spoiling and probably a lot more. But then theres other cards that also statically give abilities to others that i don't think apply like that such as nadu, sorin vengefull bloodlord and tazri stalwort survivor (tell me if im wrong about those😅). The way i understand it, if a card statically change attributes they stay. But if they just add attributes, they don't
Look at the list of layers on his whiteboard.
Kenrith's Transformation and Imprisoned in the Moon both remove abilities in layer 6 (ability adding and removing).
Effects that change a thing's type, super type, or subtype (Magus of the Moon, Mycosynth Lattice, Kudo, Urborg and Yavimaya) will all still apply after an effect says they "lose all abilities" since those are handled earlier, in layer 4 (type changing).
Effects that grant an ability, like the 3 you listed, are also in layer 6. If you remove abilities from a card they granted them to, then since they are in the same layer, you use timestamps.
If you play the card that removes all abilities first, then play the card that grants an ability, the thing in question will only have the ability you granted it. If you instead grant the ability then remove it, it won't have any abilities.
If instead we remove the ability of only the card that is granting abilities, then we have 2 effects, in the same layer, where one depends on the other for either which things it effects, or what it does to them. Because of that, the one that is dependent on the other is applied last, meaning we remove abilities first.
So stupid. "this thing shouldn't have effects anymore but it does" who the hell came up with that, you can't tell me it's intuitive.
@@pascalsimioli6777 yes it is unintuitive, but it's also the result of a design that does do the intuitive things the majority of the time, does things consistently when more and always gives a single answer.
We need to apply type changing effects before ability removing effects so that things that turn stuff into creatures (the card Living Lands, the crew ability on vehicles, etc) will turn them into creatures before we decide what something like Dress Down, which only affects creatures, will apply to. Same thing for stuff like Swift Reconfiguration which makes things no longer creatures.
We can't reverse the effect of abilities that have already been applied without running into loops with cards that turn themselves into creatures like the interaction between Dress Down and Weatherlight Compleated that was mentioned in the video.
As a sidenote, the abilities of the cards are still removed, they just continue to apply since they already were applied. A Weatherlight Compleated will get a buff from Muraganda Petroglyphs while Dress Down is out. You can think of it being similar to how killing a creature in response to one of it's activated or triggered abilities won't remove the ability from the stack.
@@pascalsimioli6777 the same people that came up with "Lord of Atlantis (a card that gives Merfolks Islandwalk) should give Changelings (creatures with every type, including Merfolk) Islandwalk"
This interaction works this way for the exact same reason that Lord of Atlantis gives Changelings Islandwalk.
WotC is fully aware that it is unintuitive, but fixing it will fix like 10 interactions and break 100's of different ones
I’ve always found that removing an ability should just apply on an earlier layer say 3 so it’s after copies and control but before all the static ability shenanigans so that cards that say creatures lose abilities work as templated. Can be super confusing for even veteran players who don’t have an eidetic memory to remember all the layers and how to apply them. Let alone from the perspective of the new player since how am I going to explain to them without sounding like I’m cheating that using darksteel mutation on my Bello the bard deck doesn’t stop them from being elementals
The problem with that is that it needs to apply after type changing effects otherwise Dress Down won't take away abilities from stuff like Crewed vehicles.
Ability adding also needs to be after color changing so that Darkest Hour + Corrosive Mentor works as expected.
We want to have ability adding and removing on the same layer so that they are decided by dependencies and timestamps (stuff like Mist Dragon also requires it).
The main point is that no matter where you move it, it will break something else. I believe this way breaks less things but still has an issue of something being unintuitive. It’s difficult to make it work perfect
@@keepingitcasualmtg I can agree with this point the current system although not perfect is still a good system that works to resolve irregularities in the game but fringe cases such as these tend to slip through the cracks
So, if we remove abilities in layer 3, one of 2 things will happen depending on how you do it.
-You only remove abilities in layer 3, and keep adding abilities in the current layer: If I attach Darksteel Plate to a creature, and you activate Shadowspear's activated ability, my creature is still indestructible. If you cast Exterminatus, it is still indestructible (although it stops immediately after Exterminatus destroys the Plate). If you play Dress Down, it is still indestructible. There is no way to remove that Indestructible without removing the Plate.
-You also move adding abilities to layer 3, to prevent exactly what I described above: Lord of Atlantis will give Changelings +1/+1, but not Islandwalk.
i’d love an example of when removing an ability after it’s partly resolved would break the game and not just make rulings different, i’ve done some digging and haven’t found any yet (i feel like there’s maybe something with artificial evolution, faerie artisan, humility, and dress down, but i couldn’t crack it)
i think the weatherlight compleated thing is what i was looking for, maybe i should finish the video before commenting
watching the video explains the video
🤭🤭
Ambush Commander + Dress Down is one situation. It leads to creatures without a defined p/t if you remove it halfway.
Can you give me the explanation with Bello and Darksteel mutation, please? Because I understood the video, but Bello and DsM effects are both abilities, no? What is the explanation about DsM not working on Bello? Just because both happen at the same time? I don't buy that xD Or is it? jajajajaja
(The layer system would be much simpler by only doing the Last Effect is the one tacking effect if the effect overlap, imo. Surely it would break some things without an study, but is easier to understand).
Darksteel Mutation has multiple parts to it's ability which each apply on different layers.
Layer 4 (type changing) "... Is an insect artifact creature... And it loses an other ... Card types and creature types"
Layer 6 (ability adding/removing) "with indestructible... it loses all other abilities"
Layer 7 (p/t altering) "with base power and toughness 0/1"
Bello also has parts of it's abilities apply in separate layers.
Layer 4 (type changing) "... Is a ... elemental creature in addition to it's other types"
Layer 6 (ability adding/removing) "has indestructible, haste, and 'whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, draw a card"
Layer 7 (p/t altering) "is a 4/4"
We apply each effect on the appropriate layer.
