THE LAST OF US reaction Episode 9 "Look for the Light" season finale
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- Опубліковано 5 чер 2024
- Badd Medicine here and its Last of Us reaction time!
What an season finale! We get to see Ashley Johnson in the open and the birth of Ellie. Nice to see the quick back story for Marlene and Anna. We see an awesome part from the game... the Giraffe moment. Joel reveals a very heavy moment about himself and shortly after the fireflies come in with a flash boom. Now we get pretty much step for step from the Last of Us game. And we are left with.... Was Joel right? Would Ellie have went through with it?
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What an ending!!!! What was your reaction? What would have you done? Was Joel right or wrong? What was your favorite moment of the season? Cast and did amazing and Gustavo Santaolalla did amazing with the music!
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This is very star wars, light side dark side, selflessness of selfishness, I would’ve sacrificed Ellie every day of the week, which is the objective and right thing to do, but Joel didn’t, which is the realistic and “human” thing to do, as in human love, not as in humanitarian survival prime instinct. But if the world was more, sacrifice yourself for the greater good, instead of me, me, and my needs, the world would be infinitely better.
Thanks so much for your reaction, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed it!
As for my thoughts - SPOILERS
This is just a world of grey! I think it was interesting that Marlene said to Joel that she thinks Ellie would be okay with it. Well. If that’s the case, then why didn’t they just ask her. I think she probably would’ve agreed to it but they decided to strong arm the situation and Joel reacted like a cornered and threatened animal..
It’s also not clear to me how confident they were with the vaccine/ treatment. It seems strange to kill the one person who is immune on a small chance or underdeveloped theory 🤷♀️. We’ve seen from the pandemic that developing a vaccination isn’t always clear cut and easy, it takes years of development and testing and the fireflies were willing to kill their only test subject. Bizarre.
@@ncard00 Yes. Even though I have two small daughters, I still agree with you 100%.
I always felt right or wrong was beside the point, If Marlene knew Ellie would have said yes to the surgery then she wouldn't have witheld the information. Ellie was talking about the future with Joel so she clearly wasn't expecting to die for the cure, but regardless Ellie should have been given a choice. I believe if he would have respected it regardless of her answer if it was her decision. I also believe if he didn't, then you could call him a villain, but as it stands, he's just a parent who knows the loss of a child doing whatever it takes to protect the only one he has left.
@@JoshBou Definitely sucks that she wasn’t given all of the information. Perhaps that’s the biggest sin of all. After everything she went through, she wasn’t given the choice to sacrifice herself or save herself. I hate to light this candle but…her brain her choice.
Ashley Johnson wasn’t just the voice actress for Ellie in Part I and Part II, she also was the performance capture artist as well, and Neil Druckmann said that Ashley herself informed a lot of the development of the character. She’s been this character for over 10 years now, and it was so special that she was person who birthed the show’s version of Ellie. Incredible. ❤
Ellie didn't know she was going to die. She was making plans with Joel for afterwards "I'll follow you anywhere". Marlene stated they didn't tell her so she wouldn't have anxiety.
I'd be pissed
Ellie was dedicated to achieving good for the world. So you truthfully think she would have protested?
@@ivankawnartist lol "good for the world". Comeback again to the comment section AFTER you actually have to choose between your life/ your daughter's life or "saving the world".
@@ivankawnartist Tough question...but she wasn't given a choice. She always believed they would just take her blood and run it through their machines.
@@ivankawnartist if they were so sure she was so dedicated to saving the world then why do they not tell her the truth? Please, this argument is stale.
the best thing I heard about this before was that everyone wants to save the whole world but Joel did save his whole world (Ellie).
Yes, also one of the most famous things is that the world took everything from Joel, so Joel took everything from the world.
@@NeugeCZ Ah, spiteful intentions. Very healthy.
How selfish...
@@ivankawnartist Team Joel
I'm 100% team Joel. It's not even a decision in my mind. Of course, I've never been in the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few camp." In the end, you protect those around you and do the best you can. This is his child at this point. Doesn't matter they're not blood. Their bond is bigger than that. This is his purpose, his people, his heart.
This story line makes how they changed the frank and Bill storyline so much better too. Frank was Bill's purpose, his people, his heart. Once Frank was going to die, Bill had no more purpose and no need to keep going. That's the kind of guy he was, just like Joel. The letter literally setup what Joel did here.
"...There was one person worth saving. And that's what I did. I saved him, and then I protected him. That's why men like you and I are here. We have a job to do, and God help any motherfucker who gets in our way."
I took Ellie’s quiet “zoned out” behavior at the beginning to be a direct result of what she went through last episode. I think Joel was “chatty” with her because he knew she was traumatized.
Just my two cents.
no.
According to the show runners; yes
That was certainly what was implied in the game
It was the after effects of her trauma with David obviously.
I agree. I took it to be trauma. It would've been weird if she stayed the same happy Ellie. Joel was being such a dad in those moments too.
Ellie knows he's lying, and she knows what Joel is capable off. That's the reason she interrupts him to ask him again. She literally said she didn't believe the blood thing would help Sam, but she did it anyway.
Absolutely. The whole conversation in the car was a veiled sub-conversation where they both knew what they were talking about, which leads to Joel's "I'm sorry" having a double-meaning. She would know immediately that the coincidence of raiders showing up right at that time is actually unbelievable, and she knew after realizing that what actually probably went down. I think Ellie asking Joel if everything he said about the Fireflies was true wasn't her genuinely asking because she wasn't sure - it was because she wanted to give him an out and/or wanted to see how far he would take the lie to cement her as his new daughter figure, etc.
To me, that "ok" at the end has always meant "I know you're lying, and I know why you're lying, so I accept your lie, I'll allow you to lie to me, because I mean that much to you", but you can also see that she doesn't want to believe what she thinks happened. Things like these are the ones that made me fall in love with this story and the freaking nailed it on the show
I think u have it backwards. The "Ok" is because she wants to believe him, and does......just because they've been thru so much, and doesn't want to think he would flat out lie to her, so she accepts his answer.
At this point it's been almost an entire year since they left Boston. With no communication the Fireflies assumed that they had died and they had lost their cure. They attacked them as they would any outsiders in their zone, no one was looking for them. Once they realized that they had her again they immediately jumped on working towards a cure again without considering anything.
