You are wrong about speakers
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- Опубліковано 30 січ 2020
- psaudio.com
This theoretical physicist is up in arms over Paul's stance that speakers are the most important elements in the stereo chain. If you want to learn more, grab a copy of Paul's new book, The Audiophile's Guide. www.amazon.com/Audiophiles-Gu... - Наука та технологія
A $300 CD player is far closer to a $3000 CD player than speakers at those same 2 prices are to each other.
Excepting that price doesn't necessarily equate to quality, I agree. 😃
That's an excellent comment 👍
Have you ever had the chance to look at the insides of a $3000 CD player? I'd argue that you could get a *better* CD player for $300 if you buy a lightly used one vs a new one at $3000..
Matt Bonaccio is the $3000 CD player a $300 player with PS Audio tag? 😂
Fat Rat I know they don’t
The hardest job in creating good sound is in turning an electrical signal into pressure waves in the air. It is asking a lot of mechanical, inertial devices to do that job. On the other hand, even cheap amplifiers can do a reasonable job of simply increasing the amplitude of the signal. I have never been able to afford top quality equipment, and over 50 years went through all sorts of combinations, from a home made quadraphonic amp to loudspeaker cabinets with different drive units in left and right. Aaaargh! When I finally had enough money to buy some decent speakers, the sound quality jumped up a mile. Replacing the amplifiers made a much smaller difference. I agree with Paul - if you can, get decent speakers first.
I totally agree!
this is the key reason . its the hardest job , its the most critical to our human brain . when you think of all the mechanical , physical and electronic variables that goes into making a box with vibrating circles sound like a completely different object of size , space , composition its quite impressive we can do what we can do .
Absolutely. The speakers are the final thing delivering the sound to your ears. And like you said, they have the hardest job in the system in accurately trying to convert the signal from the amp.
TOTALLY DISAGREE! If you can, buy equally "decent" recordings and speakers simultaneously; any other road only leads to unthinkable frustration and the awful realization that NEGLIGENT EQUIPMENT CHOICES KILL GOOD MUSIC! Mike D.
The loudspeakers being the greatest source of distortion in an audio system, it is only logical to pay attention and invest money so they won't degrade the signal sent to them.
I agree with you Paul. I hooked up a $1000 DAC to a pair Logitech. Still sounds like crap. Hooked up my $1000 active speakers to the analog out of my PC. Sounds wonderful.
BOOM! Great example.
How about playing an 8 track player playing through a really expensive speakers. Its not going to sound good. Source is number 1 for me
check this out
ua-cam.com/video/o5kRvEEpWIA/v-deo.html
it's one topping mx3 versus two topping MX3s running a split optical signal where one MX3 is playing the left with nothing plugged into the right output and the other driving the right speaker and nothing connected to the right channel as if the two stereo amps are mono blocks.
I was shocked by the gains. it sounds like a thousand dollar power amp for the price of two 40 watt mini amps
also what's crazy is that those 3001SEs EGGs which can be fetched for like 150 a pair depending on the condition sound way better and even bigger than the Q350s, only lacking in low end from about 70 to 50 by 3db but with a sub crossed over at 60hz, the 3001SEs manage to blow the Q350s away doing anything within the range they are capable of in common better. they sound like a more natural LSx
I discovered them on a whim at a local hi fi shop and I can't get over how impressive they are.
@@sean_heisler nope...the example by gigar is not good. Of course crap speakers in the first place will always sound just like that. I don't think anybody would suggest otherwise.
How about if you're on a budget and you had a pair of those entry level speakers by Elac or Klipsch for example fed through a good amp. They would likely better most older speakers double the price even without a good amp. However, give them a good amp and they totally punch way above their weight. This is exactly why the modern train of thought suggests better amps, as the range of 'entry' level speakers is that good you really need to spend significantly more to get appreciable gains.
Sure, in the old days 'entry' level speakers were dodgy at best. Through modern technology, design and production, this simply isn't the case anymore.
Cheers.
Some speakers scale up and others don't.
The real advantage of starting with speakers is that you can clearly hear the next upgrade!
Exactly. Tell that physicist
I think you smacked the nail squarely on the head.
Could not agree more.
You must have a great sense of humor to deal with some of the comments you get . Good video. I agree with you 100%
Hello to everyone!
It's the first time i am writing here, although i am watching the channel long time ago.
First of all, congratulation Mr Paul McGowan, for the way you present the topics , the knowledge, your humor and the explanation you are using so almost anyone can understand!
Regarding the title, i believe ...everything in the hi-fi chain is equal important, the source, the amp, the cables we use and of course the speakers and the space!
We must have a good, clean, informative, rich sound from the beginning and manage to transfer it until the end!!
It is wrong in my opinion to overrate or underestimate one device over anther. And regarding the budget, it is more wise , to spread it across them! One very important thing, it is also the Matching of them. The synergy of our equipment is very important for the final result!
Of course, ....we cannot cover this huge topic in a few lines..so..see you in another episode, until then, enjoy... explore, be happy!
Thanks a lot!
Back in the early 70s, during my Navy days, I wanted the best sounding equipment I could afford. I listened to virtually every speaker brand available to me at the time. Speaker sound quality was my top priority followed by build quality. I still own and love the two pairs of identical speakers I bought so many years ago. (I was one of the few adopters of quadraphonic sound at the time). I still use my antique amplifiers and decoders, and the sound is still great as ever. That was the era of what I call the Watt Wars. People would buy an amp based on how many watts it supposedly put out, not realizing that "music power output" was not the same as RMS output. My speakers are very efficient and it was recommended to not apply more than 60 watts RMS to them. Even so, they can output impressive low frequencies along with remarkable clarity at all frequencies, with half the watts. I once used them for a stage production driving all 4 of them with a stereo amp rated at 35 watts per channel. The production featured a rocket blast off. Amp full volume, bass temporarily cranked to max. for the launch; babies and little kids cried and an elderly lady leaped out of her seat and jumped up and down with excitement. (Each one contains a 15 inch woofer, a couple of midrange, and a couple of tweeters. ) I agree that the weakest link in the system is the speaker, so it deserves the highest priority. The amplifier needs to be chosen to provide the ideal power for the speakers chosen. The music source should be the next consideration. However, a cheap portable mp3 player can sound great if the speakers are great. In the end, it is the quality of what you hear that is important. I have loved good sound for 60 years and listen to all genres of music. The speakers do make the biggest difference!
