I'm not sure this is what Everest does to people, more so what it reveals about people. Thanks, as always, for your measured approach and excellent content. 🙏
It's laughable and oddly nauseating to think that after the "poignant" ceremony they held for Mallory they ended up defiling and looting his corpse just a couple weeks later. And what they did to the Sherpa was even more disgusting. Thank you Michael for your commitment to the facts. You probably piss a lot of people off with these exposes.
I have binge watched you entire back catalog of videos recently and I am convinced that you are correct. Mallory and Irvine likely made the summit and then perished in the decent late at night. The location you have pinpointed makes sense for the last resting place of Irvine. The last four years have demonstrated to me how accurate you Carl Sagan quote is and how little honor means to most people. Aa someone who has always loved the mountains, it is discouraging how little respect people have shown in this instance. Thank you for your content- looking forward to part 3.
Im still pissed at Synott s 'Lost in the Arctic' where he wastes a whole hour of mine to find 'nothing'. He did the same on Everest. He still makes money screwing the rest of us out of ours.
Another facinating video Michael. I'm really hooked on what happened on the 1999 expedition that found Geoge Mallory. I have watched their videos many times and found it appaling how the team when against all rules of archeology.
it's a shame it would be so prohibitively difficult to get an actual archaeological expedition up there. as an archaeologist myself i can only think of heinrich schliemann blasting his way through the troy he was actually looking for to get to the one with gold below it to compare to the amateur hour antics these teams display. as much as research ethics boards are more about protecting an institution from liability than real ethics, one still can't imagine they would sanction this kind of deception on the part of researchers, either. (my historian siblings, on the other hand, have no such excuse - the primary sources are as available to them as they are to anyone else if not more so, not 8k up a mountain)
Thank you for pointing me to that Undiscovered episode on Jake Norton’s 2019 expedition and how it completely contradicts the story Synnott is trying to sell. It’s a shame that Jake’s expedition gets a lot less attention than the Synnott thievery of National Geographic and the sherpas.
It is not available in many countries, so for viewers searching for it on Amazon, it is not available to a bunch of people. Here is a Spanish Language version: ua-cam.com/video/QnnmsNwksC8/v-deo.html
Initially, when I read the book I didn’t think too much about the statement that was made about the Sherpa being duped. I recognized that this was a lucrative job for them. When they were doing the debrief and everyone was still a friend, I thought things were “all good”, I thought, everything was fine. The Sherpa could continue on the mountain. Knowing that Lahkpa hasn’t been on the mountain since that 2019 climb is one of the worst stories about Everest that I have encountered. I have an Asian friend that has taught me so much about his culture. An American idea of, “it’s better to ask forgiveness” can get an Asian in significant trouble. Cultural differences are a real thing. Synod being so naive or stupid in that moment is the apex of a westerner projecting on a culture he knew almost nothing about. I feel for Lahkpa and any of the other Sherpa that were damaged by this crew. This may sound a bit over the top, but I hope he is still alive and doing ok…
I'm an amateur armchair Everest "stan", and I'm quite accustomed to the selfish, self important, and arrogant personality types that (unfortunately) seem to be drawn to that beautiful mountain. They'd step over their gasping grandma to get to the summit, while helping themselves to her last canister of oxygen. And then toss their used one next to her. But, losing trust with your Sherpas is probably the most foolhardy thing a person could do. They can be the difference sitting on that razor's edge between making it back down with a great story, and dying alone, lost, snow blind, freezing and gasping from air hunger. But the bigger reason, (although probably not taken into consideration by self aggrandizing jerks), is that guiding people up those mountains is sometimes their only means to feed their families. You get to fly back to Chicago or wherever and your job as a day trader, while the Sherpas are struggling to get their children through another winter with sufficient food and supplies. I wouldn't mess with my Sherpas, if I were in any position to make that climb. There needs to be mutual respect and trust, and I'd defer to their expertise about anything related to the mountain.
Last year Pollard said he was writing a book on the 1999 expedition. Certainly it would takes a long time to figure out how to dissemble and explain away what he did.
I hope that Politz and others who have info will give an independent and complete account of what happened on that day 2 weeks after Mallory had been given a Christian burial.
Regarding the 1999 expedition: what's a catchy title for a 3-act dramatization of the human dynamics of it (?) "Able Was I Ere I Saw Everest" . . . ""Axe, Lies, and Videotape" . . . "Mountain Sickness" . . . "Death Zone Doublethink" . . . (?)
I watched the whole Pollard talk a couple weeks ago, and it was a good listen. Ive been thinking about it, and he probably hasnt released some of his photos, cause no one will pay him enough money for them. Thats my guess.
Possibly, but likely a private collector would pay 6-7 figures ($100,000 US to $1,000,000 US) to have the photos of Mallory's face with the condition that they receive the negatives, no other prints exist, and Thom not talk about who he sold them to or whether they were sold. No reason to believe that is what he did, but I would think that would be enough money to entice Thom to do so. It would be nice to think that people would "donate them to science." But I would understand why we would sell them at that price. Would you do the same? At what price would you sell them to a private collector who would keep them secret forever? A fake ice axe that wasn't even Mallory's fetched $240K Canadian on open market. Such a transaction, if Thom did indeed do it, would not be illegal and is not a "black market" deal. People sell stuff confidentially all the time.
@@michaeltracy2356Yeah makes sense. Either has already, or is still holding out. What id wanna do is sell them to someone that would be willing to release them, but then again, thats probably not worth even a tenth of the price.
