Italian Rapier vs Sports Epee | HEMA vs Sport fencing | Weapon Confrontations - part 1
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- Опубліковано 21 вер 2024
- These are Weapon Confrontations: Rapier vs Epee.
EPEE: Marta Sokół (Mordschlag Łódź)
RAPIER: Rafał Kalus (Akademia Szermierzy)
Cooperation: Akademia Szermierzy & Mordschlag Łódź
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"It's not the weapon, but the skill and tactics of the warrior who holds it"
- Spear has entered the room -
* Blood Bath Ensues *
When a Longsworder uses Halfswording techinques then he have not so a tiny chance !
A shield guy have often a big chance against a spear guy !
The did tested that, an sometimes were able to stand a chance :)
Spear is pure no skill weapon:)
@@joe125ful indeed, none of that barbaric, filthy "skill" and "experience" nonsense the sword people and the axe people and the knife people are always going on about. Spear is truly a pure weapon, a weapon of culture. One has only to stab, God will decide the victor, as is correct and just.
Honestly, I can't say i'm entirely happy with how the experiment was done. Not allowing cuts seems very unfair and limiting. Allowing cuts would get a much more accurate portrayal of the difference in styles and what would actually happen if these 2 were to fight. It's like the HEMA is fighting at half power.
not half power but yes, weakened
I'm surprised that the weapons don't score points according to their ability! Olympic epée beats GUN in a thrusting-only matchup.
@@thenathanr4243 that's good I'm going to use that
The rapier may not be known for being a good cutting weapon, but it is most certainly better than the epee which is nothing but thrusting. It's unfortunate really the ruleset, as the epee is a much more flexible weapon than a traditional rapier. Thrusting only definitely hurt the rapier. I think the ruleset should have been rapier allowed a "good" cut or thrust, epee thrust only.
@@Stargun-vj1uh yeah, its like if you put a boxer and a kickboxer against each other but didn't allow the kickboxer to kick.
Removing one sword's ability to wound/kill with cuts so another sword is not disadvantaged may be useful in training, but is not a fair representation of each tool's capabilities. Great job to these highly skilled fencers.
I felt in several of the clashes the rapier would have been more functional once cuts, grappling and even bashing the opponent in the face with the hand-guard were in range.
The epee is only superior in the initial thrust. Everything after that favors the rapier.
Not allowing cuts is a bit of a weird decision, handicapping a weapon from the getgo seems inconsistent with the premise. Nevertheless a great experiment and impressive fencing from both.
Edit: Answered, comes down to thrust priority in grading hits and general convention.
To evaluate the effectiveness of cuts we will have to take off the armour and give sharpened swords
Whereas thrust is thrust)
@@Garbid What are you even talking about?
@@Lohgoss small cut with rapier in close distance without big swing against normal thrust with epee right into the chest?
@@Garbid what ? This is not the only situation where cut could be useful
@@timhema5343 as i sow in duel cuts where just for points mostly. However thrust is much dangerous and needs less energy and goes very deep into the body. That's about not allowing cuts. However i would prefer cut on my hand or shoulder then a good trust into stomach or heart)
I was quite impressed by Marta's speed and parries.. Speed due to the lightweight epee, but parries due to a lot of training. I understand onty thrusts were allowed, but that also took away the Rapiers advantage in the cutting department, which the epee totally misses.
Yeah it was a weird choice if we comparing weapons effectiveness every hit is important. In a first minute of a fight it would be over as rapier cut her head open and she would lose a vision due to blood in her eyes. You can't compare weapon effectiveness by removing half of the weapon abilities with arbitrary rules.
@@FeniksGaming that's exactly right. My thoughts on that.
@@FeniksGaming Yeah, cutting is prevalent in Italian fencing too so I find it a bit weird that they limit it to thrusts only.
Destreza incorporates even more cuts into their work, moreso than Italian rapier. It's a really interesting style and sadly not covered a whole lot
Epee was also based on the rapier it just uses a different form of fencing which is French, who prioritizes the thrust because that's what the rapier does best
to play to touch eppe ligth weigth is a advantage in real figth is the opposite,more weight make more powerful trusth and slash,eppe is only to sport or nobility stupid honor games, rapier is a war weapon
I'm very impressed by Marta, who was shorter than Rafal and was using a shorter sword. That was a HUGE disadvantage she was fighting against and she did well!
Exactly! Precision and technique does matter, doesn't it? :)
She was absolutely at a huge advantage. Only counting thrusts and epee being so much lighter gave her the upper hand.
Smaller fencers are actually more deadly, they present less targets and can more easily defend their bodies than larger opponents.
@@Jetcom10 But lenth gives reach. So i guess long arms are good.
And without much option to circle him and work the angles, since his art would have much more training in lateral movement than hers!
the most interesting takeaway for me is:
1. in historical fencing duels both parties must have bled afterwards (at least)
2. reenactment goes only so far in points of realism since the fear of death is completely removed out of the equation
Both points are true, however, there's quite a few accounts of people in history not being afraid to die. And then dying.
I recall a statistic from a quantitative study of French duels, and something like a fifth of sword duels ended in the death of at least one of the combattants. I don't have the study though so take this data point with a grain of salt. Btw the death rates in duels actually went down considerably when gun duels were adopted.
