Jimbo, I did the math on the weight of air per cubic foot given the temperature and boost pressures you showed. At a temperature of 180 and a boost pressure of 10psi over atmospheric, the weight of one cubic foot of air comes out to 0.104209638 pounds. At a temperature of95 and a boost pressure of 8 psi over atmospheric, the weight of one cubic foot of air comes out to 0.110439335 pounds. That is an increase in density of 5.978043%.
and since 8 psig is about 8+14.7 psi and 10 psig is about 10+14.7 psi you get a pressure difference of about 8% so if the difference of density is 5.9% as you said you get a "loss of 2.1%" but at that point the lrecision of the gauge comes in to play and it probably end up beeing the same mass of air moved around just at a better temp
My stage 1 srt4 made around 17~18psi of boost . I installed a bigger front mount air to air and boost was 15~16 psi. With an aftermarket wastegate actuator was able to gain that lost boost back
@@Antopc2I think you misunderstood the mass of air went up 6% the volume went down. That's good not a 2.1% loss. Engine hp is generally pretty close to lbs per min of air times 10. In our engine programs we've found you can get a bit better and a bit worse but it's never a huge difference so it's a great rule of thumb. He realized a 6% gain in density if it was moving let's say 10lbs per min or about 100hp and he saw a 6% gain in density regardless of boost pressure he should see about 106hp now. At his low boost levels the gains are just beginning as now he can turn it up once he has better control of fuel and boost but I still think a turbo added in compound would be the way to go next.
You should take more credit for this. You've situationally engineered a diesel generator engine into running an old honda insight. Supercharged and intercooled. And the engine didn't have either in it's intended application. And definitely wasn't in an old Honda hybrid.
Impress the ladies 😂, "oh my ex had one of those fake Honda insights", new boyfriend with a regular Honda insight" what do you mean?". "oh well it was an intercooled supercharged 3 cylinder Kubota diesel with a Saturn transmission." New boyfriend looks off in the distance knowing that she's settling for him
Jimbo, glad you saw my past comment on the GM IAC motor. From my experience with these, they seem to have about 256 steps, end to end, and they can handle a pulse duration of 10 ms, thus 100 steps per second. You could probably use the stock IAC valve as a boost regulator. The cone end fits into a hole about 3/8” in diameter in its stock configuration.
Jimbo, I’m a professional mechanic, and the mechanical side of your builds is familiar to me. I enjoy learning how you solve the problems that arise while stuffing these engines into your project cars. I am not nearly as familiar with coding and electrical automation and am fascinated by your knowledge and expertise. Keep up the good work, I love your channel.
Wow, thank you! I mentioned it a number of times in various videos , my background is in electronics code and robotics. The car stuff has always been a hobby. I'm a decent mechanic, but certainly not even close to a professional.
@@robotcantina8957 Pistons...oh see Garage 54`s youtube channel... there they make copper, Brass and Bronze pistons anyhoo. How about some 6+mm thick bronze capped pistons for higher temp ranges and oil jets to cool down the pistons...??
Wow Air Idle control valves, computer controls, This car is almost NASA quality build 😂 I have a suggestion for passing lane performance, a high pressure air tank with a rocket nozzle pointed backwards, a big red panic button, and a dump solenoid . 🎉
Hey robot cantina, about your camera vibration issue... Stiffening the mount is actually the opposite of what you want to be doing (*if you are using a pole mount that mounts the camera by jamming itself between the floor and ceiling of the car, yes you want that to be as stiff as possible, I am referring to how you mount your camera to that pole here). The stiffer the mount, the more vibration will get transferred from the body of the car (or the mounting pole) into the camera, leading to the awful vibration artifacts on video. The ideal would actually be to do the opposite, mounting the camera in some kind of shock mount to decouple it from the vibrations of the car (or mounting pole).
Cooler air is more dense, therefore you are still forcing the same volume of air into the engine but at a lower pressure and temperature. The MPG stayed the same because (I'm assuming here) the fuel adjustment was the same. I love your little projects and really look forward to seeing how your fuel adjustment setup works out.
Ah, you are ahead of me-that's what I realized last night. Adding the intercooler didn't force any more air into the engine; it just cooled it. All those little oxygen and nitrogen atoms were just bouncing around in there a little less vigorously. I wonder what would happen if Jimbo were to raise the boost pressure to the previous level with the intercooler in place and ran the same test. Probably just less smoke. But once he can adjust the amount of fuel he can inject on the fly, along with varying the pully sizes on the supercharger he can test all the relevant variables. One variable at a time! This is all so interesting, I kind of understand how turbocharging/supercharging works in a gasoline engine, it never occurred to me how diesel might be different.
Jimbo, its not about boost, its about manifold air density. Take a look at a few of Banks' videos on this topic. A lot of his killing a duramax and building a diesel monster truck videos go over this I think. The acceleration test should be interesting. Just remember PV=nRT.. if you increase temperature in a fixed volume system, pressure will increase.
You'd get a lot less of a pressure drop, and probably better performance with a water to air intercooler instead of an air to air setup on a supercharger. Especially with such a small setup. Bonus points if you can manage a Phenolic intercooler. Used to run a water to air phenolic intercooler on my supercharged project car. It was really effective.
They're also easy to fab. You can get a heater core for some vehicle that fits, and fab it into a mounting plate. For phenolic addition you just need to buy some sheets of phenolic, and fab them into the same hole/mounting shape (ideally on both intake and exit side). For the "radiator" part there are also plenty of easy options that you could source in the same way as the heater core to repurpose. Same with the pump. Lots of options there for electric pumps from repurposing too.