When Marlene tries to reason with Joel, saying it's what Ellie would have wanted isn't honest as they didn't give her the choice. Marlene was afraid if they gave her the option Ellie would say no. The Fireflies were in no way innocent, they've killed lots of bystanders to reach their goals. It was also said that they "think" it could make a cure, so it was good chance but not a guarantee but it was still not a question for them. It is important to note that while Marlene is the leader of the Fireflies, she couldn't tell them no as too many of them would disagree and she'd lose her command. They were going to go through with the surgery no matter what and let's not pretend that if it worked, they would just hand out that cure to everyone for free. They would hold onto it and use it as leverage against other governing groups to get their way for better or worse. It would just become another resource for people to fight over.
Joel was the inverse, he was scared if they gave her the option, she'd say yes. Dismissing Joel's choice as purely selfish isn't correct. He cares about Ellie as if she is his own child and he wants her to be able to live her life instead of being a martyr for a cause that he never believed in. Joel believes the world is this way because of how people are and isn't convinced they deserve to be saved.
Neither party gave her the choice. Ellie feels responsible for the losses of people that in her mind she could have saved, she does in a way blame herself. She thinks in completing this journey it would make those deaths of people she cared about have some value or meaning. Waking up in the car she's lost all of that meaning immediately as Joel lies to her. She's devastated. You see before the last scene her touching the scar again trying to think about what her life means now. When she confronts Joel, she is trying to explain all of this hoping that he'll give her a little more but he just doubles down on the lie. She chooses to believe him in this moment because he is all she has left. However she will always have doubts on the truth of what happened.
Finally Joel wasn't the villain, but he was never the good guy. The Fireflies weren't the good guys in that their methods would kill innocent people to reach their goals, but they weren't evil. This is why this world is so compelling, why this story works so well translated from the game to a live action show. I think the most important questions are different perspectives. Would you give your life if you knew it might change the world? Are you allowed to say no? Does anyone have the right to disagree with your decision, to make that choice for you?
Very well said.
You said it all perfectly. Also at the beginning of this episode Ellie is still trying to cope with the trauma that was inflicted upon her last episode.
Man that is a proper nice essay to explain your thought I love it, well said
Ep1- Marleen, shot in the gut talking to Joel and Joel agrees to take Ellie.
Ep 9- Marleen, shot in the gut talking to Joel and Joel decides to take Ellie.
I wonder what her audition scene was about 😂
@Olivia Neumann for who? Marlene's actress? I would assume she got her foot in the door and her resume said "well I played Marlene in the game so I know the headspace she goes thru" lol
@@TokuRewinds Yeah, i know and agree. I was trying to be sarcastic because an audition scene for Marlene would probably entail pretending to be shot and speaking with Joel, lol, my bad.
you misspelled save ellie
@@tristinsmith1220 He was saving himself at the end there, not so much Ellie.
Remember that Ellie is still suffering the trauma of the sexual assault as well which is weighing on her. I also believe that Ellie knows in her heart of hearts that Joel is lying.
She knows. The directors confirmed it.
A crazy amount of survivors guilt also
The trauma from the sexual assault is definitely weighing on her in conjunction with what she had to do to stop it. Everything cannot be translated from the video game, but this is one of those cases where the nuances from the game would have helped. Directly after the David chapter, you cut to a scene of Ellie staring blankly at a deer mural, oblivious to Joel calling out to her. It is a direct callback to what set that chain of events off - chasing that deer which led to crossing paths with David. She is definitely scarred.
@@le_petit_renard It's the meat of the second game.
She knew. But, she didn't want to die.
My husband has a daughter. She is nine. Amazing, smart, funny kid just like Ellie. He said he would have done the same. If he lost his daughter he would have burnt the world down. I think it’s easy for people to say Joel made a mistake and was being selfish. He was. But you really have to have that love for someone to do that.
It's not because we can empathize with Joel and understand why he did what he did that he's not selfish. Anyone can agree that they would do the same in Joel's shoes, but you gotta admit that doing this would be extreme selfish.
Your husband better have asked her what she wanted. It really doesn't matter what he wants.
@ I agree, with that said, I would do the same he did. It's not right, but she is his world. I'm not a mother, probably won't be, but I would do the same for my nephews.
@ It's only selfish if you trust the doctors explicitly and you think that cure wasn't a total shot in the dark.
@@d3l3tes00n Even if they got Ellie's consent to kill her, she's still a minor with survivors guilt and no mental condition to consent to death for a theory.
So regardless of what Ellie "wanted", the course of action needed to be decided by either Joel or Marlene.
I really believe that Ellie knows he's lying to her but she's so attached now she is convincing herself that he's not lying. It's too much for her to tackle right now (deciding whether she wants to push it further).
Yup. She doesn't believe him, but she *wants* to believe him
Exactly. It was not even subtle tho. How she turn back and slight disappointment in her eyes when she ask him. Excellent Ramsey performance. And i was not fan of her in 1st part of season.
@@alesksander Was her reaction the same in the game? That is, if you played it. I'm curious.
@@Carrietbeanyes
@@rillzy9637 Thanks!
The game makes it a bit clearer that Ellie’s distance in this section is due to her trauma and loss of innocence with David. It completely changed her. But the scene with the giraffes helps restore a bit of hope for her in the world.
The fact that Ellie isn’t given a choice is what saves Joel from outright being the villain here. Would Ellie have wanted to sacrifice herself if it could save humanity? Most likely. But she wasn’t given a choice here, and that’s not fair to her or Joel.
And that’s not even accounting for the fact that a traumatised child should not be making those decisions regardless. If she was 18/19 then sure… but at 14 and clearly having gone through significant trauma, there is no way she has the cognitive ability to make a rational, informed choice.
Yeah it takes away the decision from Ellie, because they'd rather make the decision to put her down for the greater good quietly than risk her last moments being incredibly distressed that she had to die if she didn't want to, even to "have a chance to save the world."
If they'd given her the choice, and she was able to look Joel in the eyes and say she needed to do it, I THINK he could've been ok with it - but we won't know.
@@kiwigirljacks But in this scenario giving Ellie the choice would of have been the right call its not ideal world kids are already killing people your talking in a normal world but in this series they are living in an end of the world scenario so hence why Ellie had to grow up fast also Ellie wants to do good in the world and nothing could be more noble than sacrificing yourself for the good of humanity also the funny thing is if Marlene told her about the operation it’s likely she would of said yes and Joel would of had no choice but to accept .
