Wing Sung 699 Fountain Pen Review
Вставка
- Опубліковано 30 сер 2020
- This pen was kindly sent to me by my friend Bill - thank you!
Check out my website: www.sbrebrown.com
Support my work: / sbrebrown
Befriend me on facebook: www.facebook.nl/stephenbrebrown
Follow me on twitter: / sbrebrown
Add me on google+: Stephen B.R.E. Brown
Follow me on Instagram: / sbrebrown
Talk to me on FPN: StephenBrown
Talk to me on fpgeeks.com: StephenBrown - Навчання та стиль
I have one in a very nice transparent blue with gold trim. Very nice pen. Wing Sung has come out with exactly the same pen but it is a piston filler instead of a vacuum filler for those that prefer that difference. Great value for the buck.
What exactly on the Pilot 823 could be under patent? The filling mechanism was invented by Sheaffer, in 1934.
@Je Ko…Exactly! It’s the only comment I wished to make on this video. But you saved me the trouble. Btw, I have both the PC 823 and the WS 699.
I have an opinion on the copying aspect, and I'll try to convince you why it's a good thing and needs to be done more. We have to start with the difference between design and art, which is a bit difficult with fountain pens since they fall into both categories. But in general, art is better when it's completely original, while design benefits from being as familiar as possible. When learning how to design, the best approach is to copy something that already works. In the process you might start to understand what makes the design good, and possibly improve things as you go along.
This is what I see Wing Sung (and others) are doing. They start with a very close copy of a proven design, and then improve or add to it. With the 699 they made the section removable, which makes cleaning much easier. One of the few downsides with the 823 is the difficulty of cleaning the pen. Now they've made a piston filler version of the 699, for those who like the overall design but are not fond of the original filling mechanism.
Another example which has been out for much longer is the Wing Sung 601. The first iteration was almost a true copy of the Parker 51. In later versions they improved the filling mechanism from diafram to draw filler and eventually a pump filler. They also expanded the design, giving a choice of ink windows or even a fully transparent one. Then they added the 601A with a triumph type nib instead of a hooded one, and now they even have a version with a regular #5 nib. Jinhao 51A is another Parker 51 imitation, as the name implies. But it makes the design available in many different finishes, including wood and acrylic, in addition to #5 nib options and using a converter.
Most of the non-counterfeit Chinese copies add make new versions or small changes to the design. Take the Jinhao 599, a Lamy Safari copy, but with a #5 nib and it takes standard international cartridges / converters. Lamy would never release such a version of the Safari, so it's good that someone else made the Safari design available for those who want other nib or cartridge options.
Which brings me to another benefit of copying; it is the most effective way of standardization and limiting proprietary solutions. This can be done in two ways: Either by copying a design and substituting the proprietary solutions with standard ones (like the Jinhao 599 does), or by using someone else's proprietary solution in your own designs. The way we see Wing Sing using Pilot or Lamy style nibs in some pens instead of creating their own proprietary solution. It opens up so many more options for the consumer. Pilot only sells the Metropolitan with a medium nib in Europe, so many have used Wing Sung 698 replacement nibs to expand their options, since Pilot themselves don't sell nibs separately. Or if you like the Sailor 1911 design but prefer Pilot nibs, you can use an original Pilot nib in a Wing Sung 9133.
Of course there are quality differences, but copying, improving and adding to other's design helps remove these arbitrary limitations. It is an important part of innovation in the market. Apple were not the first to make smart phones with touch screens, but they introduced multi-touch capacitive screens made of glass, which turned out to be a huge success. And all phone manufacturers started copying them. Should they have done so just because they could? Yes, yes, they should. Because it made the design available in affordable options, outside the Apple ecosystem and forced competition to continue. So should Wing Sung copy the Pilot Custon 823 design if they can? Yes, yes, they should. Because the 823 is a good pen, but availability is restricted, color options are limited, prices are marked-up and the design does have some downsides which they are improving.
So there you have some arguments to why imitation is a good thing. However, it you regard pens as art more than a utility, then imitation will never be acceptable.
Having lived a couple years in China, intellectual property arguments no longer work on me. I buy $20 pens, I do not buy $200 pens. If I wanted this pen, I would buy it.
No controversy at all. IP law is an EXCEPTION to the common law rule that IP does not exist, and only applies for a temporary time, with the express purpose of financial reward to those who disseminate ideas to the world. As such, when permitted, it is NEVER intended as a permanent monopoly on an idea or design - quite the opposite. It is not just a RIGHT to use the idea, the intention is that if it isca good idea, it be disseminated and used by everyone. [Also PATENTS are given ONLY for innovations which (at least in theory) are an improvement on technology. I doubt the 823 ever qualified for a patent]
Underrated comment.
And if it did, then it would have long ago expired.
Not very clear on the process, but you would be surprised to know the kind of things that get patents. I work as a mechanical engineer (designer) and I've seen companies patent even slight changes in shape, cooling, branding, colors and even manufacturing and assembly process. It doesn't necessarily needs to be a ground breaking innovation. Depending on the country; if you have an idea, write a good proposal, enough money and time (after 1-4 years, the ones I've seen), you can get a patent.
R&D is awesome, but (as everything) it can get pretty ridiculous.
Ps. China is the wild west regarding intellectual property. My boss used to tell me they would destroy the plastic injection molds before disposing of them when he lived in Shenzhen, just to be sure.
I have four of these in different colours. All wrote perfectly. I left all four inked with different inks of different brands for 9 months without using them. I wrote with them last week. All four started writing immediately with no skips or hard starts. I don't find the 823 attractive enough at the current retail price but at $20.00 apiece for these I find the quality very acceptable.
Mine came with a medium nib. Very smooth, no feedback, quite wet. One of my best writers. Always has Herbin Rose Cyclamen in it. Solid construction. I love it.
Yes patents and intellectual property are protected for a reason, but one key point to note is that the market for the products are completely different. Gold nib, premium brand, hundreds of dollars etc, compared to steel nib, affordable plastic, under 20 dollars. I don't believe the claim of "fake pens are stealing business away from legitimate companies", because somebody who wants the gold nib and premium experience of the Pilot 823 isn't going to compromise with a WS699. Likewise, somebody who can't afford a Pilot 823 won't buy one. Even so, perhaps some who are on the fence about the ergonomics etc of an 823 may elect to purchase a 699 since it's such a close replica, and then purchase an 823 if they like it. Some who just want an inexpensive fountain pen that works and buy the 699 may find that they enjoy it very much and proceed to upgrade to an 823. As far as I can see, there really isn't much competition, and both parties can actually benefit, even if one benefits more than the other.
Another note: fake pens can be condemned. The Wing Sung 699 isn't a "fake" Pilot 823 because it isn't pretending to be the latter, with a gold nib being sold for 20 times more. The sellers aren't trying to scam anyone and buyers are clearly aware that they're not buying a Pilot 823. It's a different pen that caters to a different market, even though it's a clone/knockoff/inexpensive copy etc.
Wing Sung 699 like almost all 6XX series fountain pens from Wing Sung also comes with 14 K gold nibs at about 100 $ .:)
@@fountainpencollection8337 oh that's right I forgot they have that version now. They also have the piston filler version of the 699. Regardless, my point stands.
edit: the WS 699 14k gold nib is only offered in F and M, while the Pilot #15 nib offered on the 823 can be found from EF to C (incl SF, SFM) as well as Posting, Waverley, FA, and stub, albeit not in all regions.
