Thanks so much Ron. Really fun video. Everyone just needs to be comfortable with their equipment and give the game a chance by not taking risky shots and using an appropriate grain weight
So much dancing on the head of pin. I sight all my .243 through .300 Win Mag to about 3/4 to an inch high at 50 yards. Yields optimal MPBR with a fuzz adjustment here or there.
It would be interesting to see the comparison between lighter bullets vs heavier ones for drop and wind deflection at reasonable hunting distances. A 130-grain vs 145 or 150 for the 270, for example, or a 150-grain vs 178 or 180 for the 30-06 or 308. I remember about 20 years ago when the Short Mags were introduced and the 150 grain load seemed the most popular for the 300 WSM. Since this was before laser rangefinders were common, the idea was fast and flat to minimize issues of mis-estimating range. I wonder how far that really was an advantage, though. It would be interesting to see what the difference was at 300 to 500 yards, especially vs some of the newer, higher BC bullets. Thanks
I noticed this for the first time when I started reloading 6 or 7 years ago. I hunt caribou moose and bear in Alaska. As I was considering what calibers I was wanting I looked a lot of different cartridges. The energy and 300 yard performance made my decisions for me. I have the 300 Weatherby mag, the 7mm Remington mag, and the 338. I do have others but these are my primary choices
Great video Ron. Having been a bowhunter also, I always have felt getting as close to game as possible to be the real challenge. I also know I'm just so-so marksman. Living in the southeast, never have hunted for anything other than deer and have concluded that all these rounds are effective when using a quality bullet.
Love this channel! You've said what I've kinda been thinking for a while. I swear you're like that really cool uncle that knows all the interesting details.
Great video Ron. Looking primarily at deer, 25-06 (Browning Abolt Medallion, Leupold 2-7) has been my go to for 4 decades. Hunting small fingers of woods by bean and corn fields, it has never let me down. All one shot kills and DRT out to 300 yards. Ne er had to shoot further. Reloads with Nosler Solid Base bullets with Reloader 22. Only have a few of those left. I’m now working with the 25 PRC wildcat. Worthy replacement for the 25-06. Although I still have 4 of the 06s.
Ron you nailed it. Gravity is the same all the time. Faster is flatter. But i shoot a 85 to 90 grain bullet in 243. It does a terrific job on on white tail and axis at 2 to 300 yards in Ozona Texas. I can shoot it and the 264 mag with 120 gr bullets at 3200 or so. And do mule deer with the 264 in Sanderson Tx.
I think it proves how important the cartridge design is and the shot placements. That 20-06 really got my attention. I think it would be great for follow-up shots with much less recoil!
Preach on Ron. Unfortunately, point blank range is no longer the standard by which many follow these days. Nowadays, it's all about minimizing group size at some distance to a paper target that extends far beyond the average shooting distance to hit an animal.
Interesting stuff. In these cases, we're really looking at differences in terminal performance. Probably don't need the absolute hardest hitting. Hit the right spot and they all work.
Thanks Ron, for pointing out once again that new cartridges are to sell more products. The improvements are really in the bullets. Guess I’ll keep using my 50 year old Model 70 in 30/06 and the 40 year old.257 Robert’s. I’ll continue to maintain shooting at over 200 yards in the field is questionable ethically. Yes, with range finder, no wind, stationary target, good rifle rest, but that isn’t normal. Normal is sitting, unknown distance, unknown wind, and a mobile target that can move in the half second between when you start the squeeze and the impact at 300 yards.
Hell Ron my name is joe sterner im tge fellow that asked you to do a segment one the 3006 and its parent cartridges,I would really love to see you do this same thing with surplus military cartridges,of course with commercial ammo and reloads. The caparison list should be say, 6.5 carcano,6.5 Japanese,6.5 swedish,7x57,3006,7.5 Swiss,7.5 French,8x57,8x50 r lebel,7.62x54 R. And 303 brit, this would be very educational and interesting for those that love to use or are thinking about using a surplus military rifle for hunting applications so people can see which are the best
Ron, do you find that in the hunting community there are many more 'shooters' than there are 'hunters' today? I am older and grew up in a time where nobody would consider a shot at game over say 300 yards, now with rangefinders, huge magnification optics, and the like people feel like a 600, 700, and 800 yard shots are ethical. Maybe if the person spent every weekend practicing at those distances it could be ethical. However, Is stalking a lost skill? I would rather stalk closing the distance on an animal to within 200 yds or less and know with almost 100% certainly that animal would be meat in the freezer. With extended range shots even in the best conditions with light winds with all the current technology there is a much higher chance of missing or wounding an animal than to have a clean ethical kill.
Great video. I think in business they call it the law of diminishing returns. And so it is with rifle cartridges. You have to invest a lot and have some high twist barells pushing high BC bullets (which often cost more) to get any appreciable increase in performance.
Bought a 300 RUM 1999’ ….the year they were introduced. Bought it for Elk hunting. Never used it for it yet. Used it for bear, deer, and Pronghorn. My 243 works just as good and a lot of times it drops animals quicker because the thinner energy dumping bullet design. They all work with the correct bullet choice.
You won't get any argument from me, Ron. I've been saying the same thing. Over the last few months, I've run data on multiple loads each for dozens of cartridges thru ballistics calculators, recorded the results in tables and converted the tables to graphs (too much time on my hands - actually, I was trying to decide what to get). At practical distances for which I'd use any of them, they all seem to do about the same thing. Not exactly the same, but all (as they say) within minute-of-deer. sure, 7mm-08 is not a 300 Win Mag, but guess what ...at 182 yards or 281 yards, a whitetail can't tell the difference Update / PS - considering model, availability and price as well as cartridge characteristics and a little nod to nostalgia, I went with a .270 Win. :-)
I stopped buying CARTRIDGES about 5 years ago for the most part. I started buying RIFLES in a cartridge that I like, and does what I want that rifle to do. Been much happier that way.