Layer 4: these 2 aren't dependent on each other, so we use timestamps. In this case, the order doesn't matter. Either way, Bello is now an insect artifact creature and your stuff with mv 4 or more is now a elemental creature.
Notice how we have now applied part of Bello's ability. That means if we later remove it, we will still apply the rest (rule 613.6). I believe this is in place so that in situations like this ability, you won't turn things into creatures without setting their power and toughness.
Layer 6: because of 613.6, these also aren't dependent on each other, so we will apply these in timestamp order. Because we have already started to apply Bello's ability, the order here doesn't matter either. Your stuff will gain indestructible, haste, and the curiosity ability, then Bello will lose it's abilities.
Layer 7: in timestamp order Bello becomes a 0/1 and all the animated things become 4/4s.
613.6: If an effect should be applied in different layers and/or sublayers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate ones. If an effect starts to apply in one layer and/or sublayer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer and/or sublayer, even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process.
TLDR, while the type changing effects happen at the same time, DSM's ability removing effect (L6) happens after Bello's type changing effect (L4) so the ability has already started to apply meaning it fully applies.
Just checking my understanding.
What I get from this video is that Kudo is basically immune to dress down because of layers?
When do we check layers? Is it like a constant thing like state-base actions? Like, I get that there is an order for the layers, but I'm stll not sure I understand the timing around them or WHAT they are exactly.
They’re pretty much always being checked. I believe they’re pretty much checked before we even check state-based actions but we don’t really stop the game and check it. It’s something that’s always being checked
State Based Actions are checked right before a player gets priority, but Layers are updated constantly and immediately, including during the resolution of a spell or ability.
It can be handy to think of them as being checked whenever something wants to know the characteristics of an object. Whenever that happens, the game builds them back up from scratch. The order of the layers is the order the characteristics are modified in.
0. Start with the printed characteristics of the card.
1. Apply any copy effects.
2. Apply control changing effects.
3. Apply text changing effects.
4. Apply type changing effects.
5. Apply color changing effects.
6. Apply ability adding/removing effects.
7. Apply effects that change power and toughness.
Once you have applied each of those effects in that order, you now know what the characteristics of that object are.
613.5: The application of continuous effects as described by the layer system is continually and automatically performed by the game. All resulting changes to an object's characteristics are instantaneous.
So i had a question about my volrath deck. If the volrath the shapestealer can become a copy of a creature and it's one of the enduring enchantment creatures and that he becomes a copy of a due to enduring circle coming back as a regular enchantment would volrath come back as just a enchantment with his abilities and if so would it be temporary since it says he becomes a copy of a target creature with a counter until your next turn
So with the Kudo/Dress Down situation, everything would end up as an ability-less 2/2 bear?
Most likely unless there are other effects that would apply before dress down's effect.
Yeah. Importantly, despite it already having applied, Kudo's ability is still removed, but not reversed. He will benefit from a Muraganda Petroglyphs.
How do Kudo and Maha, it’s feathers night interact? I assume everything becomes a 2/1 bear but why
Both of the effects that set base power and toughness apply on the same layer/sublayer which is 7b.
Because of this, we use timestamps to order them.
If Kudo enters first, things will be 2/2s and then 2/1s, but if Maha enters first, they will be */1s, then 2/2s.
@@seandun7083 ok thanks!! I’m newer to mtg so this sort of thing is super helpful thanks
7 layers, just like Taco Bells discontinued 7 layer burrito.
I love taco bell
the part that bugs me about the layer system isn't really the main mechanics of it. it's when it intersects with timestamps and makes headaches, and the fact that all abilities fall under the same umbrella in the same category. I'd love to see you do a takedown of "layer system but after each step there's a tiny step about the abilities relating to that step" like having type step and then type abilities step.
like there's probably a reason why it isn't like that but I don't know it yet and it's gonna keep bugging me until I know why
It sounds like it'd be adding more steps to an already complicated concept
There are actually a couple ways to remove abilities on other layers, they just aren't phrased as ability removing effects.
Copy effects apply in layer 1 and remove all the printed abilities of the card since they are turning it into something else.
Volrath's Shapeshifter and Exchange of Words both do similar things via text changing effects on layer 2.
Blood Moon and other effects like Song of the Dryads, which set a card to have a single basic land type will also remove all abilities through that type changing effect on layer 4.
That hypothetical of "Copies" being *anything under Layer 1* legit counts as a jumpscare.
Copying requires two objects (the copier & the copied) that have a relationship (the copy copies the copied). Before you can muddle abt w/ any attributes of an object (& magic lets you muddle w/ just abt any of those attributes), you need to establish what an object *is* first. & at their base level, copies are defined by their relationship to their copied. Copy effects are the only domain of layers where the effect determines what an object *is* rather than what an object *is like*. If you apply effects that modify what attributes an object has before what a copy is copying, then the copy won't have the changed attributes. & that's obviously wrong & counter-intuitive.
I also really like the example using lord effects bc lord effects were exactly what made layers click for me as a player. Before you can grant bonuses or abilities to, say, white Vampires you control, you need to establish what is or is not a white Vampire you control. & magic has so many different variants on lord effects (Slivers that affect all Slivers regardless of controlling player; effects that boost all creatures you control of a single type or a single color; lords that change the type &/or color of specific permanents) that they make for a handy, intuitive guide for why the layers are set up like they are.
Wait, doesn't this "layer window" thing go against the Humility/Opalescence example that's always used? I keep seeing it written that timestamps apply to that combo, but shouldn't it be Opalescence wins because it starts earlier in the layer stack?
Both Humility and Opalescence have an ability with effects that apply in 2 separate layers.