Another fascinating video Michael. I've been following the discovery of George Mallory since he was discovered in 1999. One of the first discrepancies is what Synnott reveals in his book is the "code phrase" that tells the others in the party that a climber has been discovered. In the original footage shot by the team, Conrad Anker states that it was, and I'm paraphrasing, let's stop for a Snickers break. Dave Hahn remembers that his radio was not functioning well, but he eventually figures it out when he sees the climbers congregating at a spot on the mountain. I was appalled at the treatment that they gave Mallory. I went against all archeologic methodologies. And I just cringed at the fact that they rifled through the artifacts that they found in their camps! It seems that Dave Hahn as distanced himself from this debacle. Can you comment on this please Michael?
Hi. This video showed up when I searched for today's Jeopardy! game. Idk why, but I am def not complaining. I am oldish now, but hv been deeply intetested in such matters, usually surrounding crypto stuff, which let to Tom Slick, which led to yeti, Mt. Everest etc. And I hv a deep investment in the mistreatment of indigenes under colonization.
What does Pollard do for a living? Is his entire financial and personal well-being tied up in his role in the Mallory expeditions, or does he have a job?
It appears that the strategy is to milk Everest as a cash cow. It's kind of along the same lines as former Navy SEALs exploiting their own service in the military for book deals.
I'll just be two minutes... I'm just going 20 feet... I understand the overwhelming temptation to visit a particular spot you've researched for so long, especially considering you'll likely never have the chance to visit it again. But that was not the way to go about it.
Excellent video Michael. You seem less well-disposed towards Mark Synott than when you reviewed the Third Pole. What, at that time, looked like a post-truth exposé with some benefit for the enlightened reader was, in fact, just deception.
And some of it is he insistence that he is in fact "telling the truth." The stuff about the Chinese was funny -- that they carried a bust of Chairman Mao to the summit. It would seem that is "post-truth" in that no reasonable person would believe it. And yet, it does appear Synnott does -- as well as everything else "anonymous" Chinese officials say. So, I will probably do an "Everything Wrong" video for The Third Pole.
@@michaeltracy2356Has anyone asked Synnott what he thinks the odds are of someone making it to the summit without water? Or anyone else from the natgeo team. Deceiving the sherpas knowing that their actions could effect the sherpas lively hood is next level scumbagery.
So essentially, he went back and grave robbed Mallory? Only upset that he didn't get to discover the body and wanted to get some material for future talks and of course a book
Great video. These are some pretty scandalous actions; just terrible behavior from folks who should know better and it’s a gut punch to hear their Sherpa has had no work on the mountain since. I don’t think you have to worry about anything being found in the location identified in your ‘final resting place.’ Well, at least not a body. Mark would surely know that, even if he had to leave the proper forensic examination to others, he would have immediate international fame, more lucrative book deals, fantastic amounts of money and 25yrs worth of interview/appearance requests a la Conrad Anker if he could find Irvine and prove it with pictures/video and a short search of the body. I don’t think he would care too much about having to let the Chinese run the “forensic examination” on his discovery. His fortune would have already been made. I could certainly envision a case where he finds something else related to M+I and decides to sit on it pending further investigation in the hopes of it guiding him to the answer, but I think it’s safe to assume that if Irvine ever was there, he wasn’t by 2019.
This is the most insane everest story ive ever heard. Cant imagine witholding major expedition plans from guides, but have also witnessed the types of insane disrespectful behaviors, including at altitude and on holy site at tibet's mt. kailash, that give western adventure tourists their awful reputations
Can I suggest in your videos, when showing the drone picture of the north face, show a person symbol for scale? It's so hard to get a sense of the scale of what we're looking at.
The body of Namgyal Sherpa is visible at the bottom of the exit crack. It is barely visible due to the scale. A human size symbol would be very very small in most of the photos I use to illustrate routes, distances, etc.
I am new to Everest youtube. These two have been giving me red flags in all of their videos. Sometimes it was what they said, other times it was how they said it. I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt. My intuition has again proven to be right.
Isn't it odd that the Chinese would publicise the location of mallory's body but then undertake some sort of coverup/removal for Irvines? even if he had summit rocks or a camera they could easily dispose of them whilst acknowledging that they found the body. If they were that concerned about undermining the 1960 climb wouldn't they have hidden mallory or taken him off as well?
Michael, I know you and others have looked at the fall line issue. It is perhaps an optical illusion because of POV, but it certainly looks like Mallory's remains were found west of the fall lines in which Synott was searching. The body seems like a better clue to the correct fall line than is the ice ax, which may have been moved or incorrectly located or conceivably was never a proper marker of the fall.
Yes, the ice axe was well to the west of Synnott's stated search area and the only place photos of him going. Thus, if the body appears to the west of Synnott's search, that is consistent with it being below the ice axe location which was also well west of Synnott's published search. I will get into these issues in the video where I pinpoint Mallory's body. Ultimately, there are a number of locations Mallory could have fallen from to end up in that location and the mountain sort of "funnels" down there. Thus, using the body, you get a wider area to search than using the rather vague ice axe location. Given the description of what the 1933 team was doing when they recovered the ice axe, their vague description can be narrowed down fairly well. It is on the ledge below the cave and likely to the east of it, though it could extend to just past the cave -- at which point you need to ascend to reach the First Step as Wyn-Harris did. The big problem is that whenever there is a photo pointing down, it always look like it goes directly to what the camera is pointing to. But I'll get into it in the video. The most important thing is pinpointing Mallory. And there are very good reasons the 1999 team has incorrectly reported the altitude for the past 25 years.