I came to the same conclusion when reloading and running ballistic calc. I tried to stretch my gun's capabilities but realized when comparing them that they're all very similar ballistics within a few inches. I then started to look more at energy. Then I carry what is most nostalgic or adds more to the hunt for me. Then I learn to ride the gun
It’s always baffled me that we (myself included) describe our hunting rifles primarily by the cartridges in which they’re chambered (this is my .30-06, sold my .300 win, etc) when really that does very little to describe the rifle. Within reasonable margins, cartridge choice makes very little tangible difference on game.
That is more of a bolt-action (aka fudd) thing. I use an AK-47 as my deer rifle. I know lots of people that use AR-15's, and many of those are in not-223/556. When talking about an AR that you use for hunting if you have a different chamber then you specify what it is (6.5G, 450 Bushmaster, etc).
@@JoeZelensky that’s true, guess I was thinking of bolt/lever/pump guns when I said hunting rifles. I’m in Canada and we have a few AR-ish options for hunting but it’s not as common here. Maybe because so many people have one rifle that needs to take care of moose as well as deer and minimum legal caliber is .243 in a lot of provinces so “normal” ARs are out the window anyway
I use a ballistic calculator and reverse figure the MPBR, I zero my 150gr 308 Interlock 1.2 inches high at 25 yards, and the point blank in the 6 inch pipe is 267 yards, used to be called The non thinking man's guide to trajectory
Hi Ron, Thanks for the usual no-nonsense explanation of realistic ballistics for some of America's favorite big game cartridges. You really talked up the 30-06 in comparison to the 300 Win Mag with 165-168 grain bullets. However, 3,000 fps for the 30-06/168 ABLR is the very highest velocity shown on Nosler's reloading data and it is unachievable with many rifles. With a load density of 114%, there's going to be a lot of crunching during bullet seating and seating depth could easily push to unacceptable pressures with short-throated chambers. Is it better to assume 2,800 fps for the 30-06 168 ABLR, roughly the max velocity for most powders besides Relodr 22?
It’s not a problem at all to get over 3000 fps out of 30-06 168 AccuBond loaded with RL22 but that’s with 26 inch barrel, that other 2 inches is the difference maker.
Malibu, a humble, most thankful howdy from me! Betsy and I salute you for your support. Most kind and generous of you. Here's wishing you bullseyes and trophy bucks!
Yep they are all the same, that is why you should have a 223 if you don't hunt big games or a 308 if you hunt big games, those are the easyest to find cheeper ammo for, so you could practice more and become a better shooter and therefore, a better hunter. You can't escape it Ron you know deep down that the 308win is the supperior cartridge😉
Hey Ron, I really appreciate the scientific angle that you apply to all of these cartridges. I would like to know how much does rain affect the flight of a bullet. Yeah, you guessed it, I live in Washington state. Most of my shots are pretty close because of all that rain and fog. Just a thought...
No worries about the rain. It actually reduces atmospheric density, so bullets drop less with distance, if you can believe that. A .48 B.C. bullet at 2,800 fps drops .4" more at 0% humidity than at 99% humidity at 600 yards! Less than 1/2" difference at 600 yards. Wind deflection is thus 1/3" less at 99% wet. Ignore the rain.
Mr. Ron, I've often seen charts of MPBR for various cartridges/bullets that lay out just how far you can keep a bullet within a vertical 6 inch "pipe." However, I never see the same for how cartridges/bullets perform in the same 6 inch horizontal pipe at various wind speeds. Is this something you can address directly in your future video on windage? By the way, love your stuff and especially love your kind and respectful way of speaking even to those who critique you. Thanks for being an example.
Honestly I think MORE is made about flight trajectory than is made about understanding terminal effects, as related to projectile design and what actually brings an ethical end to the game. In my own study on the subject, it seems the bullets that are absolutely optimized for flight, have to at the same time compromise their terminal work. What makes a bullet much better terminally (more effective with less energetic effort) at the same time makes it fly with more drag.
I would love to see a definitive study that shows that effect. Many claim a round nose "hits harder" than a spire point, but I'm not buying it IF each bullet is built to expand properly at impact velocity. Simply put, downrange the more aerodynamic bullet retains more energy. Often a lot more. So how could it hit with less impact? Now, if it doesn't expand, sure, but the flattened or mangled noses of most of my recovered bullets indicate the arrival shape (sharply pointed and boat tailed) doesn't remain that shape for more than a fraction of a second. And if the bullet stays inside the carcass, expending all its energy, it's done as much work as a flat point or round nose that also stays inside. I'm open to new info, but so far...
