When I was in school, some 15 years ago, we had a few weeks where parents, relatives, friends, etc. where explaining their professions/jobs. There was one guy working as a sound engineer. He told us: "A lot of people make one mistake. They buy expensive amplifiers, CD and cassette players and have no money left for speakers. Take your cheap Aldi (a Supermarket, if you might not know this) amplifier/Hifi-system and put some good quality speakers to it. Much better in terms of quality and money spent than buying an expensive amplifier and taking the Aldi speakers."
I'm from South Africa too and what really kills us here is the exchange rate. So as much as the audiophiles in this county would love to purchase high-end equipment, the price plays a huge factor in our buying decisions. but I like your advice Paul, good quality speakers are the way to go.
A related question might be - Could a cheap audio system actually sound worse, if you upgrade the speakers but not the amplifier and source equipment? In a few cases, this might happen. For example, if the amp and source sounded so bad that they needed cheap speakers to muffle their worst traits, then detail-revealing speakers might create a harsh-sounding system. Or if the speakers needed vast amounts of power (current) to sound good, an underpowered amp might work better with cheaper speakers - IF the cheaper speakers were efficient enough for that cheap amp. Otherwise, I'd say Paul is right (as usual) but there could be some rare exceptions.
As always an honest an informative answer/response. I love that someone who earns his living selling high end audio equipment mentioned diminishing returns. A Camaro performs pretty well and is a fast car that will get you from point a to point b. However a Porsche performs better and will get you there in a lot more style. If you value that performance increase and have the budget to support your desire for better performance it's well worth the price increase.
So long as your new speakers are not a pain to drive, as in a crazy impedance curve, or a higher than 'normal' amount of power to 'wake them up' Sometimes designers of expensive speakers assume you have an amp that can easily drive two ohm loads with heaps of power etc., demands not usually made by lesser speakers.
Been there, done that. My Martin Logan`s sucked the life out of my cheap amp. Went into protection mode after 4 songs or so at moderate volumes. Got a better amp, even though 10w/chan less than the cheap amp, problem solved.
It's not going to work well, the better your speakers, the more you will hear deficiencies in your amps and sources, there's no real way around this problem
as one proceeds upwards on the musical scale of audio reproduction, the rule of diminishing returns certainly applies. there's nothing fundamentally wrong w/ chasing improvements that will increase in cost exponentially as one seeks nirvana. another important rule as one gets to the exponential / diminishing arena; "the increasing importance of the smaller difference". human sensing & cognition is (obviously) complex... & it presents bias; humans are not so accurate at making absolutistic determinations, yet are very well-tuned to making comparisons (evolution, man!), and are also highly trainable. the issue we do not adequately credit is as powerfully egocentric creatures w/ relatively passable minds, we conflate our personal assessment of "best-among-alternatives" with "absolute perfection". humans seek goals through upbringing/ education, experience, and idealism {this last may partly explain extremist tendencies in general... individuality can drive genius or insanity... in extremis it may lead to enlightened civilization, violence, crazy religions, excellent audio components, fine art & music, or even bad manners}. our being imperfect analog processors, person-to-person / case-to-case we vary in performance when perceiving the natural & created world. this is why the Quants & Quals contend, why there is a high end audiophile culture & marketplace, and why the contention generates heat along with some occasional light. it also reminds us why experts point out the importance of how one's sound system must be understood as a System. & finally, to the simple guidance (esp in audio, where is doesn't lead to actual war); "whatever makes you happy".
Excellent answer Paul. I agree 100%. I learned this in 1979 with installing car stereos. Speakers make the biggest difference. The $80 Aiyima A07 amp is good for $2000 speakers but don't forget a good dac like the $110 SMSL Sanskrit 2. The Sprout is a good choice. I decided on a 100 wpc class a/b amp on sale for $300 and a preamp for $220 (Emotiva and Schiit). The preamp doubles as an amp for my planar magnetic headphones.
Usually the degree of improvement you are seeking from the amp or gear still gets expensive if the speakers are really really good because those higher end speakers will bring out the short falls of the lesser amp or gear. But you could always go used with great gear, save money, and have your cake and eat it too. 👍
Agree. I had to put my Wharfedales with a cheap stand-in amp, when my main amp faulted. Didn't work out - something wrong. Got around to replacing the faulted amp a few years later with a proper job - and gosh was there a difference! The Wharfes have a difficult impedance dip - the cheapo amp didn't like it. The good replacement amp did cope. The cheapo put in a slight distortion - it was there and once you'ld heard it, your ear was tuned into it :(
I have yet to hear an Emotiva amp, but those who have told me not only do they sound great and tend to punch above their price, but the customer service (which I have experienced myself as well) is real good from the Emotiva folks.
@@AllboroLCD Personally, I really would not consider the PS Audio Sprout a step up from Emotiva. For the price point and being somewhat familiar, I think the Sprout would be more of a lateral move actually, if anything. As for the Stellar line and the like, there is some stiff competition out there in amps.
ANYTHING from Emotiva is probably going to be best price to performance in its class. Their speakers (despite recant price hike) are amazing for the price
Important to consider the speakers efficiency. If you have a cheap ie low power to, amp and inefficient speakers you'll not be happy and end up clipping when you go for volume. Better amps the better the speakers can reveal their potential. Old rule of thumb is spend a 1/3 0n speakers, source and amps. For one source.
I appreciate your thoughtful and helpful response. Quite the opposite from nutcase uber audiophiles who will tell you that the most important thing is thousand dollar fuses.
I’m sorry I have always disagreed with this philosophy and recommendation. I strongly feel it’s more important to buy better electronics as the detail comes from the equipment and source. Speakers can only reproduce what they are given. There is some excellent sounding budget speakers and if coupled with good equipment that can reveal the detail in the music you would be shocked how good even budget speakers can sound. If you go with the other approach you will end up with poor sounding expensive speakers. Sorry completely disagree.
Not in my experience,but what is being said here is start with the speakers and work from that.The speakers are the window to the system and you will be able to judge better what the amp is doing with better speakers.If you can afford to upgrade everything at once well good for you,not all of us can afford that though.
@@spandel100 well I agree that your best with starting with speakers and then matching the electronics that will both power the speakers properly and compliment them sonically, BUT I completely disagree that more emphasis should be put more on the speakers then the electronics. Not to say speakers are not important BUT if you spend to much on speakers then you will not hear there potential or even get decent sound if your now stuck with coupling them with mediocre equipment. When you understand that the detail in the music comes from the source and equipment then even modest priced speakers will clearly out perform your expensive speakers you invested a majority of your budget in. The majority of people think like Paul here and then wonder why their system is un involving. Now certainly if your understand you will be upgrading as you go then sure buy the best speakers that you can at time knowing your going to need to upgrade the equipment to bring out the full potential of what the speakers can provide. But understanding what role each part of the system plays is critical in designing a good sounding system.
You are 1000% Wrong (Unless the amp is so bad, that you are getting loud hissing noises, when its not even getting a signal). Typical stereo amps, put out very clean and dynamic audio. Even many cheap Integrated amps, and or Boom Boxes, can produce very high resolution audio output. That same thing cant be said about cheap speakers. No matter how good of an audio source that you feed them... if they are unable to replicate them without distortions (due to poor design, low power magnets, low power voice coils..etc)... then all of those details will be completely gone. Its like trying to compare a singer that can only sing in a single Octave... vs... Mariah Carey, that is said to have an 8 octave vocal range. If you ask the Single Octave singer to try to replicate Mariah's vocals... they wont be able to do it. Their voice is simply not capable of it... no matter how hard they try. I use an old Pioneer 5.1 surround sound amp, thats like 32 yrs old. I bought it new, when I was 16yrs old... for probably around $450 (memory could be wrong, but I know that it, the speaker wire, and the laserdisc player I bought with it, were under 1k). For many years, I used them with 90s era Technique 3-way 200watt capable speakers. I always thought they sounded decent... until I eventually bought some audiophile grade headphones. That revealed how much detail that those speakers were unable to produce... and how badly they colored and distorted the sound... Not long afterwards... I found some used 70s era Audiophile grade speakers (EPI 100v). They were like a third of the size of the techs, but Probably 3x the weight of them. These things completely DESTROYED my Techniques speakers, in every way possible. I was hearing things in old music, that I had never been able to hear before... such as fuzzy lyrics of the singer.. that were now crystal clear. The amp always had the ability to push out all of that detail. It was the speakers that were incapable of playing, without distorting it to hell. Mind you... I am a speaker-holic. In total, Ive probably owned over 30 different speakers. Sadly... none of them were Audiophile grade... and none came even close to the old EPI speakers. The fact is, amp technology is very simple... and was perfected far far long ago. It does not take much, to create and maintain a clean, dynamic, amplification of the original input. Where as poor quality speaker drivers that cut corners... are in the Mass Majority. Beginning in the 80s, speakers started to go ECO. They used lower magnet strengths on the woofers, with lower voice coil strength. They added bass ports, which allowed these lower powered ECO woofers, to be able to put out enough volume... though, it was at the expense of not having enough control... as well as artificial sounding bass, and other port-noise based distortions. Things have only gotten worse and worse for the general store purchasable Speakers, as time went on. So, IMO, you likely have never heard a real Audiophile grade speaker in your life... to be saying useless and incorrect such Drivel. And or, you were trying to power your speakers with a $3 amp from an AM Radio. >_
I totally agree with you, right or wrong I don’t know. I have a pair of Klipsch RF 62’s that I like but I’m slowly upgrading and I chose to go in what some think is the wrong way. I’m convinced that my speakers can shine with better equipment so therefore I’ve started with a new power amplifier, using my receivers pre-out and next step is a new preamplifier with a dac. After that it will be new speakers. I’ve already demoed my goal-system and this is a part of that journey 😅
Kevin, better speakers will reveal more of what is good, and what is bad, with all of your gear. If you are purchasing the speakers from a local store, schedule with the store a time for you to bring in your integrated amplifier, and connect it to the speakers that are in the store. Ideally, you should borrow the speakers, to demo them in your home. Absent that option, I recommend bringing all of your gear to the store, and connect it to the new speakers. The room will be different (and that matters). But you will get a good idea of whether or not you like it. Also bring whatever songs you are familiar with. Do not play the store's version of the song titles, as the sound quality might differ if the songs come from different releases. Of course, if the store has the same song, and they know that their version has better sound quality, then give it a listen (it will convey more of what the stereo can do). Absent that, listen to what you know, as that will be what you will be normally playing in your home. You should not introduce additional variables into the equation. The only change in your listening session should be the speakers (and the room, if necessary to listen at the store).
