Thank you so much SuperMarioT I’m tired from all the people, especially Captain midnight ua-cam.com/video/gbf37id8lEE/v-deo.html and speedsupersonic ua-cam.com/video/kU_C1Le3DMQ/v-deo.html saying that Miyamoto being involved does not make the Mario movie good
SuperMarioT I've always knew it was Tanabe and Intelligent systems falt for making Paper Mario the way it is and I always hated the modern Paper Mario games especially that crap game TOK and I hope I don't have to see another Paper Mario game again unless they give the IP to someone else and not have Tanabe in charge of that franchise.
I think what some people forget is that the “Mario sterilization” came from an era where Nintendo as a whole was trying too hard to capture the casual audience. It has almost nothing to do with Mario specifically
Miyamoto originally wanted to be a manga creator, before settling for a career in video games. I mostly see him as a person that focuses on the gameplay aspect and if it fits into the project he adds a story.
@@galfinsp7216 That game also playfully criticized otaku culture during one part of the story. Considering how big it is over there I suppose that soured a few players.
@@galfinsp7216 That's not what happened. Only 1% said the story was interesting doesn't mean 99% said it was uninteresting. It just means only 1% indulged in that question.
As a reminder to what the Club Nintendo surveys were, after filling out the initial survey on why you got the game, you got a post-play survey. This survey included how high you rated the game, what type of audience you think it is suited for (similar to the review system on 3DS/Wii U eShop), how likely you would recommend and if you recommended already with the final couple questions asking in free response what did you like about and what disliked about the game. As with most surveys, most people know that a good chunk of the responses are mostly useless. However, there should still be a decent chunk of people responding in decent faith. SPM not even getting 1% of responses saying they liked the story gives a sign that story doesn't help sell these games. Yes Nintendo should have made better surveys but, there is a base level of information that can be obtained from this kind of survey
I always feel like his advice was "Make the gameplay/battle system fun and not rely on the story as the only form of entertainment." The new PM games fail to do even that so it's clear that his advice wasn't even followed to the letter.
@@amongstus4418 exactly. Miyamoto never said “I don’t want a story”. He just wanted to make sure the gameplay was fun enough that the game could be enjoyable as it’s own thing without relying on a story to carry it
@@NuiYabuko If you're talking about the mainline games, compare how the story is told and how games like Sonic Adventure is told...there's implicit narrative to a degree but there's no development of stuff per se rather than progression to your goal. Not that it's necessarily bad (they're very good "episodic games" rather than "serialized games"), but that's the meaning not having too much narrative.
I am not gonna lie, I was subscribed to the "Miyamoto doesn't like narrative idea" for a while until I watched some of your Paper Mario videos. It was just this easy rumor to spread around. It feels like people don't understand the concept of people's philosophy on certain things changing over time and that something said over a decade ago wouldn't be reflective of how a person feels today.
It doesn't really matter if someone's "philosophy changed" over time or what-have-you... When people see a handful of games run into the same issue(s) _constantly,_ they have no reason to believe that anyone/anything in the background has changed. So, naturally, such things will keep being repeated. It's a self-fulfilling cycle. On a less serious note, it's kinda like when Nintendo puts out a new system update. More often than not, the only details they give for them are "system stability" related. Which then leads to people commenting the same jokes/memes when it happens. For as long as Nintendo repeats the same actions, so too will others respond in the same way.
It seems he was the one who misinterpreted his own sources. By looking closely at the interview, you can see that Miyamoto clearly had disagreements with Koizumi about putting story in the Mario Galaxy series. You underestimate the influence Miyamoto has, he has the final word, so it is outside Koizumi control. It is just a matter of reading between the lines-and sometimes it's not even subtle-. Here are just a couple of quotes that were conveniently left out of this video for people to decide: Miyamoto: "I’ve always watched over him (Koizumi) to make sure he used those strengths (storytelling) but didn’t go overboard. Ever since Mario Sunshine, however, I’d felt there was something not quite natural about certain developments. I had, of course, talked about that with him all along, but when it came to certain central elements, there were areas we had each somehow avoided bringing up....When making the first Mario Galaxy, I had said Mario games didn’t need a story or movies, but before I knew it, there were quite a few movies and a substantial amount of story... Because I’d had that experience with the first Mario Galaxy, we talked beforehand this time about cutting out such elements (in Mario Galaxy 2), but I began to get the feeling during development that those things were not sufficiently cut off. ..... I had been keeping an eye on the action elements, and had checked the course designs, but I had mostly left the more theatrical elements to the team.....I knew I couldn’t leave the game as it was, so one Saturday afternoon, I met Koizumi-san outside the company building to have a long talk with him" Koizumi: ""I would sort of try to find sneaky ways to get story elements in without them noticing too much.....These are aspects of the games that Miyamoto wasn't nearly as fond of, and occasionally didn't like." Portions of the Rosalina's Storybook were also cut. But don't get me wrong, Miyamoto is an undisputed genius and i think he detected immediately the problem with Sunshine and his reasoning is very good. but there is clear friction between the two directors, as Iwata said"That’s been a hot topic ever since Mario Sunshine."referring to story in Mario.
@@visualizermusictracks At that point, he isn't really a genius, he is just a man who was blinded by what Mario was and what he was trying to get Mario to be in the Nintendo world. If anything else, I think that what he did let go of in terms of story with Mario Sunshine actively harmed the game more than it helped it. Honestly, by this information it sure does seem like Miyamoto had a lot of growing up to do and to see a much greater overall picture with who Mario is. I can see that from this perspective that people like Koizumi had a much grander vision for Mario that I think would've been really interesting to see. Of course, I am struggling right now with seeing a more complete version of the picture you are trying to make here, does this mean that Miyamoto made some mistakes in his past and now he is trying to embrace storytelling now? Or is he still *respectfully* arguing with fellow workers about why Mario shouldn't have narrative because it doesn't fit in line with his more mechanic-focused viewpoint on Mario? If the latter, then why did it take up until Galaxy for them to give Mario better movement options to be able to handle tricky movements between platforms (the spin jump *jumps* to mind) or why don't they add more Kirby and WarioWare styled content into Mario? You can't just say that you appreciate gameplay more than narrative, and botch it up worse than Ratchet and Clank or Little Big Planet or literally any other Playstation, Nintendo or even Microsoft game.
Yeah since Mario Odyssey, I could tell Miyamoto let the free reins on story go with Koizumi. He changed and it was great to see it. He's definitely past his old ways!! Glad Koizumi is getting control and recognition for this amazing contributions and his strengths!
People often forget Miyamoto was one of the driving forces behind SMRPG, the game that kick started the whole Paper Mario series As for the IP team, it was formed sometime after 2007, and considering the spin off games that came out around that time you can see why pushing back against some things.
Could I ask where the info of the IP team began in 2007, because SMG1 did release in 2007, and I felt the Bland Mario Era only started around the 2011-2012 with Mario Party 9 or Sticker Star), I mean SPM still did come post-2007.
@@zjzr08 The other reason Mario RPG exists is because Square wanted to make an RPG that would do well in America, since RPGs at the time only sold well in Japan.
I read that Sticker Star Iwata Asks article back then. I remember reading about how Miyamoto said that the new battle system sucks, and noted how they didn't ask his opinion again later. All he asked for them to do was spice the original formula up in the first place, anyway. If they HAD listened to Miyamoto and made more changes, it may have been better.
FINALLY an in-depth video about this topic has been done. For years I've been so tired of hearing the same "Miyamoto hates stories", "Miyamoto hates characters that he didn’t create", "Miyamoto is just a corrupt businessman", and "Miyamoto ruined all of the spinoffs!!!" despite giving practically NO proof towards this arguments and contradicting a lot about what he actually does. If he truly hated stories, Zelda would be entirely different and he wouldn't want Mario RPGs to exist nor a Mario movie. Hell, he literally outright states he actually likes Waluigi, but fans go on and say that he's just jealous about other characters being more popular than him, with once again, no proof. He isn’t just the guy who created the Mario franchise, and I really hope the Mario movie manages to shut all of the fake sayings about Miyamoto because I'm just done with this.
Also thank you for using my screenshot surrounding Rosalina's backstory! I'll admit I use to believe the myth, but looking at it now it really doesn't make much sense that Koizumi would have to sneak it in
I swear if you ask one of these people actually parroting this for any proof they'll probably either say "come on man it's widely known", or point to the Rosa storybook "secret". No videos featuring any recent Miyamoto quotes, no articles. Nothing but the fact they've heard it from other people.
This happens all the time unfortunately. It's very easy for the face of a brand/company to take all the blame when in reality it's often a collective of executives who are at fault.
I'd argue every Mario game has its own narrative woven through the levels & characters. Above all else, I believe Mario is an adventurer. His stories involve overcoming obstacles & set pieces on a day to day basis, or whenever the Princess has been kidnapped. He ventures into locations & places no toad has ever dared attempt. (At least until Captain Toad.) Mario could easily venture the easy path & not bother with the obstacles or levels in his way. But he doesn't. He moves forward, tackling the danger head on, and depending if the player dies a whole bunch, eventually overcomes the challenges ahead. Every single time. Those are the stories Mario games tell.
Mario is a Media Artist. All of his "Games" are just Films or spectacles which are sold to the audience; With the audience being You: The player. Since Mario is a bit Narcissistic (Best example is Mario's Line: "Mario Number One!"), He is the lead star for most of his media and games. Going back to the video, I don't understand why people think Miyamoto is Anti-Narrative. The first game has it's story and lore in the Instruction manual, but every other game afterwards Has it's story In game (Mario 3 being a play and Super Mario World being more of an adventure filmed on Dinosaur Island). Miyamoto Does like simple and easy to ignore Narratives, but minor narratives is not the same as No Narratives. I think Miyamoto likes simplicity because He was a huge fan of Disney Movies, which are often not liked for the Narratives, but for the visuals, emotions and characters.
@@ChillstoneBlakeBlast Mario 3 being a play isn't canon as it was only stated in a joke interview. Likewise Mario World is a real adventure like every Mario adventure (With even Mario 2 being Mario dreaming of a past adventure they went on.)
I didn't know this was still a largely accepted theory, but I can't say I'm surprised that people misconstrue his words. Interviews of his in the past have frequently been cherry-picked to put him in a negative light. The hating Donkey Kong Country quote comes to mind (and that one was a flat out lie). I don't know if it has to do with him being Nintendo's most iconic developer, or maybe the fact that people just automatically assume he has a heavy role in modern-day game development at Nintendo, but I've definitely seen it pop up more than it should. A solid debunk, though I would assume that most of the people who still believe this are just simply uninformed.
This really needed to be said. You could forget everything this man has ever done. Why have a movie if you dislike stories? If anything, if it’s something like a Genndy Tartakovsky work, that would be really creative. NOT TO MENTION, if he had was really bad with the movie makers, why would they be complementing his ideas in articles?
Well, the answer is Mario movie is a license to print money and looking for a reason for paper Mario to be hampered is pretty justifiable. Ultimately it's funimation and the passion for story is minimal
One thing that people don't get with Miyamoto with Paper Mario is that unlike Sakamoto with Metroid Prime he doesn't have his hand on Paper Mario. It's to the point that Miyamoto doesn't really seem to care despite his attitude towards stories changing for the better, however I completely see where Tanabe was coming from with not understanding what was wrong with early Sticker Star. At this point Miyamoto saying he hates stories is so out of date.
@@buzzytrombone4353 Come on now, do we always use the contrarian/negativity reasoning for this, without additional nuance, most are probably just ignorant as they don't have time to dig in these stuff.
I always had a feeling the fallacy wasn't true, and it was great to be informed in such detail while also getting a grasp on how the Paper Mario series took its turn since Sticker Star. Though I do wonder if the restrictions the IS devs end up mentioning also apply to Mario spin offs these days, since I have seen people saying they don't have the same charm as previous installments and there's concerns of Mario Strikers Battle League suffering from it a tad too. Great job with the video too, and I COMPLETELY understand being sick of a misinformation filled fallacy and wanting to spread something to help put it to rest, as I've had a similar issue with something in Xenoblade 2 that gets so much misinfo spread that I made a video partially about some time ago. Great job once again.
_THIS IS IT ..._ it's time to see what the truth is all about. (And yes, I watched "Why Paper Mario Refuses to Change") EDIT: I am going to say it (hate me all you want): "Liberal" Paper Toad character designs like _Vanna T._ from the N64 Paper Mario game do not harm the Mario brand AT ALL. Removing Toadsworth and Toadette from Paper Mario altogether after The Thousand Year door is dumb and should have _never_ happened. I'm tired of Miyamoto being the damn scapegoat in regards to all of this and I'm glad that I can confidently share this video with OTHERS. Thank you, Mah d00d 🐧
I usually see this kind of talk pop up on Twitter threads (shocker) mainly dealing with Paper Mario and gets rather monotonous seeing the same misinformation cycle through the same crowd of people
Miyamoto has been a supervisor at Nintendo since the Wii era, I think his last franchise he created was Pikmin as well as he supervised the development of Wii Sports. (Koizumi was also around with Nintendo since the 80s and 90s.) With most of the old guard retired or already passed away (Yamauchi, Yokoi and Iwata) Shigeru Miyamoto is one of the few of the old Nintendo guard that is still there but only just as Supervisor role at Nintendo of Japan. I think the real blame is whoever is running the Paper Mario series since the 3DS and Wii U era.
In short, it’s not Miyamoto himself who did the restrictions at all. It was most likely the collective executives or even the main Mario IP team who did that against Miyamoto’s words, as he wanted the franchise to be less rigid, not more.
Going into this video I started with this misconception about Miyamoto, but this video has changes my mind. One thing I would like to add is sunshine had a more in depth plot back in 2003 and luigi mansion came out a game starting luigi with a different plot back in 2001. Miyamoto has almost always had stories in his games. The only era I can think of we're the stories were more limited with Mario was the n64 and those games are considered good anyway.
