This is an old debate, but I didn't realize it existed or that I had it in my files until last night. I haven't listened to it yet, so it should be interesting. - moderator
Even if Romans 11 talks about Jews receiving Christ again, it says nothing about land or temple rebuilding or rulership over the Middle East or the world. People conflate too many things.
Hebrews chp 10 said Christ came in the Volume of the Book verse 15,16 the Holy is a witness confirming Jeremiah 31, 31 was fulfilled in Christ as the reality New Covenant God made with Israel...not when He come again. The Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 verse 15,16, 17, Christ reign is till he comes and then cometh The End, when death is destroyed!❤
Brother bertolu will never get it if he don't make the correct difference of the term Israel. Teachers mixt match that term and instantly they apply it to the today's Jews. They are not Israel till the day they get born again. As now are sons of Haggard, not the spiritual woman.
New Covenant Whole Gospel: How many modern Christians cannot honestly answer the questions below? Who is the King of Israel in John 1:49? Is the King of Israel now the Head of the Church, and are we His Body? Who is the “son” that is the “heir” to the land in Matthew 21:37-43? Why did God allow the Romans to destroy the Old Covenant temple and the Old Covenant city, about 40 years after His Son fulfilled the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 in blood at Calvary? What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word. Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary. God is not now a “racist”. He has extended His love to all races of people through the New Covenant fulfilled by His Son’s blood at Calvary. The Apostle Paul warned against using “genealogies” in our faith in 1 Tim. 1:4, and Titus 3:9. If the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20 and the Old Covenant is "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, why would any Christian believe God is going back to the Old Covenant system during a future time period? === Who is really teaching “Replacement Theology” ? (Did God fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary? Matthew 26:28, John 19:30) The advocates of modern Dispensational Theology often accuse others of promoting “Replacement Theology”, or some may even say “Antisemitism”. What does the Bible say about their accusations? 1. Who is replacing Christ as the seed of Abraham through which all the families of the Earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3, with Abraham’s modern descendants? (See Paul’s interpretation in Galatians 3:8, 3:16.) 2. Who is replacing the one people of God in John 10:16, with two peoples of God ? 3. Who is replacing the one seed (Christ) in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds? 4. Who is replacing the children of the promise in Romans 9:8, with the children of the flesh? 5. Who is replacing the word “remnant” in Romans 9:27, with the word “nation”? 6. Who is replacing the faithful “remnant” of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5, with the Baal worshipers? 7. Who is replacing the word "so" in Romans 11:26, with the word "then"? 8. Who is attempting to replace the Church made up of all races of people, with one made up only of Gentiles? Why did Peter address the crowd as “all the house of Israel” in Acts 2:36, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ on the Day of Pentecost? 9. Based on Hebrews 12:18-24, the New Covenant cannot be separated from the Messiah’s death. Is the covenant in Daniel 9:27 connected to the Messiah’s death in Daniel 9:26. Is the covenant with the “many” in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the “many” in Matthew 26:28? If it is, some have replaced the New Covenant in Daniel 9:27 with a future covenant made by an antichrist not found in Daniel chapter 9. (See the 1599 Geneva Bible used by the Pilgrims.) 10. Those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology often accuse others of teaching “Replacement Theology”, but are they the masters of it? Are they promoting a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race? (See “genealogies” in Titus 3:9) Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis? 11. Watch the UA-cam video “Genesis of Dispensational Theology” to see the origin of this man-made doctrine, which is less than 200 years old. It was brought to the United States about the time of the Civil War by John Nelson Darby. The doctrine was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and then spread through much of the modern Church. Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas Texas was created in part to promote John Darby’s Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology. Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church:
“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.” Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107. Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.” Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323. John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated… "...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.” John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25 ------------------------- Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, is this earth “eternal”? Will it be replaced by a new earth? Based on Acts 2:36, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and James 1:1-3, can faithful Israel and the Church be separated into two different groups? Who is the New Covenant promised to in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and is it fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24? Will modern Orthodox Jews ever be saved outside of the New Covenant Church, if the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20? (See also 2 Thess. 1:7-10) If the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant “obsolete” in Hebrews 8:6-13, why would God go back to the Old Covenant system during a future time period? Read the recent book "The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism", by Daniel G. Hummel.
@@aprinz5648 I wrote the article above, but some of these concepts are found in Hummel's book. Watch the video "Genesis of Dispensational Theology", if you want to see the original source of the "Two Peoples of God" doctrine.
Just wanted to say "Hi" Steve...currently going through your videos on church history. Very much appreciate your insights into the artificial constraints imposed on salvation by the ecumenical councils. How crystal clear was the Christology of the disciples? Probably not a whole lot of thought given to the precise nature of the Christ. Much more so to wholehearted devotion, regardless of their particular Christology.