I'd say what hurt the fuel economy was the boost temperature. Let's keep in mind: When air is compressed, it becomes heated. And the hotter air becomes, the less oxygen it holds. So the more boost that's run, the more the IAT (Intake Air Temperature) is heated, unless a method of charge cooling is employed. And because air tends to create more pressure the hotter it gets... well, you get the picture. So seeing a drop in charge pressure due to the addition of charge cooling isn't a surprise. That said, the drop in pressure can allow a higher tune of boost to be employed, while retaining a reasonably cool charge temperature, which in-turn will allow more power to be produced or more complete fuel burning & lower EGTs, depending upon the amount of fuel enrichment seen in addition to the boost levels. Either way, we're looking at improved fuel efficiency, in one respect or another. 🤔
@@will7its Dodge: Ford did something right, COPY IT! Ford: GM did something stupid, COPY IT! GM: I'ma be my own worst enemy until I die. Toyota: We do everything right but read the market. Nissan: We build stuff too. International: We build stuff to last even if it kills us.
@@will7its I'd be impressed if a ford passed my 440 Dodge not butt hurt. As far as teasing goes I couldn't care less. The ford guys really don't have much room to talk crap about anyone.
You should consider a closed loop stepper motor. A closed loop motor has the position encoder built into the stepper driver attached to the back of the motor. This allows the driver to move the motor exactly the number of commanded steps even if the motor itself loses a few steps. Also there should be a way you could add a position encoder to the idle air controller you are using so the microcontroller knows where it is immediately at powerup.
As for the camera vibration it's a matter of the engine's vibrations and the camera's frame rate matching so it wobbles back and forth visually. Same thing happens with LEDs and cameras where you get flashing or blinking when filmed. Clamping the camera down more won't ever fix it, it will actually make it worse. You'd have to isolate the camera some how.
Like many other things in life, you have "rule of threes" or "iron triangle" situation. Sure, you didn't change performance or economy, but you increased longevity. Love this stuff btw, keep it up
The injector cycling on GM/Rochester TBI system is determined dynamically via comparison to fuel maps held in the management computer's PROM of the following inputs: Throttle Position Engine Load (manifold vacuum/boost) Inlet Air Temperature Engine Speed Exhaust Gas Oxygen Content Should one of these inputs become lost--due to sensor failure--the system then calculates best fuel enrichment via remaining functional inputs, and holds any changes made/learned via a "keep alive" RAM, which is only erased when battery voltage feed to it during "key off" moments is interrupted via either momentary removal of the computer's inline fuse or disconnection of the vehicle's negative battery terminal. Keeping this in mind, and having seen Arduino-managed fuel systems developed, I wouldn't doubt that with some time--and careful/skillful fuel mapping--that ideal/optimal fuel mapping can be achieved & retained for each instance of vehicle operation with the intended methods of actuation to be employed here. 🙂
I always look forward to your videos, Jimbo. We went from dropping a simple small diesel into a Honda to creating a cool project to some pretty technical things under the hood. What a project and a great learning experience! I am already thinking about the next project and everything we have learned from this current Honda. I love the data! Keep up the great work! This is the best series on UA-cam!
So, it looks like the intercooler, by itself, lowers the intake air temperature on a boosted motor, which is good for reliability (makes the engine less melty), but it does not by itself increase power or efficiency. It will, however, allow you to add more fuel, which should make more power with an added margin of safety, as the intake air temperature will already be cooler. And it looks cool. I look forward to the test. (Oh, be sure to add "fuel injected" to "supercharged, intercooled, three cylinder Kubota diesel," on your resume, as many folk may not know that all diesels are fuel injected.)
@@jmferenermigevery diesel engine uses direct injection because they use compression ignition. Rather than spark plugs igniting the fuel, the air is compressed to the ignition temperature of the fuel, and then the fuel is injected, burning as it mixes with the air.
@@Jay-kc2pm a lot of diesels use a prechamber with the glowplug and injector in it, among them Kubota as far as I know, it gives a very smooth running engine but a bit harder cold start, prechamber diesels have to preheat to start
The temp dropped, so the volume of air dropped as well, lowering the pressure. Measured as boost pressure . The same amount by weight of air was moved just smaller volume and thus lower pressure.
Erm… no. Volume of air is dictated by the volumetric efficiency of the engine and supercharger. Temp drops, so density increases as does mass. The pressure drop is a consequence of flow restriction.
Exactly, the fact that all the other data stayed the same but there was a 2psi drop in boost is the real clear verification that the same mass of air was used. Gail Banks did a real good job of explaining it in one of his many data geeking out videos, far better than I could explain.
This is simply brilliant! You may have already considered it, but I think at some point you should figure out a very common lightweight vehicle that people could buy for very cheap, say a late '90s to early 2000s Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla. They could pull out the motor and install a cheap harbor freight motor or something. You could sell specialty parts or simply just list out where people can buy everything. You could have various versions of whether someone would only commute locally to have more power or longer distances to have better efficiency. This would give young tinkerers that don't have much money a way to get on the road :)
Can you fit a MAF sensor somewhere before the supercharger so you can see the changes in airflow with different boost and air temps? It would help with your fuel rack adjustment tuning as well.
at 16:51 you have some empty bolt holes near the belt why not put in a belt tensioner for that purpose and for getting the belt away from the plastic piece its rubbing
719CC Supercharghed, LIQUID Intercooled, 3Cyl Kubota Diesel engine.... 'Liquid' being a 5 Litre (pump up) pressurised garden sprayer, filled with either ice and water, or cheap alcohol. Set up 'Bob Heath' rudimentary way - Garden sprayer in the cab, screen washer pipe through to engine bay, with spray nozzles spraying liquid onto the fins of the intercooler... 🤔🤣🤣🤣🤣 😎🇬🇧
This is the kind of content I love but seems so rare these days. I was just tuning the idle air control earlier on one of my cars with tuner studio, what a great application for one.
Phenomenal! Installing the intercooler, not destroying something on the Insight, bringing in some exclusive Rolls Royce like wood, and finally bringing this project to the next century by preparing to add some electronics to the so far 100% mechanical diesel engine. I can't wait to see the next episode.