@@RonSpomerOutdoors But why? Let's use some backwards reasoning: If you can punch a good wound through a mammal's vitals (including bones to reach those vitals) with a large projectile, the animal dies. Since energy is merely a formulaic result of velocity and mass, one will always require some kind of velocity and some kind of mass to get the job done. Backing up from your intended mammal, air drag will reduce available wounding capability, depending on what ratio of mass and shape you are running. So we can either focus on increasing hunting skill (stalking, tracking, reading signs, working with environmental factors) to get closer, or we can obsess over the craze of modern munitions and firearms manufacturing marketing, "sexy bullets" and "sexy speed." I know you don't prefer large bore projectiles with moderate velocity (say 2,000 fps or slower), but let's remember that a non-expanding archer's arrow has killed plenty of tough beasts with very minimal speed, minimal trajectory, and minimal overall energy. How? Very high sectional density and momentum. Why would someone choose to use an arrow for a hunt over "sexy bullet shape" and "sexy bullet speed"? Because they enjoy hunting skills, not marketing hype (I say hype in the sense of not denying facts, but instead heavy emphasis on some factors while at the same time denying focus on things that don't necessarily profit munitions and firearms companies). Cartridges that have been doing the job with more "non sexy" profiles and very "non sexy" velocity over the years will often OUT PENETRATE the new hotness, with their old antiquated technology. If that small bore sleek sexy bullet fails to expand, it fails. If it expands violently and blows up, it fails. If the increased blast and recoil from that magnum high-speed gun bother's the shooter, the shot fails. If a big bore bullet with, or without expansion hits the right spot, it's going to penetrate every time and get the job done, without ruining meat, without being sensitive to impact velocity and expansion, without F-35 fighter aerodynamics. Mass, bore, sectional density, blunt shape. All the stuff modern gun-tubers really talk down about. The difference at 300-400 yards between all these BC numbers and velocities really doesn't mean much, unless you're hunting wood chucks in a wind storm. For big game, a hunter should really get closer for ethical shots and you don't need the "new hotness" for such ranges, as it only risks a blowup and lack of penetration because of all the sensitivity to impact speed/expansion ratios. Too much emphasis on bullet flight, not enough on what actually ends the life of a mammal. Tell the brown bear, elk, or white tail they should have read the spec sheet and died sooner, when hit with super-ultra-sleek-magnumitis. There's been cases where a ultra fast magnum rifle with multiple hits couldn't stop a determined grizzly bear, but a slow blunt slug from a big bore revolver quickly brought it down. The spec sheet doesn't favor that.
Ron says BC matters. According to Bryan Litz, based on the BC of a 6.5mm bullet weighing 142grains, you can calculate the weight of other caliber bullets with an equal BC: 22: 90gr 24: 115gr 28: 175gr 30: 220 gr. So what’s the point of comparing calibers?
Not only that it's keeping its higher Velocity energy with lesser drop at 400 yd which means you could probably push it at 4:50 before it drops the same amount of energy as the other two bullets
I came to realize this many years ago. All the hype and crap aside they come with new cartriges and stuff. But the faster the bullet the better the trajectory, added to that as long as its heavy enough, the quicker the kill. I've seen more white tailled deer and axis size animals killed with one shot DRT kills with 222, 243, 25 06, 270. DeadRightThere kills. And more of the same size deer tracked with 30 calibers. Why the big heavy bullets have very little expansion and go right through. Small light bullets expand, once termed hydrostatic shock. But Ron you are so right on about trajectory you push a bullet at 2600 fps and a bullet at 3200 fps the one at 3200 fps has the best trajectory. It is more about the better twist rates, better powders and bullet coeffiencies, than the hype of the new thing on the block.
Hey Ron can you please educate us on bullet types? Expansion versus penetration. Hollow point vs FMJ vs soft point etc. What is better for which situation. You do an amazing job with your channel God bless
Thirty-odd years ago I concluded (on the basis of not-so-very-extensive testing) that Hornady’s 162 grain boat-tails out of the 7mm Rem Mag case would be the optimum-for-everything bullet. Your analysis seems to suggest that, over the decades, I would have done better had I stepped down one weight class (150 - 154 grain). Here I am, well over seventy, suddenly looking askance at the substantial remaining portion of a life-time supply of those old, heavy. 1980s technology boat-tail bullets. Guess the grandkids will have to deal with the mistake …
Interesting BUT I think the similarities are due more to the relative short time/distance of 300 yards. Just looking at the noticeably greater disparity in drop at 400 yards in your data demonstrates how the difference between the different cartridges increases with range. If you expect to only be shooting game at 300 yards or less than you certainly can do well enough with wider range of cartridges. If, on the other hand, you expect (or at least are preparing for the possibility) to take shots at 500 or more yards then cartridge selection becomes MUCH more important as the disparity in energy & trajectory (both drop & drift) increases significantly.
This video and its central point is looonnng overdue. There are so many cartridges that wind up doing pretty much the same thing. We obsess over the minor differences,.and in the process arguably make ourselves look foolish.
Great comparison Ron. My experience with the 6.5 prc i havent been able to get these velocities i want to know if people are actually getting these numbers. 143s i was getting real pressure signs around 2900 fps in a 24 inch barrel.
Ron, questions for you if you get time to answer? I shoot a 243 and 2506, you’re zeroing at around 250 yards. At 100 yards where will the bullet hit? I shoot deer in the uk, so I’m normally shooting between 50 yards and 200 yards occasionally 300 yards. In your opinion, how high would impact need to be above point of aim at 100 yards, to achieve point blank range. Jim
have seen several videos in the last week of folks taking bull elk at less than 300yds with a 25-06 after another of Mr. Spomer’s videos piqued my interest in the cartridge as I had not ever even known about it before. But a .243 too? I’ll bet there’s probably someone who posted a video of that too.
I was going to have a slight gripe in your cherry picker info because the 30-06 and 270 have essentially the same case capacity yet you list the 06 pushing a much heavier bullet the same speed as the 270... However, you have gone above and beyond to prove that it probably wouldn't matter anyway lol
I bought a 7prc because i like the new stuff. I think they are giving fake velocities on the ammo boxes the 175s are getting maybe 2900fps in the hornady stuff. My load workup with 175 Nosler 175 ablrs in a 24 inch fierce barrel is 2920 fps. Good enough but i wish these manufacturers would be real.
Good observation, Cody, but the ammo boxes aren't "lying" so much as reporting the manufacturers average. One must take into account which barrel was used: length as well as bore and chamber dimensions. Some barrels are just slower than others.