Also look at the 3d model: og.realitymaps.de/RealityMaps/?mount-everest. While not 100% accurate, you can get an idea of the problem with the varying slope of the mountain in that region and "fly" around to see the proper angle. The body location is consistent with the ice axe location, but it is also consistent with other locations as we
@@michaeltracy2356 It would be really interesting if you could have the zigzag route on the 3d model as a selective route option to view and get the stats from it. Know you have given some of that in other videos but would be cool to visualize.
My guess is, why they haven't done an expedition, is, the mountain has been closed on that side, since covid! The only climbs have been private, putting a weather station, up there! Not open to the public!
I’ve keenly watched your Everest YT videos pertaining to Mallory then I unsuspectingly watched pollards YT videos mostly recently, and I immediately started to say huh what the ?? as I listened knowing what I recalled you said based on facts in yours. I have now unsubscribed from pollards YT channel and no longer wish to listen to his false accounts and especially knowing of his imo disturbing and revolting actions with Mr Mallory’s body. Thanks for highlighting the importance of the facts especially in the Mallory and Irvine matter. Cheers !
Hi Michael, Since when has the chinese gov prohibited "searches" on the mtn? And why? Do you think they only want to prevent M&i from being found? Or do you think there are "other reasons" Do you think the chinese are not wanting the world to know M&I made it first?
It seems they only prevent some searches. Clearly, they knew these people were searching for Irvine and they gave them a permit for the drone. They knew the 1999 team found Mallory and they didn't kick them off the mountain. Both the 1999 book "Detectives on Everest" and the 2020 book "The Third Pole" conclude without any doubt that the Chinese 1960 team reached the summit -- no questions asked. Thus, there is a correlation between being permitted to search and publishing books that state the 1960 team made it. Of course, correlation does not equal causation. But my entry permit was denied in 2015, so not everyone is welcome all the time on the Mountain. And Conrad Anker was denied in 2023. In his book The Lost Explorers: Incidentally, I’m convinced - as Reinhold Messner is too - that the Chinese did not climb the Second Step in 1960. It’s unfathomable to think of taking off your boots and trying the cliff in stocking feet there. It’s too convenient that reaching the top in the dark explains the team’s failure to bring back summit photos. And I suspect that reporting the crux of the cliff at the Second Step as only three meters high, when in truth it’s a good twenty-five feet, was a concoction to make it plausible that it could have been surmounted by a shoulder stand. Anker, Conrad; Roberts, David. The Lost Explorer (p. 221). Little, Brown Book Group. It does not seem the Chinese care whether it is "proven" that Mallory and Irvine made it. In 1924, Tibet was not part of China and Mao was just getting started. As Mallory and Irvine clearly died, it doesn't mean much to any Chinese claims. However, if the Chinese did not make it in 1960, this means the Americans were the first to make it from the North Side. It would also have Chairman Mao being duped by the climbers who told him they made it. So, the real issue is the 1960 climb, not the 1924 one.
I'm curious, because I've seen conflicting reports. Is mallory still where they buried him? Any idea who took mallory's pants you previously did a video on?
Thom Pollard and Andy Politz were the ones that took the pants. As other people can not identify exactly where Mallory is buried, it is not clear how they would know if he was there or not. Someone saying, "Oh, I searched Mallory's location and there was nothing there" is meaningless because the 1999 team has always misreported the actual location with their descriptions. You need to take the photos and line up the landmarks to find where he really is -- or look at "Jake's War Map." If he was indeed not there, a legitimate searcher would take a photo of the grave sight and show that it was empty. Bodies missing from graves without proof are what start religions and horror movies, not legitimate scientific debate.
@@michaeltracy2356 It looks like you've made a nice, not-so-subtle dig at Christianity at the end there. However, there is documentary evidence to support an empty grave with the one-time occupant alive once again - eye-witnesses made statements attesting to it after the fact, they were peer-reviewed at the time and have been considered genuine by many ever since. What you choose to believe is your choice to make, of course, but then, the alternative to that worldview is ultimately no more provable: both sides base their belief on the preponderance of evidence, not proof. Much of 'legitimate scientific debate' has reversed previously accepted conclusions and is no indicator of actual veracity. In fact, much of this channel's content is based on deductions from presented statement and inferred evidence, not proof. You have spent a great deal of time analyzing the statements of others about the fates of men you cannot change; are you willing to analyze with the same intensity the claims you seem to disparage regarding an empty grave?
Now if I've been paying attention to all your videos, 2024 (The 100th anniversary of his disappearance) will be the year that Irvine's body will be "miraculously" discovered by these yahoos?
I had thought that was the most likely scenario, but something in that drone photo indicates it might be otherwise. I will get into it in an upcoming video but there are other people looking for Irvine and as bad as the 1999 team and the 2019 Nat Geo team were, there are people who are far worse. Will probably make it just a "Member's Only" video as it requires an understanding that there are groups of people in the world who operate illegally. And while things like drug cartels, the Mafia, Yakuza, do in fact exist, any time you allege that a group of people are working together for nefarious ends, you get labeled a "conspiracy theorist" on the internet. If you can't go to darkebay.com and bid on stolen artifacts, people assume that such transactions don't exist. There is just such a naivete with viewers in this community that they would believe the "Chinese" would throw a body down the mountain for no reason rather than think a group of tomb raiders would do so to destroy some of the evidence of what they took and when they took it. And no, I am not talking about Thom Pollard and the others. There are people far worse than them on that Mountain. But as these people don't post UA-cam videos of what they are doing, it is a "conspiracy theory."