How the media and fans viewed Miyamoto and Koizumi: Miyamoto: MAHAHAHAHA! Stories bad, Mario should be bland! Koizumi: I'll show big meanie Miyamoto-san that stories are good. I'll do it behind his back! How it actually went down: Miyamoto: I preferred the Mario series have consistency and simple premise, but it's nice to add creative liberties and deep storytelling, if you wish. Koizumi: Ok, understandable. Jokes aside, I kinda feel bad about Miyamoto and how his words been taking so seriously nowadays. And I always find it cringy how certain fans portrayed Miyamoto as villain when it comes to Paper Mario.
@@Cerebrum123 Just because they were "slipped in" doesn't mean it was done with any ill-intent to spite Miyamoto. It's more like Koizumi flexing his creative muscle while under a strict deadline. If sneaking the Link and Marin love story in Link's Awakening was such a problem it would've been removed from the remake.
@@RoboticEdward The very fact that snuck story elements in, even after being told not to, shows his disdain for the rule even if not for those who put it in place. We also have him state that Miyamoto does not care for story elements in games, and Miyamoto* has various quotes showing this as well. Despite SuperMarioT portraying Miyamoto being just fine with stuff like Rosalina, it's not actually true. Miyamoto's biggest problem with Super Mario Galaxy was Rosalina, he thought there was no need for her in the game because Peach already existed. He was originally only okay with the idea because he thought she would be in one game only, as well as admits that the reason he was hung up on her was possibly because of jealousy(the other meanings of green doesn't make sense in the context). However, she got a huge fanbase immediately, so she got to stay. Miyamoto: When Super Mario Galaxy first came out, I was a little hung up on why Rosalina was showing up when Princess Peach was already there. I thought it was fine as long as it was only Super Mario Galaxy, and we made her design so she's a little bigger. But all of a sudden she was a regular character in Mario Kart as just a regular girl, even her size turned to normal. Iwata: As they say, time solves all things. Miyamoto: If I think about it now, I'm like, "What was I so hung up on?!" I guess I was still green. (laughs) Miyamoto has applied the "no story" rule to Zelda in the past, but because Koizumi didn't follow the order for a direct port of A Link to the Past we got Link's Awakening. Miyamoto admitted in an interview to putting a stop to story discussion on Super Mario Galaxy 2. “Well, I put a stop to that at the beginning, this time,” Miyamoto said, and for emphasis punched the air with his fist. Given his other statement there was probably an agreement made that Koizumi got to make Rosalina, but next time no story. Oh, and you do realize there is a difference between someone liking something and someone allowing something, right? Over and over Miyamoto has stated how much he dislikes grander narratives in video games(especially Mario), something he appears to have inherited from Hiroshi Yamauchi, a president of Nintendo that disliked video games. He's the guy who got Nintendo into the business of video games, but only because he thought they would be profitable. At one point he calls all RPG players "depressed nerds", and probably didn't think much more highly of gamers in general. *There is a lot more from Miyamoto that SuperMarioT either hasn't read, or glossed over.
@@Cerebrum123 You're manipulating af. Like, you quote him saying "What was I so hung up over?" Do you think game dev is one person proposing something, then everyone agreeing? You think people don't change their mind? Being green also means being inexperienced and the like. Being jealous wouldn't even fit with the sentence structure, but I guess it's easier to push a narrative than look up the meaning. Miyamoto worked on SF and Pikmin. Like the first three Pikmin games at least have a chronological storyline. Also, the video literally says Miyamoto is fine when it comes to plots in Zelda games.
I never once thought Miyamoto was the main reason why not all of Nintendo's games have stories. Not all games need a story, but they're much more enjoyable if there's a narrative feel to them. Like you mentioned, the fact that a Super Mario Movie is on the way shows us how much Miyamoto not only has grown as a video game developer; but allowing Mario(and other Nintendo IPs) to expand themselves in new areas!!!
Miyamoto doesn't hate stories or creativity. He's a man who preffers that the game is fun to play before anything else and... technically even if the "use mario characters" is literal or missinterpreted... Mario has like tons of characters across the years :\
It seems he was the one who misinterpreted his own sources. By looking closely at the interview, you can see that Miyamoto clearly had disagreements with Koizumi about putting story in the Mario Galaxy series. You underestimate the influence Miyamoto has, he has the final word, so it is outside Koizumi control. It is just a matter of reading between the lines-and sometimes it's not even subtle-. Here are just a couple of quotes that were conveniently left out of this video for people to decide: Miyamoto: "I’ve always watched over him (Koizumi) to make sure he used those strengths (storytelling) but didn’t go overboard. Ever since Mario Sunshine, however, I’d felt there was something not quite natural about certain developments. I had, of course, talked about that with him all along, but when it came to certain central elements, there were areas we had each somehow avoided bringing up....When making the first Mario Galaxy, I had said Mario games didn’t need a story or movies, but before I knew it, there were quite a few movies and a substantial amount of story... Because I’d had that experience with the first Mario Galaxy, we talked beforehand this time about cutting out such elements (in Mario Galaxy 2), but I began to get the feeling during development that those things were not sufficiently cut off. ..... I had been keeping an eye on the action elements, and had checked the course designs, but I had mostly left the more theatrical elements to the team.....I knew I couldn’t leave the game as it was, so one Saturday afternoon, I met Koizumi-san outside the company building to have a long talk with him" Koizumi: ""I would sort of try to find sneaky ways to get story elements in without them noticing too much.....These are aspects of the games that Miyamoto wasn't nearly as fond of, and occasionally didn't like." Portions of the Rosalina's Storybook were also cut. But don't get me wrong, Miyamoto is an undisputed genius and i think he detected immediately the problem with Sunshine and his reasoning is very good. but there is clear friction between the two directors, as Iwata said"That’s been a hot topic ever since Mario Sunshine."referring to story in Mario.
as someone who, mostly within their personal friend circles and such, has spread the "Miyamoto no like Mario with story" narrative... my next stop on youtube is probably how to apply clown makeup lmao almost immediately, i felt your frustration in explaining all of this, and i feel you're perfectly justified with it
At this point, I'm more convinced that Tanabe is more to blame than Myamoto. Because he seems more like he doesn't really listen to fans at all. At least intelligent systems have made games with stories before outside of Mario. if I remember correctly they also do Fire emblem so it makes me wonder why paper Mario doesn't seam to care about story.
I think the worst I can really say about Miyamoto is that he said 3D World doesn't have oneline co-op because then the couch co-op wouldn't be there. They could have done both. Look Miyamoto isn't against storytelling as far as I am concerned. Like Mario Bros. 3 has a narrative. All Kimgs of different Kingdoms got turned into monsters, the kids of Bowser are to blame and stole the scepters. Make a journey through those several lands until you get to Bowser. This is a story. It isn't as in-depth as other games. But these are platformers, games living from leveldesign and skill of the player, not RPG's.
Well at least I hope those rumors won't get to Miyamoto. As in have a negative impact. There have been many stories of great creators falling due to poor reaction to criticism. And falling due to misplaced criticism is most certainly not something anyone wants to see happen.
So because Miyamoto made one or two suggestions (suggestions, not even demands) about Paper Mario Sticker Star, people pointed fingers at him and ONLY him for what the Paper Mario series has become?! ... I don't even know what to say at this point.
Obviously he should be blamed entirely for Paper Mario, but he can be blamed for trying to halt Link's Awakening, Majora's Mask and the Mario Galaxy duology from turning out with more of a story (succeeding for Galaxy 2) And if you don't think that's enough, Star Fox had the same story *for five time*. Star Fox, Star Fox 2, Star Fox 64, Star Fox DS (not the name, but I will credit the different character endings) and Star Fox Zero.
THANK. YOU. This misinformation has NOT made mario discussion fun. I've seen this misinformed shit pop up again and again under my twitter posts whenever I want to discuss about Mario and it's so tiring. I hope your video helps mitigate this misinformation and can finally open people's eyes.
Yeah, it's just not fun at ALL ... and obviously that extends to the Paper Mario stuff. ☜ (↼_↼) Like I almost never talk about Paper Mario unless it's like HERE or related videos. Because we keep going in this dumb circle...
@@duragdee2760 Because Twitter is a home to a spectrum of weird people who are easy to point out from the way they wear makeup and style their hair and how they dress like they're giving some kind of political statement, almost as if they were copying the Joker, trying to be emo.
I would have jumped on this same bandwagon if it were not for the fact that no one ever cared to give supporting evidence. Thank you for this video SMT.
Fantastically researched. Miyamoto has been subject to lot of false quotes and untrue viewpoints over the years, I’d go as far to say he’s the most misquoted in the industry. I was in the camp he hates stories until I saw your Paper Mario videos. Thanks for setting this straight.
I swear, "Miyamoto hates stories" is the Mario equivalent of "Zero killed the entire classic Mega Man cast". This easy rumor stemmed from one misinterpreted public piece of evidence that people deluded themselves into thinking both it and half the later pieces of evidence supported this one view, ignoring the other half that straightup say no to it. I'll be sure to share this when I see someone claim Miyamoto's the reason for Mario's "lack of story". The man may have entertained that line of thought for a short period in the 3DS and Wii U era (and slightly before), but we can tell from Odyssey and Luigi's Mansion 3 alone that it's AT LEAST no longer the case now, if it was the case at all.
Glad you made this video. Also, one thing I think people forget a lot in this discussion is that there _is_ a difference between a game not having a story, and it having one that either involves relatively few characters (or relatively few that were invented specifically for that game), is conveyed with little to no actual text (as with the NSMB and 3D Place subseries, as opposed to SMB3 and SMW’s narratives), or simply doesn’t get particularly sad at any point.
It had always confused me why Miyamoto had apparently as far as I could tell seemed so against stories in Mario games, when he practically created the concept of stories in video games back in 1981 with Donkey Kong, literally one of the first video games to actually have a real story let alone ACTUAL CUTSCENES telling said story (and it was the first Mario game too no less, making Mario the first video game series to even have the concept of proper stories in games in the first place), while most previous games were just pure storyless contextless gameplay like Pacman and stuff, and so this video makes SO MUCH more sense and really clears that blatant contradiction up and how the whole idea is more of an overblown myth.
To quote Chuggaaconroy: "It wasn't a cooperate mandate, it was just something he popped in and left suggests for... They could have processed that request in many ways including throwing it in the trash."
Miyamoto hating storytelling always felt odd to me considering the previous entries in the 3D Mario series did have some form of storytelling. Granted it did take the backseat and only made itself known via signs, Toads and NPCs & bosses in each level, but it was indeed there. The way some of the Mario games treat their storytelling is similar to Kirby's. It's subtly there but doesn't fully make itself known until the tail-end of the adventure (i.e. near the final set of bosses). Or in Kirby's case, it's hidden in plain sight. You wanna know why folks often say "pause for lore"? It's because they often include tidbits or the backstory for certain bosses and makes it *optional* compared to most series. Even Kirby and the Rainbow Curse and Forgotten Land have *tons* hidden lore, but instead of being tied to the pause screen it's tied to the unlockable figurines and in Rainbow Curse's case a "secret" diary owned by Elline which adds even more lore but from her perspective.
Excellent video SuperMarioT and speaking about your video, I will put a fragment of the interview with the director of Super Mario RPG Chihiro Fujioka about a question that was asked if Miyamoto restricted his ideas or not. Interviewer: Did Nintendo ever shoot down any of your ideas? Fujioka: We had periodic meetings with Miyamoto, and he thought the majority of our ideas were interesting. He would rarely say a certain idea was “bad”; rather, he would point out how if we changed this, or re-arranged that, it would be more interesting, and more “Mario”-like. He gave us a lot of advice like that, which we used to adjust things in the game. Another thing was that, before we even started making Mario RPG specifically, we had this pre-conception at Square that RPGs==weapons. As our conversations progressed with Miyamoto, however, it became clear that this would be weird for a Mario game, that it didn’t seem to fit. When we realized that, it was a huge change in the direction of the development. We had always imagined the enemies would have weapons though. One thing we did leave in was the hammer, which Miyamoto insisted on having. Personally, I think getting hit with a hammer is more painful than being cut by a sword, but… (laughs) And to finish, I leave you with the 1992 interview between Shigeru Miyamoto and Hayao Miyazaki ua-cam.com/video/D5zMwOuhyHc/v-deo.html Cheers, the Captain Hanafuda 🎴👺♠
Omg thank you for this video! I’ve gotten so much misinformation about Miyamoto being anti-narrative that I started to believe it for a bit, but this opened my eyes to a whole different perspective.
This video alone helped me realize Miyamoto is not as against story telling as I thought. That and he had almost no involvement in Sticker Star. Glad this video exists.
So to summarize the video, it isn't really a case of Shigeru Miyamoto hating stories so much as having more fleshed out stories if it were to help the games. If it can, he gives a thumbs up. If not, thumbs down. It is more that he feels that a story is necessary to achieve a desired outcome. :)
Thank you so much for clearing this whole situation up. I didn't know the whole story and sometimes really believed some of the points that some people made. Finally I know the truth and I'm so interested how the Mario Movie turns out. Maybe we should be just more thankful we have Miyamoto sure the stories aren't super deep but at least we have 99% of the time amazing and innovative Gameplay.
0:01 to 0:41 That description is what I go through when people say Ganondorf is overused as a main villain when he's not even the main villain in *OVER HALF THE GAMES IN THE CANONICAL FRANCHISE!!!!!!!*
Compelling discussion, appreciate how much effort you put into this. I do think there are a couple of cases where you're extrapolating conclusions that can't quite be solidly reached with the evidence provided, I wouldn't say it quite reaches the level of proof that things panned out the way that you claim in a couple cases (Particularly where you're saying that decisions definitely were or were not made with specific people and groups involved or not, and then using that as proof of your claims, when the developer interviews didn't really get into those specifics), but, the fact that your conclusions are still broadly pretty reasonable with the available information gives plenty cause to doubt how concrete the existing narrative is. Heck, you're drawing those conclusions with the same evidence that most of the proponents of the anti-Miyamoto narrative use - that alone says it's not as cut and dry as they suggest. To emphasize, that's not me saying you didn't make a compelling case - just quibbles about what constitutes actual proof to back up claims. For me personally, I'd believed that narrative to varying degrees before, and I definitely don't believe that narrative is correct anymore. Think it's more of a case by case basis with multiple people involved in decision making, and that people can't reasonably claim that Miyamoto is consistently against stories given some of what you presented here. So, yeah, well done video.
