Lizzie Borden Revisited w/ Cara Robertson
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- Опубліковано 25 лип 2022
- In August of 1892, one of the most famous double murders in American history was committed in brutal fashion. Andrew and Abby Borden were hacked to death in their Fall River house, and their daughter Lizzie, home at the time, became the number one suspect. What followed was a spectacular trial, fought by brilliant attorneys, in a courtroom packed with fascinated spectators and reporters.
My guest is Cara Robertson, author of "The Trial of Lizzie Borden: A True Story". She summarizes this sensational Gilded Age true crime story with a unique legal perspective.
More about the author and her work can be found here: www.carawrobertson.com/
Nice Gladys Kravitz reference! Not everyone would get that one. 😁
She was funny , but her husband was flipping hilarious 😂
And considering Elizabeth Montgomery (who played Samantha) played Lizzie Borden in one of the most famous movie versions of Lizzie Borden, the Glady Kravitz/Bewitched reference was even more poignant .
Bewitched right?
@@tracieday8661 👍
Compelling interview. Ms Robertson added a lot to a subject that I thought I already knew quite a bit about. She offered both insight and humor as well. Thanks for this!
Her book is great
The atmosphere in the house over a house & money Andrew had gifted to Abby's sister had been so bad the week before the murder that Lizzie & Emma moved out for a few days . Lizzie stood to inherit $4 million in todays money. There was a folded coat under Andrews head. It was a very warm day ,he wouldn't have needed a coat. Lizzie wore it to protect her clothes, then slipped it under his head. If you look up the autopsy pics the wounds on Abby match the pointed flat iron Lizzie was ironing hankies with. That's why no hatchet was found. Abby had to die first so Andrews money would go to his side of the family, not Abbys. Lizzie was known to be abrupt, loud in her dislike of her stepmother, and to shop lift . Local stores just charged it to Andrews account. She still did it when she'd inherited all that money. It gives people a high to get away with stealing if there is no financial need. Lizzie had around 30 dresses when her closet was searched. For the time, a huge wardrobe. Tho the house was rather basic for Andrews wealth & not in the rich part of town. Bridget the maid was in the attic bedroom napping, still nauseous from the bad mutton when Andrew died at 11am & was seen cleaning the outside rear windows ( by next doors maid) when Abby died at 9.30am . Maybe she did hear something but was too scared to confront Lizzie. She never returned to that house after the trial. Lizzie had motive & opportunity. The Uncle had an airtight alibi The front door was locked. Lizzie, "in the barn , looking out the window, eating pears" would have seen anyone sneak in the back way.
Not true. To make ammends, Andrew bought Emma and Lizzie a house that they could rent and therefore make money as landlords which they did. They held onto the house for about a year before SELLING it back to Andrew at fair market price.
@@JACKDAWFISH Andrew sold it to the girls for 1 dollar. The girls sold it back to him for 5000.00. Do the math.
Hi! On Lizzie, Nice job! I just found out about the coat today, staring at us all for over 100 years. Thank you! Di, Boston, Mass
@@JACKDAWFISH well, one writer said she did more investigations on what ws based on many, many lies, because lies sell. He sent her to europe, bought her and her sister expensive clothing, and lizzie and her father were close. so what isn't true?
Many misstatements in this comment. You should read Cara’s book.
Don't forget the house is 2200 square feet..its not tiny
@pikiesmith9236. 2200sq.feet you say. Well, the rooms are small to average size, very cookie-cutter and absent of hallways. To get to one room you go through another. Basement probably considered in Sq footage.
Five adults living there.
I personally believe Lizzie did it.
I believe she did with Uncle John Morse
Very informative could you do podcast on the William Desmond Taylor case of 1922?
Yes, that would be an excellent topic!
I think the time difference between the murders is crucial. I’ve noticed many people focus on the fact that it would be almost impossible for the perpetrator to successfully conceal themself within the house without Borden or Sullivan noticing or even worse returning later to commit the second murder …Thats true ,but I feel it's more important to consider the time difference plus the order of the murders because for the inheritance to pass down to Lizzie and Emma Borden Abby Borden would not only have to die first but it would have to be clearly discernible …Cui Bono ?
Excellent. Thank you.