I rejected that strategy long ago as audio magazine fantasy stuff, because no mater how much fawning conversation is chewed over, at the end of the day, I am still talking to a guy with only one or two products that might fit my needs, in a world swarming with fine products. with a "salon" I would be paying for way too much overhead for my little budget. Even back when audio "salons" were a heck of a lot more popular, I was more comfortable doing research than depending on a salesperson with only one or two products that might fit my needs, and often knows how to sell better than the product, where I often knew more, since forming a buying decision brought me to the store, er, audio salon, in the first place. Given how human hearing works , it would be hard to form a valid conclusion anyway in such circumstances , because of a little thing called the "white coat effect" As a matter of fact , one well recognized audio writer was bragging about this effect on UA-cam recently , whither he knows it or not ,or even cares beyond his self promoting desired results. He states he attends audio meets with a lacquer pressing and always gets raves all around about the impressive sound of his ultra rare formatted record. In contrast, companies pressing records take great care to rush the lacquer pressings from the same stage of record making quickly into processing, as they know that lacquer degrades quickly on the top frequencies with just the passing of time, and certainly without repeated playings. only one approach can be right, yet both hear great sound within their respective realities, and both pay the bills from the results of their chosen use of a lacquer pressing or pressings.
@@richardelliott8352 Before I purchase a car, I take it for a drive. Before I purchase a TV, I look at its picture. Before I purchase stereo gear, I listen to it. I reject those that reject the above. If my own ears tell me that I do not care for the sound, then I do not care about any proclaimed "effects". I will pass on what I do not care to hear. If my own ears tell me that I love the sound, then I do not care about any proclaimed "effects". I will purchase that equipment, budget permitting. I do not see the relevance of your "lacquer" story. When I shop for audio gear, how does that anonymous person's lacquer operations factor into what I hear on the candidates I am considering for a purchase?
@@richardelliott8352 How do you get all that from reading his post? The whole point of taking the trouble to listen to speakers with your equipment is so you don't have to rely on someone else's opinion. "Given how human hearing works , it would be hard to form a valid conclusion anyway in such circumstances , because of a little thing called the "white coat effect" " You won't take advice on audio components from the people who work with them every day, but its OK to trust a reviewer's psych diagnosis? When you think for yourself, you make your own mistakes. When you let someone think for you, they make mistakes for you. Make your own mistakes.
@@NoEgg4u That's the sensible approach to take. I have yet to come across another commercial enterprise that markets products that come with such an extensive quantity of snake oil than in the HiFi trade. Have you tried auditioning studio derived products? I was turned off by the marketing nonsense of HiFi brands and went the studio route for the last system I purchased and I got a system that was great value for money. In particular the sound quality of active speakers surprised me and as an example if you read reviews of the ATC SCM 40 speakers there are two versions of it one passive and the other active and reviewers almost always recommend the active versions irrespective of the price of the amps powering the passive version.
@@markgallagher5908 I have a pair of AR Powered Partners speakers that I have been using with various computers over the decades (I believe that I purchased these speakers in 1993). They are not the last word in sonic performance. But I have never needed to replace them. They sound very good. So, yes, powered speakers are a great option. But you are committing yourself to their included, built-in amps. No upgrade path. I think that I spent $225 on my speakers in 1993 (which, adjusted for inflation, is roughly $450, today). So not terribly expensive. And I am sure that for $450, today, better sound can be had. If the active version of the ATC SCM 40 speakers always sound better than their passive version, it means that the manufacturer worked hard on finding electronics that were a great match for those speakers. So you would be hard-pressed to find other electronics, at the same price of the speaker's included electronics, to sound better. As to "irrespective of the price of the amps powering the passive version", those reviews are probably not using the right pre-amps and amps. Some speakers are finicky with which electronics make them sound good. Price will not always dictate a great match. But there are probably some very good choices for the passive version. It is just a matter of identifying those amps, and at the right price point. But that is not easy to accomplish. If the active version sounds great, then it is probably not worth the effort to find amps for the passive version that sound better and in the proper price range. As to snake oil... It is usually easy to identify. Stay away from those sellers. Buy only what you have heard with your own ears. Or, if that is not an option, then buy only what you can return. Or, if that is not an option, buy only that which has gotten great reviews from reputable reviewers. If you watch enough videos, and read enough articles, you will learn who the BS artists are, and who the reputable reviewers are. I am fortunate to have a few high-end stores within an hour's driving distance -- one of which has systems that really sound great (the owner has a great ear and knows how to set things up and match components). So I have a great resource for hearing for myself various systems. I know that no snake oil is involved, based on how great those systems sound. There are many hi-fi brands that are the real deal. But it is easy to lose faith if you do not know about them and get burned. You can piece together really great sounding gear, without breaking the bank, when you know the right people and the right brands. Make the right choices, and a $3,000 system will sound better than a $9,000 system. I have heard some wildly expensive systems that grinded on my nerves. I would rather listen to my AR Powered Partners than some $100,000+ systems that I have heard. I have heard entry level systems that sound great, all the way up to "money-no-object" systems that are amazing. My point being that it is not all snake oil. And like buying a used car, you have to do your homework and keep your guard up.
I would say that an amp can make a big difference. We usually Yo-Yo with system upgrades. The I upgraded speakers and then made 3 amp upgrades. Going from an integrated amp to tube monos and then 2 different solid state stereo amps. I recently upgraded from my classe delta separates to Dan D’Agostino momentum M400 monos and the Momentum HD pre. They are paired with a pair of Rockport Atria II which are very resolving. The issue is now that the front end is over 3x what the speakers cost (I did not pay that for the D’Agostino). The upside is I have my forever amps now, but have that itch to upgrade speakers. 😊
I have always thought a middle quality amp will be most cost effective and put your money in speakers… Speakers are the weak link…. And PS Audio integrated amp is perfect example…
If you have experience and are somewhat a person of means, I say getting a GREAT amp is the best foundation. It will make $600 speakers sound 3 times what they’re worth, but also work perfectly well with a $3k pair of speakers. I have so enjoyed hearing KEF 150’s and Maggie LRS’s do the impossible, scaling up to the stratosphere…all because of that Pass amp. 👍
From my personal experience which is not a lot, I have heard mediocre speakers sound really good with high quality amplification. I have heard Hi-Fi speakers sound horrible with poor amplification. But you don't have to spend thousands of dollars for decent quality amplification. Hard to drive speakers require a quality source. Most speakers are eight ohm and are driven fairly easily. I have been wanting to upgrade for 6 years but cannot make myself pull the trigger. My Onkyo tx8511 has been a Workhorse and 100% trouble free. The only time I want to upgrade is when I read other reviews on Hi-Fi equipment. But when I am listening to my stereo I hardly ever get the itch to upgrade.
Paul does not talk about the watts of the amp vs. efficiency of the speaker vs. how loud in dB a person wants to listen. If the Sprout puts out a 100w a side, into a 90 dB+ efficient speaker and the listener does not listen much above 80 dB, the 100 w will easily take care of peak passages.
Return On Investment is the usual term - and the returns diminish as you spend more and more on a system. Spend the first upgrade money wisely and on the part that gains you most ROI - the speakers will usually yield the most obvious improvement or difference in a system, so that's where to start.
I'm one of these people who's jumped on the new wave of cheap Chinese Texas Instruments 3255 class D amps! I'm on disability so it's all I can afford, but my Aiyima A07 with discreet op amps installed in it sounds a heck of a lot better than the old surround receivers I was using before! I would love a better amp but even a 'cheap' mainstream amp would be way out of my price range. It sounds amazing to my ears so I'm content with it.
First spend all your money on audiophile cable lifters and then some day sell your car and buy your cables to fit into them nicely. Then start imagining how you can save the US$200,000 to buy the rest to match your first investments 😃
What do you have against people that have the means to buy the most expensive cables, preamps, amps, DACs, speakers etc.? Are they any different than the people that have the means to buy $200,000 dollar cars or a 1.5-million-dollar home? Are the companies that make these products bad? Should they be put out of business? Or should each individual spend their money on what they want weather you think it's a bad idea or not?
@@Mark-lq3sb Cars and houses are not snake oil. Car manufacturers don't claim that you can fly with their products to the moon and back. And with only one tank of gas at that. Companies designing, building or selling a house doesn't claim that it's a teleportating Dracula castle. If they did they would be sued to liquidation. The claims most audiofool manufacturers, dealers and "reviewers"make are ludicrous and people who believe them should be locked up in the looney bin. Common sense is a rare thing in the audiofool world. "There's a sucker born every minute" "A fool and his money are soon parted"
Couldn't be arsed to look at all the permutuations for upgrading the interconnects ,Speakers with matching up an amp, and what speaker cabelling to get...not only that but what quality crossovers are in the speaker cabinets...ended up just getting a pair of Kef LSX 2 powered speakers instead.No Crossover (done in DSP) matched up built in class d Amps , No speaker cabling , streamer or Dacs needed !
I haven't heard the KEF's but powered speakers in general represent great value for money although manufactures would rather you but separates instead.
Once you find the sound signature you like regrading the speakers. you then need to look into your amp and ask can this amp drive the load? some speakers dip to 4ohms and below does your amp have the current to drive them and how about the sensitivity to drive them to the listening levels without the amp clipping or distorting. also does the sound signature match what your amp puts out? if your speakers are on the bright side doubt you want a bright amp and so forth. But yes speakers first provided you can also afford the amp it takes to drive them.
Hi I AM AN OLD SCHOOL INDIAN SOUND ENGINEER FROM 1980s,GOT A DIPLAMO FROM SINGAPORE CHINESE TEACHER, WHAT IS CHEAP,AND EXPENSIVE, THE QUALITY OF ELECTRONIC COMPONENT USED MAKES THE DIFFERENS,AMPS NEED GOOD ELECTRIC POWER TRANSFORMERS,220V STEP DOWN TO 12v,24v,, DC.,which should not make any humming SOUND, NOW CHINESE ARE MAKING CHEAP SOUND SYSTEM, SPEAKERS, we INDIAN'S cannot make it localy pity us,💯💥💥💥💥💥
Cost and musical performance do not always correspond. The rules are therefore there to be broken if you buy the right gear. I have driven a pair of expensive Kef 107 Reference and Naim SBL loudspeakers, using a small NAD 3020b integrated amplifier with very satisfying results. However the garbage in, garbage out maxim still applies.
Mr. McGowan is simply wrong here, as before. The fundamenteal mistake he always makes is the idea that the performance of the loudspeakers is determined mainly by the properties of the loudspeaker. But the loudspeaker does not make music on its own: it is driven -"told what to do"- by the amplifier. So a good amplifier is essential for a good result. Furthermore, the result is compromised by the acoustics of the room. Investing in acoustics usually will yield more than in more expensive (better of "better") loudspeakers. Big manufacturers like Focal, Dynaudio and such make fairly good affordable loudspeakers. How good it will sound, depends on the amplification and the room. Big, high end, demanding loudspeakers combined with a mediocre amplifier will never sound good. It works the other way around: the loudspeaker will let you hear very well what is not good about the rest of the system! So always start with a high quality, reasonably high powered amplifier. In this country, people tend to buy big floorstanders for too small a room and drive these with insufficient amplifiers. It is a disaster, really. Many are disappointed and seduced to buy even bigger, more expensive loudspeakers, which will only makes things worse. Mr. McGowan makes things worse with a wrong advice. Does it make sense to connect cheap amps and electronics to expensive speakers? NO, OF CORSE IS DOES NOT, MORON!
The guy from the question comes from South Africa. Do you think they can afford an expensive speaker or amp? He wants to know if he can get an acceptable sound with available products.