OK and how many of us have spent an hour since reading this comment poring over the drone photo?? And to say, people are gullible and cynical at the same time or alternating depending on the topic.@@michaeltracy2356
@@michaeltracy2356honestly it makes sense to me that there are far worse people on the mountain. I have seen enough horrible stuff in my life to know that there are horrible people everywhere. I doubt the mountain has a forcefield that would prevent these people from being there too.
If certain climbers know where Sandy Irvine lies and are planning to return to "discover" it in the full glare of 100th anniversary fame/publicity, would they have left a marker or some sort of beacon to guide themselves back to the exact spot?
Unlikely. You can easily identify a location by the surrounding rocks. Photos of the area would be enough. More likely they would try to cover him with snow/rocks so that others don't find him. Like Mallory, Irvine probably already has some covering of rocks that fell naturally no matter where he is.
Well, thanks . . . I guess. I'll spend the night processing whether it's better to be dis-illusioned about human nature and risk a corresponding cynicism . . . or retain one's illusions and avoid that risk. Which Roshomon character does that make me . . . (?)
That is at the ending of Roshomon. It present that dilemma. It is captured in the characters who witnessed the narration -- the Woodcutter, the Priest, and the Peasant. The Peasant is disillusioned, gives up on humanity and steals the kimono from the baby. The Woodcutter regains his faith in humanity when the Priest is holding the baby. The Woodcutter takes the baby to raise.
Sorry, kind of new to this. What does the CTMA have against searching for Mallory or Irvine? Or have they submitted a route for approval and are supposed to stick to it?
CTMA is the lower level and they just enforce the rules that come down from the CMA. Tough to say why different rules exist. In 2018, the entire city of Shegar was off-limits and a CMA liaison officer (a higher level official) accompanied me pretty much everywhere I went to make sure I didn't wander over to Shegar. I was in Shegar in 2013 and left largely unattended. Was able to hike up to the old monastery. So, while it is impossible to say why the Chinese do what they do, the Chinese has a long history of attaching acceptance of the 1960 summit with access to their mountains. Chris Bonnington said they convinced him they made in and he was granted access to climb. 1999 team says they made it, they are welcomed back in 2001. 2019 team says they made it, they get a drone permit. That is the only westerner I am aware of that has been given a drone permit. As long as you say the Bust of Chairman Mao was carried to the top in 1960, it seems they are ok with whatever you do.
The Holzel slot is not visible from that location -- not even close. But he could point in the general direction -- there is sort of a snow ramp leading up from there that crosses over the top of the "Holzel Slot."
All of the non-Sherpa's involved should be blacklisted from the mountain, full stop. Dangerous behaviour that risks the livelihoods of so many, and in cases their lives too.
When I watched the documentary in 2019 my first reaction how exciting, they are going to Hozel spot, but they way did it was truly disrespectful to the sherpas, i guess they was in a rock and a hard place, if they told the truth they would of wrecked their plan. Tough one to call,
Synnott reminds me of Gavin Newsom and I’ll leave it at that. Pollard reminds me of a slew of progressive politicians who play to peoples emotions while saying non-sensical kinda dumb stuff.
I think the upshot of all of these videos is: things are not always what they appear to be. How does his being a troublemaker . . . square with his being so obvious about it (?) Are there conceivable reasons that he would want to _appear_ to be a troublemaker (?)
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I'm not sure this is what Everest does to people, more so what it reveals about people. Thanks, as always, for your measured approach and excellent content. 🙏
It's laughable and oddly nauseating to think that after the "poignant" ceremony they held for Mallory they ended up defiling and looting his corpse just a couple weeks later. And what they did to the Sherpa was even more disgusting.
Thank you Michael for your commitment to the facts. You probably piss a lot of people off with these exposes.
I have binge watched you entire back catalog of videos recently and I am convinced that you are correct. Mallory and Irvine likely made the summit and then perished in the decent late at night. The location you have pinpointed makes sense for the last resting place of Irvine. The last four years have demonstrated to me how accurate you Carl Sagan quote is and how little honor means to most people. Aa someone who has always loved the mountains, it is discouraging how little respect people have shown in this instance. Thank you for your content- looking forward to part 3.
Which quote was it if I mind you?
When you started on the deception I was wondering about the Sherpas working afterward. It did give me an example to work with The Himalayan Database.
Tracy is on the case, love it
Thanks Michael great show appreciate your work
Im still pissed at Synott s 'Lost in the Arctic' where he wastes a whole hour of mine to find 'nothing'. He did the same on Everest. He still makes money screwing the rest of us out of ours.
Look on the bright side... At least you saved an hour of my time.
Always enteraining! But, stays focused! Remarkable work! Thank you! Mr. Tracy!
I would say these are a little "off topic," but sometimes you have to give the viewers what they want.
Their treatment of the Sherpas is a perfect display of privilege and arrogance. Certainly, the 2019 team was deceptive.
It continues to be disgusting what was done to Mallory's body and it would not surprise me if other things come out about what was done to it.