Just wanted to leave another comment mentioning that I enjoy getting to follow along your development progress on small engine shenanigans, especially the electronic control methods and monitoring. Thank you for bringing us along.
Boost drop, in my opinion is due to the extra volume of the added intercooler. I see some folks saying its due to "cooler air", BUT you seen a drop in psi right off the bat, still in the shop (not yet driving around with the charged air being cooled from driving around). *Change My Mind* 😊
As Keven Banks says it's not about boost it's about air density. If you drop air temp you have to increase air density. And since boost is a measure of restriction not necessarily power addition. There for the reason you saw a drop in boost was because the air density increases and the motor was actually able to consume the air that was being forced into it. This means the real reason you didn't see a difference in fuel economy was because you had inadequate fuel to actually use the extra 2 psi of boost you consumed. So once you fix the fuel regulation on the motor you will see a change in fuel economy. What would really benefit this car would be a wideband for data collection of the actual AFR ratio.
@@Bangbug19 no, I'm saying that the overall pressure that the boost gauge is reading is the restriction in the intake pipe. This is the one weakness of a boost gauge is that they can be manipulated by air density so easily. Because as air gets hotter it expands and becomes more pressurized, resulting in a higher boost number. But that pressure is technically a pumping loss because the more pressurized the air becomes in the intake tube via heat, the harder it is for the motor to consume and get the most potential power out of combustion. The reason it dropped was not because the supercharger was actually making 10 psi of boost but rather it was making closer to 7 to 8 psi but the heat from pressurizing the air was causing thermal expansion, artificial raising the boost level to 10 psi. And the reason he couldn't see any difference in fuel consumption is because of the fuel limitation he is hitting. Once he can increase the fuel he will be able to use that extra 8 psi of boost to result in an actual performance gain. If he had an air/fuel ratio gauge I guarantee we would see the car running more and more lean as he keeps increasing the boost.
So he's not using 8 or 10 psi now. Amazing. If only he had a temp gauge too. If only he was adding an intercooler. If only he had run up the rack. If only he had a UA-cam channel like you have doing random experiments to only be told that boost is only a measure of restriction! Hopefully he can get back to no boost for no restriction so he can make all the power.
@@narwhalman ahh yes a scientific world where a measure of pressure differential is a bad thing. I guess thermodynamics have changed since I was in uni. Surprised everyone everywhere in all boost applications measure it still, all these idiots. They must be as old as me!
Might want to look at trinamic driver for the stepper motor the have a lot of nifty features like being able to tell when the motor is stalled for homing.
What may be happening with the pressure drop with the addition of the intercooler is added volume. Or, there is more space that the air has to occupy before making it to the intake. Think of it like trying to blow through a straw. And then blow the same amount through a garden hose. There is less pressure build up in the garden hose because it's larger. Or possibly it could be a mistepresentation of how much boost the gauge shows based on where your pressure sensor is. If it's after the intercooler and before the throttle, then the intercooler may be causing a restriction. If you checked the pressure before the intercooler it would verify both scenarios. Whether or not it's restriction or extra volume causing it. She's coming together quite nicely though. This content is refreshing and more informative compared to some others 👍
The lost boost with the intercooler was due to lower temps (cold air occupies less space and creates less pressure inside the same space), not any kind of restriction by the intercooler. That's what I have seen many times over and over again, so it's the norm, not an oddity. I said it before, think of the intercooler as a safety aid, not a HP aid. If you end up getting any extra ponies out of it then great, look at it as a bonus. Good luck and looking forward to newer automotive shenanigans. 😊👍
Boost losses should be due to flexible lines, as they dynamically change volume as boost pressure increases. In a perfect world, the Cantina would have an array of v- bands and stainless piping. Love this series, and your real world engineering solutions.
This is my inspiration to build a bug out mobile for ultra milage. My thoughts are a 2 stroke engine on a basket tricycle. Thanks for these regular uploads
So basically, an intercooler makes the air denser by cooling the air, letting you get more air for the same compression pressure. The air was fitting into a smaller space, but if you don't add more air and fuel then it's just running at a lower pressure for the same power.
Well sorry to say, I don’t have Fancy Smart comments, BUT for you I just want to say how much I enjoy watching your new additions to your modified 1st Gen. Insight (I have one and put many miles on it running errands.) Most of your additions I understand generally But goes Way over my head. Reminds me of my late Uncle that was a Chemical Engineer he built a Wooden Ribbed Full size Bi-Plane from scratch. Another Real Smarty Pants. Thanks again for your very enjoyable educational videos.
As if this series weren't good enough already....you're going and building a bespoke fuel control system and boost control system from scratch - coding and all. Mercy. While I can fairly competently diagnose and service this stuff in profession, there's no chance I could design and build it from the ground up. This is fantastic Jimbo!
In front of the radiator would also be fine for the intercooler, I don't think you're going to need to worry about heat soak unless you plan on driving this around on Venus in the summer at the equator. Also going back to coolant temps, that linear actuator and controller scheme for the fuel rack could 100% be used orifice to control coolant temp via a variable coolant flow orifice which is exactly what some very modern cars are using now, you'd be on the bleeding edge of technology!
Jimbo, you might have to put a boost gauge before the intercooler and see if it’s lower the boost because it’s cooling or it it’s a restriction. It’s it’s a restriction. The reason the fuel consumption stayed the same could be due to the engine being more efficient due to cooler charge air but the supercharger consuming more horsepower having to force air through the intercooler.
Man do i love the level of engineering and ingenuity it your vids jimbo .. being dissabled (just broke back wise)and a tinkerer myself , i love your vids bro and i am always anticipating sunday morning cantina 😅... and man that idle motor was a smart one on whoever thought that one ..mad respect .. anyways i will just ramble om with my adhd so i bid u adue jimbo and keep having fun bro .. ps my whole 400hp forged boosted miata runs off a arduino , so im super happy to see ya useing one on the build ... there are so cool what they can do and be made to make do ... anyways peace and love all keep it rad stay safe and build on... l8z all
Thanks for such great explanations. Have a good week of fabrication and experimentation. Hopefully the weather will cooperate this week for some acceleration data. Happy motoring.