Humility has:
-"Creatures lose all abilities", which is in layer 6 (ability adding/removing)
-"and have base power and toughness 1/1", which is in layer 7b (setting power and toughness)
Opalescence has:
-"non-aura Enchantments are creatures in addition to their other types", which is in layer 4 (type setting)
-"with power and toughness equal to their mana value", which is in layer 7b (setting power and toughness)
So,
On layer 4 enchantments become creatures
On layer 6 creatures lose abilities
On layer 7b, we have 2 effects so in timestamp order they either become MV/MV and then 1/1, or 1/1 then MV/MV.
TLDR, part of their effects uses layers, but part is on the same layer so it uses timestamps.
@@seandun7083 wonderful, thanks for that.
When would the order of layer 1a and 1b would matter.
And the layers should be:
Control
Characteristic (name, color, type, cmc etc.)
Define
Swap out (set to)
Add or remove
Text (anything in the textbox)
Define
Swap out (change)
Add or remove
P/T
Define
Swap out (set to)
Add or remove (subtract)
Flip
Copy effects will be handled during the define sublayers.
1a applies copy effects then 1b applies face down effects. So if a facedown card would become a copy of something else it would still be facedown, but if we turn it face up it will be the face of whatever it copied.
I think there would be issues with control and copies with this ordering, but it looks like an interesting concept.
What if something were to make something blue and something gave flying to all blue creatures how would that be handled? Timestamp? Would colors be applied first?
Thanks for explaining that interaction, though now I feel that it shouldn't be a sublayer and should just use timestamps. Since they are separate sublayers creatures mutated under facedown cards should have just been added facedown, their abilities are cancelled anyways since they entire creature is "facedown" (with some faceup cards).
My proposed version of layers handles the cardface then the textbox then the P/T box, so it would be the same as the actual layers in the example you provided. I assume you were thinking more along the lines of song of the dryads and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in which case it would work on dependencies.
Sorry to reply to your post twice but I don't see how copiable characteristics and change of control interact? It feels like control can be something outside of the layers like ownership.
@@brandontrefethen9971You want copy to be before control so that Clever Impersonator is made a copy of Mind Control before control effects are applied.
You want Volrath's Shapeshifter to look at the top card of it's *controller's* graveyard after control effects are applied. (That's actually why they errataed that to be a text changing ability rather than a copy ability. If it was a copy ability it would ignore control effects when deciding who "you" was)
Type changing and color changing being before text changing breaks all the Trait Doctoring type effects since they would happen after the effects they are trying to alter.
I am curious, are there any specific problems you are trying to fix with this order? I don't think it changes the Magus of the Moon+ Dress Down interaction since type changing is still before text stuff (which I assume includes ability removing here).
i do think negation effects should have its own layer that's high on the pole. i hate the idea of something saying a cards ability is negated or it loses the ability, but the ability still applies.
It would be tough to do it otherwise as then you'd have the reverse happen. Things that you would want to have gain abilities might not because of the order. I know there was also a suggestion of splitting the two, but of course there's unintuitive things with that as well. Bottom line is in most orderings there will be something that wouldn't make sense. I think they chose this because it would be less frequent.
@@keepingitcasualmtg i feel like it would be a simple fix. either add a clause that says "if a continuous effect would be negated or lost by this effect once, it applies until this permanent leaves the field or the effect is done".
i understand it could cause those stupid loops like with the weatherlight example, but i think some wording changes could address it.
@@ninjaman0003 even amendments like that can cause a whole host of other issues to spring up. It’s really hard to realize how many interactions there are in magic and how many cards and interactions can make the game more of a mess. As robust as the rules are it’s also quite delicate
@@keepingitcasualmtg maybe i'm not recognizing any possible interaction issues right away. any ideas what this kind of clause could mess up?
@@ninjaman0003Those loops are the main issue.
There's also the problem that if you crew a vehicle with Dress Down out, it loses abilities then continues to have lost them after the crew wears off.
We lose the current intended mechanic of how "loses abilities" isn't the same as "can't gain abilities". Mist Dragon for example breaks.
You would need to word the fix pretty carefully as well to avoid a host of other other issues that I'm leaving out when just addressing the intention.
Also, keep in mind that the ability is still lost in the current system, it just managed to do its job beforehand. That means a Magus of the Moon would get +2/+2 from Muraganda Petroglyphs while you have Dress Down out.
What would happen if there was just an extra ability layer thrown in on the top. Im spitballing here
Throwing it in after layer 7 doesn't actually change things since both would be after Mugus has started to apply and encounter the same issues.
Throwing it in before layer 1 means that it would cause Archetype of Endurance to give itself Hexproof even when enchanted with Swift Reconfiguration.
Having 2 ability layers would also mean stuff that grants abilities that stack, like the exalted given by Sublime Archangel, would apply twice.
Can you make a video explaining timestamps and when they matter? Had this come up in a game with Sturmgeist and the Archon that gives everything base P/T of 3/3.
When ordering continuous effects, there are 3 systems that are used.
Layers are the first one. If your effects are in different layers/sub layers, then you will apply them in that order.
Dependencies are the second one. If 2 effects are in the same layer/sub layer and one changes the existence of the other, changes the text of another, or changes which objects the other affects, then you apply that one first since the other is "dependent on it".
Timestamps is the third one. If 2 effects are in the same layer/sub layer, and either neither of them are dependent on the other or both of them are, you will use timestamps to resolve it (whichever has the earlier timestamp applies first).
Effects created by the resolution of a spell or ability get a timestamp when it resolves. Effects from a static ability get a timestamp when their source enters the battlefield. Certain things will give an object a new timestamp such as equipping an equipment, or flipping a morph face up.