Given the number of references to fencing scars I've seen in non-fiction literature, I assume that #1 is correct.
i remember reading about a fencing duel between 2 masters in epee.. they dueled (without masks) for hours without drawing blood and eventually stopped as one of them got a blister.... don't know if it is true or not though...
@@ThatHabsburgMapGuy Historian Jean-Claude Chesnais estimates duels in France in the early 19th century were deadly for at least one of the involved parties in one case out of three for civillians, and one out of four when it was amongst soldiers (mostly officers). (Histoire de la violence, Paris, Hachette, 1978, p. 126.).
He bases those claims on reports from the ministry of justice we still have today, and personal correspondance. (Duelling was illegal, so it was hush hush and hard to estimate. The reason for using epistolary reports is that the army kept the ministry of justice at bay when it came to managing that matter in the army).
Definitely handicapped the rapier by not allowing cuts.
but this rapier looks not much like a good cuter !
Then a broader Joachim Meyer rapier would maybe be better !
@@killerkraut9179 the very first hit in the duel was a cut to the forehead. yes it wouldn't a be a fight ending cut, but it surely would open the skin and cause bleeding, which could be extremely hindering if unlucky - blood running into the eye(s).
you don't necessarily need to cut very deep, to cause issues to your opponent - tendons and ligaments, even when cut only lightly, can cause massive problems.
limiting the rapier to thrusts only, is definitely a handicap to it, without giving the epee a similar handicap, which seems rather weird if the goal is to test two different weapons with different techniques against each other.
@@_claymore Depends on the Rapier some can relativly descent cut some cant do cuts
!
Clothing culd be a factor
If you are lucky to make week cu efective but often do they closely to nothing ,like seen by Holmgang hamburg !
To be fatal or manstopping you maybe need more cutting power !
If you make a sparring with rapier against a real cutting weapon rapier cuts should score less !
@@killerkraut9179 Cut to head or neck, while maybe not fatal per se would wound person enough that stabbing would be very easy. Nobody sane would try rapier fight with just swimming style eye protection and risk hit in a head from blunt sword which is, by the way, poor cutter. Ask yourself, why?
@@radivojevasiljevic3145 I think Holmgang Hamburg risk maybe much ?
Really good video! Normally these comparisons are done by people without experience, but this was fascinating and had a lot of nice exchanges!
that annoys me as well. once saw one about rapier vs kendo, however the rapier guy had full protective gear and steel and the kendo had no gear, not even hand protection and a bamboo shinai. how is that even comparable?! the rapier fencer was definitely going to hold back not to injure the kendo fencer so he was not going to go all out and be more passive
@@badrequest5596 Yes, generally the competitors need to switch gear. I wear steel gear and use MOF weapon, they use MOF gear and use steel weapon etc. You wear protection for the weapon you face, not the weapon you wield.
@@cosc_HEMA that's my point. in the example i mentioned, guy facing steel had NO protection, guy facing bamboo shinai had enough protection for steel, it was completely reversed
No cuts allowed, no circle moving, almost no binding from the rapier... All around the fight was very much olympic style, while I'd like to see some Verdadera Destreza vs the historical counterpart of the epee.
Nonetheless, it was an interesting fight to see.
The Italian rapier systems don't usually circle around but fence linear most of the time, and I'm sure the rapier guy is using Italian techniques since he used Inquartata alot
@@jaketheasianguy3307 That's true, and I gotta say that as a good Spanish guy, I enjoy Verdadera Destreza way more that Italian Inquarta. More repertory with the blade, more opening angles, more enemy blade control... It would have gone much better.
Good luck trying to bind an epee, the epee doesnt want to bind the rapier because it has no leverage against it, and it also is much faster in the disengage so the rapier will always be chasing it around if it wants to bind. And like the other guy said, Italian rapier is pretty linear, so no circling doesn't really matter there either
Isnt destreza mcdojo from the epoque? :P
@@Druid_Ignacy what is mcdojo in destreza do you think: allowing cuts, non-linear fencing, trying not to get doubles…?
This was pretty interesting, I’ve always wondered how a match would work out. I was surprised at how many parries were possible with an epee against a rapier. The rapier had advantages in reach and using the off hand to parry, which made it difficult to thrust on the inside. Though at the same time it’s possible to work around those with proper timing + feints. Interested to see further videos.
Yeah an epee is still steel so it parties fine. The thing that struck me last I did this was just how much faster you can disengage with an epee.
Epee can parry a thrust. Parry a cut would show the difference weight makes.
Beautiful!
To be fair, the rapier doesn't inherently allow for more off-hand parrying than the epee, it's just that those sorts of techniques have become significantly less prominent over the years.
I found it interesting that the flexibility of the sport fencing "weapon" was actually an advantage. I would have assumed it was a disadvantage, but it visibly made it more difficult for the rapier user to beat the epee away, while the epee user was able to beat the rapier away more easily due to the rapier's rigidity.
HEMA rapier fencers always look like 80 percent of their technique is improvised rather than meticulously reconstructed from historical texts.
This looks to be a great series. Enjoyed this one a lot. Really interested to see epee/smallsword vs longsword.
it was interesting to see how she was really dominating the opening half with lightning fast strikes, but it seems like the rapier adjusted to her pace in the second half well. this was pretty cool!