Yeah, and there's no problem selling fake Rolex if the name on it is Bollex with a slight effect on the "B". There are quality affordable pens out there, no need to buy a copy.
@@r.g.stavros5711 If you try to pass a similar name to an exact lock that it's still a fake here we have an entirely different animal wing Sung 699 it is heavily inspired by the Pilot 823 it will bee a fake otherwise!
well if we are on the subject heavily inspired, from who Pilot gets inspired for the 823?
Maybe Mont Blanc !?
Then why not buy the original from MB :)
Also TWSBI for the ECO and 580 they heavily inspired by Pelikan .
There are so few truly original designs the rest are in a way or another inspired from somewhere more or less.
@@r.g.stavros5711 That would clearly be an attempt to use the Rolex brand while avoiding direct litigation. The Wing Sung pen company has decades of history and many lines of pens. As far as I can see, the only direct design aspects that can be interpreted as being "copied" from the Pilot 823 is the different coloured end caps/finial, or the recognisable amber colour. The Wing Sung 699 is just another cigar shaped vacuum filler (they also make a piston filler with the same design, and have a greater range of colour options), and it doesn't even use the Pilot style clip so it wouldn't even quality as a "clone".
As @Fountain Pen Collection has said, not every resin pen with the classic cigar shape is a Montblanc "fake" and plenty of fountain pen designs have been inspired by preceding pens. There are only so many ways to design a fountain pen without being excessively ostentatious or pretentious. The classic designs are tried and true, which is why they are so popular. The widespread use of lever fillers and their variants, which are still used by established brands today, aren't all mere "copies" of the first lever filling fountain pen.
My previous point still stands, that the Wing Sung 699 is clearly directed at a very different demographic to the Pilot 823, that Pilot does not take any direct losses, and that both companies may even benefit. If there really were already plenty of "quality affordable pens out there" that satisfied users' needs, then the Wing Sung 699 certainly would not have sold nearly as well as it did/does.
Lamy box, TWSBI instruction, Pilot pen... I don't even know what to say, this is hilarious.
Caonabo Cruz 😂😂😂
Only take from those you admire. :)
Most hilarious comment 😀
Dr. Brown: Thank you very much for returning to the 'original music' at the beginning of your reviews.
I don't think there's a problem here because the wing sung copy does not affect the original pen's sales in any way. No person that was ready to spend £600 on a Pilot suddenly decided a wing sung will do and spent the rest on lolipops.
However i do believe the cheap copies affected lamy, kaweco and other affordable pens sales because in those cases the customer pool was the same.
And yet at the same time i think replicas can be a good thing as companies are forced to innovate to keep ahead.
My 823 with an FA Nib is in my top three pens. It is smooth comfortable and dependable. It writes every time after being ignored for long periods, it keeps up with writing Pages and pages. It’s classic, beautiful and everything I want it to be. I am thankful I could afford to purchase it. Thank you for the thoughtful review. Nothing like the real thing baby.
US distributors don't seem to stock 823 with any interesting nibs.
I think the question here is how do Pilot justify their prices?
Gold nib, and quality control
You can buy a gold-nibbed Wing Sung 698 for about $60, but I ordered some stainless Extra Fine Wing Sung replacement nibs to try on a cheap Pilot and the first one I tried wrote thicker and wetter than a Pilot Medium.
Good on Wing Sung for bringing a neat filling mechanism into a price range that isn't prohibitive to most members of the working class (Yes I'm aware of the Twsbi Vac700, that's still rather expensive). Sure, they could have done a different design if the 823 patent hasn't yet expired, but I'm pretty sure that Pilot's gonna cry all the way to the bank either way. The 823 isn't going anywhere, and there's still a large audience of people who will buy as opposed to the 699.
The 699 comes with a gold nib now. $99
Hi Stephen, many (new) products do not have a copyright or patent. You'll only get a patent it your design is very innovative and never done before. Also it is important to consider that Wing Sung is not trying to sell these pens as if they were Pilot and they are not trying to confuse their customers. They proudly call them Wing Sung. They may be much alike, in a similar manner as you see with awfully many other products from shoe lace to bicycles to hamburgers.
Exactly. That's why you can't patent a beef hamburger but you can patent a frankenburger made for the vegan Market by food technologists.
I have this pen. I couldn’t afford the Pilot, but if I could scrimp and save for one, it would never leave home. This pen I don’t worry about. Its nice looking. It works. Mine is the brown translucent with gold trim. Very pretty :) I do understand the knock-off argument, and maybe they should change it a little, but it is branded... 🤷🏼♀️
My 699 barrel broke near the turning knob and leaked Edelstein Star Ruby all over the place. Today I look at my 823 with a new and deep appreciation.
You get what you pay. The only exception i find is TWSBI.
@@MotlTheChasid My four have served me well for about a year with no issues.
@@martinlebl631 : My 699 have also served me well, and I also have had
no issues. The med nib did not require any smoothing or tweaking.
I had the same problem with my Lamy Vista eydropper conversion. Which is the same price. This isn't replacement of Pilot 823, this is Pilot Metro, Lamy Safari, Waterman Graduate rival, and does it really well. Heck, I have 2 Waterman Graduates and they are both terrible.
mine arrived today - I'm very pleased with it. It's quite large and reassuringly heavy. Looks, feels and writes like a much, much more expensive pen.
I love these. I have four in four colors they offered. They all work fine, and I couldn't be happier. Maybe one day will get the 823 as well.
My 699 is currently one of my favorite pens. I don't care at all that it is an imitation. You taken a look around at all the CR-V lookalikes on the roads today? My yellow #2 pencils all look the same, too. And pink erasers! How dare they!
Part of the "writing experience" is not being afraid to lose the damned thing. I have a 699. I love it for drawing. I like to draw in reverse as well, for the thinner line. Not sure I'd do that with the 823. I certainly wouldn't take the 823 out for drawing on location. If my writing consisted of, well, writing, at a desk, that was a whole lot neater than any surface in my house, maybe. That said I also have two Pilot Falcons for drawing. Why? B/c of the unusual nibs. I don't usually take them anywhere though.
Only thing I didnt like about mine is that it did NOT like being dropped. About two feet onto a somewhat hard surface and the barrel was COVERED in spider cracks. Weirdly, didnt leak though for the rest of the day.
Other than that, it's stellar. I ordered another and have just made sure not to drop it.
I also have an 823 with an ebonite feed and FA nib.
Honestly, other than the fancy flex nib I got (which is a special order) I wouldn't say the 823 is $300 higher quality.
Does the section of an 823 fit on the barrel of this pen?
The copying of pens is certainly a difficult issue. For me though I simply cannot afford the more expensive pens and so therefore I would never be in the market for one. By purchasing this cheaper version I am not lost as a customer to the more pricey brand so in effect the cheaper copy is not "stealing" a customer from the premium brand. This does not solve the moral dilemma of copyright or simply copying the pen if the patent is now redundant but for me and my limited budget it does simplify the matter.
Someone can tell me which is the difference, in terms of reliability, between a converter and the 699 filling system ?
Intellectual Property (IP) is, unfortunately, a broad classification of many fundamentally different types of property, and it's important to understand the differences; all too often, these different properties get lumped together, and treated like a monolithic block, which couldn't be further from the truth.