I will actually add that that situation doesn't involve time stamps. Sturmgeist has a characteristic defining ability (layer 7a) and Harmonious Archon has a power and toughness setting ability (layer 7b), so the geist always applies before archon regardless of which order they enter in.
@@seandun7083 Ah, thank you. I didn't catch that you mentioned sub-layers were a thing.
@@shrouded8797 yeah. 7 specifically is broken up into:
A: characteristic defining ("this creature's p/t are equal to _/_" or "create a _/_ creature token")
B: p/t setting (target creature's base power and toughness are _/_" or "becomes a creature with power and toughness _/_"
C: p/t increasing and decreasing (+1/+1 counters or "target creature gets +_/-_ until end of turn")
D: p/t swapping ("swap target creature's power and toughness until end of turn")
I think layer 1 is the only other one with sub layers and they don't come up much.
Okay I still have questions though. So Kudo's ability gets to resolve after you play dress down, but then after the layers have resolved wouldn't Kudo's ability no longer exist? How I'm gathering how this interaction would go: kudo on field, dress down played, kudo changes all creature type to bear, abilities removed from dress down, p/t changed to 2/2 to complete the true=true statement, kudo no longer has ability and all changes to creature type and p/t no longer apply. If this isnt the case then at what point does Kudo's ability no longer apply? If he leaves the field does the changes made to the creatures on the board still remain and only new creatures are unaffected? And what about the interaction between Kudo and imprisoned in the moon? I'm just trying to understand basically at what point would his ability end if his ability is removed from play. I understand the way in which the checks go between the layers with static abilities but at some point the remove abilities portion of dress down has to still apply to Kudo as he is not excluded from the verbiage on the cards so to me (and I'm sure many other people) his ability would have to end and stop applying at some point in this interaction.
Layers are constantly being recalculated, so every time they are you apply it in that same way if
Layer 4: Other creatures become bears
Layer 6: Creatures loses abilities
Layer 7b: Other creatures become 2/2 (since this ability already began to apply earlier)
Note that at the end, Kudo wouldn't have abilities so Muraganda Petroglyphs would apply to him. It's just that his first ability has already started being applied so removing it won't stop it.
It's like if I paint your wall, then you take away my paint brushes. Doing so won't remove the paint that has already been applied.
Once Kudo leaves the battlefield, you immediately apply layers again and just see:
Layer 6: Creatures lose all abilities
As to why they designed the rules to look like this, I like to look at the interaction between Dress Down and Gideon Blackblade. He has an ability that basically says "as long as it's your turn, Gideon is a 4/4 creature".
Under the current system, here's what the layers look like:
Layer 4: Gideon becomes a creature
Layer 6: Creatures (including Gideon) lose all abilities
Layer 7b: Gideon becomes a 4/4 (since this ability started to apply already)
We want to apply his type changing effect before Dress Down's ability removing effect since Dress Down affects all creatures and type changing effects could change what things are creatures.
We don't want to reverse abilities that have already been applied once they are lost since then Gideon would not be a creature meaning he's not affected by Dress Down, meaning he gets his ability back, meaning he is a creature again... Creating a infinite loop.
We want the second half of an ability to still apply even if it's removed between the first and second halves since some abilities are weird if you only apply half of their effects. Gideon would become a creature, but wouldn't have a power and toughness.
As to how you could stop Kudo from applying, Imprisoned in the Moon wouldn't work since it removes abilities via an ability removing effect same as Dress Down.
Song of the Dryads would work since it removes abilities via a type changing effect which happens on layer 4 in the same way Blood Moon removes abilities. Since it applies on the same layer that Kudo starts to apply, it can remove his abilities before they apply.
Metamorphic Alteration also works since it removes them via a Layer 1 copy effect meaning Kudo becomes a copy of another creature and gets all his abilities overwritten before any can apply.
Hope that helped.
@@seandun7083so I reached out in a subreddit thread about IITM and Kudo interaction and after a bunch of back and forth I actually managed to get a visualisation that helps explain it better, in this video it's explained as a ball dropping through the layers so the part where I was getting hung up is that once it finished passing through layer 7 it should start the cycle over again. So example: Kudo and IITM resolve layer 4 changing creature types, IITM resolves layer 6 removing abilities, rule 613.6 states that kudos ability must finish resolving so Kudos p/t change resolves in layer 7, Layers start again, layer 4 hits and Kudo no longer has abilities since IITM still resolves and nothing officially states that it doesn't so when Layer 4 starts again only IITM has an ability in play and resolves as normal. The better way to be looking at it is instead of a ball dropping through the layers infinitely it's an infinite number of the 7 layers next to each other with a ball dropping through them simultaneously, is it still bullshit to me? Yes. Does it make more sense to me to look at it this way to explain how Kudo somehow manages to keep his ability? A softer yes but still a yes none the less
@@nicholassutphin6542 yeah. The big thing is that layers only go one way. You don't go through again after you remove the abilities.
They are constantly reapplied so that updates happen instantaneously, but when that happens, you start from the beginning meaning Kudo will have his ability again until he loses it on layer 6.
If nothing changes, then each time you go through, you should get the same answer.
I get that it is pretty unintuitive and it's definitely a bit hard to explain well.
this video just explains why the layer system is broken. with the current system, I can have a card ON THE FIELD that stops the use of all other abilities of creatures (layer6) and my opponent can play a creature that turns all basic lands to forests (layer 4). although mine was on the field first, all lands are now forests because of the ability of the new card being higher on the layers making mine pointless. the issue it has is, priority. what's on the field should take priority over the new effects.
If that was the case, playing Dress Down would do absolutely nothing to the abilities of cards already out...
@@seandun7083 that is the case for my example. It affects abilities (layer 6) so anything layer 4 happens regardless. If you have that on the field and I play Magus of the moon, (a creature with the ability to turn all nonbasic lands I to mountains) all non basic land becomes mountains because that happened on layer 4 'type changes'.
