Babbling on a Sunday - A Follow-Up
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- Опубліковано 24 вер 2016
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A few weeks ago I watched Sunday in the Park with George. ( • Sunday in the Park wit... ) I promised to do a follow up. This is that followup.
Sunday in the Park with George
Music & Lyrics by Stephen Sondheim
Book by James Lapine
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If you're reading THIS comment below with musicals YOU don't like, eve after trying - that's how I'll know you read this far. 😉 Thanks for watching!
Oh, and would you click that like button? Love you forever. - Розваги
I LOVE Sunday in the Park. One of my all time favorites.
And I absolutely love that you don't like it.
I love that it has things that are hard for you to watch because they hit close to home.
I love that you question and challenge its points and metaphorical answers.
I love that.
I'm really glad that this is your reaction to this piece - it's a very interesting opinion of something. :)
DUDE. All this reasons. All the feelings and the struggle, the analysis. EVERYTHING he feels uncanny-valley-ish about are ALL the reasons I deeply love this musical. Bottom line: Sondheim is. The. Best.
YESSSSS we're best friends now.
I really love this musical as well, and it hits so close to home and evokes such strong feelings that I can't help but love it (not to mention the beautiful music!). The funny thing is, I'm a mathematician, not an artist. It's surprising how much carries over, but not that surprising if you really think about it
MrSamwise25 that's pretty surprising to hear at first but does make some sense after thinking about it like you said. Thanks for sharing
Good stuff. "It's a musical I don't like - but I kind of like that I don't like". That's perfect. Then the art of the musical does what it is suppose to do: make you feel. The worst kind of art is the art that leaves you feeling nothing.
“We lose things.
And then we choose things.
And there are Louis's
And there are Georges-
Well, Louis's
And George.” She never ever stopped loving George... she just couldn't have enough of him. What caused her to love him also drove her mad.
"Sunday in the park with George isn't a musical that has its full effect on its first viewing." For you, perhaps. For me, sitting in the audience at the Booth in 1984, it packed an emotional wallop like none other.
This is long, as usual, sorry. So as someone who urged you to watch it again, I wanted to make clear that it’s not that I can’t accept or respect your opinion on this (I absolutely can) and that you don’t like it even after watching it under better circumstances, it’s that I love it so deeply and get so much out of it that I want badly for you to get the same joy from it, especially as a musicals and Sondheim fan. I mean, in writing a response I started watching a clip of the “Sunday” reprise and I already have chills and tears in my eyes. So it’s just the desire to share with you what we get from it, not to chastise or dismiss you for not feeling it the same way. If I could share the thrill and joy I get just from hearing the french horn come in at the beginning of the show, or when the bells start to chime at the climax of “Sunday”, it would make me very happy.
For what it’s worth, despite that I love almost every moment of the show and despite that it totally works for me and I don’t find the transition to Act 2 jarring at all, for me the things that make Sunday so indelible, so lasting, so soaring are the beautiful subtle moments that pack a wallop to me emotionally, like Dot singing “thank you George for that, and for the hat.” This moves me to no end - and to me that is the perfect transition from one act to the other because the genius of the entire first act and its character sitting in a painting on the wall being used as the setting, and then the punch of Dot finally understanding and appreciating what George was doing while also knowing (as does the audience) that even with the understanding it wouldn’t have worked for them as a functioning relationship… and all in that one line… it blows me away. And “I could look at him/her forever.” and “I would be so pleased” in Move On, and so many other moments … those happen to be ones with Dot and George but there’s plenty of others that are between other characters, “I’ll draw us now before we fade, mother”, and on themes/discussion of love, art, creation, work.
Even moments like “I like the one in the light hat”. And the subjects bowing to the struggling artist, and singing “As we pass through our perfect park made of flecks of light and dark and parasols” … and the theme of George’s “bum bum bum” quick in Color and Light vs slow in Sunday… and how much attention and care he can give Dot when arranging the finale tableau for the painting but can’t in real life… and how Dot mocks and obsesses over why he was painting a monkey in a cage, and while George and Dot are staring into each other’s eyes in at the musical climax of “Sunday”, the monkey rises from ground so she can be holding it in the painting! The emotion! The pay off!
And the vocal arrangements!
And I find that so much is said in the music… for such a word-centric writer like Sondheim, I feel like in this show there is so much said in the music around or between the words, and it starts in Dot’s first song, the music that comes after “but most George… of all……..”, and it’s the music in Finishing the Hat, the intensifying string music that comes after “studying a face…”, and the whole thing concluding with “look I made a hat where there never was a hat” - on it’s own is so profound, but then when it pays off unexpectedly in Act 2 when does thanks for him the hat… amazing. And then when he’s reading her own notes and says “Dot I cannot read this word…” and she says “Harmony” and then the music goes, oh man. (and then knowing the difference and similarity between how George’s “Harmony” in the “Sunday” of Act 1 is meant vs how Dot’s is meant in Act 2). It’s like the whole conflict and cosmic resolution of their unresolved connection to each other, all right there.
And even the book… the way their entire break up happens after the passionate Color and Light, and exists only in
Dot: Should I wear my red dress or blue?
George: Red.
Dot: Aren’t you going to clean up?
George: Why?
Dot: The follies… George…
George: I have to finish the hat.
And also the relationship between Dot and Yvonne. One of the best things about the show.
It’s just the kind of layers, the kind of subtle stuff with clever AND emotional payoff that you get in almost no other musical.
And the *concept* it so genius - I’m still not over the fact that music is based off of George’s brush strokes making the painting that the show exists inside of. And that after they are broken up and she has moved to America, George can still place her in his painted world as he sees it and she is there forever. Can you tell I like this show?