First off, the easiest to understand are utility patents (which is usually what we mean when we say "patent"). A utility patent protects a particular functional element or process of an invention. Utility patents get at the heart of what/why/how something works. With respect to a Pilot 823, things like the nib/feed assembly, the filling mechanism, or the cap attachment mechanisms might be protected under utility patents. Most jurisdictions that issue utility patents do so to encourage inventors to publish their inventions (a public good) in exchange for a limited period of exclusivity.
A similar, but not identical, type of intellectual property is an industrial design right (known as a design patent in the United States). These protect ornamental industrial design elements of a product, like shape or color. The most iconic US design patent ever issued is probably to Coca-Cola for their bottle's shape. Design patents are a key part of the infamous Apple v. Samsung series of lawsuits. In the case of the Pilot 823, the general design of the pen could be covered under a design patent (or similar industrial design right). In Japan, design rights are protected for 20 years (15 years in the US, 25 years in the UK). Industrial design rights, in many ways, are a form of copyright for manufactured goods, though with a much lower lifespan. Like copyright, their primary purpose is to protect the creator and provide them a period of exclusivity to the work.
Speaking of copyright, it is a type of IP that protects creative works. Crucially, copyright is about protecting the creative expression of an idea, but not the idea itself. To make that more concrete, in a written work, copyright doesn't protect the story (idea) that "a girl, goes to a place, and does a thing", but protects the words that tell about "a particular girl, going to a particular place, doing a particular thing". This is how you get dozens of movies/books/games/etc with the same general plots, similar character archetypes, or just the same annoying tropes, and none of that is necessarily infringing on a creator's copyright protection. In some cases, some design elements may be so creative, that you could argue these are protected under copyright law, not just industrial design rights. However, the design of a pen is unlikely to reach this standard.
The last major classification of IP to discuss here is trademark rights. Trademark rights are primarily a way of protecting the public from counterfeit goods or services, though they can also be used offensively by companies against competitors. Fundamentally, a trademark serves to uniquely identify the source of a good or service. In this way, a member of the public can buy a product using a trademark, and be confident of that product's origin. Trademarks primarily protect names, slogans, designs, logos, etc. Some design elements, like Jeep's iconic grill, are protected by trademarks. Trademark protection lasts indefinitely, as long as a company is using it identify their work. Company's have a responsibility to defend their trademarks, otherwise they will cease to become generic. Two famous examples of this are Hoover (in the UK) and Asprin (in most of the world). Doing a quick search on the USPTO database, it appears that "Pilot" is a trademark in the US, but "Pilot 823" is not, and I can find no trademarks related to the pen's design. That's not to say that Pilot failed to register a design patent somewhere, just no specifically in the US.
Even with all these types of intellectual property, it's unlikely that Wing Sung is actually violating any legally protected IP of Pilot. However (and I this is where the controversy lies), is Wing Sung violating a *moral* rights that Pilot has? This is a tricky subject, because few countries codify moral rights, and those that do usually extend them as part of existing IP rights. In other words, even though Pilot doesn't have a legal IP right to the design of the pen, could they possibly have a supra-legal moral right? And is it the violation of this moral right that creates our internal unease about Wing Sung wholesale copying Pilot's pen? In other words, even though we'd be ok with any company copying some aspect of the pen, we have heartburn over a company copying *all* aspects of the pen?
In my opinion, these ideas around "moral rights" get at the heart of the debate between "copy" and "counterfeit". Obviously, if Wing Sung were to blatantly stamp their pen with "Pilot 823", they'd be counterfeiting. But in this case, these pens are clearly marked "Wing Sung 699". So is it still a counterfeit? Some people say yes. But some people say, no, it's not. Clearly, the 699 is at least inspired by the 823. They share similar elements in nearly all aspects of the pen. In some small details (cap ring, clip) they are different, but in nearly all substantive ways, you'd expect to confuse these two pens at a glance if they were sitting next to each other.
After all that wall of text, I feel like Wing Sung probably is skirting a line here. I don't think they're quite stepping over it, but they are right on it. Part of why I bought my 699 is because it offered me access to a 823-style vacuum filler under $20. Do I feel slightly guilty about it? Perhaps... But less guilty than my wallet would have felt if I had actually bought an 823.
I have recently been given a Hero 1501, it appears to have the Mont Blanc logo on the cap, have you heard of this pen or the pen it resembles please?🤔
Yeeedideee! (Arms waving)
I have two Wing Sung 699s and one of them came apart from the end screw at the third filling. I guess the durability could be a reason for the price, or I do not know :)
I own some Chinese pens - Jinhao and Hero - and, although they are reliable writers, they will not last as long as their more expensive cousins. For example, I love the way my Jinhao X450s feel in the hand, but I've had trouble with the cap liners, and the faux-gold plating is not very durable.
Hi thank you for showing us this Wing Sung, I love the Waterman Blue it looks amazingly satisfying sloshing around in the barrel. :)
I keep going back to my wing sung. It just works. It also writes a fine line with almost 0 bleedthrough on normal paper for everyday use.
How often does the ink dry out?
Loved the review!! I too struggle (at least a bit) with the whole copy issue. And yet I own 4 of these, clear, blue, brown and smoke. But here's a question for the Pilot, Platinum, Sailor's.... Can it not be argued that some pens from these manufacturers aren't copying Mont Blanc, at least to some degree?
Yes
Yes .
They are great. Use them every day. Also have one of each color.
A lot of those companies are overpriced for what you get in my experience.
Yes, they are copies of the Montblanc. That's why I don't care about buying a Pilot 823 either.
Bigger question is can Pilot produce non gold nib variant at $50 or Lamy make safari at $10
Get the translucent section version. Both the opaque section versions I bought developed fine cracks which leaked ink and were not-fixable. This is a known issue.
My translucent section one has not done this and the section is made of obviously better quality material.
can you disassemble this pen? I don't see a place for a wrench on the end cap.
I have a 699 that I disassemble regularly for cleaning (no tools required). The section unscrews easily, and the piston mechanism can be unscrewed from the back of the barrel with a rubber gripper (grabbing the thin metal ring). I use silicone grease on all threads when re-assembling.
I recommend penbbs 456. Also a vacuum filler but got much more original design.
If you want a superb quality pen buy a Pilot
If you want a cheap copy buy this pen
The markets are not in competition
While it is true that Japan has design patents, many countries (including the USA) do not. Trade dress cases involve deception (a kind of “passing off” one’s product or confusing the customer as to source). To be patentable, the product must be novel and innovative. This filling system belongs to the world apparently, as it looks like every other vac filler. In brief, it could violate intellectual property laws; however, it may well not violate any laws in China, since China need not give any country greater protection than they give their own products. Patent law is likely irrelevant. As to trade dress (an interpretation of the Lanham Act with protects trade marks, including unique design, I don’t think anyone is deceived as to source. Flattery of copying another pen seems to prevail in the industry both then and now!
Pilot, Sailor, etc. have taken the trade dress of Monthblanc, Schaeffer, etc. since their founding, so they wouldn't want to open that can if worms in court.