This is exciting!! Ready for part 3!!🥰
Another facinating video Michael. I'm really hooked on what happened on the 1999 expedition that found Geoge Mallory. I have watched their videos many times and found it appaling how the team when against all rules of archeology.
Excellent video. Glad I'm finally caught up.
Another great video. The sound is so much better than your older videos. I need to catch up with your work Michael.
it's a shame it would be so prohibitively difficult to get an actual archaeological expedition up there. as an archaeologist myself i can only think of heinrich schliemann blasting his way through the troy he was actually looking for to get to the one with gold below it to compare to the amateur hour antics these teams display. as much as research ethics boards are more about protecting an institution from liability than real ethics, one still can't imagine they would sanction this kind of deception on the part of researchers, either.
(my historian siblings, on the other hand, have no such excuse - the primary sources are as available to them as they are to anyone else if not more so, not 8k up a mountain)
Thank you for pointing me to that Undiscovered episode on Jake Norton’s 2019 expedition and how it completely contradicts the story Synnott is trying to sell. It’s a shame that Jake’s expedition gets a lot less attention than the Synnott thievery of National Geographic and the sherpas.
It is not available in many countries, so for viewers searching for it on Amazon, it is not available to a bunch of people. Here is a Spanish Language version: ua-cam.com/video/QnnmsNwksC8/v-deo.html
Initially, when I read the book I didn’t think too much about the statement that was made about the Sherpa being duped.
I recognized that this was a lucrative job for them. When they were doing the debrief and everyone was still a friend, I thought things were “all good”, I thought, everything was fine. The Sherpa could continue on the mountain.
Knowing that Lahkpa hasn’t been on the mountain since that 2019 climb is one of the worst stories about Everest that I have encountered.
I have an Asian friend that has taught me so much about his culture. An American idea of, “it’s better to ask forgiveness” can get an Asian in significant trouble. Cultural differences are a real thing.
Synod being so naive or stupid in that moment is the apex of a westerner projecting on a culture he knew almost nothing about.
I feel for Lahkpa and any of the other Sherpa that were damaged by this crew. This may sound a bit over the top, but I hope he is still alive and doing ok…
I'm an amateur armchair Everest "stan", and I'm quite accustomed to the selfish, self important, and arrogant personality types that (unfortunately) seem to be drawn to that beautiful mountain. They'd step over their gasping grandma to get to the summit, while helping themselves to her last canister of oxygen. And then toss their used one next to her.
But, losing trust with your Sherpas is probably the most foolhardy thing a person could do. They can be the difference sitting on that razor's edge between making it back down with a great story, and dying alone, lost, snow blind, freezing and gasping from air hunger. But the bigger reason, (although probably not taken into consideration by self aggrandizing jerks), is that guiding people up those mountains is sometimes their only means to feed their families. You get to fly back to Chicago or wherever and your job as a day trader, while the Sherpas are struggling to get their children through another winter with sufficient food and supplies.
I wouldn't mess with my Sherpas, if I were in any position to make that climb. There needs to be mutual respect and trust, and I'd defer to their expertise about anything related to the mountain.
Last year Pollard said he was writing a book on the 1999 expedition. Certainly it would takes a long time to figure out how to dissemble and explain away what he did.
Probably the "Everything Wrong" analysis of that book would be the longest video in UA-cam history.
I'm sure Pollard's account of the events will be accurate, considering it's been only 25 years and still fresh in his memory.
Actual lol. . @@michaeltracy2356
@@michaeltracy2356or a UA-cam Short on "only thing right" ?
I hope that Politz and others who have info will give an independent and complete account of what happened on that day 2 weeks after Mallory had been given a Christian burial.
This is beyond fascinating .
As always a fantastic exposition. Love your videos in every way.
Regarding the 1999 expedition: what's a catchy title for a 3-act dramatization of the human dynamics of it (?) "Able Was I Ere I Saw Everest" . . . ""Axe, Lies, and Videotape" . . . "Mountain Sickness" . . . "Death Zone Doublethink" . . . (?)
Thank you Sir, very intriguing stuff. The amount of work and research for this videos must be as big as Everest :) .
I hope that Lhakpa Tenzing has not portered/sherpa since this on his own verition and not a result of the "deception"
Thank you, looking forward to your next video 🙏🙏
I watched the whole Pollard talk a couple weeks ago, and it was a good listen. Ive been thinking about it, and he probably hasnt released some of his photos, cause no one will pay him enough money for them. Thats my guess.
Possibly, but likely a private collector would pay 6-7 figures ($100,000 US to $1,000,000 US) to have the photos of Mallory's face with the condition that they receive the negatives, no other prints exist, and Thom not talk about who he sold them to or whether they were sold. No reason to believe that is what he did, but I would think that would be enough money to entice Thom to do so. It would be nice to think that people would "donate them to science." But I would understand why we would sell them at that price. Would you do the same? At what price would you sell them to a private collector who would keep them secret forever? A fake ice axe that wasn't even Mallory's fetched $240K Canadian on open market. Such a transaction, if Thom did indeed do it, would not be illegal and is not a "black market" deal. People sell stuff confidentially all the time.
@@michaeltracy2356Yeah makes sense. Either has already, or is still holding out. What id wanna do is sell them to someone that would be willing to release them, but then again, thats probably not worth even a tenth of the price.
@@michaeltracy2356 Was it a film camera or digital camera? Does he own copyright or was he required to sign it away to the sponsor?