Glad this popped up on my feed! This was quite informative. I'll admit that I was on the "Miyamoto hates story" train myself. (though not "Miyamoto hates story" in general. More like "Miyamoto doesn't want deep stories in Super Mario games.") I guess it was more Intelligent Systems - or Kensuke Tanabe - taking the wrong lessons than anything. Somewhat related, this makes me wonder if the same applies to original characters that were made for Mario Golf/Tennis. (Plum, Kid, Sherry, Alex, Nina, etc...) Did Camelot decide to scrap them? If so, that makes me sad. I liked them, and was lookign forward to see what would happen in Mario Golf DS and Mario Tennis DS. (that ultimately never happened.)
Great video! I have been of the same mind ever since the "Miyamoto ruined Paper Mario" argument became big. There are several other common Anti-Miyamoto arguments that have popped up over the years which are easy to debunk with cursory research. I know some things come down to a matter of taste and creative difference, so it is not always easy to make a scientific rebuttal, but you've done an amiable job here, and many of your arguments have been my own. Sometime, I plan to make my own video on the criticisms of Miyamoto and expand on some of your arguments, but your video was so well done I'll be sure to point people your way.
Also, one thing I noted is that storytelling doesn't always mean characters need to talk lines of dialogue. Storytelling can be also wordless actions, scenes, every fine little movement and object and expression. And that's something that I've seen being done successfully in Odyssey, LM3 and Origami King. Three different game genres, three different devs, three examples of how not always there is need of dialogue.
This opened up my eyes. But it also made me realize that if we really want Paper Mario to go back to the way the community wants it, or for either the return of the RPG series or a new RPG Series in M&L's case, then we need to back off of Miyamoto and focus on the ones truly at fault.
Eh, I mean sure the feedback was misplaced but Nintendo still knows how people felt about these games. Someone has been trying to subvert that over and over with pm
@@SuperMarioT Thank God. Thrb he could maybe finally retire his old running gag of "MIYAMOTO!!" and maybe aim his hate for what happened to sticker star where it should be aimed.
Arlo is such a Thousand-Year Door rider and spreads false information to get Thousand-Year Door fans on his side and spreading Nintendo doesn't care for their fans is the stupidest argument made by Nintendo fans and big UA-camrs just to catch in on subscribers and views and the fact that he doesn't like Mario and Luigi just because of ttyd shows how thousand door has turned this entire paper mario fanbase into pure trash
I never liked arlo dudes too negative to the point that it feels like he's trying to find something bad, he said he didn't like Mario's character calling him an idiot
I appreciate how informative and how well the points and arguments are put together, but I wish it was delivered in a calmer tone I get the frustration and understand that it comes from a genuine place, but I don't think it helped in making your points and it just made it kind of uncomfortable
People who believe or push this narrative aren't exactly speaking from a place of serenity either. Can't expect the tone here to be soft when dealing with ignorant people.
@@Player-jh4ko I'm calling those ignorant for believing or spreading misinformation about Miyamoto, not those who reasonably want Paper Mario to go back to its roots.
Its reasons like these that make me wonder why people think Mario being stale is a good thing. Like you said in the video, we wouldn't have a crossover with Nintendo's mickey mouse and Ubisoft's Oompa Loompas If they didn't want to. We literally got Mario strikers back a game about VIOLENCE may I remind, got a new entry. Mario games have some of its experimental charm back, and it also help them thrive in the end. So what's stopping them from going the full mile?
Battle League looks severely toned down from Super Strikers and Charged. We don't even have the Kremlings as Goalies/Goaltenders anymore, replaced with Boom Boom. Don't even get me started on how the other Sports titles feel watered down from previous entries from the GC and Wii eras.
@@espurrseyes42 Exactly. I may not be a fan of the sports games, but even I can tell some sacrifices were made to make them more "On-brand". It so weird how they their fine with making a crossover with the Rabbids but when it comes to their Spin-offs series, they watered them down to a point where its easily associated with NSMB a series that hasn't gotten a new game in 10 YEARS.
@@espurrseyes42 I'd argue having Boom Boom rather than a Kremling as a goalie makes much more sense for a Mario game such as this. Nothing was lost here from this change.
@@duragdee2760 It does, but it still sucks to loose a more "creative" character (one who was in the first game mind you) for a stock NSMB era enemy (yes I know Boom Boom is from SMB3, but dropped off the face of the Earth until resurfacing during the NSMB era, frequently appearing as a boss and kinda overstaying his welcome). It's even worse considering fucking Tanabe basically killed off the Kremlings and they likely won't be coming back in the DK franchise. So it would've been nice to keep one of their few Mario appearances intact.
@@espurrseyes42 Eh, I think it's unreasonable to write off something prominent from the NSMB era as stale or 'overstayed its welcome', simply because other material wasn't used ALONGSIDE them. People really take for granted the amount of material introduced in the NSMB era, especially characters and items (I.e Koopalings and the Super Leaf) that practically saw little to no use after their debuts. Also, how is a Kremling more creative than Boom Boom??? Kremlings, from what I know, are basic henchmen from the DK games, whereas Boom Boom is a boss who has a variety of abilities, alongside a more fitting personality for a Strikers game.
I used to believe Miyamoto was anti-story, but the thought of him being involved in Paper Mario didn't even cross my mind, and I did not believe in him cutting down Galaxy 2's story either, but I did believe he made it a reboot of Galaxy 1 to reset that thing I have been semi enlightened
@@bunsmasterbunny It’s lack of interesting world building, it’s complete disrespect to Mario as a character, it not taking itself seriously, and Peach angers me in it more then she usually does.
I think that the real problem is that Tanabe just isn't good at creativity. He made a game that Miyamoto considered to be a rehash of TTYD, and when criticised, he made an even blander game instead. All of his creative ideas boil down to adding a paper related gimmick, and he doesn't reuse gameplay elements from older games because he doesn't know how to innovate with them. He just seems like a very unartistic artist. If we really wanna fix Paper Mario, we need to bring back Kawade, the director of the first three games.
@@almondjoy4938 Firing him and replacing him with better candidates such as Ryota Kawade would be a better option, honestly. Heck, the game wouldn't see restrains as long as Kensuke Tanabe is outside the game's margin. It's not even an issue of 'what would you replace Kensuke Tanabe with?' but rather just 'kicking out that guy'.
That being said, Kensuke Tanabe has been working for Nintendo for a while already, so seeing him retire during this decade (a window for one or two Paper Mario games under restrictions) is also viable. And hoo boy, just imagine Nintendo's official tweet being filled with messages from people claiming they're glad Kensuke Tanabe retired. Gonna be such a happy day.
Great video. I will not lie and say that I have a history of also falling into this misconception and spreading the misinformation. As at some point, it just kinda felt like he was a go-to scrapegoat for a lot of Nintendo problems. And it was easy to point fingers and be like, "OK Boomer". But even I understand that he's not singlehandedly responsible for the problems of Modern Mario RPGs. He's not some bane to Mario's brand as people make him out to be. I will say he isn't a perfect game dev by any means... But I will admit we can be too hard on him at times.
so what your saying is that Miyamoto has been getting unnecessary hate for people assuming he hates story.... and that we should blame Intelligence system for being lazy bastards.
I'm so upset right now that Arlo, a youtuber with a much bigger reach than you, just posted a video propagating the same exact point you spent 30 minutes debunking, and it got more views in 2 hours than this video did in 11 months Honestly, this kinda just makes me want to report his video for misinformation.
@@traviscunningham7062 i wouldn’t go that far but i can see where you’re coming from though some of his views are like nitpicking nowadays like uhh why wasn’t the game like this or couldn’t they have fixed it by doing this type of stuff
Yeah, I do agree that Miyamoto has gotten way too much hate because of the misinformation. You can like/not like certain games in the entire Mario franchise, but to say that Miyamoto is the one that is being restrictive with the Mario series is just absolute BS. And as mentioned, the Mario movie being confirmed to be in production pretty much shot that whole 'Miyamoto is restrictive' argument in the foot. And even then, it's still way too early to judge how the movie is going to turn out. All we know is the casting and that is it. There has not even been a teaser, so we have to clue what the plot is going to be. I have my problems with the casting choice, but it's not enough to paint my whole opinion on the film as that would be shallow. Moral of the Video: Stop criticizing Miyamoto when he has had little involvement in the franchise for a decade. If people actually did their research, then they would have known this!
Very good video. Nice to have the air cleared on widely spread things like this. Curious on if his feelings on Starfox and f-zero needing innovation to be worth continuing have changed since he last addressed them (afaik) and if you've covered that or plan to
The idea that Miyamoto hates story reminds me so much of the rushed game for ever bad quote that he never said. This was a very eye opening video for me to see. I truly hope more people see this video
I've been here for a long time with your PM format, and I love your PM videos the most as it's how I started with your channel. But just wanted to say, I'm fine with the gameplay more approach for Mario going onwards after Galaxy 2, but the problem is we don't really have a alternative for those like me who want deeper Mario stories / expanded ones anymore because of Paper Mario's current problem and becoming the norm, there's also the fact that they've never tried another story aside from Galaxy other than the old tired cliche of Peach is Kidnapped, go stop Bowser, at least Origami King had introduced Olly, which is a step up from Color Splash ig.
I remember a few of the things you've quoted here, but this video is full of stuff I never knew anything about. Beautifully in depth and well crafted throughout, so thank you for being so informative.
I completely agree on this video on Miyomoto, however….how do you feel about his very explicit rules of no story in Link’s Crossbow training? A game that was originally supposed to be a majoras mask style sequel to twilight Princess?
I was almost convinced that this narrative was actually true. Until I saw your channel and by doing more research. This video helped a lot and reaffirms the facts. Thanks, SuperMarioT.
If anyone "killed" Paper Mario, it was Kensuke Tanabe. He's also the man who said regarding Chibi-Robo! Zip Lash "buy this garbage or we're killing the series". Okay, it wasn't worded like that. He's regarded as authoritarian and known to explode with passion. Retro Studios and him weren't on friendly terms either. I really liked Origami King, but whole Miyamoto hates story and killed Paper Mario nonsense needs to stop. Miyamoto was "kicked upstairs" to a powerless consulting role within the company after Star Fox Zero's failure.
@@ranpan6082 I heard about his time at Retro. He wouldn't let anyone challenge his creative decisions. As for the ZipLash thing, it's absolutely scummy to guilt trip fans into buying something they don't want in order to get things they do want. That's a hostage situation right there. I already had reservations about Origami King, but hearing Tanabe's interviews and claims, that really set me off.
@@Dragular In regards to Chibi-Robo!, it's also sad because while nothing has been made official, all the signs point towards Skip being no more and the series being effectively dead. I was cautiously optimistic at the reveal, grew concerned as I saw more of the game, then to angry when I saw the interview. But this was also 2020 and Nintendo went dark. Last game I played was Luigi's Mansion 3 and I'm not a Pokemon or Animal Crossing fan, so Origami King became my next game to buy because I wanted something new to play that appealed to me while hoping for the Mario blowout. And I ended up enjoying it, despite it not being what I wanted.
@@ranpan6082 That's fair. Yeah, it's a shame Chibi Robo seems to be pretty much dead. I haven't played it yet, but from what I've heard, it's a really charming series. As for Origami King, I did enjoy the game more than I thought, but I had so many other problems that I just find the game okay. Still leagues better than Sticker Star and Color Splash though.
@@Dragular Trying to get into the series will be tough, considering the prices of retro games. I saw a copy for the GameCube original last year for sale for over three hundred dollars. Color Splash would've felt far better without the annoying game-pad functionality and tedious elements to battle enemies. Happy that I could play Origami King all the way through with a normal controller, no weird gimmicks. I treat the game as a puzzle game and it's own thing. I would compare it to Mario Party 9, which I really liked back in 2012 when I played it, but after going back to it after over eight years, I'm way less fond of it.
I’m 40 years old and i’ve never heard this rumor/theory/idea. It doesn’t make any sense on the surface. Wanting to keep a story simple doesn’t mean there is no story. Some of our greatest stories in the history of human kind are very simple “save the damsel” stories. St. George & the Dragon, the Iliad; or an adventure with a simple goal, like getting home in the Odyssey or finding the cup in the Grail legends. Simple stories can stay simple, or expand into something greater. Mario keeps their stories simple, Legend of Zelda turns them epic. In both you fight the BBEG and rescue the Princess. I think Miyamoto understands the importance of scope and scale. My complaint about the paper mario series was the dumbing down of the rpg elements starting in the Wii one. I have the same complaint about Elder Scrolls doing that in Oblivion and even more in Skyrim.
@@scottchaison1001 I didn't say bad, i said i had a complaint. As a fan of RPGs, Paper Mario had more RPG elements in the N64 and Game Cube entries. The WII one had simplified those elements. instead of stats and equipment and experience to level. you get one use items, a few items that can be used, no equipment, and you level up from score. The game is still a blast and fun, but my complaint is the dumbed down RPG mechanics. I still recommend mario fans, or ARPG fans play it, but its not a standard RPG like the previous entries, Mario RPG on the SNES, or the Mario & Luigi games.
@@Kilthan2050 The paper mario game for the wii is called super paper mario just to let you know. Also super paper mario was supposed to be for the GameCube as a spinoff of the Paper Mario RPG games in favor for a ARPG game.
I started blaming Tanabe for the state of Paper Mario several years ago, he needs to go away or give fans what they've wanted for over almost two decades.