Martin Lebl, Well, the most famous cases have involved equally silly variations. In the 9th Circuit (Federal Court for the 9th Circuit) Fudruckers sued Flaky Jakes just alleging that the usage of a restaurant layout where the meat was visible through glass-doomed refrigerators, walking in and selecting your toppings, etc. was confusingly similar as to source (who owned and operated the chain). The founders of Fudruckers (after selling the chain I think) invested in a Mexican Restaurant chain in the greater Houston area (Taco Cabana), for which they copied the look and layout of Two Pesos, with 2 restaurants iin the San Antonio area. They apparently misunderstood the Lanham Act and thought that the “look and layout issues” needed to have acquired widespread secondary meaning. They learned the key element (about which you are correct) for Two Pesos is whether their restaurants were inherently distinctive (unique colors in the design, the use of garage-like door that could be opened to additional space, etc.). In the USA, the question is whether the the design of the Pilot Custom 823 was a distinctively different (inherently different) design. Your comment is also “spot on” in recognizing that Lanham Act’s inherent design as a substitute for a trademark is seldom, if ever, applied to smaller consumer goods, items like watches, dresses, and fountain pens. (But, as an old, retired professor, I have probably written far more than I actually know! No one pays me to do research any longer. :)
@@keithwhitney7491 Well I don't mind. One of my favorite subjects, even if that is not what I am practicing right now. Biggest trouble is you never know how the case is going to come out, and often not worth litigating as a small change can bring product into compliance. Also how do you show damages in any case, as people buying $20 items are not in market for $300 items. Would they have bought the $300 item, but for the $20 item availability, and as we see here majority wouldn't. Also is there confusion? Probably not, as no one in the market for fountain pen would mistake the Pilot Custom 823 for the Wing Sung 699. Much less the people that seek out the 699 on the various internet sites know it isn't 823, which us why they are looking for it. Unless there was some confusing advertising, but the people selling the 699 into the Western markets are such small fry that they do not have advertising campaigns. And then you can't go after the manufacturer in China, because it is in China, and does not actively sell pens in US, as the market is simply too small, and it is just individual resellers doing so. Squash one, and another one will take their place, if you can squash them in first place, which you probably can't. Customs could seize such items, but they aren't going to be going after packages containing a pen or two. You need container sized loads to get those guys moving. Trade dress is such amorphous thing though, and really in the eye of the beholder. Apple claims trade dress for the wood and glass look of the apple store, but it is very reminiscent of the Scandinavian interior design schools of the 70s and 80s, so I don't think that it would go well in court. The amber and smoke 699 come closest to perhaps infringing, but the colors that the 823 isn't available in are likely out of scope entirely. In the Apple v. Samsung most of the trade dress Apple claimed was ruled not to be unique to the Apple trade dress, like rectangular phone with screen on the front and rounded corners, and the few specific ones that Apple prevailed on were quickly changed to bring their rectangular rounded corner phones with screen on the front into compliance. Both sides probably spend more litigating than what Apple claimed, and by the time it was done, the market was full of lookalike phones, and Apple was content having "won" and didn't pursue anyone else. Tiffany's recently litigated with Costco, because Costco advertised and sold diamonds in Tiffany's style setting, but the court found that no one would be confused into thinking they were buying Tiffany's at a Costco. Tiffany's might yet appeal, but I doubt it will go any better at a higher instance. Mahindra was selling Jeep looking off road vehicle, which wasn't street legal, and mostly competed with other ATV vehicles. Jeep sued them on trade dress grounds, and won, but Mahindra made few small tweaks to the hood and fenders, and was in compliance, so it could keep on importing their ATV. Not sure Jeep gained much besides derision of their target audience, as people that bought the Jeep looking ATV often gave a Jeep as a car, and Jeep does not manufacture an ATV at all, so there was really no competition or damage really as people that bought the Mahindra ATV would have otherwise bought one from CanAm, or someone other than Jeep, as Jeep couldn't sell them one as it does not make ATVs. Silly part is that Mahindra had license from Willys from after WWII, but Jeep was just objecting to the US marketing of such machine after not caring about the availability in India for nearly 70 years. The licensing agreement wasn't really geography limited, but I think Jeep's predecessors assumed it was for India, as export of Indian cars to US market woukd have been preposterous and uneconomical at that time, so Mahindra would likely have prevailed on appeal, but altering some sheet metal was cheaper than continued litigation. And customers can easily make it look like Jeep should they so desire, and many will. I don't think Jeep gained anything here, as the Mahindra is still on the market, might start selling street legal version that will be now in compliance, so after spending plenty of money they helped establish a future competitor non infringing trade dress, gave it plenty of free publicity, and lost a lot of goodwill among consumers they market their cars to. I do not see one upside to that. Pilot isn't pursuing Wing Sung here as this is like hunting mosquitos with a sledgehammer, and depending on your judge you might not get the mosquito, but your foot, as with trade dress cases it is very hard to be sure of the outcome of litigation, unlike in patent or trademark infringement cases.
Martin Lebl , Well, I think both of us come down on the same side here. The truth is until we started creating more and more property rights, our system was based on the free entry into the market of those who competed, thus driving prices down to a longer-run fair price. The. U.S. S. Ct. (Or, now SCOTUS) has drawn the line at using a lot of these more recently “created” tools like trade dress to something truly unique. While someone may call their “Power Filler” (Visconti) system unique, it really isn’t. Not even the original fountain pen itself (whichever brand that was) excluded others from producing fountain pens. If one wants to go through the process of actually developing a trademark (Montblanc) and change 3 or 4 times the worth of the products (from fountain pens to notebooks and more), they can go after the makers of fake goods. [the only fake good I have ever purchased was likely either an Indian or Chinese made knockoff of the Montblanc Defoe writer’s edition fountain pen (used; seemed a more India-based filler knockoff; horrible pen). I may go after the seller by more means than just an EBAY complaint; however, the cost of a fountain pen does not allow one to do much.] I too choose “free market” over design patents and trade dress for the ordinary use item. Now, when someone creates a garish (gaudy) fountain pen as a piece of art (the ultimate fountain pen for GAME OF THRONES, which should for over $4000, I might argue it was so uniquely ugly (one man’s art is someone’s gaudy; hence, a word derived from an artist) that it should have protection from knockoffs. It was so huge and metallic, it was never intended as anything other than a piece of art. A 699 versus a Pilot 823, no big deal. Thanks for your input and corrections.
If I ever teach a business law class again (increasingly doubtful), I should only hope you would permit to use some of your examples! None of those illustrations have made into a book that I have used, and my own research paper (now 20 years ago) centered on the cases I noted. Intellectual property laws and the capital markets create most of the obscene wealth in America, but (since it is one of the few areas that produces positive international trade flows) we probably feel Ike we cannot afford to make more rational. Again, thank you! KW
IF, as you remind us, the patent has expired, then on some level (as a buyer) I applaud Wing Sung for at least putting out the same filling mechanism at a much more approachable price. The PenBBS 355, for example, mimics the CONID Bulkfiller -- for a MUCH smaller price. I picked one up (the PenBBS) to see if I liked the filling system and decided it was much more 'fiddly' than I care for so I took the CONID off my list. I think an argument can probably be made for materials, durability etc between the originals and the knock-offs but the latter are good ways to try it out. BTW, my 823 is among my most favorite pens.
Well, the way I look at it is that I would prefer to get the Wing Sung 699 to see if I like to write with that style of pen before buying an 823: It is long and girthy, and I don't know if I'd enjoy the filling mechanism. Plus, since the 699 looks easier to maintain, perhaps I could switch the nibs between that and the 823, if the nib fits.