In a hifi system, the speaker has the greatest influence on the character of your system - this is where you have the greatest opportunity to tune the sound to your taste and listening environment. Improving the rest of the system improves the overall sound quality, whilst still maintaining the original character created by the speakers.
Simon Rae That’s right. But the sad thing is, A lot of these so called “Audiophiles” don’t seem to care about character, it’s just a never ending quest for “accurate reproduction”. These people do not understand music or the music industry. To hell with perfect reproduction, I want my music to sound good. I don’t want to hear every mistake made by the artist, recording team and mastering engineer. I don’t want to hear the flaws in the equipment used in the production. I want a system that makes everything sound great, no matter how much “colour” it needs to add to achieve that
Well...and the room, of course
The room matters more.
I’ve chased the audio rainbow for a long time, and my most profound realization is that it’s all an illusion anyway. The moments of most enjoyment and the moments of greatest frustration are unrelated to the gear. Reproduced sound never sounds quite like the real thing, so just enjoy the music. (this from the guy who has 3 of every component and still wants to believe there is a magic place of perfect reproduction)
A profound statement, and so very true it is. The worst HiFi component is the human ear. Sure, the mind, psyche and brain can compensate to a degree, but we all gravitate toward enjoyment of what we are accustomed to hearing. And a very good speaker will do a very poor job of masking imperfections elsewhere in the chain, _until the listener gets used to it_ . Paul cites camera equipment in his "budget" analogy. In photography, there is a plethora of gearheads and equipment snobs, who will happily explain away their budgets and fabricate excuses for doing so, but it all boils down to technique, implementation, and finally, perception, regardless of equipment costs, ratings, and reviews. Even with live orchestral or acoustic folk performances, we must deal with set, setting, and acoustics, which will ultimately determine mood. There is no way around it - not even with millions of dollars to spend on equipment.
Not at all. Some equipment sucks the life out of music. Others make every song a joy to listen to. I too have chased the audio rainbow and found that simply throwing money at the problem does not give you what you want, and most equipment disappoints me. However I have found a few gems from $15 to $several thousand that give me great joy whenever I listen to them. Perfect reproduction is the illusion because no music is recorded to a universal reference.
I agree to a degree. I once bought cheap speakers for my kitchen, as I don't use it that often so I thought, why not, some cheap 100euro speakers. It ANNOYED the crap out of me. Voices too bright, no low end, flat, it was just poop. Then I bought some slightly more expensive Infinity speakers, more powerfull amp, and the difference was night and day. Good speakers you don't notice, bad speakers you do. My wife doesn't care so much, but I get annoyed easily when hearing a song (or movie, whatever) through a crap system and missing just parts of the song. Like those bluetooth speakers. All of a sudden there is no bass anymore, mids are boosted and the highs are muffled, or there seems to be a gap between drivers. Same with a subwoofer, you miss it when you are used to hearing content with a sub. I won't notice a big difference to be honest between a 2000 EUR speaker and 10.000 EUR, except on high volume or very specific content, but don't waste your time and life listening to crap speakers.
I'd definitely agree that there is no "ultimate" sound. It's never that simple as chasing sound quality. An analogy is that audio is very much like eating food. Everyone knows when the food they order tastes terrible, okay, good and perfect. But enjoyment doesn't always correlate with how great the food tastes, it's a combination of many circumstantial things like atmosphere and even personal cravings. The food doesn't have to taste perfect in order to be enjoyable. So trying to isolate and maximize that single variable can end up just being a fool's errand. If the noise floor of my amp output is ~2dB higher because I didn't spend hundreds of dollars on power filtering gear then it's not like I'm going to die from lack of music enjoyment. Personally I find the real lack of music enjoyment comes from being obsessed with placebo-level details.
Only half agree with the statement above- I've had transcendent moments listening to my car radio, but at this point in my life, having much better gear/setup than I used to have provides all kinds of subtle pleasure (and many times, even greater excitement) than listening to recordings on my gear way back when- and that's DESPITE some contrary influence of 'hedonic treadmill" over time. BTW, art reproductions in a book and photos of old trips of mine are not the real thing, either, but they can truly inspire me- especially if they're better quality reproductions.
I agree with Paul. Here's why. One can't hear the source, can't hear the interconnects, pre and power amps. In the end you can only hear the speakers. The rest will fall into place as trial and error will decide what drives those awesome speakers.
Paul is true to his conviction IMHO.
Being an electronics manufacturer for years he could have easily say the opposite (source and electronics first), in an attempt to boost his business.
The fact that he argues the case for the speakers, (when so far) PS Audio hasn't had any for sale, speaks volumes about his honesty on the subject.
I wonder how many speaker manufacturers would encourage audiophiles to spend more on electronics before they consider speakers?
They have an expensive line of speakers coming out soon.
@@musicman8270
Yes Billy, I know.
He has been saying this though ages ago. Well before they have had any thoughts of manufacturing speakers.
Got to give credit where credit is due!
the never ending story it never ends upgrading if you love music your never happy deep down and always want more
Paul, I agree with you entirely. Get the speakers right and the source can grow into them as funds allow. Nothing beats adding a new source component and realising the untapped potential of your speakers. Happened to me recently when I added an Auralic Aries G2 streamer and all the niggles with my Zingali speakers vanished.
Totally off topic, I just linked to your home theatre tour and was excited to see your picture of Hanging Lake. We used to travel from Scotland to Colorado to ski and always made a point of hiking up to Hanging Lake. Became a favourite place though the trail could be a bit treacherous near the top. The picture brought back great memories. Would love to see it in the summer and if we do will be sure to take a detour to PS Audio for the tour !
Me (a Rotel owner): oof! Didn't see that coming.
OhMyGodMuffins nothing wrong with Rotel, when used with appropriate associated equipment.
Same here. I have a Rotel 1582 mk2 Class A/B 200 Watt Stereo amp paired with Focal Aria 948's. Sounds incredible!
@@manganzon81 hahaha no way! That's my exact set up! What do you use as your Source/Preamp?
