HEMA fencing masks compared: Leon Paul Titan HEMA vs Gajardoni Kombat Air
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- Опубліковано 8 жов 2024
- Gajardoni Kombat Air Mask (with back of head protection) - 205€
www.gajardoni.c...
Leon Paul Titan X-Change HEMA mask (without back of head protection) - £193:
www.leonpaul.co...
Obviously the relative costs of these masks depends on exchange rates at any given time. However it is import to factor in the added cost of equipping the Leon Paul mask with a back of head protector, which makes it quite a bit more expensive.
I was kind of hoping he would just smash them together again and again untill one broke and the other one was crowned the winner
Now that's actually a fun idea!
Or test them with a rolling pin.
I thought he'd make them kiss.
Like the one guy with the bag of M&Ms
It might actually make the perfect mask, especially if you leave them alone for a while.
Just received min Kobat mask and, in case it hasn't been said, they do, now have the back strap cut into tow pieces with Velcro so you can adjust the fit.
Looks like they took your feedback seriously. Thank you.
This comment should be highlighted!
Love all of your videos. So considered and well thought-out. No HEMA school in my area but, at the age of nearly 62, I have started fencing again. Thanks for your inspiration.
Very nice! Thank you for this review, I think I would go for the Gajardoni Kombat Air myself :D
:)
Wtf metatron only 18 likes?
@@leonardopoli6206 Too few Noble Ones!
@@flashingsword indeed...
Best of all, they both double as sieves!
I'm not an fencer or sword fighter, but this made me want be it, so informative, and well made feedbacks on protective gear.
I've had an Allstar mask size L + SPES "unity" mask protector. The mask itself is very comfortable, and pretty durable, although if you spar using steel weapons I highly recommend you invest in a mask protector, or else you are going to end up with dents. Thats unavoidable. That being said, SPES unity protector keeps your mask perfectly intact. It fits the mask just fine, although if you want a perfect fit, go ahead and dish out some more money and go with one from allstar. They are crafted specifically for their mask so its a perfect fit. It offers great protection, In fact I've got punched in the back of my head with metal gauntlets, and I didnt even feel a thing.
Matt, Gajardoni makes every mask with and without the air pump (cheaper without).
Also there is a optional back protection around 30 euros that covers the hole back and goes around the mask
Gajardoni also do a mask for E20 more with external padding (so it doesn't affect the fit). Ive got one and it does an fantastic job dampening any impact. Im very pleased with it and its still a fiver cheaper than the Leon Paul.
I took a workmen's knee pad and added two velcro straps to attach it to the back of my PBT Warrior mask's elastic strap. The concave inner part contours to to back of the skull perfectly. It reaches from the top of the inside mask all the way down to below the base of the skull. The lateral edges fit inside with less than a cm gap on either side. The outer convex surface has a hard plastic shell for added protection.
The central ridge absolutely adds strength and impact resistance. No question. Toughness of carbon vs. stainless steel depends on the alloys and the heat treatment so impossible to say without testing.
Nice review, thanks.
My old vintage Leon Paul masks are still going strong after years of use, and my bibs never come up like that, I was surprised to see it stay up, seeing as my Leon paul bibs on the old models always return down and just crumple up a bit, but stay down still.
Thanks for this review, it has been fairly tough finding good Gajardoni mask reviews. Just ordered the non-air pump Kombat version. With some modifications to the back of head protector, I think it will be a good option.
One point about the Leon Paul mask is that it's meant to dent, as noted on their website. They went with a softer finish on the steel so it dents rather than fractures. A dent that can be hammered out is better than a shard of stainless steel wire in the face!
The raising bib issue can be addressed by having it inside the jacket collar instead of outside. Depends on how your jacket is sized though.
I've tried that and it restricts head movement far too much for my liking. For that to work, we'd need differently designed jackets.