Very good video. I know people has been pessimistic towards Nintendo over the years due to many Corporate controversies from a company that could be compared to "The Disney of Videogames", but Miyamoto is not this "Hack" like people make him out to be. He is just the creator of one of the biggest gaming icons, one which he has not had much time managing over the recent years due to his age. I don't think Miyamoto even writes stories anymore, but is the best reference for Nintendo on how Mario/link should act in a game. I cannot Imagine Miyamoto himself Writing all of the lore and story of Breath of the Wild alone, yet People think he can write all mario game's story?. Miyamoto is just one guy: the "father" or mario. Miyamoto is just the best reference on how Mario is for Nintendo, not their story writers.
People like to blame Miyamoto because he's simply the biggest face involved with Mario to point at, It's like how everyone points at Todd Howard when Bethesda does something or how everyone was shiting on Sean Murray when No Man's Sky released and was an over hyped disappointment, it's easy to blame him for "killing Paper Mario" when in reality he had nothing to do with the decisions with those game's development, while yes he might've influenced the devs to make it more simple he wasn't forcing them to not add more story and new characters in those games.
please correct me if im hearing this wrong but it still sounds to me like it was his advice that lead them in the direction they've taken paper mario in, in terms of characters and stories and the eventual toadpocalypse. sure maybe he isn't the "mwahahaha I'm going to destroy all story telling and oc's in gaming" badguy they portray him to be, but it still kinda sounds to me like he killed it by giving them that idea. they aren't exactly going to not take his advice, even if its just advice, he's the guy who MADE Mario! please tell me if I'm missing something here.
He gave them advice, and they took it as the word of God, then he never stepped in to correct the mistake Tanabe's been making since Sticker Star despite the constant fan backlash against modern Paper Mario. He didn't kill the franchise, but he did carelessly give the PM team a pair of scissors, something meant to be used for constructive purposes, and sat by while Tanabe and co. tore everything to shreds. His advice still enabled what's happened to Paper Mario.
This. This video makes it clear he's only giving suggestions but these suggestions need to be taken with proper care. I imagine a incompetent studio or director might just shoot down anything dissenting from a guy with a status like Miyamoto, but instead, they should reevaluate the weight they put on him because some of his game design takes _are_ (arguably) a bit outdated even if he means well and is improving on it
Here's the thing, Tanabe seems to have impressing Miyamoto as one of his two primary goals*. Miyamoto did used to have more of a dislike of stories in mainline Mario games, and even Zelda games. Koizumi had to sneak in a lot of story stuff, and even defy Miyamoto more directly on occasion. Miyamoto might have changed his stance on this, but Tanabe doesn't see that. Koizumi himself speaks to Miyamoto's distaste of story in video games in the past. "And that was the way that I tried to work on and . A lot of the EAD games that do seem to have a lot of story, a lot of that came from my influence. But those are aspects of the games that Miyamoto wasn't nearly as fond of and occasionally didn't like." Then there is the fact that Miyamoto didn't like Rosalina, but she gets to stay because fans like her. Miyamoto: When Super Mario Galaxy first came out, I was a little hung up on why Rosalina was showing up when Princess Peach was already there. I thought it was fine as long as it was only Super Mario Galaxy, and we made her design so she's a little bigger. But all of a sudden she was a regular character in Mario Kart as just a regular girl, even her size turned to normal. Iwata: As they say, time solves all things. Miyamoto: If I think about it now, I'm like, "What was I so hung up on?!" I guess I was still green. (laughs) His stance may have changed over the years, but this idea that Miyamoto doesn't like or care about story didn't pop out of thin air. It's also possible they agreed to the no story thing before Galaxy 2 started development. The lack of story in Galaxy 2 may be due to the trouble they had in development is also a possibility. Oh, and just because he allowed Mario games with story to be made, doesn't mean he liked the stories or really wanted them. Hiroshi Yamauchi one of the presidents of Nintendo seems to have hated video games outside of the economic benefit he could gain, and saw all people who play RPG's as depressed nerds. As far as we know the only reason he had anything to do with video games is because they were profitable, he played at most Tetris and Go according to various interviews. He also thought pursuing grand stories in video games is something people don't want. Hmm, that sounds familiar. There couldn't possibly be a connection /sarcasm. Hiroshi Yamauchi I will agree that the ones directly developing the last three Paper Mario games are to blame for most of the issues. However, Miyamoto's old ideas regarding story in video games has been passed down to Tanabe and his crew. *The other being to remake Paper Mario into what he has long wanted it to be. There is a comment in the Iwata Asks interview that he had been waiting for around 15 years to try and get the Toads folding themselves into a staircase as a visual joke.
@@NuiYabuko Even if you take out my interpretation of the word "green" all of the other stuff is still direct quotes from those directly involved. None of that has been negated in any interview before or after.
Hey first commenter! If you ask me I don’t think Naohiko Aoyama ruined Paper Mario as much cause don’t forget, he conceived the art direction and visuals of the first game but had very little to no involvement of the sequels (only given a special thanks in the end credits of The Thousand-Year Door) until Sticker Star. The three horsemen and lady of ruining the series is Kensuke Tanabe, Masahiko Nagaya, Taro Kudo, and Risa Tabada. The funny thing is both Kensuke Tanabe and Taro Kudo were involved in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars as a Screenplay Advisor and Event Designer respectively.
@@bunsmasterbunny you’re probably right, everyone was throwing hate at her after what she said about Paper Mario having to be different from the Mario & Luigi games
:) finally a defence for Nintendo i keep seeing things about how Nintendo is b a d when Nintendo has been great and people only look at small losses. :(
@@dysbot1405 still doesn't change the fact that Nintendo fans are overreacting Hippocrates that get mad for the littlest thing Most of the time the only Justified reasons I switch online and lack of creativity on the switch and they get mad and Nintendo for getting rid of eShop for the 3DS when the two years ago the Nintendo fans were begging for Nintendo to cancel the 3DS so the switch will get more attention they are also extremely ungrateful like with 3D alstars I remember them begging Nintendo to make this game a when they finally did it because I'm pretty sure they weren't planning on it and when they found out the fans why that they rushed and made the game Nintendo fans got all mad because they we're not "Remakes" and they were ports for one they are not ports to ever came up with that idea does not know the definition of a remaster 3D All-Stars is a remaster a remake means polishing the graphics and adding additional content A remaster means in high-definition which 3D All- stars I'm not just being a generic Nintendo slave Nintendo has done some questionable stuff like with Animal Crossing New Horizons where it felt a bit unfinished in the end although I am definitely grateful we got the 2.0 update what year was almost finished they had one or more update they probably would have saved the game switch online is honestly is a really bad idea and probably one of the worst moves Nintendo has ever done switch online is really bad the pricing for the expansion pack is way too over priced it should be honestly $40 there are barely any games for N64 and Sega Genesis and there needs to be more things you can do that makes the expansion pack more worth it I suggest them reducing the price if you have the expansion pack like with PlayStation or having a free game every once every month but the Nintendo hates their fans is probably the dumbest debate better Nintendo fan has ever said because Nintendo really hears all their fans if they will make a game to please the fans then saying that they don't care or hate their fans is the stupidest argument I've ever heard Nintendo fans really needed touch some grass and get off social media or just quit being a Nintendo fan cuz they are not true ones
@@thelegendarymarioman8461 Jesus christ dude you should add punctuation. I never said Nintento hated their fan but that they were anti-consumer. Yes their latest game (Mario sport, switch sport, 3d all star, Skywar sword..) have questionable choice, overpriced, unfinished and a lack of effort. The way they fight Smash competitive scene and the hate against fan creation on internet, or just GilvaSunner show they suck. You don't have to be grateful for a billion dollar company for adding basic feature.
@@dysbot1405I mean this is youtube not school it doesn't matter if I don't use punctuation but I agree with the overpriced and unfinished game part but the rest I disageee. I haven't seen Nintendo take down a fangame is a while and the giliva sunner thing Nintendo is now uploading music on their UK channel plus they own the rights to that music and that's Nintendo of America doing that taking down music videos cause I heard ether their Bot that takes down videos is acting up or they are just doing it cause they think it's theirs
Well, this video you commented under's a good start. If you want examples of people either believing the idea, pushing it or both, try & look up various reviews & discussions surrounding Sticker Star or Color Splash, same for some Mario Movie discourse. I remember some of my oldest PM vids are among that group.
I don’t dab into much political stuff like this because I’m not much of a political guy, but this video was very informative. And I agree with others who say this notion of Miyamoto hating stories is so outdated. Sure I believed it once, but once you hear things like this over and over, you get drained and just don’t care anymore. I try to be open minded and I hate making assumptions on things that I have little to no prior knowledge of. Listening to this helps alleviate any tension I have towards certain options on gaming culture today. It’s always best to see gaming as entertainment, because that’s what is. Entertainment. Always has been and always will be, no matter what anyone says.
That's what I like about Nintendo game design, if you look closely the actual narrative of their games are being expressed mostly trough gameplay and visual story telling, Mario Levels are done in a subtle way that makes your imagination wonder how everything fits together in Marios Universe and thats what is fascinating, create something your imagination can fill and guess what's going on. No need to hire expensive actors to make voices and motion cap and insert a bunch o cinematics to stop you from playing a game and put the controller alway to watch something. Nintendo will always have this uniqueness to their games and I'm thankful for that. The real problem nowadays it's games wantings to be more movies and cinematic experiences than being actually "FUN".
So in reality the original developers were just too busy with other things & they have to get developers that didn't know what made Paper Mario special? Kind to think of it, where the heck did THIS rumor even come from anyway? Was it some mistranslation thing or were Playstation fans just that freakin' petty?
You know what would be cool? If Miyamoto returned to have more influence on the Paper Mario series to point Intelligence Systems in the right direction. If Miyamoto greenlighted the return of the Mario and Luigi series on Switch. If Miyamoto would have a good talk with Aunoma and supervised the next Zelda game, taking the fan feedback and criticism for these series to heart. That would be a dream come true.
How to proof Miyamoto likes narrative in games, just look at Zelda, thats some fat juicy lore, he just don't think Mario needs much narrative as other games
Come see my discord server if you'd like: discord.gg/GK7d8QZ
And follow me on Twitter: twitter.com/SuperMarioT_YT
Thank you so much SuperMarioT I’m tired from all the people, especially Captain midnight ua-cam.com/video/gbf37id8lEE/v-deo.html and speedsupersonic ua-cam.com/video/kU_C1Le3DMQ/v-deo.html saying that Miyamoto being involved does not make the Mario movie good
SuperMarioT I've always knew it was Tanabe and Intelligent systems falt for making Paper Mario the way it is and I always hated the modern Paper Mario games especially that crap game TOK and I hope I don't have to see another Paper Mario game again unless they give the IP to someone else and not have Tanabe in charge of that franchise.
I think what some people forget is that the “Mario sterilization” came from an era where Nintendo as a whole was trying too hard to capture the casual audience. It has almost nothing to do with Mario specifically
You have earned my respect
This is a Nintendo channel, of course you're going to claim Miyamoto did no wrong doing.
Miyamoto originally wanted to be a manga creator, before settling for a career in video games. I mostly see him as a person that focuses on the gameplay aspect and if it fits into the project he adds a story.
When Japanese people said SPM didn’t have a great story (only 1% disagreed). Feel like that was the turning point for the rpg’s.
@@galfinsp7216 That game also playfully criticized otaku culture during one part of the story. Considering how big it is over there I suppose that soured a few players.
@@galfinsp7216 That's not what happened. Only 1% said the story was interesting doesn't mean 99% said it was uninteresting. It just means only 1% indulged in that question.
@@bunsmasterbunny makes me wonder if the NSMB sub series convinced Nintendo to push the brand the late 00s, mid 10s
As a reminder to what the Club Nintendo surveys were, after filling out the initial survey on why you got the game, you got a post-play survey. This survey included how high you rated the game, what type of audience you think it is suited for (similar to the review system on 3DS/Wii U eShop), how likely you would recommend and if you recommended already with the final couple questions asking in free response what did you like about and what disliked about the game. As with most surveys, most people know that a good chunk of the responses are mostly useless. However, there should still be a decent chunk of people responding in decent faith. SPM not even getting 1% of responses saying they liked the story gives a sign that story doesn't help sell these games. Yes Nintendo should have made better surveys but, there is a base level of information that can be obtained from this kind of survey
Miyamoto: *"It's fine without a sto-"*
Tanabe: *"Got it, ZERO NARRATIVE FROM NOW ON"*
It’s so painfully clear that Tanabe single-handedly fucked up PM that its obnoxious to see people still blame Miyamoto
I always feel like his advice was "Make the gameplay/battle system fun and not rely on the story as the only form of entertainment." The new PM games fail to do even that so it's clear that his advice wasn't even followed to the letter.
@@amongstus4418 exactly. Miyamoto never said “I don’t want a story”. He just wanted to make sure the gameplay was fun enough that the game could be enjoyable as it’s own thing without relying on a story to carry it
How do the games not have narratives, exactly? Also, he seems much more adamant in the Japanese text.
@@NuiYabuko If you're talking about the mainline games, compare how the story is told and how games like Sonic Adventure is told...there's implicit narrative to a degree but there's no development of stuff per se rather than progression to your goal.
Not that it's necessarily bad (they're very good "episodic games" rather than "serialized games"), but that's the meaning not having too much narrative.
I am not gonna lie, I was subscribed to the "Miyamoto doesn't like narrative idea" for a while until I watched some of your Paper Mario videos. It was just this easy rumor to spread around. It feels like people don't understand the concept of people's philosophy on certain things changing over time and that something said over a decade ago wouldn't be reflective of how a person feels today.
Same.
It doesn't really matter if someone's "philosophy changed" over time or what-have-you...
When people see a handful of games run into the same issue(s) _constantly,_
they have no reason to believe that anyone/anything in the background has changed.
So, naturally, such things will keep being repeated. It's a self-fulfilling cycle.