P.S. I am fully with you on the conflicted feelings i have about a great musical that somehow needs a second or third viewing/listening to appreciate when it should be able to be appreciated in the first viewing. But I think it’s really key to acknowledge that the nature of the way you first experienced it is not the best way or the way it was intended to be experienced. Obviously you’re not in a theater seeing it live, which is the intention… but you’re also watching it on a small screen, with the lights on, I don’t know how good or bad your sound system is but that has a big affect too, and you are watching it with the intention to have an opinion to share right after or during. Under those circumstances, I don’t think there’s any way the musical had a chance to work whatever magic it might work on you or engage you to whatever extent it would. So I don’t think it’s fair to assume it not working on you the first time is the shows fault (even if it never would have worked), or to assess that Sunday in the Park as a musical didn’t work upon first viewing and *needs* at least one more (and that it is unforgivable), because you’ll never know what effect it might have had if you’d watched it without all those elements that automatically distance you from the show. But regardless... in terms of a show working on first viewing -- let me just saying, I loved 30 Rock when I first saw it, but I love it infinitely more upon repeated viewings - same with The Simpsons and Seinfeld and Arrested Development etc. Some of the best shows you like first and love second/third. I don't take away from them for that being true. And I personally (of course) think Sunday works on first viewing but gets even better, deeply better, upon repeated viewings and listenings.
I watched this musical for the first time on a bus, just after my grandma died. I was a snottery mess.
Then I rewatched it, and I found it difficult to like the main character.
But then I watched it again. And then I rewatched the " putting it together" section about a hundred times.
And then I rewatched again. I don't know what draws me to this musical. La Grande Jatte was my favourite painting growing up. Mandy Patinkin and Bernadette Peters have been favourites of mine before I got in to Broadway musicals. (Mandy Patinkin from Dead Like Me, Bernadette from a concert video Hey Mr Producer) so there are lots of reasons to be fondly disposed to parts of this, but I cannot quite explain why I love the Whole.
I understand what people mean to say when they call Sunday Sondheim's most autobiographical work, but it's a misnomer. After all, he's never been a French painter in the 19th Century. What they're really trying to say is that this is his most personal statement piece.
I understand your discomfort. My (ex-)husband was a music critic and he told me that he was uncomfortable with me reading (and seeing) High Fidelity. It hit just too close home.
Sunday in the Park with George is one of my faves for what it says about art, making art, and history’s connection to art of the past. It has a angsty seriousness to it that I responded to when I first saw it, so my opinion is colored by that. Seeing it now, three decades later, I might not enjoy it as much.
I absolutely agree with you that the “repeated viewings” advice is not appropriate. A musical needs to stand on its own in the first viewing.
Sunday was the only Sondheim musical I saw on Broadway in its original run with the original cast, and it has a very special place in my heart. This was an excellent video, because you talked about a piece of criticism that's usually left out: whether the critic just plain feels good watching the thing. Thanks for teasing out that thread. Also, I've been unable to do that meme where you have to pick three fictional characters who define you. During your video, I realized that George from "Sunday" is one of them.
I can’t remember my first viewing of Sunday; bought it as a middle schooler obsessed with Bernadette Peters, and i’m 34 now, so i’m like 2 decades removed from initial impression - but i do love it. To me, it just captures so many things - when i watch it i see someone who creates so much beauty who doesn’t really like how he is, but can’t change, and maybe shouldn’t. Beautiful is such a moving song, an attempt to communicate love between people speaking different languages. The second act is a story about feeling lost, and trying to find some sort of meaning. It all just resonates with me. I’m no artist (i’m a lawyer which is like an anti-artist) but i have always thought that sunday was really a show about trying to connect with the world in a meaningful way, and how hard that can be, and - words just fail me. There’s a sad and beautiful quality to the show that for me makes it a great work of art.
What I think is maybe unique in my thinking is that "Finishing The Hat" is always talked about in these terms of the struggle and obsessions of the artist, and blah blah blah blah, and I get that layer of the number, but to me, none of that was actually the point. For all those Sundays, George had Dot posing in the hot sun. He was focused on how light worked in art. In the final painting, the depictions of Dot are not only wearing hats, but also carrying parasols. "Finishing the Hat" was his obsession not because it represented the artist's obsession, but because it was meant to be a perfect gift for Dot. The expression of his understanding of what he put her through, and the expression of an apology in the way he knew how...
I understand what you mean about seeing your own life in the show. Personally, I like musicals that are like that for me, even if it is tragic lol
Very eloquent and respectable response to Sunday. I appreciate your candid truth as to how you see the resonance of elements of the story to your own. I really enjoy this particular piece and respect that you don't. The beauty of music and art is that it brings us together, in a forum, to share dialog. And that YOU have done. Cheers...
Can Tommy just do a Master Class on theatrical analysis?
Pleaaase, Mr. Mash!
You just made me laugh out loud when you admitted you still didn't like it. Your comedy stylings shine here, handsome. :)
In response to the video content, I want to say I'm one of the ones who suggested a re-watch and from that, I see that you have the same issue with the show.
it's a mirror. a hideously honest, unflattering mirror that is showing you from a 3rd person perspective the self-destructive nature of the creative stream of consciousness we inhabit. And I hate that. But I love to hate it, because there, on that screen, is the proof that I'm not alone. In a world where I often feel alienated by (what I call) looking behind the curtain of life, it creates a sensual, voyeuristic pleasure to see that someone knows what it's like to be me. Gets the struggle and screws up a lot of the things he wants in pursuit of that gnawing hunger to make art.
You're a fabulous man, and long may you continue. 😊
Only YOU on UA-cam could provide such an in-depth analysis of a show. And I agree with you, that I kinda do and don't like it at the same time. But thank you for taking the time to artistically explain why. Thank you MTM for creating this channel! :) much love!
Anyone who dislikes a different opinion is not someone you need to worry about. You are insanely articulate and that is a gift to our world.
Absolutely the best impassioned rant I have seen on the tube for a while. You definitely nailed my ambivalence to this show (which is a truly splendid example of Sondheim at his best. Any chance of covering Passion or Pacific O any time in the near future. Or remotely, Saturday Night.
I feel your pain :) My dear wife and I saw the original production on Broadway - the first musical we saw ON BROADWAY. I was blown away by it - but we almost left at the intermission. It was SO overwhelming and yet compelling. I still find it almost impossible to watch from beginning to end - yet I still love it for its daring approach. It exemplifies the problem of many if not most of Sondheim's works - the songs are always better than the book. That's why there so many compilations of his songs and remounted cabaret reviews of his great songs. I really appreciate your work and thoughtful, entertaining commentaries. So glad I discovered your channel.