This is one of the most underappreciated channels on this platform.
As a retired fencing coach, I found this fascinating! The epee being shorter weapon is at a disadvantage in reach, however the longer Rapier is slightly slower in movement. Thus, the only logical effective tactic, is to let the Rapier come pass you, as the expert epeeist was doing. However, the allowable use of the hand for blocking will always nullify this tactic. I feel that without the ability to block the epee, the epee should come out on top, if you can deflect the initial rapier thrust, or sidestep it, and allow the target to come to you, as was demonstrated by the epeeist! In a normal rapier and dagger or rapier and glove match, they would be equal, as both would have no advantage or disadvantage. Great video! well done
HEMA is simulated combat first then a sport. Hence why it is allowed. If you’re fighting for your life against someone with a Smallsword, of course you will use your offhand to deflect a thrust. Hence why it is perfectly legal. Sports fencing is a sport first then simulated combat. So considering this is a HEMA channel/scenario, the “what if” Epee rules scenario in your comment isn’t really relevant. If the Epee fencer also used her offhand though, now that would be a good move. A cut on the hand is preferable to taking a thrust to the head, torso or neck!
Under more typical rapier rules you have to be careful when letting the rapier thrust past you. Rapiers aren't primarily cutting weapons, but they still cut well enough to slash a neck or take a hand so just getting past the point doesn't necessarily make you safe. Especially if you then miss your own thrust, you may find a rapier fencer continuing to close instead of backing off, and trying to stay inside the epee's point and leverage the cutting ability of the rapier.
Despite all possible changes in the method and points for discussion in this study, I simply love that you're doing this, especially involving top class fencers. Well done guys- I'm devouring the material eagerly!! :) What a great series!
While I agree with the criticisms of the cutting rules, I really enjoyed the fights. The dynamic between Marta, extremely agile and possessing extremely well honed instincts and dexterity, and Rafal, a bit slower as a result of his different weapon and training but very calculating in his every move, was very interesting to see play out. Combining the two results, I think in a true fight it would generally come down to whether the rapier could land the critical blow quickly, because after that first move it loses the range and precision advantage to the epee's superior speed in tight quarters.
I love that this is finally a HEMA-centered video that doesn't look down on Olympic fencing. I was also quite impressed with the skill levels of the fencers. As an epeeist myself, the rapier's off-hand parries and grabs looked really weird for me (and, in pure rapier, wouldn't grabbing the blade be a bad idea because of the cutting edge?) but there were some fairly solid fleches and I like that Rafal fought on technique instead of strength for the most part. Very good video.
Yes, that's a valid point. The answer to that, like most things on this matter, is: "it depends".
On rapier vs rapier, hand parries and grabs are generally OK depending on the situation. Usually you want to grab the forte of the blade (sometimes it wasn't sharpened) or, preferably, the hilt. But you want to avoid grabbing the foible, which was usually sharpened. Grabbing during a cut is a NO NO. Hand parrying a thrust however, doesn't have enough friction to cut a leather glove, and if it does it's not debilitating enough to stop you from killing the opponent right after. That's why you use your hand close to your face, or torso, having it available in case you need to deflect the blade or disarm the opponent.
On rapier/smallsword vs smallsword, hand parries and grabs are even better. Many smallswords weren't sharpened, given that it's purely a thrusting weapon. Sometimes it was sharpened specifically to avoid hand grabs, but its cutting power was still very weak and making an edge would compromise its durability. In a situation where a smallsword wasn't sharpened, there was no downside to grabbing and parrying the blade with the off-hand.
As long as the blade doesn't slide while you're grabbing it, it can't cut you.
@@18ps3anos The epee is not a real weapon. I saw a guy make a sharp epee before and put it on a thrusting test. He said the epee's blade is extremely weak and likely would be bent or completely broken when used on human targets. It could deal damage but the damage was nowhere near enough to take down your enemy even if you hit his vital parts (Chest, face, stomach, legs, hands, arms, fingers) so there is a fat chance that your opponent would have no problem in retaliating you and walking away alive even when you managed to stab him right in the chest.
@@shadowmancy9183 Unless you catch it barehands and you press the blade against your skin. Skin is soft, doesn't hold well againt a sharp edge.
@@indigard2747 that's why I used the smallsword as an example, which is what the sport fencing epee is inspired by. The smallsword, or the french "epee de combat" were deadly weapons.
Genialnie zrobiony materiał!
Widać że się Pan inspiruje
They should make a video game out of this don’t you think?
@@ronytheronin7439 👀
The rapier guy really loves using Inquartata
The production quality of this video was superb. A really intriguing match up of systems.
I know there has been some comments on the use of cuts, perhaps this could be added as an additional scoring category but I would not let that dishearten you at all.
Fantastic! We hope to see more!
So happy to have more content to watch from you folks! I've seen series like this on UA-cam but I feel like there's more legitimacy from your series, maybe because you explain properly what's going on and both fighters get to weigh in as well. Solid video!
There's been an error in the counting of the hits, at minute 4:16, the epee fencer's olympic score went from 5 to 7. Either way, very good video.