Fantastic stuff again. The amount of detail you 'gloss over' on our behalf is remarkable. Well done... it's still the "same old, same old" but the Same Old is fascinating each time. What a wonderful channel you have... I've seen everything you've put out and I feel like this is the tinkering I would be doing (not as well, more blood) if I had the circumstances to do it. Thanks for the vicarious energy you give me!
As always another fantastic video. Id definitely keep the intercooler just because of keeping the temps low. Heat kills engines, and not like you are trying to build a power house anyway. This set up would be amazing in a older jeep or small 4x4 for off road and trail riding. Whenever I can finally get a old flat fender jeep I will 100% be coping this set up.
For the dump valve you could add a pedal potentiometer to your existing accelerator pedal and use it to control a throttle butterfly valve from a fuel injected gasoline engine. I often see them on eBay for cheap. From Mercedes and VW vehicles.
P1 x V1 = P2 x V2 is one of the gas laws. You start off with a volume at one pressure and temperature. Now reduce the temperature, and the volume will drop. As described by pokebass1 below, the volume of air (once cooled) is lower, hence the pressure drop across the cooler. Lots of other stuff, bit too much for this comment!
You could put an H pipe at the top of the intercooler with a flap on a thermostatic switch to bypass the intercooler until charge temps exceed whatever number proves to be max ideal. Might even be able to do some blending if you use a mechanical bi metal spring to actuate the flap progressively
For a future project. Could you make a variable fuel timing Gear. That way you can adjust the point to inject fuel into cylinder for it to burn the most, and increase the horse power as well as the fuel economy. Maybe use something like a cam phaser gear off a Chrysler Pentastar engine.
love your content. Sometimes, reinventing the wheel can be the right way to go, as you've shown us a few times. these parts that are already existing and easily obtained (cheap) are great resources for custom experimenters :)
Maybe next year you'll take the cars over to California for OpenSauce! Some of the minds there would not only love to look at these creatures you've created but also probably have some brilliant ideas or might even find inspiration from them. It's funny how once you modify a vehicle to suit your tastes it sort of feels like it takes on a personality or certain feeling, for better or for worse.
The intercooler adds resistance to the supercharger they always lower boost pressure but the gains by the cooler charge temps outweigh the 2PSi drop in pressure.
looking at the setup inside that IC i would guess half of your pressure drop is from internal restriction of the IC. although power wise you can still drive the SC harder although the harder it is driven the more benefit you will get from finding a IC with better end tanks.
The pressure drop across the intercooler is due to a more dense charge from the reduced temperature not airflow restriction. To re-gain manifold pressure. increase supercharger output. Gale Banks explains this in many videos at: www.youtube.com/@bankspower
Jimbo, I did the math on the weight of air per cubic foot given the temperature and boost pressures you showed. At a temperature of 180 and a boost pressure of 10psi over atmospheric, the weight of one cubic foot of air comes out to 0.104209638 pounds. At a temperature of95 and a boost pressure of 8 psi over atmospheric, the weight of one cubic foot of air comes out to 0.110439335 pounds. That is an increase in density of 5.978043%.
Thanks for doing the math. I was thinking the same thing was likely.
and since 8 psig is about 8+14.7 psi and 10 psig is about 10+14.7 psi
you get a pressure difference of about 8%
so if the difference of density is 5.9% as you said you get a "loss of 2.1%"
but at that point the lrecision of the gauge comes in to play and it probably end up beeing the same mass of air moved around just at a better temp
Dang it I should’ve checked the comments before doing the math out… at least I got essentially the same answer 👍
My stage 1 srt4 made around 17~18psi of boost . I installed a bigger front mount air to air and boost was 15~16 psi. With an aftermarket wastegate actuator was able to gain that lost boost back
@@Antopc2I think you misunderstood the mass of air went up 6% the volume went down. That's good not a 2.1% loss. Engine hp is generally pretty close to lbs per min of air times 10. In our engine programs we've found you can get a bit better and a bit worse but it's never a huge difference so it's a great rule of thumb. He realized a 6% gain in density if it was moving let's say 10lbs per min or about 100hp and he saw a 6% gain in density regardless of boost pressure he should see about 106hp now. At his low boost levels the gains are just beginning as now he can turn it up once he has better control of fuel and boost but I still think a turbo added in compound would be the way to go next.
You should take more credit for this. You've situationally engineered a diesel generator engine into running an old honda insight. Supercharged and intercooled. And the engine didn't have either in it's intended application. And definitely wasn't in an old Honda hybrid.
parts bin special
Impress the ladies 😂, "oh my ex had one of those fake Honda insights", new boyfriend with a regular Honda insight" what do you mean?". "oh well it was an intercooled supercharged 3 cylinder Kubota diesel with a Saturn transmission." New boyfriend looks off in the distance knowing that she's settling for him
Well, at least you'd know it's a fine candidate for the Musket Ball Run.😉
Jimbo, glad you saw my past comment on the GM IAC motor. From my experience with these, they seem to have about 256 steps, end to end, and they can handle a pulse duration of 10 ms, thus 100 steps per second. You could probably use the stock IAC valve as a boost regulator. The cone end fits into a hole about 3/8” in diameter in its stock configuration.
You can also do micro steps with the Arduino controller to get finer step rotations.
Hi, Thanks for the suggestion of the IAC motor. It looks like its going to be the perfect solution.
Jimbo, I’m a professional mechanic, and the mechanical side of your builds is familiar to me. I enjoy learning how you solve the problems that arise while stuffing these engines into your project cars. I am not nearly as familiar with coding and electrical automation and am fascinated by your knowledge and expertise. Keep up the good work, I love your channel.
