Law and Ogre | Tactics Ogre Analysis (Ep.8) | State of the Arc Podcast
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- Опубліковано 7 чер 2024
- What elements of the show are necessary to maintain?: strawpoll.com/eNg69O6VenA
Has the podcast been disappointing? strawpoll.com/X3nk4w92YgE
We now approach the Law route of Tactics Ogre. Let's talk about it!
Time Codes:
1. Intro (0:00)
2. Balmamusa (20:24)
3. Chapter 2 (50:50)
4. Denam's Lie (1:13:10)
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I think the conversation style is what makes the channel unique. There are countless analysis videos on games, but very free conversation type videos on games
I think it would be a terrible shame to have the entire series recorded before posting as I feel that would completely lose the interactive aspect of it. I know there is a difficult balance to maintain between the recording/editing process and interaction with your audience but the thought of completely losing what interaction we do get (youtube comments/insights are just as valuable as Patreon/discord interactions in my mind) would be the biggest loss proposed. So please keep the Bookclub format as best you can.
While the _one host has not played the game before_ aspect can be fun I think it is easily the least important aspect and could be lost without harming the show.
As for the _Strong, thoughtful analysis of symbolism, mysticism, psychology, philosophy_ aspect I'd say that is so thoroughly baked into the show that it could not even be separated from it and still be Resonant Arc.
The _Conversational flow_ aspect is similarly baked into the show but would be lost if you also lost the Bookclub aspect. Losing the Bookclub format would just turn these longform analyses into just really long scripted retrospective reviews.
*To sum up* - The _Strong, thoughtful analysis_ cannot be changed without gutting the show, the _Bookclub_ and _Conversational flow_ are baked into each other and would be terrible to lose, but the _one host has not played before_ aspect (while can be fun) is not really that important.
I don't feel that this series has been disappointing at all. Admittedly I have not played Tactics Ogre before and was not prepared to make the effort to play along with the series so I've just been learning about the series entirely from this podcast and have been enjoying the experience quite thoroughly.
I agree with most of your sentiments. I'd be fine with prerecording some segments together if that helps with the work load but I do like when the guys come back a week later with some additional feedback from their Patreon.
I think the reason a lot of newer fans are concerned about the lack of Lore is because recently the emphasis on symbolism and themes seems to be secondary. Nearly every video in older series like FFX & Xenogears involved a thorough approach to the theme and deeper meaning. I think newer fans are getting the wrong ideas that this is a lore podcast precisely because th guys haven't played the games yet.
A good game that intelligently incorporates these bigger ideas isn't going to immediately make its symbolism obvious on your first playthrough.. Story, characterization and lore are what usually come first. It takes a second or third attempt to peel away the onion unless you're playing a Kojima game where the symbolism is smacking you in the face lol
Tactics Ogre is just a gigantic game script wise. It took us, the community well over a year after the release of Reborn that we figure out how to actually get %100 events that Casen mentioned (that was my reddit post btw hi). And I'm talking about a game that has been released at 2010 (PSP ver). For 13 years some cutscenes have stayed buried in the game with no finders. Those days i think only a handful of people knew about the secret sidequest that would only happen when you kill Catiua after recruiting her as princess in a span of two maps until the sidequest gets locked. I honestly thought for years that a dead princess would be game over condition like Denam. And this was a sidequest that existed even back in the SNES version.
And that's just one example. Another is learning how the blood war between the Galgastan and Walister has actually started. For such an important plot point that is mentioned throughout the early and mid game, learning what actually happened to cause this racism is hidden extremely deep in this game between battle dialogues that even the script guide that Mike has currently have open in a tab in that laptop have those battle dialogues missing. (Spoilers, It was another massacre by the Walister btw. They massacred their allied army the Galgastani forces and switched sides to Dorgalua's side secretly which ultimately made him win the war. Roderick's side would have probably won otherwise.)
In short what i wanna say is don't feel bad. Even with a different format or a different Orcbrand there is no way to achieve covering this game in such span of time. I think its best to continue as usual for this game and maybe in the future we can see the return of some old Darkpixel style analysis videos in your channel covering this game which would be really enjoyable. Though that would probably double your workload with the podcast lol. That's my vote. We are lucky to have this podcast even if it doesn't always reach the high standard Mike envisions. Cheers.
I listen to these at work regardless of if i played the game or not. The conversation between you two is what makes the podcast / bookclub format good. I liked the xenogears episodes more. I think you went more into depth, shorter playtime, and longer episodes with that series. The longer playtime and weekly episodes has kept me from playing a few games along with you, i get a couple hours at most to play video games a week and i cant keep up with you sometimes.
ugh, I really didn't like the poll for what needs to stay, because all of the options are essential for what I enjoy about this podcast.
I've seen literally every episode on every game you've posted (I have a side gig where I make and sell stickers, and I listen to the podcast while I do my production runs.) and all of the options are what I enjoy about the show.
The book club style is essential for your guys' excitement going into the next episode, but it goes hand in hand with one of you experiencing the game for the first time. So I think if one of these is to go, they both have to go, as they go hand-in-hand. Plus this allows the audience to be very interactive as they can experience it again, or for the first time along with the podcast, which is great fun.
Kaysen's in-depth analysis is important, because it's very interesting, and it's even more interesting when he's experiencing the game/film/whatever for the first time, as his interpretation/analysis can be confirmed or changed throughout the podcast and the reflection on his own ideas and analysis is equally interesting to witness unfold.
And the free flow conversational style is essential as it keeps the entire podcast organic and authentic. I'm not worried about you guys censoring yourselves or strategically picking things to say. And you almost do have a script of sorts, as you have notes on what you intend to talk about, which means you've thought about your words when writing and then re-reading the notes. It's the best of both worlds as far as content goes, because it's unscripted but focused.
All-in-all if any of these things were to be removed, my enjoyment of the podcast would go down. I'm not opposed to experiencing an episode or 2 of the newly iterated format you guys decide on, as I could just be wrong and enjoy it much more. But if I enjoy it less, I'm sad to say I'd stop watching, as all of these factors are things I enjoy about your podcast that other podcasts don't do. Otherwise I'd be watching the other podcasts, if that makes sense.
My feeling is that Tactics Ogre doesn't lend itself that neatly to this particular format. We are jumping back and forth between routes and story points and it becomes hard to follow at times. I agree that having some previous familiarity with the game could've helped to streamline the presentation. But I generally like this book club style of game analysis and it is pretty unique as far as gaming podcasts go, so I'd suggest to keep it going forward.
Mike and Casen are awesome dudes. There are so many games I would have never played if it wasn’t for them.
Thank you for continuing to make it clear you are doing a literary analysis. That is why I subscribed. So many dig into the stories and lore but few analyze the way you two do. I dont think either of you need to have played the game but it is nice to have a guest to have.
Tactics Ogre is an insanely difficult game to cover in this format, we're lucky to even have this coverage. I initially wrote a criticism comment on one of the previous episodes, but felt bad, got flustered, and deleted it lol. Sometimes it's best to just appreciate what we have.
The podcast is indeed at its best when someone is familiar with the game but I dunno, can't you solve this somewhat if you simply gave yourself time to finish the game on your own before starting to cover it? Would the channel suffer too much or is this just impossible due to life stuff? Personally I'd wait as long as it takes for you to be fully ready to do this and ensure the podcast goes smoothly, so I don't mind having no episodes for a week or two. The co-host thing I don't care either way tbh, it all depends on the person, their level of expetise, their tech situation, and how comfortable they are being on camera and that's always unpredictable.
That said I don't think the way this series went so far is necessarily a signal for change, the podcast is fine as is, Tactics Ogre is just too huge, and not all of it is all that 'deep' thematically is the thing, and I think we all thought it had a lot more to offer when it really didn't.
Overall, comparing this and the FFT podcast the only thing I missed is you not noting just how damn good the localization and dialogue in Tactics Ogre is, as often as you did it for FFT and you absolutely showered it with praise back then. So that felt a little weird. There are some killer lines in Tactics Ogre too and they deserve to be mentioned more often.
EDIT: I voted analysis>live conversation>book club>one host unfamiliar. I think the overall quality of the analysis is easily the most important thing for me but I definitely don't want to lose the conversation aspect of the podcast, without it, each analysis might as well be a video essay at that point and there's too many of those on UA-cam already. I come here for genuine reactions, great banter, even angry rants! Your Persona rant at the end of FFT podcast was legendary lol. Not to mention that without the live book club format we would lose a good bit of interaction through the comments section, and my god the comments on this channel are just phenomenal.