Possibly Paul is talking about his experience with older Rotel units? I don't know since I've never had any experience with Rotel.
Ya, easy there Paul ha ha.I'm running a Rotel cd player and a Rotel power amp.
In the days of turntables being "The Source", things were different and a good investment on the turntable and cartridge was essential. Same as a good pair of loudspeakers. Nowadays, when a decent, $200 CD player sounds pretty decent, it's more important to invest to a good pair of loudspeakers because the loudspeakers are the part of the chain with most compromises.
You have given the answer before. Engineering is all about compromises and in a basic system (CD/amplifier/loudspeaker), the transducers and overall design of the loudspeaker contain most of the compromises.
Back in 1981, I purchased my first CD player. A Denon unit. I also purchased a couple of Denon produced CDs. I auditioned the unit using these CDs in a studio of a brick and mortar shop, listening through a pair of B&W 801 loudspeakers. I was totally amazed at the clarity and robustness of the sound. Brought the CD player home and hooked it up to my modest Luxman amplifier and crappy loudspeakers (Avid) and was disgusted.
Well, even misfortunes have a good outcome sometimes and that triggered my lifelong interest in loudspeaker design and turned into a nice hobby.
The electronics portion of a system is the easier to design and build at a price. Loudspeakers are much more difficult. Transducers in general. I can hardly hear the difference between different CD players but definitely can hear the difference between phono cartridges and loudspeakers. I can identify even which digital versions of LPs were made using a Stanton 681EEE-S and an Ortofon MC20MKII. Totally different sound. And I can hear the significant difference between a pair of KEF 105 and 107 that I own.
An amplifier really needs to be crappy to sound bad within it's limits. Same with a CD player - and I can identify a couple of modern DVD/CD players that really sound bad because they were built to a very very low price point.
Garbage in garbage out really is true. Same in audio, same in data processing. But it's a shame to destroy everything at the very last step. Especially when it's the hardest and most expensive to get right.
Totally agree, great post.
Agreed, nice 👍
Great advice. I did exactly that 23 years ago and still have the same speakers but improved everything going into it ( better Amps, etc - psaudio ds dac my most recent upgrade 😀 ) step by step as I had more money and couldn’t be happier.
Interesting discussion again, Paul. As a philosophy professor with a passion for the hard sciences and speaker design and construction, I think the issue is centered on the concept of diminishing economic returns. The range of sonic quality is much greater in speakers than in electronics and, especially cables. Even turntables generally have less variability. Consequently, money invested in speakers have greater results up to a point. It comes down to how one should invest ones money over time. So, well said to everyone!
Totally agree with you Paul. Start with the best speaker you can afford that fits your room.
Saying that many years ago there was a moment when I have no speakers for my 100k+ system. So tried a pair of cheap Kef coda 7 (250usd) speakers on it just for fun. I was amazed how good they sounded
I've had similar experiences- hearing speakers of mine worth 5% of my overall system punching way above their typical weight when briefly switched into my primary system and supported by much greater upstream gear.
I’ve heard it put this way: look for the best quality (usually, but doesn’t always mean the most $$$) and spend your best money in those components that convert the energy and thus information from one medium to another, because that’s where the most can go wrong.
That means loudspeakers (electrical > mechanical) and the phono cartridge (mechanical > electrical).
Then put your good money into the in-between components that will serve those ends to get the best out of them.
Absolutely right IMHO. The transducers are key, because that's the difficult bit.
Screw records. It is 2020 now for crying out loud.
Sage advice, Paul. I've always felt that the bigger outlay in an audio system should go to speakers. IF, if you want the most elaborate components maybe save your lunch money and get all components in one shot. I used to advise friends (in the 1970's) that wanted to upgrade speakers, but keep the same amp, to invest in very good headphones to see what accurate wide range sound is. With phones like Koss/Pro4AAA, Pro4X or AKG-240 you would get a better idea of what to listen for when shopping for your expensive speakers.
I could listen to your arguments all day. Cheers
I have to agree with you Paul. I put my system together back in the late 80's and the philosophy I adhered to was to spend about 40% of my budget on speakers, 30-35% on the amplifier(s) and the rest on source(s). Apart from upgrading my turntable last year (to a Rega P3) I still have my original system and it still sounds great, in fact my power amplifier is the Technics SE A50 with twin mono blocks and I recently bought a second one to finally fulfill a dream and Bi-Amp my system, which I couldn't afford to do at the time.
I wish there were more companies like Paul and PS Audio. Companies that place quality before profit and market share.
Speakers are such a big part of a set, listened to 20+ pairs before i found 'mine', budget restriction of course. Ended up with Monitor audio gx200 gold. Recently upgraded with gaia feet though, which opened up the soundstage even more!
Love this hobby:)
This was an A+ video Paul. Great conversation and explanation. Also, I still like these versions of the AN3 WAY better than the new ones on the forum. My 2 cents.
I agree with the letter that was sent in. Always invest in the best possible source, because all downstream components benefit from that. A superb source can give you fun for years because slowly upgrading interconnects/amps/cables/speakers will reveal its brilliance over time. Oh well... That's the way I play around and base knowledge on during the comparing of components as well.
My favorite experiment was my neighbors setup. He had an all Classé branded Amp, Preamp, and CD player. Nice stuff. He was running some kind of Monitor Audio speakers, the model number escapes me, but this was 20 years ago.
So I ask him if I can substitute a few pieces of my gear in place of his own. Always open to experiments, he agreed. I returned with my tired out Marantz MR220 and my Grandma's early 1994 Panasonic 5 disc CD player.
I omitted his good audio cables and the MIT terminator speaker wires, and we listen to some familiar stuff on his monitor audios.
Up to a certain volume level, where it was apparent the Marantz was beginning to run out of watts, I really couldn't tell a difference.
Damn it! I just hooked up my lil rotel rx-1000 receiver i bought as a kid at a used electronics market in the 90's to some soviet era 3 way speakers haha! It's been gathering dust for over a decade and im loving the experience so far (fully understanding there are things missing from the sound, scratchy potentiometers etc. etc.) But it's still a great experience altogether!
👍👍👍 Well put and so right!
Thanks for standing firm and making a convincing argument for it!