I have to speak up about the books of his shows - by and large I think they are among the best books ever written for musicals. The characters, plot, themes, scenes and the songs all come out of them. And the scenes and structure are usually fantastic. To separate them is not fair, but also not accurate. But Sunday is one of the best books in musical theater, so it's very odd to me that the show could move you SO intensely that you'd consider leaving because you were overwhelmed (I can understand that!) but then turn and say the problem with Sondheim shows are the songs are better than the book, exemplified by this show. You are robbing Lapine of the immense credit he deserves for how the show worked it's magic on you and why. And it is a musical - of course the songs are going to be "bette" and stand out more and do more of the heavy lifting (so to speaking) than the book, that's as it should be and as it always is (even with a show like 1776 that has more book than almost any other musical, and with scenes that to many outshine the score, the score is still very good and shines ultimately).
I didn’t watch anything from Sunday until the evening Mr. Sondheim passed and I felt like I needed to honor the man whose oeuvre I really didn’t know and now I adore and near worship. I saw Sunday the performance at the Tony’s. Without knowing anything about the piece, that scene itself had me in tears. I immediately went to the original cast recording, listened to it, on a loop and couldn’t get over the visceral reaction that I had. Then, I had no idea there was a recording of it on UA-cam. Bless those who uploaded this masterpiece. I watched it and fell absolutely hopelessly in love with this musical. It’s alright you don’t like it. I love it enough for the both of us.
Oh my God! You just helped me understand why I don’t love it either... I’m a classically trained musician, and watching George Seurat labor through my own internal dialogue while I practice for hours... scrutinize very note. Disassembling and then reassembling every phrase. I’ve been doing that for almost 40 years. And to see a musical about that!? When I’m enduring it ... it’s MY tedium. For MY art. Seurat’s tedium? i have no dog in that fight.
Second, to the content of the show itself. I guess I love the unanswered questions, because it says the answer is that there is no one right way. You can't create the way someone else creates even if that person is greatly successful creating in that way. There's no guarantee you'll be successful the same way. But you also can't just repeat yourself for the sake of your audience and you have to be willing to do something your adoring audience might not like in order to create the way you need to. I'm not going to explain the point, as you clearly understand, but explain why it moves me in the hope that a bit of that might rub off. To me, that's a thrilling adventure. Act II George is terrified of the blank page, but he learns to embrace it as Act I George did, and I cry every time. As a creator, I know how scary it is to start something brand new, but also how exciting it can be (as Sondheim's own Little Red would say). To me, the show is about the two sides of the artist--the side that finds new artistic possibility in everything and the side that wants to be able to pay the rent--come to terms with each other. It can be difficult to face, but to me this music lives in my soul and becomes a reminder that all of us can find our way out of a rut. Both act closers will leave me in a puddle of tears.
I am amused with how I watched this video without having seen the actual first video review or the musical itself and yet I still feel like I enjoyed myself. XD
Thank you so much for your candor. I'm sure you know this, but there are folks out there who agree wholeheartedly with what you say in this video. Thumbs up, my dude.
"Guess what? You can't eat UA-cam videos either"
Oh man, that hit me deep
I don't really have a strong opinion on Sunday one way or the other. There are songs that I greatly relate to as well and that can alternate between comforting and painful to listen to. But I wanted to say thank you for the analysis and vulnerability in this video. It's clear you really dug deep to examine how the musical made you feel and put a lot of thought into explaining your reaction to it. That's the type of analysis that can be hard to find and I appreciated it :)
Even though I was one of those who said you should re-watch it sometime in your last video, I have to admit that I agree with your point that a musical (or maybe any form of theatrical art, I would add) should be accessible to an audience on its first viewing, otherwise why spend 100 bucks or more in the theater? However, I still have the experience of seeing this musical the first time 30 years ago and hating it, and then again just this year with a whole new cast and loving it so much that I was moved to tears. But thanks for sticking up for your opinion. Respect, dude!
Fantastic!
We have different, very different opinions, but I really appreciated how you discussed why our opinions differ. This is quality UA-cam.
But do you weep at both renditions of Sunday? It's such a glorious song and the harmonies give me such goosebumps. Musical heaven. Sometimes it's not just about the theme, but about the moments within the theme. Sunday in The Park says nothing new, really, but the way it explores those themes are so beautiful. It's my favorite of his, possibly just because of the fanfare at the end of Sunday. I can't think of it without getting tearful.
I just watched it and I really enjoyed it. It was in multiple sitting, but I've only watched it once
I think, for me, the central theme of the show is “art isn’t easy.” And, I think the reason the show is so intellectual, circular, and nonlinear simultaneously is because Sondheim and Lapine we’re communicating that the process of art, in itself, is nonlinear. I think that’s why this show is so polarizing for people. Some people like it because of the layers you mention, but many don’t like it because they come into a musical holding a certain set of expectations of how a story should unfold.
I admit that the Chromolume scene is odd, but that’s kind of how postmodern art of the 60’s-80’s was. It’s like when someone watches Mabou Mines’ Dollhouse or Endgame by Beckett. Shows of this nature make sense and are nonsensical simultaneously, but the only way to truly enjoy them is to let go of what confuses you. Sometimes things are the way they are and you can’t explain them or reason through them easily. Art isn’t easy.
It is a lot of fun to hear your thoughts on this. You are, of course, in good company when it comes to being left cold by the ending.
I think in order to get hooked on Sunday, there are three crucial moments that have to land. The first is "Finishing the Hat", and that one got you - the artistic process and the way it can displace relationship and family but still produce something valuable.
The second is "Beautiful", which again puts Georges struggling with family, this time his mother. But he wants to use art to make his relationship with his mother better. That is a debatable goal - but then again it's the best tool he has.
The final key is "Children and Art" - that is the heart of the show where everything comes together - the things both Dot and Georges learned. That's the point where I don't think the show grabbed you, and without that the ending is kind of random.