@@jackbauer5455 well, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on the morality of it. I say wait a few years. But I understand your reasoning also.
I don't think Joel would continue to bring her to the fireflies if he knew that they would kill her and not just test her blood
Ellie did not know about the brain surgery. Marlene said to Joel, "We didn't tell her. We didn't cause her any fear. There will be no pain."
11:20 I got so emotional during this scene. Joel admitting, but not exactly saying it, that Ellie gave him a new hope to life during the apocalypse is super heartwarming
Marlene wanted to save the world, but Joel wanted to save his world ...
He'll do it over and over if he had to🥺
They would never save the world. Even if they had a vaccine there are millions of infected that still pose a physical threat even if they can't infect anyone.
Marlene with cure gonna be just another Kathleen, fireflies gonna rule the world, another dictatorship. World can't be save
What about Ellie's world?
@@jinthao00 exactly. niether gave her a choice.
Jin and Angie. Put yourself in his shoe when you lose your daughter, then judge :)
About Joel being seen as a villain, I have always looked at it this way. When Joel lost Sarah it wasn't some random infected that killed her, it was a human. It was humanity of all things that took Joel's whole world away from him. So in his eyes he believes humanity doesn't deserve to be saved. And he sees Ellie as an opportunity to live the life he was denied from having. So this is basically Joel having a second chance to have a daughter and getting revenge on humanity in the process.
Joel had no thought beyond save Ellie. For him it’s the only choice. Marlene and Joel both made choices for Ellie but at the end of the day she’s a child, a traumatized one. Joel’s choice at least gave her a shot at life. I don’t hold out much hope that random doctor had either the training or equipment to accomplish their vague cure plan. You don’t kill your only subject when trying to develop something completely unknown.
@@amebecca4484 or that a broken all but defunct terrorist group being able to develop and distribute a vaccine fairly and at mass scale. Huge doubt and I expect it would just create another fascist state or world government if they were to, by some hope of a dream of a miracle, develop the vaccine.
@@amebecca4484 preech!!!!! Exactly what I thought
@@amebecca4484 YES!!!!!!!!!!!!! 100% YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Amd from ellie's point of view she has lost everyone to the infected. Her mom, Riley, Tess, Sam. The reason for going through this journey for the cure
4:16 I thought it was just me. She really does looked like Bella. I thought it was Bella at first and had to look twice!
From the sneak peeks I really thought it was Ellie delivering someone else's baby, like Maria. That they had a time jump and Ellie was all Maria had with her. But nope, it's amazing that the actress just happened to resemble her!
I love the discussion. I am convinced that Ellie knows, something wasn’t right. I am teamJoel. I don’t agree that the Fireflies prepared her for surgery immediately, without talking with Ellie and Joel about it. Joel said in episode 6, Ellie deserves a choice. I agree, it is all about perspective. Season 2 is going to be wild. I am looking forward to your reaction to it.
Mason is correct. Ellie 100% knows that Joel is lying to her.
it's an interesting point of discussion!
*spoiler alert for part 2*
actually y'know what i don't know how to put it into words because it's... pretty important in part 2 and there's too many feelings involved LOL
Wrong
Seriously. They couldn't have shown it more...
They actors for the game weren't just "voice" actors btw, they used that motion captor tech on everything from their arms and legs to their facial features.
Joel absolutely did villainous things in this and other episodes. And so did the Fireflies. To kill Ellie without letting her choose? Oof. That’s why the story is SO good. Everyone has good and evil motives. They really foreshadowed that in the show with the choice Henry made.
Some shows try to make realistic characters by ONLY making them assholes and others pull their punches on the amount of bad a protagonist does.
But this show gives us a sympathetic, caring, intelligent, dedicated protagonist who does absolutely unforgivable evil. They hit the sweet spot dead on.
And the choice to play that haunting score instead of triumphant action music really captures the theme perfectly.
I’m left saying, “It is not ok what Joel did, but he had to do it, but it’s really unconscionable, but it was the right thing, but…,”
Which is why this is so brilliant.
Laura Bailey is also in this episode. The voice actress for someone in the second game. She's one of the nurses in the hospital.
She also played the nurse in the original game. Fun little Easter egg.
I personally think the reason she was acting so different before getting to the hospital goes back to the last episode. She was almost eaten by canibals and she had to hack them to death. That would be a lot for anyone to deal with let alone a 14 year old girl. I think Joel knew that and that’s why he was trying to make small talk and found the game and let her do her silly puns and stuff.
Absolutely! He's so the dad wanting to make it better not knowing what to do. They both have been through so much alone and together. So being there for each other on an emotional level must be pretty hard.
Yes! Not only that but David held her down and insinuated he was going to assault her when he said “The fighting is the part I like the most..” So not only was she going to be killed and had to kill them first, she was going to be r*ped which is obviously hard for anyone let alone a 14 year old girl.
@@jordynnl1813 YES! Completely agree. I cannot even imagine dealing with that as an adult.
Yup that's exactly why. You can tell she's just in her head the whole time, and that's why the giraffe scene is so impactful because you can literally see her come back to herself a little bit.
He also has his wall down now, so it's a total role reversal.
You gotta feel for the actress who plays Marlene. That's the second time she gets taken out by Joel in the carpark.
thats what she deserves...
Lol
She deserved it
Bella didn't know that the procedure would cost her life. The immediately sedated her, never told her anything. Having said that the opportunity for her to decide her own fate was removed from her. She most likely would have gone ahead with the procedure.
Completely agree. I said something similar. Had she known, she probably would've said "F*ck it. Let's do it!" But she didn't know during the trip there "My blood is medicine." And she didn't understand why she had drugs in her system or why she was in a hospital gown. Doesn't seem like they told her anything. Regarding the whole argument of one to save many, is for other people. It becomes a bigger debate when it's you or your child. They took away a child's voice, her decision. So, Joel's actions were justified.
@@amymoquin8636 she also is a minor, those choices aren’t given to minors now for a reason, their brains just aren’t developed. She is a minor, who just had a year of a lot of trauma, the most in her whole life. She’s depressed, has a ton of survivors guilt, and has developed a messiah complex because she was told so much that she is the sole hope for humanity (mentioned by the writers/ directors). Of course she would say yes but I don’t think she’s in the best mind state to even be considering something like that.