Impressive fencing skills!!
it's cool to see how a modern epee parries against a rapier recreation. very cool. The rapier fighter in this video, I believe, struggled with judgement of distance and closing the center line in this bout. That said, this was two fighters of a certain level of skill and it was very cool to see the matchup presented like this.
Film trzyma w napięciu jak dobre kino. Bardzo uczciwa prezentacja.
It's really cool to see a pro olympic fender fight a rapier :) rapier definitely had advantage in length, but disadvantage in speed.
Interesting concept and well executed. And great production quality of course.
Of course some things could be made or designed differently but all such experiments must be contained in some ways and I think you have chosen a decent one.
Hi Angel! 👋
@@cosc_HEMA Hi :)
This was wonderful to watch.
Thank You!!!
This is sort of why sports fencing is so uninteresting to me, just touch your opponent and you win.
Also using only thrusts? Why?
If you remove aspects of one weapon but not the other, the more specialized weapon will have a non-realistic advantage. Because the sacrifices made to gain that specialization will come at no cost.
All that said tho Marta made some amazing parries, they were both great athletes. I just don't like the premise of the event.
>using only thrusts? Why?
this was determined by history
@@moXnoX1 Rapiers can cut, Epee's can not.
@@5chr4pn3ll epee is an emulation of the later weapon which is only thrusting. Also in sport foil and sabre it is not who hits first wins.
upd. in this "comparison" it is strange, i agree. Though the whole idea is strange imo.
@@moXnoX1 That is what I'm saying. One of these, the rapier, can cut but is not allowed to; which is creating a false comparison between the two. So how was this comparison: "Determined by history"?
@@5chr4pn3ll misunderstood your first comment, thought you said that regarding sport(Olympic) fencing as class.
This was like watching how a rapier would affect your performance in an olympic fencing game. Next lets see how an epee would affect your performance in a no hold barred HEMA fight.
loved this. although I would like more to see the destreza vs epee
One thing most folks likely didn't know is the Epee user has the typical pistol grip. Which actually allows her to react quicker with thrusts and parries. this was made for the sport as it lacks flexibility to switch from thrust to cut. And allows the hand to be shielded better. But hey it was made to be the best in the modern sport not combat.
The difference in weapon length was compounded by the difference in height between fighters giving rapier an even greater reach. But of course this would have happened historically as well.
Big fan of your work, always fantastic and very high quality. I am enjoying these competitive and exciting reviews, they are different to your gorgeous reenactment short films. Keep up the good work
That was awesome!
I noted that within 5 min Marta has started to include left hand action in her fighting - has she done HEMA as well, or was that spontaneous adaption mid-fight?
Range doesn't seem to be as big an issue as I thought. Maybe that is between high level fighters and range is much more decisive in a fight between beginners...?
Hey :) Actually, I have been inactive as a competitive sport fencer for more than two years now. Now I'm doing HEMA, rapier & dagger and longsword to be specific :))
And also I was trying not to use my left hand since I thought that this wouldn't necessarily reflect how "pure-blood" sport fencers would act in such circumstances, but then, in close combat it just seemed to make sense that anyone would use the other hand
@@martasoko7349 you were really fast and skilled! This was a great fight and made me want to try fencing
What this has taught me about winning in Rapier:
You need four things to win a rapier exchange; distance, timing, arm strength, and experience in theft
I've been a fan of swordsmanship since I first found out about Zorro when I was young. This duel was interesting to watch!
Keep it up! New subscriber here!
Wow! I was hyped all the fight, thanks to all of you!
Both the rapier and the epee were amazing!
Why does the rapier is not allowed to cut? Isn’t it make things pointless when you do that?
Awesome video, love the editing and quick flow. Can't wait for next episode.
To be fair, since grabbing the opponents blade is prohibited in Olympic fencing, I wouldn't count the hits in the Olympic counter, the same way unsafe hits aren't counted in HEMA.
The fight itself was cool af. I really felt the weight of the rapier not budging on most of the epee beating. She really struggled with controlling his blade, and was in constant and immediate danger.
He, on the other hand wasn't as agile and responsive as she was, and was very tanky most of the time.
In the 1980s, as a student in Wales, my fencing coach used to tell us this story of a epee duel in London in the 1950s which he attended :) In those days, they used steam epees which had a jagged point to it. The idea was that during competitions, the jagged point would catch on the fencer's uniform, leaving tear on it, thus making it easy for scoring points purposes. During this duel, which started off as somewhat of a joke, both duellist were bare chested, and only wore masks to protect the face. The idea was that the person who drew first blood was the winner. Unfortunately, after both parties started taking it seriously and cutting each other up, my coach and his friends had to man wrestle them down to stop the duel as it was only a step away from really serious injuries.
I've always wanted to see this happen, really cool you guys did it! If the rapier had been allowed to cut, this may have been a different story :p Will you ever do a comparison between polish and Olympic saber?
Sounds good but the Olympic sabre can be easily broken :)
@@rafakalus9649 yes, that is an unfortunate side effect. I wonder if there's any kind of middleweight gym saber from the Victorian period that is thick enough to stand up to a modern HEMA steel saber but light enough an Olympic fencer could still use it?
Or alternatively, I suppose you could give both fencers the same weapon and see how they do trying to apply their technique to a foreign weapon. I imagine a polish sabreur would have an easier time with an Olympic saber than the Olympic fencer with a Polish.