@@youropinionisinspired9954 the way it currently works, only abilities that have effects on layers before 6 still apply.
Leonin Abunas will stop granting your artifacts hexproof since it is on the same layer and therefore goes second due to dependencies.
Benalish Marshal will no longer give +1/+1 to your board since it happens on layer 7.
Abilities that apply to players or game rules as well as any abilities that aren't continuous effects like activated and triggered abilities won't be lost.
It does quite a bit more than nothing to the stuff currently out.
@@seandun7083 and that's the problem. It makes some cards useless. The card you said is an example. Dress down is layer 6. Even if it is on the field first playing a creature card that has a type change effect still active even though dress down says it can't because it's on a higher layer. That can be solved with priority. Dress down is on the field first so no creatures have abilities regardless of layers. If you played both a creature with a type changer and dress down. Fine, both are on the stack, go through the layers but if dress down was on the field 3 turns ago. The new Magus shouldn't happen.
@@youropinionisinspired9954 again, Dress Down still does quite a lot. It isn't useless.
BTW, Timestamps would be a better term to use than priority. Priority has a separate meaning in Magic which is unrelated to continuous effects, while the timestamp system does exactly what you want, it's just the third system we use to order continuous effects behind Layers and Dependencies rather than the first. If two cards are on the same layer and neither is dependent on the other, the one that applies first is the one with the earliest time stamp. Timestamps are usually generated when their source enters or when the spell, activated ability, or triggered ability that creates then resolves, but there are some other things that can reset them like equipping an equipment or flipping a morph.
The issue I have is that this is that it sacrifices so many interactions that are currently intuitive with out even fully fixing the few niche interactions you have a problem with.
Dress Down goes from reading "creatures lose all abilities except for those that applied on an earlier layer" to "remove all abilities except for those already around". It might be easier to remember, but that only actually changes the Magus of the Moon + Dress Down interaction if Dress Down enters first. If Magus enters first, we get the same result the current rules give. I don't see how that's an improvement.
In order to do this, here's a short list of some interactions which are no longer intuitive:
1. Clone now only benefits from Glorious Anthem or Fervor if they are played after it. Otherwise, they grant the buffs and then are overwritten by the copy effect.
2. If you Mind Control my creature, it still benefits from *my* Glorious Anthem and Fervor that were already out, but not the ones you already had since they have an earlier timestamp than the control effect.
3. If you Trait Doctoring on Blood Moon to change mountain into Island, then it has no effect since Blood Moon has already applied due to having the earlier timestamp.
4. Crewing a vehicle after playing Glorious Anthem or Fervor won't let the vehicle benefit from them since they apply before it becomes a creature. Casting Swift Reconfiguration on your own Archetype of Endurance still lets it give itself Hexproof since it does so before it stops being a creature.
5. Darkest Hour only synergizes with Bad Moon if played first.
6. Corrosive Mentor only synergizes with Darkest Hour if played second.
7. Benalish Marshal still applies if played before Dress Down.
8. Crewing a Vehicle while you have a Maskwood Nexus out doesn't give it any creature types.
9. Every single aura that says "enchanted creature loses all abilities" can no longer take away *any* static abilities that apply continuous effects from the creature since they all will have an earlier timestamp.
Examples 1-7 include an effect from the appropriate layer. 8 includes one that currently utilizes dependencies. 9 is one which I hope shows you why "loses abilities" effects in particular would collapse under your proposed system.
If a legendary creature, like (Rayami, first of the Fallen) is equipped with (Psychic Papers) and then a clone, like (Phantasmal Image) enters the battlefield does the phantasmal immage clone enter with the name Rayami or the chosen name from psychic papers??!! 🤔🤔🤔🤔
Psychic Papers changes the name and is therefore a text changing effect that applies in layer 3. The copiable effects however are the characteristics immediately after applying only layer 1 effects. Therefore, the clone will be called Rayami.
612.8: Some cards create a continuous effect that sets the name of an object. This changes the text that represents the object's name. That object loses any names it had and has only the specified name.
613.2c: After all rules and effects in layer 1 have been applied, the object's characteristics are its copiable values. (See rule 707.2.)
I had no idea layers existed. Let me see if I understand this right. Even though you play dress down... all creatures are still 2/2 bears? If that is how it works, it makes no sense. It seems like it would severely limit your options in a lot of scenarios. Isn't that kind of the point of cards like Dress down? To stop the abilities from happening. But because of layers... if those abilities touch any layer higher than Dress Down... Dress down is useless on them. As a returning player, I find that not very user friendly. If I read a card that says Creatures lose all abilities, then I expect creatures to lose all abilities.
I assume there was issues that brought about the need for the stack, I would be interested in hearing what they were. I've been away from MTG for about 10 years now, so I am still catching up on a lot of the changes.
The stack made it easier to process what was going on. There are still ways to deal with the bear, but they have to operate on layers before the bear could apply
Layers (used for ordering continuous effects that apply to things) are different than the stack (used for ordering resolving spells, activated abilities and triggered abilities), but yes there are reasons for them.
I can also say that while I don't know when exactly layers were added, and I'm sure they have changed over the years, they were around 10 years ago. They just do most of their work behind the scenes so people only need to talk about them when something weird happens.
One interaction that I find helps to illustrate why they designed them in a way that led to the Dress Down + Kudo Interaction is the interaction between Dress Down and Gideon Blackblade.
Gideon is a Planeswalker with a static ability that turns him into a 4/4 creature as long as it's your turn.
You want type changing effects to apply before ability removing effects so that he turns into a creature before Dress Down checks which things are creatures in order to apply it's effect.
You don't want to retroactively reverse the effects of abilities that are later removed since if you did, Gideon losing abilities would make him no longer a creature, meaning he doesn't lose his abilities, meaning he is a creature so he does lose them...