The back of the neck strap is a remnant if LP's sport fencing products. The FIE said that LP mask where only held to the face by one system where as the FIE requires two, i.e. spring arm and elastic strap.
I have the Gajardoni mask, exaclty that model but it has velcro in the middle. I agree with everything you said, except for the air pump thing, I have been looking for a mask that would fit my small head for quite some time and I have to say I bought it mainly for the air pump, I ordered a S size mask and it fits perfectly (well, without the back of head protector at least, which I might have to replace) if I pump the mask a bit. I think it's perfectly fine if they leave it because if you're an odd size or have a very small head it removes those 2/3 cms of space that can make a difference between a sliding mask and a fitting mask
I have the Gajardoni Kombat Air Mask. Size medium, just a fantastic mask and fits me perfectly.
try turning the back of head protector around and run the straps with the snaps on the inside of the back of head horizontal elastic strap. The padding will then be on the outside of the mask.
Could you please do a video about close quarter trench combat with edged weapons during WW1? From the limited knowledge I have it seems to be a very interesting and diverse topic in regards to the evolution of tactics and weapons being used.
Shermingtan Totally seconding this
"I'm only gonna pick out what i see as the HEADLINES regarding this mask".
You just can't help yourself can you?
ONE VIDEO A DAY! This is a very good week
Leon Paul does have a back of head protector. I'm not sure if it's sold independently, but I got one as part of the set purchase, and it works fine. It may be the SPES pad, I can't tell if there is a problem with the sizing of the back of head pad, since I got a large mask.
The issue of the neck flap/bib is one of major concern to me. I recently took an epee class this Spring and during one bout I was up against one of our more experienced members. In that class, my favorite targets on the opposing fencer were the neck, upper chest and shoulders. However my opponent had a predictable engaging routine and after moving her epee aside I struck at her upper chest. Unfortunately my (blunt) point bounced off her collarbone, under the flap and up into her neck. Throat protection for me was largely mitigated by wearing a scarf that was primarily worn for dealing with sweat and abrasion. Subsequently when she had to face me again she had a panic attack and requested a different opponent.
A couple of questions concerning the back of head protection occured to me;
1) If the protecter was tapered, a bit like the back of some German sallets, would that solve the problem with it interfering with the shoulders?
2) If you were to design HEMA headgear from the ground up, rather than modifying existing fencing gear, would it be feasible and desirable to have a more helmet-like design, something like a cricket or American football helmet but with the bars replaced with a full mesh faceplate?
Yes and Yes :-)
scholagladiatoria Follow up question; given that you've worked with manufacturers in the past to make better gloves and sparring swords, when can we expect to see the Matt Easton HEMA helmet?
Can you just turn that back-of-head-protector the other way round?
Probably yes but the snap fasteners might end up poking you instead x)
Read it GAIARDONI, like the "J" is just an "I". It's the right italian pronunce.
They should look at some military helmets which provides a frame under the protection, it helps with cooling the mask and added protection.
I've only used a few masks with back of the head protection, and I hate it. Feels like a damn neck brace. Probably one of my favorite things about smallsword is not really needing one.
Maybe the elastic could be modified to be adjustable; cut it down the middle, sear/melt over the two ends and sew on some velcro on either end.
Also, if the back of head protector has a pocket for the foam, maybe a piece of plastic cut to shape could be inserted as well?
Simple hack for the metal back edge....type rubber edge trim into eBay......
Look at Leon Paul site, they are explaining why mesh can dent :P They say that u can just hammer it to shape again ;) It's better for mask to dent than mesh snaping, it's easier to dispose force when it can dent ;)
The thing is, lots of masks in HEMA are not taking dents or failing in any way. If you can buy a mask that does not dent, why buy a mask which does dent?
Keep in mind that BOTH masks are modified from Olympic fencing masks. Any denting is because they were not designed for HEMA....we don't hit with heavy weapons in Olympic fencing.
The only things LP did to make it "HEMA" was....nothing, really. Gajardoni actually paid attention to the specific needs of HEMA.