I think it would be more interesting to adopt sport saber fencer to a heavier military saber and spar against someone trained just in polish saber.
And I would like to see a comparision where the longer and heavier fencer wields the shorter weapon.
@@rafakalus9649 wrong
Супер формат! Мое восхищение!! Вы лучшие
Is a sport epee historically valid? meaning is its composition similar to a supposed "war epee" that would actually be used in combat or a duel. if not this is like a gun fight between a 1911 and an air-soft gun.
I know it derives from an early 20th century French dueling sword meant for "first blood" duels, but I don't know how close it is.
Having used l'épée ( in my country it just mean Sword ) i can say i was waiting for a video like this.
Love these mixed system showcases. Very clear rulesets and point system. Great video all around and great fencers!
As a former NCAA div 1 fencer, this was so cathartic.
doesn't restrict the rapier to only thrusts handicap the rapier? A true comparison would allow the rapier to make cuts too, and change how the epee fought. In a real fight, the rapier would not limit to specific style of strikes, correct?
depends. in polish rulesets we focus mostly on thrusting rapiers to recreate more Fabris/ Alfieri. These masters were not advicing cuts at all - using weapons from their styles cut is slow, exposing, shorter than thrust, less deadly and not safe for the cutter. So we either fece without cuts to recreate their techniques more or use cutsscored less than thrusts in case of double. With this sort of rapier, cuts would not wound also because of weapoin construction. Either way, it doesnt not handicap the weaponat all in this convention.
@@wielkiolkus cuts can be very quick in reposting. While cuts may not be default choice for rapier (which rapier by the way?), ignoring opportunities to cut is pure waste.
I have to admit I don't quite understand how cuts are not safe for a cutter.
@@wielkiolkus then why didn't they say that in the beginning so you didn't have to awnswer all these comments, it's not pootube it's UA-cam. Out of all the people making the world a worse place in this comment section how many know what's is like to eat your sister because the Russian army somehow managed break the line then be pushed pack enough to go through six years of grain?
@@wielkiolkus Also if your only going to thrust why not use a long pole with a pont on it.
@@radivojevasiljevic3145 hardly a duelling weapon. Also we wanted a video about rapier, not long pole
I remember instinctively grabbing onto a friend's epee when he lunged. Nice to see that that's allowed in HEMA.
Good experiment, but not logical. The damage that a rapier can do to a body cannot he compared with that of a sports tool.
They are comparing styles and techniques for each weapon. Sport epee is designed exactly to avoid damage to the opponent so.. opponent lives another day. It's a sport.
rapier here is also safe sports simulator. we are not savages fighting with sharps, both weapons are sporty simualtors here :-)
This is a really good format!
No, i to jest jakieś sensowne hema vs sportówa, a nie szpadzista w lekkim ubranku przeciwko długiemu mieczowi kontra hemowiec bez spodni :D Super miniatura. Może jak to PZSZ zobaczy to się wreszcie dogadamy i będziemy prawnie sportem? :D
What a delight to watch! Dziekuje bardzo!
Weapon vs weapon, but you handicap one weapon by not allowing its cuts?
Counterintuitive, and completely destructive of the "safe hit to first blood" idea of the first duel.
But rapiers weren't famous for their fatal cleaving capacity, so SOMEWHAT less relevant in the "fatal intention" duel.
Apparently it's supposed to mimic the worst rapier guy who only used thrusts even though the guy might be using Italian which makes it worse, but I dunno man I only read the comments
Excellent video! I do think head cuts with the rapier should have counted as a touch though. I was also surprised that the epee was able to bind and parry the rapier better than I expected.
Превосходное соревнование! Благодарю за прекрасное зрелище! Марта - великолепна! С уважением!
"Hey, your sword is a bit heavier and slower due to its ability to cut instead of strictly thrusting. Not cuts allowed. MAY THE BEST WEAPON WIN"
? ? ?
Both are amazing! Marta at 23 years old has a bright future. The Epee is too flimsy in my opionion.
In my opinion this was and/or is a really good educational and fun video.👍
gun vs knife but shooting is not allowed
I ran a similar experiment several years ago and found that the epee parries well enough and that it's relative speed was a tremendous advantage.
Interesting to see how sports fencing's gait is quite a lot nimbler with a "bounce", similar to how boxers' bounce is executed, while HEMA has more of a planted footing.
This allows the Sports fencer to get a lot of hits in during the first match due to her ability to beat the rapier off-line and do a follow up thrust immediately after. The HEMA rapier fencer had to play defensive and rely more on off-hand grappling as he was not able to keep up with the epee's speed.
HOWEVER, come the second round, I noticed the HEMA practitioner learned his lesson: he no longer offered his blade straight towards his opponent so that the epee can no longer beat his rapier aside. This time, he made sure to always point it down, point it up, and even support his blade with his off hand so that his point cannot be easily manipulated by the epee, and so that he can bring his point in-line when he needs to.
As far as I can see here, sports fencing beats HEMA in terms of pure speed of strikes and parris, but HEMA beats epee in terms of flexibility with their intentional off-line blade blocks and hand grabs.