You want to apply the remaining effects of an ability if it is removed after some but not all of them were applied so that Gideon can still set his P/T to 4/4 on layer 7 (p/t changing effects) even though his ability was removed on layer 6 (ability adding/removing effects).
LMK if you have any other questions.
Very well said.
Thank you!
So the fact that Dress Down also removes Kudo's ability as well doesn't matter?
It might not have the intended effect you'd be looking for
If someone whips out that layer map during a game I'm conceding at spilt second speed.
What if they have priority and won't pass it until you listen to their explanation?
gotta make sure to pack that every time I go to the LGS
Nice video, but still feel the layer system/paradigm is a net negative for the game. its unnecessarily confusing when cards doesn't do what the cards text says, e.g, dress down + the bear. Why not just have the last card played has priority.
Confusing, sure. Unnecessarily so is a different story.
Dress Down + Gideon Blackblade might be a good example to explain why both Kudo and Magus of the Moon work the way they do under Dress Down.
He has an ability that says:
"During your turn, Gideon Blackblade is a 4/4 Human Soldier creature with indestructible that's still a planeswalker."
We apply Gideon and other type changing effects first so that we know which permanents are creatures before applying Dress Down which only affects creatures.
We don't retroactively reverse Gideon's ability because then it wouldn't be a creature so it wouldn't have it's abilities removed, so then it would be a creature and would have then removed, and so on. Applying layers in a single direction without going back stops that.
We apply the rest of the ability's effects even though it's turned off halfway through so we don't turn him into a creature without setting his power and toughness.
In my opinion it's a net positive when two interactions that can be interpreted in multiple ways has one definite result. A game like Yugioh has this issue where there are multiple interpretations of a card and either way could be argued and by the end of it there isn't really a solid answer.
@@keepingitcasualmtg played a lot of yugioh, and it has some unclear or dumb rulings for sure. Continuous effects have never really been an issue tho.
Magic USED to use timestamps to solve these interactions instead of layers, as you are suggesting.
It gone done away with because people didn't like that an effect that only affects their board was capable of buffing your opponent's Clones, which in turn didn't benefit from "All black creatures get +1/+1" if they became black creatures.
The layers are there for tournament play and competitive.
I hate hearing complaints from commander players. If you're playing casually, rule it however you want. The rules can be "this way because I said so". Just play what feels right. I'm sure this is happening more than people want to think about anyway.
I mean, the layers are there for a large percentage of interactions, even ones that you encounter in casual games.
I think for play groups rule 0 is fine, but when you go out to the broader world of magic it’s good to have a rule set that everyone is on board with
What?...
I think the layers made perfect sense in all the examples you've given...
Haha you're the first to say that
In order for this to click for me I'd have to play it out in person with an actual interaction. I can understand the logic behind it, but applying it is a whole different matter
Now please explain whether Dress Down resets Nadu’s “twice per turn” count on creatures you control.
ua-cam.com/video/wQYbKnIkyi0/v-deo.htmlsi=Ud0NgAelPqBDWKVY
Tldw: its really complicated and there isn't a set precedent yet.
It does not reset the twice per turn from Nadu. We just got an official answer from Matt Tabak the other day.
I'm not even sure I understand the final result of first example XD. So kudo dress down makes all creature into 2/2 bears with no abilities right?
Yes.
Layer 4: Kudo makes things bears.
Layer 6: Dress Down removes abilities, but doesn't reverse ones that already applied.
Layer 7b: Kudo is allowed to finish it's ability since it already started it, so it makes things 2/2s.
Layer 7c: If you also have Muraganda Petroglyphs, All your creatures including Kudo will get +2/+2 since they don't have abilities (even though Kudo applied his before it was removed).
Is layer the same as the stack?
No. The stack is what keeps track of the spells and abilities that are about to happen and allows you to respond to things.
If you cast Giant Growth in response to a Lightning Bolt to save the creature being targeted, Giant Growth goes above Lightning Bolt on the stack meaning it resolves first.
Layers keep track of the order that we apply continuous effects which change the characteristics of permanents and other things.
If you crew a vehicle and play a Glorious Anthem, we will always apply the effect that is turning the vehicle into a creature before the effect that gives your creatures +1/+1 regardless of the order they happened because type altering effects (layer 4) are applied before power and toughness altering effects (later 7).
@@seandun7083 😵💫 I understand thank you ☺️
Why is it that a +1 counter cancels out a -1 counter (allowing infinite persist etb shenanigans) but when I cycle avian oddity to give a flying counter and then equip colossus hammer, the creature loses flying but retains the counter? There’s nothing on cards that explicitly says a +1 removes a -1. If anything the creatures should retain the -1 counter but the +1 still keeps the P/T basically a net neutral.
Layers is needlessly convoluted and wouldn’t be that way if wotc had just tried to keep card design somewhat leveled but the games been out for so long they ran out of ideas and had to start doing absolutely wacky shitt
Counters cancelling isn't a layers thing, it's a state based action thing.
704.5: The state-based actions are as follows:
704.5q: If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
The Colossus Hammer situation is also a bit different. It's more similar to a +1/+1 counter and a Sicken on the same creature than it is two counters.
It works via timestamps, which are a way to resolve conflicts in the same layer. Since you gave it the flying counter first and then equipped the "it loses flying" equipment, it gains and then loses flying. If you had reversed them, it would lose then gain flying since Hammer doesn't say "can't gain flying". The Hammer Time deck in modern actually abuses this by activating Inkmoth Nexus, equipping, then activating again to give it flying again.
As to why the counter cancelling rule exists, I think the primary reason is that if you had to track both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on the same object, it would be easy to make mistakes and forget which was which. That's also why they try to avoid doing +1/+1 counters if they have another kind of counter as a big mechanic in a set (-1/-1 or oil).