The “GIGA” argument only worked in the pre mature digital era. Cheap turntables are bad and in those days a good system was Linn Lp12 with a modest amp and speakers. Now you can combine a raspberry pi with a Schitt DAC or similar for $150 and use it to stream Tidal and you have a very decent source deserving of $1k + speakers. Either way though, I’ve found the amplifier makes a surprising difference. A mediocre amp can really kill a system.
With an amplifier all you need is the power to create the amount of sound pressure you want. No one can hear the distortion that modern amplifiers make. You can't hear less than 2% distortion. Modern amplifiers are at least 10 times cleaner than that.
a linn tt will still blow modern digital gear out of sight
Good video, enjoying watching your channel from the UK. The two key words you said were budget & balance.
Good job! For those of us who enjoy listening to music and or watch movies. Most of us have to be frugal in our picks, and yet strive for the best sounds possible in that pursuit.
I respect your view Paul this is in absolute terms a supply chain and moreso the room acoustic equally counts in this paradigm
When I was young, my parents owned a mono record player in a case (not a Dansette). The reverb (not a setting - just a by-effect) was utterly divine. I've found nothing close in 45 years.
Agreed all around. I got a chance to listen to a pair of Infinity IRS Betas. Owner was streaming youtube and spotify. Regardless, I'm sitting there completely blown away by the experience. More, anybody could appreciate that. I could not get anybody I know appreciate a flac vs a 360p youtube stream on my basic old Polk speakers, but every one of them would appreciate those Betas regardless.
Thank you for your honesty Paul. I would expect nothing less. Now your philosophy that speakers are the most important part in a high fidelity system is a pretty common. You did also make it a point that everything in the system is important, as we all know your system is only as good as the weakest link.
BUT lol with that said, I am on the other side of that thought process. I am a firm believer ( and not a very popular a philosophy ) that your source and then front end and system is more important in a high fidelity system. The detail comes from the source and equipment side, speakers can only reproduce what they are given. There are large variances in the quality of audio equipment were as there are some exceptional sounding budget speakers.
Depending on your budget if a good portion is spent on your speakers unless you have a good budget you are going to get very ordinary sound when you can buy good enough equipment to bring out there full potential.
Now on the other side, if you buy really good equipment you would be shocked how good it can sound even with budget speakers. There are some outstanding budget speakers, Magnepan, Harbeth for example can with the right equipment sound exceptional. This approach will allow you to hear the full potential from your speakers, will resolve all the detail nearly as much as any statement speaker system can. I own and use a pair of Harbeth 30.1's and they are as good as any speaker I have ever heard. Sure they dont have low bass extension that larger speakers can but what they do reproduce is outstanding.
So I do take the other approach and maybe with my response your flip flop back to the other side lol. Kevin 40 years high end audio video specialist
Paul you nailed it. The delta between a good and bad speaker is greater than a good or bad source.
I think the most succinct way of putting it is that of all the components in the chain the speaker has the most potential to degrade the signal, so best to make sure that's as good as it can be.
My first set up being 5.1, with a very modest budget was a kenwood krf-v5100d-s avr with package speakers and a small subwoofer, that two speakers and subwoofer died after a couple of years, I then bought a speaker package 5.1 Accusound Reference 8.6xd 200w 8ohm 90db bookshelves, centre and a 200w Accusound Reference 8.6xd subwoofer, then atmos sound systems hit the market, I held off buying and saved, then bought my Yamaha RX-A3070, plus another matching kenwood krf-v5100d-s second hand in great condition cheap, that I used one kenwood to power side's/rear's, the other kenwood powering front's/rear's atmos, leaving 3070 to power fronts and centre, so needing more speakers for atmos, I bought 4 x matching Accusound bookshelves for the atmos, second hand in great condition still and very cheap, plus a matching subwoofer, I wanted a pair of good tower fronts, with the coin I had, I bought Polk Signature Series S60's 8ohm 300W 90db, being a good match to my accusounds, my original Accusound sub started making an odd crackling noise, under a 5 year warranty still, I sent the amp from it back, they took their time, I grew inpatient, so I found basX S12's 300w on special, for less than half price delivered, a clearance sale, so I bought 2, then around two weeks after I received them, my accusound sub amp was returned, saying they couldn't find anything wrong with it, then whilst I was checking them and setting them up back into my set up, the crackling sound was still there, so as I looked it over, I'd place my hand on front of the speaker surround with music playing, to feel it had come unstuck flapping away against speaker housing, I glued it back down and it was fine, I wish I had found it prior though, but I wouldn't of bought the basX subs, I'd blown my budget by a fair bit, but I'm extremely happy with it all, so weather you spend up on speakers first or the amp first, it doesn't really matter that much, BECAUSE at the end of the day what really counts, IS THE END RESULTS! . I will say though, if you buy good speakers up front and looked after, they'll last for ages, where as amps/avr's are always changing and being upgraded, channels, power and so on, that good speakers will always support.
On budget:
I have the very first pair of speakers I’ve ever owned (sentimental value)
I have killed (or they have just died from dried caps etc) many more receivers/ integrated amps than I’ve owned speakers.
Paul is right.
Get the best pair of speakers your money can buy and upgrade upstream components as your budget or wife will allow. Far FAR easier to walk into the house with a brand new dac under my arm than a pair of 3-foot tall floor speakers and stands.
Those speakers will serve you well regardless of the signal. When you can afford to, upgrade the garbage. Piece by piece, under your arms.
Well said Paul! Thank you. I happen to have done the very thing you spoke of. Great reasurrence.
I fully agree Paul. On balance, you get more bang for your buck with speaker investments. That said, when listening through my $300/pair desktop Emotiva Airmotive 4 speakers, I can still hear the refinement of my PS Audio Directstream DAC over lesser DACs. Of course, when I move the Directstream back to my main system, I can hear and experience a much more lifelike presentation. Here, on the speaker end the difference is great. On the source end, the differences are real, but of less overall significance to the overall enjoyment. That is unless you hold different audiophile values, where you can make the same argument from a different viewpoint. Different people, different values, different conclusions. You are not wrong, you have a very well reasoned and experienced value system which you explained and defended very well. It is so refreshing to hear these explanations from the head of a company, which allows consumers greater insight into the musical and engineering philosophy of your products.