Okay, so I'm going to pick out the 30.6 265 grain bullet and you said maximum point blank range is 292 yards , but you are zeroing it at 249 yd, so between $249 yards 292 yd you're telling me that that bullet is dropping another 3 in and before that it's only rising another 3 in. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just questioning it because that just doesn't sound feasible. I get that the bowl is losing energy and push as far as feet per second behind it after it reaches out 250 yards.! It just hourly amazes me that it drops 3 inches in 50 yards after it reaches 249 yards. But thanks for a great video
Question, example: If you have a 6.5 prc rifle can you load down to produce velocitys like 6.5 CM or grendel in a safe matter. One rifle to do it all in a way.. ? Thank you great vids. kindest regards, Cheap and Broke Hunter.
Yes you can. Follow the recipes in the handloading manuals. You must be careful if you go too low with powder quantity and type, but with the correct, tried and true recipes you can get a 300 Win Mag. to shoot at less than 1,800 fps.
Throw the 270 in the trash?! A few weeks back I was looking at getting a new rifle in 6.5PRC. Well after a little research I was happy to buy a 270, instead. Not only is the 6.5PRC a barrel burner, but the ammo costs at least twice as much as a 270! Better still the PRC is essentially a glorified 270...the 6.5PRC does nothing more that the 270 except cost you more😂😂 So yes in 2024 I bought a 270 and at least at the range it is a tack driver!
1000 ft/lbs of energy is needed on target to kill a deer…? Man, somebody ought to tell the handgun hunters that the cartridges they’ve been killing deer with are inadequate.
Hopefully some of the people that see these charts and data that call the 7mm Rem Mag and .30-06 outdated old Fudd cartridges will see just how versatile and effective they still are after all these years and even compared to new "wonder cartridges".
I noticed you left out God's cartridge, the 308 Win. Were you afraid it would outperform all of them. Then you would have to admit it is the greatest cartridge of all time. 😉
U don't need much power...(for non dangerous game) Just pick one and do your job as a hunter....remember the 1st nation's killed it all with a 25lb recurve ....just sayin
This is all great and it makes me think. I don't get the rule of thumb of 1000 ftps for deer. I have heard that poachers like using .22 mag and .17 HMR for deer because of noise, I don't know if it's true.
It's true, sir. 1000 foot pounds is just as arbitrary pick to encourage hunters to NOT use too light/small/slow bullets that require perfect placement for sure kills. Head shot and heart shot deer hit with a 22 Short are going to expire, but miss either target by a half inch and... Also, fast and more energetic bullets reach farther and drop less, making it easier to hit the important places.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors Thanks for the response I'm a .270, 30-06, and 9.3x64 fan myself. I'm not a long range shooter. When I lived in Indiana I used 12ga rifled slugs with great effect on Whitetails within 100 yards.
I just wish there were fewer choices and much much more availability and affordability. Just a few varmint cartridges, a few medium game cartridges, and a few heavy DG cartridges. Economy of scale, resource availability, and pricing would be better. We would be able to have what we need instead constantly seeing backordered or unavailable and waiting for years to get reloading components. I would be happy with only a 7x57, .280 rem, 308win, 30-06, for medium game. I vote we all get to together and pick 2 so I can buy ammo and components at will.
Editing suggestion: don’t keep switching back and forth forth in each load so much. Just have the data up and talk behind, much easier to absorb the numbers.
Exactly. Make your own channel in what you consider is the perfect format. I guarantee people like you will still reply with negative comments Ron. Stop holding your gun the way other people suggested that you do And block these people that are ruining it for us
Hands down, my favorite hunting/shooting UA-cam channel. Thanks so much for what you are doing, Ron!
Amen to that statement
Many thanks, Joshua.
Ron I really enjoyed the larger font charting showing just 3 cartridges on the screen at a time, so much easier to read.
Great video too.
Enjoy the video, as always. Love the 7mm Cartridge Book. Hope there is another Cartridge book in the works!
Thanks Jeffery. There is another book in the works.
Thanks so much Ron. Really fun video. Everyone just needs to be comfortable with their equipment and give the game a chance by not taking risky shots and using an appropriate grain weight
Well said!
Another very informative vidio, I’ve always been a 30 cal guy my son is 270 man , n we both get our deer very easily !! Interesting
Great vid as always. It was nice of you to include the 6.5 NeedMore😅!
So much dancing on the head of pin. I sight all my .243 through .300 Win Mag to about 3/4 to an inch high at 50 yards. Yields optimal MPBR with a fuzz adjustment here or there.
It would be interesting to see the comparison between lighter bullets vs heavier ones for drop and wind deflection at reasonable hunting distances. A 130-grain vs 145 or 150 for the 270, for example, or a 150-grain vs 178 or 180 for the 30-06 or 308. I remember about 20 years ago when the Short Mags were introduced and the 150 grain load seemed the most popular for the 300 WSM. Since this was before laser rangefinders were common, the idea was fast and flat to minimize issues of mis-estimating range. I wonder how far that really was an advantage, though. It would be interesting to see what the difference was at 300 to 500 yards, especially vs some of the newer, higher BC bullets. Thanks
I noticed this for the first time when I started reloading 6 or 7 years ago. I hunt caribou moose and bear in Alaska. As I was considering what calibers I was wanting I looked a lot of different cartridges. The energy and 300 yard performance made my decisions for me. I have the 300 Weatherby mag, the 7mm Remington mag, and the 338. I do have others but these are my primary choices
How far do you normally shoot?
Great video Ron. Having been a bowhunter also, I always have felt getting as close to game as possible to be the real challenge. I also know I'm just so-so marksman. Living in the southeast, never have hunted for anything other than deer and have concluded that all these rounds are effective when using a quality bullet.
I’ve been sold on the 25/06 and 7 mag for a whole lot of years didn’t see anything here to change my mind. Thanks Ron great info
Doesn't this comparison say that about every caliber shown?
Love this channel! You've said what I've kinda been thinking for a while. I swear you're like that really cool uncle that knows all the interesting details.