On a less serious note, it's kinda like when Nintendo puts out a new system update.
More often than not, the only details they give for them are "system stability" related.
Which then leads to people commenting the same jokes/memes when it happens.
For as long as Nintendo repeats the same actions, so too will others respond in the same way.
I subscribed to it for a while too.
It seems he was the one who misinterpreted his own sources. By looking closely at the interview, you can see that Miyamoto clearly had disagreements with Koizumi about putting story in the Mario Galaxy series. You underestimate the influence Miyamoto has, he has the final word, so it is outside Koizumi control. It is just a matter of reading between the lines-and sometimes it's not even subtle-. Here are just a couple of quotes that were conveniently left out of this video for people to decide:
Miyamoto: "I’ve always watched over him (Koizumi) to make sure he used those strengths (storytelling) but didn’t go overboard. Ever since Mario Sunshine, however, I’d felt there was something not quite natural about certain developments. I had, of course, talked about that with him all along, but when it came to certain central elements, there were areas we had each somehow avoided bringing up....When making the first Mario Galaxy, I had said Mario games didn’t need a story or movies, but before I knew it, there were quite a few movies and a substantial amount of story... Because I’d had that experience with the first Mario Galaxy, we talked beforehand this time about cutting out such elements (in Mario Galaxy 2), but I began to get the feeling during development that those things were not sufficiently cut off.
..... I had been keeping an eye on the action elements, and had checked the course designs, but I had mostly left the more theatrical elements to the team.....I knew I couldn’t leave the game as it was, so one Saturday afternoon, I met Koizumi-san outside the company building to have a long talk with him"
Koizumi: ""I would sort of try to find sneaky ways to get story elements in without them noticing too much.....These are aspects of the games that Miyamoto wasn't nearly as fond of, and occasionally didn't like."
Portions of the Rosalina's Storybook were also cut. But don't get me wrong, Miyamoto is an undisputed genius and i think he detected immediately the problem with Sunshine and his reasoning is very good. but there is clear friction between the two directors, as Iwata said"That’s been a hot topic ever since Mario Sunshine."referring to story in Mario.
@@visualizermusictracks At that point, he isn't really a genius, he is just a man who was blinded by what Mario was and what he was trying to get Mario to be in the Nintendo world. If anything else, I think that what he did let go of in terms of story with Mario Sunshine actively harmed the game more than it helped it. Honestly, by this information it sure does seem like Miyamoto had a lot of growing up to do and to see a much greater overall picture with who Mario is. I can see that from this perspective that people like Koizumi had a much grander vision for Mario that I think would've been really interesting to see. Of course, I am struggling right now with seeing a more complete version of the picture you are trying to make here, does this mean that Miyamoto made some mistakes in his past and now he is trying to embrace storytelling now? Or is he still *respectfully* arguing with fellow workers about why Mario shouldn't have narrative because it doesn't fit in line with his more mechanic-focused viewpoint on Mario? If the latter, then why did it take up until Galaxy for them to give Mario better movement options to be able to handle tricky movements between platforms (the spin jump *jumps* to mind) or why don't they add more Kirby and WarioWare styled content into Mario? You can't just say that you appreciate gameplay more than narrative, and botch it up worse than Ratchet and Clank or Little Big Planet or literally any other Playstation, Nintendo or even Microsoft game.
Yeah since Mario Odyssey, I could tell Miyamoto let the free reins on story go with Koizumi. He changed and it was great to see it. He's definitely past his old ways!! Glad Koizumi is getting control and recognition for this amazing contributions and his strengths!
People often forget Miyamoto was one of the driving forces behind SMRPG, the game that kick started the whole Paper Mario series
As for the IP team, it was formed sometime after 2007, and considering the spin off games that came out around that time you can see why pushing back against some things.
Could I ask where the info of the IP team began in 2007, because SMG1 did release in 2007, and I felt the Bland Mario Era only started around the 2011-2012 with Mario Party 9 or Sticker Star), I mean SPM still did come post-2007.
@@zjzr08 The other reason Mario RPG exists is because Square wanted to make an RPG that would do well in America, since RPGs at the time only sold well in Japan.
Both Mario Strikers Charged & Super Paper Mario came out in 2007...
Early 2007.
I read that Sticker Star Iwata Asks article back then. I remember reading about how Miyamoto said that the new battle system sucks, and noted how they didn't ask his opinion again later. All he asked for them to do was spice the original formula up in the first place, anyway. If they HAD listened to Miyamoto and made more changes, it may have been better.
Yet that's exactly what Miyamoto himself did with StarFox: Zero
@@AkameGaKillfan777 he regretted it
@@ultrawariowarefan1431 Does he regret how much he's tried to thumbscrew motion controls into games for over a decade now?
@@AkameGaKillfan777 no need to be sarcastic
@@ultrawariowarefan1431 I'm not
You and Arlo should meet and discuss this topic.
FINALLY an in-depth video about this topic has been done. For years I've been so tired of hearing the same "Miyamoto hates stories", "Miyamoto hates characters that he didn’t create", "Miyamoto is just a corrupt businessman", and "Miyamoto ruined all of the spinoffs!!!" despite giving practically NO proof towards this arguments and contradicting a lot about what he actually does. If he truly hated stories, Zelda would be entirely different and he wouldn't want Mario RPGs to exist nor a Mario movie. Hell, he literally outright states he actually likes Waluigi, but fans go on and say that he's just jealous about other characters being more popular than him, with once again, no proof. He isn’t just the guy who created the Mario franchise, and I really hope the Mario movie manages to shut all of the fake sayings about Miyamoto because I'm just done with this.
Not Cool Miyamotto
Also thank you for using my screenshot surrounding Rosalina's backstory! I'll admit I use to believe the myth, but looking at it now it really doesn't make much sense that Koizumi would have to sneak it in
I swear if you ask one of these people actually parroting this for any proof they'll probably either say "come on man it's widely known", or point to the Rosa storybook "secret". No videos featuring any recent Miyamoto quotes, no articles. Nothing but the fact they've heard it from other people.
This happens all the time unfortunately. It's very easy for the face of a brand/company to take all the blame when in reality it's often a collective of executives who are at fault.
@@lukebytes5366 Just like with Marc Webb amazing Spider-Man backlash when it was Sony’s fault
I'd argue every Mario game has its own narrative woven through the levels & characters. Above all else, I believe Mario is an adventurer. His stories involve overcoming obstacles & set pieces on a day to day basis, or whenever the Princess has been kidnapped. He ventures into locations & places no toad has ever dared attempt. (At least until Captain Toad.) Mario could easily venture the easy path & not bother with the obstacles or levels in his way. But he doesn't. He moves forward, tackling the danger head on, and depending if the player dies a whole bunch, eventually overcomes the challenges ahead. Every single time. Those are the stories Mario games tell.
Someone gets it.
Mario is a Media Artist. All of his "Games" are just Films or spectacles which are sold to the audience; With the audience being You: The player. Since Mario is a bit Narcissistic (Best example is Mario's Line: "Mario Number One!"), He is the lead star for most of his media and games.
Going back to the video, I don't understand why people think Miyamoto is Anti-Narrative. The first game has it's story and lore in the Instruction manual, but every other game afterwards Has it's story In game (Mario 3 being a play and Super Mario World being more of an adventure filmed on Dinosaur Island). Miyamoto Does like simple and easy to ignore Narratives, but minor narratives is not the same as No Narratives. I think Miyamoto likes simplicity because He was a huge fan of Disney Movies, which are often not liked for the Narratives, but for the visuals, emotions and characters.
@@ChillstoneBlakeBlast Mario 3 being a play isn't canon as it was only stated in a joke interview. Likewise Mario World is a real adventure like every Mario adventure (With even Mario 2 being Mario dreaming of a past adventure they went on.)
@@bunsmasterbunny explain Mario 64. Why is a Lakitu Filming Mario?
@@ChillstoneBlakeBlast He's filming Mario for the Mushrom Kingdom to see his progress in saving Peach. It's still a real adventure.
I didn't know this was still a largely accepted theory, but I can't say I'm surprised that people misconstrue his words. Interviews of his in the past have frequently been cherry-picked to put him in a negative light. The hating Donkey Kong Country quote comes to mind (and that one was a flat out lie). I don't know if it has to do with him being Nintendo's most iconic developer, or maybe the fact that people just automatically assume he has a heavy role in modern-day game development at Nintendo, but I've definitely seen it pop up more than it should. A solid debunk, though I would assume that most of the people who still believe this are just simply uninformed.
16:45 There you have it folks. It’s the IP team doing this shit, not Miyamoto
This really needed to be said. You could forget everything this man has ever done. Why have a movie if you dislike stories? If anything, if it’s something like a Genndy Tartakovsky work, that would be really creative. NOT TO MENTION, if he had was really bad with the movie makers, why would they be complementing his ideas in articles?
*If he
money
Well, the answer is Mario movie is a license to print money and looking for a reason for paper Mario to be hampered is pretty justifiable. Ultimately it's funimation and the passion for story is minimal
@@joeykeilholz925 funimation?
Movies aren't stories, they are meant to be visually exciting typically.
One thing that people don't get with Miyamoto with Paper Mario is that unlike Sakamoto with Metroid Prime he doesn't have his hand on Paper Mario. It's to the point that Miyamoto doesn't really seem to care despite his attitude towards stories changing for the better, however I completely see where Tanabe was coming from with not understanding what was wrong with early Sticker Star.
At this point Miyamoto saying he hates stories is so out of date.
People still say it because they want to look cool. Enough said.
@@buzzytrombone4353 Come on now, do we always use the contrarian/negativity reasoning for this, without additional nuance, most are probably just ignorant as they don't have time to dig in these stuff.
@@zjzr08 What are you talking anout?
Miyamoto? The same person, who made SF and Pikmin?
I always had a feeling the fallacy wasn't true, and it was great to be informed in such detail while also getting a grasp on how the Paper Mario series took its turn since Sticker Star. Though I do wonder if the restrictions the IS devs end up mentioning also apply to Mario spin offs these days, since I have seen people saying they don't have the same charm as previous installments and there's concerns of Mario Strikers Battle League suffering from it a tad too.
Great job with the video too, and I COMPLETELY understand being sick of a misinformation filled fallacy and wanting to spread something to help put it to rest, as I've had a similar issue with something in Xenoblade 2 that gets so much misinfo spread that I made a video partially about some time ago. Great job once again.
_THIS IS IT ..._ it's time to see what the truth is all about.
(And yes, I watched "Why Paper Mario Refuses to Change")
EDIT: I am going to say it (hate me all you want): "Liberal" Paper Toad character designs like _Vanna T._ from the N64 Paper Mario game do not harm the Mario brand AT ALL. Removing Toadsworth and Toadette from Paper Mario altogether after The Thousand Year door is dumb and should have _never_ happened.
I'm tired of Miyamoto being the damn scapegoat in regards to all of this and I'm glad that I can confidently share this video with OTHERS. Thank you, Mah d00d 🐧
I usually see this kind of talk pop up on Twitter threads (shocker) mainly dealing with Paper Mario and gets rather monotonous seeing the same misinformation cycle through the same crowd of people
Wait, people were blaming Miyamoto for the direction of the Paper Mario franchise instead of Tanabe? I always just blamed Tanabe.
Or how about you don't blame anyone?
Miyamoto has been a supervisor at Nintendo since the Wii era, I think his last franchise he created was Pikmin as well as he supervised the development of Wii Sports.
(Koizumi was also around with Nintendo since the 80s and 90s.)
With most of the old guard retired or already passed away (Yamauchi, Yokoi and Iwata)
Shigeru Miyamoto is one of the few of the old Nintendo guard that is still there but only just as Supervisor role at Nintendo of Japan.
I think the real blame is whoever is running the Paper Mario series since the 3DS and Wii U era.
In short, it’s not Miyamoto himself who did the restrictions at all.
It was most likely the collective executives or even the main Mario IP team who did that against Miyamoto’s words, as he wanted the franchise to be less rigid, not more.
Going into this video I started with this misconception about Miyamoto, but this video has changes my mind. One thing I would like to add is sunshine had a more in depth plot back in 2003 and luigi mansion came out a game starting luigi with a different plot back in 2001. Miyamoto has almost always had stories in his games. The only era I can think of we're the stories were more limited with Mario was the n64 and those games are considered good anyway.
How the media and fans viewed Miyamoto and Koizumi:
Miyamoto: MAHAHAHAHA! Stories bad, Mario should be bland!
Koizumi: I'll show big meanie Miyamoto-san that stories are good. I'll do it behind his back!
How it actually went down:
Miyamoto: I preferred the Mario series have consistency and simple premise, but it's nice to add creative liberties and deep storytelling, if you wish.
Koizumi: Ok, understandable.
Jokes aside, I kinda feel bad about Miyamoto and how his words been taking so seriously nowadays. And I always find it cringy how certain fans portrayed Miyamoto as villain when it comes to Paper Mario.
Except we have records of Koizumi explicitly stating he had to go and slip story elements in unnoticed.
@@Cerebrum123 Just because they were "slipped in" doesn't mean it was done with any ill-intent to spite Miyamoto. It's more like Koizumi flexing his creative muscle while under a strict deadline. If sneaking the Link and Marin love story in Link's Awakening was such a problem it would've been removed from the remake.
@@RoboticEdward The very fact that snuck story elements in, even after being told not to, shows his disdain for the rule even if not for those who put it in place.
We also have him state that Miyamoto does not care for story elements in games, and Miyamoto* has various quotes showing this as well. Despite SuperMarioT portraying Miyamoto being just fine with stuff like Rosalina, it's not actually true. Miyamoto's biggest problem with Super Mario Galaxy was Rosalina, he thought there was no need for her in the game because Peach already existed. He was originally only okay with the idea because he thought she would be in one game only, as well as admits that the reason he was hung up on her was possibly because of jealousy(the other meanings of green doesn't make sense in the context). However, she got a huge fanbase immediately, so she got to stay.