Awesome, I'd love to come on! Also, yeah, covering this game can be a monstrously long process, but this has been a really interesting watch regardless.
Also, if the format needs to change, clearly the only effective approach is to become WWE, but arguing story points from the ropes.
To me, Vyce's motivation on all 3 still seems consistent from a horny teenager. He tries to kidnap Catiua through mercenaries in Chaos and Neutral, or uses his Rebels try and verbally recruit her in Law. He always goes for her. We all did dumb shit as teenagers in hopes it would somehow be impressive to others.
He's insecure, hot headed, and in Law...gets slapped upside the head with the realization that for once he was justified. He's a good guy for once, and not being an asshole....is good? Huh, maybe we should keep doing more of that. He's as baffled as anyone else.
do it!
Do it!!
Amongst difficult and obscure JRPG's, Tactics Ogre is a Crown in itself.
I believe if you've been with Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen or Ogre Battle 64: Person of Lordly Caliber, it would've been a completly different task all-together.
To be fair, for what is Tactics Ogre you all three did an amazing job and I honestly feel you are genuine and true in your playthroughs.
Thank you for your retrospectives/introspectives of this marvelously challenging serie!
This is a difficult game to tackle because of how non linear it is, and the varying quality of the narrative depending on your choices/outcomes. I think it is also a game that will confuse many players, until you finish a route(or two) and get a feel for generally what Matsuno was trying to accomplish by structuring the game this way. I personally think you guys(including Ivan) have done an amazing job, and that this is now THE definitive long form analysis of TO.
I have seen some complaints(in the comments) about you guys "fumbling through the game", however most blind playthroughs of TO will turn out like that. In fact I would call that, the norm. I have greatly appreciated being able to see and hear your immediate reactions to the different routes and how they affected you in that moment, it the most honest and direct analysis of TO I have ever seen.
The only legitimate complaint I can see about this series is the technical issues with Ivan(audio delay), sometimes breaking up the flow of the discussion. However I would have rather have him there(technical issues and all) to guide you guys through Neutral, to get a solid feel for why the game is doing what it is. Than have you tackle it completely blind, get Chaos/Lord/Assassination...and be like "WTF MATE, how did I get the bad ending when I did everything 'right'?" And miss the point, like many content creators tackling TO have.
While this format may not be ideal for other titles/podcasts moving forward, I think it worked very well for tackling a monstrous game like Tactics Ogre.
A roundtable-style discussion at the end of FFXVI was great.
Perhaps you could implement that for every final episode?
Also, if the majority would prefer scripted content, may I suggest you look into some channels that do fantastic retrospectives on video games if only for reference material?
A couple channels I recently subbed to are called “I Finished a Video Game” and “Majuular.” Both are fantastic long-form video game retrospective channels.
Action Button is king tho
Is it, @@Y-two-K ?
His videos are TOO long and meandering. I've only ever been able to finish one..
hey guys I'm glad to see you taking feedback into account, but I don't think you should read too much into the results for this particular game. This is a tough game, both mechanically and in terms of how the story is presented. As you mentioned, the amount of choices limits what can be experienced by any given player. While hindsight will probably provide some ideas as to how to tackle a game like this in the future, I'd hate to see you avoid a game you're interested in playing just because it's tough to fit into the format.
It might be a good idea to have you both play through the game beforehand, and then proceed with the podcast in "book club" form with you both having the full context under your belt. That might also help you guide additional content, such as guests like Ivan that can fill in some of that wider lore from the series as a whole.
We have discovered Schrödinger's Vyce.
Not to mention Schrodinger's "which wife/children share Nybeth's surname in WR", or Schrodinger's "does Gildas die of Martym's blade's poison or not/is he still alive when Nybeth found him on Neutral"... Personally I prefer to think it's just retention of information in all cases but especially those two: Nybeth kept his families separate and so they didn't always have his family name on paper, and Gildas sent Martym running but collapsed from poison (and whether his friends find him or not determines his fate).
We are finally closing the Matsuno Arc: FFXII, FFT, Vagrant Story, Tactics Ogre. Great games that resonated with many people around the world.
We don't know if Matsuno will ever put out another game so this might as well be IT.
Thank you for your hard work and analysis just a little more to the end!
The first 20 minutes are why you guys make the best content and are continually the highlight of my week.
I don't know how far in advance you guys record, but I wanted to point to a Warren Report scene you should be able to view at the start of Chapter 3 Law that doesn't play if you don't manually go into the Report to view it. Its a scene with Denam, Vyce and Catiua and may be my favorite scene in the game. I think it gives great insight into each character's headspace at that point. Its a great primer to the overall theme of Law route and Chapter 3 in particular, so I think its still relevant to the way you guys have approached this.
It really is unfortunate how difficult the game makes it to experience its content though. I'm still hoping for a full text dump at some point.
You guys should do whatever makes YOU happy. IMO you’re at your best when you’re doing what you care about. You guys are probably going to be used in schools 100 years from now when video games become literature
Being honest, after listening to many of your podcast series, I like how different are each of them. In other words, I am happy with you guys having a natural and non-fixed formula. For example you focused a lot on symbolism for SH2, you talked a lot about your personal lives during Nier automata, and here for Tactics ogre you are frequently talking about human history. In some of them you both played previously, in some others you didnt. I like that, it feels genuine. I dont think doing what people tell you to do is necessarily the best idea. So in short, do whatever the fuck you feel most confortable doing. You will do it great. Even when you make "mistakes" I would not consider them as much, since you always provide thoughful insights into everything.
Appreciate the reflection about not being able to cover a game "thoroughly" on a first time play, even though I think you've done fine, as this is quite the large game to try to complete and then process. I've seen other content creators try to cover both old games and new games with the same format and the quality of discussion suffered. Retrospectives and book clubs can both work as long as you're clear about the goal going in (which I think you were) and that you're passionate about the game, new or old.
6:50 I had never played it until Reborn came out and put like 300 hours into it to get the platinum, but even the platinum doesn't include much of anything from the CODAs, the Heavenly Generals, San Bronsa, etc., and I still missed a few recruitable characters even after doing all 3 paths. One of the biggest games I've ever played.
My vote is that so long as "Strong, thoughtful analysis of symbolism, mysticism, psychology, philosophy, etc." is the keystone, any shakeup you guys could do would be worthwhile to attempt! If it isn't working, you can always switch back to the format that was working before, but I'm glad to see from poll results everyone seems to agree with me that this is THE most important element.
Honestly I think you did fine addressing the game, and that the culture surrounding the game was the greater issue.
Literary analysis of certain types of games is just an inherently very complicated affair - especially non-linear narratives.
After all, story appreciation and questions about how a narrative plays out - what works and what doesn't - becomes obscured when there's such a massive breadth of variant experiences pending the choices a player makes on an organic playthrough.
Obviously all art is colored by what the audience brings with them into the experience, but this is compounded with games like Tactics Ogre even moreso than regular novels or movies, and there's a legitimate question to ask in regards to what the implication the non-linearity has on the impact of the general gist of a story.
I think it's obviously possible that stories structured like TO run certain unique risks though they may also garner certain unique pay-offs. On one hand, non-linearity can make it very hard to retain thematic clarity/salience unless the non-linear element itself is the thematic core of the story, and in those cases I think the "thematic diffision" is critique-worthy. On the other hand, with non-linear or choice-based story-telling you might inspire a stronger sense of immersion as the audience are lead to feel as though the story is a product of their own involvement and they're also then made to reflect more on their own choices and perspectives. This is perhaps praiseworthy even with some level thematic diffusion.
One way or the other, I think reflecting on these two merits/demerits might sober some rash critiques/praises and is worth doing.
As a disclaimer, I had never played Tactics Ogre before and started together with the podcast.
I actually believe it was a fun journey to see you guys having a pretty strong position that Denam wouldn't make that decision at the end of Chapter 1, and then, on this episode, you guys reevaluating this position based on everything you saw. And after all that, coming to the conclusion that it was a plausible course of events (as morally "evil" as it is), since he was so young, naive and being pressured by his superior.
I understand that people that had already played every single route (maybe even more than one time) would feel like you guys were "not understanding"/"missing the point"/or whatever... It's pretty difficult to put ourselves in the shoes of others and to understand that you arrived at a pretty valid conclusion based on the information you had at that point in time.
Since it was my first time experiencing the story, I agreed with you guys every step of the way (since I had access to the same amount of information)...