Those key songs in the first act elevate the role of art - which is Georges point of view. But "Children and Art" finally gives Dot and Marie their due and shows that family/relationships are as valuable and as lasting a legacy in their own way as art. Georges in the first act was a genius, but crippled. Despite that, he managed to send a child (Marie) forward into the world to carry on his legacy, which includes modern George. He also sent the paintings, the notes scribbled by Dot in the book and Marie which are all an inheritance for modern George. It gives George a boost that Georges didn't have - just as most parents want to leave their children's lives better than their own.
Modern George is the product of both Georges and Dot and in the end is able to synthesize both points of view into a balanced whole person - something his talented great grandfather could never have achieved.
That's my viewpoint, anyway.
I know you're a pro musical theater UA-camr, so it's your job to over analyze. Gotta say, the fact that you spent a couple weeks watching a musical you don't like over and over again, is indicative of a true work of art. Don't like it! That's awesome! But it was so captivating that, even in your dislike, you were compelled to watch, and think it through, and agonize over. You felt conflicted in your dislike. It challenged you. The songs are damned pretty! But who cares if you liked it or not. I think we can agree that Sunday in the Park With George is true art. So keep on talking about it!
I fell in love with the CD recording, but seeing the actual play left me cold. Although I really liked some visual treats. (1986 production)
Awesome video. You're so good at articulating your thoughts on things like this. I definitely disagree with you on various points (mainly that a musical has to be at least 80% accessible on its first viewing) but I DEFINITELY can see where you're coming from and agree with your points in many cases even if I disagree with your conclusions. Ultimately, I really like this show. It has its flaws but its definitely one whose merits I will always defend. THAT BEING SAID, I will never fully disagree with someone who dislikes it, especially someone who states their thoughts so well. Sorry 'bout the artistic struggles by the way. If it's any consolation, I think we all agree you give us something awesome for all your work!
My favorite musical in the world. I like it because it is not camp at all. It is intimate... you are up and close with the artist. If you have struggled creatively in any field of life, this musical is for you.
I found Sunday In The Park With George to be very difficult to watch as well, but at the end of it the feeling it gave me made me acknowledge that I did like it. I love the music and I find the message and the structure to be very powerful. That said, I totally get that you don't like it, I see why you don't like it and I actually fear that should I have been in a different mood, I might not have liked it myself. It is definitely a piece I would not show my friends or anyone who is, so to say, inexperienced in musical theatre.
I kind of have the curious feeling that my conclusions about it are the same as yours and the only thing that is different is the feeling towards it. No dislike from me, indeed ;).
See, I like Sunday in the park with George but I kinda agree with you.
How did you listen to Sunday in the park with George for 2 weeks in a row???? Oh my god! I don't have the strength to finish merrily we roll along! You have so much more mental capacity and durability than I! I can't deal with Sunday in the park very much either. You sir are wow....
Most of Sondheim hits way too close for me too
I only stumbled across this musical on UA-cam years ago, not knowing Sondheim or much about musicals. The opening scene got me hooked, and then I just fell in love with the characters (especially Dot), songs, style and feeling. 2nd act left me confused and a bit disappointed, but Bernadette and "Move on" had my heart. I was singing and humming the songs for weeks, getting on everybody's nerves :).
I get what you are saying about the message and the fear, I guess it just hit a slightly different chord in me.
Making Miscast videos makes you understand what an artist goes through? Okay.
Richard Biever Thank you for being the one to say this!!! I thought I was being an insensitive prick for thinking this, so I’m glad to see I’m not alone.
I think Sunday in the park with George is my actual favorite musical.. rn. But you’re 100% right, It is hard to watch. Because it feel too much like real life ,to me anyway. Its almost too long. It feels surreal & real all at once. If feels unresolved , while giving you enough to make your is conclusions THAT FEEL real enough. It HURTS SOO BAD TOO !! Just that back and forth between artistic ambition & reality that leaves you rubbed raw. It’s very much the musical mirror to any artist who’s prone to get absorbed by their art yet simultaneously aware of the reality of life & things like needing money & maintaining relationship and eventually selling your art like a product, like it’s not a piece of your soul you just snatched out and handed over for judgement.
oh internet, why are you so butt hurt when somebody disagrees with you?
Best comment my friend
I personally love Sunday in the Park with George, and it's totally fine that you don't like it. If we all like the same musicals it would be boring :)
Hi!! Could you maybe share what the journal articles are you're referring to at the beginning of the video- would love to read them!
god i love how you over analyze things.. i dont agree. but i dont care. i love that you care about musicals so much. its always good too watch your videos. keep it up :)
Life is a journey not a destination
Okay, so I just stumbled across your channel the other day for the first time and have now watched about 15 of your videos (and am in the process of viewing your 10th anniversary podcast right now). First, God I would love to sit down to dinner with you and hash out Broadway shows! While you demonstrate an educated and experienced perspective, you also talk about the shows in an accessible way. Here I sit in my home office in Virginia, surrounded by 35 framed playbills of shows I have seen (with more still packed) and long to have conversation with someone like you. So few people in my circle get it. Second, I have one comment I would like to make about your review of Sunday in the Park with George. You said that for a musical to work it needs to be 80% accessible during one experience and if it is not it fails. You made this comment in response to many people stating that the show needs to be watched and listened to multiple times. I do not know whether you will agree or disagree with this, but I think it is okay if an audience member does not completely get it during the performance, as long as it encourages and inspires ongoing thought and conversation about the experience and the show. Sometimes I feel like you just have to open yourself to the ride of the experience and worry about what it means afterwards. Anyway, my thoughts. I cannot wait to get caught up with you. I hope you continue to make videos about Broadway shows because your insights are well worth listening to and conversing about. (BTW, I hated Patti Lupone in Sweeney Todd, so there! LOL)
No,you don't get it. Just in referring to Seurat as being stuck in his"hobby" and comparing into making UA-cam videos, it is clear you don't get it. Art was his LIFE. It wasn't a hobby. An artist like he was paints because they cannot not paint. You definitely don't get it.
I first saw it years ago when it aired on tv, and I was like ok I sorta like it but not a lot because it seemed so long. So fast forward to about five years ago and saw it on Amazon for a good price so ordered it. So I watched it again after all those years and yes I enjoyed as a musical but there was that same feeling of not loving it. It's not one of my go to musicals but it's nice to have in a collection. Either a show wows you and blows your mind or it doesn't. The strange thing is feeling guilty because we don't love a show.