I tryed (and will be trying) different amps and sources with my speakers and when I bought really good source I can tell that cheap chinese D amp does not make such problem as bad source does, even with good amp. Because if source is bad even best amplifier has nothing to amplify.
Figure out how much you're willing to spend for both. Spend 50% on a pair you like the sound of in the store with the stipulation that you can try out four or five different amps at home to find the one that works best. You will know.
I did that when I started in higher end audio. had a cheap philips midi system, and blew a speaker, so bought new speakers, quality ones, then eventually replacing that amp, and so on...
i look at as, the amps have the least change on the signal. so the greater perception in improvement would come from speakers first. but when u get good speakers, its only so much u can get by upgrading, so the next step is better amps. then when u get good amps, then u will see a bigger improvement by better speakers. so u walk ur way up.
The amplifier is the “backbone” of your system. With speakers, it’s the efficiency of speakers. The term “Cheap” has a whole lot of definitions in the audio world with people. Some people will call an amplifier “Cheap” because a knob doesn’t feel right to their expectations when turning it. You hear this all the time with audio reviewers on UA-cam crying and whining about a knob on the amplifier. It’s the components inside that amplifier and who makes those components that count. Not necessarily who assembled it. Pricing markups are another key factor. Markups can be as much as 70%. That is why you see sales marked down to 50 to 60% on sale. That’s a red flag. That is when you know you are getting into cheap internal components categories. For many people such products work fine for them for what they are using it for. For instance a new Sony receiver at BestBuy for $119.00. Works great for them, that is why it’s a popular item at that price point. The term “Cheap” has a different definition to different people.
@@johnloupis2347 People that are strictly streaming only from their phone/tablet have lots of good system choices to choose from today. Just an amplifier and two speakers, maybe a sub. With a Direct cable connection from the phone/tablet to the amplifier. Today’s phones/tablets have all the codec’s built into them. Simple all digital setup, plug and play. Now you have Global access to music/artists 24/365. You can use UA-cam discovery to cross reference over to other streaming services. Shazam to identify songs/artists for cross referencing.
Yup. My Pioneer Elite m10x power amp $400 in it's day, has ok build quality, but sounds phenomenal. It can hold it's own against almost any amp out there.
@@jman8368 Right... It makes me wonder if we have just about hit the peak as far as the best of the best equipment. Speakers may have a way to go still.
@@johnloupis2347 I don’t have an answer for that question. Nano Technology is still evolving, we are not there yet 100%. Scientists are now talking about data information stored at the molecular level on molecules. It would make super computers used today seem SLOW. Maybe some day we won’t have speakers as we know them today. Audio will be sent on a molecular level though the air by some magical technology we don’t know yet. Can we someday restore our hearing artificially with some new advanced technology we don’t have today..?? I Don’t know, just have to live longer to find out..LOL Given the current coarse of history as we see it right now. I cannot imagine what it will be like 100/200 years from now. We might be extinct by then. LOL.
I would encourage the gentleman who asked the question to also assess his listening space and the speakers' position within it. Sometimes just little tweaks to positioning make all the difference between hard and flat vs deep and invisible. You can spend all the money you want on amps, but if the room isn't thought out...
Just get a used Pass Labs…if you can find one. I adore my X150.5. Works supremely well with Maggies and also has 16 watts of class A for higher efficiency speakers. Covers all bases.
I guess it really depends on what you consider "cheap." I can't count the number of customers I've had that would purchase $10k+ speakers and then have no budget for a proper amplifier and they would end up ruining their high end (and expensive!) speakers due to distortion by under-powering them and clipping... If you're buying a full system in one go, which no one ever really does, then I would agree with the comment to match the amp with the speakers based on your budget. However, if you're buying your first components and plan to upgrade later, I always tell customers to buy the amp they really want someday first and some cheaper speakers now. You can always "overpower" a speaker without damage and upgrade the speakers later, but you can't really fo the opposite. In the end, it all comes down to the customer, their needs, and what they plan to do with the system in the future. If you're eventually planning to buy amp and speakers though, I would personally start with the amp, it's incredible how many people don't have an ear for distortion!
Paul, One thing I most appreciate about about you is your open honesty in a world where there is so much deception. This is another video that only proves your candor with those who look to you for answers. I do not have much in the way of earthly treasures,but have enjoyrd my sound over much of my 75 years on this planet; but what I have, to me is the greatest gift I can share.. the times, you have to admit have changed dramatically since we have been young. i, not for sympathy or pity, have cancer, but
As you go up the price curve on speakers, you'll get better sounding speakers. As you go up the price curve on amplifiers, you'll get a bigger price tag.
Get your room right with the existing equipment first and see what that does for you. Sound is about 60% room optimizing placement and 40% equipment. If I had the choice and a limited budget I would focus on amp quality first. If you have crap for amplification then the speaker could be ultra expensive and still sound awful. If you have a great quality amp and a good but not great speaker the sound tends to be much better. Then over time you can upgrade speaker to bigger one in the line of the brand or change brands. Also a little tip is your local audio store sometimes might give deals on floor models. These are items that typically come with the same warranty (ask them) as new but at much better prices.
Yes, buy the speakers now, add a better amp later. Make sure your source isn’t the limiting factor. By the time you’re done, the speakers will make up a third of the total system cost, and you’ll see how much your enjoyment has increased.
I always answer this question this way: "Improving your speaker eliminates insufficiencies while improving your amp adds magic, so what do you want at this point of your stereo journey?"
You quickly hit the wall of the "law of diminishing returns". There is also the issue of how demanding of a reactive load, it is, that the speakers present to the power amplifier. The more exotic the speaker; the more that this is likely to be a major concern, to you and your wallet :-) Audition the Tannoy active speaker range, from which, there is a couple of affordable options, from which to choose. Neuman also do a range of near-field actives that are not cheap, but are of a reasonable price, and are really well built. Use a simple mixer for the pre-amp :-)
I used to think that amplification quality was no where near as important as high quality speakers. Now I feel that no matter how good your speakers are they are still limited by the quality of the amplification. I wasted too many years believing that original lie. I feel vindicated now that I have the best of both worlds.
I always like to keep my components in the same price neighborhood, My Arcam Amp was $800 and I paired it with a pair of Wharfedale Denton 80's.... Which were released at $800.
Hmmmm. Not sure I agree with him on this, a long time ago the prevailing wisdom was to spend money on the speakers as they were what you were listening to. Then along came Linn (a UK manufacturer of a high end turntable & arm) who challenged that advice. Their logic was that whatever signal/information was lost at the source could not be replaced by more expensive components (amplifiers & speakers) later on in the system. This was demonstrated at some of the Hi Fi shows that I attended. I don’t know what your source is (vinyl or CD) but since the ‘old’ analogue days things have got a whole lot more complex with DACs & interconnects but I think that the general advice would still be the same. In the end, a ‘balanced’ system that follows those guidelines will, generally, provide a better listening experience.
Exactly.. garbage in, garbage out. Also, this was too general.. “Good, expensive” speakers paired with a “good, inexpensive” amp could be ok or it could be a disaster.. This was definitely not a three minute question; there’s so much more to discuss here !! 👨🏻
From what I recall the advice from one HiFi magazine in the 80's was for the source to be the most expensive part of the system the amp was to cost 50% of the source and the speakers 50% of the amp. That never made sense to me as the speakers make the most difference to sound quality but nowadays I go for powered speakers and a good DAC can be got for $1000 and a reasonable CD transport or streamer can cost the same. In general there are only very small differences in CD transports once you go over $1000 and it's the same with DAC's.
The first part: "no, expensive speakers do not require and expensive amplifier" is correct. That said, "Expensive amplifiers absolutely always perform better" is incorrect. There are a number of expensive amps out there, not worth anyone's time just as there are a number of inexpensive amps not worth looking at. On the flip side, there are a number of inexpensive amps that punch well above their price (Emotiva, Outlaw, to name a couple). There are also a number of expensive amps that are great if budget allows (Accuphase, Parasound, Prima Luna, to name a few). *The PS Audio Sprout is NOT the only inexpensive amp that "sounds great". I know you are obligated to mention it as you should and I have no doubt that it does sound great, but the Sprout is not for everyone. If one is looking for rack size components or needs more than one analog input besides the built-in phono stage (which is not that good), the Sprout comes up well short. As to diminishing returns: Yes, always keep that in mind! If the asker is using a cheap modern receiver, then they may well experience a nice upgrade in sonics from the Sprout. If they are using a true vintage receiver though, not so much. Some vintage receivers from the 70s can blast the doors off some of the more expensive amps out there today. That should be no surprise. Some of your finer high end amps come from the vintage receivers and integrated amps and are built in a similar way. The important thing is matching the speakers to the amp or visa versa. Example: the amp should handle the load or impedance of said speakers (ohm rate = 2,4,6,8) and the timbre or native sound of the amp should work well with said speakers. Example: if the speakers are tilted up or bright, then one should seek out an amp the leans more towards the warm side of neutral. That is really all there is to it, no need to overthink it.
This is where I somewhat disagree with Paul. I say somewhat because I actually do agree with his advice to the person asking the question. But my caveat would be to be prepared for the speakers to reveal the worst of your amplifier. You may not enjoy the combination and an upgrade to the amp will be necessary. Whereas if they upgraded the amp it would bring out the best of the speakers . You may enjoy this step more. I agree with Paul's advice here however only because when an opportunity for an upgrade comes up, take it.
Ah, you see, I respectfully disagree. In my experience, it's the speakers that change a system most immediately and noticeably, and if you're on a limited budget I think the way to invest is speakers first. I've heard cheaper systems - like those that come with an integrated amp and speaker set (the mini systems we used to buy back in the 80s) - immediately sound better with a change of speakers, and that gives you the breathing space to build up reserves to spend more on the amp, as and when you can afford to do so. Similarly, I've heard great amps paired with poor speakers, and the amp has no chance of performing well if it's playing through crappy speakers. What I've never heard is a good amp making crappy speakers sound anything other than crappy. The other key thing to consider is that speakers are the only moveable bit - so if you invest in good floorstanders, or in good standmounters, you have the flexibility to tinker and adjust the set up, and find the right speakers for your room; for my library, for example floorstanders are a no-no, too bassy, too large for the listening space, but a standmount pair with a separate sub is perfect.
@@richardt3371 right, fair points. So my experience is the opposite. I guess the differentiator is the speaker itself. I had an old technics rack system with a cheap integrated. I hooked up a pair of small mordaunt short bookdhelfs and they sounded unlistenable. I hooked them up one time to an audio note / bryston combo, they sounded amazing, you'd think they were worth 10 times the price. This is an extreme example but I've had similar experiences with other combinations. My dcm timeframe t600s, for instance, sound horrible with cheap electronics. I'd be pretty upset if my upgrades took me in that direction and I'd have to live with it for awhile.