And anyways you don’t kill your only subject when testing and developing something like that. The fireflies were taking rash and unethical actions, I mean it is a terrorist group.
@@mrdavman13 That would be my first question.. Marleen even said the doctor "thinks" it could work. I'd also find it unlikely that there aren't others immune out there or at least as the years go on.
Bella? lol
@@d3l3tes00n Also the theory doesn't make sense. If cordyceps "thinks that Ellie is cordyceps", why has she been bitten so many times?And how are they going to administer a "vaccine" that doesn't involve antibodies? You can't just jab fully-grown adults with human/fungus hybrid cells and expect them to replicate.
I'm excited for Season 2. When it ended I was just like "what that's it?" 43 minutes just went by sooo fast!
Exactly how it feels to finish the game too. Leaving you to sit in that ambiguity and discomfort. No other piece of media has affected me the same way
If s2 goes the way of the game you'll hate it. I didn't finish the game after a certain scene. I won't say what due to spoilers.
@@HulmeBoy09 I've read they're gonna "adjust" the story. I hope they really do.
@Viking I really, really hope they do bro.
@@HulmeBoy09 I’m w you. Lmaoo. Once I found out what happens, I didn’t buy the game for a long time. Hell I tried playing it. But couldn’t even get past the intro.
Joel thought that Elliee was talking about survivors guilt, but that isn't what she meant. She mentioned Riely, Tessa, and Sam because they all died because of the cordyceps. She was trying to explain why finding a cure was important to her because it was personal. Ellie knew people who were close to her that she lost to this plague.
I totally agree. I actually believe it was intended to contrast with Joel being subconsciously driven by the fact that MAN, not the fungus, is what took Sarah from him and so it wasn't personal for him to fight the fungus.
probably one of the best shows to come out this year. HBO is on a roll! your reactions never fail to do it justice!
Currently HBO has House Of The Dragon, TLOU, Barry and Succession. Wow.
@@Rknowles813 Don't forget the White Lotus, that shit slaps
@@i_Crie Wasn't a huge fan of S2, but S1 was great.
She 100% didn't believe him, and I always thought it was obvious. Surprised by Dave's reaction.
I thought so too at first but I actually think she suspects he's lying about something but doesn't want to dare to doubt him and what would that mean for other stuff too. So she needs him to be truthful, for her own good
I definitely think she knows he is lying. I don't think he is a villian, just a parent.
Beautifully adapted!
My thoughts on Ellie. The reason for her quiet behavior and coldness is due to what happened in the last episode. To be traumatized, not just by taking out David, but to also be taken advantage of as she was. We saw her lose a bit of a her innocence in a way at that moment and that takes a toll. Enjoyed the reactions!
The Last of Us, a story of love and consequence.
When I first finished the game I felt exactly this: She strongly suspects he's lying, but she doesn't *want* him to be lying. He's her father in every way, and it would destroy her if he took away what she wanted because he couldn't let go of her. What happened to Riley informed her entire life. She lost the love of her life, and she had a chance to make that mean something and to die poetically, but Joel took that away from her.
As to Joel, I absolutely see him as the villain but as a father you can't help but sympathize with his actions. For me what pushes him into villain territory is that Ellie would have wanted to die. It was her choice. It was what she wanted to do, even if it might not work, and he ignored that for his own desires.
But guys, listening to your discussion is 10/10 because this debate has been going on in the fandom since the day the game released.
Agreed except Joel isn't her father. Definitely her friend. They've known eachother like half a year. People jump too much to call her his child when he's just pushing her into that role when it's not her place.
@@mattb7479 oh I fully agree. She's *not* his daughter. Him turning her into a replacement for Sarah isn't healthy and it's what causes him to do this. They're very codependent at this point, but ultimately she's her own person and Joel took that away from her.
Another reason I don’t think Ellie was prepared to die or sacrifice her self was because of the continuous reaffirming of life after they are done. Throughout this whole season there are countless times including this episode where she references life after they are done. It’s up in the air on whether she would’ve sacrificed her self but I don’t think she was going there prepared to do that because of the amount of times she referenced either going back to Jackson or the sheep farm after they are done with the fireflies. If she was prepared to die I don’t think she would talk about living her life with Joel afterwards or try to give the blood like you guys said.
Amazing you guys had a respectful conversation with multiple perspectives within minutes, the internet is still arguing a decade later
she was really distracted because the event that occurred last episode with david.....there is a big cameo of a voice actor in the hospital scene..
Ellie definitely didn't know she would be killed. You have to remember that she was making plans with Joel right before they got to the hospital. She said after we do this we can go wherever you want. That she'll follow him anywhere.
One of the things we need to remember when discussing the rights or wrongs of Joel's decision, is his trauma (Sarah dying) but also the discussion Joel and Ellie had earlier in the episode about Joel's injury above his eye. He came clean and was very vulnerable when he explained that he had actually tried to end his life. And he asks her if she knows why he's talking about this. He is trying to show how much he cares, and how much she means to him. But it's also a bit of foreshadowing, that scene. If Ellie were given the choice, I truly believe she would have chosen to die, sacrificing herself for others just like her own mother sacrificed herself for her child. Ellie knows Joel's trauma, and going back to the first episode, I think Marlene probably told Ellie more about her beginnings than we saw on camera when they had her chained in that room. She probably knows generally what happened to her mother. She would have asked. Kids are curious. So she was sacrificing herself. I think this is going to be the arc for season 2, and she will realize what Joel actually did in lying, and not be happy about it. Then we'll have to see how they wrestle with all of that. I also feel that Ellie did not know she was going to have to die. First, she tried to use her blood as medicine for Sam. And second, she was surprised when she woke up in the back seat of the car. She asked why she had been given drugs, why she had been knocked out, and where were her clothes. That tells me she was not expecting that. Knowing that, it may have changed her thoughts on being the cure. Another thing to think about. Let me just say also I really appreciate your reactions to this. They are not superficial and I like how you guys try to flesh out everything. It makes for good dialogue
In regards to Ellie, I think it's a mixture of both Mason's and Appleton Oak's ideas. Ellie was sad and somber at the beginning of the episode because of the horrible things she experienced and her trauma in the last episode. A person doesn't get almost eaten and SA'd and walk away from that unscathed. You carry that pain with you, for the rest of your life. That was days or weeks ago for her, the wounds are still fresh. But I also think she was also thinking about having to leave Joel and that's why she said she will follow him anywhere when she has fulfilled her duty to the world. I also felt like she knew Joel was lying and that's why she asked. If you believe someone from the start, you don't have to ask them to swear something was true in the first place.