In this way, it felt like when I watch a new TV Show with my friends and we theory craft every week. No one knows more than the others.
That being said, I think the format where one of you already knows the whole context of the game (like Xenogears) is interesting because, the first time this discussion appeared, this person could make the argument that Mike made in this episode... And change the course of the discussion.
It's a different experience and, in my opinion, both are valid... I believe you guys will know which one you want this podcast to have, and I believe most people will be happy with either.
I didn't see any problem with this serie you said (and had Yvan on because) you both had not played the game before. Once you know that you know the serie will be a little different. Anyway, once again outstanding episode ty for your work
I’ve been very happy with the Tactics Ogre podcast. I liked having a guest expert as well. The only issue I had was more a technical issue, Ivan was sometimes getting cutoff or was cutting off you guys because of the delay and I found that a bit distracting. However I understand that’s just a technical issue and ultimately it’s fine.
However you guys choose to change the format I do think there should always be an expert helping to guide the discussion; whether it’s one of you guys or a guest.
I also really like the discussion format. A couple guys hosting a book club. The current format gives me the feeling like I’m in the room also discussing. Which is why I sometimes comment multiple times, because I wanna give my input as things come up.
I’ll be looking out for the polls to be sure though
I truly disliked having an expert in the room. Nothing at all against Ivan, it's specifically having someone who knows *everything* interrupting to tell you that your presumptions are wrong even if the game wants to lead you down that path. It breaks the flow and feels like the invisible hand now has a spotlight being shone on it. It feels like a commentary on a guide more so than an organic exploration of the media.
I think the best way to prevent the show stagnating and feeling like this again is: *don't play games with dozens of optional characters and endings with extremely challenging recruitment, lore and hidden scenes*.
@@bartandaelus359 Kinda agree tbh. The experts should be reserved for the final episode when the game's finished and they are looking back at it all in reflection. Having an outside perspective for those final moments can be very refreshing.
Great episode as always. I might go into this more when you talk about the rest of Law, but I do believe there are arguments to be made for why characters acting differently in different routes is not necessarily contradictory. Personally I think looking at the routes as completely separate stories, and looking at the routes as being connected through consistencies in characters are both valid ways to interpret the story. What I do agree with is that trying to understand the weird ways characters act in certain moments requires a lot of extra reasoning that the game does not spell out, which can really hurt the experience for some people. Vyce is just really tough to argue for consistency across all 3 routes. But what I will say for now is that I just don't think chapter 1 gives enough evidence to say for certain that Vyce would not take a moral path. Sure he is rude and aggressive and even hateful towards the people at Balmamusa, but is it entirely fair to assume that he would be okay with a massacre just because he's an asshole? Also worth noting that even in Law route he's still impulsive and rude, it just took him down a *very* different path this time. But I will admit that Vyce having the capability to be so drastically different, even if they both come from the same basic personality traits is a tough pill to swallow.
I'm really hope CoffeePotato will make an appearance on the podcast. He's not just the "gameplay mechanics" guy. He knows the story exceptionally well. He has a video comparing how TO handles it's branching story compared to Triangle Strategy. I think he would give some valuable perspectives.
Coffee P's perspective on TriStrat is a bit conflicted for me, admittedly; he makes a lot of good points for sure, but there's occasions where I do think he's bitter it wasn't a "proper" successor to TO. Not that I'm invalidating his feelings, I definitely think the game made decisions I absolutely find questionable (particularly yes, that outside of some story beats nothing really changes based on choices tangibly until the very end) and as a whole I prefer TO, but... I dunno. Definitely interested to see what Mike and Casen would make of TriStrat on their podcast at least, but I hope Coffee doesn't derail by bringing it up here.
Even so, having him would be an absolute treat for even just one episode of the TO one.
I wish I had seen this before I voted. Hahaha. The context would’ve changed my answer.
You’ll have a better idea of like metrics and audience engagement and interaction than I will but I would ask if you really feel that it’s the format or perhaps the game selections themselves (and if this is really an apples to apples comparison w/ Xenogears v Tactics Ogre). That’s had the lower interaction. Xenogears was a game that had special meaning to Mike (and large parts of the audience) and Kaysen (and the audience who hadn’t played it) also came to love it. I personally had always heard of Xenogears but hadn’t played it. After watching 2 or 3 episodes, was convinced that I absolutely had to experience this. So I went and beat the game (you had finished the podcast) and then watched the rest. A large part of that I feel is due to Mike’s history and enthusiasm for the game. Whereas tactics ogre, by no means is a bad game, I’ve played it. The story is amazing. However, it doesn’t have that history or relation for either of you _or_ most people. It’s even more niche than Xenogears I feel. Despite being more available. (Maybe I’m wrong, just how I feel). Speaking broadly, with a lot of patreon projects, I see creators letting the audience guide their work more, which is good, but also something that may need more balancing. I think here we did 3-4 patreon picked games in a row? All great games, to be sure. But maybe if it was interspersed more with games that either one of you had a history with, that would have more along the lines of the audience connection that Xenogears had. And if I were to directly compare, as an audience member between xenogears and tactics ogre. Even though they might be the same length or similar (lets say they’re both 80hrs). Xenogears is far easier to play and go through than tactics ogre. The combat in tactics ogre is much more difficult and will hamper speed and progress considerably. We all have limited time after work, and I generally wouldn’t choose to spend the 5 hours a week available to me in tactics ogre, since a single battle is roughly 45 minutes (if you don’t lose). Whereas in games like xenogears, you progress much faster comparatively.
I voted in both polls. My answers were mostly typical to the results so far.
What I would like to add is that I am probably not your typical, intended audience. I don't have time in my current stage of life to play along with the games you choose, but I really do enjoy the reviews and nostalgia that watching this podcast gives me the chance to experience.
Many games you played here I have not played, and I have not watched all of those podcasts. But the FFX and now Tactics Ogre podcasts I have enjoyed, despite not playing them. Experiencing the games vicariously, through the friendship and outlook that has (at least somewhat) similar backgrounds to my own, is quite good for me.
Thank you for all your effort. This is the media that I want to consume more of, even if it has to change over time in order to keep going.
From decades on the internet, once a video creator I like starts adding skits, my interest is over. I like the inserts you guys add from time to time to clarify things but am not interested in adding "cinematic" stuff. Have loved every podcast so far. This one was really fun.
Totally off topic but DAMN that Xenogears podcast was NUTS
me, i always watch your videos whenever i know the game that you guys are going to talk about,, but if the game is something new,, or a game that i havent played yet, i wont watch your video becouse i still hope one day to play that game by myself, or the game just not interest me at all. but i do love how you do what you do and thats the reason why i still watch all of your old videos multiple times now, because they are music in the ear to listen how you guys talk about the games that i love and the feeling is like going back and injoying those moments again for the second time.
Personally I don’t think requiring one of you to have played the game before is necessary. I know you’re trying to do this in a book club format, well, part of that is sometimes having never read the book to begin with. It’s a suggestion someone makes (like you probably use with your comments and polls) to select the book, or in this case, game that you play next. Even loving the game by the end isn’t and shouldn’t be a requirement. Not everyone is going to love the suggested book or game, it’s really your thoughts and analysis along the way that make it fun. Obviously if you end up hating the game so much you don’t want to finish, that’s one thing. But if you can play through and still end up being like, “I didn’t really like it because x, y, and z. It felt like it was missing this, this didn’t feel deep enough, etc.” I think that can still be a very enjoyable podcast. I know you guys want to do justice to the devs and the games and the players who suggested it, and try to focus on more of the story and what its creators are trying to convey. Being first time gamers, it’s easier to see if that’s how it actually comes across or not. And then, instead of starting the podcast going through the interviews and ultimania’s and process the devs went through, you can see whether that was done well, rather then at the beginning, in the chance you both haven’t played the game yet.
For games with multiple routes, like Tactics Ogre here, is it helpful, maybe. Games with multiple routes can get confusing, so I think no matter what you would have had some trouble guiding through everything. All in all, think you guys have done a great job and love the podcast! Whatever you choose to do for the future, as long as you’re having fun and enjoying yourselves, that’s what matters most.
The show is almost perfect as is. Whatever imperfections are also welcome, as you guys are just people - and in a AI content driven world, I'm thankful for. If I may add: more visuals (and in sync) would help for context, as many people do actually sit down and _watch_ the whole thing. I even make pop corn. Not a great deal though.
(Edit) I just would like to add that Ivan's amazing. Having an expert is a boon. You wanted to shake things up and that worked.