Great debate of scripture understanding. I clearly see both sides and often read scripture that clearly says the blessing flow through the promised seed Jesus so rejecting the promise/despising the birth right is a problem. But if scripture foretells of a day when as a nation Israel will accept and return to God, which it clearly does putting the two together and getting a clear understanding of of when or how is in God’s hands and plan. I consider Scripture in John that tells us the one that denies Jesus is the Christ it he that is the anti-christ. Denying Jesus is definitely in opposition to God and His plan. So complexly of scripture and prophecy to unfold, later rain, the wise will understand. Pray for Justice and righteousness to prevail, wisdom and understanding for those seeking truth. The courage to stand against the voices of error. Blessed is He who comes in the name of Yehovah.
Jesus already came a second time. It was in judgment in 70AD! He's not coming again. We die and go to him. Scripture teaches absent from the body present with the Lord! Scripture teaches it is appointed unto man to die once and then the judgment! Then you get a glorified Heavenly Body and spend eternity in Heaven! Scripture teaches our citizenship is in Heaven not on planet earth! I could go on and on! Futurist Eschatologies are bankrupt!
I agree with steve on this 100%, the bible teaches replacement theology where the NEW Covenant REPLACES the old covenant. read romans 11, "israel" is made up of BELIEVING Jews AND Believing gentiles. unbelieving jews and unbelieving gentiles are NOT "israel " (the olive tree) and are not Gods people. secondly NOWHERE does the bible teach that most/all jews will be saved OR that there will be a great revival in the end times.. romans 11 says that when the full number of the Gentiles COME IN (into israel/olive tree) that THIS will be "all israel being saved".
Fulfillment theology is more accurate. It was by faith that the believers were saved in the Old Testament, and it remains to be by faith that believers are saved today, the better covenant is that salvation is available for all whosoever believe in Jesus Christ.
Part 2 ua-cam.com/video/wTQbn9ghOCU/v-deo.html
This is an old debate, but I didn't realize it existed or that I had it in my files until last night. I haven't listened to it yet, so it should be interesting. - moderator
26:00 Mic drop!
Thanks Steve.
Even if Romans 11 talks about Jews receiving Christ again, it says nothing about land or temple rebuilding or rulership over the Middle East or the world. People conflate too many things.
Tommy typically yells either to emphasize his points or as he’s frustrated from losing the debate.
As most dispensationalist do
When they quickly run out of logic they always resort to emotion.
Hebrews chp 10 said Christ came in the Volume of the Book verse 15,16 the Holy is a witness confirming Jeremiah 31, 31 was fulfilled in Christ as the reality New Covenant God made with Israel...not when He come again. The Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 verse 15,16, 17, Christ reign is till he comes and then cometh The End, when death is destroyed!❤
Brother bertolu will never get it if he don't make the correct difference of the term Israel. Teachers mixt match that term and instantly they apply it to the today's Jews. They are not Israel till the day they get born again. As now are sons of Haggard, not the spiritual woman.
This was good to listen to.
I had begun to think that I was about the only one left that believed the New Testament teaching on this subject
New Covenant Whole Gospel: How many modern Christians cannot honestly answer the questions below?
Who is the King of Israel in John 1:49? Is the King of Israel now the Head of the Church, and are we His Body? Who is the “son” that is the “heir” to the land in Matthew 21:37-43? Why did God allow the Romans to destroy the Old Covenant temple and the Old Covenant city, about 40 years after His Son fulfilled the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 in blood at Calvary?
What the modern Church needs is a New Covenant Revival (Heb. 9:10) in which members of various denominations are willing to re-examine everything they believe and see if it agrees with the Bible, instead of the traditions of men. We need to be like the Bereans. It will be a battle between our flesh and the Holy Spirit. It will not be easy. If you get mad and upset when someone challenges your man-made Bible doctrines, that is your flesh resisting the truth found in God's Word. Nobody can completely understand the Bible unless they understand the relationship between the Old Covenant given to Moses at Mount Sinai and the New Covenant fulfilled in blood at Calvary.
God is not now a “racist”. He has extended His love to all races of people through the New Covenant fulfilled by His Son’s blood at Calvary. The Apostle Paul warned against using “genealogies” in our faith in 1 Tim. 1:4, and Titus 3:9.
If the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20 and the Old Covenant is "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, why would any Christian believe God is going back to the Old Covenant system during a future time period?
===
Who is really teaching “Replacement Theology” ?
(Did God fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary? Matthew 26:28, John 19:30)
The advocates of modern Dispensational Theology often accuse others of promoting “Replacement Theology”, or some may even say “Antisemitism”. What does the Bible say about their accusations?
1. Who is replacing Christ as the seed of Abraham through which all the families of the Earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3, with Abraham’s modern descendants? (See Paul’s interpretation in Galatians 3:8, 3:16.)
2. Who is replacing the one people of God in John 10:16, with two peoples of God ?
3. Who is replacing the one seed (Christ) in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds?
4. Who is replacing the children of the promise in Romans 9:8, with the children of the flesh?
5. Who is replacing the word “remnant” in Romans 9:27, with the word “nation”?
6. Who is replacing the faithful “remnant” of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5, with the Baal worshipers?