I wouldn't necessarily say it's a co-incidence that Ashley looks like Bella - I'd say that one of the reasons Bella was picked was because she had similar characteristics to Game!Ellie, who had been designed with Ashley in mind.
I also took Ellie's silence this episode as PTSD after David - I think she 100% thought that she'd go to the hospital, drop off some blood, and then go, as she said, wherever Joel wanted.
In terms of the morality, I think neither the Fireflies nor Joel come off as the heroes here. I personally believe you can't ask someone to die for you, no matter how great the cause. It's far, far too much to ask. They have to volunteer. That's why I think the Fireflies come off bad here - They didn't even *ask*. they just jumped straight to cutting her brain apart.
What makes Joel come off wrong is that ultimately, Marlene is right. Ellie 100% *would* have volunteered, had they sat down and explained the situation to her. Ultimately neither Joel nor Marlene asked Ellie what she wanted to do - Marlene because she was afraid she'd say no, and Joel because he knew she'd say yes.
To me, that then raises the question of - Should a fourteen-year-old be allowed to make that decision? The closest parallel i can draw in real life is to wartime service, where young men and women sign up to do what they think is right, knowing that it might cost them their lives. In the US, the minimum age of enlistment is 17. Where I am, in the UK, it's 16. I know the apocalypse changes things, but I genuinely don't know whether it's morally right to allow a fourteen-year-old to die for the "greater good", even if she wants to. I'm perched right on the fence and I lean either way depending on the day.
I think that indicates a top-tier moral dilemma.
I take her final "okay" before the credits as, if not belief, acceptance. I think she knows Joel isn't being entirely truthful with her, but I think, at that moment, she's willing to let it go because she trusts him.
I think a major driving factor for Joel is that he doesn't believe the world is worth saving. He's jaded, and he's seen the horrific things human beings can do to one another. I think, from his perspective, he 100% thinks the human race isn't worth Ellie's sacrifice.
Final edit: I am praying that the success of The Last Of Us means they'll take another stab at Uncharted, this time as a TV show, seeing as it's made by the same studio and chunks of it are written by the same people, and even stars the same cast.
What's so tragic is that this all potentially could've been avoided if the Fireflies just communicated and asked for Ellie's consent. Marlene even said "What would Ellie do? She'd wanna do the right thing." If she really believed that, why didn't they let Ellie make the decision herself and tell Joel directly "This is what I want." He may still have been against it, but it would've had a lot more weight coming from her than from Marlene saying he's selfish
Because that would make them feel bad. Ellie saying no wasn't an option, Marlene and the fireflies have sacrificed innocent people, have lost families and have started wars for freedom. This cure is everything they want and need to have the power over fedra. If ellie said no, they would drug her and kill joel instantly. That is why the ending is so controversial, Marlene wasn't gonba let Ellie go and Joel wasn't gonna let Ellie die.
@Jessica Robles I agree that they probably would've taken her by force if she said no, but I honestly don't believe she would've said no in the first place so it wouldn't have come to that. I'm not saying it all would've worked out perfectly and everything would be dandy if they took that route, but it sure as hell would've been BETTER than not getting consent
LOVE
Even knowing someone would 100% say yes, would you let them? Let that decision be their last thought?
Especially if you believe that saying yes is tantamount to suicide without the benefit of any imbalance and may somehow taint the soul, would you risk it?
If you love someone, better to taint your own soul with "murder", than let that person you love taint theirs with suicide.
In the game, she’s already unconscious before prepping her for surgery.
The actor that plays Ellie's mother in this is the person that did the voice in the game, but she also did the Motion capture for the game and Ellie was based on how she looked. That's why she looks so much like Ellie, she was not only the voice but the face of Ellie in the games.
Ashley Johnson
What???
Ashley's face was not modeled as Ellie in the game
@@vlrema2898 She was the voice of Ellie and motion captured her. But they didn't base Ellie's appearance on Ashley though.
There was no guarantee that they even could even make a cure. The fireflies accomplice absolutely noting in 20 years.
The detail with the doctor picking up a scalpel was in the game as well. I think it's neat, because it shows how much of a nerd he is. A valuable nerd who had other people protecting him.
More like a scumbag lunatic scientist.
Omg that post discussion is everything, plus yall comments throughout that are hints for part 2 and what's to come. Can't wait till season 2. It's ginna be chaos
Oh.... Can't wait to see this!
@@BaddMedicineAre you guys going to wait for the physical season 2 to come out or will you watch The Last of Us 2 gameplay first ~?🎉
I think one of the reasons I was so opposed to the idea of having a sequel was, when they first made The Last of Us, this was the actual ending they'd envisioned and I thought it was perfect. It opened up so many conversations and we all had the discussion about what Ellie's "Okay." meant. I loved that it is left ambiguous. For me, I always thought that she knew deep down that he was lying but she chose to believe him.
In an earlier episode, in the scene where Joel says he wants a sheep ranch, Ellie describes what she thinks will happen with the Fireflies as "they'll take my blood and run some tests or whatever" so I don't think there's any reason to believe she knew she'd die from doing this. However, I do think it's more ambiguous whether she believed Joel or not. Bella herself said she thinks Ellie can tell Joel is lying, but the games made it even more uncertain (and there are things from the second game I can't spoil that also make me think she's unsure about his level of truthfulness) But it's possible they changed this for the show and she DOES know and they're gonna go a slightly diff route with how things play out later
Ellie was never told that she would die for the possibility of a cure. She might've done it anyway but by not telling her, they took away her choice thus, making Joel's actions totally understandable. I think Ellie's somberness at the beginning was due to the trauma she went through. It changed her completely, which is why Joel looked so relieved when she started laughing at the giraffe. I do think that she knows Joel is lying to her (She's making a decision to believe him) but I don't see him as a villain. It's the selfish side of love, especially the love of a child. That hospital scene was brutal but oddly beautiful. The music really elevated it. Perfection.
Pedro has been hitting it out of the park. Mando, Last of Us, I can't wait to see what comes next.