Hi Rod
Thank you again for taking the time to share your experience much appreciated with Love and Respect Bill W.
Thanks for listening
Great video Ron. Looking primarily at deer, 25-06 (Browning Abolt Medallion, Leupold 2-7) has been my go to for 4 decades. Hunting small fingers of woods by bean and corn fields, it has never let me down. All one shot kills and DRT out to 300 yards. Ne er had to shoot further. Reloads with Nosler Solid Base bullets with Reloader 22. Only have a few of those left. I’m now working with the 25 PRC wildcat. Worthy replacement for the 25-06. Although I still have 4 of the 06s.
Great info Ron! Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us!
I've used the 338 for 32 years..... deer elk moose.....250gr partition worked very fine in the saskatchewan bush!
Ron you nailed it. Gravity is the same all the time. Faster is flatter. But i shoot a 85 to 90 grain bullet in 243. It does a terrific job on on white tail and axis at 2 to 300 yards in Ozona Texas. I can shoot it and the 264 mag with 120 gr bullets at 3200 or so. And do mule deer with the 264 in Sanderson Tx.
I think it proves how important the cartridge design is and the shot placements. That 20-06 really got my attention. I think it would be great for follow-up shots with much less recoil!
Thanks as alway Ron for your diligence in the pursuit to get things right
Preach on Ron. Unfortunately, point blank range is no longer the standard by which many follow these days. Nowadays, it's all about minimizing group size at some distance to a paper target that extends far beyond the average shooting distance to hit an animal.
Thanks for another great video, Ron! I enjoy your content and am glad I ran across your work here within the last few years.
Great stuff Ron.
I just love your videos, thanks for doing what you do, I learn something with every one that I watch
You are so welcome
Great information . Well explained. Thanks.
Glad it was helpful!
Interesting stuff. In these cases, we're really looking at differences in terminal performance. Probably don't need the absolute hardest hitting. Hit the right spot and they all work.
Thanks Ron, for pointing out once again that new cartridges are to sell more products. The improvements are really in the bullets.
Guess I’ll keep using my 50 year old Model 70 in 30/06 and the 40 year old.257 Robert’s.
I’ll continue to maintain shooting at over 200 yards in the field is questionable ethically. Yes, with range finder, no wind, stationary target, good rifle rest, but that isn’t normal.
Normal is sitting, unknown distance, unknown wind, and a mobile target that can move in the half second between when you start the squeeze and the impact at 300 yards.
Hell Ron my name is joe sterner im tge fellow that asked you to do a segment one the 3006 and its parent cartridges,I would really love to see you do this same thing with surplus military cartridges,of course with commercial ammo and reloads. The caparison list should be say, 6.5 carcano,6.5 Japanese,6.5 swedish,7x57,3006,7.5 Swiss,7.5 French,8x57,8x50 r lebel,7.62x54 R. And 303 brit, this would be very educational and interesting for those that love to use or are thinking about using a surplus military rifle for hunting applications so people can see which are the best
Great knowledge Ron 👍🏼 thank you!
Great video. I am a huge PRC fan. Thanks Ron
Ron, do you find that in the hunting community there are many more 'shooters' than there are 'hunters' today? I am older and grew up in a time where nobody would consider a shot at game over say 300 yards, now with rangefinders, huge magnification optics, and the like people feel like a 600, 700, and 800 yard shots are ethical. Maybe if the person spent every weekend practicing at those distances it could be ethical. However, Is stalking a lost skill? I would rather stalk closing the distance on an animal to within 200 yds or less and know with almost 100% certainly that animal would be meat in the freezer. With extended range shots even in the best conditions with light winds with all the current technology there is a much higher chance of missing or wounding an animal than to have a clean ethical kill.
Great video. I think in business they call it the law of diminishing returns. And so it is with rifle cartridges. You have to invest a lot and have some high twist barells pushing high BC bullets (which often cost more) to get any appreciable increase in performance.
Bought a 300 RUM 1999’ ….the year they were introduced. Bought it for Elk hunting. Never used it for it yet. Used it for bear, deer, and Pronghorn. My 243 works just as good and a lot of times it drops animals quicker because the thinner energy dumping bullet design. They all work with the correct bullet choice.
You won't get any argument from me, Ron. I've been saying the same thing. Over the last few months, I've run data on multiple loads each for dozens of cartridges thru ballistics calculators, recorded the results in tables and converted the tables to graphs (too much time on my hands - actually, I was trying to decide what to get). At practical distances for which I'd use any of them, they all seem to do about the same thing. Not exactly the same, but all (as they say) within minute-of-deer.
sure, 7mm-08 is not a 300 Win Mag, but guess what ...at 182 yards or 281 yards, a whitetail can't tell the difference
Update / PS - considering model, availability and price as well as cartridge characteristics and a little nod to nostalgia, I went with a .270 Win. :-)
Ron, great show as always.
Good point.
I stopped buying CARTRIDGES about 5 years ago for the most part. I started buying RIFLES in a cartridge that I like, and does what I want that rifle to do. Been much happier that way.
I came to the same conclusion when reloading and running ballistic calc. I tried to stretch my gun's capabilities but realized when comparing them that they're all very similar ballistics within a few inches. I then started to look more at energy. Then I carry what is most nostalgic or adds more to the hunt for me. Then I learn to ride the gun
Wouldn't mind seeing this same video with the newer cartridges! 300prc, 7prc, 28 nosler, 338lm! Think that would be awesome to see!!
Excellent presentation thank you
Hunting happens before you pull the trigger. Good video, brother Ron.
It’s always baffled me that we (myself included) describe our hunting rifles primarily by the cartridges in which they’re chambered (this is my .30-06, sold my .300 win, etc) when really that does very little to describe the rifle. Within reasonable margins, cartridge choice makes very little tangible difference on game.