I want casen to do his 50 best games of all time! 🤘🏻 come one casen you can do it!
Casen has said that he’s notoriously bad with lists, but I’d love for this to happen too. Go Casen!
1:20:15 - 1:20:18
Casen, that’s Starship Troopers.
I'd like to make a lukewarm case for Vyce as a character. Seeing him in Law after Neutral and Chaos was definitely tonal whiplash, but I think his behavior has some consistency when you consider that his main motivations are: (1) a burning desire to be the main character of his own story, not a side character in Denam's; and (2) a hatred born of trauma that seeks some kind of outlet. In Chapter 1, he feels like he has little autonomy compared to Denam and has no clear outlet for his hatred, so he just lashes out against everyone. He sees the choice in Balmamusa as an opportunity to break from Denam and earn his own autonomy. The difference in his personality between chapters comes from his success in doing so, and to whom he points his hatred.
In neutral and chaos, he recognizes that Denam's choice gave him Denam the moral high ground, and this only served to exacerbate Vyce's nascent inferiority complex. Accordingly, Denam becomes the outlet for his hatred, and he makes increasingly rash decisions in an effort to prove himself superior and claim a sense of control over his life. In Neutral, this behavior leads directly to his ruin. In Chaos, he is able to focus more on trying to acrue power (and autonomy) within the framework he selected of working for the Duke.
In Law, Vyce has the moral high ground, which I think helps him get over his inferiority complex and stop comparing himself to Denam. In railing against the Duke's decision, he is also able to point his hatred not toward a person, but toward a cause--the dismantlement of the nobility. Doing so, he was able to amass followers and finally achieve self-actualization as the "main character" of his life. I would argue that Law Vyce is the Vyce he always wanted to be, if only he could let go of his unhealthy obsession with Denam (and with Catiua's loyalty to Denam.) I love the battle chatter in Law where Catiua tells Vyce she doesn't give a shit about him, and he responds to the tune of "I know, and I wish that weren't the case, but here we are." Chaos Vyce would have freaked the hell out, but it shows that Law Vyce has grown.
Final Fantasy Tactics Ogre Battle 64 - greatest game that has ever tacticted
I'd play it!
I'll support you guys no matter what you end up doing! As many other commenters have said this is a beast of a game to cover in any format. Playing it for the first time on PSP I had the same issues with the story that ended up being brought up here. It has so much content and variations that it would be like trying to do the book club on an MMO. I think Ivan did a great job and am looking forward to the possibility seeing CoffeePotato and/or Warren Report on the podcast. I think the temporary set, Ivan calling in remote with some delay causing the conversations to stutter at times and the difficulty in covering a game of this scale made it feel not ideal. That said, it's my favorite part of the week when my favorite podcast covers one of my favorite games! As someone who has put collectively about 500 hours into various versions of Tactics Ogre, got that Platinum trophy and has made his own (shameless plug) videos about Reborn and Let Us Cling Together I have to say the only way to cover this game thoroughly is to dedicate your entire existence to it and so far CoffeePotato is the only soul brave enough to do that!
Please please please keep the format holy hell
I'm not sure it's entirely necessary to have played the game first to give a good story analysis. In fact I think in many ways the final fantasy 16 podcast proved that. You were taken on a ride that you were enjoying at first until you saw how hollow it was. In this game you had your doubts in many places and some of those doubts were vindicated in the end, while others were eventually wiped out. Part of story analysis is how it lands as you experience it in the moment instead of after the fact precisely because you won't have that foresight. To have one of you saying "Don't worry; it gets better!" might undermine the analysis in a different way.
That said, it may not matter either way since one of this podcast's strengths is that it always comes around to those discussions eventually. If a new or unfamiliar game looks neat and you want to play and analyze it, I'm here for it. It may turn out to be a total bust for you, but your analysis of the story and how it lands for you will not be a bust for us because you'll tell us why, and that's interesting too!
I've said this before in other episodes but the reason Vyce changes so greatly in the Balmamusa choice is because, at his core, he was a very petty person. In Chaos route he essentially suffers a mental breakdown (That's why his portrait looks like he's turned into a psycho) from his jealousy of Denam and in Law he basically realizes Denam is capable of being a flawed human being. His pettiness is consistent with both routes. In law he isn't the perfect hero he portrays himself to be he's just hiding his actual potential to go both ways like Cautua during Balmamusa. His actions are consistent in that he was actually at a point in his life where his growth could go in drastic directions. He was in the truest words "Denams Rival". He is contradictory because the moment at Balmamusa was him being a contrarian just to spite you. Only in Law though does he have the opportunity to grow is because he doesn't see Denam as a pillar of envy anymore and sees a bigger picture beyond his hatred of Denam.
As for Leonar his motives are at their core "What I think is best for the country at the time." Leonar against Chaos Denam at that point was still being pragmatic about his motives. He did consider Denam a good choice to rely on, but only if he were to fail in his goal. It was not the "I was wrong Denam you're the true hero and I want to give you my men." It's "If I lose you're the only card I have left in the equation that benefits my people the most so take my men.". At it's core he's a pragmatist, not a redeemer in any sense.
The Duke's folly is his arrogance. Denam working against him urges the Duke to be cautious because he considers Denam a more dangerous foe, but also because of Balmamusa's success he isn't thrown off his groove. But in Law and Neutral he becomes even MORE complacent in his arrogance because he underestimates Vyce in both Law and Neutral. In Neutral Vyce is ignored only to end up being the variable that does Ronway in while in Law Vyce does a better job than Denam at spreading information. This goes back into what I said about Vyce who is essentially an insecure person with great potential.
The game intentionally keeps information from you in different routes because it allows for the element of surprise to keep itself. Vyce still likely was told of the Balmamusa plan, but withholds it because it ruins the surprise of Chaos if Law was first taken by the player. When added together it may seem contradictory, but it makes sense when you consider the games argument of people shaping their beliefs as they go along rather than having these beliefs the entire time.
Bravo! Perfect 10 in mental gymnastics
@@plop0r You sound like Vyce.
@@Gaarkukan21 TOs story is thematically amazing but it does take some work to justify a lot of the characters motivations consistently across different timelines
@@plop0r We have to keep in mind that Denam can't be the only person having a character arc based on the routes chosen. The worst we get out of these splits is usually withheld information based on chosen routes rather than character consistency/evolution.
Your FF X Podcast is my favorit. I dont know why, what I do know is that i have seen it 4 times all episodes. ( And it's not even one of my favorits games 😅 )
I think because it's broken up into easily identifiable chapters that feel right. The linearity and depth of it is also super interesting because you're constantly getting answers to things.
With tactics ogre it's more like 'okay now if you use this character on those battle in this route and the survive 30 turns they will say 2 lines of dialogue that answer a question they were asked in an optional scene 3 battles ago' and it's just so exhausting to track it all.
For me it's a tie between Xenogears and FFX. Such good stuff.
I loved this podcast, I think that maybe you shouldn't have felt pushed into following specific story paths for the first run. I think it should of been more organic, and then you could have used Wheel of Fortune to view the other routes.
I don't really need the book club aspect personally. I just love to hear the findings and reactions of you guys on the game's story and mechanics or the art direction.
I think it's more fun when you are both going in blind and talking about it. The Xenosaga playthrough was amazing. I loved that both of you were playing off each other's ideas of the story and having new discoveries.
This is my first time listening to your podcast, I have seen a lot of TO videos before, and for once the youtube algorithm actually got it right and recommended your video the day it dropped, lol. I personally have really enjoyed your discussions on this game. I can't say if this is "up to standard" as I have no history with you guys to judge by, But this series has definitely got me interested in seeing what other games you have discussed in the past. My only real complaint is that I didn't like how structured your playthroughs were, I appreciate that you brought someone into the discussion who had played the game before, and even enjoyed his input, I just wish he had let you guys experience the game naturally instead of intentionally trying to direct you through His own opinion of the "best order." Hearing you guys discuss the differences in your own playthroughs would have been another interesting layer to add onto what was already a great discussion. (Also to tack on to that, I also would have preferred you to not looked up what happened on a different choice, before finishing your first run)
So all in all, as a new listener and a huge fan of TO (Been playing since I was 11 on every iteration) I greatly enjoyed this podcast, and loved hearing your thoughts with fresh eyes into the series.
For all the criticism you guys have received about the way you've handled this game, I feel that I must point this out: I bought this game because I enjoy your analysis of it. While it's important to be open to critique, not all critique is valid -- especially when it comes from people who didn't read the big bold print on the front of the fetchin' box.