@@michaeltracy2356 Right. Thanks . . .
Another fascinating video Michael. I've been following the discovery of George Mallory since he was discovered in 1999. One of the first discrepancies is what Synnott reveals in his book is the "code phrase" that tells the others in the party that a climber has been discovered. In the original footage shot by the team, Conrad Anker states that it was, and I'm paraphrasing, let's stop for a Snickers break. Dave Hahn remembers that his radio was not functioning well, but he eventually figures it out when he sees the climbers congregating at a spot on the mountain.
I was appalled at the treatment that they gave Mallory. I went against all archeologic methodologies. And I just cringed at the fact that they rifled through the artifacts that they found in their camps!
It seems that Dave Hahn as distanced himself from this debacle. Can you comment on this please Michael?
I'll get into some of this in Part 3 of the response. But I may do a couple "normal" videos in between.
Hi. This video showed up when I searched for today's Jeopardy! game. Idk why, but I am def not complaining.
I am oldish now, but hv been deeply intetested in such matters, usually surrounding crypto stuff, which let to Tom Slick, which led to yeti, Mt. Everest etc. And I hv a deep investment in the mistreatment of indigenes under colonization.
What does Pollard do for a living? Is his entire financial and personal well-being tied up in his role in the Mallory expeditions, or does he have a job?
Right -- just the kind of question to ask. Props.
It appears that the strategy is to milk Everest as a cash cow. It's kind of along the same lines as former Navy SEALs exploiting their own service in the military for book deals.
The expression that comes to mind is, "lie of omission."
And is that good or bad (?) Not an easy question to answer . . .
I'll just be two minutes... I'm just going 20 feet... I understand the overwhelming temptation to visit a particular spot you've researched for so long, especially considering you'll likely never have the chance to visit it again. But that was not the way to go about it.
Excellent video Michael. You seem less well-disposed towards Mark Synott than when you reviewed the Third Pole. What, at that time, looked like a post-truth exposé with some benefit for the enlightened reader was, in fact, just deception.
And some of it is he insistence that he is in fact "telling the truth." The stuff about the Chinese was funny -- that they carried a bust of Chairman Mao to the summit. It would seem that is "post-truth" in that no reasonable person would believe it. And yet, it does appear Synnott does -- as well as everything else "anonymous" Chinese officials say.
So, I will probably do an "Everything Wrong" video for The Third Pole.
@@michaeltracy2356Has anyone asked Synnott what he thinks the odds are of someone making it to the summit without water? Or anyone else from the natgeo team.
Deceiving the sherpas knowing that their actions could effect the sherpas lively hood is next level scumbagery.
So essentially, he went back and grave robbed Mallory? Only upset that he didn't get to discover the body and wanted to get some material for future talks and of course a book
Great video. These are some pretty scandalous actions; just terrible behavior from folks who should know better and it’s a gut punch to hear their Sherpa has had no work on the mountain since. I don’t think you have to worry about anything being found in the location identified in your ‘final resting place.’ Well, at least not a body. Mark would surely know that, even if he had to leave the proper forensic examination to others, he would have immediate international fame, more lucrative book deals, fantastic amounts of money and 25yrs worth of interview/appearance requests a la Conrad Anker if he could find Irvine and prove it with pictures/video and a short search of the body. I don’t think he would care too much about having to let the Chinese run the “forensic examination” on his discovery. His fortune would have already been made.
I could certainly envision a case where he finds something else related to M+I and decides to sit on it pending further investigation in the hopes of it guiding him to the answer, but I think it’s safe to assume that if Irvine ever was there, he wasn’t by 2019.
Why do I believe your story? You reference Rashomon.
This is the most insane everest story ive ever heard. Cant imagine witholding major expedition plans from guides, but have also witnessed the types of insane disrespectful behaviors, including at altitude and on holy site at tibet's mt. kailash, that give western adventure tourists their awful reputations
The youngest sherpa saying "this is not nepal, this is china" really hits it. Mind boggling they would attempt this, evn more so on the north side.
Can I suggest in your videos, when showing the drone picture of the north face, show a person symbol for scale? It's so hard to get a sense of the scale of what we're looking at.
The body of Namgyal Sherpa is visible at the bottom of the exit crack. It is barely visible due to the scale. A human size symbol would be very very small in most of the photos I use to illustrate routes, distances, etc.
I am new to Everest youtube. These two have been giving me red flags in all of their videos. Sometimes it was what they said, other times it was how they said it. I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt. My intuition has again proven to be right.
Isn't it odd that the Chinese would publicise the location of mallory's body but then undertake some sort of coverup/removal for Irvines? even if he had summit rocks or a camera they could easily dispose of them whilst acknowledging that they found the body. If they were that concerned about undermining the 1960 climb wouldn't they have hidden mallory or taken him off as well?
Michael, I know you and others have looked at the fall line issue. It is perhaps an optical illusion because of POV, but it certainly looks like Mallory's remains were found west of the fall lines in which Synott was searching. The body seems like a better clue to the correct fall line than is the ice ax, which may have been moved or incorrectly located or conceivably was never a proper marker of the fall.
Yes, the ice axe was well to the west of Synnott's stated search area and the only place photos of him going. Thus, if the body appears to the west of Synnott's search, that is consistent with it being below the ice axe location which was also well west of Synnott's published search.