That’s actually very apt. Never really thought about it, but certainly have done it!
Because it's fun.
@@codyoldford1592 agreed
That is more of a bolt-action (aka fudd) thing. I use an AK-47 as my deer rifle. I know lots of people that use AR-15's, and many of those are in not-223/556. When talking about an AR that you use for hunting if you have a different chamber then you specify what it is (6.5G, 450 Bushmaster, etc).
@@JoeZelensky that’s true, guess I was thinking of bolt/lever/pump guns when I said hunting rifles. I’m in Canada and we have a few AR-ish options for hunting but it’s not as common here. Maybe because so many people have one rifle that needs to take care of moose as well as deer and minimum legal caliber is .243 in a lot of provinces so “normal” ARs are out the window anyway
I use a ballistic calculator and reverse figure the MPBR, I zero my 150gr 308 Interlock 1.2 inches high at 25 yards, and the point blank in the 6 inch pipe is 267 yards, used to be called The non thinking man's guide to trajectory
Absolutely EXCELLENT video! 😉👍🏻👍🏻
Hi Ron, Thanks for the usual no-nonsense explanation of realistic ballistics for some of America's favorite big game cartridges. You really talked up the 30-06 in comparison to the 300 Win Mag with 165-168 grain bullets. However, 3,000 fps for the 30-06/168 ABLR is the very highest velocity shown on Nosler's reloading data and it is unachievable with many rifles. With a load density of 114%, there's going to be a lot of crunching during bullet seating and seating depth could easily push to unacceptable pressures with short-throated chambers. Is it better to assume 2,800 fps for the 30-06 168 ABLR, roughly the max velocity for most powders besides Relodr 22?
It’s not a problem at all to get over 3000 fps out of 30-06 168 AccuBond loaded with RL22 but that’s with 26 inch barrel, that other 2 inches is the difference maker.
You missed the all time favorite: 7mm PRC!!! But than again - the .270 is the best balanced cartridge of them all...
Thanks!
Malibu, a humble, most thankful howdy from me! Betsy and I salute you for your support. Most kind and generous of you. Here's wishing you bullseyes and trophy bucks!
Excellent video, for a new gun owner this is very valuable info, as it is for old timers too!
Away we go.
❤ 300 Weatherby Magnum 😮 🇦🇺
That’s The G.O.A.T! The greatest, most efficient 30 Magnum of all time!
Damn that was good info👍👍👍👌
I base my cartridges on ft lbs of energy thats why I shoot weatherby. 270 weatherby 300 weatherby 340 weatherby and soon to be 257 weatherby
Yep they are all the same, that is why you should have a 223 if you don't hunt big games or a 308 if you hunt big games, those are the easyest to find cheeper ammo for, so you could practice more and become a better shooter and therefore, a better hunter.
You can't escape it Ron you know deep down that the 308win is the supperior cartridge😉
Hey Ron, I really appreciate the scientific angle that you apply to all of these cartridges. I would like to know how much does rain affect the flight of a bullet. Yeah, you guessed it, I live in Washington state. Most of my shots are pretty close because of all that rain and fog. Just a thought...
No worries about the rain. It actually reduces atmospheric density, so bullets drop less with distance, if you can believe that. A .48 B.C. bullet at 2,800 fps drops .4" more at 0% humidity than at 99% humidity at 600 yards! Less than 1/2" difference at 600 yards. Wind deflection is thus 1/3" less at 99% wet. Ignore the rain.
Mr. Ron, I've often seen charts of MPBR for various cartridges/bullets that lay out just how far you can keep a bullet within a vertical 6 inch "pipe." However, I never see the same for how cartridges/bullets perform in the same 6 inch horizontal pipe at various wind speeds. Is this something you can address directly in your future video on windage? By the way, love your stuff and especially love your kind and respectful way of speaking even to those who critique you. Thanks for being an example.
Honestly I think MORE is made about flight trajectory than is made about understanding terminal effects, as related to projectile design and what actually brings an ethical end to the game. In my own study on the subject, it seems the bullets that are absolutely optimized for flight, have to at the same time compromise their terminal work. What makes a bullet much better terminally (more effective with less energetic effort) at the same time makes it fly with more drag.
I would love to see a definitive study that shows that effect. Many claim a round nose "hits harder" than a spire point, but I'm not buying it IF each bullet is built to expand properly at impact velocity. Simply put, downrange the more aerodynamic bullet retains more energy. Often a lot more. So how could it hit with less impact? Now, if it doesn't expand, sure, but the flattened or mangled noses of most of my recovered bullets indicate the arrival shape (sharply pointed and boat tailed) doesn't remain that shape for more than a fraction of a second. And if the bullet stays inside the carcass, expending all its energy, it's done as much work as a flat point or round nose that also stays inside. I'm open to new info, but so far...
@@RonSpomerOutdoors But why? Let's use some backwards reasoning:
If you can punch a good wound through a mammal's vitals (including bones to reach those vitals) with a large projectile, the animal dies. Since energy is merely a formulaic result of velocity and mass, one will always require some kind of velocity and some kind of mass to get the job done.
Backing up from your intended mammal, air drag will reduce available wounding capability, depending on what ratio of mass and shape you are running.
So we can either focus on increasing hunting skill (stalking, tracking, reading signs, working with environmental factors) to get closer, or we can obsess over the craze of modern munitions and firearms manufacturing marketing, "sexy bullets" and "sexy speed."
I know you don't prefer large bore projectiles with moderate velocity (say 2,000 fps or slower), but let's remember that a non-expanding archer's arrow has killed plenty of tough beasts with very minimal speed, minimal trajectory, and minimal overall energy. How? Very high sectional density and momentum. Why would someone choose to use an arrow for a hunt over "sexy bullet shape" and "sexy bullet speed"? Because they enjoy hunting skills, not marketing hype (I say hype in the sense of not denying facts, but instead heavy emphasis on some factors while at the same time denying focus on things that don't necessarily profit munitions and firearms companies).