The ridge down the centerline of the mask is there to deflect hits...fencing rules require it to be 130 degrees or so. It is not a strengthening feature. ALL fencing masks have this design feature, with the exception of the ones with the lexan plate (which, thankfully, are no longer used).
The bibs feel stiff/tough because those are both FIE-level masks (which are required for international competitions)....they must withstand a penetrative force of 1600 Newtons. The mesh must withstand 25kg of force without the mesh admitting a broken blade.
God I really wish I could get a non-black HEMA mask. I know it isn't an official rule or anything, but I don't feel comfortable wearing a lot of black as a fencer. I feel like there is some kind of implication that that means I am really good or a master or something. Maybe I'm just imagining shit, but...eh, why not a few other colors?
You are imagining things. Black just makes you look cool and if you add a red stripe you move faster. Its basic science!
maybe because it is cheaper to produce all necessary equipment that way. to use varied dyes would only mean for the designers going out of their way to introduce color to their products, most likely increasing their production costs
Ork rules apply. Red makes you go faster, blue makes your sneakier and green makes you win by default.
There is this one guy in skallagrim's club that has a joker mask
Spray paint. Spray paint for dayz.
Q1. Do you prefer to be:
(a) fragrant but stabbed in the neck
(b) odorous but whole
Q2. Which is cooler:
(a) a silver mask
(b) a black mask
Q3. Do you prefer:
(a) Leon Paul
(b) Gajardoni
Q4. Do you see a pattern here?
With my mediocre sabre skills, what I really used to wish for was a back-of-the-arse protector to go with the canvas kecks.
Serious Q: how hampering are the cords in modern sport fencing? I can remember them (early 60s) exerting considerable drag even when standing still.
What if shortening the foam you instead reshaped it into a sort of ducktail, using a heat gun to form it? That way at least it would still fit in the original cover without any extra work. Maybe sweep the bottom corners up and away so that they would just clear the shoulder?
The rear elastic should be two pieces with a significant overlap of velcro at the centre, so that the tightness could be adjusted. DAMN! You beat me to it ;)
Strong, safe, affordable, and protects the whole head. Got it.
Knowing Matt's collabs on making new practice swords, I wonder if you might not seek out someone to make a purpose-built HEMA mask/helmet?
Maybe pommelstrikes that dented the mesh?
alot of information, but this is second video about Leon Paul fencing mask, and you still didnt show the padding... Besides that, leon Paul has full mask protector, that also covers back of the head.
Amazing review! I think if I have enough money someday I will go for the black one (I'm not trying to spell that companies name :D). What fencing jacket would you recommend?
Greetings from the birth country of the messer :)
you can buy a sepperate band , for back of mask for leon paul for a small price
Schola, I only have 1 question on the Leon Paul mask. You kept mentioning the bob folding up (and it does) but you also mentioned the strap on the back on the neck as well. Was the purpose of that strap to keep the bob down, thus negating the issue as long as you wear it?
Regarding the bib - would some kind of clip-on strap be suitable? Something where you essentially clip it onto the front of your outfit. It'd be an extra step to remove the helmet, but it'd keep your throat safe.
LP do sell a mask overlay with back of head protection, as part of their Titan range gear.
They do, but that is another extra cost (not a cheap one either!) and I personally don't like the design, as it is needlessly bulky and hot.
About the Leon Paul its enough that the metal has impurities for parts of it to lose strength and cave when hit so maybe it was a defective batch.
Matt, I apologize for the tangent, but I'm planning on attending your sabre workshop at Longpoint. What level of protective gear do you recommend? Do you want mask, jacket, etc or will basic workout clothes be fine?
it seems on the leon paul mask that strap on the back also keep that flap from coming up see if that is also what it is used for
your golden mask looked fairly practical
Couldn’t you put the mask on first, and then a high collard gambeson, so that the bib would be secured more on your chest by the gambeson so it doesn’t fold up?