He was also good in Narcos for a support ing role
@@annamariepowell9162 havnt seen that yet
Ashley did mocap for Ellie, so though not identical there is a likeness between them. Bella was casted because of her similar appearance to Ashley/Ellie but also just her acting and overall appearance. It’s natural. Ashley was then cast as her mother for her similarity to Bella/Ellie. I love how it all circles back. Lol
This episode is the most accurate to to the game, from the ladder to the giraffe's to the minivan. To the: "Okay." Spot on.
I think the biggest thing was the fact that Ellie wasn't given the choice to CONSENT to the operation before going in. She was given no info, just knocked out and prepped.
I feel like she was sad that their journey was coming to an end and the next chapter is unknown for her. 'Will he leave meafter this?' sort of thing
So stoked to see Ashley Johnson as the mum 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
As a fan of the game this was incredible 😊
Ellie's melancholic state is due to the trama she suffered with David. I don't think she believes she will be separated from Joel at that moment - they talked about future plans. And she definitely knew he was lying. To me, she questioned him in the end to test him, and her "okay" at is acknowledging that he is someone she can't fully trust anymore but she is choosing to try to move past it. We will see in this next season how she deals with that distrust.
At the end of the episode I think Ellie was just still completely processing everything... Including Joel's 360 turn around on his kindness..
It’s great that they got the Game Ellie to give birth to the TV Ellie. Kind of a passing of the baton.
That was cute. "They did an amazing job with casting, that actress looks a lot like Ellie." Ellie in the game looks like Ashley Johnson (mocap performances) and they probably thought about that when casting Bella.
This season went by soooo fast. This episode was perfect. 💜
Watching your reactions to this show has been a pleasure. Coming from a huge fan of both games, it was a treat seeing all your insights and commentary.
I saw a comment somewhere that summerised everything i was thinking when talking about Joel and his choice. It went like this: "His personal feelings for Ellie aside, Joel was absolutely in the right to stop the surgery. There is so much wrong with the way the fireflies handled Ellie both medically and ethically.
From a medical standpoint they went straight for terminal neurosurgery after having her in a lab for like, a day? No additional long term tests run? No long term bloodwork? Stress tests to see how her body handles the theoretically symbiotic fungi? Long term tests or observations to see how her body may change over time having this fungus? That's not even counting the fact that she’s the only known carrier of this immunity-granting fungus, so if anything goes wrong with the extraction of the fungus from ellie that's it. No time to try to find another solution, just head to life ending surgery immediately.
The development of this vaccine would have been groundbreaking even in the modern world pre-cordyceps, yet they give it a fraction of the time and consideration, and with a sliver of the research and development resources that would have been available before the outbreak. It was a long shot even under the best of circumstances.
Also there is the consideration that the story of The Last of Us occurs roughly 20 years after outbreak day, and the attending surgeon for Ellie’s surgery looks to be in his 40’s, if we’re being generous, which would likely have made him around 20-25 around the outbreak. This would have put him as being a med student or resident at best once the world ended, not a neurosurgeon with years of experience. How qualified is this guy really to even perform this surgery in the first place? Or even recommend that performing a terminal surgery is the only way to extract those cells from Ellie? Or guarantee they’d be able to take those cells and successfully reproduce them in a lab with minimal staff and resources as well as the lack of ability to even sterilize environments properly because it is the POST APOCALYPSE. Do they have all the relevant specialists to develop this treatment? One neurosurgeon is not going to be able to accurately and safely perform this literal MIRACLE on his own, not without a massive amount of help and resources that the Fireflies almost certainly do not have access to.
Then even assuming that the cure was somehow made and worked perfectly, how do you have anywhere near the logistics possible to produce a vaccine/treatment on a mass scale and distribute it to quote “everyone”? That's all the materials required to safely store, transport, and administer this vaccine to all the people in all different geographic situations in at the very least, the continental US. This would be impossible unless the world had returned to some state industrialization, which it is clear by the end of The Last of Us that it has not. This would all even be assuming the treatment interacts with all people properly and is always administered correctly. AND assuming that the cordyceps doesn’t adapt and overcome the treatment once it has been used in a massive population. That's way too many assumptions and “if’s” to be able to justify choosing to immediately end Ellie’s life.
And THEN there's the complete lack of moral/ethical considerations. Not only was Ellie never offered the chance to give informed consent to this life ending procedure, and was purposefully kept unconscious the whole time, even if she was awake and fully lucid she’s likely not even able to give informed consent at the time. Not only is she a minor, but at the time in the story she’s clearly displaying strong symptoms of PTSD, possibly depression, potentially has survivor’s guilt, and she could be prone to making reckless, self-distructive, or even suicidal decisions because of it. Even if Ellie said “yes, please kill me with this surgery for the vaccine” there’s no way to guarantee she is capable of fully coming to that conclusion in a completely informed and rational way on her own. Not to mention the fact that the fireflies would have been pressuring the hell out of her to go through with it. And if Ellie said no, they almost certainly would have forced her to go through with it anyway. Like Marline had even said, the fireflies made it seem as though there was no other choice, when there absolutely was.
Joel was absolutely right to step in and stop an incompetent group of wannabe saviors from rushing to recklessly and needlessly kill Ellie."
Great reaction guys! Marlene never gave Ellie the option either. It didn’t come across in the show that Ellie knew it could be a one-way ticket for her. We’re left with knowing that Joel did the right thing for himself to not lose another daughter. But Ellie, despite her characterization as “always doing the right thing”, could’ve also changed her mind. And that’s a possibility that Marlene probably didn’t want to entertain. Beauty about this episode is that all perspectives are valid and until you’re in that moment, you never really know what you’re gonna do. Druckman in the Podcast explained the genesis of that moral dilemma when he had a conversation with his Dad. Worth listening to. Thanks again guys!
Ellie definitely didn't think she would die there. She said she wanted to "follow Joel anywhere" after she fulfilled her obligations.
The overarching ethical problem is that Ellie is a minor with survivor's guilt and savior complex. So even if she agreed to die for the doctor's theory, it's not ethical in the slightest. I don't understand why the doctors didn't do some other tests, maybe investigate her blood or bone marrow before digging into her brain as a last resort. The Fireflies came off as totally shady and theory was such a shot in the dark.
@@johnjungkook2721 Great points you brought up! “Surely” there must’ve been another doctor alive where a second opinion or third opinion can be had. Thanks!