Cartridges that have been doing the job with more "non sexy" profiles and very "non sexy" velocity over the years will often OUT PENETRATE the new hotness, with their old antiquated technology.
If that small bore sleek sexy bullet fails to expand, it fails. If it expands violently and blows up, it fails. If the increased blast and recoil from that magnum high-speed gun bother's the shooter, the shot fails. If a big bore bullet with, or without expansion hits the right spot, it's going to penetrate every time and get the job done, without ruining meat, without being sensitive to impact velocity and expansion, without F-35 fighter aerodynamics. Mass, bore, sectional density, blunt shape. All the stuff modern gun-tubers really talk down about.
The difference at 300-400 yards between all these BC numbers and velocities really doesn't mean much, unless you're hunting wood chucks in a wind storm. For big game, a hunter should really get closer for ethical shots and you don't need the "new hotness" for such ranges, as it only risks a blowup and lack of penetration because of all the sensitivity to impact speed/expansion ratios.
Too much emphasis on bullet flight, not enough on what actually ends the life of a mammal. Tell the brown bear, elk, or white tail they should have read the spec sheet and died sooner, when hit with super-ultra-sleek-magnumitis.
There's been cases where a ultra fast magnum rifle with multiple hits couldn't stop a determined grizzly bear, but a slow blunt slug from a big bore revolver quickly brought it down. The spec sheet doesn't favor that.
What no Weatherby’s? Enjoyed your 7mm book!
Ron says BC matters. According to Bryan Litz, based on the BC of a 6.5mm bullet weighing 142grains, you can calculate the weight of other caliber bullets with an equal BC:
22: 90gr
24: 115gr
28: 175gr
30: 220 gr.
So what’s the point of comparing calibers?
Well so far the 25 - 6 110 grain BC is the winners so far it's a laser beam and it's a lighter weight bullet so you can carry more ammunition
Not only that it's keeping its higher Velocity energy with lesser drop at 400 yd which means you could probably push it at 4:50 before it drops the same amount of energy as the other two bullets
25-06 is the 6.5 Creedmoor Killer!
Alrighty 😊
I came to realize this many years ago. All the hype and crap aside they come with new cartriges and stuff. But the faster the bullet the better the trajectory, added to that as long as its heavy enough, the quicker the kill. I've seen more white tailled deer and axis size animals killed with one shot DRT kills with 222, 243, 25 06, 270. DeadRightThere kills. And more of the same size deer tracked with 30 calibers. Why the big heavy bullets have very little expansion and go right through. Small light bullets expand, once termed hydrostatic shock. But Ron you are so right on about trajectory you push a bullet at 2600 fps and a bullet at 3200 fps the one at 3200 fps has the best trajectory. It is more about the better twist rates, better powders and bullet coeffiencies, than the hype of the new thing on the block.
Ultimately it seems that at typical hunting ranges that the construction/type of bullet will make the biggest difference at similar weights and bc.
Hey Ron can you please educate us on bullet types? Expansion versus penetration. Hollow point vs FMJ vs soft point etc. What is better for which situation. You do an amazing job with your channel God bless
Thirty-odd years ago I concluded (on the basis of not-so-very-extensive testing) that Hornady’s 162 grain boat-tails out of the 7mm Rem Mag case would be the optimum-for-everything bullet. Your analysis seems to suggest that, over the decades, I would have done better had I stepped down one weight class (150 - 154 grain). Here I am, well over seventy, suddenly looking askance at the substantial remaining portion of a life-time supply of those old, heavy. 1980s technology boat-tail bullets. Guess the grandkids will have to deal with the mistake …
Finally landed on a recipe for 143eldx 6.5prc…55.7gr retumbo magnum primer…..2950ish shot .7”…2020 waypoint
Interesting BUT I think the similarities are due more to the relative short time/distance of 300 yards. Just looking at the noticeably greater disparity in drop at 400 yards in your data demonstrates how the difference between the different cartridges increases with range. If you expect to only be shooting game at 300 yards or less than you certainly can do well enough with wider range of cartridges. If, on the other hand, you expect (or at least are preparing for the possibility) to take shots at 500 or more yards then cartridge selection becomes MUCH more important as the disparity in energy & trajectory (both drop & drift) increases significantly.
.340 weatherby
This video and its central point is looonnng overdue. There are so many cartridges that wind up doing pretty much the same thing. We obsess over the minor differences,.and in the process arguably make ourselves look foolish.
The Best Ron is the .280 Rem. Ha Ha But I don't even own one. As when I was a young Man I had Magnum Fever.
Great comparison Ron. My experience with the 6.5 prc i havent been able to get these velocities i want to know if people are actually getting these numbers. 143s i was getting real pressure signs around 2900 fps in a 24 inch barrel.
What gun do you have in 6.5 PRC ?
Try a different powder. I'm getting 2850 with the "6.5 needmoor " 140gr.
Ron, questions for you if you get time to answer?
I shoot a 243 and 2506, you’re zeroing at around 250 yards. At 100 yards where will the bullet hit? I shoot deer in the uk, so I’m normally shooting between 50 yards and 200 yards occasionally 300 yards.
In your opinion, how high would impact need to be above point of aim at 100 yards, to achieve point blank range.
Jim
PS - you forgot to include the 308 Win, Ron 🤣🤣🤣
have seen several videos in the last week of folks taking bull elk at less than 300yds with a 25-06 after another of Mr. Spomer’s videos piqued my interest in the cartridge as I had not ever even known about it before. But a .243 too? I’ll bet there’s probably someone who posted a video of that too.