What about the Leon Paul coaching mask? Would you recommend it over the Gajardoni, or the opposite? Since you have to buy a separate back of the head protector for it, the coaching mask is pretty much in the same price range as the Gajardoni.
I own a Leon Paul back of the head protector? Do they not make them anymore? It's great, very similar to the SPES one obviously.
He is probably referring to the protector which does not go over the mask, but is just the back piece. The one you are talking about is also, partially, a mask cover, and he stated that he does not like that type very much.
I did some euro to pound sterling calculations (with google), and the Gajardoni is just 21£ (25€) cheaper than the Leon Paul. Considering that both are in the 150-200 range (regardless of currency), I wouldn't call it much cheaper.
Also, it would be so great if the makers of these masks took this video into consideration...
When you consider that the Gajardoni includes the back of head protection it makes it about £50 cheaper. That's quite a lot in percentage terms.
scholagladiatoria
Oh, right. Forgot about that.
It makes sense now, thanks.
Hey I just watched a Lindybeige video about indian plated mail armour, and it came to my attention that there was no way a tulwar could slash through it. So could you please do a video about how Indian/Persian/Middle Eastern warriors , who typically used curved swords would fight each other (when there was armour involved) ?
Well first of all, an armored warrior would never be fighting with his sword if he could help it. It's a sidearm. In the Indo-Persian context an armored warrior was going to spend most of his time fighting with a powerful Bow or a lance. In the event that a Central Asian armored combatant was facing down an equivalent with sword and buckler, he would almost certainly have preferred to close to a grapple with a dagger. Sure enough, near Eastern martial arts have a lot of room for wrestling, just like contemporary HEMA sources.
Second, it's a hugely mistaken assumption to think that Indo-Persian/Middle-Eastern armored fighting men would be using a shamshir, tulwar, or other curved sword, especially in such an inappropriate context. Heavy straight swords were just as common, particularly for armored cavalrymen, alongside specialized fighting axes and of course - much more romanticized in the Near Eastern cultures than in Western Europe - Maces. There are quite a lot of passages in Iranian epics where the heroes are smashing their enemies (including dragons) with the mace.
I'm not saying armored warriors never carried a curved sword, but it was simply one sidearm of many when their lance or bow could not be used.
Is it maybe possible that the neck strap would prevent the bib from flapping up? Did you test that at some point?
I would cut that strap and sew a couple of Velcro pieces on it it. Seems like an evening's project. But great video!
What do you think about That Guy's Products' Mask? sure they look cool, but do you think they are practical/safe?
Does/will the black coating on the mesh chip off at all causing the metal to potentially rust?
The Gajardoni looks like it would benefit from having a cooling system.
Hey there! do you think this helmet could be used in medieval warfare with any safety?
I mean like in a real 14th century battle for instance...yeah time traveling of some sort involved but its just an idea...
would you be safe against a proper sharpen sword?
a warhammer, an axe? polearms?
or its just way to thin...¿
Rico Cori , there’s no way it would protect against thrusts from points such as spears, swords or arrows. Heavier percussive weapons such as a mace or axe would still cave your face in. I imagine it would protect against cuts to the face well enough for a time though
How does the gajardoni bib sit against the chest? Does it push the mask back and up when you move?
Hey Matt, you seem like a resourceful dude, why don't you just modify the Garjadoni elastic your self, You could buy a stretch elastic from a fabric shop then cut and sew in a piece to make it longer or you could even sew on your own Velcro
I can and I probably will. However I can only review products as they come out of the box and a product costing this much should not really require modification. Also, I run a club with about 100 members - I cannot tell them all to buy an expensive mask and modify it themselves :-)
I totally agree brother!
i just got a gajardoni, and my chin seems to slip easily and i hust my chin with the mesh. What's wtong ?
the problem you had with the bib flipping up would be fixed by just using the magnet strap...
can you attach the back of the head protector backwards? so it sits outside the elastic band?