Also, I think you are vastly overestimating how long it took Wizards to start doing Wacky things. Blood Moon, Opalescence and Humility all came out before 6th edition in 1999, which was when the stack was invented. MTG is the first trading card game so they stayed designing cards before anyone knew what "Wacky" was.
I think a long time ago thing did use to retain both, but it was much simpler to track having them cancel out.
Layers are not "needlessly convoluted." They are the way they are so that in 95% of situations, players can apply them intuitively without ever needing to learn how they work, 4.99% of the time you will have to understand the order but it'll still make sense, and then 0.01% of the time there is a niche edge case that doesn't work how anyone would intuitively expect.
All black creatures get +1/+1 (Bad Moon)? Okay, then turning this creature black (Deathlace) gives it +1/+1.
Untapped creatures you control get +0/+2 (Castle)? Okay, then turning an untapped Forest into a creature (Living Lands) gives it +0/+2.
All swamps are 1/1 creatures (Kormus Bell)? Okay, then turning a land into a Swamp (Evil Presence) also makes it a 1/1 creature.
I used these specific examples for 2 reasons: First, every effect listed here is from Limited Edition Alpha, Magic's very first set, so the game had not "been out for so long." Second, if you agreed with every interaction here...Then you can thank layers, because none of these scenarios describe how they worked back in 4th Edition, before layers existed (using 4th Edition rules instead of Alpha rules, because prior to 4th Edition, any player could arbitrarily decide how the game worked by winning a coin flip). You wanted a white creature to get buffed by Bad Moon? Too bad, your Deathlace doesn't make it get buffed. Wanted your Castle to buff your 1/1 Forest creatures? Too bad, they turn into 1/1's. Wanted to make an opponent's Mountain into a 1/1 creature to kill it easier? Nope, it's a Swamp but is still unaffected by Kormus Bell.
"Loses all abilities" at the end of the day isn't intuitive I think because it doesn't do what it says it does intuitively, I do understand how it works, but if you played the Magus of the Moon+Imprisoned in the moon combo to someone to basically make an un-interactable bloodmoon land that didn't really effect itself (Mountain that can only make colorless mana as I understand it) I fully understand why people would be confused and angry. Humility Opalescence is actually easier to explain than Moon nonsense imo. Something like "Loses all oracle text" or "loses all abilities and continuous effects" on the cards that say "Loose all abilities" would be required for the cards to work how people think they work.
tl;dr I don't think its a problem with layers but more the "Loses all abilities" cards not playing as people would expect them to work
Question though is true polymorph a simple copy card or is it an effect which goes and changes one card into another layer by layer
- 'Lose all abilities and continuous effects' is certainly not a solution. Cards don't have continuous effects. Continuous effects are created by static abilities on cards (or by the resolution of a spell, activated ability or triggered ability, e.g. 'creatures you control get +1/+1 until end of turn').
- 'Loses all oracle text' is not supported by the rules, and oracle text actually includes name, type line, p/t and even color and mana cost. 'Loses its text box' is likely what you'd want (text box already being defined as just the abilities, for Exchange of Words). This, being a text-changing effect, would apply in layer 3, and by virtue of dependencies it would also correctly remove its fellow text-changing effects. It would still not affect copy effects (which is probably fine) and control changing effects (which could still be counter-intuitive - Mind Control will still be immune to having its abilities removed).
- True Polymorph is a simple copy effect.
@@Felixr2 another unintuitive thing about "loses it's text box" is that if you change Dress Down to that, it stops affective vehicles but still forces a Klothys to be a creature regardless of devotion.
Effects that add abilities will also always apply later regardless of timestamp.
I think this is an interesting idea of changing certain language and definitions to make more intuitive sense for players. I wonder if there is a way to do that
@@seandun7083 I mean, intuitively I think most people would say that removing Klothys's ability that makes it not be a creature SHOULD mean that it's a creature now.
Your point on it not counteracting effects that add abilities is certainly valid. At that point you'd need 'Loses its text box and all abilities and cannot gain abilities'.
@@Felixr2 Should Klothys lose abilities if it's not currently a creature?
There's also the example in the video about abilities like Wetherlight Compleat or Living Metal (on the Transformers cards) which make something into a creature.
dammn that's confusing, especially with Kudos
If you look at the interaction between Gideon Blackblade and Dress Down, it might help to explain the reasoning behind both the Magus of the Moon example and the Kudo one.
Gideon has a static ability that turns himself into a 4/4 creature as long as it's your turn.
We want to apply type changing effects first so that Gideon becomes a creature before Dress Down applies it's effect to "all creatures".
We don't want to retroactively reverse the application of abilities that already applied. If we did, Gideon would become a creature, meaning it loses abilities, meaning it's no longer a creature, meaning it regains abilities, meaning it becomes a creature, ... forever.
We want to apply the rest of an ability with 2 effects even if the ability is removed in between so that Gideon's ability won't turn him into a creature but fail to set his power and toughness.
Aren't you overcomplicating things? Stormkirk is a continuous effect so it will give FS to any new vampire on the battlefield unless you remove Stormkirk Captain effect, or destroy the creature. Am I missing something here? Just make it so that continuous effects are continuous until interrupted and let's find a fix for loops
Of course Stromkirk Captain should buff other cards that are vampires, but what if one thing turns another into a vampire or removes the type of vampire?
In that case, we want to make sure we apply all the effects that change types before we apply SC's effect which grants abilities and a power/toughness boost only to vampires.
That's the intuitive answer, which is why layers applies type changing effects before effects that add/remove abilities and ones that alter p/t.
The example was to show how it would apply if we changed the system around. It was to illustrate or even ask how would continuous effects apply with each other? How should they apply with each other so that we can get a definite result so that there won’t be a clash of different interpretations.