Miyamoto: When Super Mario Galaxy first came out, I was a little hung up on why Rosalina was showing up when Princess Peach was already there. I thought it was fine as long as it was only Super Mario Galaxy, and we made her design so she's a little bigger. But all of a sudden she was a regular character in Mario Kart as just a regular girl, even her size turned to normal.
Iwata: As they say, time solves all things.
Miyamoto: If I think about it now, I'm like, "What was I so hung up on?!" I guess I was still green. (laughs)
Miyamoto has applied the "no story" rule to Zelda in the past, but because Koizumi didn't follow the order for a direct port of A Link to the Past we got Link's Awakening.
Miyamoto admitted in an interview to putting a stop to story discussion on Super Mario Galaxy 2.
“Well, I put a stop to that at the beginning, this time,” Miyamoto said, and for emphasis punched the air with his fist.
Given his other statement there was probably an agreement made that Koizumi got to make Rosalina, but next time no story.
Oh, and you do realize there is a difference between someone liking something and someone allowing something, right? Over and over Miyamoto has stated how much he dislikes grander narratives in video games(especially Mario), something he appears to have inherited from Hiroshi Yamauchi, a president of Nintendo that disliked video games. He's the guy who got Nintendo into the business of video games, but only because he thought they would be profitable. At one point he calls all RPG players "depressed nerds", and probably didn't think much more highly of gamers in general.
*There is a lot more from Miyamoto that SuperMarioT either hasn't read, or glossed over.
Nintendo fans are not real fans
@@Cerebrum123 You're manipulating af. Like, you quote him saying "What was I so hung up over?" Do you think game dev is one person proposing something, then everyone agreeing? You think people don't change their mind?
Being green also means being inexperienced and the like. Being jealous wouldn't even fit with the sentence structure, but I guess it's easier to push a narrative than look up the meaning.
Miyamoto worked on SF and Pikmin. Like the first three Pikmin games at least have a chronological storyline. Also, the video literally says Miyamoto is fine when it comes to plots in Zelda games.
I never once thought Miyamoto was the main reason why not all of Nintendo's games have stories. Not all games need a story, but they're much more enjoyable if there's a narrative feel to them.
Like you mentioned, the fact that a Super Mario Movie is on the way shows us how much Miyamoto not only has grown as a video game developer; but allowing Mario(and other Nintendo IPs) to expand themselves in new areas!!!
Miyamoto doesn't hate stories or creativity.
He's a man who preffers that the game is fun to play before anything else and... technically even if the "use mario characters" is literal or missinterpreted... Mario has like tons of characters across the years :\
THANK YOU. This video is needed to clear the false air of Miyamoto hating stories and creativity.
Well, I myself had no clue, glad to know about this.
Exactly! It's Kensuke Tanabe the guy that has to be fired in order to give Paper Mario its charm back.
It seems he was the one who misinterpreted his own sources. By looking closely at the interview, you can see that Miyamoto clearly had disagreements with Koizumi about putting story in the Mario Galaxy series. You underestimate the influence Miyamoto has, he has the final word, so it is outside Koizumi control. It is just a matter of reading between the lines-and sometimes it's not even subtle-. Here are just a couple of quotes that were conveniently left out of this video for people to decide:
Miyamoto: "I’ve always watched over him (Koizumi) to make sure he used those strengths (storytelling) but didn’t go overboard. Ever since Mario Sunshine, however, I’d felt there was something not quite natural about certain developments. I had, of course, talked about that with him all along, but when it came to certain central elements, there were areas we had each somehow avoided bringing up....When making the first Mario Galaxy, I had said Mario games didn’t need a story or movies, but before I knew it, there were quite a few movies and a substantial amount of story... Because I’d had that experience with the first Mario Galaxy, we talked beforehand this time about cutting out such elements (in Mario Galaxy 2), but I began to get the feeling during development that those things were not sufficiently cut off.
..... I had been keeping an eye on the action elements, and had checked the course designs, but I had mostly left the more theatrical elements to the team.....I knew I couldn’t leave the game as it was, so one Saturday afternoon, I met Koizumi-san outside the company building to have a long talk with him"
Koizumi: ""I would sort of try to find sneaky ways to get story elements in without them noticing too much.....These are aspects of the games that Miyamoto wasn't nearly as fond of, and occasionally didn't like."
Portions of the Rosalina's Storybook were also cut. But don't get me wrong, Miyamoto is an undisputed genius and i think he detected immediately the problem with Sunshine and his reasoning is very good. but there is clear friction between the two directors, as Iwata said"That’s been a hot topic ever since Mario Sunshine."referring to story in Mario.
@@visualizermusictracks Don't say stupid things.
@@scottchaison1001 bro you even read?
as someone who, mostly within their personal friend circles and such, has spread the "Miyamoto no like Mario with story" narrative... my next stop on youtube is probably how to apply clown makeup lmao
almost immediately, i felt your frustration in explaining all of this, and i feel you're perfectly justified with it
At this point, I'm more convinced that Tanabe is more to blame than Myamoto. Because he seems more like he doesn't really listen to fans at all. At least intelligent systems have made games with stories before outside of Mario. if I remember correctly they also do Fire emblem so it makes me wonder why paper Mario doesn't seam to care about story.
I think the worst I can really say about Miyamoto is that he said 3D World doesn't have oneline co-op because then the couch co-op wouldn't be there.
They could have done both.
Look Miyamoto isn't against storytelling as far as I am concerned.
Like Mario Bros. 3 has a narrative. All Kimgs of different Kingdoms got turned into monsters, the kids of Bowser are to blame and stole the scepters.
Make a journey through those several lands until you get to Bowser.
This is a story. It isn't as in-depth as other games. But these are platformers, games living from leveldesign and skill of the player, not RPG's.
Well at least I hope those rumors won't get to Miyamoto. As in have a negative impact.
There have been many stories of great creators falling due to poor reaction to criticism.
And falling due to misplaced criticism is most certainly not something anyone wants to see happen.
"Miyamoto hates stories in games" - Made Donkey Kong, one of the first games with a discernible story.
Correct!
So because Miyamoto made one or two suggestions (suggestions, not even demands) about Paper Mario Sticker Star, people pointed fingers at him and ONLY him for what the Paper Mario series has become?!
... I don't even know what to say at this point.
Obviously he should be blamed entirely for Paper Mario, but he can be blamed for trying to halt Link's Awakening, Majora's Mask and the Mario Galaxy duology from turning out with more of a story (succeeding for Galaxy 2)
And if you don't think that's enough, Star Fox had the same story *for five time*. Star Fox, Star Fox 2, Star Fox 64, Star Fox DS (not the name, but I will credit the different character endings) and Star Fox Zero.
@@wubbers662 Don't say stupid things.
@@scottchaison1001 And how was what I said stupid, exactly?
(and ironically Doom 1: At Doom's Gate was playing, while replying).
THANK. YOU. This misinformation has NOT made mario discussion fun. I've seen this misinformed shit pop up again and again under my twitter posts whenever I want to discuss about Mario and it's so tiring. I hope your video helps mitigate this misinformation and can finally open people's eyes.
Yeah, it's just not fun at ALL ... and obviously that extends to the Paper Mario stuff. ☜ (↼_↼) Like I almost never talk about Paper Mario unless it's like HERE or related videos.
Because we keep going in this dumb circle...
Ikr. Even the mainline games have stories, they’re just simple like a old Nickelodeon show.
Ah well, Twitter discussions tend to get out of control very fast.😂
@@duragdee2760 Because Twitter is a home to a spectrum of weird people who are easy to point out from the way they wear makeup and style their hair and how they dress like they're giving some kind of political statement, almost as if they were copying the Joker, trying to be emo.
I would have jumped on this same bandwagon if it were not for the fact that no one ever cared to give supporting evidence. Thank you for this video SMT.
Fantastically researched. Miyamoto has been subject to lot of false quotes and untrue viewpoints over the years, I’d go as far to say he’s the most misquoted in the industry.
I was in the camp he hates stories until I saw your Paper Mario videos. Thanks for setting this straight.
And channel owner does the exact same to Tanabe.
It's disgusting, quite honestly.
Tannabe was the one who ruined Paper Mario storylines though
I swear, "Miyamoto hates stories" is the Mario equivalent of "Zero killed the entire classic Mega Man cast".
This easy rumor stemmed from one misinterpreted public piece of evidence that people deluded themselves into thinking both it and half the later pieces of evidence supported this one view, ignoring the other half that straightup say no to it.
I'll be sure to share this when I see someone claim Miyamoto's the reason for Mario's "lack of story". The man may have entertained that line of thought for a short period in the 3DS and Wii U era (and slightly before), but we can tell from Odyssey and Luigi's Mansion 3 alone that it's AT LEAST no longer the case now, if it was the case at all.
Yeah even early on, Mario 3 changed up the story and had you saving the Mushroom World’s kings. Peach isn’t kidnapped until towards the end in that.
Misconceptions like this seem more and more common place nowadays. It's really annoying.
Glad you made this video. Also, one thing I think people forget a lot in this discussion is that there _is_ a difference between a game not having a story, and it having one that either involves relatively few characters (or relatively few that were invented specifically for that game), is conveyed with little to no actual text (as with the NSMB and 3D Place subseries, as opposed to SMB3 and SMW’s narratives), or simply doesn’t get particularly sad at any point.
It had always confused me why Miyamoto had apparently as far as I could tell seemed so against stories in Mario games, when he practically created the concept of stories in video games back in 1981 with Donkey Kong, literally one of the first video games to actually have a real story let alone ACTUAL CUTSCENES telling said story (and it was the first Mario game too no less, making Mario the first video game series to even have the concept of proper stories in games in the first place), while most previous games were just pure storyless contextless gameplay like Pacman and stuff, and so this video makes SO MUCH more sense and really clears that blatant contradiction up and how the whole idea is more of an overblown myth.
To quote Chuggaaconroy: "It wasn't a cooperate mandate, it was just something he popped in and left suggests for...
They could have processed that request in many ways including throwing it in the trash."
He literally says shite hoshii, I want you to do, in the Japanese text.
Arlo when he sees this video and all the cited sources in it. "I'll pretend I do not see"
that’s unfortunately Arlo’s MO these days….
Miyamoto hating storytelling always felt odd to me considering the previous entries in the 3D Mario series did have some form of storytelling. Granted it did take the backseat and only made itself known via signs, Toads and NPCs & bosses in each level, but it was indeed there.
The way some of the Mario games treat their storytelling is similar to Kirby's. It's subtly there but doesn't fully make itself known until the tail-end of the adventure (i.e. near the final set of bosses). Or in Kirby's case, it's hidden in plain sight. You wanna know why folks often say "pause for lore"? It's because they often include tidbits or the backstory for certain bosses and makes it *optional* compared to most series. Even Kirby and the Rainbow Curse and Forgotten Land have *tons* hidden lore, but instead of being tied to the pause screen it's tied to the unlockable figurines and in Rainbow Curse's case a "secret" diary owned by Elline which adds even more lore but from her perspective.
Excellent video SuperMarioT and speaking about your video, I will put a fragment of the interview with the director of Super Mario RPG Chihiro Fujioka about a question that was asked if Miyamoto restricted his ideas or not.
Interviewer: Did Nintendo ever shoot down any of your ideas?
Fujioka: We had periodic meetings with Miyamoto, and he thought the majority of our ideas were interesting. He would rarely say a certain idea was “bad”; rather, he would point out how if we changed this, or re-arranged that, it would be more interesting, and more “Mario”-like. He gave us a lot of advice like that, which we used to adjust things in the game.
Another thing was that, before we even started making Mario RPG specifically, we had this pre-conception at Square that RPGs==weapons. As our conversations progressed with Miyamoto, however, it became clear that this would be weird for a Mario game, that it didn’t seem to fit. When we realized that, it was a huge change in the direction of the development. We had always imagined the enemies would have weapons though. One thing we did leave in was the hammer, which Miyamoto insisted on having. Personally, I think getting hit with a hammer is more painful than being cut by a sword, but… (laughs)
And to finish, I leave you with the 1992 interview between Shigeru Miyamoto and Hayao Miyazaki ua-cam.com/video/D5zMwOuhyHc/v-deo.html
Cheers, the Captain Hanafuda 🎴👺♠
Omg thank you for this video! I’ve gotten so much misinformation about Miyamoto being anti-narrative that I started to believe it for a bit, but this opened my eyes to a whole different perspective.
Will you be making a response to Arlo's video?
He said he's tempted to.
Yes he is
Remember when people were saying for YEARS that Miyamoto hated Donkey Kong Country? Yeah, that turned out to be completely untrue
still waiting for Guru Larry to actually provide a source for that claim
People claimed that Miyamoto hated Donkey Kong Country, yet he also comes up with the coconut gun (originally a literal shotgun) in DK64.
This video alone helped me realize Miyamoto is not as against story telling as I thought. That and he had almost no involvement in Sticker Star. Glad this video exists.
Keep in Mind that Miyamoto wrote the plot for Donkey Kong 1981. That game was the first Video Game to have a story
So to summarize the video, it isn't really a case of Shigeru Miyamoto hating stories so much as having more fleshed out stories if it were to help the games. If it can, he gives a thumbs up. If not, thumbs down. It is more that he feels that a story is necessary to achieve a desired outcome. :)
Thank you so much for clearing this whole situation up. I didn't know the whole story and sometimes really believed some of the points that some people made. Finally I know the truth and I'm so interested how the Mario Movie turns out. Maybe we should be just more thankful we have Miyamoto sure the stories aren't super deep but at least we have 99% of the time amazing and innovative Gameplay.
0:01 to 0:41
That description is what I go through when people say Ganondorf is overused as a main villain when he's not even the main villain in *OVER HALF THE GAMES IN THE CANONICAL FRANCHISE!!!!!!!*
Compelling discussion, appreciate how much effort you put into this.