I felt the genuine parental love from Joel towards Ellie, overall an almost perfect first season!!!
...still not enough zombies though 😬
Alternative happy ending!
Marlene and her crew of doctors sit Ellie and Joel down calmly and explain them everything honestly. If Marlene was right about Ellie (which i think she was) then Ellie would be okay with dedicating her life to find the cure, even at 60% succesrate. Ellie would be able to explain to Joel that this is the only way forward in a way he could accept. He could have his goodbye and go on to perhaps live happily having had closure. But blindsiding him this way, it could ONLY end in disaster. I guess Marlene thought she had picked the coldest macho dude in Boston, who wouldn’t bond with a strange 14 year old, to escort Ellie, but this whole plan just backfired massively on her.
Another Last of Us game series actor is in this episode besides Ashley Johnson. Playing one of the nurses in the operating theatre is Laura Bailey who is a very very prolific anime and video game voice actor (over 70 anime/animated series and over 150 video games) Laura voices one of the new main characters in Part2 but also did some minor voices in the first Last of Us game.
Agree with the praise to all the subtle realism details of this show. One I REALLY loved --- did you catch his first long pause on his escort out of the building?? He was reading the hospital floorplan board to see what floor peds surgery is on. Really nice touch.
Oak, pediatrics is 0 to 18 years old and would have the appropriately size equipment they would need, mask, etc, for surgery.
On the official podcast they say play testers of the game were basically 50/50 as to whether they agreed with Joel’s decision apart from parents who 100% agreed he did the right thing.
The first thing I notice was the actor playing. Anna looked exactly like an older version of Ellie. At first I thought somehow they did some kind of CGI because I swear this is just Ellie and an older age. The episode was fantastic. I know people are going to say it wasn't long enough but it said so much in that short span of time, especially during the hospital Shane when he's walking through taking out the fireflies. And I like how they muffled the sound. And I want to say that was because of his hearing but it didn't take away from anything because you knew exactly. He had a mission to do and he was not going to anyone stop him. And I would like to thank you guys for being honest jerking with those of us who've never played the game
Anna is actually Ashley Johnson, who played Ellie in the video game!
@@ChillJunky Yes I know that, I'm just saying that the similarities to each one of them is just undeniable. Undeniable. And you know for a person who's watched shows and have seen them do the deep fake for a second I thought that's what they were doing. Again, I've never seen the game so I don't know who the actor is who portrayed Ellie in the video game.
My first reaction was the same, even before I realized who the character was - wow, that actor looks so much like Bella Ramsey! I know it was Ellie from the game, but regardless of that, it was perfect casting.
I didn't thought it was CG, I thought it was Bella Ramseys older sister or something (I don't even know if she has one xD) ...
The ending of the Last of Us and the debate it cause is what makes it so great. We’ve been discussing this for years as gamers of the decision Joel made was right or wrong and I love that the show stuck the landing!
I cried so hard during the episode. Excited to see your reaction.
She will have some memories come back from that night as we go in Season 2 and it will be an issue!
Bella confirms that the person that she trusts most in the world is lying to her. Having played both games, once you understand the themes for each it makes sense. Ellie is upset with Joel, and you’ll see that in season 2, because they grow distant. It takes Ellie the entirety of next season to understand why Joel did what he did, but more importantly to really make peace with it and forgive. Season 2 will be a long journey to that and I can’t wait to see it.
"Having played both games" you should not be making comments like this. Just spoiling major plot points about an entire season that hasn't come out yet.
@@justsherman4 I wouldn’t say that’s a major plot point, just my opinion on their dynamic in the next game.
@@epiccgamingtv wrong
@@justsherman4 🙄 ok
huge spoiler holy, please dont comment this on other reaction videos
Joel revealing he attempted to unalive himself really broke my heart-it makes it hit harder when you remember how much he tried to help Henry not do the same-he’d been there before. I imagine it was additionally harder for Pedro to perform that scene because he lost his mom the same way when he was younger. I think Joel maybe could sense some depression in Ellie and wanted to share that story with her to tell her he’s been there and that she’ll be okay. ❤
“doctors, maybe they have an ellie at home” true. lol. lmao
Joel did what he needed to do to save Ellie. Everyone always says they would sacrifice one for the greater good but if that was your loved one, would you say the same thing? I would be like Joel killing everyone in my way to save my loved one.
Also I don’t think Ellie knew she was gonna die because Marlene said to Joel that they didn’t tell her anything and so she’s not scared. I think she felt like she was going to be okay and follow Joel wherever he goes after this visit.
I think y’all are both right ..she knows he is lying but doesn’t want to believe him because she scared of being betrayed by the only person she loves and trust like Maria said “the only people that can betray us are the ones we trust “and she also is disappointed about the cure not being real and that she is just a nobody again like she was in fedra school .
I didn't play the game but I remember well someone posting a video with that giraffe years ago. Cool seeing it "live" now.
Fav Ep was nr 3. Because it hit home of my own lost love.
Great reactions! And thank you for being one of only a few reactors who realised why Ellie was being distant & quiet; knowing it was an indicator of her trauma.
Great show guys enjoyed the whole series. I forgot who mentioned it but one of you guys said the creators wanted these kinds of discussions when they wrote it and that is true. These same conversations and discussions happened ten years ago when the game came out really cool to see people discovering it all over again via the show now.
Ashley Johnson looks like Ellie since not only did she voice Ellie she did the mocap
Ashley Johnson did amazing in that opening scene even though I kept saying she looks and sounds just like Ellie. I love how they shot that hospital scene it really gave the tv audience who didn’t play the game that same feeling of us who did which is did Joel really do the right thing even though we know why he did it.
I grew up with the first game and can confidently say season 1 was fantastic. One of if not the best video game adaptations! The second game is great too, a little controversial but I can’t wait to watch it and for you guys to see it!
the parallel scene between Joel holding Sarah and holding Ellie tho💔 i knew right away that time he would not risk a soul to shoot the gun first like what happened with Sarah🥺
These vids(and frankly, all of your reactions) are the hilight of my week! Thank you guys
Important to note, they were fully willing to kill the only immune person they knew about, and Marlene states that the doctor *THINKS* thats how the immunity works and *THINKS* it *COULD* be a cure.