I've never heard anyone suspect the guy that was hanging around that they had guard the door. Nowadays they always suspect these kind of people because they've been found to be guilty a good portion of the time.
So interesting to have another look at this.
From everything else I’ve read, the father was a shrewd businessman but he was generous with his family.
Sure, Lizzie said she wanted to live on “the Hill” - but that’s hardly a murder motive.
Andrew paid for Lizzie’s tour of Europe and Emma’s college.
He had the house completely renovated to add running water indoors, so the kitchen was modern.
The temperature on that day was a high of 80-something - August in Massachusetts isn’t the same as August in Texas.
I still wonder about John Morse. He saw the priests and the cable car driver saw the priests, but no one saw or remembered seeing Mr Morse.
And I’m pretty sure the timing of the murders is just a best guess… based on the contents of the stomachs… not the temperature of the liver or whatever.
Also, when I read the transcripts of the inquisition, it was clear to me that the DA was asking and re asking the questions in ways intended to trap her - “were you upstairs or on the stairs?” “Were you feeling better in the late morning than you were first thing in the morning? - “I was not unwell that morning” you said your mother asked you what you wanted to eat and you said you didn’t want to eat because you had been unwell. “I had been unwell the previous day.” You said you didn’t eat breakfast because you didn’t feel like eating. “I never eat breakfast.”
That sort of thing.
All accounts mention water pumps and no running water. They didn't even have gas laid on, but used kerosene lamps. No bathtubs, but hauled water heated on the stove. No actual bathrooms, but an indoor water closet in the cellar backed up by slop jars, which had to be dumped daily. Life was 20 years from the modernization of the day in most cases. Daily life was unduly burdensome for these women!
Really interesting interview. If you want to read more about it, I can recommend a book published in the 1960s, “A Private Disgrace: Lizzie Borden by Daylight.” The author, Victoria Lincoln, grew up in Fall River a few doors down from Lizzie.
Interesting book but much of it now debunked. Lizzie wasn't an epilcptic nor did she buy poison (prussic acid) for example. Much of what she based her theories on were in fact gossip and not fact.
FYI the author lived near her later home, Maplecroft, after the murders. So she didn’t live near her during Lizzie’s time in the Andrew Borden home.
I worked for years on Hartwell Street in Fall River ,just feet away from the Borden house. It always intrigued me. I remember reading that John Morse, Lizzie Borden’s biological Uncle, used to show up at their house with little to no clothing for a visit! He traveled from out west and would show up announced . I read also he was trained as a butcher at some point in his career out west! It really is very strange he happens to have showed up at the Borden house during the time of the murders! He also had an alibi saying he was visiting relatives at the time of the murders. The thing that sticks in my craw is he only showed up with the clothes on his back and chose to visit the house the same time the murders happened. He was the brother of Lizzie s Mom and friggin Andrew was handing off land and probably equity to Abby and her family! I think Uncle John was more involved than we are told!
I always wondered if lizzie agreed to pay someone to do the murders once she got the inheritance, because whoever did it would have had some blood on their clothes. The picture's aren't great, but it doesn't look like anyone tried to clean up, because most of the blood was on the carpet, and why would she not have ditched the bloody rags. You would think if lizzie did it, she would have had blood on her clothes, hands, hair, and shoes. I would not have moved back into that house either, that would be creepy. At the judgement, the truth will come out for someone.
Unless she put Andrew's over coat on, which would have reached the floor. Then folded it back up and laid it on the arm of couch. Would be expected to be bloody as it was by his head. Easy to wipe blood off her hands and face and shoes.
Between Lizzie, Bridget, and the neighbors there were pretty much eyes on the house the entire time between the last time both victims were seen alive and when their bodies were discovered. Out of curiosity, what is your theory for how they got in and out of the house unseen? Sure, if Lizzie hired them her testimony doesn't matter any more, but even just between neighbors and Bridget there are pretty good eyes on the house at all times. Also, if there was the ability for a murderer to get in and out of the home unseen, why wouldn't there have been time for Lizzie to clean up before drawing attention to the murders? The pictures aren't too reliable because the people at the time specifically mentioned that they rearranged the scene a bit before taking pictures because they cared more about preserving the dignity of the dead victims than they did about taking accurate pictures.