Can't agree more. More power to you!
I agree with you Paul with the best speakers. This is the only way you can then hear the improvement or not with changing the other parts of the system.
MY experience is very similar to Paul's (although i don't own an audio company, I'm a hobbyist), but i have another thought to add in. I believe electronics (the engineering) has gotten across the board, really good. The conversion process (electrical signal to physical motion) the loudspeaker must perform is maybe the least efficient and most impacted job in the audio chain. Rooms, and other variables greatly impact the loudspeakers job, and the environment is constantly changing (number of people in a room, decor changes, even temperature of the room). I think this is maybe why speakers deserve a bias in a budget, they may just have the hardest job out there.
Paul, You are right! A cousin of mine had a system with B&W 801 matrix3, with the sony ta-n80 es and the pre amplifier that comes with that..he later upgraded to two ta-n80's...He was thinking of selling the speakers..And i told him not to, because i thought they had more in them..And i was right! He later upgraded to a krell ksa i dont know the number but a beast of a amplifier and a chorus pre amplifier...And the speakers sounded like never before, they really came alive and we could experience a whole new level of music..
I had a bit of an accidental experience to support Paul's argument, where I used to use a pair of Dynaudio EMIT-10 bookshelf speakers, and after carefully working on speaker placement, I could have lived happily ever after. I wanted to build a pair of speakers, though, so I put together a pair of GR Research XLS Encore, which with all the upgrades have a comparable price tag to the Dynaudios. I was not prepared for the amount of difference in sound quality I would experience, the Encores are a BIG step up from the Dynaudios but they also change the sound signature to such an extent that the cartridge I had been in love with now sounded a bit too polite and tame. I changed back to the cartridge I had replaced, and I could now hear more of its overall quality, for a combined far superior experience (to my ears). Had I designed my system around the new cartridge, I probably would never have been able to hear what I now hear, which is intense clarity with speed and dynamics, yet sweet and textured in the details and imaging. I thought I had great speakers (for my budget), but little did I know. Get those amazing speakers, and build on it. Try to maybe have good electronics and source on loan for the experience of finding those speakers, so you know what their potential is.
Paul i am 100% with you! Some years ago manolis owner and maker of tune audio speakers(crazy good!) was in a show with his anima speaker(50k) and a 20 euro cd player as source..he really managed to make his point!
When sources were confined to vinyl or tape then getting the best you could afford would help minimise the degradation of the medium with repeated plays. Some of my first jazz LP's were quickly destroyed by playing on a 'radiogram' auto-changer tracking at 13 grams. This was revealed when I bought my first 'hi - fi' components ! . Using Digital sources nullifies this argument. I agree with Paul because if you don't have acceptably revealing speakers then you'll never be able to hear the benefits of upgrading anything further up the chain. As Paul says many times, balance, component synergy is key. Take advice, listen to systems as a whole if you can. I appreciate that's getting harder to do these days.
I agree. Start with excellent speakers. Power with what you can. Then when you go up hierarchy chain of various amps...you get to enjoy your speaker investment through these changes. Although I typically tried different speakers with my marantz 2285b, i realized the pair that I stuck with so far (klipsch forte ii) has blown me away daily for the past 3 years. Its synergy. Synergy is the sweetspot of both sides of the equation working in harmony and creaging an amazing harmonious outcome. I blame my speakers more than my amp for this outcome however. I can anylize thier performance more personally because they are infact the things where the sound is phsyically generated. They have more than proved themselves a great speaker to me. And they have a rabid following for this reason however there are only a few best pairings of amps with these speakers. A synergy that is recognized by multuple groups that begins indeed with the speaker as the base that these systems are built around. Im sure amps and amp fans of a certain brand or make have these same perceptions only the amp is thier base...but if so....i dont near about that as much. I always hear about speakers and what amps go good with them instead of the opposite. And I think the reason this is, because the speakers are usuallt the biggest most visual part. Factor in WAF and your personal tastes for what you want your new musical furniture/decore to look like and how it will be situated in your unique room demensions etc....these have to be factored in. You wouldnt likley get a giant set of klipshorns for your 8×10 listening room. But for an average to large livingroom....it can still matter. The other reason is horns vs cones. So you love the realistic signature unique to horns. And thr same goes for tubes vs cones. Im talking in circles. What gets me is that a physicist wrote thjs and doesnt approach the subject in the same way a philosopher would and it takes a stoner from englewood or a stoner engineer in boulder to understand that nobody is wrong....but that in the world of selling products to people who have opinions....it is generally decided what type and size speakers do you need for your space, then move on from there.
Being patient, wise, and frugal, equals the best bang for the buck.
Also, QUALITY used equipment is a wonderful thing! 😎👍
I agree with you 100% . Also , speaker innovation has hit it's peak . A good pair of speakers will not become obsolete for many years . There is simply nothing coming down the pipeline in regards to technology . Amplification and source components are constantly evolving and most people will take the plunge and make upgrades when these new components become affordable . 50% of your audio budget should go into your loudspeakers . If you choose wisely , you will enjoy them for many , many years .
I built my first system around the speakers, scrimping on the source which meant turntable at that time. Within a year, the turntable was gone, replaced with a high quality table and my first moving coil cartridge. The transducers are the most important part of any system, and both the beginning and end are equal partners.
Currently I am building my HI-FI around my speakers. One of the sonically largest change I have had from my speakers is the turntable and amp combo that I used. The change was night and day.
My UK transmission line coffins from the eighties sound awesome, no matter what amp is hooked to them or what "crappy" mp3 you feed.
Diversity in recording quality adds an extra aspect to our fascinating hobby.
Can’t agree more and don’t forget the acoustics! With inexpensive improvements on your acoustics and speaker setup, your system will sound so much better. More than any upgrade of your system electronics ever will achieve.
I think that you are absolutely right, no matter what you put at the front end, if you have crappy speakers then even with a good expensive front end it will still sounds crappy.. speakers first, after balance it out
You were RIGHT! The answer to the dilemma of where to put the big bucks is simple. All one needs to do is make a crude graph of sonic performance versus $. You know the curves. Plus, later upgrading upstream components is a relatively easy task. New phono preamp may be nothing more than a switch on the turntable and some cable rewiring. But does one do with the 50 # speakers one is upgrading.