@@rig4365 Fair enough - personal experience is the only true measure after all. There's something to be said for matching the quality of components, and also the environment they are in - for example, I can't use floorstands in one of my rooms because they absolutely dominate, but going to the standmounts from the same speaker range with a separate REL sub to pick up the bass, and the system absolutely sings. The amp in both cases was the same, so there's truth in what you say that incorrectly matched speakers within a system can ruin the whole thing. I wouldn't suggest someone pairs the FR30s with a Yamaha amp, but common sense and all that. However, I'd still spend more time and effort getting the speakers right before looking at the other components, and once I got the speakers right they're the last part of my system that I'll change out.
Hi, I have a Panasonic Home Theater HT-995. The amplifier unit is damaged. I want to run the speakers with alternate amplifiers. Pls. suggest me if the following will be compatible or okay. Thanks in advance. Panasonic-HT995-------- RMS Output Power: Dolby Digital Mode Front Ch 125 W per channel (3 ≠), 1 kHz, 10 % THD Surround Ch 125 W per channel (3 ≠), 1 kHz, 10 % THD Center Ch 250 W per channel (6 ≠), 1 kHz, 10 % THD Subwoofer Ch 250 W per channel (6 ≠), 100 Hz, 10 % THD Total RMS Dolby Digital mode power 1000 W Alternate-01----------- Sony BDV-E290: POWER OUTPUT (reference) Front L/Front R/Surround L/Surround R:125 W (per channel at 3 ohms, 1 kHz) Center: 250 W (at 6 ohms, 1 kHz) Subwoofer: 250 W (at 6 ohms, 80 Hz) Alternate-02---------- Sony- E3100: POWER OUTPUT (reference) Front L/Front R/Surround L/Surround R:125 W (per channel at 3 ohms, 1 kHz) Center:250 W (at 6 ohms, 1 kHz) Subwoofer:250 W (at 6 ohms, 80 Hz) Alternate-03-------- Sony-DAV-DZ350: POWER OUTPUT (reference): Front L/Front R/Center/Surround L/Surround R: 167 W (per channel at 3 ohms, 1 kHz) Subwoofer: 165 W (at 3 ohms, 100 Hz)
Sound better is so subjective. Do you want to feel the bass drum in your chest ? Do you want to hear all the details and crispiness ? Do you want that hi fi sound with a round bass and silky highs ?
Better is neutral / linear! If there is bass drum on the record I want to feel it - you clown don't understand the word HiFi especially the fidelity part
@@Harald_Reindl you clown don't know that there isn't a linear speaker in the world even the proacs and the augspurger monitors 😂💖 I was talking about the feeling that you get when listening, you're weird with your linear stuff, is that how you listen ?
@@alexandre7634 surely, that's what room-acoustics combiend with room-eq is for - again: if the intention on the reord is to feel the bass in your chest it has to be so - if it's not a intended it mustn't be so
@@Harald_Reindl This is a laughable argument. If you are playing a song at lower volume levels... no matter what speakers or amps you own... they are not going to THUMP your chest. Furthermore... you can buy some of the Cheapest speakers, and the cheapest low-quality amps... to get enough powerful bass to blow out your windows. But Raw Power, is not "Dynamic Fidelity". Just like a Kitchen Knife wielded by the average Joe slasher... is not the same as a Surgeon and their Scalpel. There are countless Thumpy car stereos, with bass that will shake nearby buildings. Yet, thats basically all that they do. There is no clarity and details, in the rest of the output. Furthermore... if you actually appreciate every aspect of the drums... then you are not going to get a realistic image of Jazz Drumming, or something like the drums on Rush's song "Tom Sawyer", from those thumpy thumpy car stereo type of systems. Even loud PA concert speakers, are not going to be anywhere near as clean and detailed, as Audiophile grade speakers. (The tend to be harsh, fatiguing, and grating, after only a sort time of listening to these type of "Party Speakers")
@@johndough8115 where did I talk about volume moron - oh and even at low volumes I feel bass because there are devices for it (but that's a different story)
Just an FYI Paul, for the vast majority of Americans $800 isn't an inexpensive amplifier! Just to be clear are you saying that your more expensive amplifiers sound better than your sprout amplifier? Who would want to spend 800 hard-earned dollars on an amplifier that isn't the best quality possible? Just askin for a workin class friend.
@@jasonkillsformomy Because Paul addresses Hi End buyers. He tries to be diplomatic but he knows very well that you can't get good sound with little money! I have sound systems at home that cost something but not that much, and I thought they sounded great until I heard some Visaton speakers at a friend's house, Visaton speakers built by him. He bought the kit on the recommendation of some specialists in the field of speakers. He's a sound maniac. And these speakers were amplified by a famous Sony ES amplifier, and although it also had a Rotel amplifier more expensive than Sony, I liked more how it sounded on that Sony! I think my friend was also lucky that his Visaton speakers fit so well with the Sony ES amplifier, because the sound seemed fabulous to me! wowwww what a sound!!! I didn't want to leave the speakers.When I got home and turned on my systems, I didn't like it at all. Whatever settings I tried, I didn't like how it sounded. I sit and think about how it sounds in the test rooms of those from PS Audio! I can't even imagine! Conclusion, you can't get decent sound with little money.
Well, sprout is more than just an amplifier. It has a dac, a preamp, and a headphone amp- all with respectful performance in such a small package. Each of these could cost lots of money if bought separately. In that sense, it is a very affordable option particularly for people who rent apartment and might move every few years.
@@jasonkillsformomy Once again... Why you cry? Plenty of alternatives in audio equipment on the market. Stick to your buget and you'll find something that sounds very good.
I love the honesty, Paul! No amplifier will ever sound as good as the one you build yourself though. And don't forget some 6 figure interconnect cables!
Price is relative to age of equipment and availability. I agree with Paul, good quality speakers with high efficiency will play out well even if the amplifier isn't matching the requirements for optimal speaker performance, but at low volume the amplifier and the speakers will be in harmony. Purchasing used equipment in good condition, amplifiers and loudspeakers that once new were in the thousands of dollars can be found for next to nothing. I've bought used equipment, Tannoy Dual Concentric loudspeakers and a couple of Denon amplifiers and AVRs, I am very happy with the outcome. Do some research and have fun in the process
Why do you state the Sprout's 4 ohm spec instead of the usual 8 ohm spec we use in the hi-fi community? Only dodgy companies do that. Besides, we are not Bose customers you know. We do know a thing or two about specs.
What in the world are you even talking about?! From what Ive heard... 4ohm speakers tend to be more sought after, in the Audiophile world. It takes a lot more power and control, to drive 4 ohm loads... and many moderns amps, are not capable of pushing them... without burning out.
@@johndough8115 I'm not talking about speakers. I'm talking about amps and how we describe them. No one states the 4 ohm rating of an amp unless they have just stated the 8 ohm rating of that amp. And when someone only gives one figure, like saying this is a 400 watt amp, it is generally understood that they are talking about the 8 ohm rating of the amp. To demonstrate how deceptive what Paul just said was about the Sprout, in the PS Audio website, when they talk about the BHK amps rating, they say the following: "the BHK 300 Signature 300 watt Monoblock power amplifiers", which is the 8 ohm rating of the amp. This is what you would expect from a hifi manufacturer. But when they talk about the Sprout, they say the following: "100 WATTS PER CHANNEL POWER AMP" when in fact this is only the 4 ohm rating of the amp. It is only rated at 50 watts at 8 ohms. This is not standard practice. This is what you would expect from an Amazon amp seller trying to sell what they describe as 800 watt amps, only to find out that that is the 4 ohm rating of the amp, and sometimes even the 2 ohm rating.
You can get 500$ integrated amps and they will sound great but the build quality won't be supreme and there are only a few on the market but in the price range of 1000$ - 3000$ you can find some really, really great amps and every amp will sound differente. If you buy some really good speakers and you will use a bad, cheap amp, your good speakers will sound bad. You will hear the quality of the amp. I had some B&W 804 ond a Marantz PM7003. That was a 500$ amp and the B&W sounded really bad. It doesn't matter wich speaker I bought, it sounded bad! speakers= 2000$+ amp= 2000$+ DAC= 300$+ cable= well, cheap looks cheap. expensive looks expensive. my actual system: B&W 702 S2 Buchardt I150 Bluesound Node 2 Audioquest and Viablue cables Arendal Sound 1963 1V Subwoofer This setup costs around 10.000$! A 20.000$ or 50.000$ system will sound different and probably better but not much. The most important thing are the room modes. You can buy a 100.000$ system an it will sound bad in a bad room and a cheap system can sound great in a perfect room. most imprtant: 1. speakers 2. amp 3. DAC 4. subwoofer 5. cable Klipsch RF7 sound great and they are cheap
Sounds more like you have a defective amp, than anything else. I have a 30yr old Pioneer amp, that has no problem driving Audiophile grade speakers... and pushing out dynamics, details, and an insane 3d soundstage, that have to be heard, to be believed. Klipsch are overpriced Garbage
I use 702 s2 as well, paired with Hegel h190 and Arendal 1723 1s subwoofer, really Nice once you got everything right i think my souce is weak point, a sonos connect streamer
@@andreasmoller9798 a lot of people are hyping the Node 2 but it is not perfect. Sometimes the app drives me crazy. It's a streamer! If you like the sonos, than just stick with it!
When I was in school, some 15 years ago, we had a few weeks where parents, relatives, friends, etc. where explaining their professions/jobs. There was one guy working as a sound engineer. He told us: "A lot of people make one mistake. They buy expensive amplifiers, CD and cassette players and have no money left for speakers. Take your cheap Aldi (a Supermarket, if you might not know this) amplifier/Hifi-system and put some good quality speakers to it. Much better in terms of quality and money spent than buying an expensive amplifier and taking the Aldi speakers."
Definitely
Love aldi btw
I think that the cheaper and amp is the better it sounds.
I'm from South Africa too and what really kills us here is the exchange rate. So as much as the audiophiles in this county would love to purchase high-end equipment, the price plays a huge factor in our buying decisions. but I like your advice Paul, good quality speakers are the way to go.
👍
And shipping delivery costs for us in NZ: (
I also stay in South Africa so I feel your pain.For a decent set of speakers you are looking at R40K and them up from there.
There is *no* YO in Johannesburg!! It's; jow - ha - nuhs - brg
A related question might be - Could a cheap audio system actually sound worse, if you upgrade the speakers but not the amplifier and source equipment? In a few cases, this might happen. For example, if the amp and source sounded so bad that they needed cheap speakers to muffle their worst traits, then detail-revealing speakers might create a harsh-sounding system.
Or if the speakers needed vast amounts of power (current) to sound good, an underpowered amp might work better with cheaper speakers - IF the cheaper speakers were efficient enough for that cheap amp. Otherwise, I'd say Paul is right (as usual) but there could be some rare exceptions.
As always an honest an informative answer/response. I love that someone who earns his living selling high end audio equipment mentioned diminishing returns. A Camaro performs pretty well and is a fast car that will get you from point a to point b. However a Porsche performs better and will get you there in a lot more style. If you value that performance increase and have the budget to support your desire for better performance it's well worth the price increase.