I was going to have a slight gripe in your cherry picker info because the 30-06 and 270 have essentially the same case capacity yet you list the 06 pushing a much heavier bullet the same speed as the 270... However, you have gone above and beyond to prove that it probably wouldn't matter anyway lol
I bought a 7prc because i like the new stuff. I think they are giving fake velocities on the ammo boxes the 175s are getting maybe 2900fps in the hornady stuff. My load workup with 175 Nosler 175 ablrs in a 24 inch fierce barrel is 2920 fps. Good enough but i wish these manufacturers would be real.
Good observation, Cody, but the ammo boxes aren't "lying" so much as reporting the manufacturers average. One must take into account which barrel was used: length as well as bore and chamber dimensions. Some barrels are just slower than others.
Great question Ron. Who did say the .30-06 is dead? Nobody that isn't just being silly.
That's crazy talk
Okay, so I'm going to pick out the 30.6 265 grain bullet and you said maximum point blank range is 292 yards , but you are zeroing it at 249 yd, so between $249 yards 292 yd you're telling me that that bullet is dropping another 3 in and before that it's only rising another 3 in. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just questioning it because that just doesn't sound feasible. I get that the bowl is losing energy and push as far as feet per second behind it after it reaches out 250 yards.! It just hourly amazes me that it drops 3 inches in 50 yards after it reaches 249 yards. But thanks for a great video
Question, example: If you have a 6.5 prc rifle can you load down to produce velocitys like 6.5 CM or grendel in a safe matter. One rifle to do it all in a way.. ? Thank you great vids. kindest regards, Cheap and Broke Hunter.
Yes you can. Follow the recipes in the handloading manuals. You must be careful if you go too low with powder quantity and type, but with the correct, tried and true recipes you can get a 300 Win Mag. to shoot at less than 1,800 fps.
Throw the 270 in the trash?! A few weeks back I was looking at getting a new rifle in 6.5PRC. Well after a little research I was happy to buy a 270, instead. Not only is the 6.5PRC a barrel burner, but the ammo costs at least twice as much as a 270! Better still the PRC is essentially a glorified 270...the 6.5PRC does nothing more that the 270 except cost you more😂😂 So yes in 2024 I bought a 270 and at least at the range it is a tack driver!
Great video, infomative. Would like to have seen 280ai in the running.
Same as the 7MM Rem Mag, minus a gnat’s eyelash for all practical purposes. Two peas in a pod, essentially. I use both.
Oh, plus what Ron describes in his new 7MM book as the “meanest, baddest, biggest”…. just a bit more of everything above.
1000 ft/lbs of energy is needed on target to kill a deer…? Man, somebody ought to tell the handgun hunters that the cartridges they’ve been killing deer with are inadequate.
Hopefully some of the people that see these charts and data that call the 7mm Rem Mag and .30-06 outdated old Fudd cartridges will see just how versatile and effective they still are after all these years and even compared to new "wonder cartridges".
I do not see any load data out there for the 6.5 creed shooting 140gr bullets anywhere’s near 2800fps, not even 2700.
I noticed you left out God's cartridge, the 308 Win. Were you afraid it would outperform all of them. Then you would have to admit it is the greatest cartridge of all time. 😉
What was the top predator book Ron I couldn’t tell the title other than predator hunting. You didn’t put it in the description at all.
I have thought for a long time that point blank was 5 inches above and below point of aim???
Thoughts on the new 6mm MAX cartridge from SOLGW? May be the best AR15 round that’s Saami specked on the market..
U don't need much power...(for non dangerous game) Just pick one and do your job as a hunter....remember the 1st nation's killed it all with a 25lb recurve ....just sayin
What software do you use to figure out MPBR?
Why isn't the .308 in this comparison? How would it fit in here?
Mate mate mate
You left out the 6.8 Western 😢 🇦🇺
This is all great and it makes me think. I don't get the rule of thumb of 1000 ftps for deer. I have heard that poachers like using .22 mag and .17 HMR for deer because of noise, I don't know if it's true.
It's true, sir. 1000 foot pounds is just as arbitrary pick to encourage hunters to NOT use too light/small/slow bullets that require perfect placement for sure kills. Head shot and heart shot deer hit with a 22 Short are going to expire, but miss either target by a half inch and... Also, fast and more energetic bullets reach farther and drop less, making it easier to hit the important places.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors
Thanks for the response
I'm a .270, 30-06, and 9.3x64 fan myself. I'm not a long range shooter. When I lived in Indiana I used 12ga rifled slugs with great effect on Whitetails within 100 yards.
I just wish there were fewer choices and much much more availability and affordability. Just a few varmint cartridges, a few medium game cartridges, and a few heavy DG cartridges. Economy of scale, resource availability, and pricing would be better. We would be able to have what we need instead constantly seeing backordered or unavailable and waiting for years to get reloading components. I would be happy with only a 7x57, .280 rem, 308win, 30-06, for medium game. I vote we all get to together and pick 2 so I can buy ammo and components at will.
Zero at 249 yards. That’s 201 yards further than all the ranges in my area.
I want to hear this list with all copper bullets
Your 25-06...what is the rate of twist Ron?
I believe they are normally 10:1
I'm a 7rem mag man.
Editing suggestion: don’t keep switching back and forth forth in each load so much. Just have the data up and talk behind, much easier to absorb the numbers.
Man, hush this anit tailored for you. Let mr Ron do his own show.
You make a channel and well judge you
Exactly. Make your own channel in what you consider is the perfect format.
I guarantee people like you will still reply with negative comments
Ron. Stop holding your gun the way other people suggested that you do
And block these people that are ruining it for us
Fight....benGayxxx versus Lamebrownose...
The winner vs Durham cow...
@@joshsinglefooterhe was just making suggestion man no need to attack him
I’d like to know about the 7mm08
How bout the 260 Remington