Well today most source is streaming and/or digital media on a local hard drive. The only time you are converting energy from one form to another is in the loudspeaker. By definition then the loudspeaker is the most “lossy” component in the chain. Hence focusing the maximum resources to ensure this lossy component is as accurate as possible makes a lot of sense.
All links in the chain are of equal importance but you will usually need to spend more on the speakers to match the quality of the source.
I’m a photographer and always recommend buying the best lenses you can for your first serious camera. You can always upgrade your camera and see just how good your glass is. Yes, speakers are your primary then the upstream stuff.
But if you switch to a body with a different mount, then you have a lot of expensive glass you can't use. I like that there are finally some ways around that these days at least, p mount adapters etc.
Paul I agree with you wholeheartedly!
I would spend between 60-70% on speakers, 25-35% on electronics and the balance on cables, room improvement etc. I have been doing this for over 30 years and I am quite happy with the results.
You could be driving a Mercedes or a BMW that was customised especially for you, but if your tyres are bald, it just wouldn't give you the same pleasure (not that you would spend 65% of your budget on tyres, but those are still the final point of contact with the ground, similarly the speakers are the final interface with your ears)!
It's like the proverbial "last mile connectivity" that makes all the difference!
The guy who wrote you needs to realize that in this day and age the content we hear is pretty high quality!
I’m not an Apple freak, but I think we can thank them for getting us used to having devices with a pretty nice audio output!
I agree after spending years listening and owning different systems, you do gain an understanding and an ear with experience and I agree with Paul and others hands down on this particular point.
I once auditioned a pair of loudspeakers early on in this hobby on equipment costing thousands above and beyond what these particular speakers I was listening too actually cost. I wanted to get the loudspeakers right for me which has saved considerably large amounts of time and money and disappointment. In the final analysis these speakers exposed underperforming on seriously high end source gear and amplification that nearly lost the owner of his particular solan a sale on these particular speakers that I was auditioning and have lived with happily with for nearly 25 years. We both changed out the source gear and amplification to equipment of equal price ranges in the 10 to 15 thousand dollar range just to see what they could actually do and change my mind, because I was not impressed with their performance especially since they are from a well known company. Boy let me tell you they just came alive and I’ve lived with these loudspeakers now on nearly 25 years. My source components and amplification have since changed over the years and the improvements still readily appear like night and day without changing my initial largest and single most important investment that was made in my loudspeakers. I made the right choice and I have also made mistakes in choosing the right source components etc etc... I’m at a point where my satisfaction and lack of listener fatigue are virtually non existent unless a recording is just disappointing and the life has been sucked out of the recording. it’s a satisfying listening experience otherwise.
I know opinions run a muck, but I believe both ends in and out are equally important, but if you can’t afford everything at once buy the speakers that can perform to what ever level of source equipment you can afford to buy. You will thank yourself when it comes time to upgrade the rest of the system as your budget or tastes changes for those sources components and and every thing be at-least equal in the end you will hear those improvements as you progress in spades and your ears & budget will thank you.
Just a philosophy I’ve found to work and be rewarding and hold merit!
Paul, you were trapped into the situation of arguing a point. It is easier to just dismiss the controversy by recognizing that the chain is only as good as the weakest link. A sound system is only as good as the poorest performing component.
Well said
How do we know what the "poorest performing component" might be?
@@Nihilist13 look at the data-sheet. I guess all components will have a better frequency-response than the the speakers and do lower distortion. A non-linearity of 3dB is not so bad for a speaker, but that woud be a desaster for an amp. Also 0.3% distortion is not bad for a speaker but very bad fo an amp ... usually the speakers are the weakest link in the chain, or the room causes the most degradation - which is also some kind of speaker-related (placement ..).
@@Nihilist13 Well that is done by the age old process of elimination.
My room.
When it comes to the letter, my first reaction was like: although true, it doesn't matter whether the speakers or the source are the best component.
A system is only as good as its weakest link, not as good as its best link.
I'm sitting in front of 10 speakers and 3 amps and I agree with Mr Paul.
I'm here to say from experience that, you paul are right😀 this is where the first substantial investment went in my system (the speakers). And yeah I had system out of balance for a few years with great speakers and not so electronics. After finally investing in better amplifiers, dacs, preamp etc it just continued to get better and better. The only downside is with a revealing system is you know you could even throw more $$$ at it and still improve it lol. Like you said, have to keep a budget. I think some folks think having a well thought out educated opinion (i.e. a physicist or even a engineer) trumps experience, but it simply doesn't. It might be a expensive lesson to learn 😀
Definitely heard a very solid cabinet when you pounded your fist on that speaker!
My first 20 or so years experience had been a cycle of great speakers that I loved to bits, followed by ever increasing disappointment as they mercilessly exposed the weakness of the signal with which they were being fed. Had a real wake-up call when I first heard an LP12 (when they were all the rage) because I just didn't want to believe what I'd just heard. But after a couple of weeks I had no choice but to take out a bank loan to buy one and just loved it. I remember a few years later planning to spend around 500 pounds on a CD player (when they started to become cool) but by mistake heard what a Lingo power supply did to the sound of my turntable. Made no logical sense. Big heavy turntable rotated by a small motor using a rubber band - how could a power supply make any difference at all? Trouble is my feet could tell the difference because they just wanted to move around and dance with the Lingo! So never did get the CD player but did get the Lingo. A few years ago got a DAC which I can honestly say is the first time ever I've had a source that's never ever disappointed me and finally rid me of the desire to upgrade as I'm totally happy just to listen (5 years and counting). Thing is if I do the arithmetic, I've still put (roughly) 60% into speakers and 40% into everything else on my current system. So where does this get me? Enlightened? I wish, but I think I've just talked myself into supporting the idea of getting things balanced. Most important of all has just been to listen, listen and listen some more. So grateful to all the dealers who have been so patient with me and that have allowed me to take all kinds of expensive kit home for a week or two at a time so I could really come to terms with what I like and what works best together for me - and totally happy to pay their needed profit margin to keep them in business. Sorry - this got longer than I intended. Great video - thanks for making it!
Paul's ideal makes a world of sense to me!
I agree. The differences in speakers are way bigger than the differences in DACs.