"I pay 2 mana to remove all abilities from your creature so I'm safe from its ability!" - Me, a noob playing magic in an intuitive way.
"Actually, how about you pay 2 mana and nothing happens?" - The layers.
"But the card says..." Me, still a noob.
"Lol. Lmao even. Did you really think reading the card explains the card? You fool. You clown." - The layers.
Pretty much how it goes
this all just makes me want to play the game less. its not that i dont understand it, it just overcomplicates things. its like the layer system is its own meta game that just saps the fun out of the game i actually want to play. id rather play the game wrong and have fun than sit there trying to figure out when layers take effect and blah blah blah itll make games take way longer. if the card says it, im doing it.
I mean that’s fair. In my opinion this is what makes the game more fun, but who am I to say what’s fun for you or not
i don't think layers suck. i think how hard to remember the layers suck. i should literally just make a reference card of layers just so i can remember it better.
Sure. It's also always helped me to think about why they are ordered the way they are, though that only helps if you can remember which layers exist.
If you have easy excess to the CR, then 613.1a-g has a handy list.
I get that I might make a video to try to make it a bit easier to remember, but it does take a bit of getting used to. An acronym I'm going to put out there is: CCTTCAP
Copy
Control
Text
Type
Color
Abilities
Power and Toughness
Might still be tricky remembering which C is copy/control and which T is text/type, but I'll try to refine it as I go
...what?
Yeah good luck trying to dress down a bunch of bears wearing tutus. They will NOT listen they think they look great
Why yuck their yum?
Easy solution. Don't play magic. Play a fun game instead.
That sounds like a great solution for you
It's mtg PEMDAS
wtf is layers?
I may do a video covering that more in depth in the future!
Sir, we're all citizens of the internet. You don't need to lie, we know they really are THAT obnoxious.
It's not particularly helpful to bash people when trying too teach them something, but it can definitely be annoying if someone is incredibly convinced of something that is flat out incorrect.
I hope I haven't offended anyone with it lol. It makes teaching folks harder when they hate me
Bandaids upon bandaids. I sometimes wish wotc would remake the game from scratch with good rules.
What part of this is a bandaid? What would you feel like is a better way to handle continuous effects?
@@seandun7083 you could have the most recent, highest CMC, enchantment apply it's effect first. Then continue down the line.
But the specific rule doesn't matter as long as it's simple and that no cards that break that rule are printed.
@@LightPink I mean, mana value doesn't work since not all continuous effects are from permanents. +1/+1 counters and ability counters don't have a mv.
Timestamps is one method, but it often leads to results that are less intuitive than the current system. Using Clone on a Arcbound Worker would lead to a 2/2 creature (since the copy effect has a later time stamp than three Arcbound Worker's +1/+1 counter). Playing Fervor then Living Lands leads to your forest creatures not having haste (creatures get haste before forests become creatures).
Any other single metric for ordering continuous effects WILL lead to weird outcomes.
Simplicity is nice, but one advantage that layers have is that for the vast majority of situations, they lead to an intuitive outcome.
You could rebuild the game but removing a whole bunch of continuous effects, but that leads to such a loss of design space that it's a different game entirely, and I'm not convinced it's a better one.
@@seandun7083 I don't think we'd lose that much by simplifying rules but I guess we'll never know.
@@LightPink I mean, let's just look at type changing effects and ability granting effects. If you have Nature's Revolt and Fervor, turning your land into creatures should always happen before you give your creatures haste so that you know which permanents actually are creatures. The only way I see to make sure that that always happens (at least while remaining relatively simple) is just to say that type changing effects happen before ability granting effects.
Both of those effects are also used everywhere. Manlands, vehicles, and stuff like Arcane Adaptation are some of the most common type changing ones. Ability granting appears everywhere from Mighty Leap to Nadu.
Do you see another way to maintain the intuitive interactions between those two types of effects while making things any simpler?
In terms of the rest of the layers, we could maybe remove text changing and color changing since not as many cards care about those, but I also don't really see as many rules questions about them because of that.
But the layers DON'T make intuitive sense. It was a failure in design.
There isn't a single player in the history of MTG who understood layers intuitively the first time they played.
Abilities wiping cards should exist OUTSIDE of the layer system. blanking cards. the layers can still resolve but the cards are still blanked.
Should Dress Down happen before or after the effects of the card Living Lands are applied?
Should Dress Down happen before or after the effects of Benalish Marshal are applied?
If your answers are "after" and "before", then congrats. You just placed layer 6 between layers 4 and 7.
People don't understand the specific rules on how layers function when they are new any more then they understand APNAP order, but I think that just like APNAP, layers offer a system that both makes the intuitive answer correct the majority of the time as well as providing a consistent answer to all possible interactions.
Another important point is that the simplest system isn't the same as the most intuitive one. There are parts of the layers system that are made more complex to support people's intuition.
Only using timestamps would be simpler than using layers, dependencies, and timestamps, but that would lead to plenty of weird interactions like Dress Down not affecting crewed Vehicles that enter after it does.
@@seandun7083 ability wiping cards should always be before
@@shadowlife15then Dress Down will never remove the abilities of Vehicles or animated lands, but will remove the effects of stuff enchanted by Swift Reconfiguration which removes the type "creature".
@@seandun7083 Not if ability wiping cards aren't in the layer system at all. "does this card wor.... NOPE! BLANKED!" would be the response for every single card in the game.
@@shadowlife15 so the only ones allowed are the ones that remove abilities from all permanents? Or is it just that dress down would remove abilities from anything that is gaining OR losing the type creature?
What if Dress Down is itself turned into a creature?
What if we have both an animated Dress Down and an animated Humility? Other creatures will presumably not have abilities, but will they be 1/1?