I feel that only sticking to games that only one you has played previously is a change for the worse. We wouldn't have gotten the FFXVI series of podcasts, and I feel the world would be worse for it.
Thanks for the good work you guys do here, and please keep it up.
I could not agree more. I also bought the game and played it for this podcast. And you frontloaded this series with a clearl premise and I think you have done a stellar job with the podcast so far. Especially since this game is frinch made flesh. I would just proceed with the podcast as is. Its fetching amazing!
Well, since you guys asked here's a perspective from someone who just started listening to you guys recently:
TL;DR: (sorry for for my poor self taught English, I make some mistakes, I might not make myself very clear) Keep Book Club Aspect, it has a lot of pros, and almost no cons (for me, the viewer). Just pure reactions for games both of you never played, is not enough, but yes, play games neither of you ever played, however I like to see what I call "marinated reaction", you left those initial thoughts grow out of the "initial" phase, so going through a Thoughtful Conversation is KEY for my personal enjoyment (I can't say that for everyone), so don't let that aspect go either.
I love the book club aspect, because entices people who never played these games to give'em a try, while I didn't do this for the Tactics Ogre series since I beat this game too many times, for Tactics Ogre in specific I am just here for your reactions and thoughts as two new players, seeking new points of view on the story. However, since the End of Neutral Route Episode, I've been listening to your FF6 series while doing a new playthrough of it, mostly for nostalgic reasons, and again, seeing different perspectives, and things I might not even know about on the story of my first FF (and on my Top 3 FFs: 6, 9, 12), and after that series is closed I pretend to start your Xenogears series with the book club aspect at the helm, because I never gave enough time for that game, so I am practically going blind, and having people to essentially "compare notes" and have a serious discussion about what the story of that game is, sounds VERY fun to me, I dunno what to expect, but I assume fun. So this aspect, IT HAS TO REMAIN.
Sorry for the informal bullet points, but I will be taking notes as you mention what needs to be mentioned at the beginning so I can accurately respond:
6:30 It's been very clear since you changed to Resonant Arc that you are about the art of storytelling, not the actual lore. Yeah, it may come into play from time to time. But I've seen the focus has been on how the creators execute the baseline game on the story delivery and its impact and meanings. Some people just dont seem to understand this.
9:40 I completely agree with you. I think one of you needs to have played a game before talking about it. FF16 was a decent experiment, but it just didn't mesh well with what this channel is about. And with this current game, it was kind of the same thing. Yes, you brought in Ivan, but it still didn't work as well. I think the biggest issue is just how complex this game is (mind you, I have never played it, I have only watched your podcast on it). Just like with FF16 though, there is just something off when one of you aren't able to guide the conversation properly within the goal of the podcast. This isn't to bash on Ivan at all as he did an amazing job explaining things.
12:00ish I loved your podcast for years. I haven't found it to be stale at all. I do understand your feelings of wanting to change. You both are people who are looking for constant improvements, and of course that would bleed into your channel. Personally, I wouldn't want any drastic changes, but I am open to your ideas. I love your work, and I'm sure whatever you guys do in the future I will continue to love.
16:40 I love the bookclub format. I like leaving on "cliffhangers."
17:40 This is a tricky one to answer. I love seeing your reactions to the parts. But I also love hearing the deeping analysis into the themes and symbolism that comes from longer exposure. I don't have a good answer. I suppose what you could do is play the game once, keep notes on your reactions, then when it comes to podcast time then you play again and note the symbolism. Then during the podcast you can look back at your notes on what your reactions were to certain parts. It wont be as "raw" and fresh, but at least you can still talk about it.
19:16 I absolutely love your current format of 2 dudes just chatting. It feels so real and natrual. All the long thinking pauses, coughs, everything. It doesn't feel fake or forced or manipulated. I don't fully understand your idea of a "cinematic approach," but I really do love you guys just sitting and talking.
Sorry this was long winded. I really do love your work. I get excited when I see a new video pop up. Even more so that more content is being pushed (like the recent n64 video that was just pure nostalgic bliss). You both do an amazing job. Keep up the awesome work.
As a side note, the poll about Tactics Orge could have used 1 more option. I didn't think it was fully up to par with the usual podcast, but it certainly wasn't a disappointment. I really think it just missed having one of you being able to properly guide the conversations. It was still enjoyable to watch.
1:12:00 One big distinction between Law & Chaos is that on Law you don't actually recruit many characters until late in chapter 3L (perhaps showing how unpopular you are as the Butcher). The majority of characters join after you've been "redeemed" late in Chapter 3L. This makes Donnalto one of your few story characters for much of 2L. They created a ton of dialogue for him that didn't exist in the OG versions of the game. In the OG version he basically doesn't say a word after you recruit him.
Indeed; the only recruits in 2L is Xapan, who is hardly the most morally-upstanding individual; granted, his creepy behaviour towards Catiua in the other path was likely a cover for the fact Vyce was paying him to kill Denam and HE wanted her alive (and we see on his epilogue that he's got goodness too). But compare to 2C, in which you get Arycelle, then Folcurt->Bayin->Cistina who join late that chapter but are allied guests for a whole.
On the flipside, 3C and 3N have a smattering but not quite as many overall (and one or two in each respective Chapter 4 that's not gotten outside that route's version of it); meanwhile, we got 3L to have: Jeunan, Ravness, Vyce, Arycelle (or pre-PSP we had the three generics), Gildas, Mirdyn, and Hobyrim. As well as TWO Ch4 recruits you can't get not only just there but at all outside this path (Ozma and Occione). It really emphasises how only when Denam is trying to atone does he gather allies, and unexpected ones he can't get else wise.
Just an additional suggestion for you to consider for the podcast: it would be awesome if for each podcast (or maybe just the longer ones), you did an episode at the end with more people to discuss the whole experience of whichever game you covered. I thought that final FF16 episode you did with Night Sky Prince, Babyseal and ProfNoctis was a great discussion and the addition of extra voices could really benefit both the analysis and share more appreciation on the games covered. Plus it was just a really fun episode, I bet it would be even better talking about games you highly enjoyed.
That sounds like an interesting premise! But it would need a proper structure to tackle certain topics (limited) and for everyone to have a chance to add something.. depending on how many are invited.
Love that episode and even if I dont enjoy the series I could always watch that last episode as a summary
Do what you guys feel is right, but playing a game that neither of you has played has felt fine to me. I've thoroughly enjoyed this series. Tactics Ogre is just complicated with all the routes and how you interact with all the story beats. I highly doubt the average game you guys will play will be this convoluted in the future. I'll keep watching whichever way you guys choose.
When I hear about the "scripted" ideas it's hard for me to imagine exactly what you have in mind and thus difficult to apply value to it. However, it seems like something you want to do and have interest/passion in filmmaking. I think making your videos the way you enjoy doing has to be the most important thing. If you're making a product that you aren't enjoying then you shouldn't be doing it, or you need to change up something so you do enjoy it. A passionate content creator always makes a better product
Did they said there was no ep this week?
I found you through this series and I'm super into it. Would love to hear your takes on some more thematically dense games, regardless of whether you've previously played them.
@4:17 I sadly agree with the general sentiment..
While entertaining, this hasn't been as enjoyable and insightful (not about the game itself but about you as Players and your experiences with it). I feel like you've fumbled your way through it? And your reactions and background knowledge has felt quite limited(?). I watch for the perspectives, industry information, and context I would have never researched on my own.
I still respect what you've done and what you continue to do! The way Quest 64 was covered made me feel like I was looking at more than people talking about something, and more like immersing myself in that world.
Also, I have to say this has definitely been an entry "up to standard" on what I'd expect! Specially around @1:03:00 about Magus Garba and his dialogues with Denam.
It's noticeable what you can add when you have your feet properly cemented into the story! But THIS is such a specific case scenario (because of the game), that any suggestions or opinions might not be applicable to future series.
@@pastor8647 Indeed; they might not have noticed that the twin brother, Orba was a Chapter 1 boss (or that their father according to the Warren Report was the architect who designed the Hanging Gardens), but the analysis of his whole dialogue with Denam was, well... *chef's kiss*
Lol yaaa knowww at least the sony device gives you something. Even its just a ding and an icon. I found the elemental temples. Ooph and im doing this on the Nintendo device and im 6 playing days in and doing it and not getting a silly icon is exhausting.