Paul, I heard his statement differently. I heard that he was talking about the creation of the sound, the source. For example, if you have a garage band recorded on a cell phone, no matter what reproduction system you have, the sound will not be comparable to professionally recorded symphony music at the Rockefeller or Kennedy Center. However, from the way you understood the comment, I agree with you.
The neverending pursuit of "best/better"
Buy the best *used* speakers you can afford, is what I say. You might be amazed at what you can get for $500 to $1k. Speakers haven’t changed much over the years. Good speakers remain good speakers.
Infinity Il 10s are a great sounding, smooth speaker that can be had for under $150 and will be the equal of most under 1k speakers. Kudos to used gear also purchased used Marantz AV 7005 preamp for $350
Yep! I totally agree with you there! Best piece of advice in these comments!
JoeJ8282 yes sir! I run PSB Stratus Gold i. Excellent condition. Paid $500. Look at the old reviews (at least I did). They were world beaters at the time.
@@rndm4642 Oh yes! I definitely remember the PSB speakers, especially the Stratus Gold towers, as I wanted a pair of them myself when they came out, but of course I couldn't ever afford them being a "low budget" (or actually basically a NO budget) audiophile! Lol!... You are extremely lucky to have found a pair of those awesome sounding speakers used! Great find man!
All I have in my system is a pair of Polk Audio SDA2 towers from the 80's that I found at my local Saver's thriftstore for $40/pair. Not quite up to the same level of "high-end" as those PSBs that you have, but Polk Audio was a pretty decent brand also, comparable probably to Infinity or the like, and especially considering the price I paid for them, I think I did pretty well! I certainly enjoy listening to music on my system, and it totally blows away most of the newer audio equipment like all of those bullshit "soundbars" and "portable bluetooth speakers" and the like that everyone seems to be using nowadays, especially among anything that the average person can actually afford!
I picked up some advent maestros for quite cheap and only had to replace the fuses. Maybe not hifi.. but they sound brilliant, soundstage is wide, bass is great with power behind them. 150w rms and apparently 750 peak but I’m not sure. They do go loud though, and do so stably for their age. The midrange is luscious, just pulls you right in.
Imo the best bang for buck in audio currently is vintage. A lot of the time it’s cheap and you won’t find anything close to the performance of $100-$500 vintage monkey coffins in the modern consumer grade market for those prices. You do need a keen eye, as just because something has survived the test of time doesn’t mean it’s good. But lots of interesting stuff out there for a good price. My system walks all over lots of $500+ modern surround/sound bar setups I’ve heard.
I’ve gotta say that I do agree with you for the most part, Paul. I do think one must balance things too, and as you said, use a bit of common sense. Speaker technology seems to have come pretty damn far, even in the past 10 yrs or so, and it seems the bang for your buck factor has gone up. It also seems to be the same story with the amps, preamps, DAC’s, etc. too. My speakers make up approximately 1/3 of the cost of my system, and it’s working out marvelously so far.
45 years ago I spent a lot of money on a big heavy pair of quality 200 w floor standing speakers, I did not have much money to spare as just started earning a living, I went through the decades trying various amplifiers,30 watts , 70 watts, all was great. Now I'm old a can afford a decent amplifier, and bought a 6 year old 7 channel 180w per channel amplifier. Those 45 year old speakers are now transformed at last and working as intended ! The HF is a revelation !
My first speakers were a pair of Infinity P363 and I spent some years feeling completely frustrated with them. Until I pair them with a "decent" amplifier (i used them with lot of AV receivers). That was like I have got a totally different speakers. And that teached me lot of things, buried many myths.
My first purchase of high end speakers were an M&K three piece system. satellites and a Sub-woofer. They sounded GREAT!!!!
in the showroom. Like WOW!!! I gotta have these. Bought them. Took them home. Hooked up to a receiver I had at the time.
They sounded like CRAP!!! hooked up to the receiver. So I bought Adcom separates. Hooked the speakers up. WOW!!!
What a difference. I got sold on separates after that.
Today is February 14th, 2020. What is the best pair of speakers that I can purchase for less than $500, has no harsh highs, goes down to at least 40hz, warm but clear mids, and has a decent sweet spot?
Should I be looking for active monitor type speakers or something more home theater type?
I appreciate reading my comment and hope I get some good answers...
Although there is objective weight to his argument, when it comes to actually spending your hard earned cash, I wholeheartedly agree you should start with the speakers. I purchased a pair of Kef Reference speakers (which I could't really afford) well over 20 years ago and I have never had an inclination to upgrade them. I initially used them with a turntable, then a CD player and then a DAT player. I have a streamer now and have swapped out DACs and amplifiers and added a sub, but the speakers remain. In a nutshell, those beautiful floor standing speakers are my reference point for all things audio. They are also one of my most valued earthly possessions.
Byron G Exactly! Me too... In 1991, I upgraded to a pair of Kef Ref 107.2s and you know the rest😊
@@asmg5014 I am sure there are many other speakers that are credible and worthy of a listen, but I just love the sound of Kefs and I dont see that changing. I suspect you are the same. Happy listening !
I've got a set of KEF C55's myself, bought new around 1989, a bit humble in this company probably but at $800 for the pair that was a LOT of money for a guy right out of college and paying off student loans on his first real job, but I love them, I still enjoy 'em to this day and cannot imagine parting with them! The other pieces have evolved many times over the years and I find myself in a weird place where I'm happy with what I have, and in the end those speakers did go from the most expensive to cheapest part of my system!
Good video, I agree the speakers are the more critical component of the system. The bottom line is the speakers reproduce the sound. I think there's less difference between good source components than between speakers. Everyone hears differently and you need to pick speakers that you like. Good video I enjoy them
I am fully invested in Paul's method. But, I'm nowhere near the budget for his gear. Instead, I found a great deal on a pair of vintage ADS L910's as my mains, and am slowly building on the electronics. For now, Adcom 555's and a cheap Emotiva BasX preamp. The preamp is obviously the weak link, so I'm working on that next. I also have an SVS PB-2000 sub, so I'm not in a hurry to upgrade that right now.
What I like about Paul is at least he takes a position and explains why. He doesn’t leave you hanging with it could be this or that. He even goes through the dilemma we all go through.