Really depends on the context why the techniques look that way as well. HEMA manuscripts from Renaissance or Medieval time don't usually cover sport dueling in a flat and secure surface like a gym floor. Being "flat footed" will create a strong structure for fighting on almost every kind of terrain
Also let's not forget the part where both of these contestants are rapier experts. The epee fencer is a rapier champion herself so she understand how to exploit the weakness of the weapon better than common Olympic fencers
@@jaketheasianguy3307 Yup. I know they're both skilled fighters with lots of skill and knowledge overlap. Just commenting on the gait they adapt when representing each style.
Great point about the uneven terrain. I didn't think of that. Boxers and sports athletes often have controlled and neat floors so they can afford to do all that fancy continuous movement whereas you can't really do that reliably on loose or uneven soil
@@jaketheasianguy3307 This is very interesting. I noticed that she fenced "mixed" style a bit. Pure sport fencers will calculate the distance very precisely and attack the wrist or whatever is the closest target at the moment. They will also set up false tempo with lots of half steps, taps and changes between small and wide steps. Taking the blade and parries were very nice tho.
@@IanSumallo The footwear is a major concern as well. Period footwear had a _lot_ more slippage, especially on grass and moreso on wet grass.
ua-cam.com/video/OjgPUIUHT-o/v-deo.html
And yet rapier didnt cut or do anything like that xD Meaning about half the manuevers were off the table, and the only reason she can bounce like that is because she has a lighter blade. I have seen and fought a couple of olympic fencers that tried that bounce with a rapier in their hand. That stuff doesnt work, the moment they are in the air, strong lunge, step off the line a bit, their hand is slower than they expect in coming back up and boom easy points
Very interesting! Just watching the bouts shows off the two weapons' designs very well. The sport epee is as light and fast as possible without sacrificing the ability to parry (look how much it bounces!), while the rapier is as light as possible without sacrificing the ability to penetrate human flesh.
poor showing, for a truely realistic comparison, why not let each fighter have no handicaps, just fight to there strengths
Piękne starcia. Wreszcie można coś oglądać z wielką ciekawością. Brawo!
I am practicing mof epee for 14 years and at the same time 10 years longsword and 5 years byzantine saber.
I want to say that rapier should have cuts. Also the modern fencer did not use 4ths and 8ths transitions which are extremely useful against rapier ( in my experience). Of course i would also comment that the male fencer had an almost clear advantage in distance management ( i mean experience).
All in all a nice match. Congratulations to both fencers for a duel well fought.
Thanks for the English translation of the fighters' comments in the Transcript. That was the most important aspect to me. Maybe you should mention that they are there, either in the video or description.
Am terrified by the skill of the Epee wielder. At my skill level, the person with the shorter weapon usually looses unless the other person goofs around, so in my head, a defensive rapier would always win vs an epee over time. I was proven wrong here. Amazing speed and lovely skill display.
Because its a sport rules not all for one like irl, it both have the ability to cut then the rapier will show why it works.
Actually, you would be surprised that even single dagger against rapier is far from lost cause, but defenses have to go forward, not backwards like in rapier vs rapier fight. Closing distance while paring with dagger, take blade to another hand and stab with dagger.
Two daggers against single rapier, defending with one dagger from thrust (like for disarming) and stabbing with another dagger is not very nice for person with a rapier.
People overestimate significance of length. Yes, it is helpful in some situations, but it is far from "105cm blade against 60cm blade, shorter dude is dead in few seconds".
This seemed really click-bait-y but actually much more 8nteresting and enlightening than expected. Well done. (Of course ruleset is everything and real combat is hard to emulate). The epee fencer in the first round did an amazing job overcoming the reach advantage with superior point control and quickness.
Awesome! Splendid work as always! I can imagine the reasons behind "only thrusts" rule. However, could you include some commentary on how cuts rapier cuts would affect such fight? Maybe in the next video? Looking forward to longsword vs r&d :)
Really depends on what kind of rapier if you want to include cuts. The topic is very complicated
An arming sword with slightly complex hilt would also be considered a rapier, and it could lop off an arm. 17 18th century rapiers would not be able to cut like that or couldn't cut at all. The terms is very broad
I can see in the very least to concern the fingers of the epee fencer. You're not going to fit a red dragon glove or similar on an olympic pistol grip, and taking a legit cut to the hand from a rapier could really ruin someone's day.
@Jake Thank you kindly for your opinion. I am aware of the information you provided. However, I asked the creators about their point of view, not any general one ;p
@Timothy yes, that one and many more reasons. As I said, I can imagine why. It can be also breaking epee's blade and much more :)
an epee (wich isn't a weapon) wouldn't be able to parry a rapier cut. It would bend and the epeist would get hit through her parry
@@frenchgalloglass5204 Now I feel like being trolled by all of you XD Thank you for your input. However, I didn't ask you. I asked the creators XD
If the question is "which is the better weapon?" the Epee is automatically at a loss regardless of whatever score this ends up at. It's light and fast, but too flexible and has no edge. It's not a weapon, it's a piece of sports equipment and it specialized to that end.
Nobody talks about it, but actually olympic fencing transitions incredibly good into fighting with car antena.
a lot of folks talking about rapier losing the cut making a big difference, but I think a bigger loss in points suffered by rapier was that Mr. Kalus demonstrated a propensity to leave his guard to the outside of his frame and angled in which gave Ms. Sokol a lot of great points of leverage to get strong parries and also surrendered a lot of his reach. Mr Kalus seemed to respond poorly when she beat him offline and closed. not panic, just an unfamiliar movement where he seems used to voiding instead of parrying or closing the line.