I love the book club format. 😢
Tactics ogre is so tough to get that I don’t want you guys to think that negative feedback is just your fault. So much is missable and trying to get it all together in a first playthrough is an insane undertaking. I’m glad that one of you having played the game will be coming back since I feel that’s what leads to the strongest analysis and can help avoid it becoming a speculation podcast. I don’t think the third person was a bad idea but for something like this it’s just hard to get it all covered.
Doing a new format is fine by me. If you feel a game could be better covered in a different way then you should try it. As long as the analysis is there I’ll be there.
Also thank you for not being a story recap/lore podcast lol.
I actually loved that neither of you had played the game before. In previous one when one or the other started to speculate, the other had to stay their thoughts for the fear of spoiling. This way the back and forth flows more naturally and gives place to a lot more of insight.
Just a humble opinion. You guys do a great job regardless, its just that i believe both things are cool in their own way and its a shame to axe one just because a couple of apples dont meet their expectations in the podcast.
Keep up the good job 👍
I agree, I’ve been enjoying this series and also enjoyed their FF16 podcast, personally. Obviously by the end of that one, they weren’t fans of the game, but that’s part of playing, and they still did an excellent job explaining why and even brought on others for a discussion I really enjoyed listening to after. Now, would I be happy to force them to continue to play a game they clearly don’t want to continue, no. But blind playthroughs and getting their raw feelings and hypothesis of what may happen next and why…to me that’s exciting. And then the last episode they can go and check interviews and read what the devs were trying to convey and see if those same things truly came across during their time with the game. Sometimes it can work out, sometimes it can’t, but bumbling your way through it is all part of it as well imo. It’s what we all do, especially when the game is new to us. Obviously they’re not going to get through everything in that, but like with Tactics Ogre here, there’s a lot of stuff you miss even after multiple playthroughs, but having a deeper discussion after can point out some of those other things and can maybe have them thinking of playing through again, or looking at things differently.
Yes.
Hi, I don't normally comment or talk to anyone about the show. I just listen to the podcast on the side. I'm not really sure what the discourse is about this specific format and what prompted the intro. I thought I should comment though and say that Tactics Ogre is a uniquely difficult game to narrate through, between the complexity of the text and the nonlinear nature of its routes. It sounds like you guys have taken some criticism to heart that makes you think you need to change, when really the issue is that you walked into a perfect storm. There's a reason there are people who are uniquely dedicated to this game - it requires that kind of attention. I say this as someone who absolutely loves Tactics Ogre and considers this game among my top 15 or so greatest games of all time. Trying to follow this game's narrative while also making it understandable to newcomers is just an impossible journey. I don't have strong feelings about changes or whatnot but I don't think you should take lessons from a monster game like this. Maybe don't do games with such a nonlinear format where you have to make specific choices to experience a proper narrative? Anyway, keep doing what you do. You do a good job.
I haven't had any issues whatsoever with the way Tactics Ogre has been handled and have enjoyed it as I have any of your other games covered.
In general listening to either your podcast or other ones covering video games, tv shows, books, etc... I do tend to find the best ones are those where one has already experienced it and the other hasn't. That way we get the dynamic of someone who is more of an expert on it as well as the newbie which gives more of that "experiencing for the first time" feeling. I think this is a draw for a lot of people. That said, I don't think unnecessary sacrifices are needed to fit exactly to this. I'll use Xenosaga as the example (simply because episodes 2 & 3 are the things I most want to see covered by you). If you were to either say you'll never cover episodes 2 and 3 because neither of you have played it, wait several years to cover them, or have to rush through playing it in order to get it covered I'd prefer none of those and you simply do what you did for episode 1, both go through it for the first time while having TJ or another expert also participate with you.
As for the overall format, I love the book club format exactly as it is and wouldn't change it at all.
maybe i'm in the minority, but i appreciate the raw reaction the most even if you get parts "wrong". I've really enjoyed seeing you both react to the game without prior knowledge.
Personally I was so starved for a quality discussion on the narrative of Tactics Ogre that this series was a Godsend. If you played through it blind even better as I could see your reaction to the games first choice and I loved your discussion afterwards. I really appreciate your commentary and glad you did this series the way you did. I do understand where those fans are coming from though when you change something drastically a lot of the people who came for style A may not be receptive to style B. It’s like when a UA-cam channel changes its focus you may gain new fans but loose the old ones. I’d advise a balanced approach a compromise if you will that blends the two together. Just know you can never please all sides ultimately you know your channel and your audience better than me so I will pray for your continued success!!
I feel a lot of different ways about this. On one hand there are some small things that could be changed that would most definitely made a difference, but at the same time I'm not sure they are worth discussing at this point. I say this, cause I feel like the issues that came up during the Tactics Ogre podcast are unique to this game in particular, and I honestly doubt they would ever come up in any other game. It's just a gargantuan game in story and gameplay and while someone experienced can help synthesize it for you, it's just very difficult, there's just too much everywhere. It's fanbase is by nature "hardcore" and small in numbers due to this, so it would be difficult to have them entirely satisfied and even if that were to happen the reward, audience-wise would be small as well.
But at the same time if I have to pick between this and nothing, I would definitely pick this. I am very happy to see one of my favorite games be featured here at all.
I don't think you guys have done anything wrong with the Tactics Ogre series, but if there were any criticism to be had, I would claim it's likely just covering it to begin with. I say this as a big Tactics Ogre fan - this game is just very convoluted with its differing routes, and I believe tends to be revered more for its lore/gameplay/scope/breadth of characters rather than tightly woven centralized story. I've played 3 versions of this game for easily 300+ hours and couldn't even recall who the hell is in which faction or what everyone is even fighting for. Tartaros is such a confusing villan/antihero in this game and just fell flat for me, but man is the gameplay amazing. I personally think your very best episodes have been covering games with a highly focused central story, and a bonus if the game has a lot of open-ended theories or requires expert-level interpretation to squeeze out the fullest enjoyment of the title. My favorite games you've done a series on are Silent Hill 2, Xenogears, and Vagrant Story. I feel like in each of these games I learned a ton from you guys, even though I've played them multiple times. You basically have the foremost authoritative podcasts on these games since it's so incredibly well-analyzed. I think you'll have a ton of engagement with any format you choose to present personally, as long as (1) Mike and Casen both continue to be in the episodes and have at least SOME element of conversation since your deep friendship adds a ton to the show and is frankly rare in youtube podcasts, and (2) games are covered that have either a strong central story theme, and/or mystery/interpretative elements, and/or have big thematic or symbolistic elements, etc. Maybe covering games outside of this scope should eschew the book club format and be covered in a different way. Last note - this might be unpopular but I personally don't care much about the development history of games, though I fully understand it frames the discussion and often elucidates themes or gives clues into any odd parts of games. If I had it my way though, I'd just shorten that to about half the length to only cover the big points, and fill that time at the back end with more viewer questions/comments to be addressed. Totally get if that isn't popular though, and in the end who care about my opinion because I'll watch you gents either way!
I think most of the characters stay consistent between routs.
Ronwey and Leonar are the same people with the same choices, the only difference is the consequences and thus how they react. Ronwey in particular gets bamboozled by everyone in one timeline or another. About the only person who doesn't kick his ass is Catiua.
Catiua looks for every reason to leave, and otherwise stews in her own issues, so what she actually does stays relatively constant. She's only kinda weird when everyone else is dead and she has to be the good guy talking about Cerya.
But Vyce? I think they just didn't play up enough of his own fears pre-Balmamusa. He's got anger, fears, insecurities, and a grand bag of spite, and he shows them all in different ways for each route. I think it's important to note that Vyce does a damn good job in the Law route rallying people while Denam spent most of the time running away. And it still goes wrong because he doesn't have as much control over his people as he wants to.
Personally I think it is more of a result of the game. I don't thinking having a third person who played it on to help was a bad idea but covering Tactics Ogre in this format would of always been hard to do and as much as i love the game it wasn't an ideal choice for this format. It could be worthwhile having options depending on the game if you should do a completed run first or not.
I don't think it's necessary that one of you has played the game. I think Tactics Ogre, in particular, just wasn't a good fit for your format with the alternate routes and missable characters dialogue, so needing someone to tell you which routes and decisions to choose sort of sullies the enjoyment for you. But a game like Xenosaga Episode 2 I imagine would go much better because it's a more straightforward game, not to mention for this game in particular, you guys have experienced Xenogears, so you understand a lot of the themes and ideas behind the scenes.
This is my first time watching the podcast maybe because I love the game and was pulled in from there but I really enjoyed hearing your opinions, and philosophical discussions.
I also liked the fact that you both hadn’t played it so your perspective each week was fresh.