Also, I have watched many modern-day True Crime stories where the pictures of the scene show the murders themselves were particularly bloody. The police seized the clothing of the murder suspect, and under forensic tests they clearly show blood. But it took the police actually seizing the clothes and running forensic tests to know for sure. Of course, if someone actually tries to move a body after it starts bleeding profusely they often get a lot more blood on them, but just from a general blood spatter from the killing itself I don't think I've ever seen a case where the perpetrator was drenched in blood no matter how gruesome the murder and no matter how much blood is on the floor, walls, etc. Exactly how much blood would you expect to see on her even if she did zero cleaning up and wasn't wearing Andrew's jacket and also didn't change clothes, wash up, or put another dress over the murder dress? If the police had immediately seized her clothing from the scene and had actually checked under her dress to see if she was wearing another dress underneath, etc., and if they had modern-day forensic training, I absolutely would say it spoke volumes if they didn't see any blood on her. But when everyone clearly cared way more about preserving the modesty of the victims and the suspect than they did about accurately preserving any evidence, would I really expect her to have so much blood on her that it is unthinkable that it wouldn't have been obvious even to people who clearly were going out of their way not to pay too close of attention? Maybe all of the True Crime episodes I have seen with gruesome murders are unusual. Maybe the suspects just happen to stand at exactly the right angle.
I will admit, I do find the fact that literally no one saw any blood on her dress somewhat interesting, but in a way if she was innocent, wouldn't it also be reasonable to assume that she would have gotten some blood on her dress just discovering the crime scene? Someone who knew the body was there and had washed up and put on a fresh dress would probably successfully navigate without getting any blood on them, but wouldn't someone who just stumbled into the scene likely accidentally get blood on themselves? Wouldn't they especially get blood on themselves as they ran over to check the body and see if he is really dead? Yes, it would become apparent pretty quickly that he was dead, but I would expect the natural reaction to check the body quickly would kick in before the realization that his skull had been smashed in. So it's slightly suspicious evidence, but in my mind it's evidence that just as likely suggests her guilt as her innocence. And in the words of Sherlock Holmes, once we have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. As improbable as it may be that Lizzie committed the murders, and no witnesses/neighbors/police happened to notice any blood on her dress, every other possible explanation that would explain away that one tiny factor is even MORE improbable. For example, if Lizzie hired someone to do it, we still have to explain how that person got in and out of the house unseen. We have to explain why they hit Abby more times than Andrew. We have to explain how she paid them off without any evidence coming out of the missing money. If we are assuming that is why she didn't get blood on her dress, we also have to assume that she deliberately left the room during the murder itself to not get blood on her dress. And yet in spite of all of this, she didn't truly take advantage of hiring someone. She didn't use it as a chance to get a real alibi by giving them a key to the house and then going to visit an unimpeachable witness during either of the two murders.
After the accomplice committed the murders, they didn't arouse any suspicion by walking through the streets with either the weapon or with bloody clothes, so either they left the clothes and murder weapon behind, defeating the purpose of having the theory in the first place, or they successfully walked around without anyone commenting. I suppose if the person had a profession that could explain it away such as being a butcher maybe it's possible. But in general as unlikely as it would be for Lizzie to commit the murders and either successfully get rid of the dress before anyone came over or just not have anyone see the blood, it seems WAY more unlikely that someone successfully walked away without either successfully getting rid of their clothes or successfully not having anyone see them. Don't get me wrong, for a less publicized trial someone might have seen something and just not realized the significance of what they had seen, but for this particular trial it was so well publicized and enough immigrant communities were so harassed and were resentful about the unfair treatment they received in this case compared to Lizzie I really struggle to believe no one would have put two and two together or that someone did put two and two together but decided to remain silent.
Is it impossible that Lizzie hired someone to help her? Of course not. I just merely believe that if she did that theory adds tons of new problems, and it doesn't even fully resolve the existing problems. I doubt it's particularly likely, but that certainly doesn't rule it out. And Lizzie having a co-conspirator who didn't even need to be hired because they also wanted Abby and Andrew dead or Lizzie hiring someone to help both seem much more likely to me than the idea that Lizzie genuinely knew nothing about it and had nothing to do with it. In that case, she would know who did it, but she would stay silent because not staying silent would implicate her as well.
Lizzie did put bloody garments in the pail in basement “with her menstrual rags”. However Bridgette said she never saw that pail before then and she should have seen it where she would be one doing laundry
Great interview.