There are many factors to consider with all of this. Room size, seating placement, how long you will live at a certain place, how loud you like to listen to music, and music genre preference all factor in. Is system supposed to double as home theatre, etc.
Is the system just for you or is it to entertain guests also and used for house parties.
Our “dream” systems have dedicated rooms for each scenario but most of us don’t have this kind of money to have separate systems for each occasion.
With all this being said I don’t think this is a “two” stage situation of “source” and “speakers”. It’s really 3:
1. Source - CD, tape deck, turntable, computer, etc.
2. Amplifier/Receiver
3. Speakers
To me the most important is 2. Invest in a good amp and preamp. I never understood why folks spend so much on speakers then use a “receiver” or even integrated amp.
The next is speakers and last is Source. This gives you the best bang for the buck.
Please note that the above allows for the most convenient steps to upgrade. Introducing a new source is easy. Unplug old source and plug in new.
Speakers are easy too. Disconnect old and connect new.
The middle unit which is the amp/preamp is the hardest. You have to disconnect all sources and speakers! Pain in the a$$!
I agree with Paul too!!
Start with great speakers, then a great amp...
A source today is a lp or a music server...
source is the first
i thought that when you put any of your video's on here that it was for everyone to have fun.. fun.. we listen & we take in everything that you say.. which i fell is excellent schooling.. but i find it quit funny when our friends come on here & try to complicate everything.. lets just have fun & talk about music.. enjoy what they have & enjoy everything you do for us.. which i find brilliant information ..
@Fat Rat point taken.. & thank you for letting me know where to go to a Music Review Channel..
Finding your balance to solve the challenge of best sound for an individual.
Through experimenting with electric guitars and amps its whole apparent when its boiled down the 2 most important decisions are speaker and pickup choices.
The most common fallacy in audio is the source is the most important therefore it deserves the biggest budget. The reality is that the distortion of a cheap digital source is generally at least an order of magnitude better than the very best speakers. Speakers matter most because they are almost always the weakest link. The room is probably the second most important aspect of great sound.
I am into high end SQ car audio rather than home audio but I love these videos. When I was building my system 15 years ago with high end Focal, the shop said I will never really get there until I swapped out the Head Unit. And they were right, the system was never truly great until I got the legendary Pioneer Dex P99-RS. But now, that same audio shop tells people to keep the stock HU and get a high end DSP. They claim the DSPs are so good now they can transform the output of any receiver into excellence. I do agree with what Paul and others have said, speakers first, then the receiver. But I guess in home audio, the focus is to get the receiver right and you do not need a DSP?
A revealing pair of speakers that you trust will teach you everything you need to know about the quality of your source and your cables. If you're just starting out, getting the most reliable messenger to your ears possible is definitely the way to go. Listen to Paul, he's right.
I´m with you Paul!! Thank's for another great vid!!
You're welcome. Thanks for watching.
Hi Paul - Just...curious; Are you familiar with Pioneer's HPM-150 Speakers?I have a pair and...love them. All...original. If you are familiar with these, what ate your thoughts pn them?
I have been buying inexpensive used receivers and speakers from Goodwill and Facebook market place and am very happy with the sound. I think I need a new blueray player and av receiver because of HDMI inputs/outputs. Decent speakers are very important.
I try to match the components to what I can afford. I will tell you what, though; when I built 3-way speakers with 15" woofers in front-facing, rear-loaded folded horn (the cone faces you but the rear porting is a folded horn) a midrange cone and tweeter horn on top, my 25 watt/channel receiver could shake the house. I used the 15s for my bass guitar while performing, too, which is why I had separate cabinets for my woofers. When I bought speakers for the same system, I wanted something that the receiver could drive. I still have those speakers, and they sound as good as they did 40 years ago. I'm now on my 3rd receiver, which is 100 watts/channel at 8 ohms. I think some sort of balance might be a good way to go. My speakers are inexpensive Pioneer 3-way 12" with tube porting. The systems that have very good clarity. I don't feel like I'm listening through a curtain. There are better components that I'm not willing to spend the money on right now. I have the speakers on stands, I give them tow-in, and they sound quite good. The best investment I think I could make right now is a 12" sub that carries everything below 55 Hz. That's where my current speakers start to drop off. Placed correctly and not turned up too loud, they would sound good. That is probably the best single investment I could make to improve my home system at this time.
The egg came first, a genetic mutation, from a different species, leading to the hatching of a chicken. The chicken definitely did not mutate from a predecessor as a living entity, the egg definitely came first.
Next question? O.O
That's a theory not a law...
@@dodibenabba1378 When you find a creature which has morphed while it's alive, then come back to me and point me to it. You don't have to believe in evolution to accept what I stated, you just have to see that change occurs by birth. If a chicken was not created from a new type of egg, how did the chicken appear?
i should have read the previous comments, i would have seen you beat me to it. i guess i should have assumed someone had (fist bump)
Digital Audio Tapes wer enot a success and repalced by USb sticks and Linux. They use Firewire becuae they go up to 100 feets. NOT USB 3,0!
To get more chickens you need a rooster. Where did the rooster come from?
Paul should run a matchmaker programme on FM radio !
He’s absolutely right ... you should put the greater part of your budget into the speaker systems .. no doubt about that ... the next step to go for is the source and what it is .. DSD seems to rule the roost right now, so go with it .. lastly the amp stages .. all you need is a pre amp with the same or slightly less slew rate than the power amp but they must both be of high order ( 60v /micro second ) low inter modular distortion and excellent channel separation .. low noise and negligible distortion in general ... a matching power amp with enough power reserves to drive the speakers of your choice is last
Depending on how bad your room is it is either the first or second most important variable along with your speakers.
I agree with you Paul. The rule of diminishing returns possesses variable rates for different system components. I believe the curve is steeper for electronics than it is for speakers. If you double the cost of a speaker, you will get perhaps a 25% improvement in sound. Double the cost of a DAC or amplifier however, and you may only get a 10% improvement. The key is to match the rate of returns between components. With ten grand, I'd use $6000 of it on speakers and the remaining for the source, DAC, amp, etc...
Hi Paul, thanks for the post. Just curious as a Rotel amp owner you often use Rotel as an example of a junk receiver???
Thanks