She is a much better athlete and even with the range disadvantage she was doing really well. A top flight olympic fencer will run circles around a Hema practicioner. The level of athleticism, technique and stamina are just on another level. Not to mention much higher competition standards.
Except when the blade gets grabbed, or I'm betting up agenst a buckler or spear or really any kind of armor, I'd wager you'd have a better time getting a giraffe penis though gamberson but we'll see how that plays out. More importantly Olympic fencing is an established sport been that way for more then a hundred years. Hema still figuring it's self out and hasn't even blown up yet. Your comparing the skill of an old man to a child, of course one has higher quality and standards . . . Doesn't mean we should give up on our future though
Ask any sport fenscr to try fencing in shirt and with mask. "Suicide" style attacks, often seen in sport fencing would be very, very painful and that would change style very much because it wouldn't be just matter of a score but a bruises too. Mentioning circles, no, sport fencers don't know how to fight in space, they are line only.
"It's not the weapon, but the skill and tactics of the warrior who holds it"
My Alcoholic Uncle Vladislav with a longbow: *Evil laughter*
The Epee is not a weapon it is a piece of sports equipment, that would be entirely useless in a actual fight.
Ok
Sharpen the point on an epee and you have the literal weapon it represents, the epee. There are films on youtube from the early to mid 20th c of actual epee duels, not exactly useless
By that logic the rapier they're using here is also a sport/training equipment as well because it flex more than a real swords + a rubber tip. Feder longsword is not a weapon either. The epee represented a weapon of it's period, the smallsword, a blade with no edge and can only thrust
@aaa
The real versions of weapons are made however the maker makes them, which includes more or less flex. Floppiness here is from a variety of factors, the high-leverage pistol grip, heavy point, optical illusions, as well as the blade profile.
Would you like to be stabbed with a sharpened epee? Not likely. Even as floppy as the sport weapons are, they still parry the rapier thrusts fine, they would likely parry cuts fine too though you'd have to parry much closer to the shell. You talk as if most sport fencing technique is behind the back flicks, where in reality most technique is compatible with their historical equivalent.
It looks like someone went to the rapier fencer between rounds and told him:
"You know, Fabris is watching."
Couple interesting takeaways from this:
1 - Interesting to see the weights of the weapons in action, Olympic epee very light compared to Spanish cup hilt rapier.
--------- I think a better comparison would've been with an original (in design) dueling Epee or even earlier, the small-sword, which is where epees descend from, not rapiers.
--------- Nonetheless, if you've trained with a weapon enough, it should be effortless, as it should be an extension of your body
2 - Not allowing cuts highlights how important it is then to have it compared to a proper historical counterpart (i.e epee/small-sword)
--------- Unlike the kendo/epee video that was posted recently to UA-cam that allowed all forms of contact.
--------- Not allowing arm/leg contact in the second act, again highlights the need for better comparison as it will favour the longer/heavier weapon. Full body contact is fairer, and so is allowing full rapier expression.
3 - Having practiced HEMA for some time, now competing in Epee (sport), it's evident that the footwork and basic sword work is more refined/regimented in the epeeist. This is without knowing their skill levels obviously, however the basic regular bladework preceding the footwork allowed the epeeist to engage and disengage a lot quicker than the other duelist
-------- The rapier was more or less poorly instinctively reacting rather than thinking various steps ahead, which is like what a lot of new fencers do as they slowly filter out their recoiling reaction in favour for planning/thinking
-------- The biggest mistake rapier made CONSTANTLY (especially for ITALIAN rapier), was contracting the arm and keeping the point off target (non-threatening), allowed for too many easy points for the epeeist, who had lesser reach, again very basic lessons for beginner training. Italian Rapier is/was the most influential school for modern epee, yet the epee used it more effectively. Doing this alone would've made for a more decisive rapier victory with its formidable reach and versatility (I don't mean "cuts", there's more hardware available for use)
4 - Like I stated earlier about having done HEMA, what bothered me most about it, like various martial arts (karate and kung fu in particular, compared to boxing/jiu jitsu), is how stubborn they are with regards to their conceived notions of "form", where they sacrifice mobility to replicate historic manuals' still images. I guarantee you, in a fight/duel situation, you're not going to want to slowly step around. Sure, there was the Spanish school of rapier ("destreza") that revolved (pun intended) on circular-to-linear contact movement, but it did not state that it should be limited to walking/shuffling pace.
-------- Move slow = get hit;
-------- Move quick = hit not so much
It was an interesting video, sad they couldn't do it fairly. I was hoping for some documentation to showcase "real"/performative comparisons.
Some of those “unsafe hits” were definitely out of tempo, but this was a very interesting video over all. I enjoyed it.
Not surprised at all by how it went, and the comparison is quite silly to begin with, to me.
At 410g and being able to flick it around easily the epee blade moves ridiculously fast, but even more ridiculous is how fast you can move the cup, with it being so light, which enables very fast parry riposte motion. Under modern rules, it would be illogical to think that rapier could ever win that fight since the other person just has to strike first.