I pretty much said the same thing you said at at 3:57 as my comment to your first Sunday video. The audience shouldn't be FORCED to consume the art countless times in order to get a very basic understanding of it. I too am a huge musical-theatre-lover, and there is great pleasure in scouring the medium for subtext -- when the art is good. But this search becomes a tedious, somwhat pompous chore when the art is simply disinteresting.
I'd agree with your point about a first time viewing if you had seen it live, or given it your full attention.
I think it's good that you don't like it, in the sense that you're being honest with yourself and have analysed why you don't like it. Oh!, and as far as musicals I don't like, Phantom and Cats, but to be fair I grew out of Lloyd-Webber after discovering Sondheim. anyway that's all lol i like that this channel exists so that people can discuss musical theatre online luv ya bye
Also a side note, I don't like Sunday that much, but I can appreciate the songs/music.
I came down here to say this exact same thing
Are you a clone? Or a doppleganger...?
+TheMavieneT we better not meet because I don't want to find out
Fair enough, there are some things that are better left unknown.
i definitely did not go as deep in this musical as everyone else has so clearly done. may be due to my lack of Sondheim knowledge, or just the fact that i like pretty songs set to a story. Anyway, i like this musical and there are two reasons why.
1. I just thought it was cool how he created an entire musical and story around a painter and his painting. It in turn made me like the real painting because it seemed like i knew the story behind it, even if the story was fiction.
2. I didn't take away that there was a grand statement, or message, or lesson to be learned. I saw it as just a form of motivation to not hold yourself back from doing what satisfies you... which i guess can be taken as a grand statement, message or lesson.
IDK i think its a nice musical when you take it at face value.
....I see what you're saying, I Was actually really scarred you would break down during this video. I'm glad to see you make it to the end of the video alive
Very interesting to hear your view!
It comes through quite clearly that you're conflicted.... but you DO like it..! 😊
SITPWG is to me, like you've heard from many others, the epitomy of Sondheim!
I have seen and/or heard every SS musical there is and no other has had the profound effect on me than "Sunday"!
Being a singer/actor I so understand and feel the struggle for reaching the peak of ability and the sacrifices that follow that life process..!
I will not tell you to keep watching it any longer! Leave it for a year or two and return. I have an idea (and hope) that you will rediscover it, take it all in, in all its beauty with no personal barrierers!
Good luck on the path forward and thank you for a great channel & intelligent reviews!
So. What about PACIFIC OVERTURES?
I love Pacific Overtures so much. Maybe the most underrated great musical of all time.
I snuck backstage to see Pacific Overtures. Carrying an empty cello case. Not sorry.
I watch the MTM because you give us a thoughtful critique of musicals. You would not be creditable (or as much fun) if you liked every musical or actor in a certain role..
You "Miscast Mame' vlog was one of my favorites. You articulated and helped me understand something I've been struggling w/for years. What happened to Lucille Ball's brilliant talent??? She became disconnected from her talent.
Thanks for your vlogs. Keep 'em coming Mr.Mash
It is IMPOSSIBLE to love Sunday In The Park With George the first time around. Even the second....or the third.
My unusual path to this was that I was working in a stereo store when CDs were just being introduced. One of the very first SPARS code DDD discs (Digitally recorded, Digitally mixed and Digital disc) was this. Now remember, at this time you'd walk into a record store and they'd be miles of aisles of vinyl, but if you asked for CDs, they'd pull a shoe box from under the front counter and that was your selection. So I'm looking through my latest copy of Stereo Review and they had a nice review and an order form for Sunday In The Park With George and, being the first DDD disc I had seen, I ordered it. (for Demo purposes). It weirded me out at first, but being one of the few CDs I had, I kept it playing on my player. And it started to grow on me. So I read the massive "book" (CD size, unfortunately. But was was young and could read the teeny tiny then) and started to understand the "story" they were telling. Now keep in mind I had seen photos of the famous painting, but I had no idea who Seurat was or any history of the painting.
But along with selling stereo, we also sold video and I had learned that TV picture tubes were painted with tiny red/green/blue/ phosphor dots and that the signal was broken down into Luminance (B&W) and Chrominance (color) carrier waves.
COLOR & LIGHT!
And I KNEW this was meant for me. Add the dot,dot,dot staccato of the music and all the clever puns and truths and beauty and when it hits you in all its full glory, you are overwhelmed. A true masterpiece.
A musical I hate: Phantom of the Opera. The music is uninteresting, the story doesn’t grab me the same way other versions do (IMHO Phantom of the Paradise is superior to Lloyd Webber’s “musical.”)
But...
While I am a fan of Sunday in the Park with George, I don’t expect others to be, so I won’t try to sway your opinion.
I will say this: I have no idea if Sondheim himself would agree with me, but I think that those who look at the show and try to pick it apart, for its message about the process of artistic creation and subsequent public showings, are missing the point.
Yes, SITPWG is about those things, but somehow eludes all that. I’ve liked this show from the first time I heard the original LP album. I didn’t understand it all, but I knew something unusual was afoot.
There are clues. Like the Seurat painting, the score is made of limited patterns. The dialogue is full of repetitions. The Original Broadway production included ritualized movement (subtly referencing other Seurat works throughout the show).
Throughout the play, we move from conventional reality to fantasy or otherworldly moments.
So, what is going on?
IMO, Sondheim & Lapine, knowingly or not, created a piece of theater as mystical experience.
Dot is the first to demonstrate a form of mysticism when she escapes her dress. George, who repeats “Connect,” throughout the play, connects with the characters in his painting. George connects with his mother (Beautiful), during a fantasy sequence where she finally allows him to draw her. Reality alters & mysticism takes over at the First Act Finale at the creation of his painting.
Act II begins with the mysticism wearing off as the painting fades. Though it is fading, the painting talks directly to us.
Act II continues with the new George, same as the old George, but not, now lost. Unable to connect with art or life. No mysticism.
Second Act Finale. George in Paris connects. First Dot appears, then his 1st Act mother. Both ask him seemingly unimportant questions. They are only important to the one who seeks the truth. Both the mother & Dot have become part of the painting & therefore are one with the mystic experience.