I will get into these issues in the video where I pinpoint Mallory's body. Ultimately, there are a number of locations Mallory could have fallen from to end up in that location and the mountain sort of "funnels" down there. Thus, using the body, you get a wider area to search than using the rather vague ice axe location. Given the description of what the 1933 team was doing when they recovered the ice axe, their vague description can be narrowed down fairly well. It is on the ledge below the cave and likely to the east of it, though it could extend to just past the cave -- at which point you need to ascend to reach the First Step as Wyn-Harris did.
The big problem is that whenever there is a photo pointing down, it always look like it goes directly to what the camera is pointing to. But I'll get into it in the video. The most important thing is pinpointing Mallory. And there are very good reasons the 1999 team has incorrectly reported the altitude for the past 25 years.
Also look at the 3d model: og.realitymaps.de/RealityMaps/?mount-everest. While not 100% accurate, you can get an idea of the problem with the varying slope of the mountain in that region and "fly" around to see the proper angle. The body location is consistent with the ice axe location, but it is also consistent with other locations as we
@@michaeltracy2356 Thanks. I see what you mean... 3D is very helpful.
@@michaeltracy2356 It would be really interesting if you could have the zigzag route on the 3d model as a selective route option to view and get the stats from it. Know you have given some of that in other videos but would be cool to visualize.
So did the Sherpa's get screwed? Is that why they haven't done a expedition since?
My guess is, why they haven't done an expedition, is, the mountain has been closed on that side, since covid! The only climbs have been private, putting a weather station, up there! Not open to the public!
I’ve keenly watched your Everest YT videos pertaining to Mallory then I unsuspectingly watched pollards YT videos mostly recently, and I immediately started to say huh what the ?? as I listened knowing what I recalled you said based on facts in yours. I have now unsubscribed from pollards YT channel and no longer wish to listen to his false accounts and especially knowing of his imo disturbing and revolting actions with Mr Mallory’s body. Thanks for highlighting the importance of the facts especially in the Mallory and Irvine matter. Cheers !
Hi Michael, Since when has the chinese gov prohibited "searches" on the mtn? And why? Do you think they only want to prevent M&i from being found? Or do you think there are "other reasons" Do you think the chinese are not wanting the world to know M&I made it first?
It seems they only prevent some searches. Clearly, they knew these people were searching for Irvine and they gave them a permit for the drone.
They knew the 1999 team found Mallory and they didn't kick them off the mountain.
Both the 1999 book "Detectives on Everest" and the 2020 book "The Third Pole" conclude without any doubt that the Chinese 1960 team reached the summit -- no questions asked. Thus, there is a correlation between being permitted to search and publishing books that state the 1960 team made it. Of course, correlation does not equal causation. But my entry permit was denied in 2015, so not everyone is welcome all the time on the Mountain. And Conrad Anker was denied in 2023. In his book The Lost Explorers:
Incidentally, I’m convinced - as Reinhold Messner is too - that the Chinese did not climb the Second Step in 1960. It’s unfathomable to think of taking off your boots and trying the cliff in stocking feet there. It’s too convenient that reaching the top in the dark explains the team’s failure to bring back summit photos. And I suspect that reporting the crux of the cliff at the Second Step as only three meters high, when in truth it’s a good twenty-five feet, was a concoction to make it plausible that it could have been surmounted by a shoulder stand.
Anker, Conrad; Roberts, David. The Lost Explorer (p. 221). Little, Brown Book Group.
It does not seem the Chinese care whether it is "proven" that Mallory and Irvine made it. In 1924, Tibet was not part of China and Mao was just getting started. As Mallory and Irvine clearly died, it doesn't mean much to any Chinese claims. However, if the Chinese did not make it in 1960, this means the Americans were the first to make it from the North Side. It would also have Chairman Mao being duped by the climbers who told him they made it. So, the real issue is the 1960 climb, not the 1924 one.
China is not one thing. There are different periods with different personalities with different attitudes. There are conflicts among them.
I'm curious, because I've seen conflicting reports. Is mallory still where they buried him? Any idea who took mallory's pants you previously did a video on?
Thom Pollard and Andy Politz were the ones that took the pants. As other people can not identify exactly where Mallory is buried, it is not clear how they would know if he was there or not. Someone saying, "Oh, I searched Mallory's location and there was nothing there" is meaningless because the 1999 team has always misreported the actual location with their descriptions. You need to take the photos and line up the landmarks to find where he really is -- or look at "Jake's War Map." If he was indeed not there, a legitimate searcher would take a photo of the grave sight and show that it was empty. Bodies missing from graves without proof are what start religions and horror movies, not legitimate scientific debate.
@@michaeltracy2356 It looks like you've made a nice, not-so-subtle dig at Christianity at the end there. However, there is documentary evidence to support an empty grave with the one-time occupant alive once again - eye-witnesses made statements attesting to it after the fact, they were peer-reviewed at the time and have been considered genuine by many ever since. What you choose to believe is your choice to make, of course, but then, the alternative to that worldview is ultimately no more provable: both sides base their belief on the preponderance of evidence, not proof. Much of 'legitimate scientific debate' has reversed previously accepted conclusions and is no indicator of actual veracity. In fact, much of this channel's content is based on deductions from presented statement and inferred evidence, not proof. You have spent a great deal of time analyzing the statements of others about the fates of men you cannot change; are you willing to analyze with the same intensity the claims you seem to disparage regarding an empty grave?