Wow, thank you! I mentioned it a number of times in various videos , my background is in electronics code and robotics. The car stuff has always been a hobby. I'm a decent mechanic, but certainly not even close to a professional.
@@robotcantina8957 Pistons...oh see Garage 54`s youtube channel... there they make copper, Brass and Bronze pistons anyhoo. How about some 6+mm thick bronze capped pistons for higher temp ranges and oil jets to cool down the pistons...??
Wow Air Idle control valves, computer controls, This car is almost NASA quality build 😂 I have a suggestion for passing lane performance, a high pressure air tank with a rocket nozzle pointed backwards, a big red panic button, and a dump solenoid . 🎉
I'm picturing Wily Coyote driving that contraption....., cool!
@@fishing945 Meep meep!
So you are creating a system for closed loop fuel control. From scratch. Well done!
Hey robot cantina, about your camera vibration issue...
Stiffening the mount is actually the opposite of what you want to be doing (*if you are using a pole mount that mounts the camera by jamming itself between the floor and ceiling of the car, yes you want that to be as stiff as possible, I am referring to how you mount your camera to that pole here). The stiffer the mount, the more vibration will get transferred from the body of the car (or the mounting pole) into the camera, leading to the awful vibration artifacts on video. The ideal would actually be to do the opposite, mounting the camera in some kind of shock mount to decouple it from the vibrations of the car (or mounting pole).
A gimbal mount might help; not sure if there's a cheap-but-good one out there (just about all the gimbals I see tend to be quite pricey)
Loved the Rolls Royce comparison 🤣 get your grey poupon, we’re getting fancy!
You are becoming my favourite channel, I'm a retired Electrical Engineer, your work is most impressive.
Thanks!
Cooler air is more dense, therefore you are still forcing the same volume of air into the engine but at a lower pressure and temperature. The MPG stayed the same because (I'm assuming here) the fuel adjustment was the same. I love your little projects and really look forward to seeing how your fuel adjustment setup works out.
you are right, its just safer for the engine and less heat is a good thing even though it didnt change the MPG, it is an improvement.
@@NimaSomehdiesel running 10psi is not unsafe like it would be in a gasoline engine
Ah, you are ahead of me-that's what I realized last night. Adding the intercooler didn't force any more air into the engine; it just cooled it. All those little oxygen and nitrogen atoms were just bouncing around in there a little less vigorously. I wonder what would happen if Jimbo were to raise the boost pressure to the previous level with the intercooler in place and ran the same test. Probably just less smoke. But once he can adjust the amount of fuel he can inject on the fly, along with varying the pully sizes on the supercharger he can test all the relevant variables. One variable at a time!
This is all so interesting, I kind of understand how turbocharging/supercharging works in a gasoline engine, it never occurred to me how diesel might be different.
Jimbo, its not about boost, its about manifold air density. Take a look at a few of Banks' videos on this topic. A lot of his killing a duramax and building a diesel monster truck videos go over this I think. The acceleration test should be interesting.
Just remember PV=nRT.. if you increase temperature in a fixed volume system, pressure will increase.
This car never ceases to amaze. Enough horsepower to do the job, and serious economy
You'd get a lot less of a pressure drop, and probably better performance with a water to air intercooler instead of an air to air setup on a supercharger. Especially with such a small setup.
Bonus points if you can manage a Phenolic intercooler. Used to run a water to air phenolic intercooler on my supercharged project car. It was really effective.
They're also easy to fab. You can get a heater core for some vehicle that fits, and fab it into a mounting plate.
For phenolic addition you just need to buy some sheets of phenolic, and fab them into the same hole/mounting shape (ideally on both intake and exit side).
For the "radiator" part there are also plenty of easy options that you could source in the same way as the heater core to repurpose.
Same with the pump. Lots of options there for electric pumps from repurposing too.
You know it's going to be a great day, when you see the new Robot Cantina video.
I'd say what hurt the fuel economy was the boost temperature. Let's keep in mind: When air is compressed, it becomes heated. And the hotter air becomes, the less oxygen it holds. So the more boost that's run, the more the IAT (Intake Air Temperature) is heated, unless a method of charge cooling is employed. And because air tends to create more pressure the hotter it gets... well, you get the picture.
So seeing a drop in charge pressure due to the addition of charge cooling isn't a surprise. That said, the drop in pressure can allow a higher tune of boost to be employed, while retaining a reasonably cool charge temperature, which in-turn will allow more power to be produced or more complete fuel burning & lower EGTs, depending upon the amount of fuel enrichment seen in addition to the boost levels.
Either way, we're looking at improved fuel efficiency, in one respect or another. 🤔
"It's a Ford pretty much anything can pass one of those"
Definitely sounds like something I'd say. Ford guys are just too easy to poke fun at.
The Dodge boys get way more butt hurt when you do it to them though.....🤣
@@will7its
Dodge: Ford did something right, COPY IT!
Ford: GM did something stupid, COPY IT!
GM: I'ma be my own worst enemy until I die.
Toyota: We do everything right but read the market.
Nissan: We build stuff too.
International: We build stuff to last even if it kills us.
@@tcmtech7515 haha.....
@@will7its
I'd be impressed if a ford passed my 440 Dodge not butt hurt.
As far as teasing goes I couldn't care less. The ford guys really don't have much room to talk crap about anyone.
Full throttle in third gear in my van to go 60 up a hill.... powerful
You should consider a closed loop stepper motor. A closed loop motor has the position encoder built into the stepper driver attached to the back of the motor. This allows the driver to move the motor exactly the number of commanded steps even if the motor itself loses a few steps. Also there should be a way you could add a position encoder to the idle air controller you are using so the microcontroller knows where it is immediately at powerup.
As for the camera vibration it's a matter of the engine's vibrations and the camera's frame rate matching so it wobbles back and forth visually. Same thing happens with LEDs and cameras where you get flashing or blinking when filmed.