Great comparison! People with a Porsche also get a lot of envy and hate for being a car enthousiast
So long as your new speakers are not a pain to drive, as in a crazy impedance curve, or a higher than 'normal' amount of power to 'wake them up'
Sometimes designers of expensive speakers assume you have an amp that can easily drive two ohm loads with heaps of power etc., demands not usually made by lesser speakers.
Been there, done that. My Martin Logan`s sucked the life out of my cheap amp. Went into protection mode after 4 songs or so at moderate volumes. Got a better amp, even though 10w/chan less than the cheap amp, problem solved.
It's not going to work well, the better your speakers, the more you will hear deficiencies in your amps and sources, there's no real way around this problem
excellent point
good amps make some cheap speakers scale huge!
as one proceeds upwards on the musical scale of audio reproduction, the rule of diminishing returns certainly applies. there's nothing fundamentally wrong w/ chasing improvements that will increase in cost exponentially as one seeks nirvana.
another important rule as one gets to the exponential / diminishing arena; "the increasing importance of the smaller difference". human sensing & cognition is (obviously) complex... & it presents bias; humans are not so accurate at making absolutistic determinations, yet are very well-tuned to making comparisons (evolution, man!), and are also highly trainable. the issue we do not adequately credit is as powerfully egocentric creatures w/ relatively passable minds, we conflate our personal assessment of "best-among-alternatives" with "absolute perfection".
humans seek goals through upbringing/ education, experience, and idealism {this last may partly explain extremist tendencies in general... individuality can drive genius or insanity... in extremis it may lead to enlightened civilization, violence, crazy religions, excellent audio components, fine art & music, or even bad manners}. our being imperfect analog processors, person-to-person / case-to-case we vary in performance when perceiving the natural & created world. this is why the Quants & Quals contend, why there is a high end audiophile culture & marketplace, and why the contention generates heat along with some occasional light. it also reminds us why experts point out the importance of how one's sound system must be understood as a System. & finally, to the simple guidance (esp in audio, where is doesn't lead to actual war); "whatever makes you happy".
Excellent answer Paul. I agree 100%. I learned this in 1979 with installing car stereos. Speakers make the biggest difference. The $80 Aiyima A07 amp is good for $2000 speakers but don't forget a good dac like the $110 SMSL Sanskrit 2. The Sprout is a good choice. I decided on a 100 wpc class a/b amp on sale for $300 and a preamp for $220 (Emotiva and Schiit). The preamp doubles as an amp for my planar magnetic headphones.
Usually the degree of improvement you are seeking from the amp or gear still gets expensive if the speakers are really really good because those higher end speakers will bring out the short falls of the lesser amp or gear. But you could always go used with great gear, save money, and have your cake and eat it too. 👍
Agree. I had to put my Wharfedales with a cheap stand-in amp, when my main amp faulted. Didn't work out - something wrong. Got around to replacing the faulted amp a few years later with a proper job - and gosh was there a difference! The Wharfes have a difficult impedance dip - the cheapo amp didn't like it. The good replacement amp did cope. The cheapo put in a slight distortion - it was there and once you'ld heard it, your ear was tuned into it :(
For those on a budget, the performance you get from an Emotiva amp for the price is damn near unbeatable in my opinion.
I have yet to hear an Emotiva amp, but those who have told me not only do they sound great and tend to punch above their price, but the customer service (which I have experienced myself as well) is real good from the Emotiva folks.
@@ericelliott227 That doesnt imply PS Audio dont drive a hard bargain for their amps, I would consider them a next step up after Emotiva
@@AllboroLCD Personally, I really would not consider the PS Audio Sprout a step up from Emotiva. For the price point and being somewhat familiar, I think the Sprout would be more of a lateral move actually, if anything. As for the Stellar line and the like, there is some stiff competition out there in amps.
ANYTHING from Emotiva is probably going to be best price to performance in its class. Their speakers (despite recant price hike) are amazing for the price
Important to consider the speakers efficiency. If you have a cheap ie low power to, amp and inefficient speakers you'll not be happy and end up clipping when you go for volume. Better amps the better the speakers can reveal their potential. Old rule of thumb is spend a 1/3 0n speakers, source and amps. For one source.
"Do I need an expensive amplifier?"
*Evil laugh*
Sprout is 100w per channel @4ohm.
I appreciate your thoughtful and helpful response. Quite the opposite from nutcase uber audiophiles who will tell you that the most important thing is thousand dollar fuses.
I’m sorry I have always disagreed with this philosophy and recommendation. I strongly feel it’s more important to buy better electronics as the detail comes from the equipment and source. Speakers can only reproduce what they are given. There is some excellent sounding budget speakers and if coupled with good equipment that can reveal the detail in the music you would be shocked how good even budget speakers can sound. If you go with the other approach you will end up with poor sounding expensive speakers. Sorry completely disagree.
Not in my experience,but what is being said here is start with the speakers and work from that.The speakers are the window to the system and you will be able to judge better what the amp is doing with better speakers.If you can afford to upgrade everything at once well good for you,not all of us can afford that though.
@@spandel100 well I agree that your best with starting with speakers and then matching the electronics that will both power the speakers properly and compliment them sonically, BUT I completely disagree that more emphasis should be put more on the speakers then the electronics. Not to say speakers are not important BUT if you spend to much on speakers then you will not hear there potential or even get decent sound if your now stuck with coupling them with mediocre equipment. When you understand that the detail in the music comes from the source and equipment then even modest priced speakers will clearly out perform your expensive speakers you invested a majority of your budget in. The majority of people think like Paul here and then wonder why their system is un involving. Now certainly if your understand you will be upgrading as you go then sure buy the best speakers that you can at time knowing your going to need to upgrade the equipment to bring out the full potential of what the speakers can provide. But understanding what role each part of the system plays is critical in designing a good sounding system.
You are 1000% Wrong (Unless the amp is so bad, that you are getting loud hissing noises, when its not even getting a signal). Typical stereo amps, put out very clean and dynamic audio. Even many cheap Integrated amps, and or Boom Boxes, can produce very high resolution audio output.
That same thing cant be said about cheap speakers. No matter how good of an audio source that you feed them... if they are unable to replicate them without distortions (due to poor design, low power magnets, low power voice coils..etc)... then all of those details will be completely gone.
Its like trying to compare a singer that can only sing in a single Octave... vs... Mariah Carey, that is said to have an 8 octave vocal range. If you ask the Single Octave singer to try to replicate Mariah's vocals... they wont be able to do it. Their voice is simply not capable of it... no matter how hard they try.
I use an old Pioneer 5.1 surround sound amp, thats like 32 yrs old. I bought it new, when I was 16yrs old... for probably around $450 (memory could be wrong, but I know that it, the speaker wire, and the laserdisc player I bought with it, were under 1k).
For many years, I used them with 90s era Technique 3-way 200watt capable speakers. I always thought they sounded decent... until I eventually bought some audiophile grade headphones. That revealed how much detail that those speakers were unable to produce... and how badly they colored and distorted the sound...
Not long afterwards... I found some used 70s era Audiophile grade speakers (EPI 100v). They were like a third of the size of the techs, but Probably 3x the weight of them. These things completely DESTROYED my Techniques speakers, in every way possible. I was hearing things in old music, that I had never been able to hear before... such as fuzzy lyrics of the singer.. that were now crystal clear. The amp always had the ability to push out all of that detail. It was the speakers that were incapable of playing, without distorting it to hell.
Mind you... I am a speaker-holic. In total, Ive probably owned over 30 different speakers. Sadly... none of them were Audiophile grade... and none came even close to the old EPI speakers.
The fact is, amp technology is very simple... and was perfected far far long ago. It does not take much, to create and maintain a clean, dynamic, amplification of the original input. Where as poor quality speaker drivers that cut corners... are in the Mass Majority.
Beginning in the 80s, speakers started to go ECO. They used lower magnet strengths on the woofers, with lower voice coil strength. They added bass ports, which allowed these lower powered ECO woofers, to be able to put out enough volume... though, it was at the expense of not having enough control... as well as artificial sounding bass, and other port-noise based distortions. Things have only gotten worse and worse for the general store purchasable Speakers, as time went on.
So, IMO, you likely have never heard a real Audiophile grade speaker in your life... to be saying useless and incorrect such Drivel. And or, you were trying to power your speakers with a $3 amp from an AM Radio. >_
I totally agree with you, right or wrong I don’t know.
I have a pair of Klipsch RF 62’s that I like but I’m slowly upgrading and I chose to go in what some think is the wrong way.
I’m convinced that my speakers can shine with better equipment so therefore I’ve started with a new power amplifier, using my receivers pre-out and next step is a new preamplifier with a dac.
After that it will be new speakers.
I’ve already demoed my goal-system and this is a part of that journey 😅
I have Jamos. . . what has become of my life?
Kevin, better speakers will reveal more of what is good, and what is bad, with all of your gear.
If you are purchasing the speakers from a local store, schedule with the store a time for you to bring in your integrated amplifier, and connect it to the speakers that are in the store.
Ideally, you should borrow the speakers, to demo them in your home.
Absent that option, I recommend bringing all of your gear to the store, and connect it to the new speakers. The room will be different (and that matters). But you will get a good idea of whether or not you like it. Also bring whatever songs you are familiar with. Do not play the store's version of the song titles, as the sound quality might differ if the songs come from different releases.
Of course, if the store has the same song, and they know that their version has better sound quality, then give it a listen (it will convey more of what the stereo can do).
Absent that, listen to what you know, as that will be what you will be normally playing in your home. You should not introduce additional variables into the equation.
The only change in your listening session should be the speakers (and the room, if necessary to listen at the store).
I rejected that strategy long ago as audio magazine fantasy stuff, because no mater how much fawning conversation is chewed over, at the end of the day, I am still talking to a guy with only one or two products that might fit my needs, in a world swarming with fine products.
with a "salon" I would be paying for way too much overhead for my little budget. Even back when audio "salons" were a heck of a lot more popular, I was more comfortable doing research than depending on a salesperson with only one or two products that might fit my needs, and often knows how to sell better than the product, where I often knew more, since forming a buying decision brought me to the store, er, audio salon, in the first place. Given how human hearing works , it would be hard to form a valid conclusion anyway in such circumstances , because of a little thing called the "white coat effect"
As a matter of fact , one well recognized audio writer was bragging about this effect on UA-cam recently , whither he knows it or not ,or even cares beyond his self promoting desired results. He states he attends audio meets with a lacquer pressing and always gets raves all around about the impressive sound of his ultra rare formatted record. In contrast, companies pressing records take great care to rush the lacquer pressings from the same stage of record making quickly into processing, as they know that lacquer degrades quickly on the top frequencies with just the passing of time, and certainly without repeated playings. only one approach can be right, yet both hear great sound within their respective realities, and both pay the bills from the results of their chosen use of a lacquer pressing or pressings.
@@richardelliott8352 Before I purchase a car, I take it for a drive.
Before I purchase a TV, I look at its picture.
Before I purchase stereo gear, I listen to it.
I reject those that reject the above.
If my own ears tell me that I do not care for the sound, then I do not care about any proclaimed "effects". I will pass on what I do not care to hear.
If my own ears tell me that I love the sound, then I do not care about any proclaimed "effects". I will purchase that equipment, budget permitting.