I think, from a logical point, Lizzie would be my first and likely only suspect. I arrive at this conclusion for several reason(s)- too much to list here. But I think she beat the system.
Lizzie may not have banished the hatchet, but she was involved, and you're correct, she did beat the system. But she loved animals, hey, you gotta give her that.
I just toured the house including basement. There was a nasty pit toilet down there that they could use back then, now sealed off. I had an overwhelming feeling that should be excavated because you might find your hatchet there. Who would have checked there???
I'm glad I listened to this podcast. Film always shows the Borden family dining together; this author dispels that notion.
Weird statement
I completely 100% agree with that conclusion.
The Borden house was over 2,000 square feet. That is not small.
Five adults…
The first book I read on the case, many years ago, had a floorplan of the house. I recognized it as almost exactly like a house I lived in as a child. My bedroom was the one Abby was killed in. BTW, it was haunted.
Ooooh creepy 😱
@@MostNotorious By a two-dimensional glowing cat, so it wasn't scary!
I’m on my second reading of Ms. Robertson’s book now, it’s really good. It has more of a ‘feminist’ tone than she presents here in this interview, and gives a good view of the era. I recommend it.
I have a hard time understanding the people that "dont believe" that Lizzie was involved.
This case is not a mystery of who done it. Lizzie did the crime. What is a mystery is how she could become so callous to even her own father that she would commit such crimes all for money and freedom. I wonder if in the end of her life she considered it worth it. If she had any conscience at all, she would have had such guilt, but since she never confessed to anyone that we know of, it seems she did not live in regret which is peculiar, as that would suggest she lacked basic human decency. That, to me, is what makes this case interesting.
Actually, a new suspect is John V Morse, the Uncle who mysteriously showed up the night before the murders, very unusual and out of habit
@@johnchitwood8799uncle John although actions were strange had a rock solid alibi. His family members vouched for him visiting during those times
@@TammyM36 of course they did. Next to Andrew he was the bread winner. And there's also the probability of conspiracy. Lots of money involved in the murder. It only takes 2 to make a conspiracy. His actions were too suspicious to be ignored
@@johnchitwood8799John Morse as a suspect is hardly new. He was considered from Day One! However he absolutely had an alibi and could not have committed the murders. He could have possibly known who the murderer was and aided in some way, but he absolutely did not wield the murder weapon(s).
@@slacktoryrecords4193 so you are saying little lizzie did it? Morse could have faked his alibi, remember, a lot of money was at stake. Several million by today's money. His niece who he was supposedly visiting could have lied for him
Lizzie bordon had an axe, and gave her mother 40 whacks, and when she saw what she had done, she gave her father 41. Anyone remeber this as a kid, crazy.
Children used to jump rope to that little rhyme.
Yeah, guess counting was not a big strength back then.
yeh that never gets old. we have all heard it over and over and over again.
Yeah and I live in Fall River and I had tried getting a job when they made the house into a bed and breakfast
Duh
The only mystery is- How the Hell Lizzie got away with it.
I’ve wondered why Emma & Lizzie didn’t move out, such as to the house they owned for a time - why not bounce the renters and live there yourself? Dunno…
It’s like another trial in the 20 th century. With a dream team and all that! Both defendants had money and could hire the best defense. Lizzie’s defense attorney was the former governor.
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I did some ancestry research and Lizzie comes up as my 3nd cousin 7 times removed or something crazy like that. I read somewhere that all Bordens are related to the first Borden that came tk the United States. I need to research and verify more because I’m not totally sure.
She is my 5th cousin, 3X removed.
I bet Lizzie’s father was being inappropriate with Lizzie her whole life. I think step mom was horrible and jealous. I think Lizzie completely snapped. She may have fantasized about it for years and one day just did it. Poison wouldn’t accomplish what she needed which was an outlet for all her hate anger and hurt. If someone raped me I would rather use and ax than poison. You would want to get that physical rage out .
We have ben told many lies about this case. mr Borden never worked with the dead, I think he invested in a funeral business or something. Also he loved his girls, they were close, and he wasn't cheap, he sent lizzie to Europe on an extended tour for over a month. He gave the girls expensive clothing. Him and Lizzie were close. Even this author bought into the lies, so i can't buy her book. Lizzie, I think had to be involved, but she couldn't have done it, just for the blood issue alone.