Clamping the camera down more won't ever fix it, it will actually make it worse. You'd have to isolate the camera some how.
Like many other things in life, you have "rule of threes" or "iron triangle" situation. Sure, you didn't change performance or economy, but you increased longevity.
Love this stuff btw, keep it up
The injector cycling on GM/Rochester TBI system is determined dynamically via comparison to fuel maps held in the management computer's PROM of the following inputs:
Throttle Position
Engine Load (manifold vacuum/boost)
Inlet Air Temperature
Engine Speed
Exhaust Gas Oxygen Content
Should one of these inputs become lost--due to sensor failure--the system then calculates
best fuel enrichment via remaining functional inputs, and holds any changes made/learned via a "keep alive" RAM, which is only erased when battery voltage feed to it during "key off" moments is interrupted via either momentary removal of the computer's inline fuse or disconnection of the vehicle's negative battery terminal.
Keeping this in mind, and having seen Arduino-managed fuel systems developed, I wouldn't doubt that with some time--and careful/skillful fuel mapping--that ideal/optimal fuel mapping can be achieved & retained for each instance of vehicle operation with the intended methods of actuation to be employed here. 🙂
I always look forward to your videos, Jimbo. We went from dropping a simple small diesel into a Honda to creating a cool project to some pretty technical things under the hood. What a project and a great learning experience! I am already thinking about the next project and everything we have learned from this current Honda. I love the data! Keep up the great work! This is the best series on UA-cam!
So, it looks like the intercooler, by itself, lowers the intake air temperature on a boosted motor, which is good for reliability (makes the engine less melty), but it does not by itself increase power or efficiency. It will, however, allow you to add more fuel, which should make more power with an added margin of safety, as the intake air temperature will already be cooler. And it looks cool. I look forward to the test. (Oh, be sure to add "fuel injected" to "supercharged, intercooled, three cylinder Kubota diesel," on your resume, as many folk may not know that all diesels are fuel injected.)
Might as well add “direct injected”
I thought those were indirect injected but I may be wrong 🤔
@@jmferenermigevery diesel engine uses direct injection because they use compression ignition.
Rather than spark plugs igniting the fuel, the air is compressed to the ignition temperature of the fuel, and then the fuel is injected, burning as it mixes with the air.
@@Jay-kc2pm a lot of diesels use a prechamber with the glowplug and injector in it, among them Kubota as far as I know, it gives a very smooth running engine but a bit harder cold start, prechamber diesels have to preheat to start
The temp dropped, so the volume of air dropped as well, lowering the pressure. Measured as boost pressure . The same amount by weight of air was moved just smaller volume and thus lower pressure.
Erm… no. Volume of air is dictated by the volumetric efficiency of the engine and supercharger. Temp drops, so density increases as does mass. The pressure drop is a consequence of flow restriction.
Exactly, the fact that all the other data stayed the same but there was a 2psi drop in boost is the real clear verification that the same mass of air was used. Gail Banks did a real good job of explaining it in one of his many data geeking out videos, far better than I could explain.
I love this channel. I’m not an engineer but I can’t stop watching engineering channels. Take something that not supposed to be and make it so.
Your work always impresses me. The ingenuity on these builds is so cool. Keep up the great work, Jimbo.
The issue with the vibrations isn't so much mounting rigidity as it is a lack of vibration damping.
I may have commented on this before, but with the electronically controlled blowoff valve, the stupidcharger is going to become a smart charger. 😎
True, but stupidcharger sounds better. I'll have to do some wordsmithing if all this stuff actually works.
hehe 😄
This is simply brilliant! You may have already considered it, but I think at some point you should figure out a very common lightweight vehicle that people could buy for very cheap, say a late '90s to early 2000s Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla. They could pull out the motor and install a cheap harbor freight motor or something. You could sell specialty parts or simply just list out where people can buy everything. You could have various versions of whether someone would only commute locally to have more power or longer distances to have better efficiency. This would give young tinkerers that don't have much money a way to get on the road :)
Hey Jimbo, all clear as mud. Easier for you to say "Through the power of dark magic all engine adjustments are made".
AWESOME JIMBO!!! Looking forward to the first 500 mile road trip!!!
I would love to see you try out some water methanol injection.
I think it would be interesting to see how it performs!
Love the series, btw ❤
LOVE YOUR VIDEOS Hello from NJ. Keep it technical love the Arduino and stepper drive!
Can you fit a MAF sensor somewhere before the supercharger so you can see the changes in airflow with different boost and air temps? It would help with your fuel rack adjustment tuning as well.
at 16:51 you have some empty bolt holes near the belt why not put in a belt tensioner for that purpose and for getting the belt away from the plastic piece its rubbing
The size of everything is deceiving on video. The smallest idler I could find was huge and caused even more problems.
719CC Supercharghed, LIQUID Intercooled, 3Cyl Kubota Diesel engine.... 'Liquid' being a 5 Litre (pump up) pressurised garden sprayer, filled with either ice and water, or cheap alcohol. Set up 'Bob Heath' rudimentary way - Garden sprayer in the cab, screen washer pipe through to engine bay, with spray nozzles spraying liquid onto the fins of the intercooler... 🤔🤣🤣🤣🤣
😎🇬🇧
Woodwork so fine you don't even know it's there. Classy.
Love your work, your solutions and the humor is next to nothing, definitely one of the shining lights in UA-cam land!
This is the kind of content I love but seems so rare these days. I was just tuning the idle air control earlier on one of my cars with tuner studio, what a great application for one.
Make the fuel control thingy have an idler for the belt. The 3d print looks just ripe for sliding a bearing over already.
Phenomenal!
Installing the intercooler, not destroying something on the Insight, bringing in some exclusive Rolls Royce like wood, and finally bringing this project to the next century by preparing to add some electronics to the so far 100% mechanical diesel engine.