Can you please do a video on Braveheart?
Are there fencing masks with a transparent plastic at eye level, instead of mesh? I'm asking because from my airsoft experience, i find looking through the mesh really hinders your vision.
Is this just a terrible idea? Would it just steam up? Would it not be strong enough?
Leon Paul make a range of them. Whether the plastic is strong enough for HEMA I'm not sure.
They used to be made. They don't last very well, though, and tend to fail unpredictably.
UrbanTarzan Duh I know that comment was about a year ago but, since I have a airsoft experience too I thought the same. I recently just started fencing and it seemed like there was a huge difference. Airsoft masks are much thicker and when you are fencing it's going to be lighter than on an airsoft field.
maybe we should do airsoft with fencing masks XD
what is that top sword on the rack behind you? It looks very interesting.
I believe it's a French officers sword with a 4 bar hilt. He did a video on it if I'm correct.
Silly question, but does that strap that you don't use that goes round the neck on the Leon Paul have any effect on the flipping up of the bib?
I suppose if done up tightly then it could help prevent it, yes.
It's attached so low that I don't think it has to be very tight, either.
Wait, 50fps? I didnt know youtube supported that.
Is the Gajardoni back of the head protection rigid?
No.
Is it possible to modify the Gajardoni mask to get the back of head protector to fit on the outside?
It is, but then it doesn't curved enough and the sides stick out in a silly way.
How long were you anticipating that head to head pun? Your lips got positively elfish when you said it, lol.
How about you put the back protector on the outside of the band NOT the inside JUST like you mentioned in the video(funny, I was commenting and then you said in the video put it in the outside ..lol) but yeah tru that.
So, I'm wondering, why are all the fencing masks made in this sort of chain fashion? Why can't it be something like Daft Punk-style full transparent visor or something?
How would you make it transparent? Either glass or some plastic, neither of which is strong enough to be safe when you are hit in the face with steel swords. Even if the plastic was strong enough not to break, it would get scratched and then after using it for a long time you wouldnt be able to see through it anymore, just like phone screens.
osd.dtic.mil/home/images/photos/2005-09/index/Hi-Res/050926-N-6751L-009.jpg
I don't think they expect those masks to be hit on a regular basis by sharp steel, it might protect against impact to save your life, but I don't think it's scratch proof, because it doesn't need to be scratch proof, it's not being hit with sharp things every other time it's used. But honestly I have no idea what that's made of so I can't say for sure.
Have you seen the new PBT Warrior mask? If you did what is your opinion ?
We have one PBT mask in our club and is it WAY too soft - it has dents like no other mask.
Is it the new one with the wider mesh and reinforced forehead?
I have the Leon Paul for 3 Years now and would not recommend it. There is no real guide how to place the inner padding around the head and I never found old how it really should be. Furthermore the bib is so strong that the Maske always shifts up - this is the biggest problem with the mask. Bib much much too stiff. The additional Leon/Paul back of the head protection overlay is the most movement hindering then. I must wear it very loose to come up to right Ochs. And then the triangle of death is very large.
I just watched the video in full. Looks like the bib up problem is an old problem. They put strong material inside and made it extremely stiff. My masks bib always pushed the mask up. Hand on my head to shift the mask down after a wild exchange has become my signature move number one...
They are all sold out (gadjadoni)
Can you not put the bib inside the jacket? Tuck it in?
Then you cannot turn or tilt the head properly.
what are your thoughts on allstar masks?
I have never had one, but I have heard that they are excellent.
@@scholagladiatoria I've just ordered one. thnx for your reaction!
I will never understand why people can't ever EVER just design a proper... well, anything. Everything beyond the simplest of things I've ever used as far as I know, has had some design issue that could have easily been dealt with.
i know your comment is pretty old at this time, but thats one question that i ask myself too all the time when i shop for anything. I mean Shopping can be so tedious and lengthy just because i have too look for the one product that has the least design flaws. Im often wondering if they even tested it beforehand. Its driving me nuts.