I do think there are a couple of cases where you're extrapolating conclusions that can't quite be solidly reached with the evidence provided, I wouldn't say it quite reaches the level of proof that things panned out the way that you claim in a couple cases (Particularly where you're saying that decisions definitely were or were not made with specific people and groups involved or not, and then using that as proof of your claims, when the developer interviews didn't really get into those specifics), but, the fact that your conclusions are still broadly pretty reasonable with the available information gives plenty cause to doubt how concrete the existing narrative is. Heck, you're drawing those conclusions with the same evidence that most of the proponents of the anti-Miyamoto narrative use - that alone says it's not as cut and dry as they suggest.
To emphasize, that's not me saying you didn't make a compelling case - just quibbles about what constitutes actual proof to back up claims. For me personally, I'd believed that narrative to varying degrees before, and I definitely don't believe that narrative is correct anymore. Think it's more of a case by case basis with multiple people involved in decision making, and that people can't reasonably claim that Miyamoto is consistently against stories given some of what you presented here. So, yeah, well done video.
Glad this popped up on my feed! This was quite informative. I'll admit that I was on the "Miyamoto hates story" train myself. (though not "Miyamoto hates story" in general. More like "Miyamoto doesn't want deep stories in Super Mario games.") I guess it was more Intelligent Systems - or Kensuke Tanabe - taking the wrong lessons than anything.
Somewhat related, this makes me wonder if the same applies to original characters that were made for Mario Golf/Tennis. (Plum, Kid, Sherry, Alex, Nina, etc...) Did Camelot decide to scrap them? If so, that makes me sad. I liked them, and was lookign forward to see what would happen in Mario Golf DS and Mario Tennis DS. (that ultimately never happened.)
Great video! I have been of the same mind ever since the "Miyamoto ruined Paper Mario" argument became big. There are several other common Anti-Miyamoto arguments that have popped up over the years which are easy to debunk with cursory research. I know some things come down to a matter of taste and creative difference, so it is not always easy to make a scientific rebuttal, but you've done an amiable job here, and many of your arguments have been my own. Sometime, I plan to make my own video on the criticisms of Miyamoto and expand on some of your arguments, but your video was so well done I'll be sure to point people your way.
Also, one thing I noted is that storytelling doesn't always mean characters need to talk lines of dialogue.
Storytelling can be also wordless actions, scenes, every fine little movement and object and expression.
And that's something that I've seen being done successfully in Odyssey, LM3 and Origami King. Three different game genres, three different devs, three examples of how not always there is need of dialogue.
and Galaxy.
This opened up my eyes. But it also made me realize that if we really want Paper Mario to go back to the way the community wants it, or for either the return of the RPG series or a new RPG Series in M&L's case, then we need to back off of Miyamoto and focus on the ones truly at fault.
Eh, I mean sure the feedback was misplaced but Nintendo still knows how people felt about these games. Someone has been trying to subvert that over and over with pm
So everyone wants the same thing?
And here I thought Gamers care about artistic vision. /s
Been waiting for this one since you announced it.
Someone send this to Chuggaaconroy and Arlo so they can both shut up about Miyamoto hating narratives and ruining Paper Mario and Galaxy 2.
Chuggaconroy saw this actually & both liked it & came to this conclusion some time ago.
@@SuperMarioT Thank God. Thrb he could maybe finally retire his old running gag of "MIYAMOTO!!" and maybe aim his hate for what happened to sticker star where it should be aimed.
@@SuperMarioT Source?
Arlo is such a Thousand-Year Door rider and spreads false information to get Thousand-Year Door fans on his side and spreading Nintendo doesn't care for their fans is the stupidest argument made by Nintendo fans and big UA-camrs just to catch in on subscribers and views and the fact that he doesn't like Mario and Luigi just because of ttyd shows how thousand door has turned this entire paper mario fanbase into pure trash
I never liked arlo dudes too negative to the point that it feels like he's trying to find something bad, he said he didn't like Mario's character calling him an idiot
I appreciate how informative and how well the points and arguments are put together, but I wish it was delivered in a calmer tone
I get the frustration and understand that it comes from a genuine place, but I don't think it helped in making your points and it just made it kind of uncomfortable
Understandable & appreciated either way.
People who believe or push this narrative aren't exactly speaking from a place of serenity either. Can't expect the tone here to be soft when dealing with ignorant people.
@@duragdee2760 "Ignorant" Miyamoto involved or not, paper Mario has lost it's charm and it isn't Ignorant to want it back...
@@Player-jh4ko I'm calling those ignorant for believing or spreading misinformation about Miyamoto, not those who reasonably want Paper Mario to go back to its roots.
Its reasons like these that make me wonder why people think Mario being stale is a good thing. Like you said in the video, we wouldn't have a crossover with Nintendo's mickey mouse and Ubisoft's Oompa Loompas If they didn't want to. We literally got Mario strikers back a game about VIOLENCE may I remind, got a new entry. Mario games have some of its experimental charm back, and it also help them thrive in the end. So what's stopping them from going the full mile?
Battle League looks severely toned down from Super Strikers and Charged. We don't even have the Kremlings as Goalies/Goaltenders anymore, replaced with Boom Boom. Don't even get me started on how the other Sports titles feel watered down from previous entries from the GC and Wii eras.
@@espurrseyes42 Exactly. I may not be a fan of the sports games, but even I can tell some sacrifices were made to make them more "On-brand". It so weird how they their fine with making a crossover with the Rabbids but when it comes to their Spin-offs series, they watered them down to a point where its easily associated with NSMB a series that hasn't gotten a new game in 10 YEARS.
@@espurrseyes42 I'd argue having Boom Boom rather than a Kremling as a goalie makes much more sense for a Mario game such as this. Nothing was lost here from this change.
@@duragdee2760
It does, but it still sucks to loose a more "creative" character (one who was in the first game mind you) for a stock NSMB era enemy (yes I know Boom Boom is from SMB3, but dropped off the face of the Earth until resurfacing during the NSMB era, frequently appearing as a boss and kinda overstaying his welcome). It's even worse considering fucking Tanabe basically killed off the Kremlings and they likely won't be coming back in the DK franchise. So it would've been nice to keep one of their few Mario appearances intact.
@@espurrseyes42 Eh, I think it's unreasonable to write off something prominent from the NSMB era as stale or 'overstayed its welcome', simply because other material wasn't used ALONGSIDE them. People really take for granted the amount of material introduced in the NSMB era, especially characters and items (I.e Koopalings and the Super Leaf) that practically saw little to no use after their debuts.
Also, how is a Kremling more creative than Boom Boom??? Kremlings, from what I know, are basic henchmen from the DK games, whereas Boom Boom is a boss who has a variety of abilities, alongside a more fitting personality for a Strikers game.
Thanks for making this video. It’s been something that seems to be passed on as fact so it’s nice to see someone shut all of it down.
I used to believe Miyamoto was anti-story, but the thought of him being involved in Paper Mario didn't even cross my mind, and I did not believe in him cutting down Galaxy 2's story either, but I did believe he made it a reboot of Galaxy 1 to reset that thing
I have been semi enlightened
Thank you! That’s what I’ve been saying. Even the mainline games have storylines, they’re just simple, like an old Nickelodeon cartoon.
And even then, with Odyssey the series seems to be returning to more ambitious and complex stories.
@@davinchristino Odyssey had the worst story in mainline Mario.
@@davinchristino what story lmao
@@RealHyperHedgehog What makes it the worst?
@@bunsmasterbunny It’s lack of interesting world building, it’s complete disrespect to Mario as a character, it not taking itself seriously, and Peach angers me in it more then she usually does.
I absolutely agree with you! I'm glad I'm not the only one that has a bunch of respect for Miyamoto
Same. Mario games always focused on both stories and gameplay
Not to mention, you can do a lot with very little story. Super Mario Odyssey and Zelda BOTW (And especially the kirby series) is prof of that.
I think that the real problem is that Tanabe just isn't good at creativity. He made a game that Miyamoto considered to be a rehash of TTYD, and when criticised, he made an even blander game instead. All of his creative ideas boil down to adding a paper related gimmick, and he doesn't reuse gameplay elements from older games because he doesn't know how to innovate with them.
He just seems like a very unartistic artist. If we really wanna fix Paper Mario, we need to bring back Kawade, the director of the first three games.
And how are you going to do that, exactly? I don't see Nintendo replacing Tanabe very soon without him making constant financial blunders.
Apparently Kawade has been working in some Fire Emblem card game, sadly
@@Yoshiinite When will it be finished?
@@almondjoy4938 Firing him and replacing him with better candidates such as Ryota Kawade would be a better option, honestly.
Heck, the game wouldn't see restrains as long as Kensuke Tanabe is outside the game's margin. It's not even an issue of 'what would you replace Kensuke Tanabe with?' but rather just 'kicking out that guy'.
That being said, Kensuke Tanabe has been working for Nintendo for a while already, so seeing him retire during this decade (a window for one or two Paper Mario games under restrictions) is also viable.
And hoo boy, just imagine Nintendo's official tweet being filled with messages from people claiming they're glad Kensuke Tanabe retired. Gonna be such a happy day.
In other words, it's the IP team's fault. Which Miyamoto is not a part of.
Great video. I will not lie and say that I have a history of also falling into this misconception and spreading the misinformation. As at some point, it just kinda felt like he was a go-to scrapegoat for a lot of Nintendo problems. And it was easy to point fingers and be like, "OK Boomer". But even I understand that he's not singlehandedly responsible for the problems of Modern Mario RPGs. He's not some bane to Mario's brand as people make him out to be. I will say he isn't a perfect game dev by any means... But I will admit we can be too hard on him at times.
so what your saying is that Miyamoto has been getting unnecessary hate for people assuming he hates story....
and that we should blame Intelligence system for being lazy bastards.
I'm so upset right now that Arlo, a youtuber with a much bigger reach than you, just posted a video propagating the same exact point you spent 30 minutes debunking, and it got more views in 2 hours than this video did in 11 months
Honestly, this kinda just makes me want to report his video for misinformation.
I hate Arlo nowadays. I even disliked his Miymoto video.
@@traviscunningham7062 i wouldn’t go that far but i can see where you’re coming from though some of his views are like nitpicking nowadays like uhh why wasn’t the game like this or couldn’t they have fixed it by doing this type of stuff
Yeah, I do agree that Miyamoto has gotten way too much hate because of the misinformation. You can like/not like certain games in the entire Mario franchise, but to say that Miyamoto is the one that is being restrictive with the Mario series is just absolute BS.
And as mentioned, the Mario movie being confirmed to be in production pretty much shot that whole 'Miyamoto is restrictive' argument in the foot. And even then, it's still way too early to judge how the movie is going to turn out. All we know is the casting and that is it. There has not even been a teaser, so we have to clue what the plot is going to be. I have my problems with the casting choice, but it's not enough to paint my whole opinion on the film as that would be shallow.
Moral of the Video: Stop criticizing Miyamoto when he has had little involvement in the franchise for a decade. If people actually did their research, then they would have known this!
Very good video. Nice to have the air cleared on widely spread things like this. Curious on if his feelings on Starfox and f-zero needing innovation to be worth continuing have changed since he last addressed them (afaik) and if you've covered that or plan to
With the bad Gyroscope puzzles in Breath of the Wild and several moves locked behind motion controls in Odyssey, I don't think so.
Isn't it like how Sakurai only includes Kirby Content he made in Super Smash Bros. even though he was adviser on Kirby & The Amazing Mirror
The idea that Miyamoto hates story reminds me so much of the rushed game for ever bad quote that he never said. This was a very eye opening video for me to see. I truly hope more people see this video
I've been here for a long time with your PM format, and I love your PM videos the most as it's how I started with your channel.
But just wanted to say, I'm fine with the gameplay more approach for Mario going onwards after Galaxy 2, but the problem is we don't really have a alternative for those like me who want deeper Mario stories / expanded ones anymore because of Paper Mario's current problem and becoming the norm, there's also the fact that they've never tried another story aside from Galaxy other than the old tired cliche of Peach is Kidnapped, go stop Bowser, at least Origami King had introduced Olly, which is a step up from Color Splash ig.
Took the words right out of my mouth! Great Video!!!
I remember a few of the things you've quoted here, but this video is full of stuff I never knew anything about. Beautifully in depth and well crafted throughout, so thank you for being so informative.
I completely agree on this video on Miyomoto, however….how do you feel about his very explicit rules of no story in Link’s Crossbow training? A game that was originally supposed to be a majoras mask style sequel to twilight Princess?
His hard-on for motion controls is out of hand
I was almost convinced that this narrative was actually true. Until I saw your channel and by doing more research. This video helped a lot and reaffirms the facts. Thanks, SuperMarioT.
If anyone "killed" Paper Mario, it was Kensuke Tanabe. He's also the man who said regarding Chibi-Robo! Zip Lash "buy this garbage or we're killing the series". Okay, it wasn't worded like that. He's regarded as authoritarian and known to explode with passion. Retro Studios and him weren't on friendly terms either.
I really liked Origami King, but whole Miyamoto hates story and killed Paper Mario nonsense needs to stop. Miyamoto was "kicked upstairs" to a powerless consulting role within the company after Star Fox Zero's failure.
@@ranpan6082 I heard about his time at Retro. He wouldn't let anyone challenge his creative decisions. As for the ZipLash thing, it's absolutely scummy to guilt trip fans into buying something they don't want in order to get things they do want. That's a hostage situation right there.
I already had reservations about Origami King, but hearing Tanabe's interviews and claims, that really set me off.
@@Dragular In regards to Chibi-Robo!, it's also sad because while nothing has been made official, all the signs point towards Skip being no more and the series being effectively dead.
I was cautiously optimistic at the reveal, grew concerned as I saw more of the game, then to angry when I saw the interview. But this was also 2020 and Nintendo went dark. Last game I played was Luigi's Mansion 3 and I'm not a Pokemon or Animal Crossing fan, so Origami King became my next game to buy because I wanted something new to play that appealed to me while hoping for the Mario blowout. And I ended up enjoying it, despite it not being what I wanted.