Once George gets it, the remaining characters are revealed. The mystic experience has reached its peak. The only thing left is to revel in the words that start the play as the stage returns to its original state, representing:
“White. A blank page or canvas. His favorite. So many possibilities.”
The artist back at the start with more self- knowledge and a new blank page, to begin again.
I really agree with your reasons for not liking Sunday in the Park with George. It is very hard for me to watch as well for many, if not all of the same reasons. I can see why people like it. It makes me feel vulnerable because it IS like having your diary or innermost thoughts just put out there for anyone and everyone to observe and comment on. That is not only terrifying, but is almost alienating. My silly thoughts do not mean that this is a bad show. I just can't like it. I know I pretty much rehashed what you just said, but I thought I'd leave my thoughts out there.
I LOVE the score to Michael John LaChiusa's version of "The Wild Party", but as much as I want to I can't get into much of his other work.
Danny Bettencourt have you listed to Hello Again? I’m a big fan of LaChiusa too, and also have a bit of difficulty with his later stuff - I got hooked first oh Hello Again, still my favorite and feels more accessible, maybe because he’s using different musical genre’s purposefully, but the ballads are also stellar here. Also find See What I Want to See pretty accessible too.
(I am so sorry for the essay that this comment turned into, and I completely understand if you never actually read the whole thing!)
I think why in both videos you've had multiple moments of struggling for the right words is that there aren't any - there can be any number of additional reasons, but at the end of the day the only answer to why we don't enjoy works of art/media/both is that we don't have the reaction that the artist or creator wants us to.
Case in point: I adore all of your videos, but I've never (and I mean no offence here) been able to get through your Halloween "Spooky/Spoopy Songs" list... It just doesn't click with me. It's the same way that, despite seeing all the merits and understanding the hype I've endlessly in, I've yet to get more than a few songs into the Next to Normal cast recording, it just never hits me the way anyone involved intended. And that, of course, is completely okay.
Sunday in The Park with George hit me the first time I watched it and I've never watched it a second time. I have, however, listened endlessly to the cast recording and I sat down and read the script, pausing the music and clicking play where songs and verses began as I went - I cried just with the text itself in front of me, which I imagine is what artists hope for, that the work will still have its impact in its purest form.
That being said, you haven't said a single thing in either of these videos that I disagree with. If it doesn't take you in completely and make you fall in love early on, I can imagine that Sunday feels so long and monotonous. It's my belief that the transition between past and present is supposed to jar, but if it doesn't work for the viewer in question then that jarring will be an explicitly bad thing.
Honestly, of all of your videos, these two are the ones that make me respect and admire you the most as an artist and creator/person who discusses musical theatre. I want to find like-minded people online who are open to discussion about common interests, but oh dear gods would it be dull to only find people with positive opinions, or whose views synced up perfectly with either yours or those of the larger community.I'd rather spend hours debating the pros and cons of Sunday than ten minutes praising it back and forth with someone.
One point I've found especially interesting in both videos is what you've said about viewing art about art and artists, as an artist yourself. For me, it's a major appeal - if I come across a piece of work I have nay interest in, the fact that a major character is an artist of any kind or that art is a major part of the plot immediately takes me from "interested" to "currently watching." The fear of seeing yourself is something I completely understand, but as an artist myself (urrghh, I completely agree about feeling weird calling myself that) I'm compelled by seeing the struggles and developments mapped out before me, and the inherent understanding that it can give between yourself and the work
Back on (the incredibly unclear) topic though, I'm fixated on this video because you haven't turned around with a major change in view. Instead you've actually come back with a more developed version of your initial reaction, which is what I feel we should take away from repeated experiences with art and media. Not once can I recall stepping away from a second watch or read with a different opinion, except for the rare case of exhaustion robbing a piece of its actual point in my first intake.
Keep up the stellar work, Tommy! I'm continually impressed and more excited every time Patreon pops up on my phone to see what I'm going to learn today! :)
Company assumes everybody has a thousand people pining over them and theyre so pressured to get married when most men don't have 6 to 10 women or men they're constantly trying to decide who to be with. Sweeney Todd is really a masterpiece. Merrily is too confusing in going back in time (backwards), and I don't care enough about the characters. Into the Woods is fantastic. Sunday.... it's too ambiguous.
I shouldn't need to drop $120 multiple times to 'understand' a musical. Either tell me what it's about the first time out or you don't have much to say. So, I agree with you on Sunday in the Park...
12:30. Watch shows like "Fiddler on the Roof" in comparison. The endings is much the same. Doesnt feel like the hero story is resovled. They just leave for America. Same for bye bye birdie. You feel flat because there is no big number at the end that drives you to your feet.
Sunday is cerebral. It is like an art museum that you visit. You may love the Romanticism but dont get the Impressionist. The interview clip says it in Sondheim's own words. You cant please everyone. "Art isn't easy"
Well, it's 7 years, this guy might be dead for all I know.
But I have to ask if you've seen All of Us Strangers and what you thought about that film.
I do think that just about everybody has issues with the show upon first viewing. It's probably the only example of any kind of show that I can think of, that actually *requires* at least two viewings, just in order to get what's going on.
I don't love it or hate it. There are parts of it that I love, and parts that I find very skippable. Offhand, I love, "Sunday in the Park with George" (the intro song), "Finishing the Hat," "We do not belong together," "An Ordinary Sunday" (not sure if these are the correct song titles, btw), and the second act intro and the songs, "Color and Light" and "See George..." It is very intellectual, though on repeat viewings, some things are also very beautiful and moving.
I think the main theme of the musical is in "Finishing the Hat." The show is largely about art and distance and emotional isolation, which is a common theme in Sondheim musicals, but this show explores it from a unique angle.
For me, I like the show because I relate just enough to find parts moving and beautiful and relateable, but not so much that it's painful.
At least Sunday in the Park is better (by far) than the musical with only two tunes - Titanic.
I'm with you...I'd watch it again but it is not near my favorite musical.