The Leon Paul mask is most likely a rip off anyway. Leo Paul writes, that the steel is 20% stronger than a "standard" mask. That strength is irrelevant. It needs to be stiffer steel to have any effect. Damage commonly occurs when the mesh is pushed open and not by the ripping of the steel wire.
Also the term "standard" is awful. They probably refer to 350 N masks. A FIE-certified mask has 1600N. That's equivalent to two regular persons standing on top of the mask with a small needle transmitting their gravitational force.
Therefore buying a common 1600N FIE mask with a "HEMA mask pad" (which is hidden in the More-section) is probably the better choice. And those are being sold by pretty much any sport fencing equipment producer like Leon Paul, Allstar and Pbt.
The physics nerd in me has to mention you’re not quite correct in the needle comment. Yes, a force of 1600N is approx the weight of two adults, but a Newton says nothing about the area over which that weight is distributed-that would be pressure which is force/area, N/m^2.
Fabric stiffness is typically tested by placing it on a steel plate that has a hole in it and then actuating a rod onto the fabric and through the hole (hole and rod are of standardized diameters). The amount of force required to push the fabric through the hole is measured, and thats the 1600N value you see listed for this mask
headlines. i geddit. :')
A significant improvement to you video's popularity would be to have more sparring in your videos, perhaps commentary from you on the sparing, or just sparring in the background while you explain the topic of the video. Clearly this doesn't apply for this video though.
I prefer the historical information and commentary to the sparing personally, but I did enjoy the most recent sparing video, as the camera angle was almost right.
weesh ful Yes but some of the time he can convey just as much information perhaps even more with sparring in the background while he's talking.
gah jah doni
Matt, why don't you wear real helmets ? Are they unsafe? Or what?
when you say real helmet do you mean historical helmets if so they either don't have full protection or limited vision. i'll use two helmets for example 1 the spangenhelm it's helm with just a nasal bar over the face it allows full vision but not full protection 2 the great has full protection but has small eye slots so vision is impaired also even though it has breaths breathing is also impaired
Yes, I meant historical authentic helmets. They may be inconvenient but they must work well . Stabs to the face may be dangerousI suppose but isn't combat inherently dangerous ? You could stipulate thrusts to the face are against the rules in mock combat or something to reduce the risk...but a "real' helmet would be so much better for a realistic experience. Is that just too dangerous ?
Fred Eagle
a lot of hema is meant to be unarmoured combat when they do armoured combat they do wear historical helmets
Gajardoni is more expensive than leon paul
Seriously, don't they test those things? So many mistakes, basic and more! This is simply unacceptable, people pay good money to rely on these masks for safety and mobility and they get... This crap??? No thank you.
Muahahahahahahhaahaa.. I have modded the LP with.. muahahahahahahahahaaaaaa... fear the mask.
I know absolutely nothing about fencing masks, but isn't it possible those with defect masks they could be pirate copies?
The chinese copy _anything_ these days, using lower quality materials...
Bruh why Does he look like like Vin Diesel's Crack addicted twin
The raising bib issue can be addressed by having it inside the jacket collar instead of outside. Depends on how your jacket is sized though.
Seems like that'd be very likely to restrict turning the head.
With the wider, thicker HEMA bib the fit is going to be more snug than with a regular three weapon mask. I can't turn my head at all if I stuff the bib down my AP jacket, for instance. A French manufacturer recently released a jacket with a purpose-built flap to overlap the bib, but I'd really prefer a solution to the neck issue that didn't look like an EOD suit. :/
As I said, depends on how the sizing works out for your set-up of jacket, mask and personal size. I find that the head turns fine, at least for longsword where the guards aren't too profiled, and the mask stays in place more securely with less risk of being displaced by the collar etc.