In Europe the 823 costs around ~€300. I got the Wing Sung 699 for €17 including shipping. I cannot afford the 823, but I can the 699.
Alas, the nib is very boring. Decent but boring. Wing Sung is the only Chinese pen company the makes decent nibs that write out of the box. (The medium nib is better).
Regarding copyright etc, the two pens/companies don't have the same target group of customers, so IMO no harm done. Yeah, I'll get a real 823 when I can, for the quality of the nib.
Thanks for sharing.
Good Chinese nibs are ten a penny. Jinhao #6s write beautifully. The generic Lamy style nibs available for a pittance write beautifully. PenBBS nibs write beautifully. Even modern Hero nibs write beautifully.
@@modusodus Jinhao #6 nibs are inconsistent, I've seen marvels, monsters and everything between, so I've replaced them all with Bock and JoWo nibs. I didn't go crazy for PENBBS nibs either, I find them rather indifferent ... Haven't tried Hero and probably I won't in the future - I've gotten a little tired with Chinese pens (I have more than 30).
No harm done? One company doing all development, and the other just making the product (R&D cost free) and taking money (even small)? Couldn't agree less.
@@r.g.stavros5711 Vacuum filling technology is known since the '30s. There are very very few innovative products in our time. Almost everything has been discovered or invented. So No real R&D here. Both are plastic pens.
The difference lies on the cost of the nib. (Although I'm not sure if the Chinese made golden nibs if the cost would be as high as that of the Japanese ones). Pricing is an other thing. Marketing and other one too.
Copyright doesn't apply to consumer goods, as that is for writing and other such creative creations, patents do expire after limited time, and trademark/trade dress is Montblanc's, so Pilot can hardly complain there.
Fountain pen is of course nice. And I agree on ur point on copyright. If the patent has expired whats the issue then, to use the design and make the design popular
Pilot pen, Sailor nib scrollwork and LAMY box design; they really shopped around for this one!
Rick de Maaijer twsbi style instructions
No way would I argue with a Professor. Understand the comment that it is a copy. But it’ll hardly take sales away from Pilot. It allows me to use a well designed pen for which I could never in a month of Sunday’s afford the original. And pop in a Penbbs nib (hope it fits) and I’ll have a lovely writer. Same as the Moonman 800 v Momento Zero. The Moonman will not make the slightest dent in Zero sales but I have a lovely pen with a Bock nib that again I couldn’t afford the original. I do enjoy your videos. You and Doug and Chris inspire me.
I have a Wing Sung 601 flighter with a 14K gold nib and a solid steel section. That variant has quite a bit of markup, most of which is for the gold nib, and costs about as much as TWSBI Diamond 580. The pen is really nice, it has such a perfect balance, the section feels great, and the nib/feed has some give to it. However, the stock 14K nib is horrifying scratchy. It wasn't misaligned, just extremely toothy. I put in the spare F nib that came with my Jinhao 911 (the EF nib on that thing is somehow simultaneously leagues smoother than my Lamy Safaris with F nibs and has more feedback in a pleasant way) and it now writes very smoothly. Since paying 3X the price for a gold nib did not give me a smooth nib, I guess Wing Sung (Green Stationery) just does not make consistent smooth nibs, even for their expensive options, unlike Hero or Jinhao (the Hero 100 is both mocked and praised on Chinese forums for having a glassy smooth nib). Shanghai Green Stationery, who makes the Wing Sung 600 series has the annoying penchant for unnecessarily copying other brands' designs down to the most minute detail. It's one thing when one bases their design on another design for which the patent has expired (especially if one optimizes the design), it's an entirely different thing when one copies every single detail.
The one with gold nib costs about $50 if you can buy from Chinese market... I got mine with M gold nib, and it writes well. However, at proper timing, I will surely a pilot 823 for the original design and all the effort of this pen.
Look and writing experience are two different aspects of pen design. What would be really interesting with these clone pens is a direct comparison of the writing experience. On looks alone this pen is a bargain but I’d be curious as to how far up the cost ladder of the Pilot the writing experience is. If it even writes half as good then it’s clearly excellent value for money at least. But who wouldn’t prefer the better original if they can afford it.
Nice review! I love my 699, reliable writer, excellent ergonomics for my hand, great everyday writer! Copycat? I don't care,- but that's just me ;-)
I mean every Japanese brands flagship mimics Montblanc and no one cares either. For some even the logo...substitute Mt. Fuji for Mt. Blanc.
Nice jazz scatting! You are such a hip cat! Truly a man for all music.
No one has a problem with the manufacture and purchase of generic drugs, same issue. The difference is in OUR classifying pens as Art instead of a commodity. Look at it this way, some competition may help to drive down Pilot’s pricing and kick out some of the profit built into the price. You could argue that the high(🤷♀️I dunno) profit embedded in the Pilot product fuels their innovation and development of future pens, not their bottom line, which is the same argument drug manufacturers use. However with drugs a Government entity (FDA in the States) regulates the chemical properties and its effectiveness, there’s no such Governing body with pens. So there may be significant differences in the materials used by both pen companies, a point others here are making in their “use for a lifetime vs. use for 10 years” argument. Folks, there pretty much has to be with such a huge pricing differential. If/when Pilot seriously views this knock-off as competition for their product(s) you’ll see ads highlighting the quality of their materials, care in the production process, the added value of a manufacturer guarantee and the panache of carrying a name brand. Until then, they aren’t taking this pen as a threat to their market share.
I have one of these pens as my goto work pen for a year or so. My works pens are used extensively, as I have to write 4-10 pages by hand daily. Sometimes more. Just the other day the cap broke when I twisted it back on the pen. I'm really upset about it, even though it was a cheap pen. It's an amazing pen for the price.
Lets call it a PILOT Homage pen 😁😁
Great review.
Oh, the ongoing debate on Chinese copies. The Chinese manufacturers won't stop, simply because they seem to have a different sense of honor than much of the world along these lines, and the debate won't end either. I'm wondering, though, if they get around the patent issues (besides not caring about them in the first place) by slightly altering a measurement or build design in some areas. For instance, the grip section on the 699 is slightly longer than the 823. Another is the body-to-grip seal. The 823 has the seal past the threads just before the grip starts, whereas the 699 places the seal before the threads. The interior of the 823 body is flush with the threads, as the end of the body is where contact is made with the seal. On the 699 the interior of the body thickens past the threads down toward the finial. That edge where it thickens is where the 699 makes contact with it's seal. For most people these issues are barely to not even noticeable, but they, and perhaps a few others are there. You made a good point regarding the cost, which I have had to deal with in my review of this pens, along with the comparison review with the 823. When you're talking about that big of a price difference, it is good to have an inexpensive alternative. We want to encourage people to join the fountain pen world, but not everybody can afford to spend $250 to $288 on a pen, or they simply can't, in their mind, justify spending that much money on one. Should we guilt them into not buying the Chinese knock-off? I wouldn't, at least in this case. On the other hand, when it comes to the Safari knock-off the price difference isn't near as much, so I would encourage people to save a bit more and get the real deal. Personally, I don't think the major manufacturers are too concerned about these knock-offs. What Pilot, Lamy, Mont Blanc, and the like have going for them is greater quality control and warranty that stands behind their products. I love my 823, but I also really appreciate my 699. I bought the clear 699 because the clear 823 is a little harder to come by, and it costs even more, around $325. Good review, and thank you for your perspective.