Thanks!
Thanks Boris!!
When you research the circumstances in detail, Lizzy's maternal uncle, who was staying with the family, looms as a likely suspect. Yes his alibi was found to be credible but only because he could recite very detailed information about the people on the carriage-bus he had been riding (out of the area). It was said he even recalled the badge number a policeman, (another passenger). Yet nobody remembered seeing him. When he returned that afternoon and was told what had transpired, he didn't appear upset but sat down in the backyard eating pears. Anyway, it's conceivable Lizzy and he planned for him to commit the murders while she waited in the barn. The logistics of how they pulled this off I'll leave to the true sluths. This would explain how she didn't have a hair out of place.
What about the out of place heavy coat stuffed underneath Andrew Borden's head, do you think Lizzie used it to stop the blood slatter ,because I can't see Andrew wearing it on a very hot summers day,??
There was a similar axe murder nearby before the Borden's, who were the victims, and was anyone ever named as a suspect?
I believe you’re thinking of the ax murder of Bertha Manchester, which occurred after the Borden murders, the following Spring. The killer was found and confessed: Jose Correiro. He spent twenty years in prison and then was deported back to Portugal where he was from.
I’m so confused why people keep saying Lizzie Borden’s father’s home was small. I do not consider nor do most people now in the 21st-century 3500 ft.² a small home.
What I can't figure out is where were the bloody foot prints and why didn't they dig deeper into this so called fishing trip?
We stayed in the house. It's not small. Are was found on neighbors garage during court proceedings. Inadmissible.
One thing I’ve thought of is if guilty how could Lizzie have been certain she would be acquitted? Her life was on the line. Guilty or not she spent a year awaiting trial… lots of time to think.
Pictures of the house appeared to me to be a two story relatively medium to a semi large home but this is the second researcher describe it as small. Is there a square foot measurement for the house?.
It's 2200 square feet not including basement
17 minutes in and I've listened to too much misinformation already! The police pinic was at Rocky Point, not Rocky Mount. Lizzie sent Bridget across the street to the doctor whom she and her family were better acquainted. I've been to the house. going across the street or next door would be a difference of about 20 seconds. Even though that doctor wasn't there when Bridget got there, he did arrive within a few minutes, so there was none of this "waiting around" by Lizzie.
Imagine living in a log cabins. Igloos TP'S, talk about small quarters and take care of eachother.They were not imporveregged. Obviously there was alot going on that may not be able to figure out figure out. Crazy. Lizzy did it but I believe Emma knew that after the fact.
Lizzie, and a possible accomplice, are the only likely culprits. Uncle John is a possible contender for accomplice.
The prosecutors had hardly any evidence that she did it the case was lost from the get go. Read the Court testimony alot is revealed in that
Why do all these interviews and articles reference Ms. Robertson as clerking at the Supreme Court? They never tell us in what capacity or whether she worked for a specific Supreme Court judge. Very suspicious.
Hi Jasper. Thanks for your comment. I didn't ask nor did I check further into it. It wouldn't bother me what judge she worked for or what she did, personally. As long as her history is correct I'm good.
Dunno why she snickers so much about it all. Weird
The giggling is too much.
And the non-stop “you know.”
Hacking someone to death is a very personal act. The number of strikes is overkill and shows the rage of the murderer toward the victims.
True. Also, destroying the face is very personal.
Thumbs down on this woman. This was not a small house! So annoying every time she uses that - amiss. She needs to read some of these other reviews and learn from them. Lizzy plainly was maddened that these people could so callously control her life. The bad laws for women of the day accounted for much misery and evil.
Also, this woman's vocal fry is driving me apeshit. I can't even concentraaate on the intervieeew. My earbuds are driving it into my head.
For many years, I believed Lizzy did it. Over the years, I think there was a conspiracy.....and it could have been Emma.....a good horse could travel the 15 miles in an hour. Uncle John plays some part in this. And was there an illegitimate son? Maybe Bridget was part of this. I now believe Lizzy was complicit, but did not do the deed.
It’s antiquated all right.
The author should have become more grounded in the general history and material culture of the late 19th century .....