Gents, your discussion after the show (actually, after everything you watch) is EXACTLY why I love hearing your reactions - respectful disagreement, good-humoured banter, intelligent observation and appreciation for the storytelling and execution! Your differing opinions have been the perfect way to end S1, especially given how jam-packed with morally-grey choices and what-would-I-do moments each episode has been! What a fantastic adaptation this has been - long may the game AND the show receive the plaudits they deserve!
The reason think Ellie was quite and not talking like she usually do because what almost happened to her got to realize she is still a kid. About the end I think Ellie was trying to convince her stuff that the person she trust and look up to wouldn’t do that and the truth is to scary to accept.
I mean that would even traumatize most adults too
This was a wild ride ! Glad y’all enjoyed it love y’all’s channel so much ❤❤❤🎉
you guys should really check out the "inside the episode" specials they did after each episode, especially episode 9 because they explain everything with the actors, game-maker and the producer. they're also releasing/released a "the making of the last of us" which would be great to check out!
There's a line where Marlene says "We didn't tell her anything. She won't feel any fear or pain" (or something like that). Ellie definitely didn't know she wasn't supposed to wake up.
true but then at the parking lot Marlene agrees that it wasn't her choice nor Joel, and ask what Ellie would do, and they can still change it no matter what Joel already did
that sounded like giving Ellie the chance to choose Joel shot Marlene cause Ellie already told him that everything cannot be for nothing
and after shot her again in the head cause she would go back to look for ellie
@@dulcealvarez6071 Yeah, Ellie probably WOULD have chosen to go through with it, which is why Joel couldn't give her that choice. I don't think he could have refused her, but losing another 'daughter' would have destroyed him. Marlene was trying to convince Joel that this is what Ellie would have wanted. From the earlier conversation I quoted above, though, it doesn't sound like Marlene gave her the choice either. If Joel hadn't made it to the operating room in time, Ellie still wouldn't have known she was going to die.
@ZaberFangAT my point is that the parking lot scene was the breaking point, at that point Marlene was at the point to accept ellie's choice but Joel didn't, not only shot Marlene he kill her cause he knew she would look for Ellie and Ellie will go with her willingly, the selfish decision was taken by Joel and ultimately is the one who took away ellie's choice
somebody call the doctor!.... well uhhhh....uhm
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I can say that they did the thing for "fight your way to save Ellie" so _accurately_ good as in the game. That's how would i exactly imagine as he unleashes his wrath against the *Firefly Militia NPCs.*
I played the Remastered version of the game and going guns blazing yet they wore armor. Pain of the asses that's for sure unlike the show where they didn't go fully-armored up for their helmets and vests. Poor dumb bastards they are trapped there with him XD
I don’t think Ellie understood that she might have died, she was telling Joel that she would follow him to “Tommy’s or the sheep ranch or to the moon.” I think she did want to save the world but she was also constantly asking questions and wanting to learn things throughout the series. She was so curious about things that she didn’t listen or understand some consequences like when Joel tried to warn her about the mass grave in Epjsode 3 but at the end of the day she’s a 14 year old who never left the quarantine zone before so it’s only fair that she’s very curious. This question about if she is the cure was the biggest question she wanted answered (which is why I believeher reaction at the end is disappointment with uncertainty because she wasn’t awake to witness anything, but her trust in Joel ultimately convinces her to take his word). Even though she had learned a lot on her journey Joel had experienced and seen a lot more than she had, so I do think she didn’t understand the other consequences and was therefore less cautious than Joel.
I also think Joel understood that Marlene wasn’t going to give Ellie a choice. Marlene said that they didn’t tell Ellie they were going through with the procedure so she wouldn’t worry but in other words Marlene just didn’t want to tell her so that Ellie couldn’t have the opportunity to back out. I believe it made Joel think of Sarah and how the soldiers decided to kill her and others so they could save the many. Joel was able to recognize that that decision didn’t work even though the soldiers thought they were doing the right thing with trying to save the many. And in episode 2 when Ellie asked if the bombings of cities worked and Tess said for a little while but no they didn’t. I believe all of those things, but most especially Joel’s love for Ellie, greatly influenced him to save her. Joel had been in multiple positions where people were killing the few to save the many and he wasn’t going to give Ellie up to chance after all of those disappointments.
It was a doctors theory with 2003 scientific knowledge who knows if her sample would be enough or was even the answer. Maybe a spinal tap first? Throwing a stun grenade when the fireflies had to know they where looking for a man and teenager……….they are bonded thru this cross country trip both with losses. Can’t wait for Season 2, the music, sound, sets/locations and story. Great reaction!
Ellie didn't know she was going to die.
In this episode she was still with post abuse trauma after what she went thru with David and she was also stressed about what's coming after arriving to Fedra quarters.
Both Marlene and Joel were in the wrong, because they decided for Ellie, they didn't give her a choice.
Regarding awards... it will be very interesting having in mind House Of The Dragon will be also present in pretty much the same categories.
One is fantasy and one is science fiction are those 2 put together?
Just realized that vantage point around 15:19 is like someone is peeking out of a door while hiding and it's probably a very important person from part 2!!!!!
man I really love yall discussions. Yall really go in and give your own perspectives
Thank you for checking out the reviews🤜🤛
Im coming back to this video when i finish the episode.. DAMN, like.. it’s 6:46 AM for me.
love the subtle looks that diamond dave gives us, trying not to spoil it to the other guys but also saying “they have no idea whats about to happen” 😂.
Try to avoid any spoilers about the second game, it makes the show more fun to watch and gives it more tension.
hahah. Yeah... i will postpone my watch of gameplay of part 2 to get the TV experience first now.
For context around the Giraffe scene, here in Salt Lake City, Utah, we've got a zoo where, at least when I was a kid, they had Giraffes!
I'd like to think may have fed the parent of the Giraffe that Ellie feeds as a kid 😁
Druckman is such a genius.
A reminder that no one knew about the 2nd game.
The ending was just that.
But because we KNOW there is another one, reactions have been affected.
Joel is NOT replacing Sara. That's like telling a parent that they're only allowed to love one of their children.
He even says how they're different and he spent so long slowly warming up to Ellie. If he wanted to replace Sara he would've done it before 20 years had passed or immediately latched onto Ellie and treated her differently.
Also FUN cameo! Laura Bailey is one of the nurses just like in the game!
I'm so happy with how the show turned out and hope that this encourages networks to make shows and movies that actually care about the narratives.
Anyway, love the reactions!
Hope you guys have a good day!