I can't wait to see the next episode.
thanks for the new video jimbo, this is a better birthday gift than my truck giving me a spun bearing
Haply birthday!
Just wanted to leave another comment mentioning that I enjoy getting to follow along your development progress on small engine shenanigans, especially the electronic control methods and monitoring. Thank you for bringing us along.
"Rolls Royce" - You just jinxed the reliability. 🤔
Better knock wood! 😂
😀
Sir, a Rolls Royce never breaks down! It merely fails to proceed.
@nerd1000ify If you ever look up the horsepower rating of a Rolls-Royce, it says "sufficient."
Boost drop, in my opinion is due to the extra volume of the added intercooler. I see some folks saying its due to "cooler air", BUT you seen a drop in psi right off the bat, still in the shop (not yet driving around with the charged air being cooled from driving around). *Change My Mind* 😊
An intercooler will still work the same as a heatsink works in electronics
Nice to see that the "BoostGPT" project is coming along!
🐥
As Keven Banks says it's not about boost it's about air density. If you drop air temp you have to increase air density. And since boost is a measure of restriction not necessarily power addition. There for the reason you saw a drop in boost was because the air density increases and the motor was actually able to consume the air that was being forced into it. This means the real reason you didn't see a difference in fuel economy was because you had inadequate fuel to actually use the extra 2 psi of boost you consumed. So once you fix the fuel regulation on the motor you will see a change in fuel economy. What would really benefit this car would be a wideband for data collection of the actual AFR ratio.
So you're saying 10 psi won't go in but 8 psi will?
We're saying the same amount goes in by weight but at different pressure so there's the same same.
@@Bangbug19 no, I'm saying that the overall pressure that the boost gauge is reading is the restriction in the intake pipe. This is the one weakness of a boost gauge is that they can be manipulated by air density so easily. Because as air gets hotter it expands and becomes more pressurized, resulting in a higher boost number. But that pressure is technically a pumping loss because the more pressurized the air becomes in the intake tube via heat, the harder it is for the motor to consume and get the most potential power out of combustion. The reason it dropped was not because the supercharger was actually making 10 psi of boost but rather it was making closer to 7 to 8 psi but the heat from pressurizing the air was causing thermal expansion, artificial raising the boost level to 10 psi. And the reason he couldn't see any difference in fuel consumption is because of the fuel limitation he is hitting. Once he can increase the fuel he will be able to use that extra 8 psi of boost to result in an actual performance gain. If he had an air/fuel ratio gauge I guarantee we would see the car running more and more lean as he keeps increasing the boost.
So he's not using 8 or 10 psi now.
Amazing.
If only he had a temp gauge too.
If only he was adding an intercooler. If only he had run up the rack.
If only he had a UA-cam channel like you have doing random experiments to only be told that boost is only a measure of restriction! Hopefully he can get back to no boost for no restriction so he can make all the power.
@@Bangbug19 In a perfect world yes.
( And don't ask a scientific question if you don't want the scientific breakdown.)
@@narwhalman ahh yes a scientific world where a measure of pressure differential is a bad thing. I guess thermodynamics have changed since I was in uni. Surprised everyone everywhere in all boost applications measure it still, all these idiots. They must be as old as me!
Great work.
An other way to cool down the intake air is waterinjection.
May be a nice future experiment.
Might want to look at trinamic driver for the stepper motor the have a lot of nifty features like being able to tell when the motor is stalled for homing.
Notice we aren't privy to the road speed achieved while passing that Ford pickup.🤨
What may be happening with the pressure drop with the addition of the intercooler is added volume. Or, there is more space that the air has to occupy before making it to the intake. Think of it like trying to blow through a straw. And then blow the same amount through a garden hose. There is less pressure build up in the garden hose because it's larger.
Or possibly it could be a mistepresentation of how much boost the gauge shows based on where your pressure sensor is. If it's after the intercooler and before the throttle, then the intercooler may be causing a restriction. If you checked the pressure before the intercooler it would verify both scenarios. Whether or not it's restriction or extra volume causing it.
She's coming together quite nicely though. This content is refreshing and more informative compared to some others 👍
The lost boost with the intercooler was due to lower temps (cold air occupies less space and creates less pressure inside the same space), not any kind of restriction by the intercooler.
That's what I have seen many times over and over again, so it's the norm, not an oddity.
I said it before, think of the intercooler as a safety aid, not a HP aid. If you end up getting any extra ponies out of it then great, look at it as a bonus.
Good luck and looking forward to newer automotive shenanigans. 😊👍
Boost losses should be due to flexible lines, as they dynamically change volume as boost pressure increases. In a perfect world, the Cantina would have an array of v- bands and stainless piping. Love this series, and your real world engineering solutions.
the technology side of this build is super interesting and learning how all this stuff works is great!
Very cool. Intercooled, even!
This is my inspiration to build a bug out mobile for ultra milage. My thoughts are a 2 stroke engine on a basket tricycle. Thanks for these regular uploads
So basically, an intercooler makes the air denser by cooling the air, letting you get more air for the same compression pressure. The air was fitting into a smaller space, but if you don't add more air and fuel then it's just running at a lower pressure for the same power.
Gm IAC motors are very handy gadgets. Time to visit the junkyard or parts store for a pigtail(s). The rainy season isn't over yet.
Well sorry to say, I don’t have Fancy Smart comments, BUT for you I just want to say how much I enjoy watching your new additions to your modified 1st Gen. Insight (I have one and put many miles on it running errands.) Most of your additions I understand generally But goes Way over my head. Reminds me of my late Uncle that was a Chemical Engineer he built a Wooden Ribbed Full size Bi-Plane from scratch. Another Real Smarty Pants. Thanks again for your very enjoyable educational videos.