I do not see the relevance of your "lacquer" story. When I shop for audio gear, how does that anonymous person's lacquer operations factor into what I hear on the candidates I am considering for a purchase?
@@richardelliott8352 How do you get all that from reading his post? The whole point of taking the trouble to listen to speakers with your equipment is so you don't have to rely on someone else's opinion.
"Given how human hearing works , it would be hard to form a valid conclusion anyway in such circumstances , because of a little thing called the "white coat effect" "
You won't take advice on audio components from the people who work with them every day, but its OK to trust a reviewer's psych diagnosis? When you think for yourself, you make your own mistakes. When you let someone think for you, they make mistakes for you. Make your own mistakes.
@@NoEgg4u That's the sensible approach to take. I have yet to come across another commercial enterprise that markets products that come with such an extensive quantity of snake oil than in the HiFi trade. Have you tried auditioning studio derived products? I was turned off by the marketing nonsense of HiFi brands and went the studio route for the last system I purchased and I got a system that was great value for money. In particular the sound quality of active speakers surprised me and as an example if you read reviews of the ATC SCM 40 speakers there are two versions of it one passive and the other active and reviewers almost always recommend the active versions irrespective of the price of the amps powering the passive version.
@@markgallagher5908 I have a pair of AR Powered Partners speakers that I have been using with various computers over the decades (I believe that I purchased these speakers in 1993). They are not the last word in sonic performance. But I have never needed to replace them. They sound very good.
So, yes, powered speakers are a great option. But you are committing yourself to their included, built-in amps. No upgrade path.
I think that I spent $225 on my speakers in 1993 (which, adjusted for inflation, is roughly $450, today). So not terribly expensive. And I am sure that for $450, today, better sound can be had.
If the active version of the ATC SCM 40 speakers always sound better than their passive version, it means that the manufacturer worked hard on finding electronics that were a great match for those speakers. So you would be hard-pressed to find other electronics, at the same price of the speaker's included electronics, to sound better.
As to "irrespective of the price of the amps powering the passive version", those reviews are probably not using the right pre-amps and amps. Some speakers are finicky with which electronics make them sound good. Price will not always dictate a great match. But there are probably some very good choices for the passive version. It is just a matter of identifying those amps, and at the right price point. But that is not easy to accomplish.
If the active version sounds great, then it is probably not worth the effort to find amps for the passive version that sound better and in the proper price range.
As to snake oil...
It is usually easy to identify. Stay away from those sellers. Buy only what you have heard with your own ears. Or, if that is not an option, then buy only what you can return. Or, if that is not an option, buy only that which has gotten great reviews from reputable reviewers. If you watch enough videos, and read enough articles, you will learn who the BS artists are, and who the reputable reviewers are.
I am fortunate to have a few high-end stores within an hour's driving distance -- one of which has systems that really sound great (the owner has a great ear and knows how to set things up and match components). So I have a great resource for hearing for myself various systems. I know that no snake oil is involved, based on how great those systems sound.
There are many hi-fi brands that are the real deal. But it is easy to lose faith if you do not know about them and get burned.
You can piece together really great sounding gear, without breaking the bank, when you know the right people and the right brands. Make the right choices, and a $3,000 system will sound better than a $9,000 system.
I have heard some wildly expensive systems that grinded on my nerves. I would rather listen to my AR Powered Partners than some $100,000+ systems that I have heard.
I have heard entry level systems that sound great, all the way up to "money-no-object" systems that are amazing. My point being that it is not all snake oil. And like buying a used car, you have to do your homework and keep your guard up.
I would say that an amp can make a big difference. We usually Yo-Yo with system upgrades. The I upgraded speakers and then made 3 amp upgrades. Going from an integrated amp to tube monos and then 2 different solid state stereo amps.
I recently upgraded from my classe delta separates to Dan D’Agostino momentum M400 monos and the Momentum HD pre. They are paired with a pair of Rockport Atria II which are very resolving. The issue is now that the front end is over 3x what the speakers cost (I did not pay that for the D’Agostino). The upside is I have my forever amps now, but have that itch to upgrade speakers. 😊
I have always thought a middle quality amp will be most cost effective and put your money in speakers… Speakers are the weak link…. And PS Audio integrated amp is perfect example…
$800 for a Sprout 100 is supposed to be inexpensive???
Obviously, it depends on one's income.
Compare that to PS Audio's new BHK 600-watt mono block amps, and yeah, it's hell-a cheap, LOL!
Everything matters,
Enjoy the jerney kiddo...
Regards Antony Warrington England...
If you have experience and are somewhat a person of means, I say getting a GREAT amp is the best foundation. It will make $600 speakers sound 3 times what they’re worth, but also work perfectly well with a $3k pair of speakers. I have so enjoyed hearing KEF 150’s and Maggie LRS’s do the impossible, scaling up to the stratosphere…all because of that Pass amp. 👍
If money is no longer enough for more expensive amplifiers, then a simple amplifier is better than just looking at the speakers.
From my personal experience which is not a lot, I have heard mediocre speakers sound really good with high quality amplification. I have heard Hi-Fi speakers sound horrible with poor amplification. But you don't have to spend thousands of dollars for decent quality amplification. Hard to drive speakers require a quality source. Most speakers are eight ohm and are driven fairly easily. I have been wanting to upgrade for 6 years but cannot make myself pull the trigger. My Onkyo tx8511 has been a Workhorse and 100% trouble free. The only time I want to upgrade is when I read other reviews on Hi-Fi equipment. But when I am listening to my stereo I hardly ever get the itch to upgrade.
Paul does not talk about the watts of the amp vs. efficiency of the speaker vs. how loud in dB a person wants to listen. If the Sprout puts out a 100w a side, into a 90 dB+ efficient speaker and the listener does not listen much above 80 dB, the 100 w will easily take care of peak passages.
Return On Investment is the usual term - and the returns diminish as you spend more and more on a system. Spend the first upgrade money wisely and on the part that gains you most ROI - the speakers will usually yield the most obvious improvement or difference in a system, so that's where to start.
I'm one of these people who's jumped on the new wave of cheap Chinese Texas Instruments 3255 class D amps! I'm on disability so it's all I can afford, but my Aiyima A07 with discreet op amps installed in it sounds a heck of a lot better than the old surround receivers I was using before! I would love a better amp but even a 'cheap' mainstream amp would be way out of my price range. It sounds amazing to my ears so I'm content with it.
So its kind of like squeezing juice from an orange, there’s only so much juice you can get no matter how hard you squeeze.
Forget speakers and amps and take a second mortgage on your house and buy the most expensive cables.
First spend all your money on audiophile cable lifters and then some day sell your car and buy your cables to fit into them nicely. Then start imagining how you can save the US$200,000 to buy the rest to match your first investments 😃
Hahaha right?
What do you have against people that have the means to buy the most expensive cables, preamps, amps, DACs, speakers etc.? Are they any different than the people that have the means to buy $200,000 dollar cars or a 1.5-million-dollar home? Are the companies that make these products bad? Should they be put out of business? Or should each individual spend their money on what they want weather you think it's a bad idea or not?
@@Mark-lq3sb Cars and houses are not snake oil. Car manufacturers don't claim that you can fly with their products to the moon and back. And with only one tank of gas at that. Companies designing, building or selling a house doesn't claim that it's a teleportating Dracula castle. If they did they would be sued to liquidation. The claims most audiofool manufacturers, dealers and "reviewers"make are ludicrous and people who believe them should be locked up in the looney bin. Common sense is a rare thing in the audiofool world.
"There's a sucker born every minute"
"A fool and his money are soon parted"
And a super panel of dedicated plugs LOL
Couldn't be arsed to look at all the permutuations for upgrading the interconnects ,Speakers with matching up an amp, and what speaker cabelling to get...not only that but what quality crossovers are in the speaker cabinets...ended up just getting a pair of Kef LSX 2 powered speakers instead.No Crossover (done in DSP) matched up built in class d Amps , No speaker cabling , streamer or Dacs needed !
I haven't heard the KEF's but powered speakers in general represent great value for money although manufactures would rather you but separates instead.
Once you find the sound signature you like regrading the speakers. you then need to look into your amp and ask can this amp drive the load? some speakers dip to 4ohms and below does your amp have the current to drive them and how about the sensitivity to drive them to the listening levels without the amp clipping or distorting. also does the sound signature match what your amp puts out? if your speakers are on the bright side doubt you want a bright amp and so forth. But yes speakers first provided you can also afford the amp it takes to drive them.
Hi I AM AN OLD SCHOOL INDIAN SOUND ENGINEER FROM 1980s,GOT A DIPLAMO FROM SINGAPORE CHINESE TEACHER, WHAT IS CHEAP,AND EXPENSIVE, THE QUALITY OF ELECTRONIC COMPONENT USED MAKES THE DIFFERENS,AMPS NEED GOOD ELECTRIC POWER TRANSFORMERS,220V STEP DOWN TO 12v,24v,, DC.,which should not make any humming SOUND, NOW CHINESE ARE MAKING CHEAP SOUND SYSTEM, SPEAKERS, we INDIAN'S cannot make it localy pity us,💯💥💥💥💥💥
Cost and musical performance do not always correspond. The rules are therefore there to be broken if you buy the right gear. I have driven a pair of expensive Kef 107 Reference and Naim SBL loudspeakers, using a small NAD 3020b integrated amplifier with very satisfying results. However the garbage in, garbage out maxim still applies.
Mr. McGowan is simply wrong here, as before. The fundamenteal mistake he always makes is the idea that the performance of the loudspeakers is determined mainly by the properties of the loudspeaker. But the loudspeaker does not make music on its own: it is driven -"told what to do"- by the amplifier. So a good amplifier is essential for a good result. Furthermore, the result is compromised by the acoustics of the room. Investing in acoustics usually will yield more than in more expensive (better of "better") loudspeakers.
Big manufacturers like Focal, Dynaudio and such make fairly good affordable loudspeakers. How good it will sound, depends on the amplification and the room. Big, high end, demanding loudspeakers combined with a mediocre amplifier will never sound good. It works the other way around: the loudspeaker will let you hear very well what is not good about the rest of the system! So always start with a high quality, reasonably high powered amplifier.
In this country, people tend to buy big floorstanders for too small a room and drive these with insufficient amplifiers. It is a disaster, really. Many are disappointed and seduced to buy even bigger, more expensive loudspeakers, which will only makes things worse. Mr. McGowan makes things worse with a wrong advice.
Does it make sense to connect cheap amps and electronics to expensive speakers?
NO, OF CORSE IS DOES NOT, MORON!
The guy from the question comes from South Africa. Do you think they can afford an expensive speaker or amp? He wants to know if he can get an acceptable sound with available products.
I tryed (and will be trying) different amps and sources with my speakers and when I bought really good source I can tell that cheap chinese D amp does not make such problem as bad source does, even with good amp. Because if source is bad even best amplifier has nothing to amplify.
"the amount of noticable good difference gets smaller and smaller the more you spend past average". Oh yeah your described it better eventually!