No one should have to apologize for giving their honest opinion. As long as you aren't setting out to hurt anyone or being contrary for its own sake you are free to say Sunday in the Park with George wasn't for you. You could have also said Hamilton wasn't for you if that was the honest reaction. But that you took the time to be open and vulnerable about why is appreciated.
ps I so really think the show/score/performances come off better listening to the CD rather than the DVD
Having to watch a musical multiple times in order to... "like it," "get it," "appreciate it" ...I think is pretty much par for the course when Sondheim is concerned. I actually had to watch/listen to *Into the Woods* about 5 times before I actually liked it, and that's one of his more popular shows. It took me a long time to like/appreciate *Sweeney*.
So I think it's completely normal and natural for something to just not click the first time.
I also understand not really feeling the need to give something more than one chance because time's too short, you know? Like I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter how many times I listen to *Children of Eden*. It's just not my thing. Same with...anything by JRB.
((I hope being a fan of musical theatre doesn't ever mean someone feels obligated to like a particular show just because it's popular or is supposed to be essential listening or whatever.))
Waaaaaaaay ahead of you dude. Sometimes I cringe when I hear that people like *Wicked* or any jukebox musical. I'll probably grow out of this though, at least I'm starting to.
Waaaaaaaay ahead of you dude. Sometimes I cringe when I hear that people like *Wicked* or any jukebox musical. I'll probably grow out of this though, at least I'm starting to.
There is lots of art that needs to be watched, listened to multiple times to fully appreciate it, not just musicals. But it has to hook you that first time to entice you to spend the time rewatching / relistening.
I think jukebox musicals get a bad rap. It's all in the exicution -- Singing in the Rain is a jukebox musical and it's usually cited as one of the best movie musicals.
I watched Sunday live a few months ago and loved it, but watching it on TV... That would be significantly less enjoyable.
I'm going to post a two part response. First, to why this one seems like his manifesto and not something like Merrily. While the character in Merrily writes musicals, the show is more about friendship and life choices than art. Sunday is explicitly about the creation of art and, in the cases of the two Georges, creating art that fulfills you but doesn't speak to others vs creating art that is adored but leaves you unfulfilled. Especially considering that Merrily was his previous show, a major flop that broke up his collaboration with Hal Prince and almost drove him away from writing musicals, is it any wonder that the show that brought him back to Broadway was about a misunderstood artist? (I still cry a little when I think of the mystery novels he could have given the world, but Sunday is my favorite show, so I get past it.) But mainly I think that while other shows of his have aspects of the theatre intrinsic to the plots (Follies, Night Music, Merrily) Sunday is purely a dissection of how art is made, which makes it feel like it must be his opinion on how art is made (which it may, in part, be... at least a little). Point two to follow.
Nice comment! Though I want to say I think Sunday is much more about *why* art is made than it is about how.
Agreed! I meant how less in the literal sense and more in the personal and conceptual sense. Not the physical act of creation, but how people come to create the way they do.
I don't think that was babbling at all. You are struggling, you've clearly just documented that. This musical asks you to consider some pretty daunting things: is the dedication boarding on obsession with your art, of value, if no one cares about the art your creating? Is it all worth it? Many artists never receive immediate accolades. The adoration frequently came after their death and so they never experience it themselves. And, so you say, "so what -- I'm an artist, what care I what people think." And yet...
You don't have to like Sondheim's art. It's not a requirement. In this case his art did exactly what it is was intended to do. It caused you to think and struggle and ask questions and reflect. From watching this video, I'd say his musical was a complete success.
Well I see your opinion and value it.
Sondheim's art.... You yourself have given reference to Sondheim successful shows and flops. If you take all his shows and level them equal an artists work you can then understand Sondheim's book and this musical as a reflection of Sondheim's work as a whole.
Can't argue with taste. Whatever taste is defined by; we all have different experiences, different senses and different feelings.
I agree with you that a good musical should be able to reach the audience on just one viewing. But I have to admit that it took me 2 viewings to get through SITPWG entirely. I guess it had something to do with watching a piece made for the theatre, on a T.V. screen at home, alone. I suspect that sitting in the dark, a couple of meters away from the live orchestra and the live performance on stage, will influence the audience's subconscious participation a lot with a show like this.
I remember how my thoughts started to drift during a few parts in the first act. Since the piece takes quite some time introducing all the characters that George is drawing on his many Sundays, I felt at some point that the story line got too much slack. But the second I felt that, it got tightened again. I remember being touched by "We Do Not Belong Together" and even more by "Beautiful", and how the entire last section of the first act suddenly led up to "Sunday". I remember being a bit confused right before the 1st act finale started, but half a song later I was crying my eyes out, for reasons I still can't quite explain today, 15 years later. There is just something about the combination of the music, the lyrics, the staging that results in putting the actual painting on stage, having spent time with the characters in the painting, George's connection to Dot and the removal of Louises glasses at the last moment.
I also remember really disliking the Chromolume section and wondering if that was something people would have loved to see in the 80's. But right after my own harsh judgement, the show immediately puts it into perspective by everything the guests at the museum have to say about it, especially Barbara Bryne's character Blair Daniels.
"Children And Art" and "Lesson #8" really got me and so did the sudden return of Dot after Marie had died. And again is started crying during "Sunday".
Like I said before, I had to struggle through it the 1st time around, but that would not have been the case had I seen it in the theatre. And yes, upon viewing it a 2nd and a 3rd time, deeper layers and structures became much more transparent to me, but I also have a huge interest for such things. More than the average theatre audience.
One of the directors I worked with a couple of years ago, told me he had seen it during its original run off-broadway. He was in Evita with Mandy Patinkin and had come to support him and the rest of the cast, since he had heard that the creation of the show had been such a struggle. He told me he was baffled by what he saw, claiming it was the most magnificent piece of musical theatre he had seen up until then. I can really imagine why he felt that way.
Oh damn, I only wanted to write a short reply. I could go on an on! Which reminds me to tell you that I really like your channel and your videos. I think we could have awesome, passionate conversations about musical theatre.
Keep up the good work and I actually hope you'll respond to my comment. I'd be interested in what you'd have to say.