In the United States, patents cover function (not esthetics)... any functional patent on a vacuum filling system (if it every existed) is long expired. It is possible (in the United States) to trademark esthetics (although these trademarks are VERY difficult to enforce - fonts are a great example; the courts decided decades ago that the only thing that can be trademarked about a font is the name, not the shape of the characters). As another commenter wrote - there is nothing to be patented or trademarked here... debate over!
@@danielklopp7007 Excellent points, Daniel. I personally am not too troubled by the copies. Everyone knows they're copies, and the name brand will always get their proper respect.
Yes!! I was wondering when you were going to get round to the 699!
I won't be buying one of these, because I already own an 823 (with the FA nib). Before I had the opportunity to get the 823, I bought a PenBBS 456. My own concerns with the Chinese copies/knockoffs/plagiarisms is that they feel like 10 year pens to me, whereas the Pilot gives a sense of quality that will outlive me. I expect that a grandchild will be able to use the 823, not so any of the Chinese pens I own. (One of my prize possessions is my own grandfather's Wahl Eversharp Doric II, which still works.)
Fair point to make, and a fair expectation for a pen priced in vicinity of $300. I'll take a dollar or two a year, or 50 cents, for ten years, no problem.
The problem is Pilot Custom 823 didn't invent that filling mechanism (Onoto did) and like many pens they are an evolution of other things...so it gets really murky when pen manufacturers scream about being copied when they copy themselves - like Kaweco having a go at Moonman/Mahjohn and Delike for Sport copies, when the Sport is well out of copyright....
I have some Chinese beautiful pens that I love: Duke, Hero, Wing Sung. The Duke Confucius is a fancy. Some have the bent nib which is a fun to write with it. I also can afford to pay one or two over priced italian Montegrappa or Visconti (the Homo Sapiens is worth the money). The Belgian CONIDS are another history: I couldn’t buy one even if I could afford one. CONID are seemingly out of this world so you have to wait after the zombie Apocalipsis to be appointed in a waiting list.
I believe Penbbs has had a Bulkfiller tribute pen. It's worth seeking down.
@@QuickQuips It'd worth indeed. Thanx!
@@marioferu290365 355. It's around 35 USD
About the copy aspect - It demonstrates Wing Sung's manufacturing prowess (which is considerable), but not their engineering or creativity. The Wing Sung 601 is an IMPROVEMENT on the Parker 51. It has an ink window, a user-serviceable vacuum system which is executed with fewer parts and greater reliability. The 51 is no longer made, and so ... why not get and use a WS601 and be impressed with their ability to enhance a classic. The 699 doesn't seem to do anything other than copy the Pilot. That said, I own a 699 (and use it regularly), so perhaps I am part of the problem here.
The removable section is a huge improvement. It's the only "knockoff" I own, and decided to give it a go not only because it's affordable, but because the 823 nibs don't seem always to be especially glorious. I'll work on steel nibs all day, but if I shell out that much coin I don't want also to have to send it to a nibmeister.
Brilliant analysis of the pen and the copyright issues. Thank you, once again. Philip Duffy
How often do you respond to comments, Mr Brown?
I have three Pilot Custom 823, two with fine nib, and one with medium nib. I just bough the Wing Sung 699 and it's almost identical. However nothing compares the real thing. The Pilot writes better. However, I use the Wing Sung for carrying everywhere, without any fear of lost an expensive pen :-D
The nib is a bit thinner than the 823's, not enough to make the writing experience massively different, but enough that you can't swap the nibs. (Found that out because tragically I shattered the section on my Pilot pen, and tried to put the FA nib in the Wing Sung clone. The Pilot feed + nib was too tight, and the Wing Sung feed + Pilot nib is leaky. Just in case anyone was thinking of such a Frankenstein experiment.) Still, the Wing Sung is a nice pen - thanks for this review.
Copying pen from every details in a cheap price is really awesome. Not everyone has the ability to buy a $600 plastic pen just for the brand value
I’d admired the Pilot 823 for a while. Then I discovered the Wing Sung 699, which I purchased with a medium nib: not scratchy. The Vacuum filling system fascinated me. The pen would write and write and write. But after every letter, punctuation mark, flourish, or doodle, there lurked the guilt of owning a copy. This feeling, plus my lust for precious gold drove me to go for the real thing - so I now also have the Pilot 823 in my pen rotation. I must say that the quality of the Pilot is superior to the Wing Sung and it is a deal smoother. But I keep both pens inked. By the way, the easiest way to get a full load of ink is by using the Pineider Pen Filler ink well. Place ink in inkwell, insert pen, invert the ink well, then depress plunger. I plan on shooting a brief video on my technique. Good review and a fair assessment of the ethics regarding copies. Well done.
Well Professor Brown, My Pilot 823 with a broad 14k nib is one of my GOAT pens, and writes like a dream! So, there it is. 😁
Appelboom(europe) has it for 300. I think it was a mistake saying 600
for around 85 us$ its availabre with a 14k gold nib in F or M.
Anthony of ukfountainpens seems to rate this pen
I do love my Wing sung 601 but if I'm going to get a chinese vacuum filler I think I'd go with the penBBS 456
I have purchased on Aliexpress a 2$ piston filler demonstrator pen which has all the characteristics of this one, except it is not a copy of the Pilot 823, and which writes great. That would make me think 2$ is the true price for such a pen, the remaining 18$ are for the Pilot-like design which really doesn't worth it.
In my experience, cheap pens don't last. I'm retired and can't afford an expensive pen. Rather than buy a cheap copy of an expensive pen, I tend to look for the middle ground. My best writing pen is a Xezo Architect which was a stretch but worth it. Most of my pens are in the middle ground -- I love my Looms, my TWSBIs and my Conklins. There are so many choices out there. I guess it's something everyone needs to sort through for themselves.
Conklin is just a cheap Chinese pen with a branding mark up. You can get a pen with Chinese brand from the same factory for third of the price.
@@martinlebl631 Conklin pens are currently being manufactured in Italy.
finally back to basic Stephen ,with all you other topics sometimes ( often i miss the early channel..) great review not a lot of people are doing it as well as you do....anyway to respond and add to the argument , it seems that at one point or the other , all pen companies have taken inspiration or even copy each other designs and more than often while improving the design or the price sort of speak... i love your reviews on expensive pens that i will never be able to afford ( except for the homosapien that i had to buy after your review of course second hand but still over my budget ..lol)so i am grateful for the Chinese pen companies for producing affordable and more often that not, very interesting pens....
@Michael Michael It looks like he still does all the pen reviews he can, I think some of his regular sources aren’t shipping the big, expensive pens internationally during the pandemic, and some he’s waiting on are taking a long time to get to him for the same reason. Dr. Brown has talked about 1-2 month shipping delays happening to him right now, which really sucks. All the non-pen related videos are in addition to the pen reviews, NEVER in place of them. 🙂 Personally, I love the non-pen videos. This UA-cam channel shows strength and depth in being willing to discuss other stuff, and they are in his own areas of interest so he enjoys doing them too. We do want him to have fun so he keeps on doing videos of all types!