That being said in a """"""""""realistic"""""""""""" fight (please notice the number of quotation marks) taking a hit from an epee blade would be trivial, the risk of a deadly wound is ridiculously small unless you get hit somehow in the eye, throat, etc... And even then it might not be deadly, but it sure won't be pretty.
The human ribcage is more than capable enough of withstanding hits and pierces to a certain extent (we have historical examples of French sailormen surviving hits made with a British cutlass to the chest that peeled half the skin and meat of and broke ribs, and it's a rather high number ). Epee doesn't come close to passing that threshold, and with clothes on top, a person could just forget about it. In short, past the surface wound, epee does 0 damage.
So looking at this from a point of duel to the death, a person with a rapier wouldn't really have to care, they could even offer a body part to get hit, tank through it and proceed to cut, thrust or do whatever with a rapier, because unlike the epee the rapier has the weight to inflict serious damage, and will not bend at the first sign of resistance.
This also brings us to the cuts.
This was a thrust-only fight, why? We are equalizing 2 weapons that are not equal and we are equalizing them unfairly in the favor of a lighter one.
Had the cuts been allowed, rapier just needs to stand in a high guard and cut down, that's it. It's longer so it will reach first, epee cannot parry/block that. And this whole thing goes out the window. For people that will get angry, it would be the same with a side cut. Just swing it at the opponent's head, epee blade will not block/parry that, and even if they try to go for you, they cannot go to your head (rapier is taking the central line), meaning they have to attack either the arm or the chest, and we all know what target is reached first in the head vs chest game, now let's add 20 cm on top of that for good measure and well....
So while fun to watch and do, these kinds of videos are ultimately inaccurate and should not be taken as the end result of anything other than people having fun and trying stuff out.
Agreed 100%
I'm gonna say it:
The stab and backspin at @5:40 was probably the cleanest and most-stylish hit I've seen on camera.
Ya boi not only landed a clean and lethal blow, but Jedi-spinned out of the way of another killing blow. It was a perfect shot.
Epee won the match, though I'm unsure why Rapier was not allowed cuts? It seems so out-of-place. *Of course* the Epee is going to get more-consistent thrusts than the rapier: It's a flailing piece of highly flexible metal that can be flicked around the guard.
The epee fencer was phenomenal. Ordinarily, swordsmen double down on either their tenacity, their speed or their defensive capabilities. She excelled at all three and combined them with rapid, unpredictable footwork.
The rapier fencer clearly took an older man's approach, conserving energy and attempting to end things with fewer attacks. Now, 38 isn't really "old", and he's clearly in good shape, but anyone who has reached that age will tell you a healthy 23 year old has a world of advantage over them in terms of agility and range of motion, especially when combined with his weapon weighing over twice as much.
She relied on her agility to obscure her patterns of attack. He relied on patient planning and making every movement count. In fact, the more I think about it, the parallels between this fight and Yoda vs Count Dooku are hilariously relevant in a way I thought I'd never observe in a real fight 🤣
Since when these pistol grippy sporty flimsy epees became a weapon? 😂
Got ‘em
You are aware that if not pistol grip, this sword is the youngest to be used in bloody duels? The only dues that we have videos of. And that any epee hit registrated by electrics means 400g pressure on thrust, which for sharp epee is enough to penetrate 20 cm of meat? And that this sword, due to equipment malfunction, killed several people in XX and XXI century?
@@Druid_Ignacy *facepalm*
An epee was a dueling weapon to draw first blood, just because its lighter doesnt mean a sharp thrust to the face, or any body part for that matter, wouldn't kill or at least injure you right?
Ever since smallswords were a thing. Heck, any sword that had finger rings on them encouraged pistol grips.
Widowiskowe, fajnie się to ogląda. W realnym życiu to "badziewie z żyłki" się do niczego nie nadaje. W dodatku pan EWIDENTNIE daje pani fory. Dżentelmen:)🎉😂
Next fight: Shotgun vs Epee
No shooting allowed, only thrusts with the barrel 🧐
@@Hetnaset How about negligent discharges? She's pretty hot.
Well that would make as much sense as this video honestly
Cool that My country has awesome fencers
As a JKD practitioner, I found great value here
Marta's technics is so much advanced. If she had been a man with adequate physical strength, she would have won 10-0 in both fights
Excellent presentation!
so much fun to watch! Really shows how much the skill matters, how a good fighter can keep the fight where they have the advantage. But also style! Would the fight have been different with different fighting styles? I think so. If the rapier user had a more bouncy, wide-legged stance, could they have kept the range in their favour more? But a flat-footed epee wielder who used their off-hand a lot to compensate for the shorter range would also be interesting. In fact I'd like to see the same two people swap weapons!
Fantastic! I have said for years that Olympic fencing is underrated.
It's a pleasure seeing the dance between two skilled duelists.
I absolutely love this video! I've lost count of how many times I've rewatched it. Do you think you'll ever produce a video of olympic sabre vs any form of historical sabre (as in, either British, Hungarian or Polish)?
Great video! super fun to watch!
The most surprising thing was that the sports epee could actually parry the rapier.
This was Very interesting! Thank you for doing this!
I am so glad that HEMA started taking advantage of range towards the end of round one. It was making me mad haha