I didn’t like that you were having key story moments spoiled in advance and being curated a play through for the sake of efficiency and not for your game enjoyment.
I’m not against getting an expert player to come in and give advice on game mechanics and telling you that there is missable content and advising you on best practices like checking Warren report.
I think you both would have gone through Chaos route naturally like me and would have enjoyed your first play through more.
I have no problem with the podcast as such, I just disagree with a lot of your takes on the characters. I don't have the hard details to argue whether Leonar is logically compatible between routes, but Vyce definitely is, like many others have pointed out. I also think so much of the BEAUTY of the game comes from how different sides of people are revealed in different routes. I don't disagree with your take on Leonar in the previous route if you look at it in isolation, but I disagree with concluding so harshly about his character and the general writing of the game so early. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree. Love the podcast!!
I don't think the analysis has been worse, but I have been finding it hard to pay attention and follow, perhaps the game is just to dense and intricate
I think for a game like this, one in where multiple play throughs are need to experience the full story of the game, it might have been better if one of you had played the game before. But I’m not sure if it’s necessary for all future video games that you guys cover, as to me, I think what you did for Final Fantasy 16 that came out a few months ago was on par with everything else that you have done.
Your strawpoll "How have you felt about the Tactics Ogre podcast series?" lacks nuance and/or a way to describe why this series was disappointing or not, so I felt like it might be a good idea to throw my two cents in on why people might have not enjoyed this series as much as previous podcasts:
1) I don't think it's helpful for neither person to have experience with a story when discussing that story, it's better if at least one person has enough familiarity to actually recognize when the story is setting up concepts or events that are delivered later. I don't think one person playing the game for the first time is necessary, but it's a nice bonus when it happens. I'd be interested in seeing a series where Casen is more familiar with a work and Mike is experiencing it for the first time, but I can understand why that is less likely than the inverse.
2) I don't think it was good to have somebody tell you "go through the game in this order" rather than playing through the game and making your own choices, which unfortunately also means the bookclub format kind of fails for a game like Tactics Ogre.
3) I personally dislike almost every podcast episode that includes other people besides Mike and Casen; I think they'd be good as additional bonus episodes but it shouldn't be part of the main sequence of podcasts for any game. I've tried to introduce Resonant Arc to some friends via the Xenogears podcast series, but the inclusion of other members of the community rather than focusing on Mike and Casen's analysis seems to put most people off, and I think Tactics Ogre suffered from a similar issue by having Ivan present for most of the series. That being said, I think responding to the patreon/discord viewers is generally excellent and offers all the benefit of "third party voice" or "existing community perspective" that I would assume is the point of bringing guests onto the podcast.
Just rambling thoughs , its totally normal for me that the characters are different in different routes because people are changed by events and are even more different because a character is most characterized by his relations and thoses change when crucial decisions are made. Its also ok (and good imo) to miss stuff to have grey area so what I don't get Leonard ? I can't get in the head of my fellow I have to go with what the say and people lie. I don't believe this goes against the themes of the game. I hope this does'nt need to be said but I really like your discussions I think you don't need to change much at all, change so you are comfortable its your show.
I went ahead and voted before you really explained all the options.
I really don't mind the idea of you guys inserting more prescripted stuff. Perhaps you would have gotten different results in that poll if you had more explicitly listed it among the rankable options.
Polling is an incredibly difficult science so take it all with a grain of salt
Full agree on not comparing routes to eachother in order to derive understanding or enjoyment from them. That's part of my frustration towards criticism toward the Neutral route, because much of its perceived failings are from direct comparisons of what's happening in Law or Chaos. I have absolutely no qualms with people who consider Neutral the weakest route on its own merits after playing all 3; my issue is with people who consider it the weakest because it wasn't Law or Chaos. This game's a bit awkward in telling these three similar, separate stories in that way.
I wonder if you two have any thoughts about the conceit around using the Wheel to hop around "timelines" and how thematically canonized one should consider this framing? I personally never gave any weight whatsoever to the "Coda" episodes, considering them pure "what if" scenarios, but I wonder if there's any way to thematically thread the needle via the Wheel between all 3 routes, or if that just lands purely in the realm of headcanon.
Since you fellas have that big discussion about how people reacted to your experiencing TO, I feel the need to put my own feelings forward: in a way, like Ravness of Denam, I feel I expected too much from you regarding the story and everything. I didn’t think you’d feel like Vyce was a plot device - maybe inconsistent at first, but I thought he’d click into place so to speak. I hadn’t expected you to think the big divergence point was implausible, as for me it was intriguing to consider “why would Denam do/not do this?” and made me reevaluate his layers. Heck, I thought that Leonar is a character who reacts very believably to the different scenarios here: he reluctantly follows Ronway with Balmamusa in hopes that this evil will preserve the Walister people, and how things play out really affects his own decisions… but he’s always got the same goal if different ways to get there (and if the fourth branch hadn’t been pruned due to SNES limitations, who can say what else we could have seen of him?)
Like Ravness, we must trust our own judgement. Mine is that your analysis has been extremely intriguing to me, and you even made me appreciate the Assassination ending far more than I previously did… But I still like what I do, and I appreciate how you guys gave me a new perspective even if I didn’t agree with everything you said (Gildora isn’t a bad person? Ehhh…) It’s especially good to see how you felt differently about the route split after taking some stock of certain things.
For what it’s worth, since the game can reach Princess ending regardless of route (and it’s likely where future OB stories would have worked in) I’m reserving judgement on which path would be truly “canon”; unless we see incontrovertible proof about who is alive in future that cannot be on other paths (Vyce, all the Phoraena sisters, Ravness, which of Nybeth’s children might be alive…) The fact that CODA also doesn’t require Vyce or Ozma alive in the TIMELINE (just from one timeline and brought into it) just adds to this, as does Coda being its own timeline of disputed canonicity to the bigger narrative.
Wait... when did either of us say Gildora wasn't a bad person?
@@michaelcoraybrown I'll give you that; in hindsight I was misinterpreting what you'd said, and I apologise. I took you saying that "Gildora is misguided, Xaebos is truly evil" to imply that you saying she isn't bad; that was my fault...
In my mild defence, interpreting a character as good or bad is murky especially in a story that thrives in the grey; Gildora being yet another "lost causer" doesn't make her less evil that Xaebos to me, her intent is still genocide. While you might not find Hektor sympathetic based on his Chaos or Neutral portrayals (yet to see how you saw his actions in Law), he's not what I'd call an evil PERSON... but he does commit evil ACTIONS, knowingly, by virtue of putting his archaic sense of honour (which like it or not is pretty standard for the society depicted) above doing what he finds morally-conscionable.
So too, does Leonar commit evil knowingly; I think that's why I don't see a dissonance between his different actions between routes, because ultimately I see consistency in his actions. To wit: he's repulsed by Ronway's plan to butcher their own people, civilians at that, as a gambit to frame Balbatos, weakening support for his regime while strengthening their ranks; he ultimately does it though, because he can't see a surer way forward. If the plan succeeds (Chaos/Neutral) they crush the Galgastani ranks at Psonji Weald and march on Coritanae, capture Balbatos and have him executed; incidentally, subtext here explains why you only saw Gatialo on Law-route, because instead of being wounded in a battle that his forces more-or-less won... he dies offscreen at Psonji, instead of pushing them back to Almorica and taking grievous but survivable injuries.
But I digress; while they win Coritanae and the Galgastani army has to regroup, Rhime falls to the Bakram/Dark Knight attack and that's when he offers Denam to rejoin them. On Neutral, Denam does rejoin and the Walister are stronger; Leonar doesn't betray Ronway here BECAUSE the Duke only planned to feign an alliance with the Dark Knights, so he still believes in him. On Chaos, he derides Denam's idealism... but Ronway intends to sell out to Loslorien in order to gain control; this drives Leonar to set things up so that Denam can eliminate the Duke's loyalists (Modilliani and Marino leading two forces you fight) and then goads Denam into slaying him so that he can take over for him and stop Ronway (who in both routes is killed by Vyce).
On Law however, where Vyce exposes the truth before the lie can really set in, things are more dire; Leonar nonetheless tries to follow the Duke, despite his advice being ignored and things going badly, up until Ronway decides to appeal to the Dark Knights for aid against Galgastan. So like in Chaos, this is where in Law he loses his faith in Ronway and... well, you know the rest. But that's why I stand by him being consistent (always doing what he feels is necessary for his people), FAR more than I would argue Vyce (while I do think his Neutral/Chaos paths are quite close and I don't see him having different ways to die, or even how he's characterised, as inconsistent I can at least see the issues with Law for you guys)...