You can try to enable or disable OIS(stabilization) or change the framerate, I believe those two settings would help a lot
I love the automated compensation of fuel to air
As if this series weren't good enough already....you're going and building a bespoke fuel control system and boost control system from scratch - coding and all. Mercy. While I can fairly competently diagnose and service this stuff in profession, there's no chance I could design and build it from the ground up. This is fantastic Jimbo!
In front of the radiator would also be fine for the intercooler, I don't think you're going to need to worry about heat soak unless you plan on driving this around on Venus in the summer at the equator. Also going back to coolant temps, that linear actuator and controller scheme for the fuel rack could 100% be used orifice to control coolant temp via a variable coolant flow orifice which is exactly what some very modern cars are using now, you'd be on the bleeding edge of technology!
First cars and engines, now were getting into computers and microcontrollers? Jimbo. I love this channel man. You are awesome.
Jimbo, you might have to put a boost gauge before the intercooler and see if it’s lower the boost because it’s cooling or it it’s a restriction. It’s it’s a restriction. The reason the fuel consumption stayed the same could be due to the engine being more efficient due to cooler charge air but the supercharger consuming more horsepower having to force air through the intercooler.
Man do i love the level of engineering and ingenuity it your vids jimbo .. being dissabled (just broke back wise)and a tinkerer myself , i love your vids bro and i am always anticipating sunday morning cantina 😅... and man that idle motor was a smart one on whoever thought that one ..mad respect .. anyways i will just ramble om with my adhd so i bid u adue jimbo and keep having fun bro .. ps my whole 400hp forged boosted miata runs off a arduino , so im super happy to see ya useing one on the build ... there are so cool what they can do and be made to make do ... anyways peace and love all keep it rad stay safe and build on... l8z all
Thanks for such great explanations. Have a good week of fabrication and experimentation. Hopefully the weather will cooperate this week for some acceleration data. Happy motoring.
Fantastic stuff again. The amount of detail you 'gloss over' on our behalf is remarkable. Well done... it's still the "same old, same old" but the Same Old is fascinating each time. What a wonderful channel you have... I've seen everything you've put out and I feel like this is the tinkering I would be doing (not as well, more blood) if I had the circumstances to do it. Thanks for the vicarious energy you give me!
a light weight set up like this ... should appeal to many sensible people
Your computer contraption along with your ability to break it down to layman is quite impressive.
Supercharges intercooled three cylinder Kubota diesel with Rolls Royce inspired technology... hmmm
Brilliant engineering and application of Technology!
As always another fantastic video. Id definitely keep the intercooler just because of keeping the temps low. Heat kills engines, and not like you are trying to build a power house anyway. This set up would be amazing in a older jeep or small 4x4 for off road and trail riding. Whenever I can finally get a old flat fender jeep I will 100% be coping this set up.
I like it!
2x4 metric caption was very funny. Does the temp drop also play a role in the lower pressure not just a delta P? pv=nrt and all.
Sunday is Jimbo day. Thanks for the great entertainment. 👍
For the dump valve you could add a pedal potentiometer to your existing accelerator pedal and use it to control a throttle butterfly valve from a fuel injected gasoline engine. I often see them on eBay for cheap. From Mercedes and VW vehicles.
Thanks for continuing with the electronic controls Jimbo! That motor looks very promising, I wonder how much improvement you can squeeze out!
P1 x V1 = P2 x V2 is one of the gas laws. You start off with a volume at one pressure and temperature. Now reduce the temperature, and the volume will drop. As described by pokebass1 below, the volume of air (once cooled) is lower, hence the pressure drop across the cooler. Lots of other stuff, bit too much for this comment!
You are a very clever mammal 👍🥃🇦🇺
Friggin love it jimbo. Keep up the rad fusion of simple diesel and nerdy programming!
You could put an H pipe at the top of the intercooler with a flap on a thermostatic switch to bypass the intercooler until charge temps exceed whatever number proves to be max ideal. Might even be able to do some blending if you use a mechanical bi metal spring to actuate the flap progressively
YAY!!! Cantina Sunday! Grab your coffee!!!
Enjoyed the lesson on stepper motor operation. And the Ford joke.
For a future project. Could you make a variable fuel timing Gear. That way you can adjust the point to inject fuel into cylinder for it to burn the most, and increase the horse power as well as the fuel economy. Maybe use something like a cam phaser gear off a Chrysler Pentastar engine.
Good work Jimbo. I, we all, look forward to the next one.
Jimbo I’m really caught up in this project!!!
Thank you for continuing on with it!!!
love your content. Sometimes, reinventing the wheel can be the right way to go, as you've shown us a few times. these parts that are already existing and easily obtained (cheap) are great resources for custom experimenters :)
Thanks, Jimbo!
Thanks for the explanation uncle Jimbo! A pleasure as always.
I love the search for solutions techniques. Very fun stuff.
Great application of the AIC motors.
Put a simple heat shield on your exhaust. 1/2 stand off piece of sheet metal. Make a difference.
Maybe next year you'll take the cars over to California for OpenSauce! Some of the minds there would not only love to look at these creatures you've created but also probably have some brilliant ideas or might even find inspiration from them. It's funny how once you modify a vehicle to suit your tastes it sort of feels like it takes on a personality or certain feeling, for better or for worse.
The intercooler adds resistance to the supercharger they always lower boost pressure but the gains by the cooler charge temps outweigh the 2PSi drop in pressure.
looking at the setup inside that IC i would guess half of your pressure drop is from internal restriction of the IC. although power wise you can still drive the SC harder although the harder it is driven the more benefit you will get from finding a IC with better end tanks.
I love how youre controling the fuel. Very clever
The pressure drop across the intercooler is due to a more dense charge from the reduced temperature not airflow restriction. To re-gain manifold pressure. increase supercharger output. Gale Banks explains this in many videos at: www.youtube.com/@bankspower
fascinated to see how you calibrate the fuel rack limiter, ordering an idle air control motor so I can play along at home
Love Sundays. This is fricken cool.