Figure out how much you're willing to spend for both. Spend 50% on a pair you like the sound of in the store with the stipulation that you can try out four or five different amps at home to find the one that works best. You will know.
Start with good speakers and upgrade the amplifier later --- IF you will really get a benefit from that.
This is on the assumption the cheap amp can drive the expensive speakers without overheating or clipping.
I did that when I started in higher end audio. had a cheap philips midi system, and blew a speaker, so bought new speakers, quality ones, then eventually replacing that amp, and so on...
i look at as, the amps have the least change on the signal. so the greater perception in improvement would come from speakers first. but when u get good speakers, its only so much u can get by upgrading, so the next step is better amps. then when u get good amps, then u will see a bigger improvement by better speakers. so u walk ur way up.
The amplifier is the “backbone” of your system. With speakers, it’s the efficiency of speakers. The term “Cheap” has a whole lot of definitions in the audio world with people.
Some people will call an amplifier “Cheap” because a knob doesn’t feel right to their expectations when turning it. You hear this all the time with audio reviewers on UA-cam crying and whining about a knob on the amplifier.
It’s the components inside that amplifier and who makes those components that count. Not necessarily who assembled it.
Pricing markups are another key factor.
Markups can be as much as 70%. That is why you see sales marked down to 50 to 60% on sale. That’s a red flag. That is when you know you are getting into cheap internal components categories.
For many people such products work fine for them for what they are using it for. For instance a new Sony receiver at BestBuy for $119.00. Works great for them, that is why it’s a popular item at that price point. The term “Cheap” has a different definition to different people.
I agree. Under $500 is cheap to me.
@@johnloupis2347
People that are strictly streaming only from their phone/tablet have lots of good system choices to choose from today.
Just an amplifier and two speakers, maybe a sub.
With a Direct cable connection from the phone/tablet to the amplifier. Today’s phones/tablets have all the codec’s built into them. Simple all digital setup, plug and play. Now you have Global access to music/artists 24/365. You can use UA-cam discovery to cross reference over to other streaming services.
Shazam to identify songs/artists for cross referencing.
Yup. My Pioneer Elite m10x power amp $400 in it's day, has ok build quality, but sounds phenomenal. It can hold it's own against almost any amp out there.
@@jman8368 Right... It makes me wonder if we have just about hit the peak as far as the best of the best equipment. Speakers may have a way to go still.
@@johnloupis2347
I don’t have an answer for that question.
Nano Technology is still evolving, we are not there yet 100%. Scientists are now talking about data information stored at the molecular level on molecules. It would make super computers used today seem SLOW.
Maybe some day we won’t have speakers as we know them today. Audio will be sent on a molecular level though the air by some magical technology we don’t know yet.
Can we someday restore our hearing artificially with some new advanced technology we don’t have today..??
I Don’t know, just have to live longer to find out..LOL
Given the current coarse of history as we see it right now. I cannot imagine what it will be like 100/200 years from now.
We might be extinct by then. LOL.
Is it 100 watts RMS at 20 to 20K ? or 100 watts peak at 1khz ?
Great advice to all audio enthusiasts.
I would encourage the gentleman who asked the question to also assess his listening space and the speakers' position within it. Sometimes just little tweaks to positioning make all the difference between hard and flat vs deep and invisible. You can spend all the money you want on amps, but if the room isn't thought out...
Start with the SPROUT…and your audiophile journey begins…ENJOY THE RIDE 🤗
Just get a used Pass Labs…if you can find one. I adore my X150.5. Works supremely well with Maggies and also has 16 watts of class A for higher efficiency speakers. Covers all bases.
I guess it really depends on what you consider "cheap." I can't count the number of customers I've had that would purchase $10k+ speakers and then have no budget for a proper amplifier and they would end up ruining their high end (and expensive!) speakers due to distortion by under-powering them and clipping...
If you're buying a full system in one go, which no one ever really does, then I would agree with the comment to match the amp with the speakers based on your budget. However, if you're buying your first components and plan to upgrade later, I always tell customers to buy the amp they really want someday first and some cheaper speakers now. You can always "overpower" a speaker without damage and upgrade the speakers later, but you can't really fo the opposite.
In the end, it all comes down to the customer, their needs, and what they plan to do with the system in the future. If you're eventually planning to buy amp and speakers though, I would personally start with the amp, it's incredible how many people don't have an ear for distortion!
A lot of ignorance out here, Paul… Your two minute answers are not helping them.. 🤣
You can call it "ignorance" or people who just want to attack something they can't afford.
Paul,
One thing I most appreciate about about you is your open honesty in a world where there is so much deception.
This is another video that only proves your candor with those who look to you for answers.
I do not have much in the way of earthly treasures,but have enjoyrd my sound over much of my 75 years on this planet; but what I have, to me is the greatest gift I can share..
the times, you have to admit have changed dramatically since we have been young. i, not for sympathy or pity, have cancer, but
I have Kinki EX-M1+ Integrated Amplifier. To me, I think they sound amazing for their price!
As you go up the price curve on speakers, you'll get better sounding speakers. As you go up the price curve on amplifiers, you'll get a bigger price tag.
Get your room right with the existing equipment first and see what that does for you. Sound is about 60% room optimizing placement and 40% equipment. If I had the choice and a limited budget I would focus on amp quality first. If you have crap for amplification then the speaker could be ultra expensive and still sound awful. If you have a great quality amp and a good but not great speaker the sound tends to be much better. Then over time you can upgrade speaker to bigger one in the line of the brand or change brands. Also a little tip is your local audio store sometimes might give deals on floor models. These are items that typically come with the same warranty (ask them) as new but at much better prices.
Start with the best speakers you can afford first! Similar to a car, a high performance engine won't do much with a restrictive muffler.
Upgrade for your own ears but interface between new/old will be DIFFERENT.
Yes, buy the speakers now, add a better amp later. Make sure your source isn’t the limiting factor. By the time you’re done, the speakers will make up a third of the total system cost, and you’ll see how much your enjoyment has increased.
I always answer this question this way: "Improving your speaker eliminates insufficiencies while improving your amp adds magic, so what do you want at this point of your stereo journey?"
You quickly hit the wall of the "law of diminishing returns". There is also the issue of how demanding of a reactive load, it is, that the speakers present to the power amplifier. The more exotic the speaker; the more that this is likely to be a major concern, to you and your wallet :-) Audition the Tannoy active speaker range, from which, there is a couple of affordable options, from which to choose. Neuman also do a range of near-field actives that are not cheap, but are of a reasonable price, and are really well built. Use a simple mixer for the pre-amp :-)
Love your point about law of diminishing returns. Same goes with high performance cars.
Thanks Sir for the info
So could we say that because of diminishing returns we won't get much of an improvement in sound from $5000 to $30000 speakers?
You're better off giving it to charity tbh
Don’t let the wives see this we NEED them expensive amps! 😂
I used to think that amplification quality was no where near as important as high quality speakers. Now I feel that no matter how good your speakers are they are still limited by the quality of the amplification. I wasted too many years believing that original lie. I feel vindicated now that I have the best of both worlds.
I always like to keep my components in the same price neighborhood, My Arcam Amp was $800 and I paired it with a pair of Wharfedale Denton 80's.... Which were released at $800.
🤗NEED IS A FUNNNY WORD 😁 TRUE VERY TRUE 💚💚💚
What are you looking at so serious?
Amir just arrived with all of his test gear.😀
Hmmmm. Not sure I agree with him on this, a long time ago the prevailing wisdom was to spend money on the speakers as they were what you were listening to. Then along came Linn (a UK manufacturer of a high end turntable & arm) who challenged that advice.
Their logic was that whatever signal/information was lost at the source could not be replaced by more expensive components (amplifiers & speakers) later on in the system. This was demonstrated at some of the Hi Fi shows that I attended.
I don’t know what your source is (vinyl or CD) but since the ‘old’ analogue days things have got a whole lot more complex with DACs & interconnects but I think that the general advice would still be the same.
In the end, a ‘balanced’ system that follows those guidelines will, generally, provide a better listening experience.
Exactly.. garbage in, garbage out. Also, this was too general.. “Good, expensive” speakers paired with a “good, inexpensive” amp could be ok or it could be a disaster..
This was definitely not a three minute question; there’s so much more to discuss here !! 👨🏻
From what I recall the advice from one HiFi magazine in the 80's was for the source to be the most expensive part of the system the amp was to cost 50% of the source and the speakers 50% of the amp. That never made sense to me as the speakers make the most difference to sound quality but nowadays I go for powered speakers and a good DAC can be got for $1000 and a reasonable CD transport or streamer can cost the same. In general there are only very small differences in CD transports once you go over $1000 and it's the same with DAC's.
The first part: "no, expensive speakers do not require and expensive amplifier" is correct. That said, "Expensive amplifiers absolutely always perform better" is incorrect.
There are a number of expensive amps out there, not worth anyone's time just as there are a number of inexpensive amps not worth looking at. On the flip side, there are a number of inexpensive amps that punch well above their price (Emotiva, Outlaw, to name a couple). There are also a number of expensive amps that are great if budget allows (Accuphase, Parasound, Prima Luna, to name a few).
*The PS Audio Sprout is NOT the only inexpensive amp that "sounds great". I know you are obligated to mention it as you should and I have no doubt that it does sound great, but the Sprout is not for everyone. If one is looking for rack size components or needs more than one analog input besides the built-in phono stage (which is not that good), the Sprout comes up well short.
As to diminishing returns: Yes, always keep that in mind!
If the asker is using a cheap modern receiver, then they may well experience a nice upgrade in sonics from the Sprout. If they are using a true vintage receiver though, not so much. Some vintage receivers from the 70s can blast the doors off some of the more expensive amps out there today. That should be no surprise. Some of your finer high end amps come from the vintage receivers and integrated amps and are built in a similar way.
The important thing is matching the speakers to the amp or visa versa. Example: the amp should handle the load or impedance of said speakers (ohm rate = 2,4,6,8) and the timbre or native sound of the amp should work well with said speakers. Example: if the speakers are tilted up or bright, then one should seek out an amp the leans more towards the warm side of neutral.
That is really all there is to it, no need to overthink it.
good question and good answer
This is where I somewhat disagree with Paul. I say somewhat because I actually do agree with his advice to the person asking the question. But my caveat would be to be prepared for the speakers to reveal the worst of your amplifier. You may not enjoy the combination and an upgrade to the amp will be necessary. Whereas if they upgraded the amp it would bring out the best of the speakers . You may enjoy this step more. I agree with Paul's advice here however only because when an opportunity for an upgrade comes up, take it.
Ah, you see, I respectfully disagree. In my experience, it's the speakers that change a system most immediately and noticeably, and if you're on a limited budget I think the way to invest is speakers first. I've heard cheaper systems - like those that come with an integrated amp and speaker set (the mini systems we used to buy back in the 80s) - immediately sound better with a change of speakers, and that gives you the breathing space to build up reserves to spend more on the amp, as and when you can afford to do so. Similarly, I've heard great amps paired with poor speakers, and the amp has no chance of performing well if it's playing through crappy speakers. What I've never heard is a good amp making crappy speakers sound anything other than crappy.