Sorry about the rant; I mean to go in-depth about my thoughts but my time management is s*it... Just because I have disagreements with some of your takes doesn't mean I don't respect you guys. Like, when you talked about Denam breaking his promise to Catiua... that's such an interesting bit because he technically followed the WORD of the promise -- they'll leave Valeria if their army lost AND they lost Almorica; the former was true but not the later. So in his mind, the criteria was still there... but he broke the SPIRIT of the promise, and that's what Catiua wanted; while she probably would still have gotten frustrated even if Arycelle had just lied fully and they'd actually won (because she's still worried for Denam and caught up in her own insecurities), in practice the outcome is telling here. And I can see why Denam doesn't THINK he's been abandoning his sister, but she still feels he's increasingly neglecting her; good intentions, bad execution.And I credit you for expanding my perspective there.
Too few options in the 2 poll. Also: please play Xenosaga 2. Have a nice day.
Yeah...its best not to compare it all route and take the route your enjoy
if u feel like u want to complete dialogue or feel somethin missin you can take other route as new game plus..
i really like it because not all games grant this choice back then 1995...
I’d be pretty useless to ask on feedback. I enjoy the output regardless, even if it’s on games I’ve not played or will likely never play. Too many games, too little time and to be honest, too little energy. Getting old is a real pain in the ass.
I’ll fill in your polls tho. Hope it helps. I’ve probably got the worst suggestion tho; play more obscure games!
Like, play some SEGA Saturn games. That’ll bring in the hip youngsters, appeasing old timers like me. Would love to hear your opinions on the Panzer Dragoon games. Not just the RPG, but all four games. It’s such a rich, symbolic world
Great points, everyone!
I really like how Casen used 9/11 and the history of false flag operations to make sense of Balmamusa, and how Mike read Denam as essentially a seventeen-year old who is way over his head in this conflict.
And I think this is a main draw of the podcast for me: how Mike and Casen are able to use real life analogies to further concretize plot points in the games that are being covered, add additional color to the psychology of Denam and co., (using a consequentialist ethos as a coping mechanism with his own guilt), and get the player to leave with a deeper and more affective sense of the themes that the creatives are hoping to get at with their game.
There are some hidden scenes in this route you can only see in the Warren report.
One about Cerya's fate, since you never go help the liberation front, she is captured by the dark knights.
The other interesting one is what happens with Ozma if you bring Hobrym to the fight, but don't recruit her.
I don’t really think the podcast has a issue with the format
Whether or not I've played the game, I listen to the podcast independently of it. Maybe I should start the FF X series before I get too far into the game.
Maybe a multiple selection poll would help.
I feel its important to note this game(1995) and Final Fantasy Tactics (1997) came out before Metal Gear Solid (1998). Now it's not like there aren't other profound games to be found on Snes and early ps1, but in terms of the topics these games grapple with and how they grapple them it's really quite impressive.
I'm still on Neutral chapter 4. Is this the last episode of them talking about Tactics Ogre?
I have not yet finished and am not positive, but it sounds like there may be at least one law chapter 4 episode followed by at least one episode with tactics ogre content creators
No, there will be 11 episodes.
Ok now tackle 13 sentinels aegis rim
I dont know, man. I love the podcast the way it is. Specially when its just you two. If anything you should be less afraid of saying exactly what you think.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the way you guys do it nobody’s gonna be 100% happy I think it’s smart to bring on somebody that is an expert on a game who knows the game in and out who’s played it every which way you can and I think anybody that complains about it you know that’s tough. You’re gonna have to get over it, I think you guys are doing a great job as it is
Not sure if you guys will see this, but I don't think the problem was you guys both being blind to TO, I think maybe an issue people have been having is that you guys were treating al three routes as, not necessarily canon but thinking that characters should have the same personality and reactions across all three routes.
And, as for not covering every bit of story as a whole makes sense. But if your favorite bit gets glossed over that can be a little disappointing. But I saw your ff13 series of videos years and years ago, and then came back when you posted the ff8 series, but I've been a huge fan since then.
I dont think the format is inherently bad but i think tactics ogre eas a bad matchup its like trying to do a book club on a choose your own adventure book and trying to cover every possible path.
I am legit sad.... I finally found a strategy game I love as much as FFT and then I get to that Xabos?Hektor? Fight.... I have been stuck for months
I really like the fact that you try to go through Tactics Ogre, given that, as you experience, it's a pretty messy game to cover. I think it would've been better had one of you played the game beforehand though.
I found your critique of things like Vyce's character and various inconsistencies between the routes legitimate but I think you spent way too much time on it and it seemed like you were just ranting at some points. It would've been better if you had just accepted the fact that some aspects are incoherent at some point and went on to cover the other interesting aspects of the game.
Gonna be honest. I dont think book club format works in media with choices. Everyone's going to want to make different choices, and if you are "forcing" people down a choice to follow the podcast very closely, it robs them of the benefit of making that choice for themselves. I like book club format with linear games with 1 storyline, but for branching stories, its just a bit off. For this reson I just didn't enjoy this series as much as others or as much as I expected to. Looks like I'm in the minority based on the poll results though.
I think it could be very interesting to do a game in this format with choices. There are games that go down a similar story direction, only diverging at the end due to the choice. I think Mike and Casen arguing for the choices that they are putting forward could be interesting too.
@michs7451 fair point. I think it could be definitely be very interesting, especially if they differ on their choices! But what if I selected a different choice on my playthrough, and its the choice I feel is best but they dont pick it? How am I going to follow along in book club format?
I guess it might be a personal thing but the appeal of choice is I get to see the story flow in the direction of my personal choosing. I dont like the idea of picking every choice just to follow along the podcast. Maybe its more of a personal issue on my end. But i feel being told what to pick from a third party defeats the reason these choices exists. Otherwise I prefer the game go the nier automata route, where there are multiple paths that unlock to you as you finish another one, in a set order without player choice involved.
My critique is strictly from a book club format perspective. If it wasnt book club format, Id take no issue with analyzing all the story paths and comparing and contrasting. There is easily plenty of amazing and deep discussion coming out of that.
@@EdreesesPieces I think how one could plausibly do it in a book club format is to have three separate sections / videos on the choices.
I think this way works better personally for me, as compared to the Nier Automata route. I think one aspect of games that I really love is the element of player engagement / agency, and I think it's still possible to analyze these games from a book club format. There are certain ideas and philosophies that are put forward in Law / Neutral / Chaos, for example, and the book club format could examine those and flesh out further what these concepts actually mean.
Hey guys, my favorite podcasts and playthroughs of games I have had so far have been Xenogears(3rd time I played), and Outer Wilds(played for the first time). I enjoyed them for different reasons and im sure thats not super helpful, but playing along with the hosts has been a blast.
I think the expert thing can work. I really enjoyed TJ on the Xenosaga podcasts. And people complaining so hard about Ivan are over exaggerating.
No, you guys simping for him are exaggerating
@@lawrenceragnarok1186 I’m not simping for him. If we are comparing him to TJ then TJ was superior in basically every way. Just for me Ivan wasn’t some crazy detriment to the podcast that was ruining everything like some people in the comments are making him out to be.
@@derrickpanciera5644 you can call it what you want but he was objectively a bad edition to the podcast.
@@lawrenceragnarok1186 I don’t think you know what objectively means.
I think people really love the dynamic just between the two hosts and any addition to that feels invasive. But it also cannot be underestimated that certain games with a greater range of topics requires someone who's capable of touching on those when the two miss something greater in the narrative per session.
Maybe they should have a third party researcher who can research the whole game ahead of them and then provide cliffnotes that keep information within those chosen sections. The topics then would contain a big focus on in game choices along with any specific dialogue or noteworthy events along with how they can pan out in later episodes. Dialogue is usually the most keen part of an rpg so that should cover the biggest issue whenever they miss something that would irk viewers. Maybe if they want to go the extra mile have the third party also keep a playlist ready of noteworthy missable cutscenes (Hopefully cut so they do not drag on too long).
They've done something similar in the past but having a more dedicated researcher would probably do more for adapting to their own process of portraying that information. Their call either way. I personally rather liked Ivan because he at least added a devils advocate position for some choices the other two were quick to denounce. It's just that any third addition in conversation really gambles with that formula a good amount of viewers have grown attached to.
Final Fantasy Tactics Ogre Battle Story
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