7. Who is replacing the word "so" in Romans 11:26, with the word "then"?
8. Who is attempting to replace the Church made up of all races of people, with one made up only of Gentiles? Why did Peter address the crowd as “all the house of Israel” in Acts 2:36, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ on the Day of Pentecost?
9. Based on Hebrews 12:18-24, the New Covenant cannot be separated from the Messiah’s death. Is the covenant in Daniel 9:27 connected to the Messiah’s death in Daniel 9:26. Is the covenant with the “many” in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the “many” in Matthew 26:28? If it is, some have replaced the New Covenant in Daniel 9:27 with a future covenant made by an antichrist not found in Daniel chapter 9. (See the 1599 Geneva Bible used by the Pilgrims.)
10. Those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology often accuse others of teaching “Replacement Theology”, but are they the masters of it? Are they promoting a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race? (See “genealogies” in Titus 3:9) Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
11. Watch the UA-cam video “Genesis of Dispensational Theology” to see the origin of this man-made doctrine, which is less than 200 years old. It was brought to the United States about the time of the Civil War by John Nelson Darby. The doctrine was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and then spread through much of the modern Church.
Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas Texas was created in part to promote John Darby’s Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology.
Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church:
“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.
Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.
John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…
"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”
John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25
-------------------------
Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, is this earth “eternal”? Will it be replaced by a new earth?
Based on Acts 2:36, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and James 1:1-3, can faithful Israel and the Church be separated into two different groups?
Who is the New Covenant promised to in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and is it fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24?
Will modern Orthodox Jews ever be saved outside of the New Covenant Church, if the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20? (See also 2 Thess. 1:7-10) If the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant “obsolete” in Hebrews 8:6-13, why would God go back to the Old Covenant system during a future time period?
Read the recent book "The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism", by Daniel G. Hummel.
Great comment! I gained a lot just from reading your post. Is this found in the book from Daniel Hummel?
@@aprinz5648 I wrote the article above, but some of these concepts are found in Hummel's book. Watch the video "Genesis of Dispensational Theology", if you want to see the original source of the "Two Peoples of God" doctrine.
I would be interested in seeing the long power point version you mentioned. I enjoy learning from you. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Where is part 2
ua-cam.com/video/wTQbn9ghOCU/v-deo.html
Just wanted to say "Hi" Steve...currently going through your videos on church history. Very much appreciate your insights into the artificial constraints imposed on salvation by the ecumenical councils. How crystal clear was the Christology of the disciples? Probably not a whole lot of thought given to the precise nature of the Christ. Much more so to wholehearted devotion, regardless of their particular Christology.
Romans chp two 28,29 Paul said the true identity of a jew was circumcision of the heart not the flesh.
Yes, very true. - moderator
I am confused as to how he can say it is not conditional for Abraham. That is not what I get reading genesis 17:14
Great debate of scripture understanding. I clearly see both sides and often read scripture that clearly says the blessing flow through the promised seed Jesus so rejecting the promise/despising the birth right is a problem. But if scripture foretells of a day when as a nation Israel will accept and return to God, which it clearly does putting the two together and getting a clear understanding of of when or how is in God’s hands and plan. I consider Scripture in John that tells us the one that denies Jesus is the Christ it he that is the anti-christ. Denying Jesus is definitely in opposition to God and His plan. So complexly of scripture and prophecy to unfold, later rain, the wise will understand. Pray for Justice and righteousness to prevail, wisdom and understanding for those seeking truth. The courage to stand against the voices of error. Blessed is He who comes in the name of Yehovah.
Jesus already came a second time. It was in judgment in 70AD! He's not coming again. We die and go to him. Scripture teaches absent from the body present with the Lord! Scripture teaches it is appointed unto man to die once and then the judgment! Then you get a glorified Heavenly Body and spend eternity in Heaven! Scripture teaches our citizenship is in Heaven not on planet earth! I could go on and on! Futurist Eschatologies are bankrupt!
I agree with steve on this 100%, the bible teaches replacement theology where the NEW Covenant REPLACES the old covenant. read romans 11, "israel" is made up of BELIEVING Jews AND Believing gentiles. unbelieving jews and unbelieving gentiles are NOT "israel " (the olive tree) and are not Gods people. secondly NOWHERE does the bible teach that most/all jews will be saved OR that there will be a great revival in the end times.. romans 11 says that when the full number of the Gentiles COME IN (into israel/olive tree) that THIS will be "all israel being saved".
Fulfillment theology is more accurate. It was by faith that the believers were saved in the Old Testament, and it remains to be by faith that believers are saved today, the better covenant is that salvation is available for all whosoever believe in Jesus Christ.
I Romans chp 11, the jews that was cute off, can be grafted back in" If " they abide still not in unbelief, by believing in Christ the same way .
We have a new hermenutic. Its called Spiritualization!