I have one of those in the smoke color. I love it. It wrote very smooth out of the box. 👍🏻✒
I was gob smacked when I first pulled this pen out of the Lamy knock off box. Having ogled many Pilot 823s, this medium nib is so close to the Pilot it’s amazing it’s even allowed to exist. If you have a Pilot 823 but don’t want to take it to work, just grab a W/S 699.
This is a kind of tribute to the Pilot pen, which by the way if you understand how patents work there's no way that that thing is under patent in any kind of appearance or design point of view. If anything this probably draws more attention to the Pilot which is of a vastly higher construction and materials quality by any measure. It has a flexible gold nib which is fairly legendary and I'm sure is not present on the cheap Chinese knockoff. Also a used Pilot has extremely high resale value whereas a used knockoff probably not worth the postage. I can see a lot of people trying out the knockoff but then someday aspiring to own a real one.
This may help with the ethical dilemma-what if the two pens were closer in price? How would we feel then about an exact copy of the appearance, but not the quality? I would be upset because I might buy a cheap imitation for all that money. However, this is a mere fraction of the cost and a buyer knows (presumably) that the quality is comparable to the price. The two companies are serving two different markets. It might sound like I’m supporting Wing Sung but that’s not the case. They still took unfair advantage of all the design-work that Pilot invested in their product.
However, from a social perspective, the poor working man can afford a pen that looks nice, and works fairly well.
And so the see-saw teeter-totters on!
There IS a 14k gold nib variant of this pen for $100 US. I'm just not brave enough to risk throwing a 100 bucks down the drain (although I am curious to see how they stands up to the Custom 823). You can still find some on E-Bay. As for the ethics of the subject, I AM a fountain pen enthusiast but DO need to keep in check how I spend my money. As part of the writing experience, I also find it to be a LOT of fun swapping nibs, trying different inks, and tuning the pens. These copycat pens usually allow me to do just that. Worst case is that I'm out $20 or $30 if I muck it up. Doing some serious damage to a Viscontti or a Mont Blanc, I believe would put a damper on anyone's week!!!
Oh yeah, Moonman has many copy-ish pens too. Did you see the new one that looks like a Montblanc heritage?!
The Wing Sung 699 is a Pilot Custom 823 knockoff which comes in a knockoff Lamy Safari box? 😅👌
Excelente review. El tema de las copias es MUY complicado. Yo pienso que al final es un tema de principios y de etica el que define al momento de tomar la decisión. PERO se hace evidente lo mucho que ganan las empresas DE MARCA en la venta de sus productos. ¿Es un abuso? Yo pienso que SI. Ahora, lo que tampoco entiendo es porque los Chinos no le cambian dos o tres cosas a sus productos y crean sus propios diseños e imagen de marca (algo como lo que ya han hecho algunos como MOONMAN o PENBBS (Estos últimos han creado uno de los CLIPS o IMPERDIBLES mas bonitos que yo conozco). ¿Que puede hacer una persona que quiere comprar una pluma estilografica y que se gana un salario mínimo? Una original NUNCA la podría tener..... es eso justo?
Excelent point, @Luís Guillermo Pérez Mejía. Big brands overpriced its products, as they sell them as concepts, not goods. I think the reason for the copycat practice is the popularity of the model that was cloned (just for note, WS 699 is not a clone of Pilot 823). When the Chinese brands become known enough, like Moonman and Pen BBS, they see no more need to copy other brands.
@@666Horus totalmente de acuerdo. Cordial saludo desde Medellín Colombia.
Good job Wing Sung (if the pilot patent has expired) for affordability....might as well put a gold nib in there.
Why are nearly all of the Chinese fountain pens fine or extra fine ? Do people really prefer to write with these fine nibs ? Even in this demo the pen seems scratchy and unpleasant . Nearly all pens used to be medium and nice to write with .
My 10 cents worth ...
I wrote earlier today on Reddit about how much I appreciate these cheaper fountain pens from China.
Why??
Well I have purchased quite a few in the past 7 years and for the most part I have deconstructed them and in a desire to get them writing better I learned to, reground the nibs, adjust the feeds, repair, modify and more. I do very much appreciate the originals, but I personally see no issue with a fountain pen from China proudly paying homage to a pen that has a great design. I have serious issues with companies from China that produce knockoffs. I have a very nice Baoer 79 that , once reworked, has become a great daily carry and I do not fear losing it as I would with my Montblanc Starwalker. Does it write as well as the actual item that inspired it? No, but I would not use a Montblanc to add comments to the cheap copy paper reports that come out of the laser printer, or scribble a telephone number to a Post-it. So long as there is no legal disregard for intellectual property and the manufacturer proudly displays their name on the pen all is well in my world. As well I feel the fountain pens from China are only getting better because they have learned to step up their quality and technique by producing these tribute pens. Many times I have seen improvements in just a few years in a pen line from China. We all start the process of creation by being inspired to create from those who proceeded us and as a musician and jeweler I feel there is no better way to learn than through hands on discovery.
Thank you for the fine review and I am off to acquire one, I am very curious if their vacuum filler mechanisms in this 699 are the reasons for the design changes in the Wing Sung 698 (Twsbi Eco inspired) or perhaps the 3008 which has some slight improvements over their 601 ... evolution and inspiration.
Again Thank You
My view on the copy-cat question has evolved a bit. [1] Yup, its a copy, a dup, some might say a counterfeit. However, if it allows someone to own a functional facsimile of a much more expensive pen then it has an egalitarian aspect that I have to think is a good thing. On the whole, it spreads the hobby. On the individual level it spreads joy from the FP experience. Score one. [2] As you stated, modern Chinese-made pens work right out of the box. I like yourself and others have had pens 10x and more in cost; not function until putzing and adjustment get it to do what it was supposed to do in the first place. Here function is almost guaranteed - score another for the Chinese pen manufacturers. [3] Chinese pens seem to be lighter in weight. I do not have good data on this other than to say it is usually the first thing I notice about CCC-pens (CCC=Chinese Copy Cat). Grab a Lamy Safari and a CCC Safari and see the difference. Tap it with a probe of some type (like a good quality chopstick) and one can hear the difference. The plastic composition is a lighter density and from experience, not as durable as originals. Minus one for the CCC pens. [4] Related to #2; the Chinese manufacturers have succeeded and advanced the manufacturing process of fitting fine pieces together with accuracy AND precision into functional nib-feed/section-barrel interfaces. I would say they have move top the top of the class in that manufacturing aspect of engineering. Score another for CCC pens.
OK, enough of that. I think the question becomes the following. Now that functionality and quantity are checked off, when will creativity/originality/innovation become characteristic? Will free thinking in the Chinese FP world take root? Only time will tell. Thank you for your videos and sharing your thoughts!
It's a conundrum. I basically don't like copies. On the other hand, the odds are very slim that I will ever have the money to purchase an actual 823, so buying a copy isn't taking money away from Pilot, because they would never get that money... I dunno. The other side of it is that my favorite thing about Pilots are their nibs, which is clearly a big difference... For now, I think I'll stick with my Explorer and Prera.
Honestly you buy a pilot 823 because it’s a pilot 823. You buy a Visconti because it’s a Visconti. Etc etc. You could buy a cheap knockoff of them, and be perfectly happy with it, as they just put ink to paper and look neat. In the end, it won’t ever be a decision between a 20 dollar pen and a 200 dollar pen for anyone considering buying a 200 dollar pen. They want it because they want the real thing, and not a bic or a sharpie or whatever. Just as it will never be a decision between a 30 dollar timex or Casio vs a bulova or a wittnauer.