Yes I’ve seen a lot of cases where step children are step parents don’t get along!! Doesn’t always lead to murder. But I believe Lizzie was guilty.
Off putting that this woman laughs the entire time
I listened to a lot of podcasts and watched tons of videos but I always go back to thinking that she did it if only because of the lenght of time elapsed between the two murders. She doesn't show a lot of emotions, she changes her story.....Some say she couldn't do it because she loved animals but a lot of criminals do. Emma and her were also getting on in age. To me, she sounds like a spoiled brat who just wants more and more and throws tantrums when she doesn't get her way or what she wants. It reminds me of the Menendez brothers who got tired of waiting for their inheritance.
Omg this is ridiculous Lizzie is guilty thought that was kinda well known
What is wrong with this woman's voice? Vocal fry or polyps?
EDIT: If you speed it up to 1.25, it helps with her vocal fry. A LOT!
Sounds like a spoiled brat to me.
Andrew Jackson Borden made his first money as an undertaker and overcharged grieving families...it was rumored that he and his partner in undertaking were not above stealing from bodies and grieving families. This is why Andrew put up with the embarrassment of having his daughter a klepto, trying to keep it quiet and paying the bills for whatever Lizzie stole. She wasn't coy about whatever she took--didn't try to hide it. She acted like an entitled woman.
Also, Abby came from a good family with money...she was a spinster and was way past her prime when she married Andrew. Her money undoubtedly escalated the fortune of Andrew Borden.
Dr. Seabury Bowen was a distant cousin of Andrew's and Bridget did run over to Bowen's home, but he was out.
There is no evidence Lizzie was a thief. Mr Borden was never charged by the Fall River stores.
Andrew was not an undertaker. He was a carpenter and made furniture and caskets.
Lizzie was obviously a lesbian.
Why obviously? And so what if she was? Doesn’t play factor is this double murder
Read Arnold Brown's book, if you want to know the real story.
The giggling is so irritating
She was acquitted yet here the author presumes she's guilty , so so unfair! You ( author) weren't there. The townsfolk we're. She was found innocent! Se didn't run away, etc. She was straight forward what about the illegitimate son? What about the maid, made to work when I'll in such heat. She could have struck out at her mistress, then had to kill Mr Borden because he'd have killed the maid upon discovering what she did he
This woman is writing from a delusional standpoint first off the house isn’t small and the man wasn’t stingy all her investigation skills are poor at best.
I have recorded a series of podcasts of Lizzie's trial testimony, and recently released the inquest on UA-cam. Coming up I have recorded the autopsy reports, Alice Russell's grand jury interview, Nellie McHenry's interview of Bridget Sullivan and even my hypothesis on how Lizzie committed the murders wearing a waterproof gossamer hanging in plain sight in the clothespress on my Substack article.
Oh that's interesting! What is a waterproof gossamer ? And where is this Substack article please?
Have you tried to replicate the feat? without actually killing someone obviously. What happened to all the blood splatter? all of these theories can sort of explain how Lizzie did it but it's highly unlikely. What about that according to NOAA records that it was 89 degrees that day, umm, she wasn't reported to hot and sweaty. Again try to pull of the very physical slaughter of 2 people wearing waterproof gossamer or not. How did she clean up with no running water etc..
@@JACKDAWFISH Hi David! I think ur talking to me. There was running water in the kitchen and in the cellar where she put a large bucket of bloody clothes and said it was from her monthly illness. Bridget testified it was not there when she did laundry on Monday & Tuesday. :( I'm sure she was sweating quite a bit as Alice was fanning her and bathing her face with cool water cloths but they were too polite to mention it in print) and everyone accepted the humidity as par for the course. I read that it was only 82 degrees that day but perhaps Miss Cara knows better. If Lizzie used Mrs. Borden's cape-like gossamer (it was black, btw, hanging in the downstairs clothes press) I think she would have had plenty of time to wipe it down and dispose of the rags in the bloody bucket. The part about no footprints left behind shows how methodically she planned her attack.
@@sarahholland2600 Sorry, it won't let me type in the link. I tried 4 times. You have to ask me on my channel and not Cara's bc that's how things work.
@@lizziebordenaudioThere was a pump in the sink room off the kitchen, but there wasn’t running water there. The only running water was in the ‘water closet’ in the basement.