Greetings from Hamburg,
Mark
The slower scenes of Sunday In The Park With George strike me similarly to the Season 5 episode, The Body, of Buffy, The Vampire Slayer. Both presentations deal with an airless monotony: one of laborious creation, the other of grief. Both can be uncomfortable to watch. Both sit awkwardly within a broader, linear narrative. Both can be quite jarring in their approach to music: one with syncopated rhythms, blatant repetition and a lack of approachable tunes, the other with no music at all. Both can leave the viewer wondering how things progressed at all, or why they even watched each to begin with. Yet, both talk about their themes in surprisingly relatable ways which have not oft been attempted, and both can be immensely rewarding to watch.
Hmmmm... would you buy a ticket to watch this musical as a revival on Broadway with Jake G & Annaleigh Ashford? I've never seen the show other than snippets of Mandy Patinkin on UA-cam. At the moment I'm still torn whether to spend $159 to sit in orch or $49 in balcony... or just save my $$$ and watch the movie.
Just did rush tickets for $41 front row and wow what an amazing experience! Sondheim was in the theater too. Anyway, as a first-timer watching this show, I thoroughly enjoyed it but then again, watching theater live in person is different from watching it on video so perhaps that's why. Regardless, I hope you get to see this production.
When he’s 50, this kid is gonna watch this video and cringe.
It's not your style. It's one of my favorite and I never get tired of watching it. But it's not for everyone. BTW=After SUNDAY Lapine and Sondheim did INTO THE WOODS because they wanted to laugh.
If this makes you feel any better, I love Sunday in the Park, but....
.....I think Into The Woods is overrated (ducks flying objects)
My school is doing this musical in 2020 and I also hate it
First of all, hobby? Creating art is not a hobby when it comes to this show. Secondly, you are not creating art.. You are commenting on Art. That's perfectly legitimate. But you cannot compare what you do to what an artist does . Come on now.
So...you ultimately didn't enjoy it because it hit too close to home? (Nothing wrong with that...I don't enjoy "The Last Five Years" for that reason)
You're taking it too literally. No, it's not about you, but take heart, it's not about Sondheim or even Georges Seurat. It's not about the tortured creative process but about art itself, and about the audiences who encounter it. It was an ordinary Sunday, but just yesterday (I'm writing on a Sunday and the Art Institute is closed) a number of Chicagoans turned a corner and audibly gasped. They gasped first at the painting's size, then at its oddity, then at its shimmering, enigmatic beauty. We know little about Seurat, but we know that real people walked through that park, and that Seurat went to the trouble of finishing that hat. Only artists have this power; to connect Chicago with Paris, 1890 with 2020, ordinary park walkers with ordinary gallery walkers. There is a moment seconds before the end of musical when the characters fail to recreate the painting, but instead form a single line and bow in gratitude toward Seurat, a moment I can never view without a flood of tears. THAT is the essence of Sunday in the Park with George.
Passion was hard to sit through. Fosca crosses a lot of lines.
Got done commenting on the other one and had to check this one out. I'm glad you still don't like it. I've tried - I keep thinking I must be missing something. I get all the themes, some are interesting and powerful, but that is separate from the musical, which - like a long winded lecture, may give you what you need, but you're bored with the presentation.
I would never, ever take someone to this show, though I might put myself through it again sometime. Like medicine I suppose.
A very similar case is this graphic novel called "The Sculptor". If you call yourself an artist, you must read it. It will change who you are as a person
What i dont understand is what is appealing about Seurat in this show? Why does Dot love him? He has no affection toward her whatsoever
You at lest have the balls to admit it doesn’t work for you and you perfectly explained why. I have similar reasons why I don’t like to watch gay movies, btw. And I completely agree with you that musical certainly isn’t art form which should require revision.
I respect this opinion so much. I like Sunday in the Park with George, but that's just it. I only like it. It has some truly incredible numbers, but certain parts just lose me, such as the Chromolume sequence.
But you haven’t gotten the point yet. You need loss in your life, and failure. It’s not about what you think it’s about.
Tbh, I really love the first half of Sunday in the Park with George, when the story takes place in 1884, and focuses more on Georges as he paints his masterpiece, A Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte, and his relationship with Dot. That part I love, I adore all the music, I think it closes perfectly with Sunday... And then it goes weird. It fastforwards to 1984, and we're suddenly introduced to Georges 2.0 (George), and he's unhappy with his life, and we find out that he's the great-grandson of Georges and Dot, then a vision of Dot appears before him, he confesses his doubts to her, and she sings the song "Move On" to him... and that's where the squick kicks in, because Dot addresses George as if he were Georges, and suddenly they're confessing their love to each other, singing that they "have always belonged together", and all I can think of is, 'She's your great-grandmother!! What are you doing??? No! Don't confess your love to her!! You're her great-grandson!!! What is going on????"
Yeah, this is one of those musicals where I wish it had been contained to Act 1.
Idk, I could never get into the music man
I love Music Man but I understand and respect your opinion.
I can't get into most old/fluff musicals, i.e Hello Dolly! or anything by Cole Porter/Rogers & Hammerstein. (I feel guilty about this, but I just don't get around to listening to most old musicals).
TheMavieneT Really? Cole Porter is a genius lyricist! He pretty mich introduced innuendo to musicals...he is clever and funny 😊
So it’s a great musical and that’s why you don’t like it. It’s so good at getting its message across that it’s too jarring for you to deal with
"It's a musical I actually have a pretty good knowledge of, having never actually sat down and watched it or sat down and listened to it." How can anyone have "pretty good" knowledge of a show they haven't seen or heard?
@Dalton Fitzgerald Which means you have knowledge of what others think of the show. You don't personally have a good knowledge of, especially when it's so easy to see the show.
The main songs like Move On, in and of itself, have beautiful lyrics and music and an overarching message which is beautiful and informative, but it doesn't fit in with the musical. The characters don't jive as a couple, I'm left with the impression that Mandy and Bernadette are fantastic actors and singers but the material doesn't warrant that level of emotion. I don't see why she even LIKES George.
Like paintings themselves this musical can seem oblique - it deserves repeated viewings, chewing over, ruminations. Defying easy accessibility is not a universal guide to quality.
Dude, get over yourself! You either like it or you don't. I do. Very much. But hey, it doesn't work for everyone.
Not one of my favorite's either. Only liked the song "Move On".