The patent issue pushed away comments on the pen itself!
I may add that, ultimately, it is not the patent that protect the product, it is the value that consumers see in it. For example, if tomorrow Apple start producing the most awful products and hope that their customers will remain faithful and they will be able to sue anyone who copies them, they will be in for a rude awakening, eventually running out of income to finance their litigation.
We should also make the difference between a copy, however close it is, and a fake, where the product is made to look produced by the patent holder. There are no ways one can defend fakes, but copies + improvements are fair game!
Patent and Copy right © are separate things, patent can be filed for a novel idea such as the mechanism and typically runs for max of 25 years. This has expired without doubt. Another thing is copy right this has do with the design, there is no expiry date on this. So no matter how old the Coco Cola bottle is around I can't copy it. When it comes to Pilot 823 it is based on common cigar share which is used by Mont Blanc and so many other pens out there so it's not unique to Pilot custom 823 so it would be hard for pilot to defend the copy on that basis.
If a $20 pen writes and looks as good as $200 then it's up to the consumer to choose if Pilot name is worth the extra $180
the thing I could name being most worthy of worry is the fact that the unknown price for the labor and other things taken for granted by others and that THAT changes the perception of value in conversation, potentially killing new product development, what was previously high cost for understandably very limited product, or maybe make it up with the middle ground product that the high or low cost company used to make the similar product if either side is taking their deserved advantage from the situation, or just the idea of even quality control becomes underrated in common conversation, and yet so many people whined about their cheap product to must be excellent;
I understand that 'matured' craftsmen/creator/company maybe can, and usually has to, brush off the 'value' argument of their potential market from overwhelmingly influencing their life, but if it does become the general idea for their potential market to compare and demonize anything that is slightly expensive, the product/service is probably destined to sink.
As an owner of an 823(m), I must say that the removable section seems like an improvement. It's a real burden to clean and swap inks out of my 823.
But here's the deal: No one buys the 823 for the vacuum filler or the plastic body. They buy it for THE NIB. The reason why the 823 is a grail pen for many people is the gold, size 15, gorgeously-tuned NIB. This, of course, is the exact thing you cannot get for $20.
My advice: If you are more than a year into your fountain pen life, keep your $20 and find another $200 so you can get this nicer nib.
It’s the correct point & aproach here ( but in europe 200 is not enough...)
mwesterholm : very good points and well stated. Thank you!
I bought my 823 primarily for the nib as you said, but also for the size (grip girth, length, etc.) and the build. It is truly my all-round favorite pen; Pilot's Custom 74 comes close and is less expensive. I suspect the fabrication tolerances of the Pilot are better than those of the knock off, but I can't judge that on screen. Certainly, the Pilot nib is superior, but $200 worth?
I'm with Stephen in his opinion and quandary but I would also prefer to avoid the worry and quandary and simply stay with Pilot. If you can afford the Pilot, go with the Pilot and don't look back!
That's what I think, too. I have a Pilot 845 with B nib; theoretically the look of it can be copied, but I do not believe anyone can copy the feel of that nib gliding across paper. So, would I buy something because it looks like Pilot 845? No. Would I buy it if someone says it does not look similar, but writes with the same angel touch? Yes.
Orrrrrrr: buy the inexpensive wing sun and keep an eye out for a beautiful old vintage, flexible gold nib you can put in it....!
Bebop ba baddoo ba badadoo be bop scataragatoo. Yo my man. Hit me up with that pen one time.
Perhaps some might be relieved to learn that Wing Sung now also offers the same pen (not sure what they are calling it) but with a piston filling method instead of the vacuum fill. Thank you for sharing this.
Given China's history of intellectual property issues, I tend to shy away from Chinese pens. (Full disclosure - I did buy a 12-pack of Hero Parker 51 knockoffs several years ago for about $13, just out of curiosity, but they weren't even worth what I spent on them.) I'm fortunate in that I can afford to spend a few hundred dollars on a pen if I really want to, and I recognize that not everyone can do that (because I used to be one of those who could not). So I can't really criticize someone who buys a Chinese copy. At the end of the day, it's up to Pilot and Lamy and Montblanc and Parker to enforce their patents and trademarks and protect their intellectual property, not we the end users. Like you said, Stephen - we don't really have any way of knowing whether the patents and trademarks involved are still in force or not.
The recent episode where Figboot's likeness was being used without his permission on a website selling $20 "Parker Duofolds" is an entirely different matter - deliberate and knowing deception was involved there, both in the use of the Figboot GIF and in the claims made about the pens themselves. 18k solid gold nib for only $20? I don't think so.
Hero had a deal with Parker that fell through, and for their trouble Parker left them tooling and said, go forth, make pens.
They are, to my knowledge, in this aspect unique.
@@jacobus57 That's interesting. I had read somewhere that the Chinese government appropriated a Parker factor when the communists took power in 1949 and booted Parker out of the country. But I can't recall where I read that, and have no idea if there is any truth to it.
Not only design, they also get inspired by the brand names. Ladies and gentlemen - introducing “Moonman” fountain pen, even better than Waterman. Waterman makes, well, only Waterman pens. We have pens inspired by Pilot, TWSBI, and many more.
It's not an exact copy. There are actually slight improvements in the design, not to mention an entirely different selection of materials, and hence manufacturing procedure. It's Wing Sung's intellectual property.
It just looks, feels, and operates exactly like a Pilot.
Nice that you touch on this moral issue. No one else does. Perhaps it relates to Stoicism. I agree--it's a problem. Now they knock off Italian pens immediately and very closely in China--acrylic is almost as beautiful and nibs are fine. China has the technology not to copy anymore and they should make their own completely original designs now--they'll undersell EU and out compete without copying.
Stephen I owe you another $4.99! For that vocal jazz scat! Damn u! Lol , everything is copied innit? Prince copied Hendrix, everybody copied Jordan, who cares, if you want name brand buy Kellogg’s if not buy clover valley!!! Great review Stephen! .....your mate , Jude
Does anybody here think Montblanc were the first to put out a cigar shaped pen? If you do then you prepare to be surprised. And how much different is the Pilot 823 to the Montblanc 146/149. The Chinese copy thing with fountain pens is a specious argument, it's just that they are Chines and inexpensive. If there was a patent or any form of copyright or these inexpensive pens were masquerading as something they were not, then have at it otherwise well.........
thanks for the review - what a lovely looking pen.
I just ordered one from eBay in translucent brown for £16.75 including shipping from China - bargain (as long as it arrives!)
I’ve only been at this hobby for a few years, but considering you could have someone unfamiliar with the Pilot 823 buy the Wing Sung 699, then tell their friends, “This 699 Wing Sung sure is great!” Something about that seems even more evil than someone knowingly buying a pen that’s been built to emulate an existing more expensive brand. It’s like Wing Sung is trying to start their own buzz around a pen that they lazily copied.
I don’t know, but for me, my personal experience with my Wing Sung 626 was lousy enough (nib burped ink and hard started at the same time) that I won’t bother with the brand anymore. On top of the nib issues, I feel like the barrel threading into the cap is sticky and unpredictable. Could anything feel more cheap?