The Sherpas talk like Georges position was common knowledge to them.
Now if I've been paying attention to all your videos, 2024 (The 100th anniversary of his disappearance) will be the year that Irvine's body will be "miraculously" discovered by these yahoos?
I had thought that was the most likely scenario, but something in that drone photo indicates it might be otherwise. I will get into it in an upcoming video but there are other people looking for Irvine and as bad as the 1999 team and the 2019 Nat Geo team were, there are people who are far worse.
Will probably make it just a "Member's Only" video as it requires an understanding that there are groups of people in the world who operate illegally. And while things like drug cartels, the Mafia, Yakuza, do in fact exist, any time you allege that a group of people are working together for nefarious ends, you get labeled a "conspiracy theorist" on the internet. If you can't go to darkebay.com and bid on stolen artifacts, people assume that such transactions don't exist. There is just such a naivete with viewers in this community that they would believe the "Chinese" would throw a body down the mountain for no reason rather than think a group of tomb raiders would do so to destroy some of the evidence of what they took and when they took it. And no, I am not talking about Thom Pollard and the others. There are people far worse than them on that Mountain. But as these people don't post UA-cam videos of what they are doing, it is a "conspiracy theory."
OK and how many of us have spent an hour since reading this comment poring over the drone photo?? And to say, people are gullible and cynical at the same time or alternating depending on the topic.@@michaeltracy2356
Who are these people? How do they have access to the mountain if they're so bad
@@michaeltracy2356honestly it makes sense to me that there are far worse people on the mountain. I have seen enough horrible stuff in my life to know that there are horrible people everywhere. I doubt the mountain has a forcefield that would prevent these people from being there too.
If certain climbers know where Sandy Irvine lies and are planning to return to "discover" it in the full glare of 100th anniversary fame/publicity, would they have left a marker or some sort of beacon to guide themselves back to the exact spot?
Unlikely. You can easily identify a location by the surrounding rocks. Photos of the area would be enough. More likely they would try to cover him with snow/rocks so that others don't find him. Like Mallory, Irvine probably already has some covering of rocks that fell naturally no matter where he is.
Well, thanks . . . I guess. I'll spend the night processing whether it's better to be dis-illusioned about human nature and risk a corresponding cynicism . . . or retain one's illusions and avoid that risk. Which Roshomon character does that make me . . . (?)
That is at the ending of Roshomon. It present that dilemma. It is captured in the characters who witnessed the narration -- the Woodcutter, the Priest, and the Peasant. The Peasant is disillusioned, gives up on humanity and steals the kimono from the baby. The Woodcutter regains his faith in humanity when the Priest is holding the baby. The Woodcutter takes the baby to raise.
Sorry, kind of new to this. What does the CTMA have against searching for Mallory or Irvine? Or have they submitted a route for approval and are supposed to stick to it?
CTMA is the lower level and they just enforce the rules that come down from the CMA. Tough to say why different rules exist. In 2018, the entire city of Shegar was off-limits and a CMA liaison officer (a higher level official) accompanied me pretty much everywhere I went to make sure I didn't wander over to Shegar. I was in Shegar in 2013 and left largely unattended. Was able to hike up to the old monastery.
So, while it is impossible to say why the Chinese do what they do, the Chinese has a long history of attaching acceptance of the 1960 summit with access to their mountains. Chris Bonnington said they convinced him they made in and he was granted access to climb. 1999 team says they made it, they are welcomed back in 2001. 2019 team says they made it, they get a drone permit. That is the only westerner I am aware of that has been given a drone permit. As long as you say the Bust of Chairman Mao was carried to the top in 1960, it seems they are ok with whatever you do.
Everest mystery channel , tends to block you when truth comes to reply 😂 says all I need to know without saying a word 😊
Also, can anyone tell if the Holzel slot is visible in the background when he unclips in the film?
The Holzel slot is not visible from that location -- not even close. But he could point in the general direction -- there is sort of a snow ramp leading up from there that crosses over the top of the "Holzel Slot."
All of the non-Sherpa's involved should be blacklisted from the mountain, full stop.
Dangerous behaviour that risks the livelihoods of so many, and in cases their lives too.
Why are so many videos and photographs kept secret?
thats the question, why so much secrecy
When I watched the documentary in 2019 my first reaction how exciting, they are going to Hozel spot, but they way did it was truly disrespectful to the sherpas, i guess they was in a rock and a hard place, if they told the truth they would of wrecked their plan.
Tough one to call,
Your mind must be mush at this point 😂😢
Lots of lies, deception and half truths.
Or as we say in the Mallory and Irvine community, a Monday.
@@michaeltracy2356 Ha, ha, ha. Only the first day of a routine week.
👍👍👍👍👍
Synnott reminds me of Gavin Newsom and I’ll leave it at that. Pollard reminds me of a slew of progressive politicians who play to peoples emotions while saying non-sensical kinda dumb stuff.
i use to think thom pollard was a decent person but now i know he is a trouble maker
Pollard's videos paint himself as a nice guy who respects others...aside from Sherpas and Mallory's body, I guess.
I think the upshot of all of these videos is: things are not always what they appear to be. How does his being a troublemaker . . . square with his being so obvious about it (?) Are there conceivable reasons that he would want to _appear_ to be a troublemaker (?)
I came to that conclusion after starting his video about Sandy Pittman, everyone's favorite punching bag.
yay another michael tracy video. serious topic.
And the yahoos say silent...