@@ranpan6082 That's fair. Yeah, it's a shame Chibi Robo seems to be pretty much dead. I haven't played it yet, but from what I've heard, it's a really charming series.
As for Origami King, I did enjoy the game more than I thought, but I had so many other problems that I just find the game okay. Still leagues better than Sticker Star and Color Splash though.
@@Dragular Trying to get into the series will be tough, considering the prices of retro games. I saw a copy for the GameCube original last year for sale for over three hundred dollars.
Color Splash would've felt far better without the annoying game-pad functionality and tedious elements to battle enemies. Happy that I could play Origami King all the way through with a normal controller, no weird gimmicks. I treat the game as a puzzle game and it's own thing. I would compare it to Mario Party 9, which I really liked back in 2012 when I played it, but after going back to it after over eight years, I'm way less fond of it.
I’m 40 years old and i’ve never heard this rumor/theory/idea.
It doesn’t make any sense on the surface. Wanting to keep a story simple doesn’t mean there is no story.
Some of our greatest stories in the history of human kind are very simple “save the damsel” stories. St. George & the Dragon, the Iliad; or an adventure with a simple goal, like getting home in the Odyssey or finding the cup in the Grail legends.
Simple stories can stay simple, or expand into something greater. Mario keeps their stories simple, Legend of Zelda turns them epic. In both you fight the BBEG and rescue the Princess.
I think Miyamoto understands the importance of scope and scale.
My complaint about the paper mario series was the dumbing down of the rpg elements starting in the Wii one. I have the same complaint about Elder Scrolls doing that in Oblivion and even more in Skyrim.
What's bad with the Paper Mario for Wii?
@@scottchaison1001 I didn't say bad, i said i had a complaint. As a fan of RPGs, Paper Mario had more RPG elements in the N64 and Game Cube entries. The WII one had simplified those elements. instead of stats and equipment and experience to level. you get one use items, a few items that can be used, no equipment, and you level up from score. The game is still a blast and fun, but my complaint is the dumbed down RPG mechanics.
I still recommend mario fans, or ARPG fans play it, but its not a standard RPG like the previous entries, Mario RPG on the SNES, or the Mario & Luigi games.
@@Kilthan2050 The paper mario game for the wii is called super paper mario just to let you know.
Also super paper mario was supposed to be for the GameCube as a spinoff of the Paper Mario RPG games in favor for a ARPG game.
I started blaming Tanabe for the state of Paper Mario several years ago, he needs to go away or give fans what they've wanted for over almost two decades.
So Mario Galaxy 2 story situation was a misunderstanding
Yes
This video is my dream come true.
Very good video. I know people has been pessimistic towards Nintendo over the years due to many Corporate controversies from a company that could be compared to "The Disney of Videogames", but Miyamoto is not this "Hack" like people make him out to be. He is just the creator of one of the biggest gaming icons, one which he has not had much time managing over the recent years due to his age. I don't think Miyamoto even writes stories anymore, but is the best reference for Nintendo on how Mario/link should act in a game. I cannot Imagine Miyamoto himself Writing all of the lore and story of Breath of the Wild alone, yet People think he can write all mario game's story?. Miyamoto is just one guy: the "father" or mario. Miyamoto is just the best reference on how Mario is for Nintendo, not their story writers.
People like to blame Miyamoto because he's simply the biggest face involved with Mario to point at, It's like how everyone points at Todd Howard when Bethesda does something or how everyone was shiting on Sean Murray when No Man's Sky released and was an over hyped disappointment, it's easy to blame him for "killing Paper Mario" when in reality he had nothing to do with the decisions with those game's development, while yes he might've influenced the devs to make it more simple he wasn't forcing them to not add more story and new characters in those games.
please correct me if im hearing this wrong but it still sounds to me like it was his advice that lead them in the direction they've taken paper mario in, in terms of characters and stories and the eventual toadpocalypse. sure maybe he isn't the "mwahahaha I'm going to destroy all story telling and oc's in gaming" badguy they portray him to be, but it still kinda sounds to me like he killed it by giving them that idea. they aren't exactly going to not take his advice, even if its just advice, he's the guy who MADE Mario! please tell me if I'm missing something here.
He gave them advice, and they took it as the word of God, then he never stepped in to correct the mistake Tanabe's been making since Sticker Star despite the constant fan backlash against modern Paper Mario. He didn't kill the franchise, but he did carelessly give the PM team a pair of scissors, something meant to be used for constructive purposes, and sat by while Tanabe and co. tore everything to shreds. His advice still enabled what's happened to Paper Mario.
This. This video makes it clear he's only giving suggestions but these suggestions need to be taken with proper care. I imagine a incompetent studio or director might just shoot down anything dissenting from a guy with a status like Miyamoto, but instead, they should reevaluate the weight they put on him because some of his game design takes _are_ (arguably) a bit outdated even if he means well and is improving on it
This is a very informative video! Thank you for making it.
Here's the thing, Tanabe seems to have impressing Miyamoto as one of his two primary goals*. Miyamoto did used to have more of a dislike of stories in mainline Mario games, and even Zelda games. Koizumi had to sneak in a lot of story stuff, and even defy Miyamoto more directly on occasion. Miyamoto might have changed his stance on this, but Tanabe doesn't see that. Koizumi himself speaks to Miyamoto's distaste of story in video games in the past.
"And that was the way that I tried to work on and . A lot of the EAD games that do seem to have a lot of story, a lot of that came from my influence. But those are aspects of the games that Miyamoto wasn't nearly as fond of and occasionally didn't like."
Then there is the fact that Miyamoto didn't like Rosalina, but she gets to stay because fans like her.
Miyamoto: When Super Mario Galaxy first came out, I was a little hung up on why Rosalina was showing up when Princess Peach was already there. I thought it was fine as long as it was only Super Mario Galaxy, and we made her design so she's a little bigger. But all of a sudden she was a regular character in Mario Kart as just a regular girl, even her size turned to normal.
Iwata: As they say, time solves all things.
Miyamoto: If I think about it now, I'm like, "What was I so hung up on?!" I guess I was still green. (laughs)
His stance may have changed over the years, but this idea that Miyamoto doesn't like or care about story didn't pop out of thin air. It's also possible they agreed to the no story thing before Galaxy 2 started development. The lack of story in Galaxy 2 may be due to the trouble they had in development is also a possibility.
Oh, and just because he allowed Mario games with story to be made, doesn't mean he liked the stories or really wanted them. Hiroshi Yamauchi one of the presidents of Nintendo seems to have hated video games outside of the economic benefit he could gain, and saw all people who play RPG's as depressed nerds. As far as we know the only reason he had anything to do with video games is because they were profitable, he played at most Tetris and Go according to various interviews. He also thought pursuing grand stories in video games is something people don't want. Hmm, that sounds familiar. There couldn't possibly be a connection /sarcasm.
Hiroshi Yamauchi
I will agree that the ones directly developing the last three Paper Mario games are to blame for most of the issues. However, Miyamoto's old ideas regarding story in video games has been passed down to Tanabe and his crew.
*The other being to remake Paper Mario into what he has long wanted it to be. There is a comment in the Iwata Asks interview that he had been waiting for around 15 years to try and get the Toads folding themselves into a staircase as a visual joke.
Your manipulations don't become more true the more you post them.
@@NuiYabuko Even if you take out my interpretation of the word "green" all of the other stuff is still direct quotes from those directly involved. None of that has been negated in any interview before or after.
Hey first commenter! If you ask me I don’t think Naohiko Aoyama ruined Paper Mario as much cause don’t forget, he conceived the art direction and visuals of the first game but had very little to no involvement of the sequels (only given a special thanks in the end credits of The Thousand-Year Door) until Sticker Star. The three horsemen and lady of ruining the series is Kensuke Tanabe, Masahiko Nagaya, Taro Kudo, and Risa Tabada. The funny thing is both Kensuke Tanabe and Taro Kudo were involved in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars as a Screenplay Advisor and Event Designer respectively.
Risa Tabata had nothing to do with the series until Color Splash and her role was very minimal. I don’t think she holds any blame.
@@bunsmasterbunny you’re probably right, everyone was throwing hate at her after what she said about Paper Mario having to be different from the Mario & Luigi games
@@chrisgranger5477 She was clearly told to say that by a higher up. It's a clear case of "Don't shoot the messenger."
Would you fuckers stop painting targets on people?
@@bunsmasterbunny ¿?
:) finally a defence for Nintendo i keep seeing things about how Nintendo is b a d when Nintendo has been great and people only look at small losses.
:(
Clearing the misinformation around Miyamoto doesn't change the fact Nintendo is anti-consumer sorry man
@@dysbot1405 still doesn't change the fact that Nintendo fans are overreacting Hippocrates that get mad for the littlest thing
Most of the time the only Justified reasons I switch online and lack of creativity on the switch and they get mad and Nintendo for getting rid of eShop for the 3DS when the two years ago the Nintendo fans were begging for Nintendo to cancel the 3DS so the switch will get more attention
they are also extremely ungrateful like with 3D alstars I remember them begging Nintendo to make this game a when they finally did it because I'm pretty sure they weren't planning on it and when they found out the fans why that they rushed and made the game Nintendo fans got all mad because they we're not "Remakes" and they were ports for one they are not ports to ever came up with that idea does not know the definition of a remaster 3D All-Stars is a remaster
a remake means polishing the graphics and adding additional content
A remaster means in high-definition which 3D All- stars
I'm not just being a generic Nintendo slave Nintendo has done some questionable stuff like with Animal Crossing New Horizons where it felt a bit unfinished in the end although I am definitely grateful we got the 2.0 update what year was almost finished they had one or more update they probably would have saved the game switch online is honestly is a really bad idea and probably one of the worst moves Nintendo has ever done switch online is really bad the pricing for the expansion pack is way too over priced it should be honestly $40 there are barely any games for N64 and Sega Genesis and there needs to be more things you can do that makes the expansion pack more worth it I suggest them reducing the price if you have the expansion pack like with PlayStation or having a free game every once every month but the Nintendo hates their fans is probably the dumbest debate better Nintendo fan has ever said because Nintendo really hears all their fans if they will make a game to please the fans then saying that they don't care or hate their fans is the stupidest argument I've ever heard Nintendo fans really needed touch some grass and get off social media or just quit being a Nintendo fan cuz they are not true ones
@@thelegendarymarioman8461 Jesus christ dude you should add punctuation. I never said Nintento hated their fan but that they were anti-consumer. Yes their latest game (Mario sport, switch sport, 3d all star, Skywar sword..) have questionable choice, overpriced, unfinished and a lack of effort. The way they fight Smash competitive scene and the hate against fan creation on internet, or just GilvaSunner show they suck. You don't have to be grateful for a billion dollar company for adding basic feature.
@@dysbot1405I mean this is youtube not school it doesn't matter if I don't use punctuation but I agree with the overpriced and unfinished game part but the rest I disageee. I haven't seen Nintendo take down a fangame is a while and the giliva sunner thing Nintendo is now uploading music on their UK channel plus they own the rights to that music and that's Nintendo of America doing that taking down music videos cause I heard ether their Bot that takes down videos is acting up or they are just doing it cause they think it's theirs
@@thelegendarymarioman8461 Yes it does matter. Long, run on sentences like that make it difficult to tell what you're actually saying.
I wish the video have more views to spread the awareness.
Hi SuperMarioT, I'm new to this idea that Miyamoto hates narrative driven games. So what do I look up to see how this mess started?
Well, this video you commented under's a good start. If you want examples of people either believing the idea, pushing it or both, try & look up various reviews & discussions surrounding Sticker Star or Color Splash, same for some Mario Movie discourse. I remember some of my oldest PM vids are among that group.
I don’t dab into much political stuff like this because I’m not much of a political guy, but this video was very informative. And I agree with others who say this notion of Miyamoto hating stories is so outdated. Sure I believed it once, but once you hear things like this over and over, you get drained and just don’t care anymore. I try to be open minded and I hate making assumptions on things that I have little to no prior knowledge of. Listening to this helps alleviate any tension I have towards certain options on gaming culture today. It’s always best to see gaming as entertainment, because that’s what is. Entertainment. Always has been and always will be, no matter what anyone says.
That's what I like about Nintendo game design, if you look closely the actual narrative of their games are being expressed mostly trough gameplay and visual story telling, Mario Levels are done in a subtle way that makes your imagination wonder how everything fits together in Marios Universe and thats what is fascinating, create something your imagination can fill and guess what's going on. No need to hire expensive actors to make voices and motion cap and insert a bunch o cinematics to stop you from playing a game and put the controller alway to watch something. Nintendo will always have this uniqueness to their games and I'm thankful for that. The real problem nowadays it's games wantings to be more movies and cinematic experiences than being actually "FUN".
Just skip the cutscenes
@@AkameGaKillfan777 No
So in reality the original developers were just too busy with other things & they have to get developers that didn't know what made Paper Mario special?
Kind to think of it, where the heck did THIS rumor even come from anyway? Was it some mistranslation thing or were Playstation fans just that freakin' petty?
Probably one or the other, quite possibly both
You know what would be cool? If Miyamoto returned to have more influence on the Paper Mario series to point Intelligence Systems in the right direction. If Miyamoto greenlighted the return of the Mario and Luigi series on Switch. If Miyamoto would have a good talk with Aunoma and supervised the next Zelda game, taking the fan feedback and criticism for these series to heart.
That would be a dream come true.
I hope this video gets across these people who still believe in this lie. Great job on this video and providing sources that back it up.
I feel my third eye awakened from this video
i'm glad somebody finally said it...
How to proof Miyamoto likes narrative in games, just look at Zelda, thats some fat juicy lore, he just don't think Mario needs much narrative as other games
He takes a little more of a backseat nowadays. Eiji Aonuma is the one trying to refine the story.
@@AkameGaKillfan777 still has story