The other key thing to consider is that speakers are the only moveable bit - so if you invest in good floorstanders, or in good standmounters, you have the flexibility to tinker and adjust the set up, and find the right speakers for your room; for my library, for example floorstanders are a no-no, too bassy, too large for the listening space, but a standmount pair with a separate sub is perfect.
@@richardt3371 right, fair points. So my experience is the opposite. I guess the differentiator is the speaker itself. I had an old technics rack system with a cheap integrated. I hooked up a pair of small mordaunt short bookdhelfs and they sounded unlistenable. I hooked them up one time to an audio note / bryston combo, they sounded amazing, you'd think they were worth 10 times the price. This is an extreme example but I've had similar experiences with other combinations. My dcm timeframe t600s, for instance, sound horrible with cheap electronics. I'd be pretty upset if my upgrades took me in that direction and I'd have to live with it for awhile.
@@rig4365 Fair enough - personal experience is the only true measure after all. There's something to be said for matching the quality of components, and also the environment they are in - for example, I can't use floorstands in one of my rooms because they absolutely dominate, but going to the standmounts from the same speaker range with a separate REL sub to pick up the bass, and the system absolutely sings. The amp in both cases was the same, so there's truth in what you say that incorrectly matched speakers within a system can ruin the whole thing. I wouldn't suggest someone pairs the FR30s with a Yamaha amp, but common sense and all that.
However, I'd still spend more time and effort getting the speakers right before looking at the other components, and once I got the speakers right they're the last part of my system that I'll change out.
@@richardt3371 ✌✌
@@rig4365 🖖
Hi,
I have a Panasonic Home Theater HT-995. The amplifier unit is damaged. I want to run the speakers with alternate amplifiers. Pls. suggest me if the following will be compatible or okay. Thanks in advance.
Panasonic-HT995--------
RMS Output Power: Dolby Digital Mode
Front Ch 125 W per channel (3 ≠), 1 kHz, 10 % THD
Surround Ch 125 W per channel (3 ≠), 1 kHz, 10 % THD
Center Ch 250 W per channel (6 ≠), 1 kHz, 10 % THD
Subwoofer Ch 250 W per channel (6 ≠), 100 Hz, 10 % THD
Total RMS Dolby Digital mode power 1000 W
Alternate-01-----------
Sony BDV-E290:
POWER OUTPUT (reference)
Front L/Front R/Surround L/Surround R:125 W (per channel at 3 ohms, 1 kHz)
Center: 250 W (at 6 ohms, 1 kHz)
Subwoofer: 250 W (at 6 ohms, 80 Hz)
Alternate-02----------
Sony- E3100:
POWER OUTPUT (reference)
Front L/Front R/Surround L/Surround R:125 W (per channel at 3 ohms, 1 kHz)
Center:250 W (at 6 ohms, 1 kHz)
Subwoofer:250 W (at 6 ohms, 80 Hz)
Alternate-03--------
Sony-DAV-DZ350:
POWER OUTPUT (reference):
Front L/Front R/Center/Surround L/Surround R: 167 W (per channel at 3 ohms, 1 kHz)
Subwoofer: 165 W (at 3 ohms, 100 Hz)
Imprvment
Sound better is so subjective. Do you want to feel the bass drum in your chest ? Do you want to hear all the details and crispiness ? Do you want that hi fi sound with a round bass and silky highs ?
Better is neutral / linear! If there is bass drum on the record I want to feel it - you clown don't understand the word HiFi especially the fidelity part
@@Harald_Reindl you clown don't know that there isn't a linear speaker in the world even the proacs and the augspurger monitors 😂💖 I was talking about the feeling that you get when listening, you're weird with your linear stuff, is that how you listen ?
@@alexandre7634 surely, that's what room-acoustics combiend with room-eq is for - again: if the intention on the reord is to feel the bass in your chest it has to be so - if it's not a intended it mustn't be so
@@Harald_Reindl This is a laughable argument. If you are playing a song at lower volume levels... no matter what speakers or amps you own... they are not going to THUMP your chest.
Furthermore... you can buy some of the Cheapest speakers, and the cheapest low-quality amps... to get enough powerful bass to blow out your windows.
But Raw Power, is not "Dynamic Fidelity". Just like a Kitchen Knife wielded by the average Joe slasher... is not the same as a Surgeon and their Scalpel.
There are countless Thumpy car stereos, with bass that will shake nearby buildings. Yet, thats basically all that they do. There is no clarity and details, in the rest of the output.
Furthermore... if you actually appreciate every aspect of the drums... then you are not going to get a realistic image of Jazz Drumming, or something like the drums on Rush's song "Tom Sawyer", from those thumpy thumpy car stereo type of systems. Even loud PA concert speakers, are not going to be anywhere near as clean and detailed, as Audiophile grade speakers. (The tend to be harsh, fatiguing, and grating, after only a sort time of listening to these type of "Party Speakers")
@@johndough8115 where did I talk about volume moron - oh and even at low volumes I feel bass because there are devices for it (but that's a different story)
Remember as you age your hearing is likely to deteriorate thereby negating the improvement in sound quality.
I'm getting older. My hearing has become more finicky.
Just an FYI Paul, for the vast majority of Americans $800 isn't an inexpensive amplifier!
Just to be clear are you saying that your more expensive amplifiers sound better than your sprout amplifier?
Who would want to spend 800 hard-earned dollars on an amplifier that isn't the best quality possible?
Just askin for a workin class friend.
Paul has no understanding of what normal people earn and buys.
@@jasonkillsformomy Because Paul addresses Hi End buyers. He tries to be diplomatic but he knows very well that you can't get good sound with little money! I have sound systems at home that cost something but not that much, and I thought they sounded great until I heard some Visaton speakers at a friend's house, Visaton speakers built by him. He bought the kit on the recommendation of some specialists in the field of speakers. He's a sound maniac. And these speakers were amplified by a famous Sony ES amplifier, and although it also had a Rotel amplifier more expensive than Sony, I liked more how it sounded on that Sony! I think my friend was also lucky that his Visaton speakers fit so well with the Sony ES amplifier, because the sound seemed fabulous to me! wowwww what a sound!!! I didn't want to leave the speakers.When I got home and turned on my systems, I didn't like it at all. Whatever settings I tried, I didn't like how it sounded. I sit and think about how it sounds in the test rooms of those from PS Audio! I can't even imagine! Conclusion, you can't get decent sound with little money.
@@sorini75 aww man you have my sympathies 😔
Well, sprout is more than just an amplifier. It has a dac, a preamp, and a headphone amp- all with respectful performance in such a small package. Each of these could cost lots of money if bought separately. In that sense, it is a very affordable option particularly for people who rent apartment and might move every few years.
@@jasonkillsformomy
Once again...
Why you cry? Plenty of alternatives in audio equipment on the market. Stick to your buget and you'll find something that sounds very good.
Paul, I think the phraseology you were searching for is “marginal rate of returns,” as in diminishing marginal rate of returns
I love the honesty, Paul! No amplifier will ever sound as good as the one you build yourself though. And don't forget some 6 figure interconnect cables!
Price is relative to age of equipment and availability. I agree with Paul, good quality speakers with high efficiency will play out well even if the amplifier isn't matching the requirements for optimal speaker performance, but at low volume the amplifier and the speakers will be in harmony. Purchasing used equipment in good condition, amplifiers and loudspeakers that once new were in the thousands of dollars can be found for next to nothing. I've bought used equipment, Tannoy Dual Concentric loudspeakers and a couple of Denon amplifiers and AVRs, I am very happy with the outcome. Do some research and have fun in the process
No good signal/current no good audio, this is the law!
Lighten up Francis.
@@Ineedtotakeabreaksometimes i do
Why do you state the Sprout's 4 ohm spec instead of the usual 8 ohm spec we use in the hi-fi community? Only dodgy companies do that. Besides, we are not Bose customers you know. We do know a thing or two about specs.
Wow, 8ohm spec in the hifi community... Seriously...
Audiophiles usually know nothing
What in the world are you even talking about?! From what Ive heard... 4ohm speakers tend to be more sought after, in the Audiophile world. It takes a lot more power and control, to drive 4 ohm loads... and many moderns amps, are not capable of pushing them... without burning out.
@@johndough8115 I'm not talking about speakers. I'm talking about amps and how we describe them. No one states the 4 ohm rating of an amp unless they have just stated the 8 ohm rating of that amp. And when someone only gives one figure, like saying this is a 400 watt amp, it is generally understood that they are talking about the 8 ohm rating of the amp.
To demonstrate how deceptive what Paul just said was about the Sprout, in the PS Audio website, when they talk about the BHK amps rating, they say the following: "the BHK 300 Signature 300 watt Monoblock power amplifiers", which is the 8 ohm rating of the amp. This is what you would expect from a hifi manufacturer. But when they talk about the Sprout, they say the following: "100 WATTS PER CHANNEL POWER AMP" when in fact this is only the 4 ohm rating of the amp. It is only rated at 50 watts at 8 ohms. This is not standard practice. This is what you would expect from an Amazon amp seller trying to sell what they describe as 800 watt amps, only to find out that that is the 4 ohm rating of the amp, and sometimes even the 2 ohm rating.
You can get 500$ integrated amps and they will sound great but the build quality won't be supreme and there are only a few on the market but in the price range of 1000$ - 3000$ you can find some really, really great amps and every amp will sound differente.
If you buy some really good speakers and you will use a bad, cheap amp, your good speakers will sound bad. You will hear the quality of the amp.
I had some B&W 804 ond a Marantz PM7003. That was a 500$ amp and the B&W sounded really bad. It doesn't matter wich speaker I bought, it sounded bad!
speakers= 2000$+
amp= 2000$+
DAC= 300$+
cable= well, cheap looks cheap. expensive looks expensive.
my actual system:
B&W 702 S2
Buchardt I150
Bluesound Node 2
Audioquest and Viablue cables
Arendal Sound 1963 1V Subwoofer
This setup costs around 10.000$! A 20.000$ or 50.000$ system will sound different and probably better but not much. The most important thing are the room modes.
You can buy a 100.000$ system an it will sound bad in a bad room and a cheap system can sound great in a perfect room.
most imprtant:
1. speakers
2. amp
3. DAC
4. subwoofer
5. cable
Klipsch RF7 sound great and they are cheap
Sounds more like you have a defective amp, than anything else. I have a 30yr old Pioneer amp, that has no problem driving Audiophile grade speakers... and pushing out dynamics, details, and an insane 3d soundstage, that have to be heard, to be believed.
Klipsch are overpriced Garbage
I use 702 s2 as well, paired with Hegel h190 and Arendal 1723 1s subwoofer, really Nice once you got everything right i think my souce is weak point, a sonos connect streamer
@@andreasmoller9798 I thought the H190 has a streamer included?!
@@jamapaza it does but i prefer using a seperate streamer to get a bettter app,
@@andreasmoller9798 a lot of people are hyping the Node 2 but it is not perfect. Sometimes the app drives me crazy. It's a streamer! If you like the sonos, than just stick with it!
Speakers first indeed